Open 106 - Impotence Mafia (Game Over!) before 714

[EmpTyger]

ZR has posted in numerous other games the past 4 days, while lurking here.

---

Natirasha:
No, the lie was that you said you had a reason, then said you didn't have one. Now you're trying to essentially say, "jk it was actually OMGUS". Which (even if you did think I was voting you) is (a) not a protown principle for voting and (b) contradicts your [65] when you said you weren't sure what your principle was.

---

Zakeri:

Okay, you seem to be missing the point. The plan is a good one, but implimenting it now means that Scum can easily recover, take out our vig, and go on their merry way.
<snip>

Wouldn't it be easier for the mafia to recover if they get a chance to coordinate their claiming strategy? Today they may not have, but given how it's been discussed today, they will definitely have by tomorrow. That's the major sticking point I have with waiting.
(Well, also, a lack of confidence that the town would still go through with it depending on who's left around to argue for it.)

---

SC:
I'm not sure whether you're reaching to find reasons to consider me more suspicious than Natirasha, or bending over backwards to find reasons to consider Natirasha less suspicious than me.

<snip>
I don't like how Natirasha acted, but probably because I'm against massclaiming vig/non-vig on Day 1.
<snip>

So, you think Natirasha is suspicious- but vote me for voting him. Then, when that doesn't work, you say that the massclaim is more significant, and vote me again- but you just said that Natirasha's reaction to the massclaim was also antitown.

<snip>
It's very possible for townies to have bad ideas. Miserable ideas, even. But EmpTyger admitted that he didn't think it through all the way before bringing it up, and he should have thought it through all the way.

I *strongly* disagree. To take an extreme example: in lynch-or-lose, then, you’d argue that a player should just cast a vote when they think they’re ready, and do nothing- no discussion of thoughts, no seeking of feedback until then? Of course not.
No, it is antitown to do nothing until you’re sure. That is how mafia get to not commit to anything, giving them maximum potential opportunism.

I understand you here, but I don't remember saying town wasn't allowed to think out loud; in fact, if thinking out loud was forbidden, this game would go nowhere.

You don't remember? Um, I *quoted* you saying it. As I just did again.

And, incidentally, you can't just wave your hands and say "I'm doing something that doesn't make any logical sense but I can't say why." It didn't work for McCarthy.

---

mrfixij:

I think it's interesting that dumbblonde wanted info out of two lurkers who both stepped forward on P3 to say no to a massclaim and then step back into the shadows. I'm not entirely certain what it means yet, but I do think it's noteworthy.

This is awfully hedgy. Noteworthy how?

---

Caboose:

<snip>
I don't think Nat has been anti-town today thus far.

Not at all? I can see making a distinction between useless and unhelpful and antitown (not that I agree, mind you), but lying about the reasoning for a vote seems like it would be squarely on the side of antitown. How don't you think so?


-----

Vote Count:

ZazieR

(1) - yorgi

mrfixij

(0)

chenhsi

(1) - EmpTyger

yorgi

(0)

EmpTyger

(1) - chenhsi

afatchic

(0)

BlondeSoWut

(2) - ZazieR, Appassionata

StrangerCoug

(1) - Caboose

Appassionata

(1) - BlondeSoWut

Zakeri

(1) - mrfixij

Caboose

(0)

Natirasha

(3) - afatchic, Zakeri, StrangerCoug

Not voting

(1) - Natirasha

With 12 players alive, 7 votes will achieve a lynch.

Deadline for Day 1 is January 3.

Prodding ZazieR, chenhsi, and Appassionata

[StrangerCoug]

SC:
I'm not sure whether you're reaching to find reasons to consider me more suspicious than Natirasha, or bending over backwards to find reasons to consider Natirasha less suspicious than me.

Both of you have acted suspicious.

<snip>
I don't like how Natirasha acted, but probably because I'm against massclaiming vig/non-vig on Day 1.
<snip>

So, you think Natirasha is suspicious- but vote me for voting him.

How freaking hard is it to understand that I originally voted you for the ultimatum itself and I would have reacted the same at that point if you had issued an ultimatum against any other player in the game!?

Then, when that doesn't work, you say that the massclaim is more significant, and vote me again- but you just said that Natirasha's reaction to the massclaim was also antitown.

Hence why I've looked at both of you.

<snip>
It's very possible for townies to have bad ideas. Miserable ideas, even. But EmpTyger admitted that he didn't think it through all the way before bringing it up, and he should have thought it through all the way.

I *strongly* disagree. To take an extreme example: in lynch-or-lose, then, you’d argue that a player should just cast a vote when they think they’re ready, and do nothing- no discussion of thoughts, no seeking of feedback until then? Of course not.
No, it is antitown to do nothing until you’re sure. That is how mafia get to not commit to anything, giving them maximum potential opportunism.

