Mini 1997: The Clownspiracy (Game Over!)

[StefanB]

VOTE: Bujaber
I have heared he is allways scum (and was scum with me in one game)
Hello Archwing again. The rest of you I don't know.

[StefanB]

Maki: Real claim? Why are you a miller?

[StefanB]

Nameclaim? Normally there is a reason why someone is a miller, that is hinted in the role-PM.

[StefanB]

Hm, somethink is fishy about that.
Why is Krusty a miller?
Why does Maki not know the name of her own role? This is clearly readable in my PM.

[StefanB]

And why would she do any of this as scum?
P-edit: And nice tantrum.

[StefanB]

Okay lets see what happens.
Interesting that no one else really reacted to it. But one was interesting:
Ras: Why did you vote Maki, but not react to her claim?

[StefanB]

Brass: If I follow the logic, we are allready at L-7, the question is why is other than Kokichi.

@Mod: Could it be that you have a mistake at your votecount, shouldn't Maki be at L-6?

Wh4t, GE: Interesting that LAME (which I don't disagree with I am not funny) is the point you are stresing.
And you don't think that the question why Maki is a miller could give us some hint about the scumteam?

P-Edit: And I will promise to not be on a townCW this time. Hello Archwing.

[StefanB]

UNVOTE: Bujaber

Wh4t:
Okay I googled Lamist so I understand now what you mean sorry for the misunderstanding I thought it came from lame.

If you believe I am scum, why is the point that someone sheeps you to my waggon so suspicios?

I consider that why is Krusty a miller may not help now, but I think the question, can be important later.

Since I am going reverse alphabetic, I started there because I thought I had more than I had.

[StefanB]

Ras Has 33 post, content:

i think it's best to ignore the claim for now, vote was rvs

at last for the first 12 votes, am I missing something?

I figured out why this game feels a little weird. Usually there's both scumhunting and townhunting/cohesion, but here it's like all scumhunting.

That is somethink else that I found interesting, how much do people activly townhunt in this game on the first 24 hours, for me that is the moment when my reads are very smal.

Okay there are some reads, but for this many posts there is very little substance.

VOTE: Raskolnikov

Can be that I am chancing my mind when I am true with every player.

[StefanB]

Kokichi: Very weird game.
First post. Ugh.
The vote for Arch is weird, because his(Kokichi) first post at last implied he was not town.
Scum-lean

Gamma:
You don't think I townread him.
Very little substance.
Has he even really started playing the game?

Bras:
Okay content.
Gut says townlean.
I found the policy lynchdiskusion weird. I don't see anything in his posts that would lead in that direction.
Is there any history I don't know?

I will not coment on Kaito because there is not much to coment on.
Maki is fine, I am waiting what she does when she can do whatever she wants.

The others need more words, so break now.

[StefanB]

Actually

Unvote

:

I don't know how I feel about Beefster pushing it and Archwing following.

[StefanB]

Archwing: Second version I did delete the first somehow

all I know is that brassherald might be a PL, apparently he can be awkward af, so be wary i suppose?

Why do you think he is a PL? I don't understand that.

maki how do you feel about rolling miller this game? have you ever played as miller before?

I will go back to defend myself about my treadment of the millerclaim (Preview: I am rusty on chances of side-meta regardless a role I haven't seen since 2012)
but why those questions?

124 gives me pause. Why did you when you were engaged go back to a vote on a person who hadn't posted at this time?

P-Edit: I looked at Koki, I have seen weird towncleams but not this claim, which was strange. Why don't you exspect people to react different?

[StefanB]

Brass: Not confortable there. It is not end of the day. But process of elimination.

Archwing no. I am starting to be more suspicious here, but not enough to make this a priority.
Beefster, Gamma, Kaito: No read there, all not very much in the game (Yes Gamma is posting may get more soon)
Maki: That would be a paranoia-lynch (Actually the beloved which I think will not work in Lylo is scarier than the miller) but no.

You no not interested.

Who: I remembered him worse than he was, I disagree with him, but no reason to lynch here.

BuJaber: I will address him later, but I don't think that he is a lynchcandidat.

Cedric and Kiana (will have to be very careful not to confusse all the players with Anime-names, sorry If I do): Both are still on my list for closer inspection, I am not sure what to make of them.

That leaves Kokichi and Raskolnikov. Both would be at the moment my lynch-candidates if I have to choose. Perhaps more Raskolnikov because Kokichi is stated by some players who know him to not be that unusual. (@all: Please tell me he isn't a difficult to read VI)

P-Edit: I agree with Cedric re cop-play. This play safed us in the game Archwing mentioned earlier.
Btw: What is the connection between all the anime-players?

[StefanB]

And the rolefishing:

I didn't rolefish!!!!!!!!

I asked if the claim was real or a joke. (We were in RVS and I don't know the players involved)
I asked for a name with the claim and if there was a reason why this person is a miller.

I have only very old meta on millers. My main meta is unfortunatly tigereaten. And if I remember correctly as a miller I was grilled more than once about the last point. (It was a soccer-Upick and I chose a German player, but the mods were fans of England)
I thought those question as standard. I see now that my plan is outdated in that fashion.

Then I asked why Maki did not remember the name of her role.

Can any of you who are stating I was rolefishing how any of this was going after the role? What is the reason for a potential mafia-me to do that?

[StefanB]

Bujaber short:

Why the speculation about Jester in a normal game (Would have been more interesting if GE hasn't posted this)

Pedit - oh forgot stefan: didn't like his opening post RVS means we ignore most of the post but focus on the kittle things. If it was a joke he's making about me always being scum why would he feel the need to state that I was scum in one game he was also in? A joke is a joke doesn't need to be backed by evidence. If he is serious he's just wrong and would imply his RVS post isn't and RVS post which is just scummy too.

Okay, please that is completly stretching. We have allready established humor isn't my strong suit. (So what I am doing in this game next question please)
You stated that you allways get mafiaroles on this site after our last game if I remember correctly. So that made sense to base a vote on in RVS.
Interesting thinking botched the joke=scum.
And do you think that any reason exept a repatation as enormous bad player can get someone lynched in RVS. (Disclaimer I don't think Bu is that)

Bu is also one of the players who are not really have posted much to lean on. The points above give me pause.

[StefanB]

Now Kiana:
Most of her scumpoints seem to be on minor thinks in RVS.
What is the history between Kiana and Maki. And Maki and Kokichi. And Maki and Kaito?
Interesting that she does give points based on if she aggres with the vote or not.
Actually how much of this chances if her own reads are wrong?

Don't like the excange with Wh4t. Feels wrong somehow.

Cedric:
A lot of analisis posts.
Post 113:

You think you proved something but you didn’t. I’d probably keep my mouth shut also if I were you.

feels wrong. Why are you saying this. Sounds like a tread. If you think Wh4t is scum than he would let him dig his own grave or attack. If he thinks he is town, wouldn't he react differently.

[StefanB]

I can confirm that in the last game with me Archwing voted Mozamis.
Between the both of them, there were some heated discusion. (exspecially on Mozsite)
Archwing did tunnel on Moz thereafter and was confirmed she was scum. (tvt of course)

[StefanB]

Now I am current.

I feel I should take a look to the reaction to Beefster there could be somethink.

I am still thinking about were me vote should go.

Thanks for the alt, Makis main is...

[StefanB]

GE:
You stated

Maki is kinda half and half, don't like them doubling down on someone's mistake,

can you talk a bit about that one.

[StefanB]

I must be blind, which push do you mean?

[StefanB]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Okay the reads feel not very helpful.
About the Makiread:

Maki stated in post 1 about this(132), that she belives that whatever Kokichi is doing is not aligment-indicative and the fight with Archwing is stupid.
The next 3 post critizice the vote from Kokichi towards Archwing.
Mind you if I would guess from the post then Maki sees Archwing vs Kokichi as tvt.

How Gamma comes to his conclusion is mindblowing.
Not paying attention points to scum.

[StefanB]

What would you guys say if I said I wasn't town?

I give everyone defending that that claimed is a bit strong.
But the implication is there, that Kokichi isn't town. Tongue in check, but it is there.
Was Archwing overstating what happened yes. Calling it a lie is also overstating it.
Now does what GE stated really stop that he is misinterpreting what Maki clearly stated.

[StefanB]

Archwing: Accepted.

Want to state somethink re last game. Me towards Mulch- you towards Moz, no big difference.
You were nightkilled and I think I looked better because how the next 2 days went.

@Mod: lol

[StefanB]

Stefan let me break this down.
>Kokichi says "what would you think if I did X"
>Arch think Kokichi is actually doing X
>Kokichi tells Arch they got it wrong
>Arch corrects themself
>Maki says Arch's statement was right
>I point that out as strange
Is this simple enough for you to understand?

Actually:


>Kokichi says "what would you think if I did X"
>Arch interpretes that as Kokichi is actually doing X
>Kokichi interpretes this as lying and votes Arch for it.
>Maki states this whole think is stupid and asks them to stop
>Kokichi questions Maki on it
>Then we get to the dialog between Maki and Kokichi
>You called that continuing the push.
Is that simple enough?

[StefanB]

Maki, Ras, Wh4t, everyone else who pops up:
What do you think about Gammas reaction to the whole think?
Scum not paying attention/misinterpretting this or town who sees thinks differently.

Thanks that is helpful re Kokichi.

[StefanB]

Ras: I think its better not to press that.

[StefanB]

Gamma: Okay doki.
I begin with 261: Kokichi appears, offers not much. Disappears.

Your vote and unvote:
Makes not much sense to me. The vote is okay, the unvote is a bit more unsure. (263,264)

Brass: I accept that vote. Not much of an opinion on it.

Our discusion:
I can see where someone get the litteral expresion re the Archwing-Kokichi, I still can't see how you got to your interpretation of the interaction between Kokichi-Maki. This why I am asking people.

Kiana: I kind of see where Ras comes from.
Beefster: I have my doubts there, but I will not at the moment vote there.

Makis reads: I will comment on the scumreads.
I don't share the brass read, I have him as town, find the Kokichi one interesting.

That from the point were you asked me, I will coment further later.

[StefanB]

Wh4t: The discusion between Archwing-Kokichi and Maki is the beginning.
Gamma read on Maki was

Maki is kinda half and half, don't like them doubling down on someone's mistake,

my question was if this was belivable.

[StefanB]

Okay I am tyred.
3 people have now stated that the could see Gammas read coming from town, 2 direct and Maki indirect by having him as townread.
I admite that I was wrong.
Were to vote tomorrow when I am awake.
UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald

[StefanB]

i got a n0 flavor cop on him. he's pennywise.

Since we are at the moment at admiting stuff that we didn't get and I thing this is at last a slight towntell for Archwing.

1. 13 town roles were written.
2. 3 of the roles were randomised to be mafia. Any necessary changes were made to fit their new alignments (for example, no Mafia Innocent Child).
3. Any necessary tweaks were made to balance the two sides.
4. Mafia were given their original town role PMs as safeclaims.
5. The 13 role PMs were randomly distributed to the 13 players.

I did only realise that today. So evil clowns like Pennywise or the Joker can easily be town.
Sorry that makes my question why Miller to Maki completly usless.
I think that is even less likly fake than Wh4ts 2 scum. (Probably true but was in one post were he corrected his mistake)
I don't give that much about Kianas 436. That one could be easily fake.

I give you there is no garanty that scum would know the one posted above, but imho likly.

Archwing: You had BuJaber as if I understand your list correctly as one/your biggest townread. Why?
Funny think is I wanted to ask Wh4t the same question in reverse, but I allready got an answer.
I give you that I had a certain theory but Kianas 436 destroyed that one.

[StefanB]

Koki does this every game. I was reaction testing other people to see who would jump on it with me. No one did.

I think this is a cover up

Actually, it definitely is because the game I played with Arch in the past, I didn't do that. I think he's copying what brass said earlier.

Can people comment on this? Think I caught Arch in a lie. Unless he can show me another game we were in together that I don't remember?

Kokichi: This is to much for people to check. If you belive that people should check if someone lied, please be specific and make it easy to check.

What I don't like about Kokichi: His question (which you can discripe what you want, I don't think it helps if we have another war to try to determine how it should be defined) was fishing for a reaction.
He got one and his whole game is centered around it. (One point re Maki and one read withstanding)

I also don't like this from him:

Also Maki, if you think I'm a shit player, why are you saying it's scummy for what I'm doing? Is that out of them realm for someone who plays like "shit"?

A bad player can of course be scum. (I remember some players who even said some VI are extremly easy to read, not implying that Koichi is a VI)
This is not bad player or scum.

[StefanB]

Ras Has 33 post, content:

i think it's best to ignore the claim for now, vote was rvs

at last for the first 12 votes, am I missing something?

