Mini-Normal 2070 is done

[Nero Cain]

pagetop

[GuyInFreezer]

>Game solved in page 60
>Game ended in page 111

>Still posting 7 pages later

[Tchill13]

I'm really just here for mastina at this point.

I'm usually not this toxic and I'm well aware of how it comes off. I apologize for that.

[davesaz]

Tactical replace outs or not, replacing out because being pressured is an unethical move regardless of the alignment.

I'm gonna go on the record here that for me it's a health thing when it happens, and allowing myself to become unhealthy over a game would be far more unethical than replacing out to protect my health.

[Tchill13]

I don't understand why ppl have the ability to replace back in. Replacing out is THE last resort.

[Jingle]

Also always lie about your role as town. And your results. IF town doesn't know anything the scum won't know anything.

Clearly wrong. The only correct way to play mafia is to quote your role PM in the first post. That way you're never mislynched.

[Jingle]

1v1 between two town roles--absolute worst possible case scenario for town roles possible, yes?

I mean.... No less so than a gunsmith getting a vig guilty. Which is a thing that the role gunsmith implies is possible in a setup. I submit that loyal as a modifier implies the capacity for a roleblocker just as much as gunsmith implies the potential for a vig or a mafia doctor. It's just a role that requires interpretation. The fact that cop doesn't require interpretation makes it a comparatively shitty role (as far as fun, not power) to loyal, tracker, or other investigatives.

Encryptors as one of the weakest scum PRs

Encryptors are amazing town utility because daychat is the norm. The ability to maybe take away scum's ability to coordinate is AMAZING. That even discounts the need scum has to protect that individual slot. Daychat itself is the amazing scum utility.

fite me

[Jingle]

I don't understand why ppl have the ability to replace back in. Replacing out is THE last resort.

They kinda don't, but no one realized at the time, afaict.

Once a replace-out request has been made public by the moderator, the player replacing out is to stop posting in the game.

The player is not allowed to replace back into the game

or rescind their request. If a moderator wants to allow any deviation from these rules, it must be stated explicitly in their rule set.

I actually wouldn't have a problem with replacing into a slot you'd replaced out of in certain situations, (You lose internet access and your previous slot requires replacement again 2 months down the line when you get it back) but it is explicitly against the rules.

As far as replacing out being the last resort, I 100% agree. Hence my opinion of the signup ban for repping out. It's not a punishment so much as insurance that means a player doesn't just sign up for 5 games and rep out of all but one because they're less fun. Sign up for what you can handle. If you can't handle what you've got because *reasons*, that's fine, just make sure to take the time to deal with whatever the problem is before signing up for more.

[Lycanfire]

encryptor is a full scum pr.

day chat is a full scum pr.

day chat is stronger than encryptor.

day chat should not be given for free. either there is a setup reason to include day chat or you're putting in a >encryptor into the game and it's counted as a scum pr.

people complain about bad towns but ignore power creep. it's okay, your scumteam probably won't collapse without day chat. ffffuck off.

[Lycanfire]

the thing about avoiding result tampering is again another imprint of mastina reviewing. if you're in a mastina game, assume your funny looking role can't be tampered with. i mentioned at the end of 2062 that sometimes you need to throw a curveball, but if that's all you throw you look really silly. if the prospects of a fake guilty are so devastating the setup is probably really bad.

[Jingle]

I include daychat in most of my setups because I think it tends to be more fun than not having daychat for the scumteam. I also balance with daychat in mind.

If day chat isn't in one of my setups (like the messenger based one I ran last year, for example) there's a reason for it, because, again, I think daychat is more fun than no daychat.

Basically, I'm arguing that I shift the baseline because I wanted to take a contrary opinion to mastina, mostly because I like to argue.

Fite me.

[mastina]

Which means town's only real power is... Communication, the ability to work with one another. And as you can see on site recently that is even at a very low point (I would hope). So my question is as a setup spec mod (not sure of the title)...

To be more precise, town has 3.5 tools at their disposal.
The .5 is that they are uninformed, which can be a tool in that a fundamental of scumhunting is searching for the difference between players who're uninformed and players who're informed; town are meant to identify the former and differentiate it from the latter.

The main three tools?

Their voice, their vote, and that they are the majority.

Two of those are not unique to the town, because scum also have both a voice and a vote--but it is the third which

makes

the two tools of voice and vote belong to the town in spite of scum having access to them; being the majority

causes

town's voice and vote to be their tools.

You can understand this by simple mathematics; statistically, because there are more town in the game, there are more town voices to be heard. With extra voices comes extra feedback, and with extra feedback comes extra theoretical potential to hone in and identify who the scum are. Statistically, because there are more town in the game, they are going to control the lynch.

Think of the math this way--on D1 of a mini normal, it takes seven votes to lynch.
Even if there's a scumbloc of three votes (which pretty much never happens on the lynchwagon), know what that means?
The D1 lynch was still controlled by the town, in majority.

