Mini 2097 - Make Me Regret This Game Over

[jjh927]

VOTE: Elbirn

[jjh927]

VOTE: Korina

[jjh927]

"My role sucks but you shouldn't lynch me because of my role"?

[jjh927]

Oh also if we're talking picks I got my least ridiculous one

My favourite pick was the Fusion Crew™ Fusion Dome™ because the only research someone could feasibly do is the instruction manual

[jjh927]

jjh, if I vote you will i cause a chain reaction that will ultimately result in one of the legs of the table breaking and us all falling off to our doom?

Highly unlikely

Vote away

[jjh927]

No

[jjh927]

If you sincerely believe you're making it obvious then softing is pointless

[jjh927]

I'm gonna lynch you because you're scum and I don't plan on being obstructed by role bullshit

[jjh927]

Wifi is down
Scumteam probably ddosing me
Must mean I'm on the right track

[jjh927]

Scum equity is a phrase people use to give themselves more artificial legitimacy by sounding all fancy like when talking about people they think could be scum

[jjh927]

Huh I was gonna post before reading the rest of this thread but I'm gonna keep reading now

[jjh927]

Ha funny thing I'm already voting Korina

[jjh927]

Yeah I'm gonna continue to vote Korina holy fuck

[jjh927]

First up, here's this handy part of the rules that Gamma Emerald's requested means of PM confirmation means you should all have read

Damage system: each player starts with 2 hit points. There are ways a player may take damage, as well as ways to prevent or undo damage. Taking unmitigated damage twice will result in death. Damage received in a night will not be made known to the players.

[jjh927]

If Korina is telling the complete truth about that role PM, I'm pretty sure that would be a pretty obvious angle. But he's not.

Korina has a scum role. Maybe it does have some negative attached to being lynched but I am okay with biting the bullet right now

[jjh927]

The only sensible way that kind of shit would work is hurting everyone after dying

[jjh927]

Meanwhile Korina is somehow trying to push through that claiming part of a scum role makes him conftown

[jjh927]

Sidenote: 318 is basically a scumclaim

[jjh927]

It's pretty much irrelevant though because it's not actually Korina's role

I just wanted to confirm beyond a doubt Korina was lying

[jjh927]

I'm a town flagbearer, on top of another ability. I have no idea when my flagbearing ability activates, nor how many people will die when it actives, but I do know it doesn't kill every single townie, nor can it active on D1. I'm also assuming since the game was reviewed for balance that my ability is at least somewhat fair.

[jjh927]

Because when we lynch you, your faction won't all die

[jjh927]

Well, we're deciding today

[jjh927]

Korina said whatever thing it is can't activate on day 1 and he doesn't know how it activates, except that that doesn't make sense because Korina has been arguing that we don't want to lynch him day 1 because bad mysterious flagbearer things will happen

This is two inconsistencies of logic in one, because 1. Korina simultaneously does not know how it activates but also knows it is from a lynch, and 2. Day 1 should be the only safe day to lynch him if he's telling the truth

[jjh927]

Ok, jjh, literally use your fucking brain for a moment. Let's say I'm scum here, alright? My role is exactly what I claimed, but I know exactly what my flagbearing conditions are. Let's also say that it's standard flagbearer, where all members of my faction die.
I have two options for what I can do:
- Not claim flagbearer, hope for the best.
- Claim flagbearer, but attach something so convoluted and hope people believe it.

Which one is easier for scum!me to do? It's not claiming flagbearer.
Even if I have a modified ability where not all members of my faction will die, not claiming flagbearer is much easier to go with.

So please, explain why the fuck I claim flagbearer as scum, unless you believe I'm a third party flagbearer claiming town.

No

I don't do "Why do I do this as scum" arguments because they're trash

[jjh927]

That particular "Why would I do this as scum" argument is also wrought with assumptions I don't care to unpack

[jjh927]

Goddamn that's an awful vote

[jjh927]

Lying about your role and using said lies to justify why you shouldn't be lynched ABSOLUTELY equals scum

[jjh927]

It's not omgus

The vote is awful because your logic is nonsensical and I explained why

[jjh927]

jjh, part of my role is literally confirmed.

Cool

The rest of your claim is inconsistent in a way you have not addressed

[jjh927]

just in case Korina is a scum who flagbears

town

(which would be really overpowered lol)

Why would you ever approach this train of thought at all

[jjh927]

Also, jjh, if you have proof I'm lying about my role, please present it.

Korina said whatever thing it is can't activate on day 1 and he doesn't know how it activates, except that that doesn't make sense because Korina has been arguing that we don't want to lynch him day 1 because bad mysterious flagbearer things will happen

This is two inconsistencies of logic in one, because 1. Korina simultaneously does not know how it activates but also knows it is from a lynch, and 2. Day 1 should be the only safe day to lynch him if he's telling the truth

[jjh927]

just in case Korina is a scum who flagbears

town

(which would be really overpowered lol)

Why would you ever approach this train of thought at all

Because I'm TemporalLich and I can imagine crystalline dragons riding a taxi.