I figured out why this game feels a little weird. Usually there's both scumhunting and townhunting/cohesion, but here it's like all scumhunting.

That is somethink else that I found interesting, how much do people activly townhunt in this game on the first 24 hours, for me that is the moment when my reads are very smal.

Okay there are some reads, but for this many posts there is very little substance.

VOTE: Raskolnikov

Can be that I am chancing my mind when I am true with every player.

Townpoints for this good vote, but

Actually

Unvote

:

I don't know how I feel about Beefster pushing it and Archwing following.

It was removed within two posts. Nothing could have possibly happened within these two posts, so not only the townpoints have been rescinded, but there is also a penalty. The vote almost feels like a scam to earn townpoints but actually wanting to vote correct scum Raskol. So, in total this gained some scumpoints.

Not quite what happened. I was catching up and looked at people in ISO. Should be obvious, I you check my post. It should also be obvious that I started at reverse alphabetic order and got from there at the beginning. I did leave a few players with a lot of posts for later (I don't remember if Kiana was the only one) and in the end got more random.

I voted Ras after ISOing him and than realised what was happening on the waggon.

Are you even paying attention to what one of your scumreads is doing.

Cedric and Kiana (will have to be very careful not to confusse all the players with Anime-names, sorry If I do): Both are still on my list for closer inspection, I am not sure what to make of them.

How is Cedric an anime name? It's a very common western name, please do not give excuses as to why you may not want to form a read on the towniest player on my list. Kiana isn't a common name but it isn't necessarily an anime/Japanese name either. I mean, in my case it is, but it's the same situation as Naomi, which happens to be a common African American name as well.

I find it difficult to believe you cannot come to a conclusion to, in my perspective, the exact two towniest people in the game. Scumpoints.

I thought, wh4t was your biggest townread?

The animenames I meaned were Kiana, Maki, Kaito and Kokichi. Yes I was unclear that that with the names did only aply to Kiana. And with confuse I meaned that I was at that state of game afraid I would type the wrong name.
And why I wasn't giving out reads here: Bras question was for me at a bad time. I was analysing all players, and there were some I didn't got to do in full detail at this point.
There were Cedric, Kiana and BuJaber .
I knew that Cedric and Kiana would take some time and I didn't want to be so mean to let a player waiting so long.
So I first did answer Bras than takeld the last 3 players. (okay first I answered a point that got on my nerves)
Should be obvios by the way, If you were paying attention.
We can criticise my order, yes.
By the way since you seemed to miss it, the post addresing you and Cedric. (yes I was doing the last 2 in one post was 258 Iso 15)
Are you even trying to analise the circumstances of posts or are you nitpicking only those thinks that fit your pointsystem.

And the rolefishing:

I didn't rolefish!!!!!!!!

I asked if the claim was real or a joke. (We were in RVS and I don't know the players involved)
I asked for a name with the claim and if there was a reason why this person is a miller.

I have only very old meta on millers. My main meta is unfortunatly tigereaten. And if I remember correctly as a miller I was grilled more than once about the last point. (It was a soccer-Upick and I chose a German player, but the mods were fans of England)
I thought those question as standard. I see now that my plan is outdated in that fashion.

Then I asked why Maki did not remember the name of her role.

Can any of you who are stating I was rolefishing how any of this was going after the role? What is the reason for a potential mafia-me to do that?

What is the reason for a potential mafia to learn a townie's role? Hmm, I wonder. Maybe so that it will give you information and know whether Maki is a threat to shoot tonight or not.

Okay really angry now. Did you even

read

the post you quoted?
How could my question give me that info. I try to make it clear again.
1. Is this claim real or a joke?
2. What is your rolename?
(Btw I still stand that those questions are standard)
3. Why are a miller? (anyone reading my post 443 should get a slight idea, why the question was stupid but also why I asked it)
4. Why don't you remember your rolename?

Now Kiana will probably continue to call it rolefishing. But how I could get the information she states I was after by asking that questions will probably a riddle for eternity.
Second Kiana posting coming soon.

[StefanB]

This is not the second post.
But since the acusation should be clear from the last post, and I will only make it clearer in the next one:

VOTE: Kiana Kaslana

[StefanB]

Okay didn't have time until now, so my points re Kiana part 2:

I don't like her pointing system at all. (Okay no suprise here)
Here are my main objections from a theoretical standpoint.

1. The main-foundation is RVS based.
2. It confirms reads rather than questions them and when they are from the RVS...
3. One think wrong and everythink goes boom. (Just play the game, what If scumread X is town, what would that mean for the other reads.
4. Its an exelent tool to make people do what Kiana wants (Okay I wanted to write bully first but that is to strong), aka vote for the people she finds scummy, to get townpoints.
5. It is completly reaction not proactive.

Okay really bad:
Post 159 Scumpoints for a confusing nonsenspost in RVS in a game of clowns (And I thought I had problems with humor)
Post 160,166: Scumpoints for RVSvotes.

Points that are only make sense if her reads are right: 165,166,167,180

I also don't like this post is usless scumpoints 170

Scumpoints for voting her: 396,403

Other points: Potential budying to Maki in 173 Potential connection to Beefster in 175
really funny considering the flow 173,174: First stats that she wouldn't people ever let policylynch Maki and than goes after Ras who makes a somehow similar statement

-------------

And one interesting think I noticed: There was that think yesterday with wh4ts maxed out townpoints, here is her pointlist:
V2

Lady Kiana Kaslana
Town
Cedrick +++++
Kokichi Oma +++
Wh4t ++
brassherald ++
Bujaber +

Gamma Emerald 0.5

Beefster 0
Maki Harukawa <3
Kaito Momota 0

StefanB ---
Raskolnikov -----
Archwing ------
Scum[/quote]

(without colors)

[StefanB]

I give you that I had a certain theory but Kianas 436 destroyed that one.

What theory is it?

Can you please type properly? I find it difficult to understand your posts.

I give you the same promise I did give everyone before. If it gets to bad tell me and I replace out.
Sorry it takes a long time for me to type (Second language) and I find it funny that this comes one post before you stated that you basicly don't care what I do or why I do it.

[StefanB]

I thought, wh4t was your biggest townread?

No, Cedric is my biggest townread. Can you please read my Points post? I really cannot see how anyone possibly misunderstands that.

You get that later I think. This was a misunderstanding what "maxed out town-points" meaned.

[StefanB]

Okay didn't have time until now, so my points re Kiana part 2:

I don't like her pointing system at all. (Okay no suprise here)
Here are my main objections from a theoretical standpoint.

1. The main-foundation is RVS based.
2. It confirms reads rather than questions them and when they are from the RVS...
3. One think wrong and everythink goes boom. (Just play the game, what If scumread X is town, what would that mean for the other reads.
4. Its an exelent tool to make people do what Kiana wants (Okay I wanted to write bully first but that is to strong), aka vote for the people she finds scummy, to get townpoints.
5. It is completly reaction not proactive.

Okay, fair points raised against my system, but how do these make me scum? Are any of your criticisms actually something that scum would do?

Can you propose a better system and show me that it works better?

Okay my problem is, is Kiana not seeing the danger that her system brings or is she ignoring them because they are good for her.
Your system doesn't seem realistic, I should perhaps check if you are a newbie, but for an experiencent player to have a system like this is a (and now comes the part were this whole thinks gets a bit personal) is either a VI or a scumtell.

Better system, uhm no system?
Thinks that it does ignore: CONTENT, other opinions, bussing, reads beeing wrong, the whole game?
I will read some of your past game to find out if my fear for your system is correct.

[StefanB]

By the way the Kianasystem is somethink that from a quick look through her finished games is new.

[StefanB]

I am liking StefanB's most recent posts. He might not be scum after all. He is doing much better than the other two scumreads so there is a very good comparison too.

Stefan I want to know how you are reading other players instead of always focusing on me.

Read my posts. Did I focus on you today, yes. Always is false. I have given posts directed at other players. I don't do a were do you stand completly ever day.

Have I given a read on everyone, no there are players I haven't given a read one, some of them I haven't got a read one.
If someone has a good idea how to engage Kaito for example I am all ears.

Pre-edit: Bu-Jaber the system makes it clear where she stands, okay. This is a plus.
I have stated the minus. The question is does it produce good content?

[StefanB]

BuJaber:
Looked at you once more.

What I found strange is the following:

Miller claim probably just means miller. Likely town but anyway millers don't survive till end game. We vig or lynch before lylo. Considering mod gave out fakeclaims I don't think anybody will be counterclaimed. That defeats the purpose.

Shows him quite informed, in the same post were he speculates about Jesters

Raska going off on beef for his Ronald McDonald comment seems strange. You made a post that makes anyone who doesn't live in a jungle think about mcdonald's.. why is it scummy for him to mention it? So what if you are ronald? How would that tell us your role/alignment?

This was the reason for the vote on Raska, can you make this a bit more clearer, what your point was for your first vote, since exept correcting your votingmistake.

Also other from your iso:

Gamma seems a little too quiet. Do you have experience playing with him?

Why do you think Gamma is quiet?

About the content that Kianas system gives(BuJabers last post) I quote myself:

1. The main-foundation is RVS based.
2. It confirms reads rather than questions them and when they are from the RVS...
3. One think wrong and everythink goes boom. (Just play the game, what If scumread X is town, what would that mean for the other reads.
4. Its an exelent tool to make people do what Kiana wants (Okay I wanted to write bully first but that is to strong), aka vote for the people she finds scummy, to get townpoints.
5. It is completly reaction not proactive.

Thinks that it does ignore: CONTENT, other opinions, bussing, reads beeing wrong, the whole game?

[StefanB]

Kiana, Gamma: That was fascinating.

From Kiana I got she was in a game, replaced out, Gamma took the slot over and selfhammered as town.
Gammas response seemed to tell a different story.
Then Kiana mentioned the game and yep her story is true.
Arrgh. No selfvotes or even selfhammers as town please. (If you are scum be my guest)

I can't say that Kianas reactions make me feel good, but I don't want to get tunnelvision here

I want to post more but no time.

[StefanB]

Okay this day will be hairy, I am not sure what I will post.
But BuJaber I will respond, too.

Okay the Jester think, it is a roundaboutway to defend Archwing. This is why it is remarkable. And the high townread of BuJaber by Archwing was remarkable also.

Short theorypoint: Jesterspeculation in a closed setup on mafiascum is pointless. It is the most hated role on this bord (This is old meta) and if you ever mod a game don't inclued it, or prepare for very heated post-gamediscusion (Execption perhaps Marathon-games)

The point about gammas inactivity is that it came from you:
Gamma: 60 posts
BuJaber: 15 posts.

(In both times of my question and this time Gamma has the 3rd most post in the game, first time tied whit Wh4t)
This is not comment on Gammas aligment, but the question why BuJaber perception is so different from the objective reality is interesting.

Second time there is a strange strong Kaitoread. I would also call him 0 and give everyone that he has done probably zero scummy thinks and somethink that I would call midly towny (The Huh? after Makis townread on him) but that is the second strange read on this slot.

[StefanB]

To be fair to Koichi this quote is practually his game:

Kiana is an okay lynch I guess, but I want Arch flipped.

He has been on Archwing, since Archwings reaction to his oppening.
And he has Kiana as a secondary scumread since he reacted to her first posts.

So him fulling both waggons or better beeing on the Archwingwaggon while liking the Kianawaggon, too is nothing new.

I will post my thoughts about theory at the next post, for everyone, who wants to skipp it.

[StefanB]

About counterwaggons:
I have seen games, were both waggons day 1 were on scum.
I even were on a game (with 2 scumfactions) were we managed to have every vote on day 1 on the members of one scumteam. (Okay one player was not voting) (all 3 members of scumteam A were voted)

So it is not imposible, I doubt that we are this good at the moment.
And a scumteam of Archwing-Kiana is not very high on my likly radar.

And I think (and I am sorry for that, because I may be guilty about it, too) we should be careful about discusion why people are bad at this game, when it has nothing to do with the game. It makes the game unpleasent and much harder to read.

[StefanB]

Kokichi:
Jester: flavour, inposible because of modpost
And probably never in a closed game (even bastard) if the mod wants to mod another game.

P-Edit: Was was the lie?

[StefanB]

Archwing is town, stahp

Since when do you have that read? The last one was that Kiana and Archwing can't be both scum. You were quite suspicious of Archwing earlier.

[StefanB]

How are all these people so scummy, is this a role madness game at all?

Who do you find scummy. I know of Archwing, Kiana anyone else?

[StefanB]

Also from me a hello, just thinking were I know Hiraki from.

[StefanB]

No, you are the one who should screw off. I am trying out a new system and you are taking a dump on it with unconvincing arguments. I am not sure if you are anti-newbie or anti-women or are upset that one with both of those traits can be better than you but all I know is you are getting in my way and playing anti-town.

