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Post Post #1400 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:37 pm

Post by Flubbernugget »

In post 1397, implosion wrote:Calling my case on him a collection of a lot of granular points is just an excuse to not respond to the very coarse main focus of why I think he's scum
Oh so you have one granular point instead of several?

Looks like my scum game is better than yours!
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Post Post #1401 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:38 pm

Post by Flubbernugget »

In post 1397, implosion wrote:which is his reads having no cohesion from moment to moment.
See my trajectory is actually townie giving the context you continue to ignore, but considering you need a mislynch I understand why you're hiding it
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Post Post #1402 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:39 pm

Post by Flubbernugget »

In post 1397, implosion wrote:1388 is also asinine; "I would have phrased it this way" is completely meaningless. I do, in fact, need to convince skitter that Flubber is scum to win this game (assuming I'm correct).
I already answered this but I'll do so again

Town find scum one way

Scum "find" scum another
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Post Post #1403 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:40 pm

Post by Flubbernugget »

Do you see how this works now?
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Post Post #1404 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:05 pm

Post by skitter30 »

In post 1368, wavemode wrote:So yeah, forgive me if I'm agitated that this is falling apart like this. I don't mind losing as town, it's a learning experience. But like this? When Seph has been acting scummy for two days? When I have a clear guilty I've been angling for since yesterday? When literally every singe thing I've done in this game is 100% consistent with how I play as town, and 100000% INconsistent with how I EVER play as scum? Come ON people, open your eyes!
Can you give me the tldr version of why you think Seph is scum again?
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Post Post #1405 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:20 pm

Post by Sergtacos »

hello, sorta back. went to disney world lol. will catch up tomorrow
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Post Post #1406 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:32 pm

Post by skitter30 »

OK, I did my homework and skimmed through your ISOs in all the games you mentioned, and read the scum PT of 1950. I didn't find it that enlightening tbh.
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Post Post #1407 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:41 pm

Post by wavemode »

In post 1404, skitter30 wrote:
In post 1368, wavemode wrote:So yeah, forgive me if I'm agitated that this is falling apart like this. I don't mind losing as town, it's a learning experience. But like this? When Seph has been acting scummy for two days? When I have a clear guilty I've been angling for since yesterday? When literally every singe thing I've done in this game is 100% consistent with how I play as town, and 100000% INconsistent with how I EVER play as scum? Come ON people, open your eyes!
Can you give me the tldr version of why you think Seph is scum again?
I didn't even think he was scummy until day 3. I considered his rush to throw a vote onto TIAM and lack of awareness of our likely mylo situation to be scumtells, and I said as much then. Obviously I was off-base in thinking the target of his push was town. But it still struck me as off (and now that he's confscum to me I see that it was because he was bussing, so he didn't care how it would look). With Serg and TIAM in a 1v1, Chip obviously not mafia, and Skitter/Flubber as my main townreads, I considered it obvious that the remaining scumteam would be implosion/seph. I had already checked implosion so that would make him the goon, and I figured the scumteam would not have two goons, so I considered the likelihood that Seph would be not vanilla to be quite high. So, I waited for him to claim vanilla so I could claim vanilla myself and check him at night and prove he was lying.
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Post Post #1408 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:42 pm

Post by skitter30 »

In post 1378, wavemode wrote:This point's also perplexing to me because, again, I'm no psychic; so help me out if I'm missing something here. I agree that a TIAM check would have proved his claim wrong since he'd have come back Vanilla, but how could I have known that? Most of our talk was around the possibility that TIAM was a scum roleblocker - that's still Not Vanilla. So in my mind, my role wasn't really going to help us resolve the 1v1. In fact, by this point I was coming around to the idea of implosion being Mafia Goon, so I really didn't even consider the possibility that, even if TIAM was scum, he'd be a Goon whose claim I could prove wrong with my ability. I was pretty convinced he was going to flip roleblocker, which is why when you asked me yesterday who the other two scum were, I said seph/imp. At that time, I mentally had the scumteam as TIAM roleblocker (or, possibly Serg as something else), imp goon, and then I was going to check Seph and prove his VT claim to be false. And on the off chance Seph had come back Vanilla, I was still going to present that and say that imp and Seph are not both scum, since the scumteam probably don't have two goons.
In post 1113, wavemode wrote:Sure but if he's lying about his role, then he dies
I mean .... I can point to posts that show you've considered the possibility that he was lying about his role.

