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Post Post #2650 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:49 am

Post by Nero Cain »

MD
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Post Post #2651 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:01 am

Post by mastina »

Correct, MD is almost always the place for conversation, especially with people who are in positions of power. (I'll cover this in my wall to Tchill, but I would like to clarify: contrary to appearances, I hold no actual power.)

That being said, postgames SHOULD be a place where relatively reasonable, civil discussion can and should happen.

For instance, yes, Tchill, I do hold respect for you. (I respect most people, but that's beside the point.) I apologize for not getting to my wall yesterday. I had an unforseen obstacle in the form of my mom hogging the computer I use. (In spite of her having a laptop and me NOT having one.)

I probably don't have time today, but I will try. If I fail, I definitely have time tomorrow, assuming that no obstacles manifest like yesterday.
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Post Post #2652 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:07 am

Post by Tchill13 »

Oh no rush at all mastina. Whenever you can is fine.
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Post Post #2653 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:09 am

Post by Tchill13 »

A question I have for T-bone is what action will be taken against espionage and other mods that just flake mid game? Is there a standard for how they should operate and is it met with accountability if failed?
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Post Post #2654 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:42 am

Post by mastina »

In post 2653, Tchill13 wrote:A question I have for T-bone is what action will be taken against espionage and other mods that just flake mid game? Is there a standard for how they should operate and is it met with accountability if failed?
I can kinda answer that.

Check the ban announcement thread. Every once and a while, you'll see messages pertaining to moderators that are punished for misconduct, most of which is failure to run a game to completion (read: flakes).

It's a rare punishment, but it is inflicted every once in a while.
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Post Post #2655 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:45 am

Post by Krazy »

Espeonage explained multiple times that he was basically in the middle of a family emergency, his mistake was not contacting a list mod for a replacement sooner, the flake itself is forgivable.
vote conspiracy
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Post Post #2656 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:47 am

Post by mastina »

BTW, as always: the report button is something that you can use to draw attention to misconduct. You can also PM the moderator about an issue, and/or the listmod of the queue (implosion), particularly if the problem IS the mod. The mod team may not be perfect at resolving issues, but they still do a fairly decent job…when they know that there IS an issue. (They can't act on something that they don't know about!)
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Post Post #2657 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:08 am

Post by Tchill13 »

In post 2655, Krazy wrote:Espeonage explained multiple times that he was basically in the middle of a family emergency, his mistake was not contacting a list mod for a replacement sooner, the flake itself is forgivable.
Oh yeah that's understandable then. I'm not sure why most games don't require a back up of some sort though. I've been in multiple games where mods have just disappeared before.
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Post Post #2658 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:24 am

Post by Ankamius »

Towns being generally bad on this site is a very complex issue; there's not one thing that causes it to be the case and the solution isn't just one thing either.

A lot of people think having very good reads is how you assess your town quality, but that's very one dimensional.

If you recognize that your reads are not going to be good and start pushing to support players you can see are correct, you played well.

If town in general is playing well and your only contribution is looking town, you played well.

A lot of the issues I see is that what people's roles are in a game and what they perceive it to be are often very misaligned. Town doesn't need 3/4 of the playerlist to be leaders pushing their lynches through, town needs a mix of different playstyles in order to be effective in the widest variety of cases.

Anyway, sorry for butting in, but I occasionally look at what's going on in other games and this is the kind of thing I can't stop myself from commenting on :P
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Post Post #2659 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:36 am

Post by Tchill13 »

No i welcome it, especially from someone I've seen and I feel they're competent.

Town has two jobs. Not being lynched is the most important. People tend to disagree. If no town is never lynched town will win. This is my issue with lurkers. It's scummy. It's easily avoidable. Good townies can easily play town. Not to mention you can't vote scum if you're dead. If enough townies can't vote scum scum win.

The 2nd job is lynching scum, which is much more complex. Lynching scum DOES require less activity than being able to convey that you're town. You can easily piggy back off others logic. Scum can also lynch scum, so this doesn't make you town so to speak.

I'm just saying if you eliminate bad town practices then town will win more. It's common sense. Bad practices can't be eliminated here specifically for 2 reasons.

Meta is used to town clear people with bad practices. Lurking, tunneling, bad logic...

Mods justify over powered town by assuming town PRs will play as poor or worse than expected while assuming scum will play well. This is a never ending cycle of town playing worse and worse.

I'm sure someone thought that'd fix the inactivity issue for players that don't play when they draw VT. Well it takes activity to convey your town. Now you even have PRs that lurk so they're scummy enough not to beNK'D .

