Mini 2006: Scummer in this game UPick GAME OVER

[mastina]

Hi Alisae. I picked you as my role, yeah.

Incidentally, I couldn't choose between Alisae and Pine so I chose both! (By submitting the hydra.)

[mastina]

we picked eddie cane. we are a LOUD FLIPLESS Eddie Cane. not gonna fullclaim our ability, but when we die we flip as EDDIE CANE not town nor scum.

Good fucking god I joked to Cheet upon seeing my ability that this was an Alisae game but with THIS claim now my comment's no longer a joke; this is legit, genuinely, an Alisae game.

Also.

Hi Alisae. I picked you as my role, yeah.

ego

VOTE: Nicorobin

Town.

VOTE: wisdom

Town?

hmm....

Vote:Momrangal

I refuse to read on the grounds it might infuriate she.

Hi Alisae. I picked you as my role, yeah.

How dare you. I am a tree.

Lmao^
Why is no one voting?
VOTE: NicoRobin for being a dirty tree hugger.
Pedit oh sniped...

Scum?

VOTE: mastina

Scum.

VOTE: Wisdom.

[mastina]

I should probably claim that ability in fact.
I am a compulsive D1 permanent-track/watch-immune-inventor.

As in.

I am required to make one person (and sadly, it does specify "ANOTHER player" so no self-targeting to make sure it lands on town) in the game, by the end of D1, be track/watch immune. If I don't submit anyone, it's randomized. I'll let you know who I am selecting; it'll be among my largest townreads for obvious reasons.

[mastina]

mastina, what're your thoughts on Nico? I'm not sure how I feel yet, and frankly yours is the read I'd trust the most.

Hard, HARD town.

I have a weird kinship to Mastina this game and I don't like her being voted before even posting

Is there deja vu this game?

[mastina]

Mastina, for example, will obviously have some sort of wallposting-related power.

Actually, I'm fairly certain that a power based off of me would be a role classified as somewhere between Informative/Support: mason(izer), neighbor(izer), messenger, fruit vendor, or friendly neighbor.

That said, whoever was issued my role is probably scum, so it may cut both ways.

Well I can't speak for PINE, as in, you by YOURSELF, but I CAN say that I did in fact receive YOUR HYDRA as my role PM. And given that YOUR HYDRA is a combination of fucking Pine and our current Don Corelone, I can pretty safely say that role isn't tied to a scum alignment in of itself.

Doesn't stop it from being a fucking anti-town role though because REALLY. I AM FORCED TO MAKE A FUCKING PLAYER BE A FUCKING NINJA. This is literally my fucking role from Alisae's large except ninja instead of strongman and compulsive 1x instead of reflexive.

(I guess it's karma tho because Alisae is part of your hydra so it makes sense I get an Alisaesque role. )

[mastina]

Why are you claiming now Mastina?

Uh. Because

thats an even more anti town role than mine!

?

Legit there's zero benefit from hiding this. None. Absolutely zero. It needs to be outed promptly and immediately.

mastina, sudowoodo vote please

Tempting, but I prefer my Wisdom vote. Might join later tho.

[mastina]

MOMOMEN (I'd give them the ninja, but I'm not sure it'd be wise to combine their existing negative utility with another)
NicoRobin
Momrangal
MariaR
Lovebird
Kokichi Oma
RedFlavor
beeboy
Lady Lambdadelta
Sudowoodo
CheekyTeeky
Wisdom

Readslist right now.
for some degree of clarity, LLD/beeboy/RedFlavor's positions are somewhat interchangeable since all are about the same level of 'null', but when forcing one to be higher than the other, this is the order I most felt was right, so it's what I went with.

[mastina]

I think Mastina always scum reads me as scum, but that's a sample of one game so *shrug*

I do indeed always scumread you when you're scum!

And yes it is a sample size of one pretty sure, but this game will make two!

[mastina]

Why are Maria and Mom town?

Because reasons, obv.

ask the mod how your role would interact with a loud modifier; if the person you gave it to was loud.

The role PM specifies that it's watch-immunity and track-immunity. Not that it's a ninja. This technically SHOULD mean the person I give it to could even be followed, voyeured, detected, or other such variations. Given that, I imagine that the role SHOULDN'T impact the Loud modifier at all; Loud is not a track/watch action.

[mastina]

Also I am a town godfather.

Hello mastina, nice to meet you.

[mastina]

Also Pine has a deathwish apparently

So do you.

[mastina]

Expand if you can. Partly because I want to fine tune how to read Maria.

With respect, I prefer not to. Not because I can't, this is actually one of the reads I CAN do fairly reasonably reliably well. But because I feel it best to not.

Agreed PROBABLY, please confirm though.

Will check after this post!

[mastina]

You know this game's gonna be hell when literally the only three people talking are your only three scumspects.

[mastina]

(Also LLD I guess, but she's not someone I have any real ability to read. If I had to wager it'd be town, but I would very much not place that wager. And I suppose Eddie's posted some, too, but really the last few pages have been almost entirely Wisdom, Cheeky, and Alisae, so.)

[mastina]

but youre still not talking to me

Should I be?

Because there's literally no fucking reason you should be hard-buddying me as town here. None whatsoever.

We've never had any kind of interaction that would justify that attitude and there's not a player in the game you could be which would warrant that approach.

Also you're not even remotely skeeved by your role apparently being similar to mine which is really fucking off, so.

[mastina]

Got an answer from the mod: it does not affect the loud modifier; it is ONLY for watches/tracks.

Like ask Mastina for her flavour.

Apparently you haven't been reading my posts because I already openly claimed I'm the Pine/Alisae hydra. Multiple times. The flavor for my ability is Twin Trap Mafia, more specifically, the entry of that game, KAIN TEPES.

First of all that is the most made up role I've ever seen

Well you'd be right to be suspicious of that being all there is to my role because it isn't, but the OTHER STUFF I had and still have no reason to claim, obv. I claimed what I did because

Third there's no effing reason for mastina to claim there.

This couldn't be more wrong.

I am a fucking COMPULSIVE D1 PERMANENT-NINJA-INVENTOR.

Pray tell.
How the fucking HELL.
Is that something you leave unclaimed as town?

Bad posting opportunistic vote
VOTE: Cheeky

While I echo the sentiment, opportunism implies there's an opportunity this game; none exists. Because.

Cheeky
I have a n0 inno on mastina
fuck off please

Normally, when a player makes this claim.
It's a joke.

But I can confirm.

I am confirmed town to Sudowoodo.
Vice-versa is not the case, but I know for a FACT that Sudowoodo knows for a fact that I am town. Kinda ticks me off to be honest.

Chose to talk a lot more about the claim stuff over reads, which she ignored.

You apparently haven't been paying attention to my posts because I've been making plenty of reads. Try saying this after you've read my iso again.

And yes, there was duck tales, which I think was the only game we were both town, in which we worked well and Id like to see that again

Funny, that's not how I remember things going.

[mastina]

Well they're a god father then.

Yeah about that.

Also I am a town godfather.

That role's taken.

Not a godfather.

[mastina]

These wagons all suck
VOTE: redflavor

wis you're voting low hanging fruit

Yeah.
Which alignment has a greater incentive to do that?

[mastina]

Scum claim.

Oh I can claim scum all I like, the simple fact is I'm never getting lynched and anyone who shoots me will get lynched for shooting me because:

Cheeky
I have a n0 inno on mastina
fuck off please

Normally, when a player makes this claim.
It's a joke.

But I can confirm.

I am confirmed town to Sudowoodo.
Vice-versa is not the case, but I know for a FACT that Sudowoodo knows for a fact that I am town.

This is, 100%, serious.

I am, 100%, confirmed town to Sudowoodo.
Sudowoodo is not confirmed town to ME, but

I

am conftown to THEM. Dead serious about this.
So your options are that this is a bastard game in spite of this,

Is it possible your game has any of the following bastard roles or mechanics?

cults, mid-game alignment changes, moderator lies that cannot be reasonably anticipated (for example, Godfather, Tailor, Miller, Ninja, and mechanics like that are generally fine. Telling someone they are a reflexive doctor when they're actually a PGO is not), secret win conditions, un-divulged non-randomness in player role/alignment generation, direct moderator influence during the game

Nope.

...That me and Sudowoodo are both scum...
...Or that I am town and Sudowoodo's alignment is unknown.

There is no world where I am scum and Sudowoodo is town because it is literally, fundamentally, 100% impossible.
I am conftown to them, and this is not a bastard game. The nature of this conftown is not something which can be disputed.

Soyeah.

[mastina]

Mastina did you understand my first 2 joke posts

Not until just now when you made this post causing me to remember that, but yes, I do now.

[mastina]

When Sud flips scum I expect mastina to be next in line.

Not gonna happen.

I mean, yes, I think Sudowoodo is in fact scum.

But I'm not going to take the fall after they flip scum.

I'm incredibly unhappy that THEY are the ones who know I am conftown, because I think they're scum and obviously scum knowing I'm conftown is less-than-optimal.

Yet the fact is I am conftown REGARDLESS of Sudowoodo. Them flipping scum won't change that I'm conftown.

I was PLANNING to not actually be blatant about this, but you know what they say about the best-laid plans.

So deal with it.

[mastina]

mastina seriously haven't you learned like
anything
from when we played together?

I've learned to ignore your ranting and to continue focusing on play rather than meta.
Play says scum, so.

[mastina]

Fine I'm fucking counterclaiming Mastina and Wisdom. I am beeboy. I have inventions. Now shut up and lynch Mastina.

Yeah you won't get that to go through for you.

The name of my ability isn't inventor.

It's distributor.

Compulsive watch/track-immune D1 distributor.

Broken down. Compulsive-->I must use it and if I don't submit something, it's randomized.
D1-->This is done for D1 only.
Distributor-->Inventor.
Watch/Track-immune-->basically turning a player into essentially permanently a ninja.

I don't have a choice. It's a day action which will always happen no matter what. Nothing can stop it.

[mastina]

Oh.
I forgot a modifier.
Seems kinda pointless to put in this modifier because really why the fuck would you try to target multiple people and why the fuck would you try to use it on a different day especially when it's marked as D1, but my ability DOES specify it's 1-shot. So the full title is 1-shot Compulsive Track/Watch-Immune D1 Distributor.

[mastina]

Actually.

Yaknow what.

Surprise!

VOTE: MariaR.

I actually think Maria

is

in her scum meta. I thought she was in her town meta back when she entered the game but the more she posts the more it looks like it's her scum meta.

[mastina]

Fuck this means my vote's off of Wisdom.

Uh.

Let it be known that Wisdom's still a strong scumread of mine, just that I trust my instincts here on Maria slightly more.

Also, this doesn't bump Sudowoodo out of the scum list nor does it bump CheekyTeeky out, it just means that I have one too many scumreads. I feel like in those four names you have ~2 scum. Zero chance of none, slim chance of one, slight chance of three, but the number which feels most correct is two. The best stab-at-the-dark combo being Maria-Wisdom.

Though that having been said.

It's crossed my mind that Sudowoodo coulda shared I was conftown to the scumteam; I've alternatively thought that made them scum with Cheeky and thought that made them scum with Wisdom. (Cheeky requires a bit of moonlogic so not sure I can explain that pairing, but the Wisdom one should be obvious enough; Wisdom had absolutely zero reason to be townreading me as strongly as he was and yet he seemed to know I was conftown just as strongly as Sudowoodo did in spite of him as far as I know NOT having access to the source of information Sudowoodo has.)

[mastina]

I am still worried about who gave me a letter to send out but I have a hunch that

everyone

got a letter they could send out.

Can confirm that I too was given a letter. I thought I knew the source but I'm not quite sure anymore, especially if everyone has one.

[mastina]

Wisdom had absolutely zero reason to be townreading me as strongly as he was and yet he seemed to know I was conftown just as strongly as Sudowoodo did in spite of him as far as I know NOT having access to the source of information Sudowoodo has.

I nowhere stated i was townreading you though

Uh-huh.

what
Why other naked votes are town and mine is scum

Mastina's role is very similar to mine

mastina who should I vote

VOTE: mastina

Why? Do you not believe her claim or think it comes from scum?

mastina I want to vote someone not you
Who should it be?

but youre still not talking to me

I very much doubt youre making that claim as scum, even if its similar to mine
And yes, there was duck tales, which I think was the only game we were both town, in which we worked well and Id like to see that again

Youre even better than me in calling scumteams d1

But why does mastina claim that as scum instead of using it on a buddy

I also think scum-mastina probably buddies me instead of going after me

These are

totally

the posts of someone with no townread on me.

[mastina]

Also, point of irony:

I also think scum-mastina probably buddies me instead of going after me

Guess what I think your main sin this game is, Wisdom?

That's right.

It's buddying me instead of going after me.

You were at my throat for a good 50-75% of your time alive in Duck Tales.

I call bullshit on the idea that you learned from that experience and remembered it literally four fucking years later. (And yes, Duck Tales was that long ago.)

[mastina]

(Okay so closer to three and a half given it was November of 2014 butstill.)

[mastina]

FUCK I WANNA GO BACK TO VOTING WISDOM
BUT I DON'T WANT TO TAKE MY VOTE OFF OF MARIA

I normally loathe the thought of being a double-voter but DAMN would I appreciate that capacity right now.

[mastina]

What i remember from duck tales is that we worked together and lynched scum

Yeah and I literally pulled up the game and read a large part of D1 and that simply wasn't the case. Thus my "funny that's not how I remember it" comment.

We did lynch scum, that is true enough.

But it certainly wasn't what I'd call "together".

[mastina]

Ironically, said scum was Pine and if he has any memory of that game he'd be able to confirm how the Wisdom of that game is nothing like the Wisdom of this game.

If anything, *I* am acting like Wisdom did that game.

[mastina]

Mastina, what was your read on me (or what were you thinking about my second post) before I explained my second post?

"Fuckit I have enough scumreads already, he can be town because I'm not seeing anything to make me feel otherwise". So nulltown essentially.

Thinking more strongly town now though not quite sure. I do have scum

somewhere

in my more "town list", because again while it's possible 3/4 of CheekyTeeky/Sudowoodo/Wisdom/Maria are scum it's not really probable so that means there's at least one scum outside of them and you COULD be it...

...But I honestly just don't think so. Any doubts about your townness stem from a combination of paranoia and not feeling comfortable calling you someone I am intimately familiar with to the extent of being able to reliably read.

So current read would be "town with slight reservations, but still town".

[mastina]

mastina I want to vote someone not you
Who should it be?
Sudowoodo

YOU ARE FUCKING BAD AT THIS GAME READ THE GAME AND VOTE CLAIRE

Actually Eddie Cane is probably one of the best two overall scumhunters in this entire playerlist. Certainly top-three at the very least. (The other two would be Wisdom although I admit it's possible he's atrophied and LLD when she gets "in the zone".)

I actually trust his opinion quite a lot. Not absolutely, but enough where I certainly am listening quite intently to what he is saying.

[mastina]

Mastina can't read me so I don't know where she got that idea
there's never been a game where mastina's been town and I've been scum besides 1 game where she had me as lock town

False. We've shared several games and I've had correct reads on you in most of them.

The one time I was scum (everyone was) she even said post game she thought I was town.

Yeah and that was my first game with you. I then learned from it and adjusted my reads on all subsequent games.

I'm not gonna say I have perfect read accuracy on you.

But I have far >random ability to know your alignment.

[mastina]

nvm im informed sudowoodo claimed cop lol
VOTE: MariaR

VERY FUCKING BAD REASON TO WRITE THEM OFF AS TOWN.
I know the EXACT nature of their innocent on me.

And I am telling you it is NOT something which makes them town in any way shape nor form.

If you townread them off of other merits, by all rights do so.
But that is the last fucking thing you should townread them off of. Please trust me on this, I am speaking on fucking role-based merits here. The nature of Sudowoodo's confirmation of my alignment makes ME town but does NOTHING about Sudowoodo's alignment.

[mastina]

Got an answer from the mod: it does not affect the loud modifier; it is ONLY for watches/tracks.

Any objections to mastin targeting me today/night? I am loud, so I am still effectively "tracked", and we want scum to kill me so I wasn't going to get watched anyways.

This is currently submitted as of right now btw. I can change it any time before the end of day if you raise an argument to the contrary.

[mastina]

mastina do you see maria-ali interactions as possible theatre?

Probably not, no, but I think that there's like a 98% chance one of them is scum and not the other.

So on a Maria townflip I'd lynch Sudowoodo; on a Sudowoodo townflip I'd lynch Maria.