Even with the scum all voting together at their strongest.
The MAXIMUM percentage of a lynch scum-controlled on D1 is 43%.
That's 57% town, at MINIMUM.
If it's 5/7 town, even better; 71% town.
6/7 town? 86%.
7/7 town? 100%.

57%, 71%, 86%, or 100%.
Regardless of which percentage it is, the town controls the lynch, the town controls the vote, more than the scum do, because of numerical superiority.

So the tools of the town aren't

exclusive

to the town (except majority), but by utilizing their majority, they become

owned

by the town.

And in site meta these days, usually you'll find that the town controls most lynches, and make most of the posts, as the scum active lurk and let the town eat themselves alive.

[mastina]

I include daychat in most of my setups because I think it tends to be more fun than not having daychat for the scumteam. I also balance with daychat in mind.

If you're looking for a fight with me on that you won't find one because I agree with that.

The problem comes when people

don't

balance with daychat in mind.

(Though, I do confess: sometimes, as a reviewer/designer, a game I review/design won't have it and I'll forget this fact; the resulting townsidedness of the setup would thus in part be because I forgot scum didn't have it. So I'm guilty of the opposite problem, on occasion. )

[mastina]

if the prospects of a fake guilty are so devastating the setup is probably really bad.

The thing about a false guilty is that it needs to be something that can be reasonably anticipated, where if you receive a false guilty you can reasonably deduce that it is not inherently necessarily a guilty.

If that ability is absent, then absolutely, yes, the setup is probably bad, because if the false guilty is that devastating it shouldn't be allowed unchecked.

Jingle raises a valid point about the idea of Loyal positing the possibility of roleblocks--I'm not sure if I fully agree with him, but in this case, it ultimately doesn't matter; the important part is that past-mastina when reviewing the game most decidedly did not, by virtue of not having thought of that angle.

Reviewers aren't all-knowing, and the angle of Loyal positing roleblocks didn't occur to me during review, whereas the angle of roleblocks fucking town over because of Loyal thinking they had a guilty they didn't, did. So from the viewpoint of past-mastina, the possibility of roleblock + loyal was a false guilty that was devastating--and thus, shouldn't be allowed unchecked, and why I vetoed the idea.

[Jingle]

I agree that godfather is more garbage-y than cop, fwiw.

And I would argue that the fact that I wasn't the only one who seriously considered a RB as a scumrole supports my opinion.

I will say that this game makes me intrigued as to the possibility of revisiting townsided setups from years ago in the new meta.

[chennisden]

encryptor is a full scum pr.

day chat is a full scum pr.

day chat is stronger than encryptor.

day chat should not be given for free. either there is a setup reason to include day chat or you're putting in a >encryptor into the game and it's counted as a scum pr.

people complain about bad towns but ignore power creep. it's okay, your scumteam probably won't collapse without day chat. ffffuck off.

i agree with this. people don't use scumchat as much as they should anyways.

[John Pierce Gantt]

I see that town won the game. Nice work, people.

First of all, my apologies for my sudden replace out like that. I had a sudden travel plan that was going to keep me occupied for a long duration of time. Unfortunately, (or fortunately, rather) it was cancelled.

Reading up on the game, I see that most of my suspicions were on spot. But then, I got distracted by false leads. For my cop actions, on hindsight it probably would have been better for me to just check my Mafia reads (Inferno Night 1, Skellen Night 2). I actually checked my targets because while I had a decent amount of confidence, deep down I feared that I would be wrong and I could have made a fool out of myself.

Few people mentioned my tone being weird. I hope it does not put me in any unnecessary trouble in my future games.

Apparently tchill seems to be quite mad over being mislynched in Day 1. Sorry about that. But as a cop, I struggled to find a reason to keep your role alive. When I asked you in Day 1 why I should not lynch you for your role, it was a genuine question.

I was wondering why RuiRui seemed to avoid interacting with me, but I guess it all makes sense now with her role.

Overall, it was a fun game and I wish I could have stayed until the end of the game.

[Tchill13]

Oh it's understandable from your pov. No love lost between me or you I was actually impressed with you JPG. thought you played well.

[Jingle]

FWIW, Tchill, I hold nothing against you. If you don't want to play in games with me I'll respect it though.

[Jingle]

I will say that I hope you change your mind, because from what I remember you were fun to play with in the past.

[Tchill13]

I'm not gonna black list anybody I was just heated.

I really don't black list players, I try not to start a soap box on a "moral high ground" (failed this time) and I don't personally attack anyone. I hope it's clear that I disagree with and hate an ideology, not RC or any other player themselves.

[Jingle]

Few people mentioned my tone being weird. I hope it does not put me in any unnecessary trouble in my future games.

New players just tend to be tonally off. It'll smooth out a bit with time, and a bit more with people getting used to you.

[Jingle]

Hey, if anyone wants to join a low-effort game, BoP 3 is in the micro queue right now. I have a backlog of games to run, and the sooner this one fires the sooner I can start pumping out fresh blood.

[Nero Cain]

How dare you advertise in my game thread!

[RadiantCowbells]

buy my product fuckheads