This site rewards inactivity. It rewards bad play in the for of town clears from meta. That's why town sucks here. Nobody is doing anything to fix it.
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Post Post #2660 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:23 pm

Post by Krazy »

How town can be less bad probably would need its own thread and even that probably does not make a dent in the overall site meta
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Post Post #2661 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:26 pm

Post by Tchill13 »

No but site wide mandatory policy lynching for a few months would. Knowing who's ever faked a guilty as a VT would help. Mods that HAD to have backup mods due to flaking for any given reason more than twice would also help.

I'm not one to criticise without offering answers but they'd be a bit extreme. Which town is extremely bad now so. Makes sense to me.
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Post Post #2662 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:27 pm

Post by Tchill13 »

There's too many players here who believe they're good to listen to anyone else. Your solo gambiters. There's too many players here who don't care to play unless they're scum, then unless they're a PR. People just flat out don't care here.
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Post Post #2663 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:54 pm

Post by T-Bone »

In post 2653, Tchill13 wrote:A question I have for T-bone is what action will be taken against espionage and other mods that just flake mid game? Is there a standard for how they should operate and is it met with accountability if failed?
We won't generally take action on an ongoing game, other than to replace the Mod.
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Post Post #2664 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:08 pm

Post by Tchill13 »

I was talking about afterwards. What happens if a mod that flaked wants to mod again? Anything?
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Post Post #2665 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:11 pm

Post by the worst »

Take a look at the ban announcements thread.
who's scum? i haven't read up yet but like, it's me
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Post Post #2666 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:32 pm

Post by Ankamius »

In post 2659, Tchill13 wrote:No i welcome it, especially from someone I've seen and I feel they're competent.


:oops:
Town has two jobs. Not being lynched is the most important. People tend to disagree. If no town is never lynched town will win. This is my issue with lurkers. It's scummy. It's easily avoidable. Good townies can easily play town. Not to mention you can't vote scum if you're dead. If enough townies can't vote scum scum win.
This is correct in a vacuum, but there are instances where it is not.

One thing that a lot of people are aware of but don't pay much attention to as town is general town perception. This is where the general headspace of the town as a whole is and is very likely the single most important thing to the game as a whole since that is what decides who gets lynched during the day and roughly how the game proceeds afterwards.

So yes, generally lynching scum when you can is optimal in most situations, but is that always possible? If you have a choice between two town reads, who do you lynch? The general town perception sometimes gets into a spot where your only options are to either accept that you're going to lynch town that day or you can try and fail to swing the game into a scum lynch.

That also applies to your own lynch; usually it is better to fight for your own life in order to avoid being mislynched, but that's not always correct. Sometimes it is in fact better to accept dying (such as if four other slots are going to be deathtunneled on you until you are dead) and your life is worth less than what your death would affect. It all depends on how the town's total perception is leaning at that particular time. Dying to guarantee the death of two scum is an easy choice.
The 2nd job is lynching scum, which is much more complex. Lynching scum DOES require less activity than being able to convey that you're town. You can easily piggy back off others logic. Scum can also lynch scum, so this doesn't make you town so to speak.

I'm just saying if you eliminate bad town practices then town will win more. It's common sense. Bad practices can't be eliminated here specifically for 2 reasons.

Meta is used to town clear people with bad practices. Lurking, tunneling, bad logic...
This is all pretty closely related and the big reason I make a big deal about the town's total perception.

Not everybody is going to be amazing in every game, the most active player, the MVP, etc. Different gamestates evolve each game based on the differences that happen from game to game and specific players wither or thrive in different gamestates. This is why I think meta isn't that great of a tool; most people are capable of pulling off the majority of things that scum or town can do in order to win, it just needs the exact right situation to occur first. This is ignoring players that just don't give a shit entirely as scum or town every time they roll it, because that's just not playing to the spirit of the game. Meta is very gray and a lot of people use specific reactions or actions people use in the past and directly apply it to the current game, which... doesn't work.

Is hard to say that towns just need to get rid of since of the negative things that drag them down because it's rarely just that; often there's something in game that's causing town to shut down and not function properly. Occasionally there's an outside source, sure, and occasionally there is a player that will always play very anti town every single game, but the majority of the time issues are firmly within the town for why town is not operating the way they should. I think the solution is less eliminating these bad practices and more encouraging town to try to function as a unit as much as possible.

This is not easy in the slightest with how vastly different many players in the playerlist will be, but I guarantee you that every single game where town dominated the scumteam nailed this down pat. It's the single strongest town tool there ever will be.
Mods justify over powered town by assuming town PRs will play as poor or worse than expected while assuming scum will play well. This is a never ending cycle of town playing worse and worse.

I'm sure someone thought that'd fix the inactivity issue for players that don't play when they draw VT. Well it takes activity to convey your town. Now you even have PRs that lurk so they're scummy enough not to beNK'D .