With your own method you get pocketed by scum who are both pushing the same agenda as you and not pushing the same agenda as you. At least I can say my method is better on this front. I mentioned I only awards points for thinking similarly if they had the thought before I could state it, which is okay, but you should go find that evidence for yourself instead of making me doing busywork for you. I am not your little bitch. It is very obvious from my previous posts which you are clearly not reading. I don't know if you are not reading because you are stubborn, lazy, bad at reading, or just plain scum. Unfortunately three of those options are town-possible and only one is scum. Unfortunately again, only way I can maintain my sane respect for you is if you are the latter.

For Kiana:
*headdesk* to quote somethink from another side.
First off there are a few people who had problems with your system, BuJaber likes it. What makes GEs post that much worse?
Your reaction comes from anger at the moment and this makes you look worse. (Personal experience anger is not a tell for alligment exspecially if it goes about general isues, some scumplayers like to go angry because it can give them an out)

Anti-newbie: This may hurt, but some newbies are pretty easy to read, others are not... If you play with someone more often, you can see were there quirks are and they are easier to read.
Beeing to sure of your reads, is the only think that I see mentioned with newbies. It is a danger everythink should be aware off.

Anti-women: You push that in another game before and I see that the back and forth between GE and you got personal.
Kind of the start was probably that:
Kiana

What do you know about my meta? The only completed game we have involved you self-hammering my slot and throwing the game for town.

I will not go into who came out worse in what followed. The problem is if the discusion reach the point were the question is who is the worse player, I never seen it not getting ugly.

About your system, this is somethink new. It was not completly easy to understand.
Lets take your biggest townread from your pointsystem for example: I think you awarded 3 townpoints for his jokes, and 2 townpoints for the vote on Archwing, but this is more a guiss from me than beeing sure.

About not reading this is funny because we had the same discusion twohundred post ago, with you in the other postition.

-----------------------

For everyone:

Kiana defense is at the moment: Attack the attacker. Be very agresive. She is also using appeals to emotion.
This can be playstile. (Not a pleasant or easy one to read mind you)
It is also the easy route to defend if you don't have logic arguments.
It also gets the discusion away from the question is she scum/town to who is the worse player or even worse person.
Don't let it get there.

[StefanB]

Kiana nice try.

First yes I joined mafiascum some time ago, but had a long break. So my meta is old(miller for example) and I know nearly no players in this.
So no appeal to authority from me.

I find it hard to read the discusion with you and Gamma.
The big difference between the situation is: There is no history between you and me our diskusion didn't go in personal ground, so it is more neutral than the one you have with Gamma.

So the argument will also be less neutral, than it would be if that wasn't there.
Note also the Gammas was commenting on your system after a few other players.
So it is normal that it isn't as detailed.

Now if your theory is that he does that because you caught Raskolnikov and Archwing. Do you think that you had the influence that you scumreading them, would neccesary get them lynched? Do you think the timming, after several people were voting you, would make this necesary? He was when he did that a slight townread, wouldn't it be safer to not do it and stay hidden?
It is an interesting theory but it would be very risky scumplay.

[StefanB]

The votes that made the waggon go from was a waggon to L-1 were Kaito, Raskolnikov and Wh4t:

Kaitos reasoning was Kiana is not scum and Archwing is pushing that waggon as counter.
His alligment is ????. He apperently lurks as town or as scum.
I have nothing scummy from him.
Interesting is that he appeared on townlist twice very high. (Maki and BuJaber)

Raskolnikov stated that he switched here because he was sure Kiana was not happening.

Wh4t:

He danced around a scumread on Archwing all day. He voted him 3 times today. (Okay 2 if you don't count the L-1, replacement, okay unvote give the replacement time to catch up, revote)
I would say between the unvote and the revote we can call him on the waggon in spirit.
He is extreme votehopping. (I have seen town do that to get reads, did I myself sometimes)

If there is scum that drove the waggon fast, Raskolnikov and/or Wh4t would have to be it, not counting Kaito, whose first vote Archwing was.

[StefanB]

If Gamma was after lynching Kiana with no question asked, Ras offer would have been easy.
So that was pretty townie.

Kokichi wins the *if you reread this game, you will be sorry about this posts award"

Ras: That was pretty much a okay how to get the lynch is not important, I want to get it no matter what.
I agree with Gamma this is more of a scummindset.

@Mod: Is Wh4t really voting Archwing and Beefster. I thought he unvoted the former.

The real joke is Mathdino's inability to do basic math.
Fixed.

[StefanB]

For BuJaber:

I think that Koichi timing was bad.

Ras was 727. It was about the matters of the push.
short: I see were Gammas vote is comming from.

[StefanB]

Sorry Gamma was rereading Ras and while doing so concentration whent zero, I need sleep mode activated.
I agree that what Ras is doing is scummy, I see how Kiana is defending hereself.
My problem is what scummy person should I vote.

[StefanB]

Okay to tackle the Cedric-Wh4t-Bujaberstuff:
Cedrics game:
Post 0: Joke
Post 1+2: Millerdiscusion
Post 3-5: Discusion of Wh4t-Cedric 1
6-13 Beefster, Archwing, Millerdiscusion
14-16: Explaining why he has no reads. (Here is the stated townread, from wh4t)
17: Jokexplanation
18: Reaction to wh4t and Kiana (here we can see the seed that the scumread comes from)
19: Info re cop and Millerplay
20: VLA
21: Criticize Bras who is suspicios of him.
22: Vote on the Kianawaggon.

Now where did Kiana the supertownread from him? She like his jokes and his vote an Archwing.
Now to be fair to Cedric he does admite that his play was great, the clearest in post 700(Iso 36), but 549(Iso 24) went in that direction.

Now his vote: My first reaction was also huh, vote on VLA, the highest waggon, this sounded as if he wanted to reduce his responsibility, but on the other hand: We are still early on day 1, should we except the first waggon to go through without a big consent in town or a unconsented hammer, which is very rare on the first L-1 waggon on day 1.
Okay the problem could be that since he wasn't there he could have a good defence about the responsibility of the mislynch, but if that waggon gets to a hammer on a potential town-Kiana how much scrutinity goes to the L-3 voter Cedric anyway.
So I see were he comes from in 637.

One question remeans for me: Why did you unvote Kiana so fast when she was at L-1?
Sorry I sort of got sidetrapped.

--------
What I don't find suspicious is the active during VLA. You have more time than you thought you have, happens. And the scummotivation to declare VLA to lurk and giving low content, than not to use it, is interesting.
I can see it, if there is very high pressure that you break your VLA, but this is not an aligment-tell.

About the lies:

1. my 3 early posts were all fluff - rvs and 2 game related posts
2. claims my vote on Kai was opportunistic - This depends on your definition obviously, personally i felt like I made a good pressuring vote. It's not like i put a person to L2 or L1 even without any real reasons like he did. THOSE are opportunistic imo
3. claims my vote on kai was reckless - This isn't even a definition thing, this is just flat out wrong
4. Claims I used AtE in post 634 - he will claim this is a difference in definition but I didn't use AtE at all, what is said is the truth and it's part of the reason why I scum read him. he is trying to intentionally misrep and manipulate my actions
5. says I was actively lurking - In no way was I active lurking what so ever
6. says i am throwing defensive fits - Defending myself from lies and misreps is not and never will be considered a Defensive fit.
7. he says I admitted to reading the game - I never said I have read the game, i have never said I am even caught up.

1 is dumb, were those post great for getting the game along, nope.
2+3: First impresion perhaps, not if you think more about it.
4: I would say that the last line of 634 was out of order. The whole post is a mix beetween a acusation, that is normal mixed with strong language. Actually that is probably true even for the last line.
5: I think no, the posting is more than you can exspect from posting from VLA.
6: You are coming of as emotianal/angry some times. Not alligment-indicative
7: I am not going there because that post is long and I am allready typing to long.

-----------

Short: In my opinion nothing here is so far from reality that it is necessary a lie and not missinterpretation.
So both of your cases Wh4t and Cedric are unconvincing.

PS: Sorry for the wall...

[StefanB]

VJK?

[StefanB]

Actually Bu was never on any of the 2 big waggons at all.

[StefanB]

Looks at Wh4t:

You know you are only missing Maki, Kaito, Kokichi and Raskolnikov now.

Okay we got there quickly.

Maki I echo Cedric, can you show that not the ever, but one example, that comes from scum.

Because I had the exact opposite reaction:

Bujaber wrote

This is a proven method of psychological manipulation. You are letting other people's minds fill in the blanks to come up with reasons why I might be scum. That way they think they came up with it without feeling like you manipulated them.

Why would a townie player manipulate people into scumreading someone instead of giving reasons for their scumread and convincing people of their case?
Hiraki is scum;
VOTE: hiraki

Seems to me the scum in this.
How can this manipulate someone in believing scum?
Okay paranoia is a think, but if you are town, should people who read you come to that conclusion that you are not scummy?

I am not exactly neutral on Bu this I have to give you.

[StefanB]

I don't find it scummy, but if your goal is to vote the whole playerlist on day 1 those 4 are the only once missing.
You have voted 8 of the 13 players today. (if not counting yourself 2/3rds)
I thought that was funny.

[StefanB]

My pet theory is that I am not getting lynched even though I am a scum-led wagon, for this sole reason: scum are already on my wagon, and thus have no more members to add further to my wagon to fulfill a lynch.

Now, this makes the current Hiraki wagon rather concerning because it implies that it is a town-led wagon.

Which leads me to wonder if I was giving my brass townread a bit too freely and easily, because truth be told I have not been impressed by Hiraki's posts at all.

If I wasn't still scumreading you, that would be easier.
Now waggonanalysistheory: From my experience it is rare that scum is completly on a waggon, if they can avoid it, exspecially on day 1, with daytalk and 3 members.
Now town-led waggons without scum on it, are not rare, depends on the personality of the scumplayer. Unfortunatly that is no prove that it isn't on town.

Theory end.

About the Hirakiwaggon. It is difficult to read for me. I have not that much of read of Hiraki on one direction or another. I devoloped a slight townread on Brass early on and didn't really have him that much on the raddar. My problem is that I is a case were the reasons are more meta/gutfellings. Good for those who have them, but for me difficult to access if right or wrong.

My other problem is BuJaber: I will make a case later that day, why but without Kiana, I probably would have moved my vote here some time ago.

[StefanB]

I have to say I didn't find that much about Bu that was scummy that I though.
More a few highlights:

I really think arch is jester here. He's just too scummy.

Could be defend of Archwing, if Archwing was his buddy.

Kokichi: Comes out a bit strange.

Koki is policy lynch material. You really have a talent for walking on the fence of scummy/NAI.

What do you think of Kokichi? I find it difficult to ignore scummy things just because people tell me x player always does this.

First implies that he thinks Kokichi should die even if town, second implies he believes he is scum.

Okay between that his reaction to Makis 296

This is the correct interpretation of what happened. Anyone disagreeing is twisting facts or misunderatanding.

Is for me a bit strong.

His reaction to Kiana I think comes of as not really sincere:
In 453 he states about Kiana:

The mention of daychat in general can easily be faked. Here Kiana sounds like she's getting lost in her own anxiousness to find connections. That also can be faked though admittedly harder. So I wouldn't personally read into it much. But yes if she ignores the correction and doesn't rethink her reads it would look scummy. Do you have reason to think she checked the thread after you corrected her?

Doesn't imho not really fit together with his later defence of Kiana system.

The strong townread on Kaito.

After I questioned him, why he thought gamma was silent, when Gamma had a lot of posts

More posts does not necessarily mean more content.
In this game most activity occurs while I sleep/ work so naturally my posts are going to be more condensed as I have more stuff to comment on.
At the time of me posting that comment gamma's activity had dropped and he himself knows it but he gave an explanation for it. So I don't know why you're hounding me for that.

Comes of as quite defensive.

And then his vote on Hiraki, which I wrote earlier about.

What I don't find scummy:
Him voting a stronger scumread while there is a waggon on the smaller one. This will be more important when we get nearer to the deadline.

Not important, but huh: "copying from your neighbours" I really looked up, to find the original post, because that phrase kind of implied that Hiraki had a QT.

My problem is I see Bu in a lot of scumpairs that can't be all right, and their is a gutscumfelling that may be driven by paranoia.

[StefanB]

First before I answer anythink as public service:

Inofical vote-count should be correct if there aren't any suprises left:

Archwing

(3, L-4): Kokichi Oma, Kiana Kaslana, Kaito Momota

Kiana Kaslana

(5, L-2): StefanB, Archwing, Hiraki, Raskolnikov, Cedric

Wh4t

(1, L-6): Beefster

Hiraki

(5, L-2): Bujaber, Maki Harukawa, Wh4t, Gamma Emmerald, Hiraki

[StefanB]

Stefan, what's your read on Kaina? I have a hard time keeping up my SR if I've found out that her English just plain isn't good.