It's possible (albeit very highly improbable) they're both town, yes, that's the other 2%, but I do in fact consider it absolutely impossible for them to be scumbuddies right now.

This is in no way shape nor form scum theater.

[mastina]

hi fam

vote claire!

Did you select to have an inno on Mastina, or did Cheet? Can you say how its worded (paraphrased)? Like, "Mastina is aligned with the town"?

Respectably, this is information better NOT to share right now.

[mastina]

okay. Who do you lynch on a maria scumflip (other than me)?
@mastina

Well it'd be you, but since you specified other than you, I'd TRY CheekyTeeky before anything else. I wouldn't be confident in that, but it'd be a fine start for starting to POE the game and work through the game with the proper interactions and whatnot.

[mastina]

Right, so there's a mushroom cloud of new posts (THREADSPLOSION), but quickly:
I am doing ten different things so it might be a while before I post content (I'll get to you as soon as I can, am really juggling a lot at the moment), but the mod told me I was targeted by Eddie Cane, so I can confirm that Momomen are indeed Loud.

[mastina]

So looking at the first page, I see people are claiming who they are. I got MariaR, not sure if that's important or not yet. I'll keep reading

Hey so like.

Remember how I said there was one scum outside of CheekyTeeky/Wisdom/Maria/Sudowoodo?

Found him.

VOTE: Kokichi Oma.

Everyone outside that group is varying shades of town.

[mastina]

...That having been said.
VOTE: MariaR.

My vote's still better here.

I voted Kokichi for emphasis. STRONG emphasis. Because it needs to be said.
Kokichi Oma is, 100%, definitively, scum,

regardless of those four

.

CheekyTeeky/Wisdom/Maria/Sudowoodo has two scum in it, precisely. No more, no less.
But outside of that group.
Dead serious.

Kokichi is guaranteed scum.

[mastina]

{LLD, Claire, Kokichi} is the solve btw.

Fuck you so hard you arrogant ass you're going to take credit for my idea aren't you all the while shouting that *I* am stealing *your* credit.

Kokichi is MINE, dammit.
MINE.

(Maria's yours, yes. But DAMMIT KOKICHI IS MY FUCKING READ YOU DON'T GET TO CLAIM HIM FIRST.)

[mastina]

(At least I have the

correct

one in Wisdom/LLD as scum tho.)

[mastina]

LOL clearly you have no experience with scum mastina.

As a point of fact on this account he does not. He has seen me plenty of times as town describe it tho.

And you are quite correct he shouldn't be townreading me.

its like her literal purpose in mafia games with me is to make my life harder.

Would you believe me if I told you that you're not actually wrong and that I've started to weakly townread you but deliberately hid this fact and kept you in the scum list just for the lulz?

[mastina]

Alisae, I think you've been on a rude streak lately. I think you need to reevaluate yourself.

While this isn't wrong, it's still quite scum.

[mastina]

I'll move my vote once everyone admits mastina's claim is ridiculous.

Oh it's ridiculous alright. Still doesn't make it any less true. My role is exactly what I said it is--that's not

all

there is to my role, but everything I have said about my role is true.

OH GET OVER IT THERE CAN BE MULTIPLE INVENTIONS IN A GAME, TRUST ME I AM A GOOD MOD ITS DEFINITELY IN KEELY'S RANGE NOW PLEASE SHUT UP ABOUT THE FUCKING CLAIMS.

Go fuck yourself.

Yeah you can go eat those words when you see the mod notes. (I'm not actually sure my ability will flip with me. I've been hoping it will, but I don't know it will, so it might have to wait for postgame to be revealed rather than when I am nightkilled.)

Alternatively, you can refer to my scum meta and try to track down so much as a single instance of me lying about my role as scum. (There's precisely one.)

Why the fuck is Lovebird town, Sudo?

Well aside from the significant chance of Lovebird being an alt of a very specific player (a player known for shitty scumplay and not-so-shitty townplay among other traits), there's how even if Lovebird is not that player that their thoughts come from a perspective incredibly hard to fake as scum, more or less. I could go into more detail but can't be assed to bother with it when in the middle of a catchup so ask me again later if it's

that

important to you.

[mastina]

Ok that's a weird thing to deliver to townies.
UNVOTE:

Yes but useful to deliver to scum which is why I fucking outed my ability to make sure it was known who I was giving to and thus holding that player as well as myself to a certain degree of accountability as it were.

Yaknow.

The fucking thing I told you about multiple times but you ignored for whatever reason.

[mastina]

I honestly just expect more aggresion from you and it bugs me? Surely there is a reason for this.

Precisely my point.

Wisdom this game is altogether timid. He is not being forceful. He is not being a strong pusher. He's being passive. Know his title, "Of the One"? Where he more or less trusts his own instincts? He's not even following that; he's tried outsourcing. Shitty explanation, but you get what I mean. He's being lazy, lax. Just. Everything he's not when he's town.

[mastina]

Nico do you know that mastina is voting Maria?

Yes, bu she also said she wishes she voted you as well, so I'll be her proxy and keep my vote on you.

<3
Still support that btw.
Could use a second proxy tho on Kokichi so that all three of my scumreads are voted.

[mastina]

And there you have it. The reason I scumread Wisdom is because he voted her in the beginning. It's not much, but it is enough for me on D1.

This is valid reasoning, btw...but not for the reason she thinks.

It's not scum because of not recognizing town or something to that effect.

It's actually the opposite.

It's scum because voting me like that was knowing I am town, and believing the vote on me would be an effective method to pocket me, more or less.

[mastina]

Nico it was just RVS

Yes indeed, but there's scum RVS and town RVS; yours was the former!

how can I possibly have scum motivation for that vote

What, pray tell, makes the RVS immune to alignment-indicative content?

If your answer isn't some variation on "nothing", you're a fucking liar.

So let's just assume it's "nothing".

Okay then.

So RVS content isn't immune to being alignment-indicative. Let's run with that.
So that means it can be alignment-indicative.
Specifically because actions therein are able to be influenced by motivation. Scum have an agenda; town may or may not have an agenda but if they do have one it is an entirely different one from what they'd have if they were scum.

Alright, now that we've established that.

More or less.

The scum agenda is then.

And there you have it. The reason I scumread Wisdom is because he voted her in the beginning. It's not much, but it is enough for me on D1.

This is valid reasoning, btw...but not for the reason she thinks.

It's not scum because of not recognizing town or something to that effect.

It's actually the opposite.

It's scum because voting me like that was knowing I am town, and believing the vote on me would be an effective method to pocket me, more or less.

This!

More or less, anyway.

[mastina]

/done talking to Nico
Does anyone know why Momrangal also votes me for voting mastina

Because your vote on me was literally transparently a scum vote?

[mastina]

I'm also mastina
Apparently there are repeats

Of course there are, I'm one of the most complex interesting characters on mafiascum so there's more material to work with on me than anyone else.

(Also more games, 'cause like. I play in a ton, so.)

[mastina]

/done talking to Nico
Does anyone know why Momrangal also votes me for voting mastina

Of course you are, you've gotta continue your ego trip, after all.

Wis has actually been fairly reasonable! It’s actually kind of disturbing

Yeah!
Exactly.

So why the fuck do you consider him the town in Wisdom/LLD?

Especially since if this is LLD's scumgame, it has atrophied? (I'd expect if LLD were scum here for her to have...hmm. What's the word? Presence? Influence? Significance? Something like that. Impact of some sort, yaknow. I mean, yeah. I expect her to have that as town, too. But as town there are more like specific triggers for it, whereas when scum the only time I'd think it wouldn't be there is if specific things triggered her to not have it, if that makes sense.)

[mastina]

Explain Kokichi and Lovebird

Explain everything, actually, Momrangal.

[mastina]

NicoRobin is stupidly obvious town btw.

I mean.

Duh.

I don't think we should discuss the legitimacy of a mason claim :/

Oh you absolutely should if it's certain players since I've seen two in particular heavily 'crumbing it and I've been hoping they'd explicitly claim it because if they did then we'd have two free scum on D1 as I'd be positive they were lying out of their asses.

[mastina]

Mastina said she knows you have an inno on her

And I can confirm they do.

Of one specific type.

I never specified it was a cop inno.

[mastina]

I think its fairly obvious who the 2nd pair are, and I really hate the fact that I'm doing things this way.

Oh you mean Wisdom and Maria?

Yeah guess one of the reasons I've been calling those two scum?

[mastina]

Hmm I guess I should look at wisdom again.

Yeah because Maria's vote there was pretty transparently a bus, so.

[mastina]

though it is strange that mastina was claiming she knew about you having a supposed inno

Because I did know and it is an inno.

I didn't specify anything further, nor do I intend to.

[mastina]

I want Mastina to weigh in on this.

I like my protein.

[mastina]

I need a Mastina in my life. Like asap

You know I work most days now, right? I get home at an average time of like 8 PM PST when you factor in the days I get home much later, much earlier, and precisely at, that time. 8 PM PST is midnight in the timezone most players are in.

Frankly the only reason I'm posting right now is that dance was cancelled for tonight; if it weren't, I wouldn't be home for another two hours. (Okay, so I got home at like 4:30, but I would have spent the time between 4:30 and me leaving at 6 preparing to leave and maybe doing some finishing touches on Lynch the Wolves which by the way still needs a reviewer. But I certainly wouldn't be posting here without that.)

[mastina]

Like she believed it and worked it into her claim

Sorry, but no.

I knew the exact nature of the innocent on me and I am still conftown.

The proof is in my posts.

[mastina]

Lovebird is literally obvious town????

Given that my guess on who they are just went from "stab in the dark" to "okay the only way that's not them is if it's someone deliberately trying to pretend to be them".

I can confirm this.

Lovebird is town.

[mastina]

Mastina what's your read on Yume?

mastina, what're your thoughts on Nico? I'm not sure how I feel yet, and frankly yours is the read I'd trust the most.

Hard, HARD town.

As if there were any reason for this to change.

[mastina]

Btw, Eddie. I know that you are pretty sure that Nico's town, but you're probably looking for something more. I believe if you look here:

Except that she does. Have you read her wiki at all? It clearly says in there she puts as much stock in early game interactions as she does for those in later game

...You should find what you're looking for. At least, I think. (Honestly not too sure how, just from my understanding this is what you're after.)

[mastina]

okay and why is she still saying she knows you have an inno on her

Because they do have an innocent on me and it is something I have known about from the moment they got it.

[mastina]

I misunderstand something.

It would be this.

However, my respect for mastina as a player is such that I assume she doesn't do stuff without a reason, which will likely become clear in time.

It is also this.

[mastina]

If Mastina and Nico are neighbors would Nico really be so naive to send that masonry message to alpine?

Not naive. It'd be genius. Sending a message containing false info in the form of a half-truth to a slot I thought at the time to be scum would be

brilliant

. To the point where if she came up with it on her own, I'd be proud; it's the kind of stunt *I* would pull.

That's not the case though. Nico and I are not neighbors.

after mastina does a thing, we should just hammer someone. probably Maria, wisdom, or kokichi. this is the point where extending the day isnt gonna help anything. we have enough interactions to sort.

I already did the thing and yes it is precisely those three.

[mastina]

wisdom maria kikuchi
its solved goodbye folks

Yeah, by me, ya plagiarist.

[mastina]

Me being different does not mean not town

Sure, in of itself, but when you pair it with the actions you are doing along with what direction you're taking the game in (away from the right one), it makes a pretty damn good case!

[mastina]

my friend offered to make me meatloaf, pasta, cheese and crackers, steak, watermelon, or sushi. which should i take? i know sushi is the obvious answer but last time he made sushi the rice ended up red

Well, given this:

Except that she does. Have you read her wiki at all? It clearly says in there she puts as much stock in early game interactions as she does for those in later game

You should have your meal prepared already.

[mastina]

1511 shows me yume is reading so little it makes me legitimately angry

I mean, yes, I recognize it can be a little bit strenuous to work with her at times but you can work with her. It just requires patience, time, and practice. Also positive reinforcement of "you know, this part is good" even if you do mention the other parts aren't, rather than "all of this sucks" which isn't helpful for her.

Shit I could ask Mastina about her cheeky read before posting this. Mastina, what is it anyways?

In POE lynchpool, but not primary focus within. (That'd be Kokichi/Wisdom/Maria.)

[mastina]

So they are lying then?

Nope! Just:

I misunderstand something.

It would be this.

However, my respect for mastina as a player is such that I assume she doesn't do stuff without a reason, which will likely become clear in time.

It is also this.

This.

Mastina, you sticking around?

More or less, yes.

[mastina]

Mastina will you announce when you've given your inventions to someone?

Apparently you haven't been reading my posts.
My invention is handed out at the end of day. The current target is Momomen. I've said both of these already.

Mastina, I need help refining my reads but I also want to put Maria and koki to the side for now. Two masons does seem kinda strong but assuming things don't go wrong, it'll be apparent by d3 if there is only one and which of the two is false

Kokichi and Maria aren't masons. Guarantee you that. I don't care if you think it's possible. Sure yes it's possible. It's just not actually the case.

Talk to me a little more about wisdom. I made points about him earlier

Everything you've said about Wisdom has just made me go "meh".

[mastina]

You continue treating me like you have a guilty on me when I have done nothing to warrant it

You know, there's an old EpicMafia saying which is usually laughed at for being ridiculous, but fuckit it needs to be said:

WHY ME = FRY ME.

[mastina]

i thought this was pretty reasonable by wisdom

Not particularly, actually.

Wisdom is displaying a particular attitude which follows the mindset of a scum player.

Care to guess what I am

actually

talking about? (The why me fry me was just my tongue-in-cheek way of joking about it.)

[mastina]

Wisdom is displaying a particular attitude which follows the mindset of a scum player.

What attitude? Is this about me not playing "usual town-Wisdom" again?

Nooooooooot even remotely close, though I must say I quite enjoy this response given how scum-indicative it is.

yeah, he's pretty defensive about people he's scumreading which is always a bad look.

That's a pretty good guess, and solid valid analysis, but no, not my point.

[mastina]

EXPLAIN IN WHICH UNIVERSE IS SCUMREADING A MASON A TOWNY MOVE.

In the universe where we don't know you are masons and youre not a trustworthy player

Yeah the thing is.

When I am a town neighbor and not a mason, I am--relatively speaking--fairly quick to claim said "mason". I typically try not to claim it immediately, obviously, but the mason gambit doesn't do any good if you never actually claim the masonry.

That's not this game.

This game I have been holding back from being explicit. Yes I've been softing, but I've tried to prevent outright confirming it. I am, in fact, a mason with Nico Robin. We have daychat, even. Nico sent the message to Sudowoodo before consulting with me, which is why I was miffed that of all people, SUDOWOODO was the one to know.

I also never fakeclaim as scum.

In spite of times I have gotten close to it, never once have I done the mason gambit as scum, either.

Granted I don't think I've ever actually been a scum neighbor except for one time as a replacement in a game I was inheriting the legacy of a scum player (Titus) and just finishing her job. But that's beside the point.

Yume doesn't fake in this way.
I don't fake in this way.

There are times where telling a lie is appropriate.
This isn't one of them.

We are, 100%, masons. It's in our role PM title. There's more to our roles than being masons. For instance, my ability to compulsively hand out the track/watch-immune invention on D1. (That's not all there is to my role. But I see no reason to claim the particulars.) But in the nice blue text. It is laid out. We are explicitly masons.

Btw. I can't give my track/watch immune thing to Yume, and that is in large part because no fucking duh if I had a choice I'd be giving it to the player I know is conftown. But my role PM specifies I cannot hand it to her.

Then fucking explain what attitude

After more people weigh in.

[mastina]

I remember fake claiming mason a few years back and it didnt even make sense for me to be masons and people believed it. Now it just doesnt work anymore

As the expert in the mason gambit.

There is a time and a place to use the mason gambit.

This isn't it.

There's more to our role than just being masons. But we are, explicitly. Masons. Not "basically masons". Not "well our roles suggest we're both town". Not "we our roles heavily indicate that we're both town". Or anything of the sort. Explicitly. THAT WORD. Masons. Not another title. Not something else. Part of our role titles. Is "mason". And one of our abilities. Is "you are a mason with Nico Robin" (me)/"you are a mason with mastina" (Yume).

[mastina]

what the fuck
these mason claims are bullshit

Eh, probably, but if so it's town bullshit in this case.
Lovebird is hard-town.
bee is pretty damn hard-town.
If they're town without the claim I don't really see any reason to care about the claim. They're either town who aren't masons or town who are masons but either way they aren't scum, so. MOVING ON.

