Mini Normal 1985 No Spoilers (END)

Flavor Leaf
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Post Post #2325  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:28 pm

This is also the second game in my recent run where I was neighborized Day 1/Night 1 and was able to pocket through that.

Yes, Mulch, I’ve been scum every game except for my IC newbie game since the game you modded, I believe. I am SO burnt out from being scum.
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Post Post #2326  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:28 pm

like Hawk, i also thought it would be between Gamma and Flavor. did not expect my clear to be lynched. :<
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Post Post #2327  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:32 pm

if i'd been in that neighbourhood you would have lost, you're right. good job keeping me out of it.
i'm... incredibly surprised nobody else saw it, though.
i remember being so frustrated (when i was first pushing Flavor, before i thought he could be town) that he had this strong neighbourhood presence i was unable to replicate. i didn't think i could win a 1v1.
then Gamma continued not to neighbourize me... until lylo. neighbourized the same night i was killed. :v
i should have realized he was town sooner. it was actually Flavor that convinced me Gamma was locktown, as i said.

i won my last scumgame in part because town just ignored the reaxs of flipped town. the trend continues. haha.
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Gamma Emerald
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Post Post #2328  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:36 pm

In post 2327, Chara wrote:if i'd been in that neighbourhood you would have lost, you're right. good job keeping me out of it.
i'm... incredibly surprised nobody else saw it, though.
i remember being so frustrated (when i was first pushing Flavor, before i thought he could be town) that he had this strong neighbourhood presence i was unable to replicate. i didn't think i could win a 1v1.
then Gamma continued not to neighbourize me... until lylo. neighbourized the same night i was killed. :v
i should have realized he was town sooner. it was actually Flavor that convinced me Gamma was locktown, as i said.

i won my last scumgame in part because town just ignored the reaxs of flipped town. the trend continues. haha.

This is why I added you the last night, I figured you should be able to see the neighborhood
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Boonskiies
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Post Post #2329  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:36 pm

Also, it is time!

My next BooneyToonz game is in review at the moment, and I am coming up to the top of the queue.

From my last Large Normal game, I got a lot of pre-in’s for my future Large Theme game, which I may be putting into queue ‘somewhat soon’, but I won’t be using the pre-in’s from that for my Mini Normal. I have to decide if I want to do a Large Theme or another Large Normal during/after my Mini Normal, because if I do a Large Theme, you best believe I’m going all out to make a memorable unique game!

But yes, I am now taking pre-in’s for my Mini Normal!
"Let it be known that almost everything Boonskiies said is either hilarious or annoying." - Shinobi
"Though Boon is the best town player I've ever seen so far." - keyenpeydee
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Post Post #2330  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:38 pm

I’ve also pretty much made Boonskiies the account I mod with or do more established games with, like Team Mafia, and generally will be playing on FL, as I like to have games on one account, and other noteworthy things like modding on Boonskiies.
"Let it be known that almost everything Boonskiies said is either hilarious or annoying." - Shinobi
"Though Boon is the best town player I've ever seen so far." - keyenpeydee
Yes, I'm Flavor Leaf. Yes, I would do that as town.

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Post Post #2331  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:46 pm

In post 2329, Boonskiies wrote:But yes, I am now taking pre-in’s for my Mini Normal!

yes please!
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Heil King Froggo.
Ribbit ribbit." -Transcend

Srceenplay
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Post Post #2332  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:48 pm

In post 2308, mhsmith0 wrote:quickly eyeballing it not really, other than fixing the color tag.

you could move the last townie to dead because endgamed, but i've seen it either way and it's not actually important.

I can’t figure the color tag out.
There is a bad tag somewhere messing it up.
It was also not letting the vote counter come up.
"A man can not be too careful on the choices of his enemies." Oscar Wilde

Srceenplay
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Post Post #2333  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:51 pm

In post 2331, Fro99er wrote:
In post 2329, Boonskiies wrote:But yes, I am now taking pre-in’s for my Mini Normal!

yes please!

Me as well.
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TwoInAMillion
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Post Post #2334  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:58 pm

I'll pre in

Gamma Emerald
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Post Post #2335  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:59 pm

I liked the last one, maybe?
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Post Post #2336  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:00 pm

In post 2332, Srceenplay wrote:
In post 2308, mhsmith0 wrote:quickly eyeballing it not really, other than fixing the color tag.

you could move the last townie to dead because endgamed, but i've seen it either way and it's not actually important.

I can’t figure the color tag out.
There is a bad tag somewhere messing it up.
It was also not letting the vote counter come up.