I understand you here, but I don't remember saying town wasn't allowed to think out loud; in fact, if thinking out loud was forbidden, this game would go nowhere.

You don't remember? Um, I *quoted* you saying it. As I just did again.

And, incidentally, you can't just wave your hands and say "I'm doing something that doesn't make any logical sense but I can't say why." It didn't work for McCarthy.[/quote]
Damn it, you got me there.

[Appassionata]

I see. In that case, we are much much more susceptible to fakeclaims from the Mafia, meaning it would be terrible to do this during lylo. I propose that we follow Emptyger's plan once we lose 4 townies due to misvigging and mislynching.

If four vanillas are lost, can't all the mafia just claim vig? It seems the ideal time for a massclaim, if any, is 1 vanilla lost.

Wouldn't it be easier for the mafia to recover if they get a chance to coordinate their claiming strategy? Today they may not have, but given how it's been discussed today, they will definitely have by tomorrow. That's the major sticking point I have with waiting.
(Well, also, a lack of confidence that the town would still go through with it depending on who's left around to argue for it.)

What do you mean by recover? And why would they have to go through a claiming strategy. Wouldn't the mafia have to claim vanilla day anyway?

How freaking hard is it to understand that I originally voted you for the ultimatum itself and I would have reacted the same at that point if you had issued an ultimatum against any other player in the game!?

I don't understand what's wrong with an ultimatum.

[yorgi]

yorgi:
Why [83] ignoring Zakeri’s [71], which says the opposite?

How is what I said opposite of Zakeri's post. She stated not today and more townies dead doing a mass claim. You are stating claim today. I disagree with you and agree with her.

[yorgi]

Also SC: I'm confused by one thing reading over you and Cabosse. Are you stating you believe Nat is scum? If so or not can you stop defending him because I get the scum feeling of protecting there scum buddy in some of your post when you do defend him. Nat has a mouse and keyboard and can answer for himself.

[StrangerCoug]

Also SC: I'm confused by one thing reading over you and Cabosse. Are you stating you believe Nat is scum?

Yes.

[Zakeri]

---

Zakeri:

Okay, you seem to be missing the point. The plan is a good one, but implimenting it now means that Scum can easily recover, take out our vig, and go on their merry way.
<snip>

Wouldn't it be easier for the mafia to recover if they get a chance to coordinate their claiming strategy? Today they may not have, but given how it's been discussed today, they will definitely have by tomorrow. That's the major sticking point I have with waiting.
(Well, also, a lack of confidence that the town would still go through with it depending on who's left around to argue for it.)

Any Mafia worth their salt talks to each other whenever possible. From your previous experiences as Mafia, what is there to talk about before the game starts and after the greetings? Personally, Claiming Strategy is one of the only things I was able to discuss, and that was during closed set-ups. Open set-ups, it's a lot easier to make up a strategy that works.

They've already had a chance to co-ordinate their claiming strategy, and activating a plan when the mafia benefits most from it just because they "

may not have

" a plan of their own is a completely weak reasoning for doing so.

[mrfixij]

It can, however be said that if mafia doesn't have a claiming strategy, they will tomorrow. While I don't think a claim is prudent, I also think that speculating on what scum should/shouldn't do at this point in time where a massclaim is a possibility but not a certainty, and we don't know if scum has a strategy set in stone, is a very scummy action. I'd really rather not play the WIFOM game with people saying what scum is likely to do in the event of a massclaim. I personally don't support it, but if we're going to have one it should be without much more public speculation in regards to scumgain.

[Caboose]

It doesn't and it never has. It mattered that Emp gave an ultimatum period. Why is this still unclear?

So the "24-hour" thing in Emp's ultimatum was the scumtell?
I can't read your mind SC.

Show me where I personally am giving another player an ultimatum.

You putting your vote is an implicit ultimatum, pretty much saying "Scumhunt or die." I fail to see how Emp's making his ultimatum

explicit

is a scumtell.

To be grammatically correct, the fewest townpoints pretty much. I generally equate anti-town with scummy unless otherwise is obvious.

Personally, scummy gets my vote over unhelpful.

Yes, whether I like them or not.

What's random voting for, then?

Now, as to Nat:

EmpTyger, I understand you hate self voting, me, and jokeclaiming, but are you serious.

I, too, support a mass-vig claim.

Not a useless post. He expresses support for vig-claim and calls out Emp for the ultimatum. While not a scumtell, this post isn't useless.

EmpTyger, you are voting someone for something they haven't done. I've had 4 posts in this game. One, of course, is my self-vote which I do in every game. The second and third are content. This is my fourth. So, can you present to me some of this "anti-town behavior"?

