Mini-Normal 2070 is done

[Tchill13]

Exactly. It literally hurts your soul to take responsibility for even one thing.

I refused to call you scum also. I did however call chennisden scum.

But I should have called axe scum instead of chennisden scum even though axe was town and chennisden was scum.

That's what you're ultimately saying. I got lynched for reading axe correctly and reacting to your fake push on actual scum incorrectly.

Like LOL dude. Do you not see the issue with that?

I really just want to see how RC responds to this.

[Firebringer]

I was under the impression that players if town have no incentive to lie

Ok this explains everything.

Always lie. Fear and Ignorance. Carnival of Lunacy. The only true way to play Mafia.

I will cosign to this.

Also always lie about your role as town. And your results. IF town doesn't know anything the scum won't know anything.

[Firebringer]

I really just want to see how RC responds to this.

Why do you care?
RC isn't going to think about this in the same way you do, and you both don't have enough respect for the other where this is gonna be a respectful exchange and both of you are ingrained in your positions.

Like I get you have frustrations with him, if you think he is going to change or see this the same way you do, you are wasting effort man.

[GuyInFreezer]

I mean 2891 is a misrep.

Why am I playing mafia post-game

[Firebringer]

GIF that was a good post. I am gonna say you are town.

[Tchill13]

I really just want to see how RC responds to this.

Why do you care?
RC isn't going to think about this in the same way you do, and you both don't have enough respect for the other where this is gonna be a respectful exchange and both of you are ingrained in your positions.

Like I get you have frustrations with him, if you think he is going to change or see this the same way you do, you are wasting effort man.

I don't want him to change. I just want to see what he thinks about lynching me for correctly town reading axe. It's pretty funny.

[Tchill13]

How's it a misrep? I may have pushed rc as scum but when I gave my scum team he wasn't in it.

[Firebringer]

I don't want him to change. I just want to see what he thinks about lynching me for correctly town reading axe. It's pretty funny.

He doesn't see this the way you do and you seem to want to start a brawl my dude.

[GuyInFreezer]

Put yourself in his shoes and recollect what happened.

Let's say you are convinced that two people are scum bussing each other.
After you mentioned that, those two people magically stopped scumread each other altogether.

Do you think you would not scumread that?

[GuyInFreezer]

Literally 90% of the TvTs can be resolved by just putting self in other's shoes for a bit and see where they're coming from.

[Firebringer]

Why the hell are your shoes wet GIF?

[GuyInFreezer]

It's been rainy here recently.

[GuyInFreezer]

What, are you calling me scum having a cold feet?

[TvT ensues]

[Tchill13]

Put yourself in his shoes and recollect what happened.

Let's say you are convinced that two people are scum bussing each other.
After you mentioned that, those two people magically stopped scumread each other altogether.

Do you think you would not scumread that?

My point is that in the end axe and I read each other correctly and then we're scum read for it.

[chennisden]

mistakes happen

[chennisden]

tchill are you mad at me for hopping on your wagon?

[Tchill13]

Scum get a pass for any and all, actions in a given game. Gotta do what you gotta do to win.

[mastina]

Roleblocker doesn't interact unfavorably with the loyal JK. It probably doesn't give a false guilty (you only know you've failed if your target provably acted (an investigative) or they died. If your target dies, you now have confirmation that you were roleblocked.

Say the loyal jailkeeper targeted one of the investigatives.
The loyal jailkeeper was roleblocked.
The investigative claims a result.

BAM.

1v1 between two town roles--absolute worst possible case scenario for town roles possible, yes?

And yet it's fully possible with a Loyal Jailkeeper interacting with two investigatives and a roleblocker.

Thus.

Recipe for disaster.

[mastina]

Basically (I'll only say this once because I've had this discussion with mastina b4) setup mods expect town PR's to play as poor as possible and they expect scum PR's to play excellent which allows them to justify over powered town setups. Now mastina may disagree but that's fine and I respect her opinion.

It's not that I disagree, so much as you're using vastly different words than I would to convey a similar concept.

Mafia are, by their very nature, the INFORMED minority. The INFORMED part is the important bit; the scum, by their very nature as the informed minority,

know more about the game

. Because they know more about the game, their night actions will also be more informed. They are going to have a better grasp on the setup than the town will, they will have a better idea of what town roles are present than the town will, they will have a better idea of WHO the town's roles are than the town will, because as the informed minority they have access to that INFORMATION.