I don't think this point is unuseful or perplexing. It's kinda important. If you're an odd-night vanilla cop, and there's a dude who quickhammered the day before that you're always sketchy of anyways who you think is a LYLO liability, and he claimed backup roleblocker in sketchy circumstances, I would think that the natural thought process is that you'd want to live through the night so you could check him. Instead you wanted to check
Seph
.

Like I'm having a *really* hard time seeing why a VC who acknowledged that Two may be lying about being a backup rb didn't consider checking him that night to, you know, check if he was lying about being a backup rb, but instead decided to lie through massclaim in order to check someone else altogether.

Regarding your Seph case, if I just remove all the stuff about the guilty, which is only fact from your POV, I'm left with:
In post 1407, wavemode wrote:I didn't even think he was scummy until day 3. I considered his rush to throw a vote onto TIAM and lack of awareness of our likely mylo situation to be scumtells, and I said as much then. Obviously I was off-base in thinking the target of his push was town. But it still struck me as off (and now that he's confscum to me I see that it was because he was bussing, so he didn't care how it would look). With Serg and TIAM in a 1v1, Chip obviously not mafia, and Skitter/Flubber as my main townreads, I considered it obvious that the remaining scumteam would be implosion/seph.
Your main reason for scumreading him is the fact that he didn't he didn't act with enough caution in probable MYLO, coupled with PoE (aside, I'm not sure where you developed such a strong townread on Flubber that you're using it to PoE the game). Your other main reason - making an endgame push on lynchbait - is not relevant given that TIAM actually flipped scum. I dunno. This was also the best I could come up with as a case for scum!seph too, and I just don't think it's that strong.

I'd been townreading him day1-2, and the worst I could come up with is quickvoting in maybe MYLO and making an endgame push on lynchbait, but the guy ended up being scum anyways. Reading his ISO back-to-front now, it just kinda screams town at me.

I was never townreading wave. I don't understand how he played day3 from the perspective of his claimed role. Going through his ISO I see a lot of things I don't or didn't like at the time.

I think I'm voting for wave. Even if the vig/doc stuff is me seeing things that aren't there, I don't think wave's day3 play makes sense from the perspective of his claimed role.

If I'm wrong, I'm sorry to wave for mislynching you and to town for losing the game.

If I'm right, wave, you played incredibly this game.

I'll wait for Serg though if he's going to be around tomorrow.
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Post Post #1409 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:48 pm

Post by wavemode »

Alright wait
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Post Post #1410 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:39 pm

Post by wavemode »

Okay, so what I've written up below is longer than I had intended and it mostly rehashes points I've made several times previously, so here's a TLDR - for various reasons, I considered it not particularly likely that checking TIAM would produce a guilty, and for various reasons I considered it pretty likely that checking one of the VT claims could produce a guilty. Skitter was cleared and I already checked implosion so the choice of check for me was between Seph and Flubber, and I chose Seph because throughout day 3 Flubber had some towny signs and Seph had some scummy signs.

Now, on to the meat:
In post 1408, skitter30 wrote:I mean .... I can point to posts that show you've considered the possibility that he was lying about his role.

I don't think this point is unuseful or perplexing. It's kinda important. If you're an odd-night vanilla cop, and there's a dude who quickhammered the day before that you're always sketchy of anyways who you think is a LYLO liability, and he claimed backup roleblocker in sketchy circumstances, I would think that the natural thought process is that you'd want to live through the night so you could check him. Instead you wanted to check Seph.

Like I'm having a *really* hard time seeing why a VC who acknowledged that Two may be lying about being a backup rb didn't consider checking him that night to, you know, check if he was lying about being a backup rb, but instead decided to lie through massclaim in order to check someone else altogether.

