Mini Normal 2021: Game Over

[Nero Cain]

I never said I did?

[Tchill13]

For the record tho.
General feeling for me is that Gustavo, Nero, Tchill, Garmr, and so on, is mostly pots calling kettles black, in that all of you have displayed some issues. Not the same issues, but similar ones. In short, I'd recommend against thinking any of you hold a moral high ground.

That's fine. I'd expect nothing less from someone that made it clear bad play from town is balanced out by adding town PR's. Then expecting town PRs to under perform while expecting scum to meet or exceed expectations so you can justify the setup.

This is the first and only game I've ever taken action that was personally motivated. When my play is effected by stuff that's not in the game I take a step back, like I'm doing now, but I don't expect you or any high power at this site to agree with me. This site doesn't hold anyone accountable for their actions, whether it be mods or players. I place that responsibility solely on the people who run this site,people like you mastina. Town will never get better if things do not change. Yall can sit around the camp fire and act like some people are just so good at scum they change the win percentage site wide, I read that as a description of a player here alisae I think, or you can actually hold players accountable for bad play: lurking,tunneling, fake guilties. Instead yall want to town clear them because of their meta. Then you have the fact that some people don't care to play if they draw VT. They'll just use that game to play so bad that they'll be able to play scum easier here.

It's sad that no action is being done. That no accountability is being given to fix play here. This is a good site with good people and it works wonderfully. This is what lead to my "bad play" day 2. So thx for giving me a reason to put that done mastina.

I don't think I'm better than anyone. I don't think ik everything. I don't think the mods purposely run this site in a difficult manner. I just don't agree with how it's ran. Respectfully of course.

[Krazy]

As bad as town play was, the worst's slip was pretty bad.

The nature of mafia is that scum are punished significantly more for mistakes than town because they have fewer people. That's the nature of asymmetric games.

While I still think this setup is definitely townsided, I guess I can see why it wouldn't be "broken bad". I still stick by my "???" assessment of it tho. It doesn't feel like something that belongs in NY to me. This setup feels closer to something that should be in Mayfair.

[Nero Cain]

but fake tunneling a slot that you were town reading isn't going to change anything. I don't think tunneling is bad except when its wrong but a player doesn't know when he or she is wrong unless there's a clear or a flip. If anything, I think its up to the person being tunneled OR a indepdent 3rd party to just sit down and calmly explain why they are wrong and try to change their mind and see the error in their ways. This is rarely done, however.

Lurkers should be shot or policied ASAP. We agree there.

Most players like to play scum the most anyways and I think the culture here is pro-scum in general.

[Tchill13]

I'm not talking about this setup specifically I'm talking about the setup on an average basis.

[Tchill13]

but fake tunneling a slot that you were town reading isn't going to change anything. I don't think tunneling is bad except when its wrong but a player doesn't know when he or she is wrong unless there's a clear or a flip. If anything, I think its up to the person being tunneled OR a indepdent 3rd party to just sit down and calmly explain why they are wrong and try to change their mind and see the error in their ways. This is rarely done, however.

Lurkers should be shot or policied ASAP. We agree there.

Most players like to play scum the most anyways and I think the culture here is pro-scum in general.

I think when people asked for my read of oath I said she was town. I just "tunneled" to act like it lol. I never 100 percent pushed her lynch I just acted like I did.

[mastina]

While I still think this setup is definitely townsided, I guess I can see why it wouldn't be "broken bad". I still stick by my "???" assessment of it tho. It doesn't feel like something that belongs in NY to me. This setup feels closer to something that should be in Mayfair.

11:2 as an open, mountainous, has been considered site standard for balance of mountainous since before I joined. The math behind it is THAT old, but still holds.

The very same setup as a closed inherently tips balance towards scum. Town was thus given masons. This does indeed slightly townside it again, but with a scum rolecop able to mason hunt in addition to the night kill (and, mind you, I believe that it's a multitasking role cop, thus, could both kill and action), plus day talk which is traditionally valued as being (with smart play) almost equal to another scum member, it's not by a wide margin.

I'd estimate this setup as 55-45 town:scum. The cutoff for balance is, explicitly by Normal rules, 60%, so this setup is within the margin of balance.

As for two scum, I can cite the standards from when Minis were capped at 12 players: back in those days, it was INCREDIBLY common to see 10:2 games, because 9:3 was provably scumsided by the math alone. (Quick crash course: it starts on evens and towns have one less mislynch to spare.)

The final reason to allow the game:
Espeonage REALLY wanted 2 scum, in a game of a larger size. As the game reviewer, my job is to preserve the moderator's vision as much as possible, while within the boundaries of both balance and Normalcy. The setup passed both, so was approved.

Also, Tchill, will respond to your wall when home from work.

[RadiantCowbells]

11/2 open mountainous isn't balanced at all

[Garmr]

For the record tho.
General feeling for me is that

Gustavo,

Nero, Tchill, Garmr, and so on, is mostly pots calling kettles black, in that all of you have displayed some issues. Not the same issues, but similar ones. In short, I'd recommend against thinking any of you hold a moral high ground.

