Open 106 - Impotence Mafia (Game Over!) before 714

[StrangerCoug]

The ultimatum is because we are under a deadline situation and I see no advantage in waiting. Why do you think an unhelpful player should be tolerated?

I don't think unhelpful players should be tolerated, but I don't like the concept of an ultimatum in Mafia either. I buy your defense for the ultimatum, however, so I will

unvote

you. I'll look at reactions when I check on my other games.

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Vote Count:

ZazieR

(1) - yorgi

mrfixij

(0)

chenhsi

(0)

yorgi

(0)

EmpTyger

(3) - chenhsi, Zakeri, Caboose

afatchic

(0)

BlondeSoWut

(2) - ZazieR, Appassionata

StrangerCoug

(1) - BlondeSoWut

Appassionata

(0)

Zakeri

(0)

Caboose

(1) - mrfixij

Natirasha

(2) - Natirasha, afatchic

Not voting

(2) - EmpTyger, StrangerCoug

With 12 players alive, 7 votes will achieve a lynch.

Deadline for Day 1 is January 3.

[yorgi]

I proposed that a plan be considered which could, in your estimation, immediately narrow the list of potential mafia from 12 to 9. How is that not scumhunting? Who do you see as doing more scumhunting than me?

Why do we need to do this now? Isn't scum hunting more important then outing power roles? How does not taking 3 people out of the lime light help us find scum faster? What it does do is give scum targets to role block and kill first.

[StrangerCoug]

OK, looking at this EmpTyger/Natirasha deal again, I'm still looking at EmpTyger, but for the massclaim suggestion instead of the ultimatum. As I said, I see why EmpTyger's is going after Natirasha, and I'm not liking Nat either. I'm pretty sure at least one of these two people is scum at this point, but page 3 is too early to say anything definitive.

FoS: Natirasha and EmpTyger

[BlondeSoWut]

Unvote, Vote Appassionata.

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote, Vote Appassionata.

Any particular reason? We're clearly out of random voting.

[mrfixij]

Stranger, any particular reason for the double FOS while you have a vote available to be cast?

[StrangerCoug]

Not sure which one's really scummier than the other, but I'm leaning EmpTyger at the moment.

...Ah, what the hell.

Vote: EmpTyger

again.

[Natirasha]

EmpTyger, you are voting someone for something they haven't done. I've had 4 posts in this game. One, of course, is my self-vote which I do in every game. The second and third are content. This is my fourth. So, can you present to me some of this "anti-town behavior"?

Additionally, I find your "We're under strict deadline" speech to be a false dilemma. We have a month. That's more than enough time to get a lynch in a open game. Heck, I've finished open games in half that time.

unvote, vote: Emptyger

as a matter of principle.

[afatchic]

So that puts emptyger at L-2 on page 3 based on a matter of principle.

[yorgi]

So that puts emptyger at L-2 on page 3 based on a matter of principle.

I thought Nat was the only person to put a vote on principle.

FOS: Nat

Principle is not vote worry.

[chenhsi]

Hmm... this is interesting.

I disagree with mass claiming, although I don't mind claiming if people want me to.

[Appassionata]

I don't see the purpose of massclaiming at all.

I think it just seems to give the mafia a target after, and a 2/3 chance of stopping the vigilante.

Blondesowut-Why the vote?

[Zakeri]

The thing about the Massclaim is that it truely is a good idea. The problem however is that the long term effects begin weighing on the Mafia's side, while the shortterm effects weigh heavily on the town's side. Since this is an open set-up and we know how long we have until lylo, I propose that we do not utilize the plan until the day before lylo, to get maximized results from this while preventing the Mafia from confuse-lynching us.

Also, Question for the Mod:

Will you be posting who got shot by the blanks as well as posting who died?

[Natirasha]

I don't see the purpose of massclaiming at all.

I think it just seems to give the mafia a target after, and a 2/3 chance of stopping the vigilante.

If we have 4 claimed vigs, one is scum.
If we have 3 claimed vigs, the roleblocker acts as a doc-cop to the other 9 players.
If we have more than 4 claimed vigs, we essentially win the game because the mafia is retarded.

[EmpTyger]

chenhsi:
You placed a vote on me during the random stage: fine. But you’ve left it there without comment while ignoring some topics that are certainly more pertinent to my alignment. That’s a problem.

Likewise, you are being extremely non-committal regarding the massclaim: you “disagree” without reasoning but won’t argue against it if others support it. If you think it’s a bad idea, why would you go along with it?

Well, you don’t have to worry about me not voting yet any longer. I think I am ready.

Vote: chenhsi

---

SC:

OK, looking at this EmpTyger/Natirasha deal again, I'm still looking at EmpTyger, but for the massclaim suggestion instead of the ultimatum. As I said, I see why EmpTyger's is going after Natirasha, and I'm not liking Nat either. I'm pretty sure at least one of these two people is scum at this point, but page 3 is too early to say anything definitive.