Let me rephrase; why would something that you can recognise as stupidly implausible influence your actions

[jjh927]

I mean, if you can figure out what my ability is based on that, you know exactly why killing me is a very bad idea.

JJH, read my other posts that I've made pertaining to my role and you'll understand what I'm softing and why I shouldn't be killed.

[jjh927]

What part of your role PM made you think it won't function on day 1?

[jjh927]

... so you know how it activates, and specifically it does so after day 2.

[jjh927]

Anything else? I'm good at reading role pms

[jjh927]

That seems like it could be setup info


Anyhow I'm gonna stop posting for a bit and see what other people do

[jjh927]

You know why 3 is a shitty point, right?

[jjh927]

I feel like you can figure that one out.


Also that is not a confirmed mason pair
Mastina claiming masons is a meme

[jjh927]

Alright fine, I’ll admit it then. I lied about flagbearer. I used it to try to flush out scum. It worked. jjh took the bait so hard, it’s not even funny.

You lied

I correctly called you out on your lie

How does this make me scum?

[jjh927]

You're caught scum trying to claim you were doing slayers

[jjh927]

That's the furthest thing from a confirmation there could ever be

[jjh927]

Yeah except you're still taking their word for it

[jjh927]

They have a PT
You gave them a PT

Mastina is fully capable of going "Hey Adorable, let's pretend we're in a masonry"
Do you need me to reference a game where Mastina has done that exact thing

[jjh927]

You know slayers doesn't work right

[jjh927]

Also your logic is actually moronic

You lied

You got caught in the lie with good reasoning as to why it was a lie

But it must be the people who called you out on the lie who are faking reads, rather than the people who scrutinised your claim

[jjh927]

Actually you do know it

[jjh927]

I never used the word gambit

[jjh927]

Oh I fucked 392 up

Also your logic is actually moronic

You lied

You got caught in the lie with good reasoning as to why it was a lie

But it must be the people who called you out on the lie and scrutinised your claim who are faking reads. rather than the people who just believed your claim

ebwop

[jjh927]

Oh, my argument about not using the word gambit was weak af until your contrived defence

[jjh927]

jjh, I have given you a deal. You get to lynch me, and you see that I'm town, in exchange for you being tomorrows lynch. Either accept it or move on.

No that's dumb

[jjh927]

On one hand I am inclined to side with jjh here as he appears to have caught Korina in a few lies. On the other hand I don't understand why scum would have a role to make PTs for other players.

Not even sure if I believe the flagbearer part isn't true.

Role =/= alignment

Setup spec is an art

Scum will not usually have roles that are blatantly scummy, and often may have roles that look pro-town.

[jjh927]

Yeah it's not just VTs

[jjh927]

It's exclusively people who should know better though because everyone should know better

[jjh927]

The reality is that I don't actually care whether or not you knew what slayers is; the point is that you have tried to pivot your play into something similar to it to try to salvage the situation you found yourself in.

[jjh927]

You basically did something shady and then said it was a social experiment

[jjh927]

JJH, then fucking lynch me, and see that i'm fucking town.

That doesn't look like a post made by someone who thinks I'm scum

[jjh927]

If you were convinced I'm scum you would believe I already have knowledge of your alignment. The situation is the reverse; you are caught scum, and 414 is an attempt at bargaining out of the situation

[jjh927]

Why do you think I'm meta reading you?

[jjh927]

What's that, you say? You were misrepping my arguments in a blind rage? That makes sense, because I haven't even touched your meta, nor do I intend to because there is no way you are town

[jjh927]

I can't think of a reason why town would be frustrated in your position

I'm literally the only one pushing you right now

If you think you've caught scum you should be having a great time, like I am

[jjh927]

Well yeah I'm voting you

[jjh927]

I don't need your permission to do that, though

[jjh927]

I think the flagbearer claim was false, but the backpedal was not something Korina intended to do until after being caught in the lie

[jjh927]

If most people had bought it and he'd universally got the towncred he'd been milking the roleclaim for, he'd have kept it up

He had to change gears because he was clearly caught in the lie

[jjh927]

His perspective hasn't changed, but his justifications have. That should be all you need

[jjh927]

Why does Korina make posts like this if faking was part of a town-motivated plan?

I'd fucking love to see you disprove what the mod told me.

[jjh927]

He seemed very motivated by trying to convince people of the claim's legitimacy, as opposed to trying to place people with it

[jjh927]

Town in his scenario ought to have been trying to make use of the fact that scum knows who town are. Scum would be more inclined to just believe a roleclaim like that rather than scrutinising it, because town would have no reason to lie- amusingly, like how Korina totally believes the mastina-Adorable mason claims.