[mastina]

You mean to tell me there are

four

people who can conftown

"What the fuck is this bullshit setup, Cheet? How the fuck was I ever supposed to stand a chance?"

[mastina]

Just leave it be Mastina might have claimed some shit in a hood and i am not delving into that.

I wanted to leave this option open for people. That is, let people believe this could be the case. But no. Explicitly a mason. We're MORE than just masons. So technically speaking you could also say this IS true; there's in a sense "claimed shit in a PT". It's just that said "claimed shit" is something inherent to our role PMs that we thus both knew from the get-go.

[mastina]

{MOMO, Yume, Mastina, Beeboy, Lovebird, Cheeky}
6 out of 13 players. this game is almost solved.

I don't disagree with this, actually.
Cheeky's the iffiest one there but I overall am not opposed to it for a few reasons.

[mastina]

We are a ridiculously bad vote. We have a mutually-confirming role (not Masons) with Cheeky.

This would be #7 which I'm okay with for reasons, too.

[mastina]

We are a ridiculously bad vote. We have a mutually-confirming role (not Masons) with Cheeky.

So there are four masons and two people who confirm each other for a total of six conftown
ok

You know what.
Fuckit.

This is scumplaining.

VOTE: Wisdom.

[mastina]

Dude, stop fishing. I think you're Town, and this isn't a pro-Town fishing expedition.

It is in fact not pro-town, and yet he did so continuously anyway!

Which alignment do you think that's more likely to come from?

[mastina]

Mastina, control your partner.

Considering she's voting the person I want lynched (Wisdom).

She's already under control as far as I'm concerned.

I did post something which can help keep her off of you in our PT tho.

Still.

We win the game if we lynch exclusively within Momrangal/Wisdom/MariaR/Lady Lambdadelta/Kokichi Oma/RedFlavor.

Of them, I am quite good with calling Momrangal town, and about equally sure on LLD being town.

Which gives you Wisdom/MariaR/Kokichi Oma/RedFlavor.

One of those names is lynchbait.

So guess which three I want lynched?

[mastina]

we agree there's 1 scum for sure in wis and sudo for sure
i nominate we lynch one of the two before page 90 and be done with it

Sure is!
Vote Wisdom tho because I'm sure as fuck not voting Sudo, so.

[mastina]

So why is everyone voting wisdom again?

Because Wisdom is your scumbuddy.

[mastina]

We could just lynch Mom and let night resolve /something/

Sure, if you want a D1 mislynch.

If you want a D1 scum lynch, Wisdom's your best bet.
I mean I'd lynch the fuck out of Maria or Kokichi but everyone seemed to drop the Kokichi scumread for no fucking reason and people can't make up their minds about Maria, so.

Wisdom it is!

[mastina]

You mean to tell me there are

four

people who can conftown

"What the fuck is this bullshit setup, Cheet? How the fuck was I ever supposed to stand a chance?"

We are a ridiculously bad vote. We have a mutually-confirming role (not Masons) with Cheeky.

So there are four masons and two people who confirm each other for a total of six conftown
ok

You know what. Fuckit.
This is scumplaining.
VOTE: Wisdom.

Now you dont like me trying to make sense of the setup

Oh trying to make sense of the setup is fine.

Trying to discredit players because them being trusted costs scum the game isn't.

[mastina]

We win the game if we lynch exclusively within Momrangal/Wisdom/MariaR/Lady Lambdadelta/Kokichi Oma/RedFlavor.

When did Sudo become town? Youre buying into the matching role bs?

Not precisely.
Sudo became town because of a combination of their play, my feelings on the slot when looking at how others viewed the slot (taking their stances into consideration more or less and from that forming a more nuanced read), and only after both of those indicated town taking into account the matching role as an indicator of town as well.

So.

It's not one thing that makes them town.

It's everything.

[mastina]

also im a fan of lynching dangerous scum while I still can

You are also a fan of lynching dangerous town.

If they flipped red, who do you think their buddies would be?

And when they flip town, who is the scum that pushed them?

[mastina]

Wow...it's kind of impressive how many strawman arguments Wis packed into the last two pages.

Yes indeed. There's a good reason for that!

[mastina]

can you please not be useless for a second

I can't complain, it's Kokichi playing to his wincon.

Wait why are we not lynching Koki again? Rereading his ISO makes my trigger finger itchy.

Because apparently people are morons and they (almost) all agree that there's scum in Wisdom/Maria/Kokichi but don't see ALL of them as scum, refuse to accept all of them as scum, and thus vote none of them because they think they can catch the scum outside this group even though that's impossible since there is none.

Scumplainer Wis first, then {LLD, Kokichi, MariaR} Alisae was giving the latter two a pass when e was Mason-reading them, but that's not a thing.

Case and point, there's a need to remove LLD there but that won't happen.

Cheeky do you want to compromise on Red? Ill do that if nobody else wants to vote Sudo

This is scum by the way.

Who is scum mara
Poe is pointing at you rn
Help me out if youre town

Who is scum Wisdom
POE is pointing at you rn

In fact I believe it was CheekyTeeky who raised that point that your own fucking POE was self-incriminating in that the thoughts you presented had the logical conclusion of you being scum.

[mastina]

I don't like how you brought up the evil twin thing and is kinda going back and forth between trying to push me and getting me to talk and open up to you

These are fine points! I'd appreciate follow-through on what the conclusion from this would be thinking about what alignment makes the most sense doing them.

[mastina]

I have a lot of trouble believing this game has 6 confirmed towns btw.

So?
Ignore the conftown, focus on the town.

CheekyTeeky rings townbells even without a claim that I buy is more likely to be a townclaim.
Sudowoodo rings enough townbells even without a claim that I buy they're more likely to be a townclaim.
I don't care about a mason claim from you and Lovebird you two are town anyway.
And Nico would be solidly town even if she wasn't my mason partner.

I mean, to be honest, haven't given much thought to my own play and whether I'd be obvtown or not, but that's still at minimum five town names without claims.

Crossreference with Momrangal who is fairly town and Momomen who bleeds town and LLD who is more likely town for many of the reasons presented, and you've got 9/13.

Again.
Leaving RedFlavor, MariaR, Kokichi Oma, and Wisdom.

One of these names is not like the others.

So it should be no wonder why my lynchlist is what it is.
MariaR, Kokichi Oma, and Wisdom are in the POE pool.
They furthermore have a shitload of scum content, with clear scum motivations, a traceable scum mindset, with actions that are visible scum-oriented in that they further the scum wincon to do.

That's why they should be lynched.

[mastina]

Momrangal [2]

- RedFlavor, MariaR

Lady LambdaDelta [1]

- Kokichi Oma

RedFlavor [5]

- Momrangal, Lady LambdaDelta, beeboy, Wisdom, CheekyTeeky

Sudowoodo [2]

- MOMOMEN, Lovebird

Wisdom [3]

- NicoRobin, mastina, Sudowoodo

When you see RedFlavor flip town, this will be a fine wagon to demonstrate precisely why you powerfuckinglynch Wisdom.

[mastina]

Fine.
VOTE: ...MOMRANGAL

When you learn that all these juicy counterwagons you keep pursuing are just town shinies distracting you from lynching the fucking scum.

I'll be here.

Waiting.

But until then have fun, go ahead, helps sort town I guess. Just don't expect to hit scum that way.

[mastina]

Cheeky i don't think kokichi is scum
Youre probably turned off by his playstyle as it usually happens

As someone who has played with Kokichi.

I can tell the fucking difference.

This is Kokichi Oma as scum. Solidly, THOROUGHLY, his scumplay. Through and through.

And yes I have the fucking experience to back that up. This is how he plays as scum; this is absolutely nothing like how he plays as town.

[mastina]

I don't think scum-Kokichi threatens to replace out and then selfvotes on top of it
Maybe one of the two, but a scum that uses those as weapons most likely thinks using two one after another is too much and doesn't do it

This is why I have a townlean on him

Yeah and this reasoning is absolute ass and you would fucking know better than this if you were town.

[mastina]

And as for Kokichi, how is this not his town game? He's as useless as he always is D1

Except no.

Kokichi was anything but useless.

Quite the opposite in fact.

That's one of the first fucking things I noticed. "Oh, Kokichi's posting content. Yep, scum." Literally the first thing I noticed, why I instantly named him as the third scum.

[mastina]

When did you trick me? I figured you out the moment you shaded me

Huh.
Guess what I'd describe your play towards many of the players who should be locktown?

[mastina]

the thing with sudo is that they're trying to project a town image without actually solving. a lot of what they say is meaningless statements meshed together to look like solving, but nothing ever goes below surface level.

Sorry, but no.

That's not even remotely what they've done this game.

[mastina]

red's committed to this bus i see

OR, genius idea.
They aren't fucking scum together and the people pushing that as such are the actual fucking scum.

[mastina]

Thinking over it again, mara probably doesnt crumb and claim a role that looks so scummy
And red pouncing on her claim feels really opportunistic

Nice narrative!

Too bad it doesn't hold up to the actual game thread.

RedFlavor voted Momrangal long before that and even cased her well before the claim.

[mastina]

uh back to the drawing board

sudo/red/?

Is it really maria again

Maria/Red makes some sense given shes agreed with scumreads on red yet never voted there

Maria/Sudo though? Lots of theatre there, dont know how likely this is

This is what I'm talking about RE: Wisdom's own fucking POE pointing to him as being scum.

He admits his own fucking scumhunting POE gives a scumteam that doesn't make any sense.

The reason why it doesn't make any sense is because Wisdom himself is scum.

[mastina]

vote mom/red if you wanna live.

Sorry, but voting town is against my wincon.

Feel free to pursue yours though!

[mastina]

If you green I'm probably going Wisdom fwiw

Why do tomorrow what you can do today?

[mastina]

town is so god dam divided that this is a wolf win so I don't feel like trying.

I mean.
Your scumreads are literally my scumreads, so.
As long as I live, I push them.
And Yume pushes my reads once I die if she lives longer than me, so.

Probably given you don't want us to be your hope.

[mastina]

Like case Wisdom for me

Okay! Case done.

[mastina]

your wolf game isn't amazing, but its definitely good and significantly better than your town game. i have a doc i've been working on where i rate players to try and draw cross comparisons in skill and your wolf is rated much higher than town. sorry ali, this lynch is happening.

Sorry but that version of burden of proficiency is still a logical fallacy.

FUCKING VOTE ME BECAUSE NOT ONLY AM I GARBAGE AT FUCKING MAFIA I'M ALSO A GARBAGE HUMAN BEING

and knock off the ate, lmao. it doesnt help anyone.

Try using it on this instead, and you'll get the non-fallacious usage of it.

Specifically. Ali is a good scum player. The AtE doesn't help anyone. If it doesn't help Ali as scum, the conclusion to draw from this, knowing Ali is a good scum player, is...

...Come on I'm giving you the steps here you should be able to fill in the blank.

[mastina]

Like she should know this is ali scum ateing yet shes stepping back

Actually, backwards. She knows this is Ali as town and steps back but as town because of her own emotions she wouldn't.

[mastina]

Every thought i have is in the thread, its been a long time since ive been this transparent

Oh you've been transparent alright.
Transparently scum.

[mastina]

Im guessing red left because he doesnt want to play with a scumbuddy like ali

And this is obviously bullshit because this is obviously Red being force-replaced for reasons the mod doesn't want to disclose and thus null.

[mastina]

I am excited to see who will see "8 days left in deadline, 100 pages long, day 1."
And chooses to replace in.

Man that is more exciting to me then actual in game flips.

You're not wrong.

To be honest you'll probably get someone who just doesn't bother to read come in like Ginngie. She has a lot more free time available so this is right up her alley, too, so I wouldn't at all be surprised if she or someone just like her took the slot.

[mastina]

can this day phase not go on another 3 days pls

It will if you keep trying to lynch people who shouldn't be lynched.

I can give you this--I can reevaluate Sudowoodo D2 off of the result of PRs, claims, and flips and whatnot.
I cannot lynch them today.

I will only lynch in Wisdom/Kokichi Oma/MariaR. Nobody else.

And if you want the day to end. Then you lynch one of them with me. Figure out how to rally the support. It's doable.

Sudowoodo, not so much. Maybe it gets done...but it gets done close to deadline.

[mastina]

because ate

Like Koki?

A fine point for those who called Kokichi town yet are scumreading Sudowoodo off of it.

They've got some explainin' to do on what makes the two different AtEs be opposite.
(Well technically so do those who have Kokichi as scum and Sudo as town meaning I owe it to ya but I asked first. )

[mastina]

Mastina and Nico, come hammer please.

I could almost ask you and Sudo to do that on Wisdom, soooooooooooooooooooo.
Respectably, no. I quite like my Wisdom wagon.

[mastina]

mastina should stay out of my games if she plans to just tunnel me all game

I don't tunnel you.

I tunnel players I think are scum.

I think you are scum and thus I tunnel you.

But I'm not tunneling YOU.

And I have pretty damn good reasons for this.

[mastina]

sudo made my partner quit the site my vote isnt leaving that slot for the game

I'm going to be blunt.

Welcome to mafiascum.

We are assholes.
People quit the site because we're assholes.
Tough luck, doesn't change our alignment.

Now go lynch scum.

[mastina]

I feel like there is one scum between sudowoodo and cheeky based off mechanics. Where do you stand on that

I consider mechanics to be very largely null and if they do have an influence, for it to be augmenting and enhancing play--which would indicate town, not scum, for both.

[mastina]

mastina who is scum when you see me flip town?

Well you're

not

, but in that hypothetical world.

What makes my scumreads change?

Nothing. Still lynching MariaR/Kokichi Oma first and then looking to RedFlavor after that as a start.

[mastina]

I want to see how you'll apologize for all this bs when you see my flip

I don't do apologies, sorry.

[mastina]

its unacceptable tunneling me from page 1 to page 106 without reconsidering for a moment

You know.

This sentiment seems oddly familiar to me.

I wonder why?

So in honor of that apparently being a game you looked up to me in.

Instead of responding to you.

I'll instead point to my iso.

Because my response to Bulbazak still works to this very day as a response to your point RE: tunneling.
You didn't seem to have an issue with my response to him back then, I wonder why you seem to have an issue with it now?

[mastina]

Maybe, maybe not. I feel like she makes more sense than Wisdom if that counts for anything. Idrc about AtE though so suck it up people.

Yeah that's the thing.

It's not that I don't reconsider.

That's what people trying to discredit me say.

I reconsider plenty.

It's just that when the evidence points to someone being scum.

It points to that player being fucking scum.

And I am not going to lie.
I am not going to fake a read change.
And say it doesn't.

The reason my Wisdom read hasn't changed is that he has no content which changes the read--quite the opposite, his content continues to reinforce the read because he is continuing to do things that make sense for him to do as scum and do not make sense for him to do as town.

[mastina]

you havent tried to reconsider once
you just blindly assign scum motivation to everything i do
paranoia is fine, poe is fine, but everything has a limit

Yeah the thing is.
Reconsidering on you WOULD be just that. Paranoia. Nothing more, nothing less. It would be doubts based off of nothing, with no grounding in reality. Because the evidence points to scum and you are

still

doing the scum thing even in this post. 2654 is still scum. Because you are still displaying the same exact traits.

The same traits which further a scum wincon.
And do nothing to further a town wincon.
The same traits which push a pro-scum agenda.
And don't push a town agenda.

It's not that I'm blindly assigning scum motivation to everything you do.
It's that all there IS is scum motivation. Because that's your fucking alignment so that's what I'm fucking seeing.

[mastina]

I'm scum for posting content?

No, but you're scum for the type of content you did post.

[mastina]

next you should argue scum receive role pms, i definitely received a role pm, so i am scum

You jest, but actually, there's a difference between scum confirm posts and town confirm posts, but that's a useless tangent to this game so I digress.

It's just that when the evidence points to someone being scum.

what evidence?

The evidence I have both implicitly hinted at without explaining outright, and the evidence I have explicitly given which you conveniently ignore; I've raised a BUNDLELOAD of points that you just brush over.

[mastina]

It doesnt make sense for me to try to solve the game

Oh it does you just haven't.

It doesnt make sense for me to try and work with my townreads

Oh it does just not in the way you have.

It doesnt make sense for me to try and compromise when my scumreads are not reaching a lynch

As a matter of fact? Yes, it doesn't make sense.

It doesnt make sense to fucking try and work even with people who scumread me, see Nico and you

Oh it does, just not in the way you've done it.

There's scum ways of doing those things and town ways of doing those things; you are doing the scum ways.