This site rewards inactivity. It rewards bad play in the for of town clears from meta. That's why town sucks here. Nobody is doing anything to fix it.
I agree that anti town players should be lynched more often or at least forced to do more in the game, but that's not a solution if there's an ingame reason for it. If there's 50 pages a day in a game, then there's no way in hell every slot is going to be engaged the whole way through. If there's a fight happening every few pages, since people are not going to want to deal with it. If town are running around with their heads cut off and make having a more deliberate conversation very difficult, not everyone is going to want to post a lot.

I think a good chunk of the issues is that people don't really understand the difference and that they're part of the cause. It's a very difficult thing to notice (and the insane ego from a lot of players, MYSELF INCLUDED in a lot of cases, are the single biggest offender of this), but I believe this is the fundamental cause of the problems with town winning on this site.

I've had a few very strong games since I returned from hiatus and this was the biggest thing I noticed; it's significantly harder to get town onto the right path when you're right and it's harder to see who's right when you're not. Towns have gotten significantly more chaotic over the years and it has driven town cohesion, and therefore town win rates, down.

And yet the egos have gotten even bigger.
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Post Post #2667 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:48 pm

Post by the worst »

anka is a n00b


(loljks she's my fav)
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Post Post #2668 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:53 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

One of the big issues is its sometimes hard to even tell who is lurking and just too busy to play.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #2669 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:34 pm

Post by Tchill13 »

In post 2668, Nero Cain wrote:One of the big issues is its sometimes hard to even tell who is lurking and just too busy to play.
agreedbut short of emergency... play the games you sign up for. Mod the games you sign up to mod. Replacements and backups are there for a reason. Should be a zero tolerance policy on this stuff. Scum can afford to lie and say they're busy. Doesn't justify lurking. Nothing does.
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Post Post #2670 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:58 pm

Post by Tchill13 »

great points from ank...

one town is always worth one scum. Which is why i self hammered this game. I feel that you're discussing a minor percentage of what actually happens (I agree with you on the situatiuons that are not as common fyi) BUT the issue is towns ability to not be lynched. I have pride about one thing in my game and one thing only. My ability to not be mislynched. It rarely happens short of a rush lynch while im not active or a fake guilty. This takes effort though. I'm assuming im considered hyper active on this site. I think that goes hand in hand with my ability to not be mislynched. It takes effort to be transparently town. Most players don't care enough to do this ON A REGULAR BASIS, these players become tools for scum to manipulate the overall game with. If more people made it harder for themselves to be mislynched then scum would actually have to work to achieve a mislynch.

"towns total perception" is a great way of putting it. This site is full of egotistical, selfish do-it-my-way players. I rarely see teamwork, ever. This already puts scum at an advantage because they are obviously working together. Of course you can't play well every game (something I always consider which i myself can't do) but I've seen repetitive bad play from certain ppl. Bad habits. If you eliminate bad practices you will do better on a game to game basis. In fact I'd argue the elimination of bad practices would breed teamwork since most, if not all of them, are based on an individuals activity or ego.

theres 50 pages every day 1 and nobody seems to understand that too much content is good for scum. repetetive arguments, good for scum.TUNNELING, even if tunneling scum sometimes comes off as stubborness and loses credibility because of that, good for scum. Any unneccesary info that will be unapealling to a majority, goood for scum. I'm guilty of this. I blow up threads. It's a byproduct of wanting to play the game as much as I do. It's something I'm working on because I realize scum can abuse that in some situations. It's hard for me to realize i'm wrong, but when i do i whole heartedly follow towns lead, or at least try to.

LYNCH liars, LYNCH lurkers, LYNCH solo gambit players.

If this doesn't work there should be a site wide black list of certain players. Just refuse to play with them if the mods can't ban them for play.

they'll get the picture. Nobody cares enough to try and fix it though. I GAURANTEE this would fix win rates. I'm not asking for one person to determine bad from good but im asking the community to do so. The community that won't work together to win a simple game in most case lol.
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Post Post #2671 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:03 pm

Post by MariaR »

Lynch liars is stupid imo. Lurkers depends on why said player is lurking. Solo gambit sure. Lying as town can be helpful as long as it's not doing what Nero did. Lurkers as long as they give some content should be ok unless you're talking about 1 liner 1 sentence type lurkers than sure.
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Post Post #2672 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:07 pm

Post by Tchill13 »

why is lynch all liars stupid? Can we agree that a majority of the time town lying hurts town more than helps?

If you allow any reason for someone to lurk, you're gonna get lurkers. "depends on why said player is lurking" is just the excuse scum will give you any time. ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY.

most town that lie are solo gambit.
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Post Post #2673 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:08 pm

Post by MariaR »

Can you give me some explains of lying that town has done so I can get a better idea by what you mean by lynch all liars? Because I think there's a dif between gambit lies and good lies
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Post Post #2674 (ISO) » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:09 pm

Post by MariaR »

Like if you have a report on a player out a dif result to try and catch them. Or lying about a read to get a reaction from a player etc etc
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