Mini Normal 2119 [game over]

[MathBlade]

@micc, no problems at all - i didn't feel unfairly criticised at all. just wanted to make sure that i was clear on the scope of my normal game knowledge, for posterity. (i.e. very limited, but avoiding modspew as much as possible!)

i actually think you played really well. it's one of those situations where ico reaches the correct conclusion in a parallel universe; if you reread his posting through that last phase there were a few flashes of cognisance where he *nearly* had the solve. your self-defence and casing on menalque was really sound imo. ico's NKA was correct, menalque set up this f3. his mechanical solving was correct, you proooobably didn't perform the nk last night. unfortunately, (and i'm sure you noticed as well, but for the audience) there was very consistent confirmation-bias towards micc!scum through iconeum's d6 posting. but even when all the logic points a certain way, there's always the decision between voting with head or heart, and that's a lot harder to make a call on.

i suppose this is a really wordy/pretentious way of saying i also think your play was good this game and that was a surprisingly hard f3 for you to win.



pedit: lmfao sameee!

I forgot to mention the f3 lylo rule

It’s on mastina’s wiki iirc

The townier of the two players is probably scum if scum played well this game

[Datisi]

Let's all blame Datisi for forcing her menal!townread upon us all

> has an inno on Micc
> still hammers him

You mean the townread where I started voting him amd everyone was like hurr durr TvT? Ye ok

[Datisi]

Also my favorite post from my notes, which I made when the game was on page 4:

Do you have feels on bji yet?

a sorta townlean actually? his questions remind me of stuff that i used to look at and think "wow this is obvious bad/surface level/trap/loaded question this is scum" but then the person would turn out to be town? if that makes sense

i'm gonna quote this here so once bji flips scum we can all laugh at how trash i am at this game

and then when mena also flips scum we can laugh twice as hard

[Datisi]

Ok for real, gg, loved playing with everyone, sorry for bloccing the Cop ;_;

@ducky you can release my notes pls so people can make fun of them

[ceejayvinoya]

Also thanks to Ceejay/Bugs/Chem for their contributions to the win!

Arghhh should have staaaayed but I couldn't deal with that plank guy early on.

I didn't do much lol.

Awesome job bji and Menalque.

[the worst]

I forgot to mention the f3 lylo rule

It’s on mastina’s wiki iirc

The townier of the two players is probably scum if scum played well this game

I actually drafted this post referencing that, then deleted it because I felt it confused my point but yeah it's veeeery valid here.

[Chemist1422]

Also thanks to Ceejay/Bugs/Chem for their contributions to the win!

attempted contributions is probably a better word in my case

[Menalque]

Winning this is a nice thing to come back to

[Menalque]

I really enjoyed playing with everyone in this PL with one obvious exception

[the worst]

I'm SORRY ok???

[Menalque]

Oh, the moderator was absolutely the worst too

[AaronFrost]

Hey remember when I said to lynch Menalque on D2? That was pretty cool.

Also Icon... dude... how do you misread your result that badly.

bji you played well. I never really got to scum!you (I was pretty set on Micc/Menal and would've guiltied Menal if I'd live through N2).

gg everyone. Cool setup aliduck

[Menalque]

I really enjoyed your dead thread meltdown about me not getting suspected, AFF

[Menalque]

Fun fact: we nearly let you live bc we thought we’d be able to get you paranoia lynched

But then realised that even if you didn’t guilty us you’d just keep producing innos which would all be confirmed upon your death

[Menalque]

Also, for everyone wondering why I chose this lylo/saying it was a misplay

It was really very simple. At the end of the day, I decided “better the devil you know”. Math is/was a fairly unknown quantity to me, and I didn’t know how good he’d be at re-evaluating when it came down to it. Icon I do know, and I know how to play to him better, which is why I brought him.

(I also fucked up by not realising there’d be a distinction between “no result” and “negative result” which I thought meant I could push either, which obviously didn’t end up being the case)

[AaronFrost]

I would've guiltied you if I'd lived so it'd have been a 1v1 between us, which i was more than prepared for. Even if I was paranoia lynched, you get lynched the next day. Not sure how the rest of the game goes though.

[bji]

bji you played well. I never really got to scum!you (I was pretty set on Micc/Menal and would've guiltied Menal if I'd live through N2).

Thank you Aaron, I thought you were very good too, in fact so good that we had to kill you which we are lucky we did because you had a guilty ready to go.

[mastina]

Hi I reviewed this game.

[mastina]

I forgot to mention the f3 lylo rule
It’s on mastina’s wiki iirc
The townier of the two players is probably scum if scum played well this game

I mean, I do preach that but I wouldn't be able to tell you where I gave that advice.