Why did you eliminate the possibility that we are both innocent? And, specifically, what are you finding suspicious about my suggestion?

<snip>
I'll look at reactions when I check on my other games.

Did you find anything?

---

Appassionata:

I don't see the purpose of massclaiming at all.

I think it just seems to give the mafia a target after, and a 2/3 chance of stopping the vigilante.
<snip>

Which would you rather have: a cop who was guaranteed to get 3 results, or a vigilante with a drawback? That’s the purpose- that’s the worst case scenario.

And even then, the downside of the real vigilante being more exposed is offset by the fact that if the mafia try to chase the real vigilante, then they are not going after a more useful role, the roleblocker.

---

yorgi:

Why do we need to do this now? Isn't scum hunting more important then outing power roles?

Firstly, yes, we’d be doing is saying that there are 1 power role in 3 and 1 in 6 instead of 2 in 9. That’s hardly “outing power roles”. The reason to do this now is to gain a potential advantage of forcing the mafia to claim before they have coordinated a claiming strategy, while gaining information which makes it easier to find mafia.
Secondly, this is not either/or. A massclaim of this type is not mutually exclusive with finding mafia- and indeed, I’d say that who argues for and against- and how- to this proposal will be quite useful in that regard.

How does not taking 3 people out of the lime light help us find scum faster?

Um, I’m arguing that it does. It’s faster to find mafia in a set of 9 than a set of 12.

What it does do is give scum targets to role block and kill first.

It makes it easier for them to find the realvig, and harder to find the roleblocker.

---

Zakeri:
I want to think more about [62].

---

Natirasha:

EmpTyger, you are voting someone for something they haven't done.

Um, I haven’t voted you. So, don’t talk about “something they haven’t done”.

I've had 4 posts in this game. One, of course, is my self-vote which I do in every game. The second and third are content. This is my fourth. So, can you present to me some of this "anti-town behavior"?

(Post [57] is actually your fifth post)
1) Post [27] is the self voting. I’ve already explained how this is deliberately not helping the town. The fact that you do it in every game is immaterial.
2) Post [32] is “Actually, I'm making it my thing to claim serial killer in any massclaim situations from now on.”
3) Post [43] is asking if I was serious.
Post [43] also supported a mass-vig claim, which might have been considered helpful…
4) …had Post [45] not clarified that you were not basing this on any type of evaluation.

Now, your *sixth* [63] post does indicated that you’ve actually put thought into an aspect of this game which would help the town. Which, for the purposes of my ultimatum, I find satisfactory for now. I won’t hesitate to switch back to you if your play fails.

Additionally, I find your "We're under strict deadline" speech to be a false dilemma. We have a month. That's more than enough time to get a lynch in a open game.

Maybe, if the players are inclined to. However, I am very sure you’ve also been in games when the players don’t. Games in which the playesr, I don’t know , “get bored”, perhaps?

unvote, vote: Emptyger

as a matter of principle.

That principle being? (I’m going to regret asking this, won’t I.)

[Natirasha]

---

Um, I haven’t voted you. So, don’t talk about “something they haven’t done”.

Oh, well...

unvote

then. You can tell I didn't pay attention.

(Post [57] is actually your fifth post)
1) Post [27] is the self voting. I’ve already explained how this is deliberately not helping the town. The fact that you do it in every game is immaterial.
2) Post [32] is “Actually, I'm making it my thing to claim serial killer in any massclaim situations from now on.”
3) Post [43] is asking if I was serious.
Post [43] also supported a mass-vig claim, which might have been considered helpful…
4) …had Post [45] not clarified that you were not basing this on any type of evaluation.

Now, your *sixth* [63] post does indicated that you’ve actually put thought into an aspect of this game which would help the town. Which, for the purposes of my ultimatum, I find satisfactory for now. I won’t hesitate to switch back to you if your play fails.

Ok, then.

[quote="Natirasha]
Maybe, if the players are inclined to. However, I am very sure you’ve also been in games when the players don’t. Games in which the playesr, I don’t know , “get bored”, perhaps?[/quote]Theres a big difference between my play in Open games and Mini Themes. In open games, I am highly more likely to take risks, and post more simply because they are faster and generally take a different thought process that mini themes. And the game you were talking about, I was vanilla. I stop paying attention in games when I'm vanilla. I focus on the more-interesting ones.

That principle being? (I’m going to regret asking this, won’t I.)

I'm not sure myself.

[Caboose]

Unvote

I can see Emp's reasoning behind a vig claim. It would narrow the list to 9 suspects who the RB can investigate/block.
It's still not a good idea in the long run, but Emp proposing it isn't scummy.

Unvote, Vote Appassionata.

Reason, please?

This is an open setup. What’s your reasoning here? Why shouldn’t a massclaim be considered?

I'm just not a fan of massclaim in general. It kind of takes the fun and skill out of the game.

Something that I find odd:

Stranger, any particular reason for the double FOS while you have a vote available to be cast?