Only one of us is saying they played the game perfect lol.

[RadiantCowbells]

i

played this game fucking perfect

you're all shit

[RadiantCowbells]

not once this game did I vote someone who didn't flip scum

100% of my posts called scum scum and town town

I was on 0 mislynches

you all should goml

[the worst]

i

played this game fucking perfect

you're all shit

^^^^me

[Gustavo]

Never claimed to be perfect but I was a sum reading scum day 1 and then 2 townies got in my way. 2 townie who decided they wanted to play like scum.

That’s better than lucking your way onto 2 scum wagons like you did. You didn’t catch mumble or the worst. The worst was lynched cause he poe’d himself into a corner.

Garmr go play some newbie games if you are serious about continuing mafia. Good players shouldn’t give scum fake claims. They shouldn’t try to lynch obv town players either.

[Garmr]

Never claimed to be perfect

but I was a sum reading scum day 1 and then 2 townies got in my way. 2 townie who decided they wanted to play like scum.

That’s better than lucking your way onto 2 scum wagons like you did. You didn’t catch mumble or the worst. The worst was lynched cause he poe’d himself into a corner.

Garmr go play some newbie games if you are serious about continuing mafia. Good players shouldn’t give scum fake claims. They shouldn’t try to lynch obv town players either.

This was an example overall of how not to play mafia. Nobody played well except me.

You proved yourself wrong there.

1.You say you were scum reading scum day 1 but the reason you pushed them was being a liability as town and you didn't focus on them again.

2. I figured out mumble was scum through process of elimination. Never gave a town read to the slot. The worst is my only fuck up this game and he can tell you he had the hider fake claim set up before I came in all I did was bite the bait. Lucky I realised at the end of the day he was scum due to his misplay.

3. Which was the obvious town player I tried to lynch because it sure wasn't mememan. Also if it wasn't for the worst fake claim I would never of thought nero as scum which is why I pushed him last. Besides the game wouldn't of ended if we did lynch mememan and I would of figured it out anyway that the worst was lying.

Garmr go play some newbie games if you are serious about continuing mafia. Good players shouldn’t give scum fake claims. They shouldn’t try to lynch obv town players either.

I don't think you have the ability to talk. Especially when I was one of the biggest threats against scum in our last game that I was killed over confirmed masons.

When you're not death tunnelling masons you are outing yourself and your mason buddy.

Tell me who need to go to the newbie threads if they are serious about mafia.

Before mastina comments again

this isn't due to this game alone we are clashing.

[Garmr]

I’m sorry for my play. I’m definitely adjusting myself going forward. Going to take a more laid back approach and put my faith into others more.

Proved yourself a liar here.

Guess when you are the only screw up in a game you are more passive and not quick to push the blame onto others.

[Garmr]

Rant down sorry to everyone else this clash was more a personal thing between me and gustavo sorry people have to see it.

[Gustavo]

Garmr doesn’t know the definition of perfect? lol. Playing well =/= playing perfect. I never said I played perfect.

I messed up by claiming early but in reality that didn’t hurt town more than the play of tchill/you/Nero/yuri/etc.

Meme gets credit, he played quite well also.

I’m done here. Garmr is too stubborn to realize he is terrible at this game. I feel sorry for anyone who has to play with him.

[Garmr]

Garmr doesn’t know the definition of perfect? lol. Playing well =/= playing perfect. I never said I played perfect.

I messed up by claiming early but in reality that didn’t hurt town more than the play of tchill/you/Nero/yuri/etc.

Meme gets credit, he played quite well also.

I’m done here.

Garmr is too stubborn to realize he is terrible at this game.

I feel sorry for anyone who has to play with him.

The irony is strong with this one.

[Garmr]

Also noticed how you dodged your play vs my play in penguins.
If I played terrible in that game you would of retorted but you couldn't because you are intellectually dishonest.

Always blame others never yourself.

[Tchill13]

I'm honestly just waiting to have a discussion with mastina.

Garmr I wouldn't take anything gus has to say to heart. He can come off as arrogant but I honestly think it comes from a good place. Just roll with the punches. Your play wouldn't have mattered in the end in this dumpster fire.

[Krazy]

I think garmr and gustavo need a marriage therapy pt where they can play out their fantasies in private.

[Tchill13]

I think gus would just ramble and depending on the thickness of garmrs skin he more or may not take it well.

[Garmr]

I'm honestly just waiting to have a discussion with mastina.

Garmr I wouldn't take anything gus has to say to heart. He can come off as arrogant but I honestly think it comes from a good place. Just roll with the punches. Your play wouldn't have mattered in the end in this dumpster fire.

You are right. Probs should just ignore him.

[T-Bone]

This is probably a good place to stop the bickering. The game is over.

[Tchill13]

I'm just looking for civil discussion about site play, which I've had with mastina more than once. I feel that she finds me respectful. I'd hope so. Where would I need to post something like this where I can engage with actual conversation with people that actually run this place?