Regarding your Seph case, if I just remove all the stuff about the guilty, which is only fact from your POV, I'm left with:
I didn't even think he was scummy until day 3. I considered his rush to throw a vote onto TIAM and lack of awareness of our likely mylo situation to be scumtells, and I said as much then. Obviously I was off-base in thinking the target of his push was town. But it still struck me as off (and now that he's confscum to me I see that it was because he was bussing, so he didn't care how it would look). With Serg and TIAM in a 1v1, Chip obviously not mafia, and Skitter/Flubber as my main townreads, I considered it obvious that the remaining scumteam would be implosion/seph.
Your main reason for scumreading him is the fact that he didn't he didn't act with enough caution in probable MYLO, coupled with PoE (aside, I'm not sure where you developed such a strong townread on Flubber that you're using it to PoE the game). Your other main reason - making an endgame push on lynchbait - is not relevant given that TIAM actually flipped scum. I dunno. This was also the best I could come up with as a case for scum!seph too, and I just don't think it's that strong.
So, I feel like I keep coming back to the same points on this, but let's deconstruct and attack it from the ground up, since we seem to be having something of a disconnect.

You dislike that I didn't check TIAM last night, I get that. Well actually, TIAM was lynched, so, more to the point, you dislike that I didn't speak up yesterday and offer to check TIAM. Okay, so this sort of goes back to what I've said previously, which is that I really didn't feel like my power would actually solve the 1v1 in that scenario. And then there's also the issue of, we had a plan and it was low-risk. But I will explain these in more detail, from the beginning, just so you can fully understand my entire perspective. Okay, so the first issue: I didn't think my power would solve anything. The possibility of speaking up and checking TIAM did cross my mind. But then, consider the scenario where TIAM is a mafia power role. Then, he comes back Not Vanilla, and at best, we've solved nothing and we've wasted a day and lost a townie. Now, as I've said before, I understand that TIAM did, in fact, flip goon, so this would indeed have proved him guilty. However, I really had no way of knowing yesterday that this would happen. Yes, I considered the possibility he was fake claiming, but I had no guarantee he would, in fact, be a Mafia Goon. He could have been a Mafia Anything. One positive point I considered is that we'd also have an extra gunsmith clear. However, this also would not have been a certainty, as we'd have no way of knowing whether Serg would survive to the next day to report it. Also consider that I was not 100% certain, at that point, that Serg was actually town. In the scenario where Serg is scum, he simply kills me at night after I claim and, again, this plan achieves nothing.

Now, onto the second point, which is that we had a plan. The best plan, in my mind, was to solve the 1v1 with the vig shot. We lynch TIAM because his claim makes sense for a scum roleblocker, which could protect him from a vig shot. Then, if he flips town, chip shoots Serg. Otherwise, chip holsters. That, to me, was an optimal strategy. So, the fact that we had Chip and we had this strategy, was further reason that I did not consider it useful or necessary to out myself and offer to check TIAM. Again, I understand that in *hindsight*, coming out and checking TIAM would have solved the issue even better. But I honestly had no way to know that yesterday, so this is how I saw things. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe this is the main disconnect we're having here. What I'm trying to get you to understand is, I completely understand NOW that TIAM is a goon and that he would have investigated Vanilla if I'd checked him. However, there is truly no way for me to have known THEN that that would have been the case, *especially* after he said "I can confirm my role" (or something like that, I'll have to look back.) Even if he was scum there, that, to me, said that he had some sort of power that could somehow function as roleblocking. Possibly just roleblocker, possibly something else like jailkeeper or ascetic.