Oh I am still scumreading her, I could copy and past everythink about it, if I need to do so.

[StefanB]

Bu:
About Koki fair enough, you just started with policity lynch and than strong attacked he is scum. I found that noteworthy.
About Kaito I found it worth pointing out, I know that you said it was a mistake but that one is imho a strange mistake.

About Kiana you were one of the few persons who liked her system and her early posts, which of her scum or townpoints do you think were good ones?

[StefanB]

Kokichi: Why quickhammer?

[StefanB]

Kokichi: Why quickhammer?

Because I'm scum.

That alone or whith Kiana would be the easiest explanation.
But humor me, why are you wanting to do it, if you aren't scum.

[StefanB]

I am not so happy whith a quickhammer, but I want to see Kianas reaction to it.

[StefanB]

Not to the hammer, but to Koichis post.
Sorry does that make me a bad person?

[StefanB]

But seriously there is an easy way to beat Koichi,

if a person wants to sent Kiana to L-1, please anouce your intent before.

So we have a fundamental L-1, and don't have to be afraid of the quickhammer.

[StefanB]

Unvote

Wh4t: Why did you ignore that Kokichi was treatening to quickhammer?
You said that Beef should be quicklynched, when nobody is voting him.
And then you are at a moment, when thinks are chancing are voting somewhere else.
Arrgh!!!

About Maki because everyone believed you know? The only think that is chanced(because of that info), is that Makis millerclaim would come from the mod, if she was scum and wasn't her own idea.
She was never confirmed.

I don't see Raskolnikovs unvote as scummy.
Because of Kokichi I would call this natural.

About unatural defense: BuJaber hello.
You called the case on Kiana bad and liked her postings but never actually posted what of her scum-or townposts were good.
You were always on the abstract.

About the claim:
This one is very provable. Vig is only normal if town. I will ask some questions to the mod next.

[StefanB]

@mod: You said that this hasn't any roles, that are considered non-normal. So if in a normal-game a role isn't allowed, it isn't in the game?

Sorry, I have a second question but that could give mafia tomuch info, so I won't ask it.

[StefanB]

Other Players:
Beefster: Was never on the waggon, has townread Kiana and defended her, but not in a way that looks out of the ordinary.

Brass/Hiraki: Brass was not on the Kianawaggon, interacted with her, agreed with her scumread on Archwing
Hiraki voted Kiana and has long discusions about it.

BuJaber: Has defended her never on Kiana or Archwing. If someone wanted to get townpoints for reading Kiana right, but not stopps the waggon, imho Bus play fits.

Cedric: Voted Kiana before he got VLA. Unvoted after the first L-1, in 787 he votes Kiana again, because "no one wants to vote wh4t".

Gamma: Was tecnically the first to vote Kiana, unvoted after one vote. Got into a fight with Kiana, while not voting her, and than voted her, but votes pretty soon somewhere else.
Had the chance to go after Kiana in a big way, when that got ugly, but declined Raskolnikovs offer and voted.
Has not voted Kiana since.

Kaito: Not part of the Kianawaggon, mentioned Kiana once didn't think she was scum.

Kokichi: Driving the Archwingwaggon, while calling Kiana scummy. Was the one who wanted to hammer yesterday.

Maki: Did townread Kiana from nearly the beggining, calls both the Archwing and the Kianawaggon bad.

----------
This are the players minus Raskolnikov, Archwing (the 2 mainsuspects of Kiana from early on), Wh4t (who was all over the place) and me(who I can't give objective analysis on)

From those of, I would call BuJaber and Kokichi the most interesting.
One I haven't gotten that much of a sniff.

[StefanB]

Okay I definitly trust Cedric enough to not fakeclaim as town/aka not gametrowing

So one is fakeclaiming scum.

against Cedric speaks:

- Scum has fakeclaims, so it is a bit suprising that Kiana claimed a role that was cc, but perhaps her modprovided Fakeclaim wasn't flashy enough.
- normally vigs counterclaim at night.

pro Cedric speaks:

- What motivation is there for scum to counterclaim?
- CC is actually more town, than shooting at night.
- He looks more town.
- Actually who am I kidding?

For the lazy players can someone point of some of Cedriccrumps, please?


2 vigs is imposible, lets say we lynch right, than the game can be over night 1. 1 vig is swingy, 2 vigs in a 13-player a nightmare.

VOTE: Kiana

[StefanB]

Maki: That would only make sense if you believe Cedric was scum counterclaiming.
If not why leave scum alive?

[StefanB]

Gamma: Why? I would agree normally, if there weren't the claims. You don't let scum live.
Have you got a reason to believe Cedric is lying?
If so lynch him tomorrow on scum down.

Koichi: If we have a doctor, a JK for example shouldn't be on Cedric.

[StefanB]

Maki: Actually Koichi seems to asume garantied town-doctor (on Cedric), if I read the last post right.

[StefanB]

What! No a vig is not necesary a garantie that there is a counter from scum.
Actually vig is so swingy, that mostly there would be this roles to not make vigs anti-town.

[StefanB]

The Maki, Hiraki, Gamma, anyone else against Kianas lynch:
Why are you against it, what do you think is happening?

[StefanB]

Maki: You have scum, you lynch it.
If you have sure scum, on 2 people, good lynch the one who is more likly scum.
I could also call this mafia 101.
And I trust a lynch more than nightactions, less chance to get it wrong.

[StefanB]

One in Cedric and Kiana agreement?

[StefanB]

In post 1095, StefanB wrote:
One in Cedric and Kiana agreement?

Which is not confirmed because they're not flipped.

Hiraki: So what 2 vigs or Cedric is lying town, what do you think is posible?

[StefanB]

Maki: Now give me one reason why Cedric as scum makes sense in this scenario?

[StefanB]

Sorry screwed up the quote last line on two posts up is Hiraki.

[StefanB]

Gamma, Maki: Okay you 2 can be at last talked to, not like Haraki, who makes as much sense as Koichi at the moment.
You can be pissed at Cedric, but lets think for a moment. You don't want to think about a situation between 2 slots, which is more likly to be scum.
I see your argument, if we get it wrong, but should we at last think about the question if the danger is real to get it wrong?

[StefanB]

No I am not reposting the nearly a qarter of jokes that have points about shot in them.
Your theory works if Cedric wanted that to save a partner, which means Ras or Archwing...

[StefanB]

Actually Kiana wanted a CC. She mentioned that they would clear that Texasstile.

[StefanB]

Cedric: Really?
For that a lot of your jokes had reverenced to shoot, death, fire etc in it...

Your crump was that?

Tunneling me is hazardous to your health, especially when you don’t have any reason to. You’ve been obsessed with me and it’s super scummy.

[StefanB]

We are having a theorydiscusion that will continue until endgame.
And everyone is loosing respect for others (believing them dumb)

End probably everyone is forming new teams in their head...

[StefanB]

Get this to Gamma or Maki and get them to accept that you aren't braindead...

[StefanB]

It was just from the wrong angle. And I haven't looked at Rask or Archwing.

I disagree that Arch used a crumb. I wish I was a vig is not somethink unnatural.

[StefanB]

Beefster makes sense.
Archwing would be weird, but it is the only town/scumpointcase of Kiana that wasn't totally crap (Koichi had one point that was okay)
BuJaber: Only if he defended his partner like crazy.
Gamma: Way too personal, I don't think between them that was faked.
Hiraki: I have lost my posibility to understand him, would have been a good bus.
Kaito: ???
Kokichi: Not imposible, voted Archwing for a long time, but found Kiana scummy.
Maki makes sense
Ras strongly pushed by Kiana, sorry him I will later reread.

[StefanB]

Selling multiball in a conformed 10:3 scenario?
I scum can do that they would autowin, because they could sell us everythink.

[StefanB]

Archwing: What you will be facing Cedric CC Kiana.

[StefanB]

But both claimes 2-shot btw x-shot.

[StefanB]

Anyone who is keeping that claim if it is not real at that point is either someone who should never play mafia ever again or mafia.
Actually I understand why scum would claim 2-shot, 1-shot is too weak and full vig to much work to take it away.
There is also the posibility there is no vig.
And Kiana could have been afraid of a vig.

wh4t: Your fakeclaim was hopfully as scum...

Cedric: You were the X-shot, this was about even/odd vig.

[StefanB]

She hasn't

[StefanB]

Bu/Archwing then start.

[StefanB]

Beef/Maki/3rd I am not sure... Kokichi perhaps.

How long given up on understanding certain players...

[StefanB]

Gamma please don't open that.

Kiana about Gamma:

Spoiler:

you self-hammering nincompoop.

What have you done? Lynch yourself? My, reading capabilities have been proven to be leagues above yours, so if you would refrain from being condescending to newbies, maybe you can improve.

Instead of whining about how your inferiority complex gets triggered by me when I only joined this site much later than you.

No, you are the one who should screw off. I am trying out a new system and you are taking a dump on it with unconvincing arguments. I am not sure if you are anti-newbie or anti-women or are upset that one with both of those traits can be better than you but all I know is you are getting in my way and playing anti-town.

With your own method you get pocketed by scum who are both pushing the same agenda as you and not pushing the same agenda as you. At least I can say my method is better on this front. I mentioned I only awards points for thinking similarly if they had the thought before I could state it, which is okay, but you should go find that evidence for yourself instead of making me doing busywork for you. I am not your little bitch. It is very obvious from my previous posts which you are clearly not reading. I don't know if you are not reading because you are stubborn, lazy, bad at reading, or just plain scum. Unfortunately three of those options are town-possible and only one is scum. Unfortunately again, only way I can maintain my sane respect for you is if you are the latter.

Do you think someone talks to a scumpartner like this?

[StefanB]

Ras why quoting that?

[StefanB]

I mean I put it under a spoiler so that no one has to read it.

[StefanB]

Because he is one of the Maki/Hiraki/Gamma/BuJabercrowd, they can't all be scum and they haven't accepted that we lynch between the vigs.

[StefanB]

By the way, if I said I was a mason. Who would believe me?

Image cut.

Scum should. And they shouldn't kill until the have found your masonpartner.

[StefanB]

I think that if both claimed vigs shoot each other and nothing interfears we have 2 dead bodies is understood by everyone.

Posibilitys:
1. We lynch right: one dead scum today, one dead town tonight, and one vig kill
2. We lynch wrong: one dead vig today, one dead town tonight, one dead scum tomorrow
3. We lynch somewhere else: one dead ???, one dead vig(probably), one dead scum
4. We lynch somewhere else: one dead ???, vig kil blocked, day 2

The discusion is between people who belive we are doing 1, whith a very low possibility on 2, is better than the danger of 4 and better than 3. And the people who don't think about the posibilitys of 1+2 and just assume 3.
What this has to with NAR is anyones guess.

Okay Flavor Unbreakable is somethink that I may not be taken in account enough.

[StefanB]

Kiana minus the vote.

Hi. I am back. I just noticed something very disturbing.

vig hits other vig

What is this?! I almost was thinking in my head if Cedrick was scum since I gave him so many townpoints earlier in the game it was confusing me. But then I realized that the game setup is rolled by making 13 town role PMs then randomizing 3 scum. It's entirely possible that two vigs were in the original setup, and it's more likely than not that two vigs are both town instead of one being scum and one being town. There is no guarantee that the other vig is scum, because of the fact that Mathdino was supposed to make the game unbreakable.

Kokichi's nonsense about mafia doctor or whatever is a very bad argument, he just wants to lynch me. If he thinks I'm scum and he thinks already a mafia doctor on my imaginary team then why wouldn't I claim doctor instead? Why claim something risky like vig when if he said that, there would be a counterclaim and I would get lynched anyway (as is the case happening now), it doesn't make sense from scum perspective for me to claim that. So, I am town.

The problem here is that I think wh4t scumslipped by actually revealing that he knows there are 2 town vigs and is now trying to pretend that he doesn't know that. I think it is because Cedrick puts too much pressure on him knowing that Cedrick will shoot him at night. I also don't like how Wh4t likes to put me at L-2 and L-1 all the time.

You gave him townpoints for his jokes and the one vote on Archwing, at last that was what you mentioned.
About the 2 vigs: From a setup-perspektive this is a nightmare, lets asume it would be the case. Best case scenario game is over after night 1, or scum wins earlier, not somethink a mod wants.
Mafia hasn't got a vig, this game is reviewed to be normal, vigs are only normal as town. So we are talking about mafia fakeclaiming vig, not that there is a mafiavig.

Kokichi is nonsense but scum having an interference roule that can screw with townpowerroles is posible.

