Mini Normal 1951 [Game Over]


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Post Post #2525 (ISO) » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:46 pm

Post by Lil Uzi Vert »

In post 2523, Tchill13 wrote:
In post 2502, Apple Jack wrote:Idk about mu but here townies are downgrading their town meta so they can play better as scum.
i've seen this post from diffferent ppl.

my first thought is if you don't try your hardset to win every game as either alignment you shouldn't be playing. I would think both games would develop in a similar manner. If i am getting better at scum hunting I should in turn learn what not to do as scum.

because you throw this in with unexperienced players (such as myself) that are really trying and see scummy play from other townies doing this "holding back" it will lead to a lot of losses on lack of effort.

i think a player named vedith made the most sense on this topic. The only ppl trying to look towny are scum. As town You don't win by looking towny you win by lynching scum, scum hunting. So when a player comes off as just looking towny because he's "holding back" i'm gonna be willing to lynch him almost every time.

As scum you just have to "scum hunt" but it has to make sense, from my understanding at least. Most players that i've seen that I consider "bad" as scum is ppl that just try to look towny, or ppl that don't make near as much sense as scum "scum hunting" compared to when they're town. So they dumb down their reasoning as town and their scum game benefits.

So when ppl are "holding back" to benefit their scum game I'd almost consider it game thrwoing. What can you do though?

i just hate that ppl do this. Someone commented in one of my early games that my town game would benefit my scum game through play style alone. I didn't intend that and i try just as hard as both i've just found a play style i believe is sufficient as both alignments which was totally by just playing the game and unintentional. Of course i've only played for a few months and ik i have a lot to learn

this is just an issue that's been bothering me which resulted in the longish post.
As someone who has been accused of doing so, I think it comes from a belief and expectation that the accused can play better as town and even has.
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Post Post #2526 (ISO) » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:48 pm

Post by Boonskiies »

People who do that can often abuse that anyways. My town game is much stronger than my scum game, but people think I do that too.
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Post Post #2527 (ISO) » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:50 pm

Post by Tchill13 »

In post 2524, Mulch wrote:Hi teech
sup mulch?
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Post Post #2528 (ISO) » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:57 pm

Post by Alisae »

I have both somewhat strong scum and town games so...
GTKAS
| here.
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Post Post #2529 (ISO) » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:27 am

Post by Mulch »

In post 2528, Alisae wrote:I have both somewhat strong scum and town games so...
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Post Post #2530 (ISO) » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:48 am

Post by Apple Jack »

I can get easily town read as town and can usually do the same as scum. I just have trouble telling the difference between scum and scummy townies.
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Post Post #2531 (ISO) » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:02 am

Post by Sergtacos »

damn, we lost.
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Post Post #2532 (ISO) » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:44 am

Post by UC Voyager »

In post 2531, Sergtacos wrote:damn, we lost.
Yea....
so...i don't get enough sleep
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Post Post #2533 (ISO) » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:21 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 2469, Apple Jack wrote:
In post 2466, acidphoenix wrote:disclaimer if you play turbos:

not everyone in the turbo will be trying
play at your own risk
That could be said about almost every single game on this site
Stork wrote:
1.
Image

2.
Image

3.
Image

:y:
:P

Now THAT was a turbo game for the record books :lol:
http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/thr ... -vig-party ftr :P

still beyond amazed that I somehow logged the W on that one
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
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Post Post #2534 (ISO) » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:33 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

Smith inserts commentary becaues what else is new :P
In post 2509, mastina wrote:
In post 2505, Toranaga wrote:jailkeeper can be conf town and implicate scum
watcher can be conf town and implicate scum
Both of these are wrong.
Jailkeeper is not a role which is ever conftown this game--least of all, because of the commuter. The commuter introduces the level of doubt as to the source of any failed nightkill. Furthermore, the jailkeeper can falsely clear scum or falsely be framed as scum via the strongman.
Yeah the strongman is a substantial nerf to the jailkeeper

Watcher might implicate scum, but the most obvious choice it fails on (no watching the innocent child), and it is also not a role immune to being thought of as scum.
Agreed. Here it's materially worse than, say, a cop. And ascetic IC claims are kind of unusual IMO? Maybe the IC claims ascetic and not IC or something early?
commuter and JK can negate the wolves NK...
Exactly! There is an ambiguity involved. That's a NERF, not a boost. There's a reason that jailkeeper-bulletproof is one of the worse newbie setups. Newbies simply have no clue what the source of the failed kill is and thus no idea what to make of it. Same principle.
Disagree. The more potential sources for a stopped kill, the better. It's less important that kills be stopped than that there be additional avenues to stop kills. THAT SAID, this along with a gated vig introduces a shit-ton of wackiness at night. Unless the scum kill is stopped and a wolf dies at night, of course ;)