Okay, as for the Seph issue, I will address a few various points. First, and probably most important, why check him? Well, as I've said before, you have to understand that I considered my main usefulness as a secret vanilla cop to be that I could catch scum if they fakeclaimed vanilla townie. In addition, with TIAM flipping Goon, I was even more confident that whatever scum were left would be Not Vanilla, since the scumteam likely don't have two goons. At that point, the remaining scumteam was likely right within the ranks of the VT claims - implosion, skitter, flubber, seph. This to me, was a perfect opportunity because if I could just guess who the scum were within those four, they would almost certainly come back Not Vanilla and I'd have a guilty. So, out of the four. I had already checked implosion and he came back vanilla. Skitter I've been townreading since the early game, and also investigated not to have a gun. That right there narrowed it down to Flubber and Seph. So really, it was simply a question of who I scumread more, and the answer there was clearly Seph for me, for the reasons I gave before. Now second, you asked why a Flubber townread and an implosion/sephiroth scumread? Well, just to clarify a bit here, keep in mind that is was only *before* TIAM's flip that I considered the remaining scumteam to be implosion and sephiroth. However, as I've said before, *after* his flip, I didn't think the scumteam would have two goons, so I considered implosion to be likely town because he's Vanilla. (Though, Seph recently raised the possibility of multiball, which I suppose would change things.)

But still, just for the sake of completeness, let's address
before
the flip - why did I, at *that* point, consider the scumteam to be implosion/seph and not consider flubber? Well, the simple answer is that I did consider flubber, but I really thought the associatives were better in imp/seph, and that, as a number of people pointed out yesterday, flubber's posts early day showed towny emotion. It was not such a super-strong townread as to PoE the game, as you say - it simply made me want to check Seph's claim over Flubber's. Then there is the issue you raise of, why scumread Seph at all, even after TIAM flipped scum? Now, first I'd also like to clarify this point - my feelings about whether or not I had a super strong scumread of Seph or not did not particularly factor into my decision to check him. I checked him for the reasons above - it was simply between Seph and Flubber, and Flubber seemed more towny to me at the time. (Personally I think he seemed more towny to most people at the time, but maybe I'm wrong.) However, again, for the sake of completeness I will still explain. Me scumreading Seph at this point sort of goes back to the points I've made several times previously, but I'll put it out there again - scum!TIAM is very likely going to be bussed here, plain and simple.
Especially
by experienced teammates. If you go back and read my argument with seph day 3, I pointed out that he was willing to throw his vote down before any real discussion in the day could be had, like possibly massclaim to maybe assess whether TIAM's claim made sense. Yes, TIAM flipped scum, but I still didn't like Seph's early day 3 attitude, and even when it turned out it wasn't an endgame push from scum on town, it still struck me as something that could come from scum bussing. Again, it wasn't a super strong scumread after TIAM's flip, but it was enough to make me want to check him over flubber.
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Post Post #1411 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:47 pm

Post by wavemode »

In post 1408, skitter30 wrote:Like I'm having a *really* hard time seeing why a VC who acknowledged that Two may be lying about being a backup rb didn't consider checking him that night to, you know, check if he was lying about being a backup rb, but instead decided to lie through massclaim in order to check someone else altogether.
Just to really drive this home and try to understand where the difficulty is coming from, since this seems to be the sticking point, I ask again - what actual evidence did I have yesterday that TIAM was a goon? I completely understand that we were trying to determine whether he was lying about his claim, but still, again - how could I have known then that TIAM would not be a scum power role and investigate Not Vanilla, thus solving nothing?
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Post Post #1412 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:50 pm

Post by wavemode »

In post 1120, skitter30 wrote:Backup scum roleblocker makes a lot of sense here, and I was kinda wondering if that was a thing all game day.
In fact, you yourself wrote this. If TIAM were a scum roleblocker, he investigates Not Vanilla, proving nothing. I really saw no opportunity here. These optimal actions are only clear in hindsight.
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Post Post #1413 (ISO) » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:32 pm

Post by wavemode »

In post 1406, skitter30 wrote:OK, I did my homework and skimmed through your ISOs in all the games you mentioned, and read the scum PT of 1950. I didn't find it that enlightening tbh.
I get that you're just trying to logically consider both sides of this, I understand that. So at the
very
least, can I ask you, why I throw myself in front of TIAM here as his scum partner? You've seen two of my scumgames, in both of which I bussed and lynched my partner once they fell out of line. (Thinking back I'm pretty sure I also did this near the end of my very first newbie...) I really just don't like getting into risky situations where my partner flips red and I'm caught on the wrong side of it. As I've said before, I don't like playing scum and honestly, I really don't tend to put a ton of effort into it, except insofar as I don't want to ruin the game for my scumpartners. There will come a day when I'll put some work into my scum game so I can approach situations like that calmly, but I'm just not there yet.