For the claim: Claiming doctor would put you in problems if your partner ever dies.
Claiming vig, you didn't knew that there would be a CC, because if scum you didn't knew that there was a vig.

Congrats on fighting your lynch, if scum or town. Very interesting route.

[StefanB]

BuJaber, Gamma: I am sorry for sumarising your position wrong, thanks for making it clear.
Just looking at the playerlist, we need a Kaito or Beefster agreement on lynching Kiana, or it is not posible.
I am not willing to wait for Kaito to decied that.
If Beefster disagrees with it, I will see that the lynch here is imposible.
I stand by that Gamma is town. (read, when Kiana flips scum very strong read)
I apologise for making the post that Raskolnikov copied. (In my defense I did hide it behind a spoiler)

[StefanB]

It's like hitting the lottery, do you think any town on this site ever caught 3 scum on day 1?

Yes. Was part of one game where that happened and then scum imploded. Very funny to watch from the deadtopic after I forced scum to kill me. Even if the vig was relucant to shoot because of a special role after night 3 4 of 5 scum were dead. And this was a large.

Even an unbreakable setup has to be balanced, 2 vigs in a mini modnightmare. I stand by this.

And unvoting a scummy player player who claims a provable role, normal. After a CC, when you believe the CC also normal.

Exept Hiraki and wh4t and Kiana no one seems to even consider 2 vigs.

[StefanB]

Yepp, Mathdino discripted that here, he also stated later:

There are no explicitly non-normal roles or mechanics as listed under the Normal Game wiki page, and this game has been reviewed for balance and non-bastardness by NRG members xRECKONERx and fferyllt. Reasonable greylisted roles/modifiers (such as Loved) are considered within bounds for the design of this game.

It was reviewed for balance and 2 vigs is not balanced in a 13-playergame.

Kiana: Yes, I will not tell myself I am bad, if you are lynched. For that I have Maki/Gamma/Hiraki and BuJaber, even before the flipp.

[StefanB]

Maki: Any comment on the 2 vigdiscusion? You agreed yesterday, we don't have 2 townvigs.
Any comment on Kiana? You played with her before.

[StefanB]

No idea(only that you ever let a part for error), I hope Gamma and Hiraki will never mod games.

[StefanB]

Actually what the fuck, how does me misreading Kiana equal being a bad mod? Why shouldn't I WOTC you?

The bad mod is about 2 vigs in a 13-player mini!!! Okay to be fair that would only make you a bad setup-disigner.
And yes, I am perhaps a bit angry about thinks like

Because no one actually has a lick of sense other than me + a few others

The problem is getting enough town vote when most of the town is busy shitting their pants over vig counterclaims

Holy hell ms towns are brain-damaged

and other thinks from other player.

Thanks to BuJaber and Maki for staying civil.

You can WOTC me. Or easier tell me to never join a game with you again. Perfectly in your right.

I will not make you the offer to replace out, because I don't think that I was that much out of line.

[StefanB]

And Kiana this were her scum and townpoints. I was waiting for BuJaber to tell me, what of them were good, I think besides Archwing and one for Kokichi they don't seem real, but make up your mind:
Scumpoints:

Raskolnikov: Scumpoints for nonsensepost in RVS, voting Maki in RVS, The RonaldMcDonaldstory, for stating a townread very strongly(Wh4t), doubeling for voting her, for a joke/fake scumpoints(399), for trying to townread her(249), when there is nothing in the post, that goes in that direction
Archwing: Scumpoints for RVSvote, Scumpoints for nonsense/fluffpost(168), twice, for starting a waggon on a random player, for an inconsistance between scumlist and stated reeds

Mixed:
Wh4t: Townpoints for a vote(me), minus for changing his vote to Cedric, for good analysis, Pat on the back(because max-out for the votes), but removed for moving the vote to a scumread
Gamma: Townpoints for a vote(me), Scumpoints for voting her(only a small part remains after the unvote)

Townpoints:

Cedric: Masive townpoints for jokes(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), Townpoints for a vote(Arch)
Kokichi: Townpoints for a vote(Arch), For bringing up inconsistance between Archwings scumlist and reads before
BuJaber: For his first post
Brass: For post 197, for the vote on Arch

[StefanB]

I'll have you know I have designed decent setups before, plus I think 2 vigs isn't that nuts, in fact I think a Normal (which this game has been stated to be based around rule-wise) there were even and odd night vigs. While this is different it's still about the same idea.

There is a huge difference kill-vice even/odd vigs are more like one vig divided in 2 players.
If you design setups do the math yourself.
With x-shot vigs we have 3 deaths per night and a confirmed 10:3, both vigs confirmed as town.
I would not say 2 of a role are somethink strange if it wasn't the vig. In a large okay, posible.

[StefanB]

I quote Mastina about this in postgame(experienced mod)
Like, yes. The town had the strongest roles you can give a town:

Two alternating vigs (which for the sake of balance, are considered loosely equivalent to a single full Vigilante), cop, and Watcher are in fact three of the five strongest town roles we have in Normals. (The other two being Doctor and Jailkeeper, natch.)

The game was, undoubtedly, swingy. No two ways about it. ANY game with a vig will be. No ifs, ands, or buts. Vigs are one of the most swingy roles in existence, the most swingy role singleball has. Cops and watchers both are swingy roles as well, and so too was the scum role depending on how well or how poorly it was used. But the simple fact of the matter is, swingy setups can still be balanced, and this setup was about as balanced as it could get given the unpredictability of how many differing factors there were.

Here are the points about vig.

[StefanB]

And the 2 confirmed town, that is mentioned in there as problem is here bigger. An even-night vig is confirm on day 3, here both vigs are confirmed on day 2.
So more swingy, faster game end, faster confirmation, there are towns of difference between even/odd and 2 x-shot vigs.

[StefanB]

I am just scanning the games.
There is one Large Normal were there were 2 vigs, but I am not sure if even/oddnight and it is a large. (Dunkerdoodles large normal, anyone who really played that, knows about the vigs?) But it is a large.
Now checking archived normals, I am sure to never find 2 full vigs/x-shot vigs in a mini.

[StefanB]

So I scanned the whole mini-normalarchivetread:
Game 1401-1954
Games with 3 nightkills per night 4, games with 2 vigs that weren't even/odd: 0.
The combi SK,Mafia/vig exists (not in this game), 2 vigs don't.

[StefanB]

Bu: I am still hoping that a wild Beefster or Kaito apears and we don't have to compromise.
I am not sure where I compromise then. I think that would mean go again and ignore Kiana for the rest of the day. (Cedric only ignore as waggon)

[StefanB]

Situation is more complicated:
Maki/Bu: Don't think that we have 2 vigs, the just thing lynching among the vigs is bad.
Gamma/Hiraki: Who knows
We have 2 players inactive.

[StefanB]

And for the 4 players above we are terribad, because we want to lynch there.

[StefanB]

I think me/Gamma was the most ugly discusion today.
If the deadline would be less than 6 days I would check out until then and then comprimise if I have to.

[StefanB]

And I am not frustrated of Maki/BuJaber: I disagree with you, but I can see where you are coming from (sort of) and can still talk to you both.
That is more difficult with the other two.

[StefanB]

Planing the mafia discusionpost post game allready.
Normal game: Player run to L-1, gets CC, what do you do?

And I am not inocent in the whole think, but my problem is with both Hiraki and Gamma I don't know where I can even start to find a common discusionground.

P-Edit: Don't know I tecnicly played in that game, but I have never read it. Mulch mentioned somethink about 2 vigs post game. I didn't find anythink post-game that gave it completly away, but I shouldn't have mentioned it, it was a large.


But I checked 550 games, result the combo you, Hiraki and Kiana are proposing right now happened never in any game. The 3 nightkills in a game were mentioned as problematic by at last on revier, and of course town was pisted in the 2 I checked (4 of that 550 games had the combo Mafia/SK/vig, one of them with Dayvig).

And hello, I already said, that I would have a problem with odd-night/even-night vig, they are for review-perpuse, for nightkills etc the same as 1 full vig.
So you are trying to equal apples and oranges.

[StefanB]

To be clear I checked your link, and did link comments from on of the reviers, that should make clear what the difference is between the situation in your game and our theoretical situation...

[StefanB]

e-dit: I didn't link I did quote mastinas comments from postgame.

[StefanB]

Kokichi: Can you convince Bujaber, Maki, Gama or Hiraki?
I can't.
Or can you make Beefster or Kaito appear?

[StefanB]

Wh4t: You are at the moment not even on the waggon...

[StefanB]

Okay, we don't have to votes. We could wait now a few days and let this go to deadline. And shout and call each other names and let this game go complitly of the reels
You have to admite when you lost. I leave my vote on Kiana, while sorting that out.

So lets look for Kianas partner.
It would be easy to lynch in Gamma/Hiraki, who were the most frustrating.
But smart scum would at last try to look like the have a point. So we should probably lynch among Maki/BuJaber/Beefster/Kaito.
Now on Kaito I have nothink, and Maki will be harder to lynch.
You can tell me what you think I will check back later.

[StefanB]

Right Wh4t claimed to be okay to be shoot. He also kind of screwed up his fakeclaimpotential with the hint.
Rask: Any idea what to do now? Because we have to much players who want Kiana alive.
Gamma: Okay, your point just lost me completly. But if you want you can join the potential Kianabuddylynchpool.

Okay people have said, not to claim unnecesary, but I may have somethink to claim that concerns another player.

[StefanB]

Also wh4t hammer talk was long before he could be sure that no one would have lynched Kiana.
If he wanted to not let that happen, he could say no, could have said "player x" convinced him that Kiana is not scum, etc...
Wh4t has actually been pretty consistant in a pool of Maki, Gamma, Beef as Kianas Partner.
It isn't scummy for town to not want to die.

I don't want to kill the discusion this is why at the moment I only tease.

[StefanB]

Gamma: Lets play a game.
If the lynchpool is Maki, BuJaber, Beef, Kaito, Hiraki anyone you would lynch from them?

[StefanB]

Cedric: Same game.

[StefanB]

Can someone translate Kokichi?

[StefanB]

So we have 2 partial vig's. They both claimed X-shot. So it's like a regular vig.

Yeah it's strong. Yeah it's unlikely. But I'm not placing my bets on my two biggest town reads.

Let them make their kills. See how it pans out. Revisit it on D2.

I think I've made it pretty clear that I town read them both, putting aside claims.

Is pretty clear that it is not.
Okay my blackout.

[StefanB]

So okay we have L-1 again. Now we can work.

[StefanB]

Didn't see Cedrics post.

[StefanB]

I try to analyse thinks, yes.

Kianas motivation is dificult. In my opinion since we were discusing were the vig should shoot, taking part in it, makes sense.

I am more confused why she posted:

day over yet?

If she didn't want to lynch in the vigs, that makes not much sense.

[StefanB]

Hiraki: Do you read all of them as town?

[StefanB]

Gamma: I find it interesting, that even you would like this day to be over.

[StefanB]

Maki: Since you are here, a few question:

Will lynch anyone that's not the vigs

No townread that you prefer no to lynch?

Why did you exspect the day to be over, when it was clear that the only way would be a lynch in the vigs?

[StefanB]

Okay I am thinking about asking Mathdino to do somethink that has never been done before.
Taking the extension that we got when Hiraki replaced in, back...

lolno - Math

[StefanB]

Maki to be clear, if we don't lynch in the vigs, then (minus some stuff) you will not be shooted by a vig.

One question for our vigs (would like Kiana to answer first): If your shot is blocked, what happens next?

Other news: About Beefster: we have a quicktopic together. We are neighbours. I am the Joker.
I will tell you more later.

Kaito: That deppends where do we have to start the discusion:

Two town x-shot vigs have never been a think on this site in a mini-normal. We are a confirmed 10:3 what makes 2 vigs even more a big nope on balance.
So we have scum among the claims.
If that were another situation whith claim and CC we would lynch here, (or think about if 2 of this roles are posible). 50 % on day 1 is good odds.
Some players think we should react differently because it is the vigs.
Now were are you at?

[StefanB]

Bu and everyone else in the reasonable we shouldn't lynch a vigcamp(I call it the anti-camp in this post):

It is more thinking about the worst case scenario. Scum can mess with townpowerroles is not a too outrages posibility. JK,RB or doctor are just the roles everyone has in their mind, because they are clasic. (There are 2 other roles that are explicite normal and could mess the plan of the anticamp up, one of them only if the false vig has them)
One or more of this roles being in the game and the danger that they are in scumhands is posible
I don't want to state it here, but everyone should be able to think about reall worst case scenario.

Would it have been better for Cedric to shoot Kiana at night, hell yes, if it doesn't work claim day 2, hell yes!!!
Making a case on her, wouldn't have been worked.