Additionally, I find your "We're under strict deadline" speech to be a false dilemma. We have a month. That's more than enough time to get a lynch in a open game. Heck, I've finished open games in half that time.

unvote, vote: Emptyger as a matter of principle.

Again, not useless. Asks about Emp's reasons and intention of voting. However, he does fumble around with his own reasons to vote Emp, which is quite suspicious.

[StrangerCoug]

It doesn't and it never has. It mattered that Emp gave an ultimatum period. Why is this still unclear?

So the "24-hour" thing in Emp's ultimatum was the scumtell?

The 24 hour thing does have to do with my interpreting it as scummy, yes.

Show me where I personally am giving another player an ultimatum.

You putting your vote is an implicit ultimatum, pretty much saying "Scumhunt or die."

OK then, we have differing opinions on what does and does not constitute an ultimatum.

Yes, whether I like them or not.

What's random voting for, then?

Random votes help get the game started; therefore, random votes ≠ fluff posts. If there's no content and no purpose for it, then it's fluff.

[Caboose]

The 24 hour thing does have to do with my interpreting it as scummy, yes.

It's still not a scumtell. But it is really scummy that you're jumping on Emp for something that is not a scumtell. Plus the fact that you fencesit between Emp and Nat, plus the fact that you vote hop whenever prompted to do so is scummy.

...but lying about the reasoning for a vote seems like it would be squarely on the side of antitown. How don't you think so?

Nat's post admitting that he was lying about his vote came

after

my post that you quoted. I do think that Nat's lying about his reason is anti-town, however, I failed to notice this post before.

You caught me on the not paying attention. I coulda swore you vote me though...

On the lying about my reason, the principle was you were voting me, I suppose.

[chenhsi]

Recieved prod. Promise to post in more detail sometime tomorrow.

[StrangerCoug]

It's still not a scumtell. But it is really scummy that you're jumping on Emp for something that is not a scumtell.

I interpreted the ultimatum as a scummy kind of pushy. Making demands may not be scummy, but I think being pushy like that is.

[Appassionata]

Whats the difference between making a demand and being pushy?

[StrangerCoug]

Whats the difference between making a demand and being pushy?

Making a demand is "Do this or else." Being pushy is being bossy. You don't have to make a demand to be pushy.

[EmpTyger]

Lurkercheck:
ZR hasn’t posted since Thursday, despite posting often elsewhere onsite.
chenhsi hasn’t posted since Friday (except to say on Monday that he’ll post on Tuesday- which he didn’t), despite posting onsite in the meanwhile.
afc hasn’t posted since Sunday, despite posting often elsewhere onsite.
BSW hasn’t posted since Sunday, but hasn’t posted onsite since (but since this is an obvious alt account, that’s meaningless).

---

Appassionata:

<snip>
What do you mean by recover? And why would they have to go through a claiming strategy. Wouldn't the mafia have to claim vanilla day anyway?
<snip>

“recover” was Zakeri’s term, but to me:
The mafia will be immediately disadvantaged by the claim- the “recovery” would be however they presumably respond. (If they don’t, then it’s a moot point.)
As for the other questions, um, are you really asking me to publicly discuss how the mafia could most advantageously claim?

---

yorgi:

yorgi:
Why [83] ignoring Zakeri’s [71], which says the opposite?

How is what I said opposite of Zakeri's post. She stated not today and more townies dead doing a mass claim. You are stating claim today. I disagree with you and agree with her.

Um no. I was in a rush, so I didn’t spell it out, but:

I see. In that case, we are much much more susceptible to fakeclaims from the Mafia, meaning

it would be terrible to do this during lylo

. I propose that we follow Emptyger's plan once we lose 4 townies due to misvigging and mislynching.
<snip>

While I appreciate Emp's point of view I disagree with it. I just think all he it does is help the scum. I agree that a mass claim would be in order later in the game.

Most likely lylo

or just before lylo depending on number of vig's alive in game.

---

SC:
Okay, I think you’re just making your reasons up as you go along. It’s gone from “threatening to vote Natirasha” to “making an ultimatum” to simply “being pushy”. And from “suggesting a massclaim” to “not thinking something all the way through” to simply “thinking out loud”.

I want to you to lay out your complete case against me, now.

Not just a list of what I’ve done; I want an explanation of why you think what I’ve done is suspicious. Because that part keeps changing. (And I wish thematically I could make this an ultimatum, but at least while chenhsi is deserving of vote, I have nothing immediate to back it up with.)

And yorgi just brought up another good point:

Also SC: I'm confused by one thing reading over you and Cabosse. Are you stating you believe Nat is scum? If so or not can you stop defending him because I get the scum feeling of protecting there scum buddy in some of your post when you do defend him. Nat has a mouse and keyboard and can answer for himself.