So, obviously I was wrong to townread TIAM yesterday. But can you honestly say that scum!me did all of that
purely
so it would go completely counter to my meta, even though almost nobody in this game was in either of those games anyway, even though it might kill my credibility with the town, and even though serg and seph were still available to push as mislynches? That last point is particularly important. Obviously serg is town at this point, but at that time yesterday, he had claimed VT. And as for seph, I had already set up by waiting for him to claim first and then, well,
starting
a crumb. So if you assume I'm scum at that point setting up a serg push, or a "fake guilty" on seph for the next day... why defend TIAM? Why not just let him go down there? This is obviously an extremely WIFOM question, but just humor me - I'm simply posing scenarios so you see this clearly in logical terms. If Seph and I are two intelligent actors here, is the intelligent move really to hard defend TIAM and fake guilty the one pushing him? Or is it to simply bus TIAM and move into the next day with increased towncred? I mean, when speaking in hypotheticals it is easy to imagine all sorts of Machiavellian plots that may be at work here - but, logically, what really is the simplest answer? It's that I'm town.
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Post Post #1414 (ISO) » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:10 pm

Post by skitter30 »

In post 1411, wavemode wrote:Just to really drive this home and try to understand where the difficulty is coming from, since this seems to be the sticking point, I ask again - what actual evidence did I have yesterday that TIAM was a goon? I completely understand that we were trying to determine whether he was lying about his claim, but still, again - how could I have known then that TIAM would not be a scum power role and investigate Not Vanilla, thus solving nothing?
Well, that's not quite my problem; no, I'm clearly not expecting you to be psychic and take night actions that only seem optimal in hindsight. What I dislike is that I'm trying really hard to see any indication that you've been playing from a VC-mindset pre-massclaim, and I'm having trouble seeing it. Like as far as I can tell, a perfectly valid explanation for your behavior is that post mass-claim, you realized that no one claimed investigative, so you might as well gambit. I don't really see *anything* from before mass-claim that would substantiate your claim. When I do go back and look at day3 and how you played, I *do* see a lot of posts that I don't quite see coming from a VC. Like, for example, the fact that you acknowledged he may be lying about his role but you wanted to lynch him anyways; I kinda see TIAM as being the obvious target for a VC cop in that situation, and the fact that you never thought to check him is still kinda bizarre to me. Like, I get that you thought he may be *some other* scum PR, but I dunno; it's weird to me that you didn't want to check him.

But your reads do seem to track throughout the day.

Aside, what do you think about the fact that implosion is taking your side and defending you in all this?

And after skimming your ISOs, this was actually the most interesting and relevant post I found, from Large 207:
In post 1702, wavemode wrote:We lynch wrong and I shoot wrong, and there are 2 scum left? We could be in lylo tomorrow. Is that the point at which you want people to start going "oh hey by the way guys I'm a cop and I got a guilty last night DDD"

No, we're getting this shit out in the open right now. Let scum take their pick of who they feel is most important to shoot. Most of us will still live to fight on
Why didn't this mindset apply to this game?

But yeah, I did look at all your scumgames, and you did your best to distance yourself from partners in trouble, and really never went out on a limb for them in a way that could incriminate you, so this doesn't really match your meta, like at all. And I'm not sure why you would decide to make an anti-meta gambit on Two of all people, who didn't even flip PR, but goon.
What do you think about this post?