Not sure which one's really scummier than the other, but I'm leaning EmpTyger at the moment.

...Ah, what the hell. Vote: EmpTyger again.

So, you only place a vote right

after

someone calls you down on it? That's kind of weird to me and it kind of looks like scum cracking under pressure. Plus, the vote looks hastily placed.

Vote: StrangerCoug

[StrangerCoug]

SC:

OK, looking at this EmpTyger/Natirasha deal again, I'm still looking at EmpTyger, but for the massclaim suggestion instead of the ultimatum. As I said, I see why EmpTyger's is going after Natirasha, and I'm not liking Nat either. I'm pretty sure at least one of these two people is scum at this point, but page 3 is too early to say anything definitive.

Why did you eliminate the possibility that we are both innocent?

When two people are pretty high on my scum list, them both being innocent is simply not something I think about. I know that I could be completely wrong, and I may find people more suspicious than you two, but that's my current stance.

And, specifically, what are you finding suspicious about my suggestion?

It's already been addressed, so I didn't talk about it, but since you asked so nicely, I will: A vig massclaim supports the Mafia more than the town. To massclaim vig/not vig means that it takes at most two nights to completely shut down the vig. The first night, the mafia roleblocks one claimed vig and kills another. If the town gets a nightkill, the roleblocked vig has to be one of the two shooting blanks, so the best roleblocking target is the vig that the Mafia didn't do anything to the previous night.

<snip>
I'll look at reactions when I check on my other games.

Did you find anything?

Most people seem to be going pro-town about it.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP due to crosspost: Caboose, I'll address your case when I get back home. Have to look at apartments now.

[StrangerCoug]

OK, as promised, here's my response to Caboose:

Something that I find odd:

Stranger, any particular reason for the double FOS while you have a vote available to be cast?

Not sure which one's really scummier than the other, but I'm leaning EmpTyger at the moment.

...Ah, what the hell. Vote: EmpTyger again.

So, you only place a vote right

after

someone calls you down on it? That's kind of weird to me and it kind of looks like scum cracking under pressure. Plus, the vote looks hastily placed.

Vote: StrangerCoug

I didn't want to revote EmpTyger so soon after unvoting him, but given my vote on him was for the ultimatum against Natirasha and he explained why he felt it necessary, I removed my vote. I had nothing new to contribute to his massclaim idea, which is why I didn't originally addressed it. Yes, I revoted in response to mrfixij, but that was because I realized that I should have taken his massclaim suggestion into account before unvoting, which I failed to do.

[Crazy]

Also, Question for the Mod:

Will you be posting who got shot by the blanks as well as posting who died?

No. I will only give the name(s) of the player(s) that died overnight. Also, kills from the Compulsive Vig and kills from the Mafia will be indistinguishable.

[Zakeri]

I see. In that case, we are much much more susceptible to fakeclaims from the Mafia, meaning it would be terrible to do this during lylo. I propose that we follow Emptyger's plan once we lose 4 townies due to misvigging and mislynching.

Unvote: Emptyger

Since his idea is generally non-scummy, only the implication that it would help us now is. We should start by placing our votes on more unhelpful people.

Vote Natirasha

since he's already claimed to refuse to be of any help during the plan's activation, if not the entirety of the game.

Now, we’re in a strict deadline situation, so, let’s skip the unhelpful timewasting banter and cut right to the chase. Yes, I am familiar with your so-called meta. It is irrelevant. The town cannot win if it tolerates antitown behavior. [...] This isn’t personal. This has nothing to do with your pattern of behavior. (Except perhaps so far as my lack of patience in dealing with you). This is solely about this game- and how in this game you are so far not helping the town. And if you don’t help the town, I will vote you.

Up until now, I've tolerated anti-town behavior because I felt I could tell when it was just being unhelpful, and when it was being used against me, but after a few excursions on other sites, I've learned there is no difference between the two.

[Caboose]

I didn't want to revote EmpTyger so soon after unvoting him, but given my vote on him was for the ultimatum against Natirasha and he explained why he felt it necessary, I removed my vote. I had nothing new to contribute to his massclaim idea, which is why I didn't originally addressed it. Yes, I revoted in response to mrfixij, but that was because I realized that I should have taken his massclaim suggestion into account before unvoting, which I failed to do.

Why is Emp's suggestion of vig claim scummy?

[Natirasha]

Vote Natirasha

since he's already claimed to refuse to be of any help during the plan's activation, if not the entirety of the game.

Where did I ever say this?

[StrangerCoug]

I didn't want to revote EmpTyger so soon after unvoting him, but given my vote on him was for the ultimatum against Natirasha and he explained why he felt it necessary, I removed my vote. I had nothing new to contribute to his massclaim idea, which is why I didn't originally addressed it. Yes, I revoted in response to mrfixij, but that was because I realized that I should have taken his massclaim suggestion into account before unvoting, which I failed to do.

Why is Emp's suggestion of vig claim scummy?

I answered this already. Post #67.