[mastina]

What is the town thing to do if not show you how you are wrong and how we should be working together to lynch scum?

There is an answer to this, but respectably, now is not the time for me to give it.

[mastina]

fuck you

replace out

For the record, this is, explicitly, a null replace.
It does not make Wisdom town.
It does not make Wisdom scum.
It does not change my Wisdom stance in any way.

So.

[mastina]

I think that points to at least one very good scum player here.

Well,

duh

.

Care to narrow it down?

Because...
i) beeboy
ii) CheekyTeeky
iii) Momrangal

iv) OnTheMark Wisdom

v) MariaR

vii) Lady Lambdadelta

viii) Kokichi Oma

x) mastina

xi) Pine Sudowoodo [Hydra of Alisae & Pine]

xiii) MOMOMEN [Hydra of

Eddie Cane

& Killthestory]

...This is the list of players I'd call, at least

situationally

, "very good scum players".
The bolded are players I'd call, fairly universally, very good scum players.
The italicized I personally don't consider to be that skilled but in spite of how transparent their scumgame is, by god, dammit, in spite of knowing they're scum you can't actually fucking lynch them so I guess they count as very good scum players too, begrudgingly.

...This is not a small list, so saying that the scum contains at least one very good scum player doesn't narrow things down much.

[mastina]

Help me catch up who all is neg utility?

For the record, there is an 80% chance that OnTheMark is faking this catch-up and already knows everything.

That's not a 20% chance OnTheMark is town, by the way.

That's 80% chance OnTheMark is scum faking a lack of knowledge, 18% chance OnTheMark is scum genuinely lacking the knowledge, and a 2% chance OnTheMark is just town without the knowledge.

So what I'm saying is, I think that OnTheMark is faking a lack of knowledge; even if he's not, the lack of knowledge wouldn't make him town.

So I'm quite happy with my vote.

[mastina]

Mastina you’re claiming neg utility action and

town mason

with Nico, correct?

Correct. There is more to both Nico's role and my role than just being a mason. We each have at least one additional power. It would be anti-town to claim further details than that information; we've revealed the important parts, that we are masons, that we're more than just masons, and that I have a compulsive negative utility action I must use today.

I think this post was a joke. beeboy is claiming mason with lovebird iirc.

No, I'm quite certain beeboy's town godfather claim was serious. It either exists in tandem with his mason role because you're not going to be JUST a mason and nothing else (proof: Nico and I), or it exists without the mason and is his actual real role.

Either way, it exists. Mason-godfather, or Godfather-fakeclaiming-mason. But it's real.

Pine I expect better from you tbh so I think you're scum.

Au contrair! Better from Pine would be scum from Pine.

[mastina]

If you think you can ever make a post like "Maria only does ___ as scum or ___ as town" and it be correct you're wrong. I've openly said I hate using high levels of ate as scum though because winning like that isn't fun at all. Like could I prob win with high level ate and if I tryhard the fuck just going for a scum win? Yeah but that's not fun.

Uh-huh.

(I'd all too happily wagon Maria if the Mark wagon fell apart.)

[mastina]

Mod could scum be masons?

The answer to this is no. Nico actually asked this right off the bat in our mason PT. Was one of the first things she did. Thought it was pretty dumb to do because of course masons are town in a non-bastard game it is literally written into the wiki for masons to be conftown to one another, but she asked it anyway as one of her quirks and Cheet did answer, so.

Absolutely, masons are conftown. They cannot be scum.

[mastina]

Masons are a group of players who can speak to each other privately and

know that everyone in their group is not a member of the Mafia

. Whether the Masons' ability to privately communicate can be used at any time or at Night only is up to the moderator's discretion. The number of Masons can vary from game to game, and

it is not impossible for there to exist separate Mason groups within the same game

.

Alignment:
Pro-town

(Also, this is a quite serious dare.

Find me the last game to use a MAFIA Mason.

I'd be willing to bet you can't find one later than 2010. I know there's one in a notorious Large "Normal" which was singlehandedly the game responsible for launching the inception of the NRG, but that game also had a cult and lyncher in it among others. Yes, I said NORMAL. With airquotes for good fucking reason.)

[mastina]

Me and Lovebird are still gambiting.
Mastina and Nicorobin are still masons yw.

Fixed that for you.

[mastina]

Mod could scum be masons?

The answer to this is no. Nico actually asked this right off the bat in our mason PT. Was one of the first things she did. Thought it was pretty dumb to do because of course masons are town in a non-bastard game it is literally written into the wiki for masons to be conftown to one another, but she asked it anyway as one of her quirks and Cheet did answer, so.

Absolutely, masons are conftown. They cannot be scum.

To be a little more explicit.

Nico's exact question to Cheetory was if we are explicitly confirmed town to one another; Cheet answered that yes, we are. (Actually it was just 'yes'.)

If beeboy and Lovebird are genuinely masons, they can ask that same question to Cheetory and get that same answer.

[mastina]

Scum masons is not outside Jingle’s repertoire.

This is scum speculation 100% of the time (because scum can almost never win if both sets of masons are treated as conftown) especially since I know Jingle enough to say yes they fucking are. Jingle is one of the best players at knowing setups and their interplay. Especially setups featuring mechanics such as masons; he singlehandedly broke open jjh's Iambic Tetrameter game decisively and accurately.

He would know better than to stoop to scum masons. That is, if the idea was even considered in the first place. It is such an outrageous idea that frankly it would never cross his mind in the first place. Masons are conftown to one another. Period.

[mastina]

Mod could scum be masons?

The answer to this is no. Nico actually asked this right off the bat in our mason PT. Was one of the first things she did. Thought it was pretty dumb to do because of course masons are town in a non-bastard game it is literally written into the wiki for masons to be conftown to one another, but she asked it anyway as one of her quirks and Cheet did answer, so.

Absolutely, masons are conftown. They cannot be scum.

To be a little more explicit.

Nico's exact question to Cheetory was if we are explicitly confirmed town to one another; Cheet answered that yes, we are. (Actually it was just 'yes'.)

If beeboy and Lovebird are genuinely masons, they can ask that same question to Cheetory and get that same answer.

To further confirm we are masons.

Say beeboy and Lovebird come back and confirm this is the answer Cheetory gives to the question, "Are we explicitly conftown to one another?". That Cheetory answers 'yes' to it.

Okay then.
Try asking the mod, "Hypothetically, if I were a mason with another player, would we be conftown to one another?"
If Cheetory refuses to answer that question.

In spite of answering it for Nico and I.
And beeboy/Lovebird (assuming they can even produce this confirmation in the first place).
Then he is by proxy confirming we cannot have this information as scum.

And yes I know I am backing Cheetory into a corner; that's what I fucking do.

Cheetory has two choices here.
He can keep modding his game consistently, deny the answers to the non-masons, give them to the second pair of masons, and indirectly confirm by this process we are conftown.
Or he can break consistent modding practice by giving answers to the non-masons...which, by proxy of him needing to answer the same. Ends up indirectly confirming by that process we are conftown.

I might not be wording this the best way, but basically.

-Cheetory has, publicly, denied to answer the question of if masons are conftown to one another.
-Cheetory has, privately to Nico Robin and I, confirmed that we are explicitly conftown to one another.
-If beeboy and Lovebird are genuinely masons, Cheetory cannot justify giving one set of masons one answer and then giving a different set of masons a different answer; this is setting his game up for self-destruction, and thus, he is forced to give them the same answer to maintain consistent modding practice.
-However, Cheetory DOES have a choice: between privately confirming to players that masons are explicitly confirmed to one another, or privately denying to answer players asking if masons are explicitly confirmed to one another.
*If Cheetory chooses to privately confirm that masons are explicitly confirmed to one another, then while the option of scum fakeclaiming remains theoretically possible, we have confirmed that there's no fucking thing as "One half of the masonry is town, the other half is scum". This allows us to know that the only possibilities are both-town or both-scum.
*If Cheetory chooses to privately decline to answer if masons are explicitly confirmed to one another, then it confirms that Nico Robin, myself, beeboy, and Lovebird

somehow

obtained information unavailable to others; four names having it means we can't be a scumteam, either. This confirms beyond any shadow of a doubt that we are conftown.

Of course. This plan doesn't work if beeboy and Lovebird aren't actually masons and thus can't get the information Nico and I got, buuuuuuut. I'd take that smugly too as an "I fucking told you so that we were masons".

[mastina]

Mod could scum be masons?

The answer to this is no. Nico actually asked this right off the bat in our mason PT. Was one of the first things she did. Thought it was pretty dumb to do because of course masons are town in a non-bastard game it is literally written into the wiki for masons to be conftown to one another, but she asked it anyway as one of her quirks and Cheet did answer, so.

Absolutely, masons are conftown. They cannot be scum.

To be a little more explicit.

Nico's exact question to Cheetory was if we are explicitly confirmed town to one another; Cheet answered that yes, we are. (Actually it was just 'yes'.)

If beeboy and Lovebird are genuinely masons, they can ask that same question to Cheetory and get that same answer.

To further confirm we are masons.

Say beeboy and Lovebird come back and confirm this is the answer Cheetory gives to the question, "Are we explicitly conftown to one another?". That Cheetory answers 'yes' to it.

Okay then.
Try asking the mod, "Hypothetically, if I were a mason with another player, would we be conftown to one another?"
If Cheetory refuses to answer that question.

In spite of answering it for Nico and I.
And beeboy/Lovebird (assuming they can even produce this confirmation in the first place).
Then he is by proxy confirming we cannot have this information as scum.

And yes I know I am backing Cheetory into a corner; that's what I fucking do.

Cheetory has two choices here.
He can keep modding his game consistently, deny the answers to the non-masons, give them to the second pair of masons, and indirectly confirm by this process we are conftown.
Or he can break consistent modding practice by giving answers to the non-masons...which, by proxy of him needing to answer the same. Ends up indirectly confirming by that process we are conftown.

I might not be wording this the best way, but basically.

-Cheetory has, publicly, denied to answer the question of if masons are conftown to one another.
-Cheetory has, privately to Nico Robin and I, confirmed that we are explicitly conftown to one another.
-If beeboy and Lovebird are genuinely masons, Cheetory cannot justify giving one set of masons one answer and then giving a different set of masons a different answer; this is setting his game up for self-destruction, and thus, he is forced to give them the same answer to maintain consistent modding practice.
-However, Cheetory DOES have a choice: between privately confirming to players that masons are explicitly confirmed to one another, or privately denying to answer players asking if masons are explicitly confirmed to one another.
*If Cheetory chooses to privately confirm that masons are explicitly confirmed to one another, then while the option of scum fakeclaiming remains theoretically possible, we have confirmed that there's no fucking thing as "One half of the masonry is town, the other half is scum". This allows us to know that the only possibilities are both-town or both-scum.
*If Cheetory chooses to privately decline to answer if masons are explicitly confirmed to one another, then it confirms that Nico Robin, myself, beeboy, and Lovebird

somehow

obtained information unavailable to others; four names having it means we can't be a scumteam, either. This confirms beyond any shadow of a doubt that we are conftown.

Of course. This plan doesn't work if beeboy and Lovebird aren't actually masons and thus can't get the information Nico and I got, buuuuuuut. I'd take that smugly too as an "I fucking told you so that we were masons".

To reiterate.

beeboy and Lovebird, you need to ask Cheetory IN YOUR MASON PT if you are explicitly conftown to one another.
Everyone who is not a mason, you need to ask Cheetory IN PRIVATE, "Hypothetically, if I were a mason with another player, would we be explicitly conftown to one another?"

No matter how Cheetory responds, if everyone follows this process, we will end up confirming information about masons.

That beeboy and Lovebird are fucking liars (just town ones at that) if they can't produce this confirmation, that masons can't be town-scum if Cheetory answers in private, or that all four of mastina/Nico/beeboy/Lovebird have information unavailable even by asking the mod and thus it pertains to their roles and thus they are actually masons.

No matter which option we come out as having. You end up with conftown that are, truly, even without flips, conftown.

All you have to do is ask the right question to the mod.

[mastina]

Also for the record our PT name is literally just "MASON PT", which if beeboy and Lovebird are legit masons I can assume they'll be able to confirm is the name of theirs as well.

[mastina]

So shut the fuck up with your obfuscation about the Mason claims.

Here's an idea.

Obfuscating about the mason claims is playing to his wincon.

Most likely, one pair is lying and is scum. I suspect they're your partners, and I'm starting to think that the Occam's answer is Nico/Mastina. Nico messaged us about Masons before Mastina gave the green light, and now she's doing everything she can to keep up the pretense, because failing to do so is an instant double-lynch. Bee and Lovebird, on the other hand, played the way I expect Masons to play - they kept their cool and only claimed when it became necessary and proper.

Okay then if this is your perspective then help us double-fucking-bus considering Yume and I are HARD-pushing the Wisdomslot/OnTheMark as scum and that's where our vote is at, sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo......

[mastina]

Is it sad that I auto-TRD math because he doesn't like replacing into scummy slots?

Actually.
You have two options there.
Either OnTheMark didn't read the game in advance and thus had no way of knowing the alignment of the player he was replacing.
Or, in spite of OnTheMark pretending otherwise, he DID read the game in advance and thus him pretending to do otherwise is fucking bullshit.

Benefit of the doubt leads to the former. Which gives you...

...A literal roll of the die as to Mark's alignment; he can be town or scum with equal chances.

What makes him scum is what he's

doing

since coming in.

[mastina]

1) Scum masons are not bastard similar to scum without nightchat, Unexpected yes. A lie, no.

Pedit wtf? masons is just people of same alignment.

Which is it?

3) I am not trying to “get the masons lynched” I am trying to understand the setup and how Jingle would ever approve this.

Huh. Funny. I seem to recall hearing

this exact fucking excuse

before. I wonder where......

lol
It doesnt make sense for me to try to solve the game

OH RIGHT.
(Could find a better quote than that one but you get the idea.)

[mastina]

Can't tell if Town!OTM is conflating Neighbor and Mason
Or if Scum!OTM is being intentionally obtuse to muddy the waters.
Leaning the latter.

Oh it is SO the latter.

Especially as this has been tackled from every fucking angle possible.

You literally having the masons themselves having fucking TOLD you that THE MOD TOLD THEM THAT THEY ARE EXPLICITLY CONFTOWN TO EACH OTHER.

The mod told us we are conftown to one another.

Yume claimed this and OnTheMark has paid it no heed.

This game is not bastard.

This has been pointed out.

Scum masons are bastard.

This has been pointed out.

OnTheMark is trying to shade every possible angle to have the masons not treated as conftown. Because OnTheMark knows that if four players are treated as town, the game becomes almost impossible for scum to win.

[mastina]

The bigger question is why none of the mason claims scum read each other after both have doubled down.

Simple.

Because I am using the metric every fucking player should be using.

Play > Role.

And Roleclaim != Alignment.

With a side of the exception to the rule on role != alignment in that yes some roleclaims DO equal alignment and scum don't fucking counterclaim masons on D1.

beeboy's play is ridiculously, transparently town.
Lovebird's play is strongly town especially if Lovebird is an alt of the player I think they are an alt of. (If Lovebird were said player, Lovebird would be all-but-explicitly-conftown on play alone.)
Scum don't counterclaim masons on D1 especially knowing that we WILL be flipping masons and they WOULD get in trouble for it.
Scum also don't casually claim masons in the way beeboy did.
Scum also don't leave the breadcrumbs for being masons in the way beeboy and Lovebird did.

The reason I am not suspicious of beeboy or Lovebird in spite of their counterclaim is because it is transparently obvious they are town.
Are they masons? Fucked if I know. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. But regardless. Masons, not masons. They are town either way.

And continuing to shadethrow the masons continues to be a scumclaim.

Because once more.

Scum cannot win this game if both sets of masons are treated as conftown.

So they fucking NEED to try and get people doubting one if not both of the masons.

[mastina]

I briefly reconsidering my stance on your predecessor, but you are spouting the same sort of nonsense he did, so I am keeping my vote where it is.

This is precisely why OnTheMark is scum--OnTheMark is following, exactly, down to the letter,

the exact same strategem Wisdom was doing

. There is a continuity to the slot, one not possible if it were town but which makes obvious sense as scum, because as scum OnTheMark would be apprised of the situation and know he needed to keep doing what Wisdom was doing.

I have seen this from scum Mathblade before. (Forget which game, but I've seen it from him.) This continuity of the slot as scum.
I've never seen this from a town Mathblade before. Because Mathblade's thoughts differ QUITE EXTREMELY from those of most individuals, thus, he is never in line with his predecessor.