Slapping on a [/color] after Prods = * and before the spoiler section will fix the coloring issue (you can also delete one of the two [/color] tags after Mafia Goon). If you want everything elseto stay orange you need to tweak a bit.
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Flavor Leaf
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Post Post #2337  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:15 pm

Got you three down. :)
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Yes, I’m Boonskiies. Yes, I would do that as scum.

mastina
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Post Post #2338  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:11 pm

In post 2242, Gamma Emerald wrote:How did this setup get passed...
You had a cop--the strongest town role available--and a rolecop, which in this game got a clear on the Miller (because mafia Millers are not a thing and are explicitly blacklisted) and a guilty on 1.5 scum roles (Encryptor is a scum role but has on some occasions been graylisted as a town role which makes sense since you can call the role Daytalk Enabler and have it be whitelisted as a town role; I talk about this more right here).

...But that's it. Two strong investigatives, zero other power. The miller can't be investigated by the cop and must be investigated by the rolecop to be verified.

Against that, you were facing a Roleblocker, capable of blocking said two investigatives and which could NOT be nightkilled. (This lack of being able to be nightkilled is vital, as it MASSIVELY boosts the power of the traitor.)
PLUS the scum had a nightkill capable of taking out said investigatives (and hey guess who they killed once said investigatives had claimed their results?), which they could use with impunity. No risk of protectives. No risk of failure.

This game diverged from the standard PR mold by quite a bit, via having essentially two much stronger roles + a net-zero role (neighborizer as town is net-neutral balance wise and is considered nothing) + a SECOND net-zero overall role (Miller overall balances out to have this effect) against a scumteam with one SUPER role which also had one SUPER nerf (being a traitor), plus the double-edged sword of their second role (Encryptor allowing for daytalk which is in fact +EV for the scumteam, but also as an assumed-guilty for the rolecop).

In short, both sides were simultaneously MORE powerful than the standard...
...And yet, LESS powerful than the standard as well. They had things which increased their power, but traded off for things which decreased their overall power rating and left them more vulnerable. (Miller + Neighborizer are technically roles, but again, they are considered as adding nothing to the town; traitor is an obvious nerf but with bulletproof as an obvious buff; encryptor giving an obvious edge to scum yet also being something almost assuredly going to be treated as a guilty.)

Given that, game was overall balanced--swingy, yes. Undeniably so. But that's always going to be the case when you diverge from the golden formula. This game might not have diverged from the formula in the TYPICAL way (technically speaking, it has 4 PRs vs. one scum PR which is close to the golden formula), but it still did, so swing was still inevitable. This was, however, more or less the setup Screenplay originally wanted to run. Aside from formatting of PM changes, the main difference between the initial setup and the final setup was adding the rolecop.

If a mod wants to run a setup and the setup is balanced, then it's not the job of the NRG to shut it down thanks to swing. And I'd even argue that in spite of how early the game could end in a town sweep, the game wasn't that extremely swingy. The town would need perfect play in order to crush the scum; the scum needed reasonably competent play (blocking/nightkilling investigatives) in order to crush the town. Neither happened (though the latter came closer to happening, thus the outcome of the game), and if either had, my stance would more or less be that if the scum/town let themselves get in that position, they probably deserved what was coming to them. :P

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Post Post #2339  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:29 pm

Thanks Mastina
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Post Post #2340  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:38 pm

In post 2280, Gamma Emerald wrote:WTF
Why is the NRG so dumb
I mean.

You say this but I feel the need to instead ask why Normal Game players don't actually know the rules for Normal Games. A lot of games go wrong for the town because players seem to not pay attention to the rules, but it's the NRG's job to pay attention to the rules. (Admittedly, we can occasionally slip up, but when we do it is often so minor as to have gone completely unnoticed the entire game. This is obviously a VERY rare occurrence though because we typically have 3 individuals cross-checking all aspects of the setup such that often no detail is missed.)

The rules are even listed on the wiki, and we try to be as unambiguous and consistent in enforcing them as possible.

The NRG's methodology is not some mysterious process left unknown to the ages. We follow a set procedure where we have set models for what we do. My terminology for this isn't universal, but the concepts my terminology are meant to convey ARE. (For instance, other reviewers might not call the golden rule of balance by that name, where 3-4 town PRs vs. goons or maybe one moderate scum PR is the standard model...but while they might not call it by that name, they DO balance by that STANDARD anyway.)

Of course.

