Mini 609 - The Kingmaker's Revolt - OVER!

[Sethaniel]

Hello yourself, Ythill.

Yeah, I wanted /in this game cause Jenter's modding it.

Hi azim. Look, I'm making contentless posts.

[Sethaniel]

I like your contentful posts, Ythill.

I've played Assassin in the Palace, but never Kingmaker.

[Sethaniel]

1. Am I right to be suspicious of lurkers or contentless players?
2. If there is no majority, should I simply execute the top vote-getter?
3. How should I best display my current thinking on players -- e.g., which way I'm leaning, who I'm considering and who not, etc.? Should my thoughts be on display at all?
4. Anything else you think is relevant. Please don't be shy.

1. Yes. I just finished a game where lurking scum won, in part because the townies had a lot more content on each other to analyze and find fault with.

2. No. I think that strategy will allow scum to avoid responsibility for mislynches.

Have to go, will post on other two topics later.

[Sethaniel]

3. I would say the King needs to post as frequently as possible.

[Sethaniel]

Then ask more questions, Azimuth.

The King posting should inspire the people to post.

Even if the town is only posting in reply to the King's questions, at least they're talking.

@Empking: what do you mean by "on some days it gives the mafia a breather?" Do you mean if a mafia King is named? Don't you think the town will notice if the King leads discussion toward/away from certain topics?

[Sethaniel]

Are you just not paying attention, empking?

This day will las a minmum of two weeks no matter what, altough if requested by the players and backed up by sufficient activity the deadline may be extended up to a maximum of another week.

The King may change his mind as many times as he or she likes before the deadline hits.

[Sethaniel]

I'm not saying it's all on the king and we should kill him if he picks a townie.

I'm saying that if your claim is true, that people are only posting in response to the king's questions, then the king should ask more questions.

more posting is better for the town. if the way to get that is for the king to ask questions, then that's what we should do.

when you say "king dominating conversation," to my mind that would be if the king were simply making lengthy posts explaining who he suspected --

open-ended questions don't dominate a conversation.

I think there's a big difference between saying "the king should make the cases against people" and "the king should ask questions to stimulate discussion"

[Sethaniel]

Azim, I don't understand where you're getting the idea that I think the town should automatically push for a King's death if he kills a townie.

[Sethaniel]

All right, I'm here. (Bad situation at work right now. Not an excuse, just an explanation.)

First- I take exception with the idea that I am being "willfully unhelpful." I have a point of view and I am defending it.

Azim keeps trying to make it seem like I'm saying that we should lynch the King if he kills a townie, or that all the responsibility for scumhunting today rests with the King.

The King has a responsibility to post. I believe that, and I will not stop saying so.

Azim, what purpose would be served by the King's refusal to talk to the town?

For example, no one but you has talked about my "unhelpfulness." (Other than Ythill in reply to your posts.)

If the town spent the day discussing "Empking, Phoebus or Pra?" without Azim's input, and then Azim killed Seth- how does that help the town on Day 2?

FoS Empking

:

The more I think about it, the more I think you should suicide.

Are you serious? How could that help the town?



(Also,

FoS Gimbo

for saying that Ythill's posts were a bunch of nothingness.)

[Sethaniel]

Should my thoughts be on display at all?

is specifically the part I was referring to with this quote.

Azim, what purpose would be served by the King's refusal to talk to the town?

don't have much time to talk today

[Sethaniel]

I think Empking's notion that my "way" encourages the death of power roles is bogus. To wit:

Empking wrote:
The king has two suspects. A is a cop, B is a townie. The king puts the order in to kill A. On the 13th day A claims and we save the cop.
The king has two suspects. A is a cop, B is a townie. On the 14th day the king puts the kill onto A. A dies we loose the cop.

I thought that, too, when I read that empking quote- why does his example have the king choosing between two townies? I mean, best case scenario per Empking is that the King kills a townie instead of a cop.

Regarding Phoebus- wasn't he the one who first mentioned the idea of the king "putting a blade against each person's neck and ask why he ought not be killed?" I do think it's a little strange that when King Azimuth has Seth topping his Execution List for being "willfully unhelpful," that Phoebus would pointedly refuse to answer questions.

As to the whole Zoneace and Phoebus comments on D1 lynches- I've seen a couple of people mislynched by cases that started with their comment that the D1 lynch was likely to hit a townie.

[Sethaniel]

Its more likely that we get a power role and a vanilla rather than two power roles.
I don't think we can replace Pra.

You're missing the point. Why does your example have two townies? Why no scum?

Why would him suiciding be good?
I don't know what about if he's mafia. That might be an idea isn't it.

Are you saying you think Azim is mafia?

Anyway, even if he were, why would he kill himself? Whether the King is pro-town or anti-town, there's no good reason for him to suicide.

@mne: why me in particular?

Sorry, niece and nephew visit. Can't write with them constantly asking me who Azimuth is and why he's smiling. . .

[Sethaniel]

If he was innocent he could've chose to suicide to give us the information that he was innocent.

How that would have been good for the town? Why are you still defending this idea?

@everyone: am I overreacting? do you find anything suspicious about empking's suicide suggestion?

@empking: You thought Azim was mafia? Why?

[Sethaniel]

Not much time to talk today, but re: zoneace

His stated position is:

Day 1 lynches in this game are just like they are in any other game, a glorious cluster fuck of infolessness.