I would be able to tell you different advice that'd have condemned Menalque though.
Occam's razor; which is simpler? That there is an unknown ungated mafia ninja which there is no evidence of who happens to be the last scum alive, or that the innocent result is an actual innocent?

The former requires you to invent a role that there's no evidence of existing and which turns the game hilariously scumsided (because, Iconeum investigated Micc multiple times while there was only one scum alive and got the same result, meaning that it would NEED to be a FULL ninja), whereas the latter is by far the simpler, more likely explanation which is stupidly simple.

[mastina]

Also, keep in mind. Ninja is a role that tends to not exist to counter followers/trackers; it is usually in there to fight a watcher. You can have a ninja to counter a follower/tracker, but it is usually incredibly gated and against a town that has significant strength behind it.

A game like this having a mafia joat with a ninja shot, a game like this having a 1x ninja, maybe maybe a 2x ninja, would be plausible, but a game like this having even a nonconsecutive ninja would be hilariously scumsided. And Micc was via the tracker/follower, ONLY possible to be an ungated Ninja. (Not x-shot, because of the late nights Micc was investigated and the number of times. Not even-night, odd-night, or nonconsecutive, because Micc was tracked two days in a row. Micc would have HAD to be a FULLY FULL, ungated in any way, Ninja, for him to be scum, and a fully full Ninja against a tracker/follower is a role that is incredibly unlikely to make it through a Normal review unless the town has some SIGNIFICANT additional power.)

[mastina]

(Basically. In Normal Games. 97.5% of innocent results, are actually going to be innocent results. Unless there is VERY strong reason to reasonably suspect otherwise, e.g. a game with a town gunsmith and town vig you can reasonably anticipate a mafia doctor and even then MOST innocents are going to be actual innocents.)

[mastina]

Btw, re;being NRG member reviewing this game--I admit that there is fault from me, mostly due to my approach.
As a secondary reviewer, I am usually a lot less thorough than when I am the primary reviewer. This comes from the obvious; as the secondary reviewer, it's more or less my job to take a back seat to the primary reviewer, in that I am more or less, not supposed to hold back the review by being heavily contradictory towards the primary reviewer. (Small differences are fine, obviously, but at the end of the day the primary reviewer's stance should take priority over the secondary reviewer's stance.)

I did chip in and give my thoughts, but I left the majority of the work to PenguinPower, which was probably a contributing factor to the lack of thoroughness and the oversight. I might've done most of the initial work, but if you get to read the review PT, the first page was mostly me while PP was busy, and then the second page was pretty much almost all PP giving his insight and giving it the pass which I was wanting due to him being the primary and trusting his judgement, more or less.

For what it's worth--I do think the setup is ~50/50 on balance, albeit swingy as fuck. It's just, a little unfortunate that I missed a couple of details which I normally wouldn't miss, and that we didn't get to fully discuss the roleblocker/ascetic/action investigation interaction. (I used to discuss that every review, but nowadays I normally don't unless I'm worried the mod will make mistakes on it; I didn't think that between Alisae and the worst that it'd be likely for a mistake to happen. Which I admit, is sloppiness on my part. Basically, perfect storm of unfortunate mindsets; being secondary means I'm more laxed, and reviewing for tw/Alisae meant I was more laxed. Purely a mistake on my part, so I again apologize for it.)

[Iconeum]

I would be able to tell you different advice that'd have condemned Menalque though.Occam's razor; which is simpler? That there is an unknown ungated mafia ninja which there is no evidence of who happens to be the last scum alive, or that the innocent result is an actual innocent?The former requires you to invent a role that there's no evidence of existing and which turns the game hilariously scumsided (because, Iconeum investigated Micc multiple times while there was only one scum alive and got the same result, meaning that it would NEED to be a FULL ninja), whereas the latter is by far the simpler, more likely explanation which is stupidly simple.

teach me

[Menalque]

Having thought about it, I still think the setup was townsided but not to the extent I did while play was taking place. I think it was a cool setup, but I there was just too much town power in it — like a key point was that I think we only got the slaxx lynch because a whole load of townies were like “nah, there is too much power for this all to be true” and I think without that lynch this game probably ends in a town win almost regardless of how well we played just due to the number of chances for town power to fuck us up.

I agree it’s swingy and I think part of the reason I thought it was so townsided was because of the wrong power dying on D1 but I don’t think that should be enough to doom your game in any circumstance and it very nearly did.

I think if you lost the follower/tracker and ascetic townie, and scum lost the encryptor, the informed of roleblocker, the activated ascetic but gained an extra shot of strongman then it’d be balanced.

[the worst]

Still maintain this was balanced/closer to scumsided than most normal games, there were a lot of ways to play more optimally once claims came to light, and agree with mastina's assessment that its eerily close to 50/50