Mini Normal 1951 [Game Over]

acidphoenix
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Post Post #2475  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:35 pm

mu normal games are 36 hour days lol

hard to follow happens but is a only-sign-up-if-you-have-the-time thing

Michael22Omega
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Post Post #2476  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:35 pm

Acid
The thing is
You learn faster if you play turbos
Trying to learn by real game take weeks, you won't become best from 1 game

UC Voyager wrote:Meh

Longer days is better for town

nope

acidphoenix
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Post Post #2477  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:36 pm

well yeah

that wasn't a saying "turbos are a bad idea"

that was me saying "if you're going to rage at people not giving a shit BE WARNED IT'S GONNA HAPPEN"

Michael22Omega
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Post Post #2478  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:36 pm

And Acid
You need to town read me right one time
To say you scum read me right
Because you literally scum read me every game
You don't even give a reason it's like your insta vote

Derpy Hooves
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Post Post #2479  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:36 pm

In post 2475, acidphoenix wrote:mu normal games are 36 hour days lol

hard to follow happens but is a only-sign-up-if-you-have-the-time thing

I joined a while ago but seemed like I could never get into a game. Not many in signups
I love MUFFINS!!!

acidphoenix
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Post Post #2480  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:36 pm

In post 2478, Michael22Omega wrote:And Acid
You need to town read me right one time
To say you scum read me right
Because you literally scum read me every game
You don't even give a reason it's like your insta vote

shhhh

Michael22Omega
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Post Post #2481  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:37 pm

In post 2479, Derpy Hooves wrote:
In post 2475, acidphoenix wrote:mu normal games are 36 hour days lol

hard to follow happens but is a only-sign-up-if-you-have-the-time thing

I joined a while ago but seemed like I could never get into a game. Not many in signups

You need to join a mention list and than you'll be mentioned when turbos happen

acidphoenix
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Post Post #2482  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:37 pm

although

what games have we actually played where you were town

that turbo recently
what lese

Derpy Hooves
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Post Post #2483  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:38 pm

I don’t want turbo. I want a normal game
I love MUFFINS!!!

Alisae
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Post Post #2484  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:38 pm

I won some pretty derpy scumgames in turbos
I play the yugioh TCG now.
Feel free to approach me on discord: Alisae#3438
I wanna get to know an Alisae! Part 1 | Part 2

acidphoenix
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Post Post #2485  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:39 pm

also i don't usually tunnel you i just leave you hanging as a high scumread all game iirc?

acidphoenix
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Post Post #2486  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:39 pm

also me calling you this game woulda been in significant part alisheep

mastina
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Post Post #2487  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:49 pm

In post 2406, reaverb wrote:Curious how you think Town should play with mechanics/claiming.
Depends on what you mean exactly. Town should truthfully claim when it is pertinent to do so. Mechanics-wise, the game was swingy, but balanced as could be. The mafia were never in a position where role-wise they held a superior advantage (the only reason they held that was play, in that competent scum + incompetent town = obvious result), nor did the town have a position where role-wise they would have held a superior advantage.

The game had a lot of possible outcomes, yet town and scum stood equal chances of winning. Scum didn't have counters to every town power role. In fact, the town power could fuck them over easily. (Watcher catching strongman, strongman failing to kill the commuter.) The town had significant help. The scum had just enough power to mitigate that. It overall from a balance perspective worked out to be loosely, when you counteract one side's extras with the others, to the formula all games adhere to:
Town having some base power when the scum have none. Then, simply making equivalent exchanges when adding to both sides. (Extra town power meant scum getting power, and/or scum getting power meant town got extra power.)

It's personally not my favorite type of setup. The more roles you introduce into a game, the more swingy it is. But it was still balanced. And since Mulch wanted the PR-heavy game, he had every right to run it so long as it was so.