I ask you.

Run an iso of Wisdom.
Run an iso of OnTheMark.
Compare the two from a viewpoint of what is being pushed.

Ask yourself--how much do they differ?
How much do they overlap?

Here, have the link to page three of Wisdom's iso with a direct continuity into OnTheMark's iso following. You don't have to read the other two pages, just the last hundred or so posts to see what I mean here.

You'll note that while the words used differ. The viewpoints do not.

[mastina]

If you think you can ever make a post like "Maria only does ___ as scum or ___ as town" and it be correct you're wrong. I've openly said I hate using high levels of ate as scum though because winning like that isn't fun at all. Like could I prob win with high level ate and if I tryhard the fuck just going for a scum win? Yeah but that's not fun.

Uh-huh. (I'd all too happily wagon Maria if the Mark wagon fell apart.)

calling me a liar?

A hypocrite, actually, but I suppose hypocrites are indirectly liars so sure.

because a mod such as yourself knows 4 masons never passes review.

Well I do doubt beeboy/Lovebird's legitimacy.
It's just that I know fucking better than to blindly assume their claim comes from scum because I am not a fucking moron. I have a fucking brain so I use my fucking rule. Play > Role(claim). They have town play, which trumps their roleclaim.

But to humor your argument--four masons in pairs of two can, has, and DOES pass review all the time; it is not nearly as uncommon a thing as you are trying to shade it to be.

[mastina]

They are confirmed to share the same fucking alignment.

Alignment:
Pro-town

Masons are a group of players who can speak to each other privately and

know that everyone in their group is not a member of the Mafia

. Whether the Masons' ability to privately communicate can be used at any time or at Night only is up to the moderator's discretion. The number of Masons can vary from game to game, and

it is not impossible for there to exist separate Mason groups within the same game

.


Variations
The Mason role has generated a fair amount of controversy and a few offshoots. Be sure you ask the moderator what precisely it means to be a Mason, as all of the below have been known to simply be called "Mason".

Most notoriously, some moderators will introduce Mafia-aligned Masons, taking the term "Mason" to imply that it is probable that the other Masons are Town-aligned, and not absolute. These nonconfirmed Masons are supposed to be middling in certainty between Neighbors (see below) and confirmed Masons; however, this is impossible to mathematically verify.

Alternatively, moderators may introduce Werewolves into Masonries (and likewise Mafia members into Monasteries) without bastardry, as the definition of a Mason or Monk is that they are confirmed not to be a member of a specific non-Town faction

.

To contrast, the standard term for players who do not know each others' alignments but can speak to each other privately is Neighbors.

Normal Guidelines
Masons, regardless of when they are allowed to speak to each other, are considered Normal on mafiascum.net,

provided they are Town-aligned

. A Masonry must contain at least two Masons.

Use and Power

The most obvious power of a Masonry (and Best Friends) is the mutual confirmation of multiple players as Town

.
In addition, while a Cop's innocent results are mostly only useful if the Cop lives to claim them and is believed,

each of the Masons can mutually confirm the others as soon as the existence of a Mason is made evident

. (For instance, if someone dies overNight and flips Mason, the other Mason(s) can still claim and be considered confirmed Town.) Last,

Mason is difficult (but not impossible) for scum to fakeclaim, as they need to put up a scumpartner to be their fake Mason partner and hope that neither of them die over the course of the game

.

Nowhere in this does it say masons are confirmed to be of the same alignment.

You are outright lying about the nature of the mason role.

Nowhere on the fucking page does it say they are confirmed to be the same alignment.

At every spot where alignment-confirmation is mentioned, it is also mentioned with the word TOWN. As in, confirmed to be TOWN aligned.

Try again.

[mastina]

Again if you’re town it’s legalese and splitting hairs

WHICH IS MY FUCKING SPECIALTY.
THIS IS HOW I FUCKING BREAK GAMES.

I learned from Nachomamma. (Well actually I picked it up on my own and it just so happens to be something Nacho was known for, but since I did learn from Nacho I like to say that I learned it from him. )

I don't break games with the big stuff.

I break games with the fucking details.

With the nuances.

With bombarding the moderator with questions the mod did not have the foresight to fully see.

Yes, the mod generally has an emergency self-defense mechanism against my question bombardment.

But I can, have, and DO fucking win games by doing this. (As both alignments, to be fair, but NORMALLY as town.)

Cheetory's response to questions gave me a golden opportunity.
If he had taken a different stance this game then I wouldn't have been given that opportunity--but because he used the rules he is using in regards to answering questions.

I have what is, genuinely, a gamebreaking plan which can and WILL generate absolute conftown without a flip on D1.

A type of exploitation of mod error which isn't true mod error so much as mod oversight in not thinking through the consequences of his answers or lack thereof.

So again.

Let me quote the plan once more.

Mod could scum be masons?

The answer to this is no. Nico actually asked this right off the bat in our mason PT. Was one of the first things she did. Thought it was pretty dumb to do because of course masons are town in a non-bastard game it is literally written into the wiki for masons to be conftown to one another, but she asked it anyway as one of her quirks and Cheet did answer, so.

Absolutely, masons are conftown. They cannot be scum.

To be a little more explicit.

Nico's exact question to Cheetory was if we are explicitly confirmed town to one another; Cheet answered that yes, we are. (Actually it was just 'yes'.)

If beeboy and Lovebird are genuinely masons, they can ask that same question to Cheetory and get that same answer.

To further confirm we are masons.

Say beeboy and Lovebird come back and confirm this is the answer Cheetory gives to the question, "Are we explicitly conftown to one another?". That Cheetory answers 'yes' to it.

Okay then.
Try asking the mod, "Hypothetically, if I were a mason with another player, would we be conftown to one another?"
If Cheetory refuses to answer that question.

In spite of answering it for Nico and I.
And beeboy/Lovebird (assuming they can even produce this confirmation in the first place).
Then he is by proxy confirming we cannot have this information as scum.

And yes I know I am backing Cheetory into a corner; that's what I fucking do.

Cheetory has two choices here.
He can keep modding his game consistently, deny the answers to the non-masons, give them to the second pair of masons, and indirectly confirm by this process we are conftown.
Or he can break consistent modding practice by giving answers to the non-masons...which, by proxy of him needing to answer the same. Ends up indirectly confirming by that process we are conftown.

I might not be wording this the best way, but basically.

-Cheetory has, publicly, denied to answer the question of if masons are conftown to one another.
-Cheetory has, privately to Nico Robin and I, confirmed that we are explicitly conftown to one another.
-If beeboy and Lovebird are genuinely masons, Cheetory cannot justify giving one set of masons one answer and then giving a different set of masons a different answer; this is setting his game up for self-destruction, and thus, he is forced to give them the same answer to maintain consistent modding practice.
-However, Cheetory DOES have a choice: between privately confirming to players that masons are explicitly confirmed to one another, or privately denying to answer players asking if masons are explicitly confirmed to one another.
*If Cheetory chooses to privately confirm that masons are explicitly confirmed to one another, then while the option of scum fakeclaiming remains theoretically possible, we have confirmed that there's no fucking thing as "One half of the masonry is town, the other half is scum". This allows us to know that the only possibilities are both-town or both-scum.
*If Cheetory chooses to privately decline to answer if masons are explicitly confirmed to one another, then it confirms that Nico Robin, myself, beeboy, and Lovebird

somehow

obtained information unavailable to others; four names having it means we can't be a scumteam, either. This confirms beyond any shadow of a doubt that we are conftown.

Of course. This plan doesn't work if beeboy and Lovebird aren't actually masons and thus can't get the information Nico and I got, buuuuuuut. I'd take that smugly too as an "I fucking told you so that we were masons".

To reiterate.

beeboy and Lovebird, you need to ask Cheetory IN YOUR MASON PT if you are explicitly conftown to one another.
Everyone who is not a mason, you need to ask Cheetory IN PRIVATE, "Hypothetically, if I were a mason with another player, would we be explicitly conftown to one another?"

No matter how Cheetory responds, if everyone follows this process, we will end up confirming information about masons.

That beeboy and Lovebird are fucking liars (just town ones at that) if they can't produce this confirmation, that masons can't be town-scum if Cheetory answers in private, or that all four of mastina/Nico/beeboy/Lovebird have information unavailable even by asking the mod and thus it pertains to their roles and thus they are actually masons.

No matter which option we come out as having. You end up with conftown that are, truly, even without flips, conftown.

All you have to do is ask the right question to the mod.

Either find a flaw in this plan, or fucking follow it.

Because I am 100% confident this tells you the truth of the game if followed through.

[mastina]

Mastina if you truly intend on busing actually do it pls.

Sorry, but voting Momrangal would be legit, genuinely bussing town.

I only "bus" scum.

[mastina]

You guys are so bad at voting Mom.
Also what is her flavor I don't think anyone answered me when I asked.

Momrangal's flavor is mastina.
Which.
Yaknow.

Makes perfect fucking sense as being a Mason Cop given I am the poster child for mason gambits.

Wisdom (now OnTheMark) also has me, mastina, as the slot's flavor btw.

And in spite of softing an ability has not actually outright claimed what it is. Wonder why?

[mastina]

I've seen scum literally deviate from there fake claims before and out themselves as a result. I've deviated from my fake claim before and put myself in a worse spot as scum.

And yet you think that I could be scum in spite of me fucking being the POSTER CHILD for not fucking lying as scum

for this exact reason

.

#logic.

[mastina]

I literally just think Mom claimed her scum role. What aspects of her play are particularly townie?

This is a little difficult to answer without it being just ~stuff~, but really, ~stuff~ just rings town.

But anyway.

This seemed like a good place to once more run through what I am getting at, with all the relevant information.

-

FACT: Momrangal has claimed Mason Cop, getting results in the form of "Mason" or "Not Mason".

This is indisputable.
It is generally agreed that this is not a fakeclaim. Those who think Momrangal think it's her real role, just claimed as scum; those who think her town think it's her real role. Does everyone agree so far? Okay then! From this, we can go further with an additional inference.

-

Inferred Fact: If there is a Mason Cop in the game, then it is likely there is

at least

one set of actual masons. Possibly two.

So you follow with this, right? You might have thoughts on it, that it's possible to exist without masons as a red herring role, or that the possibility of two mason sets is slim, but you follow with the statement as worded, yes? Likely (even if not definitively) at least one set of masons (maybe two).

Alright, good with that?

I'd love to spend extra time on why I feel a mason cop increases the odds of four masons in the game (namely because it gives the mason cop more people to get results on), but if I did that I'd be taking away from the point of my argument, so let's keep on going.

-

FACT: Nico Robin and mastina are claimed masons together; beeboy and Lovebird are claimed masons together.

This is indisputable.

-

Inferred Fact: Given our prior inferred fact of the mason cop, it can then be assumed at least one (possibly both) sets of claims is thus true.

Thus, it can be inferred that AT LEAST one set of beeboy/Lovebird and Nico Robin/mastina are masons, with the possibility both are.

-

FACT: Cheetory has declined to answer if masons would be explicitly conftown to one another publicly.

This is indisputable.

-

FACT: Nico Robin and mastina are claiming that when Nico Robin asked Cheetory if they were explicitly conftown to one another, Cheetory answered "yes".

This is indisputable.

And here's where the critical step is.
-

Inferred Fact: Nico Robin and I are claiming information not available by asking publicly. The only possibility is thus that we obtained this information over a private channel. The possible channels are PM/mafia PT/mason PT.

-

Inferred Fact Followthrough: Mafia PTs function identically for all intents and purposes to PMs; an answer available by PM is available in the mafia PT, and vice-versa.

-

Inferred Fact2: If beeboy and Lovebird are actually masons, they should get the same answer because Cheetory won't treat two mason pairs differently from one another.

-

Inferred Fact2 followthrough: If beeboy and Lovebird cannot produce the same answer, then you have a confirmed liar pair in the set of beeboy/Lovebird and Nico Robin/mastina; if beeboy and Lovebird can produce the same answer, then you have confirmation of the answer's accuracy.

And from here, I shouldn't need to hold your hand as I walk you through it. But I will anyway.

-

Inferred Facts Followthroughs' Inferred Fact: By asking Cheetory via PM, "Hypothetically, if I were a mason with a player, would we be conftown to one another?", you can test whether mafia can get access to this information. If Cheetory declines to answer, then mafia cannot access the information; if Cheetory does answer, then mafia can access information.

-

Inferred Facts Followthroughs' Inferred Fact Followthrough: If Cheetory confirms that masons are explicitly conftown to one another, then you know AT LEAST one set of beeboy/Lovebird and mastina/Nico Robin is town; you also know that mastina and Nico Robin were being truthful about the information they shared.

And therein lies the critical part.

Because we know there are masons in the game.
And we know that EITHER: masons are conftown to one another (Cheet answers in private) OR: mastina/Nico Robin have an answer unavailable to the public which beeboy/Lovebird EITHER: vouch for, OR: deny.

The possibilities you end up with are based on that.
-Masons are conftown; masons are in the game; you have AT LEAST one set of conftown in beeboy/Lovebird and Nico Robin/mastina.
-Masons aren't publicly known to be conftown; beeboy/Lovebird are liars by claiming to be masons and not having the answer and Nico Robin/mastina are truthfully masons.
-Masons aren't publicly known to be conftown; beeboy/Lovebird don't have a way to confirm this and Nico Robin/mastina are lying about that information for...some reason...because lying about mod communication gives them some sort of...mystical voodoo advantage of some sort. (I really don't get this one so if you believe it, you're gonna have some explainin' to do.)
-Masons aren't publicly known to be conftown; beeboy/Lovebird vouch for Nico Robin/mastina's claim that they are, and thus, this confirms all four as town.

I already know that it isn't #3.

So no matter what. You end up with knowing that there are conftown. Off of the setup information we have available to us today.

Through a combination of roleclaims and Cheetory's stances on answering questions.
We get conftown we otherwise wouldn't get.

Point out where this process is wrong.

Because my logic? It fucking holds. Because it is based off of FACTS. With the LOGICAL INFERENCES GIVEN THOSE FACTS.
Unless you want to argue that my inferences are wrong, then be my guest and fucking DO SO. I'd like to see you try.

[mastina]

Is that hammer?

Sadly, with seven to lynch, they're at L-1.

Where's Ginngie when you need her.

[mastina]

If I were scum, couldn't I just say "yes" anyways? Don't get how it confirms anything.

Why yes, yes you can!

But by answering yes, you are confirming the information we claimed is accurate.

And by confirming the information we claimed is accurate.

You are confirming us as town.

Because IF SCUM CANNOT GET AN ANSWER TO THE QUESTION. (Something WHICH CAN BE CHECKED BY NON-MASONS ASKING THE SPECIFIC HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION I GAVE.)
And WE GOT THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION.
Then that means we can't be scum.

So your alignment doesn't matter. You saying 'yes' means Nico Robin and I are conftown, so long as the moderator privately declines to answer.

[mastina]

The full list of options here, to reiterate.
-Cheetory, privately, confirms that hypothetical masons are conftown. Given this, Nico Robin and I could access this information as scum...but because we know that there are masons in the game, we know off of Cheetory's answers that the masons are town thanks to his answer; there cannot be scum masons.

-Cheetory, privately, declines to answer if hypothetical masons are conftown. Given this, Nico Robin and I cannot access this information as scum. We then subdivide.
*beeboy/Lovebird deny the information, claiming they cannot get the answer we got from Cheetory. Given this, you know there is a liar between the mason pairs. Subdividing further.
~Nico/mastina are bullshitting; they made the whole thing up, with beeboy/Lovebird's as the truthful version. (In which you need to explain why this FLAGRANT violation of occam's razor makes so much as ONE iota of sense.)
~beeboy/Lovebird are lying; Nico/mastina are telling the truth and masons are conftown.
*beeboy/Lovebird confirm the information, vouching for Nico Robin and mastina's story. We then subdivide.
~If beeboy/Lovebird are masons, then they are town. Nico Robin and mastina also have access to the information; given this, when the information is unavailable to scum, mastina and Nico Robin are conftown and beeboy/Lovebird have a fair chance of being conftown.
~If beeboy/Lovebird aren't masons, then they may or may not be town. However, because they are vouching for Nico Robin and mastina, they are claiming that Nico Robin and mastina's information is accurate. Given this, with the information unavailable to scum and the game being unable to have four scum in it, mastina and Nico Robin are conftown.

No matter what, we come out ahead.

If people actually fucking follow the plan.

There's zero downsides to this.
The town always comes out ahead here.