You’ve only attacked 2 people all game: me and Natirasha. And yet, with every attack of me, you’ve explicitly defended Natirasha.

[StrangerCoug]

Okay, I think you’re just making your reasons up as you go along. It’s gone from “threatening to vote Natirasha” to “making an ultimatum” to simply “being pushy”. And from “suggesting a massclaim” to “not thinking something all the way through” to simply “thinking out loud”.

I want to you to lay out your complete case against me, now.

Not just a list of what I’ve done; I want an explanation of why you think what I’ve done is suspicious. Because that part keeps changing.

Will do:

I’m considering an immediate massclaim of vigilante/not-vigilante. Still tihnking through, but the way I see it:

1) We force the mafia to claim before they have a strategy.
2) The mafia don’t learn the identity of our powerroles. (The real vig is masked in 2 “vanillas”, the roleblocker is masked by 5 vanillas.)

Vigilantes are power roles. The benefit to the Mafia is that they'll eventually find out who the vig is by process of elimination. The odds of the town roleblocker hitting the Mafia roleblocker isn't very high mathematically, and I fear that the vig shooting real bullets will be found and even possibly dead before the town RB locates the Mafia RB. Which is why the consensus is that your idea is bad. The Mafia want the actual vig dead before the Mafia RB is blocked himself, do they not?

Natirasha:
I'm giving you 24 hours to convince me not to vote you.

The pushy ultimatum. Again, being pushy is scummy.

While I'm at it, prove that it mattered to me that your ultimatum was against Natirasha.

The ultimatum is because we are under a deadline situation and I see no advantage in waiting. Why do you think an unhelpful player should be tolerated?

OK, I bought this. For me to attack this, therefore, is invalid.

[yorgi]

SC you seemed to miss the point of my post

Also SC: I'm confused by one thing reading over you and Cabosse. Are you stating you believe Nat is scum?

If so or not can you stop defending him because I get the scum feeling of protecting there scum buddy in some of your post when you do defend him.

Nat has a mouse and keyboard and can answer for himself.

Also EmpTyger gets the point I'm trying to make about your post on Nat. You say he is scum then defend him. What kind of person does this that is town?

unvote:
vote: SC

I get this feeling you are scum buddies with Nat and trying to use Emp as the scap goat.

@Emp: I missed the terrible to do a lylo comment from Zazie. I don't know if it is terrible to do then or not. I think doing a claim now is terrible idea. I do see a problem we will most likely run across but I would rather keep that thought to myself for now.

[StrangerCoug]

I remember saying that I think Natirasha and EmpTyger are scum independent of each other.

[Caboose]

Vigilantes are power roles. The benefit to the Mafia is that they'll eventually find out who the vig is by process of elimination. The odds of the town roleblocker hitting the Mafia roleblocker isn't very high mathematically, and I fear that the vig shooting real bullets will be found and even possibly dead before the town RB locates the Mafia RB. Which is why the consensus is that your idea is bad. The Mafia want the actual vig dead before the Mafia RB is blocked himself, do they not?

Why is this part of your "case" on Emp? We've agreed that it's a bad idea, but I contend that it's not scummy. It

does

have pros and I don't believe that it's a scum tell that Emp threw that idea out.

The pushy ultimatum. Again, being pushy is scummy.

No, it's not. EmpTyger's ultimatum doesn't give me any kind of scum vibes, and it now sounds like you're pulling something out of your rear end.

[Natirasha]

I remember saying that I think Natirasha and EmpTyger are scum independent of each other.

Um...how? You realize there is only one scum faction, right?

Vote: SC

Honestly, your case is riddles with holes, and you seem to defend me while saying I'm scum

while defending EmpTyger and saying he's scum

.

[StrangerCoug]

I remember saying that I think Natirasha and EmpTyger are scum independent of each other.

Um...how? You realize there is only one scum faction, right?

Yes. What I mean by you two being scum independent of each other is that I think you two are scum for different reasons and I see no connection between you.

[Appassionata]

Sc - I disagree with you when you say "pushy is scummy". Also, how is the idea of a "mass-claim" scummy, it has it's logical parts.
I don't see a case on either Natarisha nor EmpTyger...

[Crazy]

Prodded BlondeSoWut. Afatchic actually hasn't hit 72 hours yet (though he almost has). I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and prod him if he hasn't posted by the time I get on tomorrow.

I prodded ZazieR on Monday. She never picked up the PM. I've given her a final warning. If she does not post in the next 24 hours, I'll look for a replacement.

[StrangerCoug]

Also, how is the idea of a "mass-claim" scummy, it has it's logical parts.

It benefits the Mafia more than the town.