Also in newbies, jk/bp/rb has high scum win rate because roleblocker kicks the crap out of jailkeeper, and because a jailkeeper flip can implicate a bp claim should said claim happen late (that's one of the reasons early BP claiming was popuarized in the first place). jk/bp/rb is SUPER dependent on the roleblocker dying early, and town more or less doesn't get shit in terms of power utility before that happens. In a micro, Jailkeeper is very strong against goons, very weak against a roleblocker.
inno child, jailkeeper and watcher are not roles that are supposed to endgame as town and wolves need to get rid of the last 2 100%
The innocent child could be killed without consequence at any time. No watch. No track. No jailkeep. No nothing. The ascetic was there for good reason. Jailkeeper is a role which is only conditionally powerful, in particular, if there's only one scum left. Before then, it is virtually worthless because its ability to stop death is incredibly limited (especially with the strongman).
Agreed on jailkeeper nerf

The one and only role which did have that need for death would be the watcher. The watcher was the strongest town role in this game, hands down, no questions asked...yet it was just about the ONLY significantly strong role town could make great use of. Again, role synergy or rather the lack thereof is a thing. Innocent child is strong on its own. Vig is strong on its own. Jailkeeper can be strong on its own. Watcher is strong on its own. Commuter is
okay
but not really strong. But with all the gates on them, and put together. You're left with a town where they don't have good odds of actually producing useful information. The jailkeeper is likely to be borderline negative utility for the town (blocking key town roles from performing actions, not stopping scum). The vig is disproportionately likely to hit town. The IC is likely to get promptly killed off, and if they fail to claim the ascetic, likely cause town to waste a jailkeep and/or watch attempting to save someone who can't be saved.
I think I largely agree

And so on and so forth.
all mafia had was checking TWICE if a player was a PR (which ofc can give mafia a nice little claim to go deep) and a non consecutive strongman to counter jailkeeper.
"All mafia had was this role which was a ridiculously good safeclaim yet which gave them info they desperately needed plus a role which shut down one of the roles I am griping about". Yeah seems about right!
town had 6 power roles (!) with 4 possibly or always conf town themselves in a 13er.
Not six. Five. Neighborizer is considered net-zero, net-null, absolutely worthless zero value for town. It is not factored into balance at all.
ehhh... neighbor is a zero on the utility scale. neighborizer is something that can be tracked and verified, and is SLIIIIIIIGHTLY more powerful than zero, if nothing else to prove that it exists, to verify jailkeeper (for blocking), watcher (for results), etc
I think even as a poor PR role, I might take issue with that. OTOH I generally take issue with >5 PRs in a 10/3 mini normal game so *shrugs*

And scum had two decent/strong PRs of their own.
Strongman is the strongest scum role in existence, possible exception roleblocker but even then strongman likely wins out in terms of disproportionately damaging the town.
Neapolitan is effectively a rolecop, except one which was designed to mirror town roles (town roles were 2x this game, so too was the neapolitan to match the town roles) and give scum a safeclaim which fit well within the setup. (Because town lacked any real investigative power, a neapolitan would make sense as town because neapolitans are cop-lites.)

Two scum power roles.
Versus effectively five town power roles.
Six town PRs but yeah

Given that normal balance standards for a 10-3 game would be 7-3-3 (or 6-4-3) VT-PR-scum, this is right in the zone.
Add two extra town roles, and you add in two scum roles. Equivalent exchange.

Is it how I would design a game, no. Is that level of swing in a game something I would prefer, also no. But it is definitively still
balanced
, because scum and town have equal odds at winning.
I'd lean a bit on it being townsided compared to standard, but I wouldn't say it's out of the reasonable range for mini normals.

And wolves usually win 10/3 mini normals anyway so *shrugs*

I'd probably have fought the setup in review and then grudgingly accepted it or somethign close to it, while probably bitching all the way about having six town PRs :P
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #2535 (ISO) » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:34 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 2530, Apple Jack wrote:I can get easily town read as town and can usually do the same as scum. I just have trouble telling the difference between scum and scummy townies.
FWIW, while I don't really know you personally well enough to say anything there, the big thing that MOST people find is that it's hard to separate between BAD and SCUMMY.

Lots of people do things that are BAD as town, the key is if it's sincere or fake.

See the old mega smith IC post :P
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #2536 (ISO) » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:36 pm

Post by Apple Jack »

who is mega smith?
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Post Post #2537 (ISO) » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:41 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

smith's mega IC post
viewtopic.php?p=9341829#p9341829

see Bad Posting vs Scum Posting section
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #2538 (ISO) » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:47 pm

Post by Apple Jack »

i got distracted by d1 scum hunting. Saving this and going to take time to really read it. Hopefully it takes hold in my mind.
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Post Post #2539 (ISO) » Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:04 am

Post by Nexus »

To nominate this game and any players or mods in it, please see the Scummies nomination thread.
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