I dunno. I think the sticking-to-your-guns and not-understanding-what-I'm-not-understanding is actually kinda townie tbh. Like since you claimed, everything has been internally consistent at least. And while I don't fully understand your POV, or why you made the choices you did, you understand it, and the conviction and exasperation of 'why don't you just understand what I'm saying?' coming from you seems real? I don't know if I explained that well.
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Post Post #1415 (ISO) » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:00 pm

Post by wavemode »

In post 1414, skitter30 wrote:and the fact that you never thought to check him is still kinda bizarre to me. Like, I get that you thought he may be *some other* scum PR, but I dunno; it's weird to me that you didn't want to check him
Alright, I can understand this sentiment. But that's the decision I made at the time with the information that was available to me. And it netted me a guilty on Seph as I hoped it would, so I don't regret it
In post 1414, skitter30 wrote:Aside, what do you think about the fact that implosion is taking your side and defending you in all this?
Well, implosion is more or less conftown to me at this point simply because if he switched sides, they'd have enough votes to lynch me and it would be a mafia win. So, any comment I make about imp's play at this point is going to be colored by that perspective. That said, there was something that I thought was quite intelligent he wrote today
In post 1397, implosion wrote:I feel like wave/seph's arguments at this point are almost entirely meaningless. I think speculation of the form "if wavemode is really a vanilla cop, why didn't he X" is also inherently not going to be that useful because it presumes that he'll have the thought process in question, and different people will view the same game differently from the same role.
These points sort of go back to what I was saying to Seph earlier, which was about the issue of perspective. He's confscum to me, so I could literally go find somewhere he says "lol" and say "see how scummy Seph is, guys? He says 'lol' here just to seem more towny in this situation." And it would be true! That probably is why he said "lol". But that case only makes sense to me because of my perspective, which is that he's confirmed scum. So to me, *everything* he does is just to seem more towny. And assuming Seph were town here, his points against me would have the same inherent problem; the fact that he, in my same situation, would not have made the decisions I made, does not make my decisions wrong, nor does it make them scummy. That's why I said it doesn't make a lot of sense for me to get into a war of words with him; it makes a lot more sense to simply present my result and let people evaluate for themselves if my claim is believable. Obviously, that's now come back to bite me since there's certain decisions I made yesterday that people heavily disagree with. But I still regret none of them. I strongly feel I would probably not be standing here alive with a guilty on Seph if I'd played yesterday any differently, and without that he would use his increased towncred from bussing TIAM to win the game. Probably my one strategic mistake is not crumbing earlier in the game but, again, I didn't initially expect my role to end up being all that important.
In post 1414, skitter30 wrote:Why didn't this mindset apply to this game?
lol I was actually getting pretty aggravated with the players of 207 for lurking so hard. Partially the mod's fault for flaking on the game repeatedly, killing everyone's motivation, but still. So I claimed vig and called for a massclaim and said I'd shoot anyone who didn't participate. Surprise surprise, everyone but Nero claimed VT, meaning Nero was pretty obviously town and scumteam were in the VT claims. Good overall result, since up to that point I probably would have shot Nero.

In any case, that's my rationale behind that post but idk if that answers what you want to know. Probably the thing about, let the scumteam decide who they want to shoot? Keep in mind that I didn't actually make Nero claim his role at that point (he just said "I'm a PR"), nor Mulch, since for various reasons I was reasonably sure they were town and that if they were power roles and had any useful results they would share them. So I allowed WIFOM to work in our favor in that regard. In the end, Nero turned out to be a Tracker and wanted to catch someone commit the kill, but wasn't able to. Meh.
In post 1414, skitter30 wrote:What do you think about this post?
lolSeph. If you actually read through his rhetoric, you'll see half his posts claiming I'm, like, a mafia mastermind with this multi-tiered 5D chess plot going on, then half his posts go like "I can see why town is your specialty" like I made obvious boneheaded mistakes