Michael22Omega
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Post Post #2488  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:51 pm

Umm
Ye lol I think it was only that turbo yesterday
But also the only v/v game we played so yeh


mastina I feel like we didn't have enough power to counter power role but since it's mafia scum seeing how people play here it's not that hard to trick town :roll:

acidphoenix
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Post Post #2489  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:52 pm

besides mikey at least i noticed how fucking obviously virt spewed you

unlike the vig

acidphoenix
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Post Post #2490  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:52 pm

oh i forgot uh

the light game where you were cop

acidphoenix
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Post Post #2491  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:53 pm

my iso in that game says i never gave a read on you

acidphoenix
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Post Post #2492  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:55 pm

as opposed to you who got me lynched :(

acidphoenix
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Post Post #2493  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:56 pm

well

not that it was really your fault

cause it looks like you were just pushing me cause the other option was your peek

Michael22Omega
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Post Post #2494  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:56 pm

In post 2490, acidphoenix wrote:oh i forgot uh

the light game where you were cop

oooh right and I was like I remember you were there but didn't see your name you were under alt
Ye that's too

And yeh lol

acidphoenix
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Post Post #2495  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:00 pm

also it's not "our only v/v games" it's just the only games where you're v lol

never me w you v

mastina
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Post Post #2496  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:07 pm

In post 2488, Michael22Omega wrote:mastina I feel like we didn't have enough power to counter power role but since it's mafia scum seeing how people play here it's not that hard to trick town :roll:
Scum do not, I repeat, do NOT need a counter to every town power role.
Towns need power roles to win. Because mountainous games are hilariously, hilariously scumsided.

So town get some level of base power. The general formula is somewhere around 3-4 reasonable-strength town PRs vs. all-goon scumteam, thereabouts. (Maybe one weak scum PR.) That is the golden balance standard of a mafiascum Mini Normal game.

This game had a (gated) Jailkeeper (Jailkeeper is one of the strongest town roles in Normals), ascetic Innocent Child, 2x Vigilante (second town-controlled kill, twice to get game back on odds, and is conftown because scum vigs are blacklisted), day-neighborizer (neighborizers are considered net-null balance wise: they add zero to the town and are thus balanced appropriately), 2x-commuter (commuters are immune to all actions, even strongmen, but otherwise add nothing), and an ungated Watcher (another power-town-role).

That is a lot of power, yes.
...BUT.
-All town roles worth anything save the watcher were gated.
-The jailkeeper has zero synergy with the Vigilante
-The jailkeeper and commute conflict with one another
-The jailkeeper has almost zero synergy with the Watcher
-The Innocent Child was easily killable
-Commuter is not a role which is likely to stop scum kills especially when gated
-The scum had a strongman, thereby effectively removing most of the utility in the jailkeeper which was already gated
-The scum had a neapolitan to identify roles, which also doubled as a safeclaim in that it fit neatly within the setup (given that the town had no investigatives this game, the neapolitan if claiming would be seen as town). Among other points.

So what you're effectively left with is three gated roles which have low synergy, one star role which can still be fucked with (Watcher), and one role which is only a marginal boost (Innocent Child). It's stronger than a typical town, but the lack of real combos is detrimental. The closest to a potential combo is the watcher watching either the vig or the jailkeeper. If the game were to lean any direction, it'd be towards scumsidedness. Not townsidedness.

mastina
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Post Post #2497  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:12 pm

Also you said it yourself: scum had a perfect victory this game.
That, in of itself, is pretty good evidence the setup wasn't stupendously townsided, no? Obviously town can win a scumsided game; scum can win a townsided game.
But people across many, many, many Normal games keep on complaining about balance in this same way. Complaining it's scumsided when town won, complaining it's townsided when scum won, and I'm just looking at it and going. "...Okayyyyyy."

Alisae
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Post Post #2498  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:13 pm

mastina I feel like a lot of the balance complaints are coming from MU players (Tho I do remember Raybells himself saying this was hilarious townsided and he passed it for some reason) and their meta is completely different from ours
like town wins a lot more on MU then it does here.
I play the yugioh TCG now.
Feel free to approach me on discord: Alisae#3438
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Chisa Yukizome
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Post Post #2499  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:15 pm

also people like 3v12 mountainous

that's actually a pretty good description of the difference

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