I think at the moment we have the problem that everyone assumes they are the one thinking logical and they others aren't.
I give you and Kiana at last that you are thinking logical(Others in the anti-camp probably also), I think you are just ignoring the danger I stated above.
In the lets lynch a vigcamp I am aware of the posibility to lynch wrong, but:
a) I don't think the probability is that high.
b) Even if we are wrong, one death scum on day 2 is still far from worst case.

This is the crux of the whole think. Everyone is thinking the are the smart ones and thinking the others or some of them(I hope the anti-camp does that) is braindamaged. Nope, probably no one is braindamaged. But what I am asking the players in the anti-camp is this, think this trough again.

Kiana made the following comment:

If there are any scum who wish to counterclaim, to try to get me lynched, you can go ahead and do so.

We can settle this at night, Texas style.

She posted that about 15 minutes after her claim.
If shows an awareness of CC. And if scum the claim isn't from Kiana alone, scum has daytalk and the danger of Kiana getting to L-1 was there and they could prepare.
What if Kiana is a goon/has a VT safeclaim, doesn't it make sense that she claims a Powerrole then?

[StefanB]

Gamma: Not assuming that every disagreeing with them is an idiot.

Bu: I do.

First I didn't hunt for a slip. I just tryed to tell you that if Kiana was scum, she did prepare for the posibility of a CC and she had help.
You are right in one point vig would not have been my first choice to fakeclaim in Kianas position.

I am torn, between telling somethink outright. It tells scum what I consider for them the best play here, but on the other hand there have been enough hints that I think they could figure it out, should I tell?

[StefanB]

So how about people just stop with the insults overall and just play the game.

Fifty. We have called each other bad, braindead, etc...
This isn't helping.

I want to defend BuJaber in this case. He is trying to discuss the situation and has been pretty civil about it, overall.
Was that not the nicest way to formulate thinks, yes. Do I think that if you ignore the tone, their is a point to his post, yes.
There is a frustration that nearly every player in this game is showing. (exept Kiana I think)

[StefanB]

Hiraki: I have not stated my worst scenario, yet.
I has been hinted in the tread.

[StefanB]

Actually Raskolnikov did allready out my wcs.
What if day 2 starts and none of the vigclaims are dead...

[StefanB]

About my quicktopic with Beefster: I wanted to give him time to respond, but since it has been some time and we could reach a hammer.
I will give you the highlights. Note Beefster played this tight.
Every discusion was initialized by me.

Highlights:

We both talked briefly about breaks (that was my first RVS in years and Beefster had a 6 years break himself)

I am probably resposible for the questioning of the millerclaim.
I stated my suspicion that the Joker is town, without beeing a miller and Krusty is a miller.

I asked him about the reaction to Raskolnikovs first post.
He answered he found it strange. And called RMD a joke that has to be made.

I was posting about suspicion on Kiana exspecially about her trying to buddying up to me.
He said he considered it normal.

After the vigclaim he called Cedric and Kiana his top townreads.

[StefanB]

Gamma: Church of Kail: What does that mean?
I know only the statistics from newbie-games.
No-Lynch day 1 has a very highscumrate. Every other lynch is better.

[StefanB]

This game is a clown fest

I agree with Kokichi.
When did Kokichi become a voice of reason for this game?
Raskolnikov thanks for trying.

Rant time:
No lynch (Maki and BuJaber really we are discusing that, what the hell!!!!!!)
Hiraki: I know you don't want to lynch in the vigs. What are you at the moment at, out of that.

[StefanB]

Bu: Thanks.
Hiraki beeing against lynching in the vigs is somethink that I got from his postings the last few days.

[StefanB]

So now wh4t is at L-1. Normally we would ask for an intent and then to claim.
But since 3 days 6 hours deadline and the general situation, I would ask for your claim now wh4t.

[StefanB]

Since I am still loking for a chance to hammer the scum, but I like the alternative Hiraki better than Wh4t.
At the moment I know that Hiraki has a scumpool of wh4t, Bujaber and Kaito.
Since the CC we haven't seen much that makes sense from him.

Gamma: What exactly is your logic?

[StefanB]

Kaito: What are you at. You are at the moment on a waggon, that looks kind of dead and we haven't heard much off your opinions, anythink you want to share?

[StefanB]

Cedric: I was pretty sure that Gamma was town, so not so great shot, but two deads make you confirmed town.

The people of the waggon/or very relucant voters:

Hiraki I am still unsure of, but I see him as not as much as a candidate for scum as yesterday.

Beefster and I had a bit of talk, and I don't want to lynch him at the moment.

Maki has a few strikes against her:
1. She is a beloved miller.
2. Kiana was defending her pretty strong at the begining of day 1, while having her as nullread.
3. Her not lynching in the vigs even if the only alternative is no-lynch makes no sense when she believed that one of them had to be scum.

VOTE: Maki

Kaito: Is there a posibility to get him more active?
A vote or two perhaps?

BuJaber: Okay I see the scumread. But in the end he did hammer Kiana. I don't want to vote him as an absent player at the moment.

[StefanB]

I agree on the last part.
I am just thinking Makis push was more scummy than BuJabers.
Perhaps it is wrong but I was glad to have Bu yesterday. He was someone from the other side who was easy to talk to, so he is not number 1 on my lynchlist.

Btw congratulation to Kokichi who was right with the bulletproof, that was good inside in Kiana.

[StefanB]

Maki:
We don't know if we still can vig you, Cedric hasn't told us. Could be that he was one-shot.
On your list, why shouldn't you be on the list of different players?

Any thought on BuJaber, who has 2 votes, but isn't on the list?
Or Kaito, who isn't a lynchpriority but he is very lurky and I still can't see why you townread him?

[StefanB]

About the track:
I have a completly blank.
Okay scum doing the nightkill and having another action, but that can't be the case here.
Probably a greylistrole I am not thinking of.
And is there a particular reason to out it, since there is nothink from that that is giving us any info about aligment?

Cedric: I will look about it, I remember that neither Beefster nor BuJaber were on Archwing.
Hiraki was on him, but more of a vote not a big push(Brash was also on it, but Hiraki unvoted after he replaced in) , the same with Kaito (but Kaito stay longer)
Maki pushed the not between the vigs, but wasn't on the Archwingwaggon also.
Kokichi did push the Archwingwaggon quite a bit, but pushed Kiana after the CC, but after that the waggon was kind of dead.

Here are the players that voted Archwing for more anylisys I haven't got time (only going by modvotecounts):

(Cedrick), Kokichi Oma, (Kiana Kaslana), brassherald/Hiraki, Raskolnikov, Kaito Momota, Wh4t

Strong and weak doesn't mean here how strong the push the lynch/or were more following.

Kokichi was strong
Hiraki weak (mostly not more than the vote here)/Brass voted before the replace was a bigger push but none I would consider strong.
Kaito (only one to stay until deadline) was a vote not more.
Rask interesting vote, voted Kiana before and after that vote, only got off, when he didn't believe he couldn't get a Kianawaggon, still didn't stopp his attacks on Kiana.
Wh4t: voted Archwing 3 times, con voted Kiana also a couple of times. First was kind of not strong, the other ones send Archwing to near lynch.

Funny is that there is a parallel between Kokichi and Ras, both scumread both Archwing and Kiana, Kokichi was before the claims on Archwing and Ras was mostly attacking Kiana.

[StefanB]

Vote Count 1-21

Hammer? I barely know her!

Kiana, stop drinking on the job... you look completely hammered!

...I'll be here all Night, folks.

Archwing (1, L-6)

: Kaito Momota

Kiana Kaslana

(7, L-0)

: Cedrick, Kokichi Oma, StefanB, Archwing, Wh4t, Raskolnikov, BuJaber

Wh4t (3, L-4)

: Beefster, Gamma Emerald, Kiana Kaslana

BuJaber (1, L-6)

: Hiraki

Hiraki (1, L-6)

: Maki Harukawa

Not Voting (0)

:

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline:

(expired on 2018-03-29 14:00:00)

Mod Notes:

- Flip incoming, flavour coming later.

Wh4t wagon was at least 2/3 town, and since Beefster was first on it I don't think it especially implicates him

Nope: ?,town,scum.

[StefanB]

I remembered 2 that I could belive are one the graylist. (one of them would be good play by Kokichi, the other not so much)
The good play one would be a more usful one for town. (ak I won't bother actial using it as scum)

Kokichi think about revealing it, if it gives the town info, because scum does allready know that you did somethink.

Pre-edit at Maki: If you believed that Kiana would flip scum, your stand about the lynch yesterday made zero sense.

[StefanB]

Okay I got an answer from the mod about one of the more antitownrole that I thought of.
But in this case Maki and Kaito would have been informed, that somethink had happened. And if even one of them is town, they would have told us, exspecially after Bus claim.
So he probably isn't a cupid.

The other role that I know of was also a investment, but would make sense to target Maki, because it would give a clear ino or guilty on Kaito, but that would be good to have out.

[StefanB]

My problem with Kiana as scum going after Raskolnikov scum to distance is that she got after him with a lot a crap.
Raskolnikov: Scumpoints for nonsensepost in RVS, voting Maki in RVS, The RonaldMcDonaldstory, for stating a townread very strongly(Wh4t), doubeling for voting her, for a joke/fake scumpoints(399), for trying to townread her(249), when there is nothing in the post, that goes in that direction

Her case on him was pretty much crap and if you want to push a scumpartner she would have a bit more, perhaps even get help in the QT from her partner.

On the todolist, read a few scumgames of her, to get a feal how she treads her partners.

[StefanB]

I would also like to know.

Somethink else Kokichi you seemed to know Kianas scumgame.
Can you link me to a few of her scumgames?

[StefanB]

Okay I will not tell much about Hirakis case, I would call it interesting.

Which - when actually revealed for current flips has Town in BOTH Town and Scum piles. Therefore, I think it's pretty guaranteed that one of StefanB and Rask is scum.

Since Kiana is missing in it. I could garantie that Kianas 4 townreads and her 3 scumreads both contean scum.

I can not say that I know how much the push was more or less on me.
I knew that she called Raskolnikov her biggest scumread (with her system) but mostly voted Archwing.
I know I am her only scumread that she never voted, and it is interesting that she dropped the read after my attack started.

I know that some of her post seemed like she wasn't even reading my posts.
460-466 came after I had started to attack her(arround the time she stopped the scumread), then she did try to get on my good site, by appealing how good I am and experience and all that...
In the end she called me bad.

[StefanB]

Argh Edit:
Since Kiana is missing in it. I could garantie that Kianas 4 townreads and her 3 scumreads both contean scum.
Should read Since Kiana is missing in it. I could garantie that Kianas 4 townreads and her 3 scumreads both contean

town even before anyone else flipped.

[StefanB]

Hello northsidegal,
I don't think any of the players have your slot as locktown, a townread perhaps but locktown no.

Maki:
Is northsidegal in your experience hard to read or only hard to lynch?

[StefanB]

VOTE: Hiraki,

L-2

I still don't like his contribution since the CC one bit. (Would have to search if I even think one post was good)
I think he is own of the most likly partners for Kiana from his play.

I think she is more likly to townread her partners or see them as null.

Townreads:
Town
Cedrick +++++
Kokichi Oma +++
Wh4t ++
brassherald ++
Bujaber +

Gamma Emerald 0.5

Null:
Beefster 0
Maki Harukawa <3
Kaito Momota 0

Now of the waggon: Bras/Hiraki, Beefster, Maki.
I personally don't want to lynch Beefster today. This is my position.

[StefanB]

Mostly my point was you make sense as scum.
I hope for a different claim, that would have told me if you are scum or not.
UNVOTE: Hiraki
Btw: If Hiraki was scum, would you have sent him to do the nightkill yesterday?

[StefanB]

Hello Bujaber:

His replacement thought he was, so nothing.

About you following Koichi, why did you out the result? What do you think it looks like?

If Hiraki was scum, would you have sent him to do the nightkill yesterday?

[StefanB]

The last one was for everyone.
If you were scum, would Hiraki have done the nk last night.
I have a reason for this question, trust me on this.

About replacing out, you believe you can do this game, if you realise that you can't then I would.

[StefanB]

Town neo is only good if we have a lot of VTs.
I am not one, Beefster is not one. (Neighbours)

[StefanB]

We actually have 8 non vanillaclaims (or flipps)
(Cedric, Archwing Confirmed)
Bujaber, Kokichi, Maki, Hiraki, StefanB, Beefster
We have 2 VT (claim or confirmed):
Wh4t, Gamma

I think we look at the actions, is there if Bujaber is a scumtracker a reason to target Kokichi?
Maki is either telling the truth or a beloved scumrole.
It was theoreticly posible that both neighbours would fall on scum, so no garantie there.
Hiraki claiming a similar role to Kiana is interesting, but posible.