We're not perfect. We're flawed, and the system we create/follow is even more so. There's a lot of ambiguities that over the years we've had to clear up, and even after all of the things we've cleared up, still yet more remain. If you think something should be changed, then voice the opinion that it should be changed, and if the NRG and/or Nexus (mostly Nexus) thinks it's a good idea, then the change will be made. So things like "making the page more clear on what is, and is not, allowed" and "making it more readily known in more locations what the rules are", and so on and so forth, just suggest that, and while it might not get done immediately, if it's a good idea we can readily implement, we will do so.

Also, for what it's worth, RE: swing.
Games in the near-future may either be allowed to have more than they currently do, or far less than they currently do. It's loosely something we've discussed a little bit backstage. It depends on what we decide we will, or will not, implement/change/etc. Voicing your opinion can make a difference; if we consistently get players who think that more extreme levels of swing should not be acceptable, then chances are there will be changes which make more extreme levels of swing happen less often.

(Personally I'm ambivalent on the subject. On the one hand, allowing for greater swing allows for the mod to have more creative freedom, which I feel that they should be entitled to have and that the lifeblood of the Normal Queue relies on mods having it. On the other hand, you want your players to not consistently feel cheated, more or less.)

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Post Post #2341  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:42 pm

Flavor a god
I was banned from mafia universe for calling out white supremacism and I would do it again

Flavor Leaf
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Post Post #2342  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:45 pm

In post 2341, Mulch wrote:Flavor a god


You set me up nicely. <3
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Post Post #2343  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:52 pm

btw, while gamma was the townie who mis-hammered the investigative clear in f3, this was i think a collective town failure whereby all townies who were alive at the time that the rolecop announced the miller clear share equal responsibility for that not being a fully understood lock 100% clear by every single townie on the board (and while that would not have guaranteed a town win, at the least it would have improved town's odds). That's something pretty basic about the setup that there simply should not have been any doubt on. when you have multiple heads involved in solving a problem, at least one should have been able to see it, explain it, and make it overwhelmingly clear to everyone else what the score was.

There are lots of things that define site meta for better or worse. "The investigative hard clear can be the game-ending mislynch" is a thing that should not be on that list.
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Post Post #2344  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:00 pm

In post 2295, Antihero wrote:
In post 2285, mhsmith0 wrote:Part of the problem is that towns are so consistently ineffective you need kind of a ridiculous amount of power to be at all competitive...


not really

it's not that town need -ridiculous- power bc they're bad. it's that they need it to balance for scum getting a factional NK, which is crazy powerful even tho no one acknowledges it.


That's literally the point of scum

smh
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Post Post #2345  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:25 pm

i literally didn't say it wasn't nor was i passing judgement.
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Post Post #2346  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:27 pm

will be happy to steer clear of you from now on tho, mulch

later, everyone
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Post Post #2347  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:14 pm

I guess mastina is right saying encryptor can be a greylist town role, there's no real word on whether roles other than mason in the explicit normal lists for one alignment can be greylist for the other
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Post Post #2348  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:41 pm

In post 2347, Gamma Emerald wrote:I guess mastina is right saying encryptor can be a greylist town role, there's no real word on whether roles other than mason in the explicit normal lists for one alignment can be greylist for the other
Actually, as it works: all roles listed in the town section are explicitly blacklisted from being mafia-aligned. Quite explicitly, 100% no graylist not allowed, full out ban on them.

The roles in the mafia section are where it's a little less clear.
Obviously, Goons/Traitors are mafia specific roles.

There have been town encryptors. (Which makes sense, since you can call a town encryptor a town daytalk-enabler and have it count as a whitelisted role; calling it an encryptor is just changing the name because they have literally identical effects.)

There has been talk backstage of allowing Ninja/Strongman as modifiers (what'd be necessary in order to allow a town role to have them), but this is at least currently not whitelisted; at best it'd be a graylist but I actually believe it'd be a blacklist? It's admittedly a little bit of a sketchy zone.

Basically, the town roles will NEVER be scum; the scum roles could in specific circumstances be town and may be headed to being more explicitly graylisted as such, and when you think about it, this isn't actually that surprising.

Town having a 'mafia role' is an unusual twist, sure, yeah, but it doesn't impact the game balance by much. It doesn't exactly break the game in favor of the town. (Though, strongman vig might, which is why I said that could be blacklisted, but it's again not quite clear.)
Mafia having a 'town role' is bastard modding. It explicitly breaks the game in favor of the scum.

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Post Post #2349  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:46 pm

N1c lol

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