Town are, by their very nature, the UNINFORMED majority. The UNINFORMED part is the important bit; the town, by their very nature as the uninformed majority, know less about the game. Because they know less about the game, they are going to make night actions that are less informed--and as a result, more suboptimal than they otherwise should be.

So absolutely, yes. Towns underperform PRs from random chance because as they are uninformed, they lack grounds to make superior actions often.
Scum PRs overperform from random chance because as they are informed, they have grounds to make superior actions often.

[Tchill13]

Well that's at least a good explanation that I haven't thought of. Very well put. I guess maybe I just disagree on how much weight that holds when it comes to setup.

I do believe that's the best way to put it. Informed/uninformed... I like that.

[mastina]

Informed/uninformed... I like that.

It's classic terminology all too often lost in the newfangled lingo of the youngsters, but yet it remains such an important concept that it should never be lost.

The three strongest tools of the mafia are that they are informed (knowing more), that they are a minority (thus have a statistically smaller chance of being lynched by random odds and it's easier to form a coherent team dynamic; it's much easier to get three people working together than it is 7-10), and that they have the ability to remove a town player from the game every single night phase without input from the town (the nightkill).

None of these tools should ever be forgotten; none of these tools should ever be underestimated. As an example: Many people when reviewing games can altogether forget to factor in the power of the mafia's nightkill, for instance, thinking that a setup which would be balanced without it is fine and yet which when given said nightkill is horrendously scumsided because of how OP it is.

Another example: properly utilized daychat for a scumteam is disproportionately scumsided, because it allows them the chance to bounce ideas off one another in private in real time, coordinate, create drafts of ideas, figure out strategies on the fly, etc. Properly utilized daychat was at a time considered equivalent to giving the scumteam a

full extra member

because it was considered

that

strong a role, especially when hidden from the town. Nowadays because it's so commonplace (more games have scum daychat than don't) we tend to think of Encryptors as one of the weakest scum PRs out there, but back in the day it was up there with Godfathers and Roleblockers as being the role you'd most want to have on your scumteam.

Of course it gets more complicated than that the more you move away from the base game, but the basic mold is always there. The mafia have tools the town simply don't have at their disposal. Underestimate the power of those tools, and you run into scum stomps because the things you thought were enough for the town were woefully inadequate for what the scum were given.

[Tchill13]

Yeah I agree about the chat. I'd think that the nigh kill, day chat, informed and statistical lynch likelihood would follow that order.

Of course if you're taking all of this into consideration (especially the ebbs and flows of day chat strength) you must be taking into consideration the ability that you're average town has to work together, communicate and generate correct reads based off of communication. (which I'd assume is at an all time low, or close, maybe I have too high a standard for what a decent town would look like). With that being so weak in the common game here lately... That must also give a hand in giving town more power. So we've talked about 4 (maybe 5 depending on "town... Communication skills") reasons to give town MORE power (and all quite valid I will agree) but at some point it just becomes nauseating. And even too much power can cause a great deal of damage to town itself.

Is there anything at all that town has that gives setup spec the ability to give scum more power? Surely the lynch wouldn't count because that would directly be much smaller a strength than a scum controlled nigh kill.

Which means town's only real power is... Communication, the ability to work with one another. And as you can see on site recently that is even at a very low point (I would hope). So my question is as a setup spec mod (not sure of the title)...

Do you justify the setups by saying town has brought this upon themselves? (a lot of assumptions there ik)

And if so is there really any way to generate a better playing atmosphere for town on site to pull them out of this leaning on stronger town setups due to inability to work together?

[themilkcartonkid]

Which means town's only real power is... Communication, the ability to work with one another....

And if so is there really any way to generate a better playing atmosphere for town on site to pull them out of this leaning on stronger town setups due to inability to work together?

Allow for different playstyles than your own and understand the why behind solo gambits even if you hate them. RC just flat out incorrectly scum read a bunch of people, but they didnt rage quit and as such we were able to work it out. Sometimes you dont let a gambit go, like my last game eragon intentionally scumslipped for "reaction test" and yes, he was making up all his reaction reads because he was scum. I didnt think we should let that go and no one listened but that was MY fault (although I didnt think so at the time) because instead of trying to actually show how it was stupid, I just yelled at him about it. I'm not saying take a solo gambit lying down, but dismantle it instead of yelling at people.

[Tchill13]

Ppl don't care anymore. There is no dismantling a solo gambit. That kind of thing is encouraged.

And while I respect ppl with different play styles you're talking about something that's egocentric, toxic and not worth the risk for town.

[Nero Cain]

hi