In any case, besides the obvious problems that this supposed plot takes a bunch of really huge risks considering Seph was saying from the very beginning of day 3 that he thought I was TIAM's partner yet I defended TIAM anyway, AND this plan creates really, really bad associatives if Chip turned out to be an SK (There's an FBI Agent people!!) and shot someone at random, AND there's the ridiculously risky fact that I was defending TIAM *before* we agreed to massclaim, so if I were scum and town had decided against massclaiming (and I would thus have no way of directing the vig shot) I would have just been left with my dick in my hand in the way of a plan... there's also a really basic and obvious problem that I've pointed out before, which is that Serg had claimed VT. As scum I'd have literally zero reason at that point to even attempt to execute such a desperate plan, since Serg was still a strong option to pursue for a lynch.
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Post Post #1416 (ISO) » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:36 pm

Post by skitter30 »

In post 1415, wavemode wrote:Well, implosion is more or less conftown to me at this point simply because if he switched sides, they'd have enough votes to lynch me and it would be a mafia win. So, any comment I make about imp's play at this point is going to be colored by that perspective. That said, there was something that I thought was quite intelligent he wrote today
So you're arguing that Flubber is a scum-doc and that the team is seph/flubber/two, with Seph being some other scum PR?

And the interesting point about 207 is that there you argued that everyone needed to tell the truth during massclaim lest you end up in LYLO and someone decides to claim to be a cop with a guilty, which is kinda exactly what you did here.
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Post Post #1417 (ISO) » Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:00 pm

Post by wavemode »

In post 1416, skitter30 wrote:So you're arguing that Flubber is a scum-doc and that the team is seph/flubber/two, with Seph being some other scum PR?
Well, yeah, I think so. Why else would implosion not have turned on me by this point?

And it's not far-fetched - Large 206 also had a Gunsmith, and a Mafia Doctor to balance it.
In post 1416, skitter30 wrote:And the interesting point about 207 is that there you argued that everyone needed to tell the truth during massclaim lest you end up in LYLO and someone decides to claim to be a cop with a guilty, which is kinda exactly what you did here.
Bah, I was just giving Nero a hard time. I myself have lied in massclaim in the past to do exactly what he was trying to do there. But keep in mind that that game was *dead*, like seriously dead. Massclaim was the only thing that was going to get anyone to generate any content whatsoever after two mods flaked. When he refused to participate at all, I needed to make perfectly clear that he knew I wasn't bluffing when I said I'd shoot him for not participating (even though I was...). If you read on, once I was reasonably sure he knew I wasn't bluffing, I gave it up and didn't require him to claim, because in my mind there was no way scum in that scenario would fall on their sword like he did, just to prove a point.
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Post Post #1418 (ISO) » Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:03 pm

Post by wavemode »

Also, Merry Christmas to the Eastern Standard Timezone
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Post Post #1419 (ISO) » Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:21 pm

Post by Nexus »

Votecount 4.5:


Sephiroth (1)
- wavemode
wavemode (1)
- Sephiroth

Not voting (4)
- Sergtacos, implosion, skitter30, Flubbernugget,

With 6 alive it takes 4 to lynch


Deadline is at 4pm GMT on Tuesday 26th December 2017 (expired on 2017-12-26 17:00:00)
Trans rights are human rights.
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Post Post #1420 (ISO) » Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:52 pm

Post by skitter30 »

I dunno. The associatives between you/implosion are kinda ick.

There's guaranteed to be at least one scum in {wave/Seph}, given that you're in a 1v1. I think I'm kinda over the idea that this whole thing is scum theatre, which means that there is also one scum in {flubber/implosion}, assuming me/Serg are town, which I think everyone does.

My reads, independent of claims, are still flubber > seph > wave > implosion, from towniest to scummiest.

The team you're proposing is Two/Seph/Flubber. I can buy that I'm wrong on one of {seph/flubber}, but for that scumteam to make sense, I'd have to be wrong on both of them, and I've been townreading them both since earlygame. I just don't think I'm wrong on both of them tbh, not in this gamestate when that means both of {wave/implosion} have to be town. I just don't see it.

I really just don't think the game or gamestate makes sense if {wave/implosion} are both town. It does make a lot of sense if {wave/implosion} are both scum though.