[StefanB]

I am VLA for today and the rest of tomorrow

I couldn't reach this site yesterday and today when I tried.
I have a lot on my plate at the moment, so I don't know if I can post tomorrow.

[StefanB]

Yes my reason for not wanting to vote Beefster is QT related.
Hiraki vs Maki vs Kaito:

Lets go with Kaito: No read. Maki has him as complete town. If we lynch here then we lynch Maki.

Hiraki: Scumreading yes. And I think I should reveal what I know. Hiraki didn't do the NK. I will not say more and not say who I know this.

[StefanB]

Hiraki: Was that directed at me?
Sorry my vote was opurtunistic I believe you were scum and I had a chance to catch you. Didn't work.
I also have reason to believe that Kiana didn't scumread her buddies but can't tell why, yet.
I declare you beeing scum with Koichi is imposible, more happy?

[StefanB]

Ras: I meaned that I started with Kaito.
The slot is one I can't read.
The only reason I am not pushing it, is Maki.
She has a townread on him, a very strong one.
If Maki is town, that implies something.
If she is scum, that means he is probably town.

Hiraki: I have some info about you. What info I have is posted. I will not make this more clear.
Sorry I can't do more than hint about Kiana and scumbuddys at the moment.
I am not trying to be confusing here, I unfortunatly could be.

What of, I can confirm that Hiraki didn't kill at night, is unclear?
PS: I am not voting you at the moment.

[StefanB]

I bother because I thought it could be interesting and important about Kiana.
Sorry wanted to do to many thinks at once and the whole think just got out of hands.

Hiraki: Why do you think that Kiana had her scumbuddys in her 3 scumreads?
Just assume for a moment I am town, is there anythink in particular that you want me to understand from your positions?

Ras: Maki fucked up, I think in reading Koichi, did interprete somethink wrong that gave her a scumread.

[StefanB]

Hiraki: What theory do you think, I am taking as fact?
I voted you at L-3, for reasons that I stated and hinted.

I am torn at the moment between voting you again, even if that isn't optimal play at the moment or doing something else.

VOTE: Kaito, read in Be yourself mafia, that makes him more active.

[StefanB]

I am not refering to a theory at the moment.

If that is the reason I asked if people thaught scum would sent you to do the nk, that was what was stopping me. I stated it a few times, that I have a certain knowledge about you(not a theory). Believe it or don't.
I would disagree that someone who makes no sense for a long time couldn't be scum.
I did state that I am scumreading you at the moment, could this be for the wrong reasons, perhaps.
But if you have a lot of players that you have as verious degree of town, PoE is not scummy.

[StefanB]

What knowledge of me do you have? I did nothing last night, I'm not scum, and I'm still a 2-shot BP. Please, tell me this incriminating information now and stop playing around. If you have something against me (you don't), then bring it up.

You can disagree but it's still not a scumtell. You never mentioned PoE before. If that's the case, what's your pile?

I have as a mentioned before the information that you didn't performe the NK. At the moment of my vote I didn't have the information of your role.
After I had that info I was not voting you.
I am scumreading you, but made that info public.
I think I am clear what I am stating.

[StefanB]

Ced:
If you believe I am town, it should be enough. There are posibilitys for getting such informations.

For example Bujaber (and we) knows that Koichi didn't perform the NK. I don't have the same kind of info, but my situation is similar enough.

[StefanB]

Hi Kiana. Efficient, I like it. I can agree with your Arch and StefanB reads. The Rask read seems a little biased from the start in regards to his opening RVS vote on Maki; your deduction based on that, I initially thought was in jest, however you seem to have built on it looking for reasons for scum Rask more so than town Rask. I do agree that his hard town read of me was suspicious but in the context of his ISO I still lean town overall. Perhaps you're more familiar with him?

I moved my vote to Cedrick to get a reaction and I'm growing more convinced that he is heavily confirmation biased town. So I can agree with that read too.

I find it odd that you have not weighed in on the content from Maki and Brass so far.

I'm happy to vote Arch later in the day if nothing changes but I'm remiss to vote the only person familiar with me right now.

UNVOTE:

Hi Kiana. Efficient, I like it. I can agree with your Arch and StefanB reads. The Rask read seems a little biased from the start in regards to his opening RVS vote on Maki; your deduction based on that, I initially thought was in jest, however you seem to have built on it looking for reasons for scum Rask more so than town Rask. I do agree that his hard town read of me was suspicious but in the context of his ISO I still lean town overall. Perhaps you're more familiar with him?

I moved my vote to Cedrick to get a reaction and I'm growing more convinced that he is heavily confirmation biased town. So I can agree with that read too.

I find it odd that you have not weighed in on the content from Maki and Brass so far.

I'm happy to vote Arch later in the day if nothing changes but I'm remiss to vote the only person familiar with me right now.

UNVOTE:

Hi!

I've never played with Raskol before, so we're starting on equal ground here.

Maki and Brass appears to not have made any content that warrants alignment-indicative townpoints. This is reflected in my list above.

Raskol appears to be scummy and has obtained many scumpoints. The specific posts in question have been flagged above, and the number of scumpoints is also reflected in the above list.

Considering that I read the game from start to finish, I give extra credit to players who obtain the same conclusions that I do, while I'm reading the thread. It proves that they are working from a town mindset, with good initiative, and without my intervention.

Do you not find suspicious the fact that Raskol scumreads Beefster for asking about Ronald Mcdonald but turns a blind eye to Stefan (coincidentally, a scumread of mine too) who blatantly rolefishes for both flavour and role?

It's like yelling at the person who just farted in the room but completely ignoring that hobo taking a poop on the floor.

Do you not find suspicious the fact that Raskol scumreads Beefster for asking about Ronald Mcdonald but turns a blind eye to Stefan (coincidentally, a scumread of mine too) who blatantly rolefishes for both flavour and role?

It's like yelling at the person who just farted in the room but completely ignoring that hobo taking a poop on the floor.

That's quite the metaphor lol.

It can see how it's suspicious however I feel he's making the same mistake that Cedrick is making by only sorting interactions that involve him directly.

So, StefanB got my attention straight away as I came into the game a bit later and so was assessing everything while catching up. Rask was interacting real time with others, Maki in particular, and could have brushed it off as early RVS fluff content. The "role-fish" read from Beefster was directed at him so he was more likely to assess that post IMO.

Pedit I agree that tunneling is typically a scummy tactic. I'll have to watch Rask a little closer.

Btw: I wanted to post that as a reminder, I remembered that the wh4t-Kiana post game me a strange vibe in the beginning. Can someone look at them again?

[StefanB]

Koichi:

Kiana: She started to vote Archwing, which she had higher first, then stayed on that waggon.
Then voted Hiraki, in a strange OMGOSway.
I remembered the next vote Wh4t came relative late, when I thought okay now voting tells aren't that reliable (for Kiana at that moment)
She voted Raskolnikov only after that and chanced to Wh4t to survive.

I don't think from Rask the play was to strange her.
The unvote after the vig was normal. (A vigclaim is in a mininormal, garantied 10:3 a very good reason to unvote)
His revote made sense.
When he unvoted her, I was also near giving up, because it did like we couldn't get Kiana lynched.
One of the reasons I don't see it, because I give him huge credit, in trying to get Bujaber(and succeding) and Gamma to vote Kiana.

[StefanB]

Hiraki: Scumreading yes. And I think I should reveal what I know. Hiraki didn't do the NK. I will not say more and not say who I know this.

that heavily implies you know more and are concealing more about my role based on your current words.

That also, heavily implies that I scumread you, but have info that makes it less likly that you are scum. (I think it makes it clear)
Yes, it makes it clear that I am not telling everythink.
Since stating this I haven't chanced on bit from that message.
What do you fear I am ipplying?

[StefanB]

Wht4 hasn’t done anything to make me feel better about that slot.

I don’t remember seen a lot of content from beefster either (did I miss some?)

I’m fine lynching rask or Hiraki cause I don’t town read either.

@stefan if you are hinting you blocked Hiraki we need to discuss this.

Okay. Since it is confirmed town asking.
I am hinting at a jk, yes.
What exactly is the problem with it?

I had to stay away from your vig, but wanted to use it.

Re Hiraki: I was scumreading him and was sure you weren't targetting him.
This why I posted what I posted at the beginning of the day.
I never really stopped scumreading, him so when the waggon formed I voted him.
My hope was that he was scum and posted an active role, where I could bust him as scum (you all can call this rectless, bad play or whatever)
This is why I unvoted when he claimed.

Re Kianna: Yeah I wasn't completly honest, I knew one of the roles that could mess with the kill was in my hand, but I didn't tell that in this situation.
If we lynched wrong than the JK became easy.

What other problem is there?

[StefanB]

Ask it. Or does it hurt, when I know the question?

[StefanB]

Now balancewise a RB/JK duplicate is not that swingy and dangerous as 2 vigs. I am a little afraid what power scum has to counter all that.
I was once in a game that had 2 trackers for example (was a large, btw). There are rules what to do for a conflict between rb and jk.
I would wate for Maki, she has some thoughts re unbreakable setup.

[StefanB]

Hiraki: At the moment of the JK?
Between:

I agree with Kokichi.
When did Kokichi become a voice of reason for this game?

Btw congratulation to Kokichi who was right with the bulletproof, that was good inside in Kiana.

Gave you the idea I was scumreading him at that time?

And:

Since I am still loking for a chance to hammer the scum, but I like the alternative Hiraki better than Wh4t.
At the moment I know that Hiraki has a scumpool of wh4t, Bujaber and Kaito.
Since the CC we haven't seen much that makes sense from him.

Didn't tell you that I had a problem with your posts?

And I give that:

Hiraki I am still unsure of, but I see him as not as much as a candidate for scum as yesterday.

was perhaps not the most ellegant try to get my crump across (that if I die at night that I did target you), but imposible that I jk here, really?
I was also trying to avoid blocking the vig, so I didn't target Maki for example.

P-Edit:

My alignment isn't dependent on the shot. You're just testing my role at this point and probably guaranteeing death.

Huh? What doe you mean with guarenteeing death?

[StefanB]

And to tell the story further: I stayed silent of Hiraki because I didn't want to weaken the crump.
When he was near lynch I voted him in the hope he claims and I could catch him at a falseclaim.
I couldn't so I unvoted.
I had a bad feeling about letting the lynch trough without letting town know this parrtly ino.

We can talk how my stance on Hiraki doesn't make sense, if you all want.
He can continue to believe that I didn't JK him.
I don't have to tell him, why I do scumread him, even if he has less chance to be scum.
I am not making a case on Hiraki, because I am not trying to get him lynched.

And yeah, if you don't want to tell me, why you claim 2-shot-activated bulletproof, Cedric shoots you to test your claim (btw you know that he does), you die, doesn't implied that it means Cedric shoots you- you die aka you fakeclaimed its okay. (This is very theoretical)

I mean please give me the same curtesy that I give you that the other person playing is not a complete idiot.

[StefanB]

There is a conflict between read and logic, nothing new:

Hiraki: Scumreading yes. And I think I should reveal what I know. Hiraki didn't do the NK. I will not say more and not say who I know this.

How should be instead of who.
I I could have been more clear if I posted a but instead of an and. To my defence I deleted that post a few times.

Rask: My problem is the following, he had his chance:
I am not a full jk, I am only odd-night, you can kind of guess the rest...
I did not want to lynch Beefster today to get the info.
And didn't want to stopp you, finding out if the whole situation was posible and keeped quite until then.
I agree 3 kind of JK as town, it gets a bit unrealistic.
He claimed first btw.

[StefanB]

We have confirmed a neapolitan and a joat with vig and block
Claimed:
A tracker, which is an okay investigationrole.
On odd- and one even nightjk. (neighbours)
Maki who claimed a negative utilityrole
2-shot activated BB
whatever Koichi and Rask are.

What speaks pro Beefster is Kiana:
She was an even-night strongman. (odd-night bulletproof), if Beefster is scum, why is she bp in even-nights?

[StefanB]

I asked him a question on someone else's opinion on why he voted me. How does that correlate to my opinion?

I know Hiraki doesn't want to explain his post exspecially to me, but I really don't understand him here, can someone explain?

OK - so you voted me without telling me what the scumtell is, good talk?

Execpt I kind of allready did, explain my vote? I mixed that in that post what wasn't that great, I give you.
But getting from the post:
1. My theory is that Kiana did townread her partners or had them as null.
2. At last one of Kianas partners was against lynching in the vigs yesterday.

Even if the first one is unnecessary this gives me a pool of players.
Some I townread, some I don't...
Now voting the player with the biggest waggon on them from them, would not require a big case, on it.
Combine it, with the JK and the hope that I could catch you in a lie that would make you 100% confirmed scum.