[mastina]

There is no way she believes 4 town masons exist and is selling that belief.

You can keep restating the same thing over and over if you'd like but it won't change the fact that I've already addressed this in multiple ways multiple times from multiple angles.

[mastina]

I mean Mastina, the thing about Cheetory not answering questions publically or privately doesn't apply to scum.

Yes it does.
Scum don't magically have more access to information on how roles-not-their-own-or-in-their-fakeclaims work.

If they did, that's poor fucking modding.

You know why?

Because it is mod bias in favor of scum.

Mods are meant to be impartial.

Scum should not have access to information on roles other than their own/safeclaims unless town has access to that very same information.

So unless you wanna argue that the mod handed Nico and I a mason safeclaim.
Or that Cheet is a bad mod who biased the setup in favor of scum by allowing scum to basically have a free rolecop just by asking questions to him. (Because that's EXACTLY what giving answers to scum not available to town is.)

My point holds.

[mastina]

I mean Mastina, the thing about Cheetory not answering questions publically or privately doesn't apply to scum.

Yes it does.
Scum don't magically have more access to information on how roles-not-their-own-or-in-their-fakeclaims work.

If they did, that's poor fucking modding.

You know why?

Because it is mod bias in favor of scum.

Mods are meant to be impartial.

Scum should not have access to information on roles other than their own/safeclaims unless town has access to that very same information.

So unless you wanna argue that the mod handed Nico and I a mason safeclaim.
Or that Cheet is a bad mod who biased the setup in favor of scum by allowing scum to basically have a free rolecop just by asking questions to him. (Because that's EXACTLY what giving answers to scum not available to town is.)

My point holds.

Another way of saying it.

If the mod answers scum asking about information on their own role, that's fine; that is to be expected.
If the mod answers town asking about information on their own role, that's fine; that is to be expected.
If the mod answers scum asking about information on their mod-provided safeclaims, that's fine; that is to be expected.

If the mod refuses to answer town about information on a role which isn't their own on the merits that it isn't their role, then that is their preference as a moderator and a valid choice.

Okay, good so far, yes?
You agree?
You follow.

Alright.

So what's the logical extension of this?

If the mod refuses to answer scum about information on a role which isn't their own and isn't one of their safeclaims, then that is the extension of the town decision.

Consistent moderation, unbiased. Scum can't access something town cannot, unless the information is given in the scum's roles or the scum's fakeclaims. Fair, balanced, even, both sides denied the same thing and being given the same thing.

If Cheetory gave answers to scum about information on a role which was NEITHER their own NOR one of their safeclaims...
...While refusing to give answers to town about information on a role which isn't their own...

...Does that sound unbiased to you?

Fuck no, because it's not; it's biased in favor of scum.
Plain and simple.
There's no ambiguity here.

Just simple facts.

[mastina]

Look at PT

I did and with respect and great love, that was a terrible idea.

<3

[mastina]

I am l-1 well I am out all day.
I still reiterate I can make momragel ‘s checks not messed with.
I still maintain that I am the counter to Mastina spreading ninja to buddies.
Just remember if I am hammered there is a lying pair or scum masons.
I gotta go. See you this weekend if I am not hammered.

And yet in spite of being at L-1 and knowing you are going away...

...You don't claim.

This is scum Mathblade.

[mastina]

{Mom, Not Mafia, LLD}

Are all town.

[mastina]

These 2 wagons suck. Who wants to help me start a new one?

If I started a new one it'd be on you.

[mastina]

I already did lolz.

No, you didn't.

You didn't name your role name. Mine is "Town (details I am deliberately blanking) Mason".
You didn't give a description of what that role entails.

You claimed negative utility, but while you've softed, you've not outright committed to saying what precisely that entails.
You have been deliberately avoiding details and Wisdom did the same fucking thing.

[mastina]

TBF it makes sense a Yume themed game would have a fuck ton of town power to balance it out

And this game with the picks people submitted is basically mastina themed.

So it makes sense that a mastina themed game would have a fuck ton of town power to balance it out.

[mastina]

I'd rather this than wisdom slot I guess VOTE: Momrangel

And this would be the scum counterwagon to the Wisdomslot.

[mastina]

So, Mastina you believe there is 4+ masons and a mason cop?

I have explained this multiple times.

Try reading my posts again.

It's not a yes, it's not a no, it's not a maybe, it's all and none of those. Which you'd know if you had an interest in my posts that was genuine and not for the sake of a strawman.

[mastina]

Can someone give me the balance reasons for 4 masons and a balance cop all being town? I just don't think that's possible unless scum have a godfather strongarm role as 1 person or something crazy like that

I actually have a theory on this.

I know of a way for the masons to be town and it not to be imbalanced.

I will have this theory confirmed by D2. Maybe sooner. But I won't know on D1.

This theory is born from the details of my role I haven't claimed.

There's very fucking good reasons we could have four masons and all be town and the mason cop also be town.

It just requires ONE specific thing, and I will be able to confirm my theory by tomorrow if that one specific thing is the case. If it is, I'll be fullclaiming. Fuck I might fullclaim anyway, but if my theory is true I definitely need to rather than maybe needing to.

[mastina]

Putting aside all Wisdom did towny, that replace out was not a scum replace out.

Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Sure.

Fuck that.

The replace out wasn't a town replace out either.

It was null.

[mastina]

So I've been prodded.
Between depression + me being really fucking sick, I'm not really sure if I can play today. (And yes, those factors existed over the weekend, too, just combined also with it being the weekend which I am

always

V/LA over and also it being Mother's Day weekend so obviously I wasn't going to be around especially not when also celebrating my sister's birthday.)

I'll try later today, but no promises. I've just been feeling like hell recently.

[mastina]

scum mastina ^

Yes, but it was also scumastina playing her strongest scumgame to date (still holds true btw) AND telling the absolute truth. Everything I said there was true. It just was built for scum instead of town. My role WAS in the opening post. I DID ask the questions. The questions DID confirm all the information I provided worked the way I indicated. I was in the right that game because everything I said was right.

[mastina]

{Not_Mafia, LLD, Mom, Mastina}
Scum are in here.

That seems like a fine townbloc if you ask me!

I don't think Yume's retarded enough to fake claim masons here.

That language is never appropriate, but the sentiment behind it holds, yes. Nico Robin is not fakeclaiming. Not fakeclaiming on my encouragement, and certainly not fakeclaiming on her own.

{Not_Mafia, LLD, Mom, Mastina}
Scum are in here.

+1

This is Maria's patented "buddy the town player that there's an aim of pocketing" ploy for the record.

VOTE: OntheMark
you're a logical player so you don't get away with awful logic

Precisely. Mathblade might be even more moonlogicky than his sibling is, but the process by which to read him doesn't change. There are certain trains of logic that he just doesn't pursue as town and no matter how stubborn he is, he can see good reasoning/logic and change his stances appropriately as town.

But here, he's just making excuses. He's warping the evidence to fit the read rather than the other way around.

[mastina]

There is no resistance to this Lynch

A fine narrative!

Too bad it doesn't hold up to reality.

Nor does the "this game can't have four masons!" point when I handedly have dealt with that logic and you stubbornly refused to address my points. (Mostly because there's no way to address them and continue with your fabricated narrative.)

[mastina]

I think nico is still gambling cause she's bad enough to do that

And I think you're scum because the scum need to cast shade on the masons because they cannot win if all four slots (especially if it's all four slots plus Momrangal plus strong townreads e.g. Momomen) are treated as town. And you are doing exactly that by stating "she's terrible enough to do that" when no, she fucking isn't.

And to top it off, I read her entire ISO and despite repeating over and over how mastina and I are scum masons together, not once did she cast a vote on either of us. If she genuinely believes we're scum masons, she should at least have the guts to cast a vote on us. But she hasn't. Know why? Cos if we flip town, casting a vote on either of us would be a death sentence for her.

Convinced yet?

This was actually part of my reasoning on Wisdom, too. The Wisdom/OnTheMark slot has a REMARKABLE continuity to it as I previously gave you last time I linked to their combined iso. And part of that was precisely this: Wisdom doubtcasted the masons in particular us, and yet in spite of him doing that, didn't vote us. OnTheMark continued doing the exact fucking same thing: doubtcasting the masons in particular us, and yet in spite of him doing that, didn't vote us. This continuity doesn't come from a slot which is town; it comes from a slot which is scum and knows what its predecessor was aiming for.

Town replacements don't know what their predecessor was doing and thus instantly contrast; scum replacements know what their predecessor was doing and thus can continue to push the same angle. I see it time and time again. Fuck, they don't even need daytalk to pull it off, either, though obviously daytalk makes it easier to pull off. (In particular, I can cite a game where I was scum in a newbie setting up a doctor fakeclaim, was force-replaced because of a lolnewbie contacting me, and my replacement claimed doctor knowing it was what I was going for, BUT I DIGRESS.)

[mastina]

@OTM And yes, I call you a she, because your main is apparently Mathblade, someone Titus says is her 'sister', and 'sisters' aren't male by default....

Also Nico, not a good idea to do this.

It gives OnTheMark an out as scum to give genuine AtE on actual genuine complaints. Mixing real life with the game, in a way which is not deplorable, which is not below the belt to do. Gives him the moral high ground, while still pushing a scum agenda. I'd know, I've both seen him do it before and been in identical positions where I as scum have done that exact thing. So don't give him free ammunition. Call him by his preferred pronouns please.

[mastina]

Also, Mastina hasn't been answering direct questions in other (nongame) threads, so it's possible she's just not current on this.

Quite correct. In addition to me ALWAYS being V/LA over the weekend. It was Mother's Day weekend to boot. And I've been dealing with depression so I've been giving my games the minimal amount of effort possible for the most part--posting just as often as necessary to avoid a prod or just after receiving a prod and not any more than that. (Good practice, too, considering that once my game Lynch The Wolves is running that'll be what I'll probably need to do even without the depression. ) Add in that I have the fucking flu and am only now days later beginning to recover, and no shit I wasn't playing the game.

I was up to date in the mason PT, answering anything Yume gave me. Because I check PTs basically daily. Mostly, anyway. But NicoRobin never gave me content from a specific page to answer (as in, say, "what do you think about post 3142?"), never quoted anything, never asked me to come into the thread, though she did ask me to tell her so she could tell Mathblade why I can't target Nico. Which I answered, but I can give an in-thread personal answer once I get to wherever Mathblade asked that question in the first place since I think me directly stating it with the context of Mathblade's question will give the best answer.

WHAT I'M SAYING HERE. Is that I haven't really been up to date on the thread, no. I'm not precisely flying absolutely blind since Yume's comments give me some vague hints as to happenings in the game. But because she is rather vague and nonspecific, I might as well be. In fact pretty much the only thing I gleaned from the PT is that Mathblade asked that question at some point; that's about it.

OTM wagon stalled. Shocker. Almost like there's a substantial minority who wants nothing to do with lynching one of their own.

Precisely why the "my wagon has no resistance!" point is absolute shit.

[mastina]

Why is letting the scum mason cop figure out that me and lovebird ade the real masons is somehow a good solution to our issues in thread.

Well for a start. In a role madness game you want to force scum to use their roles in the most pro-town way and leash them to that most pro-town way and not give them an out to use it in a less pro-town way.

But then there's also the fact that Momrangal isn't a fucking scum mason cop; she's a town mason cop and I stand firmly by my read there for a combination of reasons between both my read on the slot (her) and my read on the role and my read on the setup (I actually think I MAY have a very good idea of what Cheetory was aiming for and if so it would be something Jingle would readily approve of as being something right up his alley--but it REQUIRES that Momrangal be town).

[mastina]

Wow, notice how shit and apathetic this game has got? Its almost like lynching someone on page 70 when I said would have been better!

I mean.

I've been trying to get Wisdom/OnTheMark, MariaR, and Kokichi Oma lynched for...well.

Basically the whole game.

So when you're with me on one of those names. I've been doing what I can to support you ya know.

And because Nico to a large extent trusts/supports me. She's an automatic third voice.

It's getting the other four which is the trick.

[mastina]

3) mastina claimed mason and neg utility power role (granting ninja if memory serves) and is giving it to momomen and not her mason partner. Nico should be mastina’s top townread as masons.

Oh is this the spot?

WELL THEN.

That's actually perfect.

Because guess what?

I can answer this in one fell swoop, and provide hard fucking evidence.

The reason I am not targeting NicoRobin my fucking mason partner with the negative utility role I am compulsively required to give out is because

the ability specifies I cannot give it to NicoRobin

. Quite literally. The ability says (paraphrasing):
"You must give the track/watch immunity passive to

another player

by the end of the day. If you don't select a target, I'll randomize it for you.
Your target can't be NicoRobin."

That's as close as a direct quote as I can fucking get without getting modkilled. That's what the ability says. It must be another player (so I cannot self-target), and I cannot target NicoRobin.

Which.
Yaknow.
Makes a whole lot of sense.
Because if I could, damn fucking straight I'd give my ability to THE PLAYER I KNOW IS FUCKING CONFIRMED TOWN TO ME. It being a role harmless to give to town.

And my proof of this?

My readslist.

MOMOMEN (I'd give them the ninja, but I'm not sure it'd be wise to combine their existing negative utility with another)
NicoRobin
Momrangal
MariaR
Lovebird
Kokichi Oma
RedFlavor
beeboy
Lady Lambdadelta
Sudowoodo
CheekyTeeky
Wisdom

Readslist right now.
for some degree of clarity, LLD/beeboy/RedFlavor's positions are somewhat interchangeable since all are about the same level of 'null', but when forcing one to be higher than the other, this is the order I most felt was right, so it's what I went with.

You know

why

I ordered my list this way?

Because of my fucking negative utility role. At the time, I didn't want to say I couldn't target NicoRobin with it. People would obviously wonder why I couldn't target that specific player with it, which would give a hint as to our true nature of being masons. (Because IT WAS NOT MY IDEA TO CLAIM MASONS; I WANTED TO BE MORE COVERT.) So given that. I needed her as my

second-strongest

townread rather than my strongest.

My plan was to target my strongest townread with the ability. (Which is and remains Momomen.) If I put my mason as my strongest townread, people would wonder, "Why didn't you target your strongest townread?" I would have no good answer to this without revealing our nature, which I intended to not do. But by having her as my second-strongest townread. Nobody questions not targeting her. "Why didn't you target your second-strongest townread?" is not a question people ask; "Why didn't you target your strongest townread?" IS a question people ask.

I was also looking for feedback at the time, for damn good reason.

If Momomen's negative utility role was such that they said that they were a bad target, then I would look for feedback and eventually move NicoRobin down to my third townread and someone to be above her as either my strongest or second-strongest townread to instead be the recipient of the ability. I kept asking them about things to this end to try and see if it was viable to target them.

It turned out eventually that it was, so there was no need to make that artificial adjustment to my readslist and bump Nico Robin down a level, but this was what I was going for. Basically, to make it unambiguously clear she was a HARD townread (every instance of our iso says as much)...
...But to also place her in a position where people wouldn't wonder why I didn't target HER with the negative utility. Because doing so would place me in a position where there was no good answer except outing "Because I couldn't target her" which would by proxy lead people to wonder WHY I couldn't target her and thus expose...that we are fucking masons.

Not a hard train of logic to follow and it's right fucking there in the thread for all to see.

[mastina]

4) My role while neg utilty seems to directly counter what Mastina is doing.

Your neg utility role counters her neg utility role... you would have had a MUCH better time trying to ship those roles as town synergy. Lol.

Also as a continued point. Mathblade--and Wisdom before him--have continued to refuse to claim the role. They've both said "We've claimed it! We're a negative utility role, which counters/is similar to mastina's, and using it we can help do somethingoranother".

That's not a fucking claim.

That's a description.

A (partially redacted) fullclaim of my role?

Formatting of what a Fullclaim is

Sudowoodo, Town (redacted because this part has not been fullclaimed) Mason.
Description of my redacted abilities.
One of my redacted abilities is how I have the ability,

Formatting of Sub-ability

Day One - Twin Trap Mafia (the flavorname of the ability)
1-x Compulsive Track/Watch-Immune D1 Distributor (the name of the ability)
I am required to hand out a track/watch-immunity to a player by the end of D1; if I don't select a target, it'll be randomized for me. I can't target NicoRobin.

In addition to those abilities, I am a mason with NicoRobin.
We have a private topic, named "Mini 2006: MASON PT".

The formatting doesn't have to be exactly like that.
But that's what I'd expect.

Now here's me attempting to use the same formatting, off of what OnTheMark/Wisdom have provided previously.