[Sethaniel]

EBWOP

which looks like he doesn't care what gets decided D1, and plans wait on forming an opinion till after we see who Azim kills and who gets NKd.

Which isn't very helpful to the town at all.

Considering our King's stated position on "willful unhelpfulness" it's not a very smart idea.

in fact, I'll

vote: ZONEACE

for what it's worth.

[Sethaniel]

@Ythill: my partner (Corinthian) is playing in a game with Gimbo. Read Mini Normal 608 if you want another example of his playstyle. (If it's okay to mention that. Since we've already meta'd a bit.)

So re: ZONE you're saying that his actions are consistent with his stated beliefs, which aren't, in and of themselves, scummy, they're just not very helpful to the town.

Re: ash

I am asserting that after being pressured as a lurker you started posting more, but not scumhunting more.

If proven, that is suspicious.

@Ythill and Azim off topic: I just got accused of being "cold and unhelpful" in another game. Perhaps that's my new meta.

[Sethaniel]

Gimbo, post #219 is not helpful, and makes you look like frustrated, panicking scum.

[Sethaniel]

@Ythill: well, I'm not voting him because I keep thinking our votes are mostly just FoS. And Gimbo really truly does seem to play like this in every game.

[Sethaniel]

it did remind me a bit of your "ooh, look how often strife mentioned Jim" argument (which I realize is not particularly meaningful or relevant to anyone else).

are you checking if I'm paying attention or something?

[Sethaniel]

Right. As far as I can tell, the king can order as many executions as he likes, but the day won't end until the deadline, and only the most recent execution order will be enacted at that time.

Theres the townies who should have a few more roles knowing this mod

What are you saying, rob? You think there might be power roles among the town?

[Sethaniel]

Are you talking about my question to rob?

It's an unusual comment for him to throw out there. No one else has said anything to imply that there might be power roles other than kingmaker.

Why do you care so much?

[Sethaniel]

I've been stuck at work, I'll be posting something substantial Wednesday morning.

[Sethaniel]

I haven't liked mneme since D1, and I think he's my vote for right now.

I admit, the D1 thing is a bit of OMGUS. But his case on me is a parrot of Azim's argument, which was at least somewhat based on meta. (@Ythill: Azim obviously doesn't share your meta on me.)
Then, why does he single me out to ask opinion? He says it's good to single out individuals, but I'm the only one he picks on. Then he claims to have gotten an "off vibe" from me?

Regarding D1 actions, I feel he's being wishy-washy. He goes back and forth on whether the kingmaker should/can claim, then he argues with Rob:
1. Gimbo needs to die
2. Gimbo is scum and needs to die
2. We've resolved Gimbo needs to die and Rob is scummy for wanting to talk about it
Gimboscum lynched
1. We should have discussed letting Gimbo be modkilled so we could get another lynch out of it
2. Azim is scummy for lynching scum



@Ythill: why the strife case? that was scum vs. a townie. this is either town vs. scum or bussing. initial impression is no, though. most of your strife case that I read was based on interaction with known scum, however. anyway, I don't think I've ever seen you play as town so I can't really meta that well. The strife case had a lot of "kitchen sink" to it at points. (Every time strife said "JimSauce") You're a long poster in general, but your "fake" cases seem to generally have a wall-of-words effect to them.

[Sethaniel]

I -never- said the Kingmaker should claim, nor even hinted as much.

Oh, I'm sorry. You said

exposing the km isn't actually that awful, since while losing a confirmed innocent is a big -, the km dying turns the game into a normal mafia game, which is a big (but harder to quantify) +

You don't want him to claim, necessarily-- you just think it would be good for the town if he died.

[Sethaniel]

@Azim: Yesterday, when you were the king, you thought Emp might be a Jester. Today, now that you don't have the responsibility of killing him, you think he is not?

[Sethaniel]

The only thing anyone has on me is that scum tried to save himself the only way he could. That's not a reason at all.

What about all that scummy behavior D1?

[Sethaniel]

If there were a serial killer, why have we only had one death per night?

The only time I see Emp referring to his own death was in the statement

He's right our claims aren't equal. Though both deaths give us the same amount of information, my claim is very likely to be in the set up. Azimuth's claim isn't likely to be in the set up.

Empking's D1 behavior is consistent with a beloved hero who thinks the king is scum.

Azim's behavior is also consistent with a king who thinks someone is acting like a beloved hero.

Unless someone wants to try and argue that Azim and Emp set everything up ahead of time?

[Sethaniel]

Did this game start with a night phase?

If not, then Azim and Emp wouldn't have had time to set up a plan for D1.

[Sethaniel]

So far, three from DeGhrain and one from Larec are dead, right?

[Sethaniel]

I'm still here.

lulu, are you suspicious of rob specifically for the hammer vote?

[Sethaniel]

I would think two left. Two groups of three makes more sense to me than one group of three and one group of two.

[Sethaniel]

Wow, that was unexpected.

I really would like some sort of case I could respond to, though.

[Sethaniel]

I am very sorry. My grandmother just died and I've been a little busy.

I will place a vote tomorrow morning.

[Sethaniel]

vote: rob

[Sethaniel]

Wow, great game, town!

Rob, I really was torn between you and Zone till you voted me. Given your play up to that point, it just seemed awfully opportunistic of you.

(Once again, Ythill, great game. You definitely have my number.)