I don't really think I do need more for a vote. I have voted for far less.

I will not respond to this further if it comes only from Hiraki, because I don't believe this comes from good faith.
He is either scum, who is trying to mudsling, or town who is in a tunnel and no longer able to think thinks throught, because he sees my name and screams mentally "scum, scum, scum".

[StefanB]

northsidegal:
You have replaced a few days ago, were are you at the moment?
Anythink you can share or anythink we can help you with?

[StefanB]

Hiraki: What discusion are you trying to have with me?

Do you want to know, why I voted you? You have the reasons.
Do you want to see if my claim that I JK you, is true? You have all you need.

What are we discusing at the moment in your opinion exactly?

[StefanB]

Okay, now it is over, so I can talk about it, and no longer creep on the game.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=74973
In Steam VN UPick Kiana was scum with Taroumaru and Kokichi.
This is how she did post in her first reading list:

Okay, so, I think that town right now are Maki Harukawa,

Taroumaru, Kokichi

, Espeonage, Lady Lambdadelta, Chucky Says Cheese, meow.

Scum are likely in Alisae, Smocaine, 33p, Ramcius, hebichan/NyanSequitor meow.

Okay it is a sample of one game, but Kiana tends to townread her scumpartners.
Townread in this game: (left out Cedric and Gamma)

Kokichi Oma +++
Wh4t ++
brassherald ++ (only in second list)
Bujaber + (only in second list)

Kokichi you were scum with Kiana in this game, why do you think he treated her scumbuddys different in this game?

Now the reason for the points:
BuJaber: For his first post
Brass/Hiraki: For post 197, for the vote on Arch
Kokichi: Townpoints for a vote(Arch), For bringing up inconsistance between Archwings scumlist and reads before
Wh4t: Townpoints for a vote(me), minus for changing his vote to Cedric, for good analysis, Pat on the back(because max-out for the votes), but removed for moving the vote to a townread of Kitana

The question is for me was any of this more constructed. Unfortunatly every read of Kiana looks constructed as hell.
I had a few instances were the post between Wh4t and Kiana looked like a conection.
Interesting that exept Bu this plus Beefster is the list Maki posted in the beginning of today.
(She was town in this game)
VOTE: Northsidgal (to think outside the box)

[StefanB]

Warning wall incoming, I will put it in a spoiler:

Hiraki, you really want to know why I have problems with you, here it is post by post:

Spoiler:

Gamma, if you had to choose between Cedrick and Kiana, which one is scum?

This was your first post, after the dualclaims, I looks perfectly reasonable, until you remember, that you never answered this question yourself.

To note, this ignores if there's a possibility of 2 vigs.

This is the first real bad post. It was the first post that brought that rubish into the discusion, something that gave Kiana an out and I don't see townmotivation in it.

After Raskolnikov ask why he would ask that and if he believes that is normal.

Not a good question to ask me. I was mainly asking for his opinion - which is why I put the caveat there.

Yuk, doubling down on the two vigs, not really thinking about if his opinion made sense and denying resposible.

I know I'm voting Arch right now but I am trying to figure that question out. Like I said, I am absolutely horrible at balancing and figuring out what is good and bad PR play. You can check my history on that.

I'm gonna metadive before deciding where I should place my vote. Gut had a strong feeling of bullshit when Kiana claimed but mind, as per usual, casted doubt based off of the hint and Kiana's ability.

Okay I was perhabs slighly hiperbole, this posting wouldn't have been bad, if he ever followed up on it. So more empty promise the second time.

After Raskolnikov asked about the vig and why CC.

thats the point

if hes a nilla, its golden rn, except for this

Its the first post I am not completly understanding (what he means by golden rn), it discrips the game

Next post after Maki pointed out, that she doesn't believe in scum doctor or scumBP.

I'm with Maki here. Kiana is at L-2.

Was the moment for me that Hiraki who made even a ounce of sense left the game. Before he was okay with lynching in the vigs now he is in full-Kiana defencemode, this post alone would make him a suspect.

When the discusion continues:

You don't even need to be good at thinking about balancing to know how this balancing doesn't make sense. citation - ME

Will not agree on Koki scum though. If anyone lost points here, it was Stefan tbh townbloc is crumbling down a little

Whatever. I am not quite sure, what got him there. Me telling Kokichi that it didn't believe in the scumdoctor or asking why players didn't want to vote Kiana.

Next post a bit more difficult to quote.
When he was questioned, why he was so concerned that Kiana was at L-2.

She was at L-4 two pages ago. There was a pretty quick upturn. Seemed silent to me.

Ignores completly the context. A player who is at L-2, claims, gets CC, gets voted to L-2 again is not that remarkable.

Than about Kiana

Which brings me to another point - I've looked at her other games, as I noted, and they don't even look comparable to this one. Which concerns me the most here.

A nice soft attack on Kiana between the defence. So he can point it out, that he totally wasn't her buddy.

Of my try to get people to at last agree that one of Kiana or Cedric have to be scum.

Which is not confirmed because they're not flipped.

Look another dancing around at the two vigs. Completly ignoring the fact that THE MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL. I have not checked if that was after me pointing out that that was after me pointing out, this would have been a premire on mafiascum, or before.
He, Gamma and Kiana were the only ones considering it. And Gamma did at last make it clear, yepp doesn't make sense.

(In his next post he points out the "Why would scum claim vig" from Wh4t makes no sense, after his last post, that implie both Kiana and Cedric are town.)

i mean, that first line alone is genius

which is why i think this is a scumflip but not necessary still

im more confused why gamma, who loves meta, is still not on board with kiana scum after reading meta but its nothing i can and want to focus on

pre-edit: lynching between the vigs is still stupid and useless

About the first line I am not sure what he is refering to, and who. Could be wh4t or Kiana.
His attack on Gamma is hillarous, when he wasn't on board with Kianascum himself.
Yes and the last line is poor genius.

After beeing called out, about beeing unhelpful in this game by wh4t.

Yeah, I'm unhelpful because you guys have no clue what the fuck NAR is.

This has never made sense to me.

In the next post he pretty much makes it clear that he doesn't want to explain himself, and well mentally I gave up on ever making sense of him after that post.

Seriously? What a dumb question to ask.

My lynchpool now is: Bu, Wh4T, Kaito

I'm replacing Kaito with Arch. Early posting was bad but lately posting has improved immensely.

Is that the return of at last some sense of Hiraki. Readers decide. Completly ignoring the Kiana-Cedricisue btw.
(Snipping the vote)

Wh4T's posting has become worse but scummy worse. It's been much more focused on people who are attacking him (and even attacking them back) rather than just ignoring them or responding to their arguments.

An atack on Wh4t, have nothing against it.

What kind of game does someone play that has people who they think are town on the lynch side?

About me asking who people would lynch from a certain pool. Note I didn't even ask him.
That was the point btw, were I thought Maki and Bu made more sense as scumpartner of Kiana because Hiraki was too bad.

Maki, my new found friend, how do you feel about StefanB's last two pages?

Okay the Stefan is scum doesn't come quite out of the blue.

Next about the vigs:

You've still given me no convincing reason that they won't just shoot each other.

And after I pointed out, that scum could mess it up:

Man, what a bad worst case scenario...

Now the question is is Hiaki that lazy to think, or is he trying to give Kiana an out, and get us in the same situation day 2?

Now after Koichi asked about why Gamma believed Kiana was town, not using gut or tone as argument for it:

That's like saying please tell me why X is scum but you can't use meta.

Just because you don't like the reasoning won't make Gamma change his mind. This argument is fruitless as much as Kiana and Cedrick shooting each other.

Good answer to give me a logic reason to believe Kiana is town.
Nice defend, also pushing the the 2 vigs shoot each other, what was Kianas goal.

That were his post day 1.
TDR he spend most of the time, defending Kiana while nominal beeing neutral.
I quoted his whole ISO make yourself a picture. (I will ignore P-Edit before posting this)
The only reason I am not on Hiraki at the moment is the JK.
I am more and more tempted to be their.

[StefanB]

Anoyed is pretty much a staate that I share.
Only to put that in perspective I started the day with "Hiraki is less liekly scum."
I voted you for your claim.
And then I got could feet, in getting your lynch through, because I knew that you have a less likly chance to be scum.
The last think is somethink I am deeply regretting.
Even if you are town, I wouldn't mind your dead.

Sorry about the misquote.

This is the only think I am sorry for, btw.

Hiraki wrote:

Stefan - the worst part of the above is that you never found one instance where I called Kiana town.

Should I have found one? Do you think that you will find that.

I unvoted her after the vig claims because I said that they could shoot each other. If you even once brought up that she was actually a BP and that puts me on suspicion, I would give you credit because that's 100% true. If I was scum, that would in fact be a tactic that I would use. However, instead of doing that, you've resorted to saying that I've "soft defended" Kiana. In that case, you're scumreading Maki too? Or are you on her side there that she always SR Kiana?

So you exspect my to find somethink more blunt, then I found. You mean I give you to much credit? As scum you would be less subtil?
The fact that scum could mess up the vig was brought up, btw. Koichi was the one who talked about BP, but it was brought up a few times.

On Maki, were was my vote at the beginning of the day? Potentiel buddy is there, there are other thinks that speak for her, but she could be scum, yes.
The most damaging point about Maki is that she wanted rather to no-kill than lynch in the vigs.

Hiraki wrote:

2) I didn't give Kiana an out. She was going to be shot by Cedrick that night. Again - you didn't even talk about how that plan wouldn't work.

Two false statments. 2 townvigs was an out for Kiana, that was brought up by you, Kiana happily run with it.

Second false: I did talk what could mess with the plan.
from me:

Bu and everyone else in the reasonable we shouldn't lynch a vigcamp(I call it the anti-camp in this post):

It is more thinking about the worst case scenario. Scum can mess with townpowerroles is not a too outrages posibility. JK,RB or doctor are just the roles everyone has in their mind, because they are clasic. (There are 2 other roles that are explicite normal and could mess the plan of the anticamp up, one of them only if the false vig has them)
One or more of this roles being in the game and the danger that they are in scumhands is posible
I don't want to state it here, but everyone should be able to think about reall worst case scenario.

What if day 2 starts and none of the vigclaims are dead...

That is clearly thinking about what could go wrong.

Hold on - you're telling me that you can SCUMTELL me for thinking that there's 2 Vigs but you're OK because you were right and the scum had a special ability that wouldn't let this whole plan happen? Which one is the farther asspull? Where is your Maki SR?

Yours and yours helps defend scum.
You are seriously calling the posibility that there is one of several roles in the setup, all of them common, that could be in scumhands (what happened a lot of times in the past) the same as speculating that the game has somethink that has not done before in the past? btw, my 5 roles didn't even include BP.
Preparing for a likly scenario, normal.

My point is I wanted to lynch scum, which having a role in my hands that could help my reduce the damage if we screwed up.
I was afraid, scum could skrew with our nightactions, which is somethink that is somethink that can happen.
Maki btw is not begging me to lynch here.

[StefanB]

VOTE: Hiraki
this has been coming.
Lynch obtimal, because of the JK no, but I don't care at the moment.
I am happy when Hiraki is dead.

To your Info I don't think I can get Maki lynched at the moment. Despite her reaction to the vigs yesterday, there are some points that she could be town.

[StefanB]

Okay for the tenth time.
I found you scummy yesterday.
I JK you.
Didn't vote you at first because that makes you less likly to be scum.
I voted to get you to claim, why is what I have stated a lot today.
I hoped you would state somethink that was clearly wrong so I could catch you.
That was not so clearly stated as it should have this time.

I never said somethink else, but the question was there, why I found you scummy to begin with and this is there.

Your theory, I voted you for OMGOS ignores a lot of thinks what happened today, including the fact that I haven't shredered your post, which would have been very easy btw.

About the defense of Kiana: My theory was that you were at last trying to hide what you wanted, to have an out, if Kiana flipps scum. No I didn't exspect a scumbuddy to post in bold letters KIANA IS TOWN, but be more subtil.

I am a 2-Shot Town self-BP. Why on EARTH would I think that they would have a BP on the scumside?

BP is one of 6 roles that could have messed that up. I claim not that you should have gotten that scum has a BP, but that your plan was Kianas plan.

I don't have time for more at the moment.

[StefanB]

My good intention for today, start to ignore Hiraki, but one last mention.
I showed more than one point in your Iso that did help Kiana.
I never stated you thought she was town.
I proposed that if you were her scumbuddy your actions yesterday were there to help while at the same time trying to give you an out.

Your defense: You never called her town.

Unaswered question: Would if you search for a scumbuddy, really exspect to find that.
BTW: Since Beefster was if I remember the only one who called Kiana openly a townread, at last one scumbuddy didn't.

Last post to that topic, if nothing really interesting comes.