Their "Claim"

mastina, ????????? (never specified)
????????????
I have a negative utility. It can ensure protections succeed. It is similar/a counter to mastina's negative utility.
(Maybe a few other scattered details here and there.)
???????????

Do you notice a difference?

I sure as hell do.

[mastina]

Also, point of fact.

As town, the most memetic thing about me is the mason gambit. I would not say that's the most notable aspect of my townplay, but it is the most READILY KNOWN facet of my townplay. I am known for mason gambits. Momrangal, who is flavored as mastina, is a Mason Cop. This makes sense.

As scum, the most memetic thing about my scumplay is my perception of being a strong scum player and having a strong ability to fuck with the town. Regardless of your opinion on the accuracy of that, this is more or less a fair assessment of it, yes? What kind of ability would you wager that this scumastina would be given? I would bet it'd be something that'd fuck with the town--something anti-town...and yet. If Cheet did his research. It would be something anti-town, pro-scum, but still be claimable because scumastina doesn't lie and thus a role crafted on her scumplay would be such that scum would be able to claim it if they so chose.

Wisdom, now OnTheMark, has an ability which is negative utility, anti-town, and yet which they have been vague about, hesitant to fullclaim.

I think you can see where I'm going with this, yes?

Wisdom (now OnTheMark) has scum flavor for scumastina; Momrangal has town flavor for town mastina. I would know, because I being mastina. Know what sorts of things I'm likely to be flavored off of. Does flavor correlate to alignment? Not necessarily, I readily admit. But it's a damn-good augmentation to the already-existing evidence.

[mastina]

If the game is unwinnable for scum with the current set of assumptions/setup spec it has to be wrong.

The thing is, assuming the four masons are all town is NOT the assumption players are likely to default to. The only reason players

have

is because Nico Robin is transparently town, I am transparently not gambiting and have an established meta in spite of my reputation for mason gambits of NOT fakeclaiming as scum, beeboy is transparently town, and Lovebird is transparently town even without the probability that Lovebird is just the alt of a certain player that is tremendously bad at scumplay and hilariously obviously town when town. (If Lovebird is said player. Then Lovebird goes from high-probability town to absolute-certainty town.)

The only reasons the masons are being treated as masons is because they have townplay to back it up in addition to established breadcrumbs which heavily hinted at their mason nature before claiming masons. As a reviewer. You balance off of the assumptions of how players will perceive the roles. Not off of the assumptions of what's optimal. As a reviewer. You balance off the assumption that masons counterclaiming one another can and very well might lead to one if not two mason lynches.

Because it takes PERFECT TOWNPLAY for two sets of masons to not have exactly that happen. It takes PERFECTLY READING THE SITUATION AS ALL FOUR BEING GENUINE MASONS for the town to be given that advantage.

FURTHERMORE

. Onto the next part. Four conftown in the game does NOT, in of itself, grant victory. Scum get three nightkills before the earliest lylo, assuming no extra kills happen or no kills are stopped. (Both of which are possible, but LET'S ASSUME one lynch happens per day and one lynch happens at night.)

That means if a mason dies each night with a mislynch each day, you go into 7p lylo with one conftown and six possible scum--fair odds for the scum.

One scum dead?

Then you get to 5p lylo with the fourth mason nightkilled and thus zero conftown--everyone alive possible scum; I'd say that's fair odds for the scum!

Yet alone 3p lylo; that's at minimum two extra nightkills to spare. The scum by this point have had six nightkills to kill four masons, giving them the chance to leave masons alive twice to hunt roles which are more important than masons to kill, and STILL come out with zero conftown in the resulting lylo.

And FURTHERMORE.

Four conftown in a mini?

That's about statistically normal.

You make it out to be some freak of nature. Something which Jingle couldn't possibly pass--on the contrary, Jingle's one of the few reviewers smart enough to know the math behind that and why four conftown is

precisely

the right number to have in a mini in that four conftown is about the amount you get in more typical minis. Say you have a mini with a cop, a doctor, a throwaway third role, and a scum roleblocker. The expected value for a setup like that would be somewhere in the range of 3-4 conftown on average. The setup I propose might not be the best example and I can pull up past mini normals to give better ones, but the point I am making holds regardless.

Your point is wrong on every level and if you were town you would fucking know it was wrong on every level because you've played enough games to know literally everything I'm saying here holds true.

[mastina]

Also I'm at the point where I'm almost willing to just throw up my hands in exasperation and in spite of how I am desperately bad at wording things.
Try to lay out.
Exactly the process.
By which Momrangal is all-but-conftown by virtue of being a Mason Cop, AND, why her being a mason cop is proof that there's four masons not two in the game.

The two mutually build off of one another here.

To give a basic version.
From the omnipotent point of the mod. Momrangal's role as a Mason Cop perfectly fits into the setup as a town role which has the perfect synergy with the four town masons...
...
...Yet this is from the omnipotent viewpoint. The perspective of the person who knows everything. When you know everything about the setup, Momrangal's role helps to hold it together, to glue it into one coherent piece which is sensible and practical and beautiful. It gives an aesthetical value which is just gorgeous setup design...but only with the benefit of either hindsight or perfect knowledge.

Given IMPERFECT KNOWLEDGE. Given the KNOWLEDGE OF PLAYERS IN THE GAME. The role of a Mason Cop feels like a scum role--it informs the scum that there are masons in the game, and serves as a bit of a nerfed rolecop in that it searches for masons, allowing them to more readily locate and kill the masons. This is what most players will assume when they see a claim of mason cop. And thus, most players will assume it is a scum role.

And that's part of what balances the role and makes it not overwhelmingly gamebreaking for the town--Momrangal is never cleared by role; Momrangal is only cleared by setup speculation if you get the setup speculation dead on the money. In all other cases, Momrangal is likely to not only be seen as suspicious as role but have amateur setup speccers who are incompetent at setup speccing assume that her role can only make sense as scum.

In short, Momrangal gives the town glue, which holds everything together and makes everything make sense...but the only way to know this is to be the moderator or reviewer or in postgame. And without being one of those, from the viewpoint of a player, she not only isn't cleared but looks suspicious. Making her an easy mislynch, and therefore weakening the strength of her role and impact on the game.

And yes.

This is the fucking short version.

Because I could write a fucking essay here on why I feel the way I do about all of Momrangal/beeboy/Lovebird being town in spite of me knowing I am a mason with NicoRobin because there is a certain beauty to it which I recognize as something Jingle would approve of with flying colors--an elegance to it which is immediately obvious in postgame but which isn't readily apparent during the game.

And the only reason that I see it is because I have extensive experience working with this exact mechanic and have seen Jingle react almost this exact way--the way I am doing things here is basically what Jingle did in Iambic Tetrameter. He realized that his role of PT Enabler fit with the town Neighborizer, the PT cop, and the Masons and in spite of the conflict between those roles, he recognized that they were all beautiful in the same sense I am describing here: roles which from the PLAYER PERSPECTIVE conflicted, but from the PERFECT VIEW OF THE MODERATOR had synergy with the balance in the game coming from a merger, midway point, of the two, more or less.

[mastina]

...AND THIS IS WHY.
Continuing to shade the masons.
Comes from scum.

Continuing to doubtcast the masons.
Comes from scum.

Continuing to wagon Momrangal.
Comes from scum.

When you pair 3415 with 3414, with hints of 3409, the design of this game becomes readily apparent. We were not meant to put two and two together, but by putting two and two together, scum are placed in a tight spot. We have five players who, by all rights, should be considered conftown on the merits of the game being designed around those five players.

I know that sounds presumptuous. This being a UPick and all and with me as one of said players. But it's true--we have ten roles total, sure, yeah. But the backbone of the town's strength comes not in the five unknowns (well, five semi-unknowns at the very least given that at least one of Cheeky/Pine is gonna be town and the significant chance momomen are town), but rather, from the five known players.

I HAVE MORE PROOF FOR MY THEORY/SETUP SPEC AS WELL.
Which ties into the theory I mentioned previously. I said that I had a theory which I cannot prove on D1, but by D2 I can have a definitive answer for--and that regardless of whether I get a definitive answer or not, I'll be claiming tomorrow in part to share my theory (and because if my theory is correct, I would have damn good reasons to fullclaim).

This theory, Yume knows. And it's actually one of the reasons why Yume wants to die, because she agrees with my theory.

I will not share this theory today, just as I will not fullclaim today. But I will say that if my theory is correct, then the game has a built-in self-balance mechanism: the town has incentive to not want the masons alive in spite of them being conftown; the scum might have incentive to keep the masons alive in spite of them being conftown. The specifics beyond this, I'm not willing to share but if my theory is correct.

And I have good reason to believe it is.

Everything in the setup that we know makes perfect sense.

The town has some significant strength to it--balanced out by both built-in doubt to said strength AND the negative utilities flying around this game. After all. LLD has a sticky vote (negative utility), Momomen if lynched doesn't flip (negative utility), beeboy is a Godfather (negative utility), I am a compulsive ninja-maker (negative utility), and Wisdom/OnTheMark have a vague unspecific negative utility. I'm probably missing one or two, too. But you get my point--we can't all be scum, which means at least some of those if not most of those negative utilities are TOWN negative utilities.

[mastina]

My modifier is enabler, and I enable her role.

THAT IS NOT SOMETHING I WANTED YOU TO CLAIM DAMMIT.

Okay so continuing the trend of full disclosure.

With this outed.

I am

still

not fullclaimed, albeit I am much closer to being fullclaimed. That gives us this.

Formatting of what a Fullclaim is

Sudowoodo, Town

Enabled

(redacted because this part has not been fullclaimed) Mason.
Description of my redacted abilities.
One of my redacted abilities is how I have the ability,

Formatting of Sub-ability

Day One - Twin Trap Mafia (the flavorname of the ability)
1-x Compulsive Track/Watch-Immune D1 Distributor (the name of the ability)
I am required to hand out a track/watch-immunity to a player by the end of D1; if I don't select a target, it'll be randomized for me. I can't target NicoRobin.

In addition to those abilities, I am a mason with NicoRobin.

NicoRobin enables all of my abilities.

We have a private topic, named "Mini 2006: MASON PT".

Bolded are the new parts which were previously absent from my claim.

Soyes.

I am STILL not fullclaimed.

And I STILL intend not to fullclaim today, and STILL intend to fullclaim tomorrow.

BUT.

I will say that Nico wants to die because she believes her enabling me is not a good thing for the town. A sentiment which may or may not be right, but at the very least the idea holds merit. This should help to explain QUITE a lot of our play.

And yes. Still masons. We are not gambitting, with us being neighbors and her enabling me being why we claimed masons. We are MASONS. Conftown to one another. Confirmed by the mod, explicitly, to be so. In our role title, and via him answering us when Yume asked. Conftown to one another. Not confirmed same alignment, even. CONFTOWN. Those exact words.

[mastina]

Pls don't go

[mastina]

Mathdino replaces in for CheekyTeeky.

Oh hey Mathdino!

So you're a mechanics-based player, right?

Well I've got a treat for you.

In addition to my recent posting.

I actually developed a mechanical way which if beeboy/Lovebird are legit masons would give us

mod-confirmed four town on D1

.
But nobody listened to my plan in spite of everyone staunchly refusing to take a crack at finding any flaws in my proposed plan.

So why don't you have a look and give your thoughts?

Because I'm still pretty damn sure this works!

Again if you’re town it’s legalese and splitting hairs

WHICH IS MY FUCKING SPECIALTY.
THIS IS HOW I FUCKING BREAK GAMES.

I learned from Nachomamma. (Well actually I picked it up on my own and it just so happens to be something Nacho was known for, but since I did learn from Nacho I like to say that I learned it from him. )

I don't break games with the big stuff.

I break games with the fucking details.

With the nuances.

With bombarding the moderator with questions the mod did not have the foresight to fully see.

Yes, the mod generally has an emergency self-defense mechanism against my question bombardment.

But I can, have, and DO fucking win games by doing this. (As both alignments, to be fair, but NORMALLY as town.)

Cheetory's response to questions gave me a golden opportunity.
If he had taken a different stance this game then I wouldn't have been given that opportunity--but because he used the rules he is using in regards to answering questions.

I have what is, genuinely, a gamebreaking plan which can and WILL generate absolute conftown without a flip on D1.

A type of exploitation of mod error which isn't true mod error so much as mod oversight in not thinking through the consequences of his answers or lack thereof.

So again.

Let me quote the plan once more.

Mod could scum be masons?

The answer to this is no. Nico actually asked this right off the bat in our mason PT. Was one of the first things she did. Thought it was pretty dumb to do because of course masons are town in a non-bastard game it is literally written into the wiki for masons to be conftown to one another, but she asked it anyway as one of her quirks and Cheet did answer, so.

Absolutely, masons are conftown. They cannot be scum.

To be a little more explicit.

Nico's exact question to Cheetory was if we are explicitly confirmed town to one another; Cheet answered that yes, we are. (Actually it was just 'yes'.)

If beeboy and Lovebird are genuinely masons, they can ask that same question to Cheetory and get that same answer.

To further confirm we are masons.

Say beeboy and Lovebird come back and confirm this is the answer Cheetory gives to the question, "Are we explicitly conftown to one another?". That Cheetory answers 'yes' to it.

Okay then.
Try asking the mod, "Hypothetically, if I were a mason with another player, would we be conftown to one another?"
If Cheetory refuses to answer that question.

In spite of answering it for Nico and I.
And beeboy/Lovebird (assuming they can even produce this confirmation in the first place).
Then he is by proxy confirming we cannot have this information as scum.

And yes I know I am backing Cheetory into a corner; that's what I fucking do.

Cheetory has two choices here.
He can keep modding his game consistently, deny the answers to the non-masons, give them to the second pair of masons, and indirectly confirm by this process we are conftown.
Or he can break consistent modding practice by giving answers to the non-masons...which, by proxy of him needing to answer the same. Ends up indirectly confirming by that process we are conftown.

I might not be wording this the best way, but basically.

-Cheetory has, publicly, denied to answer the question of if masons are conftown to one another.
-Cheetory has, privately to Nico Robin and I, confirmed that we are explicitly conftown to one another.
-If beeboy and Lovebird are genuinely masons, Cheetory cannot justify giving one set of masons one answer and then giving a different set of masons a different answer; this is setting his game up for self-destruction, and thus, he is forced to give them the same answer to maintain consistent modding practice.
-However, Cheetory DOES have a choice: between privately confirming to players that masons are explicitly confirmed to one another, or privately denying to answer players asking if masons are explicitly confirmed to one another.
*If Cheetory chooses to privately confirm that masons are explicitly confirmed to one another, then while the option of scum fakeclaiming remains theoretically possible, we have confirmed that there's no fucking thing as "One half of the masonry is town, the other half is scum". This allows us to know that the only possibilities are both-town or both-scum.
*If Cheetory chooses to privately decline to answer if masons are explicitly confirmed to one another, then it confirms that Nico Robin, myself, beeboy, and Lovebird

somehow

obtained information unavailable to others; four names having it means we can't be a scumteam, either. This confirms beyond any shadow of a doubt that we are conftown.

Of course. This plan doesn't work if beeboy and Lovebird aren't actually masons and thus can't get the information Nico and I got, buuuuuuut. I'd take that smugly too as an "I fucking told you so that we were masons".

To reiterate.

beeboy and Lovebird, you need to ask Cheetory IN YOUR MASON PT if you are explicitly conftown to one another.
Everyone who is not a mason, you need to ask Cheetory IN PRIVATE, "Hypothetically, if I were a mason with another player, would we be explicitly conftown to one another?"

No matter how Cheetory responds, if everyone follows this process, we will end up confirming information about masons.

That beeboy and Lovebird are fucking liars (just town ones at that) if they can't produce this confirmation, that masons can't be town-scum if Cheetory answers in private, or that all four of mastina/Nico/beeboy/Lovebird have information unavailable even by asking the mod and thus it pertains to their roles and thus they are actually masons.

No matter which option we come out as having. You end up with conftown that are, truly, even without flips, conftown.

All you have to do is ask the right question to the mod.

Either find a flaw in this plan, or fucking follow it.

Because I am 100% confident this tells you the truth of the game if followed through.

Can also help to see the process here:

This seemed like a good place to once more run through what I am getting at, with all the relevant information.

-

FACT: Momrangal has claimed Mason Cop, getting results in the form of "Mason" or "Not Mason".

This is indisputable.
It is generally agreed that this is not a fakeclaim. Those who think Momrangal think it's her real role, just claimed as scum; those who think her town think it's her real role. Does everyone agree so far? Okay then! From this, we can go further with an additional inference.