------

Going through the possible teams given that one (or more) scum is in {wave/Seph} and one (or less) scum is in {flubber/implosion}:

Spoiler:
-seph/flubber: I would be quite shocked if this was the team. The balance would be screwy (this necessitates scum-doc flubber and scum-PR seph; the game you're referencing is a Large). I'm not claiming to have perfect reads, but I don't think my reads are *that* bad in that I'd have to be wrong on literally everyone alive in this game right now not named Serg for this to be the team. Yeah, I don't deny that I definitely could be wrong somewhere .... I just don't think I'm wrong *everywhere*.

- seph/implosion: maybe? But why is implosion protecting town!wave here? Like ... what's the point? He just needs to go along with the mass suspicion of wave and lynch him to win the game.

- seph/wave - really good scum theatre tbh. But we don't lose today if that's the case, so I'm not going to worry about this right now.

-wave/flubber - I guess I can kinda see this if I squint? But why did they have such a big fight today? Why doesn't scum!flubber just side with scum!wave to get town!seph lynched? Like ... why have that fight at all? There's literally no purpose to it.

-wave/implosion - wave kinda cleared implosion through his check, wants Serg to check Seph instead of implosion in the event of a no-lynch, is treating implosion as conftown despite mass suspicion of implosion; implosion is protecting wave and defending him ... these kinda look like partner interactions tbh.

--------

I think I'm back to voting wave tbh; I think I'm kinda ready to end the day (and well, hopefully not the game) whenever Serg is.

-------
In post 1417, wavemode wrote:Why else would implosion not have turned on me by this point?
The obvious answer is that it's MYLO and that you guys might be partners? In order to win the game if Seph is town?

And the fact that he's never reconsidered his support of you is honestly a little odd given that it's MYLO?
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Post Post #1421 (ISO) » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:22 pm

Post by wavemode »

In post 1420, skitter30 wrote:-seph/flubber: I would be quite shocked if this was the team. The balance would be screwy (this necessitates scum-doc flubber and scum-PR seph; the game you're referencing is a Large). I'm not claiming to have perfect reads, but I don't think my reads are *that* bad in that I'd have to be wrong on literally everyone alive in this game right now not named Serg for this to be the team. Yeah, I don't deny that I definitely could be wrong somewhere .... I just don't think I'm wrong *everywhere*.
Come on, don't get like this and ignore all of the clear evidence here!

I presume you've read Open 703 that I finished recently? You think I won that game because my day 1 reads were perfect? I literally had all four masons in my initial scumreads lol. But we pulled that game back around, because I was willing to re-evaluate. Like, you can't get so rigid on "no way, there's no way every single one of my reads are wrong here." If I had done that in that game we would not have won. Or even Open 694 from a while back, where from where I was standing scum!Egg was probably the towniest player in that game. But I was willing to re-evaluate, and again it won us the game. Actually evaluate the gamestate! Every single thing in this game points to me being town here, and you will throw it away because you can't accept that maybe you aren't seeing things correctly?

God, someday people will wake up and recognize that if wavemode is up at 3 am on Christmas writing wallposts, he's just fucking town lmao. Winning as scum doesn't take all this, just bus your partner and ride it out. When I win as scum I actually get annoyed with how little effort the town puts in to catch me. I just have to lurk most of the time and offer a bit of analysis occasionally and everything goes okay.

If I were scum I'd be voting implosion today and sipping cocoa somewhere, smh
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Post Post #1422 (ISO) » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:25 pm

Post by wavemode »

Or better yet, I'd have voted TIAM yesterday and I wouldn't be in this situation...
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Post Post #1423 (ISO) » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:29 pm

Post by wavemode »

In post 1420, skitter30 wrote:The balance would be screwy
Also, explain this. We have a full vig in a mini
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Post Post #1424 (ISO) » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:33 pm

Post by wavemode »

In post 1422, wavemode wrote:Or better yet, I'd have voted TIAM yesterday and I wouldn't be in this situation...
Also, explain why I did not do this. Like, you actually have to think I'm 100% retarded to be scum with TIAM here and defend him...
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