-

Inferred Fact: If there is a Mason Cop in the game, then it is likely there is

at least

one set of actual masons. Possibly two.

So you follow with this, right? You might have thoughts on it, that it's possible to exist without masons as a red herring role, or that the possibility of two mason sets is slim, but you follow with the statement as worded, yes? Likely (even if not definitively) at least one set of masons (maybe two).

Alright, good with that?

I'd love to spend extra time on why I feel a mason cop increases the odds of four masons in the game (namely because it gives the mason cop more people to get results on), but if I did that I'd be taking away from the point of my argument, so let's keep on going.

-

FACT: Nico Robin and mastina are claimed masons together; beeboy and Lovebird are claimed masons together.

This is indisputable.

-

Inferred Fact: Given our prior inferred fact of the mason cop, it can then be assumed at least one (possibly both) sets of claims is thus true.

Thus, it can be inferred that AT LEAST one set of beeboy/Lovebird and Nico Robin/mastina are masons, with the possibility both are.

-

FACT: Cheetory has declined to answer if masons would be explicitly conftown to one another publicly.

This is indisputable.

-

FACT: Nico Robin and mastina are claiming that when Nico Robin asked Cheetory if they were explicitly conftown to one another, Cheetory answered "yes".

This is indisputable.

And here's where the critical step is.
-

Inferred Fact: Nico Robin and I are claiming information not available by asking publicly. The only possibility is thus that we obtained this information over a private channel. The possible channels are PM/mafia PT/mason PT.

-

Inferred Fact Followthrough: Mafia PTs function identically for all intents and purposes to PMs; an answer available by PM is available in the mafia PT, and vice-versa.

-

Inferred Fact2: If beeboy and Lovebird are actually masons, they should get the same answer because Cheetory won't treat two mason pairs differently from one another.

-

Inferred Fact2 followthrough: If beeboy and Lovebird cannot produce the same answer, then you have a confirmed liar pair in the set of beeboy/Lovebird and Nico Robin/mastina; if beeboy and Lovebird can produce the same answer, then you have confirmation of the answer's accuracy.

And from here, I shouldn't need to hold your hand as I walk you through it. But I will anyway.

-

Inferred Facts Followthroughs' Inferred Fact: By asking Cheetory via PM, "Hypothetically, if I were a mason with a player, would we be conftown to one another?", you can test whether mafia can get access to this information. If Cheetory declines to answer, then mafia cannot access the information; if Cheetory does answer, then mafia can access information.

-

Inferred Facts Followthroughs' Inferred Fact Followthrough: If Cheetory confirms that masons are explicitly conftown to one another, then you know AT LEAST one set of beeboy/Lovebird and mastina/Nico Robin is town; you also know that mastina and Nico Robin were being truthful about the information they shared.

And therein lies the critical part.

Because we know there are masons in the game.
And we know that EITHER: masons are conftown to one another (Cheet answers in private) OR: mastina/Nico Robin have an answer unavailable to the public which beeboy/Lovebird EITHER: vouch for, OR: deny.

The possibilities you end up with are based on that.
-Masons are conftown; masons are in the game; you have AT LEAST one set of conftown in beeboy/Lovebird and Nico Robin/mastina.
-Masons aren't publicly known to be conftown; beeboy/Lovebird are liars by claiming to be masons and not having the answer and Nico Robin/mastina are truthfully masons.
-Masons aren't publicly known to be conftown; beeboy/Lovebird don't have a way to confirm this and Nico Robin/mastina are lying about that information for...some reason...because lying about mod communication gives them some sort of...mystical voodoo advantage of some sort. (I really don't get this one so if you believe it, you're gonna have some explainin' to do.)
-Masons aren't publicly known to be conftown; beeboy/Lovebird vouch for Nico Robin/mastina's claim that they are, and thus, this confirms all four as town.

I already know that it isn't #3.

So no matter what. You end up with knowing that there are conftown. Off of the setup information we have available to us today.

Through a combination of roleclaims and Cheetory's stances on answering questions.
We get conftown we otherwise wouldn't get.

Point out where this process is wrong.

Because my logic? It fucking holds. Because it is based off of FACTS. With the LOGICAL INFERENCES GIVEN THOSE FACTS.
Unless you want to argue that my inferences are wrong, then be my guest and fucking DO SO. I'd like to see you try.

If I were scum, couldn't I just say "yes" anyways? Don't get how it confirms anything.

Why yes, yes you can!

But by answering yes, you are confirming the information we claimed is accurate.

And by confirming the information we claimed is accurate.

You are confirming us as town.

Because IF SCUM CANNOT GET AN ANSWER TO THE QUESTION. (Something WHICH CAN BE CHECKED BY NON-MASONS ASKING THE SPECIFIC HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION I GAVE.)
And WE GOT THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION.
Then that means we can't be scum.

So your alignment doesn't matter. You saying 'yes' means Nico Robin and I are conftown, so long as the moderator privately declines to answer.

The full list of options here, to reiterate.
-Cheetory, privately, confirms that hypothetical masons are conftown. Given this, Nico Robin and I could access this information as scum...but because we know that there are masons in the game, we know off of Cheetory's answers that the masons are town thanks to his answer; there cannot be scum masons.

-Cheetory, privately, declines to answer if hypothetical masons are conftown. Given this, Nico Robin and I cannot access this information as scum. We then subdivide.
*beeboy/Lovebird deny the information, claiming they cannot get the answer we got from Cheetory. Given this, you know there is a liar between the mason pairs. Subdividing further.
~Nico/mastina are bullshitting; they made the whole thing up, with beeboy/Lovebird's as the truthful version. (In which you need to explain why this FLAGRANT violation of occam's razor makes so much as ONE iota of sense.)
~beeboy/Lovebird are lying; Nico/mastina are telling the truth and masons are conftown.
*beeboy/Lovebird confirm the information, vouching for Nico Robin and mastina's story. We then subdivide.
~If beeboy/Lovebird are masons, then they are town. Nico Robin and mastina also have access to the information; given this, when the information is unavailable to scum, mastina and Nico Robin are conftown and beeboy/Lovebird have a fair chance of being conftown.
~If beeboy/Lovebird aren't masons, then they may or may not be town. However, because they are vouching for Nico Robin and mastina, they are claiming that Nico Robin and mastina's information is accurate. Given this, with the information unavailable to scum and the game being unable to have four scum in it, mastina and Nico Robin are conftown.

No matter what, we come out ahead.

If people actually fucking follow the plan.

There's zero downsides to this.
The town always comes out ahead here.

I mean Mastina, the thing about Cheetory not answering questions publically or privately doesn't apply to scum.

Yes it does.
Scum don't magically have more access to information on how roles-not-their-own-or-in-their-fakeclaims work.

If they did, that's poor fucking modding.

You know why?

Because it is mod bias in favor of scum.

Mods are meant to be impartial.

Scum should not have access to information on roles other than their own/safeclaims unless town has access to that very same information.

So unless you wanna argue that the mod handed Nico and I a mason safeclaim.
Or that Cheet is a bad mod who biased the setup in favor of scum by allowing scum to basically have a free rolecop just by asking questions to him. (Because that's EXACTLY what giving answers to scum not available to town is.)

My point holds.

I mean Mastina, the thing about Cheetory not answering questions publically or privately doesn't apply to scum.

Yes it does.
Scum don't magically have more access to information on how roles-not-their-own-or-in-their-fakeclaims work.

If they did, that's poor fucking modding.

You know why?

Because it is mod bias in favor of scum.

Mods are meant to be impartial.

Scum should not have access to information on roles other than their own/safeclaims unless town has access to that very same information.

So unless you wanna argue that the mod handed Nico and I a mason safeclaim.
Or that Cheet is a bad mod who biased the setup in favor of scum by allowing scum to basically have a free rolecop just by asking questions to him. (Because that's EXACTLY what giving answers to scum not available to town is.)

My point holds.

Another way of saying it.

If the mod answers scum asking about information on their own role, that's fine; that is to be expected.
If the mod answers town asking about information on their own role, that's fine; that is to be expected.
If the mod answers scum asking about information on their mod-provided safeclaims, that's fine; that is to be expected.

If the mod refuses to answer town about information on a role which isn't their own on the merits that it isn't their role, then that is their preference as a moderator and a valid choice.

Okay, good so far, yes?
You agree?
You follow.

Alright.

So what's the logical extension of this?

If the mod refuses to answer scum about information on a role which isn't their own and isn't one of their safeclaims, then that is the extension of the town decision.

Consistent moderation, unbiased. Scum can't access something town cannot, unless the information is given in the scum's roles or the scum's fakeclaims. Fair, balanced, even, both sides denied the same thing and being given the same thing.

If Cheetory gave answers to scum about information on a role which was NEITHER their own NOR one of their safeclaims...
...While refusing to give answers to town about information on a role which isn't their own...

...Does that sound unbiased to you?

Fuck no, because it's not; it's biased in favor of scum.
Plain and simple.
There's no ambiguity here.

Just simple facts.

I know that's a lot of reading, and you hate reading my posts especially since they are mastina posts.

But you can make an exception here because.

Mathdino.

In these posts

I outline precisely how to break the game open using mechanics

, which are your forte.

[mastina]

@nicorobin: yeah except mastina is lying because she's mastina

Except no I fucking don't lie.

I deceive as town, sure. But I know what deceptions are smart townplay and what are just fucking stupid. I exaggerate as town, sure, but I know when to level with the town. I switch things as town, sure, but I know when to reveal this gambit. Fuck, I wrote a whole fucking article on it; you'd know since you read my MD stuff. It's called Risk-Reward Analysis. (The link to the original MD article needs fixing since it links to the MD article above it, but oh well. Wiki version's probably more up to date anyway.)

The reward from fakeclaiming here is zilch. I gain nothing here. The risk is tremendous. Namely that it leads to a shithole. I'm not fucking stupid. I know when not to pull gambits just as much as I know when to pull gambits. This is NOT a game to gambit in. I do have the minor information held back--I was holding back that NicoRobin enabled me and I am holding back the exact nature of my abilities in spite of claiming that one of my abilities generates a negative utility.

But even there that's calculated. There is zero reward to me revealing what I'm holding back; in contrast, there is a rather significant risk to revealing it.

And the whole time, my play has been governed by that.

There was zero risk in claiming my negative utility. There was great reward because I could croudsource targets, allowing for me to give the option least-damaging for said negative utility, making it the most pro-town as possible. Given that Momomen are confirmed to be Loud, and that their Loudness does not get overriden by my ability, by claiming it I was able to select the optimal target: them.

There was incredible risk and moderate reward in Yume messaging AliPine. I frowned upon it greatly because it was not an action I approved of; the risk was too high for what would only be a moderate reward. In contrast, when I messaged Momomen, there was limited risk and the potential for huge reward since at the time we were not outed as masons.

I was not the one who outed us as masons. That would be AliPine. It was an action I wouldn't have approved of, because there was incredible risk and zero reward to it, but since it was out of my hands, it wasn't something I could do anything about.

I was not the one who outed that I am enabled. That action had incredible risk and moderate reward.

You can notice a stark contrast between actions I take, and actions others take that impact me. Including those of NicoRobin.

When I take an action. It is a calculated risk, meant to optimize reward. Hinting at my theory is a case where there is moderate risk but incredible reward, for instance--a little bit gutsy, but if I'm right, the payoff is huge and overall it's acceptable. Fullclaiming on the other hand would be incredible risk for no reward; not something I'd endorse on D1, but on D2 I am anticipating the equation changing such that the rewards significantly outweigh the risks.

The mason gambit is also a calculated risk. In normal gamestates, it would be an action I'd deem usually low-risk, with the reward being anywhere from moderate to incredible...

...But

in

this

specific gamestate

. The mason gambit has high risk, zilch reward. It gives nothing because Yume and I have roles where we don't really WANT to claim mason. It takes away because of the other claims out there. Mason Cop? If we were fakeclaiming and said mason cop targeted us...LOL WHOOPS. Other mason claims? LOL WHOOPS WE GOT COUNTERCLAIMED.

You see what I mean.

This gamestate, sticking to a mason gambit would be high risk, zero reward.

But we're sticking to our claims...because that's our actual fucking roles. We CAN'T lie and say "lol just gambiting".
Both because that'd be a lie since we fucking ARE masons.

But ALSO because lying about not being masons when we are?

Somewhere between moderate to incredible risk (let's say high), somewhere between zero and moderate (let's say low) reward.

We.
Are.
Masons.

And I don't fucking lie like this.

That is people's perception of me.
Not the reality of me.

so mastina and nicorobin are obviously lying regardless of card right?

This is a fair assessment of OnTheMark's viewpoint, yes.

It is also self-evidently...well, evidence for why he's scum.

[mastina]

someone better have an awesome explanation for why this day has, on page 131, been reduced to setup speccing and attempting to mechanically solve a upick role madness game.

Because over half the game has partially claimed their roles and we are trying to make optimal usage of the information available to us.

Also because shading the masons has been a thing the scum have been doing quite consistently and it makes good evidence for why they are scum.

[mastina]

HOW HARD IS IT TO CLAIM YOUR FLAVOUR HOLY SHIT

HOW HARD IS IT TO READ THE FUCKING THREAD TO REALIZE WE HAVE CLAIMED OUR FLAVOR TEN TIMES (THAT NUMBER IS NOT AN EXAGGERATION) ALREADY HOLY SHIT

...

*looks at pagecount*

...Oh.



Butyeah.

We have claimed our flavor. No fucking joke. Ten times already. Ten fucking times. Not kidding. I didn't bother pulling the exact number up. But between Yume claiming it. Me claiming it. And others exasperated at this question pointing out we did so already. It's at least ten times.

The full list of claims and flavor thusfar is:
beeboy,

Godfather

. May have claimed flavor but if so I don't remember.

Masons with Lovebird

.

Maintains both halves of claim as true: Godfather-Mason.

Mathdino/CheekyTeeky,

beeboy, (Odd/Even)-Inventor

. Inventions unspecified other than that they are positive utility.
Momrangal,

mastina, Mason Cop

. Gets results of "Mason"/"Not Mason".
OnTheMark/Wisdom,

mastina, ?????

. (Role title unclaimed.)

Some vaguely specified negative utility inventor

.
Lovebird,

Mason with beeboy

. Flavor unclaimed; role details also unclaimed.
Lady Lambdadelta,

Sticky voter

. Flavor unclaimed; any additional abilities unclaimed.
NicoRobin, Alisae,

Mason Enabler

. Mason with mastina; enables mastina's abilities.
mastina, Sudowoodo (Alisae/Pine hydra),

Enabled (something unclaimed) Mason

. Mason with NicoRobin; abilities enabled by NicoRobin.

One of unclaimed abilities is a D1 1x Compulsive Track/Watch-Immune Inventor

, flavored as D1 of Twin Trap.
Pine/Sudowoodo [Hydra of Alisae & Pine],

beeboy, (Even/Odd)-Inventor

. Inventions unspecified other than that they match CheekyTeeky/Mathdino.
MOMOMEN [Hydra of Eddie Cane & Killthestory],

Eddie Cane, Self-Janitoring(Flipless) Loud (probably more unclaimed)

. mastina has explicitly confirmed that their Loud ability exists as advertised.

Not_Mafia/RedFlavor, ????, ????, sent something to LLD off of the suspicion they're similar roles and LLD says "that buys the slot a day", but that's all we know.

COMPLETE AND TOTAL UNKNOWNS: MariaR, Kokichi Oma

That's probably the most accurate.

[mastina]

COMPLETE AND TOTAL UNKNOWNS: MariaR, Kokichi Oma

MIGHT I POINT OUT.
THESE TWO HAVE BEEN TWO OF THE MOST CONSISTENT SCUMSPECTS IN THE ENTIRE GAME RIGHT BEHIND WISDOM/MATHBLADE.

AND YET IN SPITE OF THAT.

THEY ARE THE TWO PLAYERS WHO WE KNOW THE LEAST ABOUT.

WHAT.
THE.
FUCK.

[mastina]

Lol I believe you’d do anything Mastina says if you’re town masons as you know she wouldn’t deceive you.

Nice narrative!

Too bad Yume claimed masons

against my will

because she did so

before I could give my feedback

.

One of the literal first things she did in the game was to message the AliPine hydra that we are masons.

She did that WELL before I posted, and one of the FIRST things I posted was that I knew that it had happened and was quite miffed, quite displeased at it.

It was not a plan endorsed by me.
Yet alone a plan crafted by me.

And the proof is in the game thread.