[jjh927]

Not enough

Gamma said vc soon

[jjh927]

You've sure been refraining from scumreading Korina a lot, haven't you TL

[jjh927]

Seems like some weak anti-bus justifications

[jjh927]

Here's a little compilation

I don't think the eth0s/korina interaction strongly implicates either as scum

Either way I don't think Korina is worth voting right now.

yeah this is why Korina is potentially scum... doesn't mean Korina is guiltied scum

"Korina flubbed his role claim" does not equal "Korina is confirmed scum"

Even then powerlynching Korina is a bad move, and I wouldn't be surprised you're scum jjh....

VOTE: jjh927

pedit: actually yeah that's a good point but Korina is untouchable until LYLO

Let me rephrase; why would something that you can recognise as stupidly implausible influence your actions

because I believe it's much more possible that Korina is town flagbearing town... and saying Korina is scum flagbearing scum doesn't mean we're limited to two boxes of possibility.

For the record, I'm inclined to believe Korina is town flagbearing town right now.

more points to "korina can't roleclaim properly"... skimming Korina's ISO pings me null-town

I will refrain from scumreading Korina as Korina is effectively V/LA today

[jjh927]

It's a bit late to bus now though

[jjh927]

I mean, I've been waiting for this pretty heavy post but I can't read things that aren't there

[jjh927]

I am also waiting for something else

VC soon

[jjh927]

jjh927's unofficial votecount

Player	Votes	L-X	Voters
Korina	5	L-2	jjh927, Korina, TiphaineDeath, Son Of A Shepherd, Elements
Elements	2	L-5	mastina, Menalque
TemporalLich	1	L-6	EspressoPatronum
Elbirn	1	L-6	Adorable
jjh927	1	L-6	TemporalLich
Not voting	3	---	momo, Elbirn, eth0s

With 13 alive it take 7 to lynch.
There's (expired on 2019-09-29 13:40:00) left to lynch Korina

[jjh927]

Dude, lynch scum

[jjh927]

I am not keeping scum alive for fucking PTs

[jjh927]

I reckon we've got TWO caught scum right now in Korina and TL

It won't matter what PRs we have knocking around. We're most likely dealing with either 2 or 3 scum in a 13p game. Probably 3. We have two of them on day 1. We will win the game. We are not leashing an ability that makes PTs.

[jjh927]

Until you address my point about him potentially being a scum flagbearer and the utility that could bring us by waiting ONE MORE DAY to lynch him then I don't really care what you want to do

That's a fucking dumb point if he's a scum flagbearer because lynching him now would win the game right away
except that he's not a flagbearer

But if he was a scum flagbearer who did damage to his team rather than just losing them the game, that would have been reflected in his claim. If he's a flagbearer it's a regular one. But he's not.

[jjh927]

Elements' post there was an acceptable observation

[jjh927]

I am not gonna let up because of ate, hypotheticals, wifom, or self-meta. You have mostly been defending yourself with self-meta.

[jjh927]

JJH, answer my question as well. When I flip town, what happens?

Why should I answer this? It ain't happening

[jjh927]

is jjh known for deathtunneling like this often? Like dude it really seems like you can only see one outcome right now and then what happens if you're wrong? Are we just supposed to lynch your next target too as you brush off anything that doesn't make them look guilty?

p-edit what the actual fuck

Not really, no. Usually this kind of shit happens lategame and I case people and usually they have some redeeming features that make me question my reads a bit more.

[jjh927]

But I think this is possibly the worst scumgame I have ever encountered

[jjh927]

That shit probably still gets you banned

[jjh927]

Everyone who just voted korina without so much as even acknowledging my last big post is on my shit list now

So, uh, TL and Korina?

[jjh927]

I dunno why I'm still engaging with you here tbh

[jjh927]

^^^^^^

[jjh927]

Again, town who had the entire scumteam nailed down would be having a really fun game

[jjh927]

Uh, except if you actually thought like that, you'd have waited for someone else to hammer so town got more info

[jjh927]

Hey eth0s, do you want me to go through bit by bit of your post explaining why it's shit?

[jjh927]

We really should not be lynching Korina today. I think we could potentially break the setup depending on what exactly he has been telling the truth about. Hear me out.

His role isn't THAT strong. Scum get roles like this so that you're less inclined to lynch them because they have towny roles.

Part of Korina's role is essentially confirmed -- that is, the part where he gets to create these temporary masonries between players. Even if Korina isn't town we can "leash him" like towns sometimes do with SKs. He makes the speed dates that we want and we don't lynch him. How we will determine what is good or not is hard to establish but I'm thinking each player simply states who they wish to be speed dating.

Yes, part of it is confirmed, but that doesn't mean shit. They're also PTs, not masonries. You do not know the alignment of the other person in a PT with you. There are 2-3 scum, who will be put in those PTs, barring Korina on days that have an odd number of players. Having to say who you would like to be in a PT with may also give scum the ability to hunt for the stronger PRs.

This is even better in the case of town having a role or alignment checker, because hastily lynching him day 1 and losing access to this mechanic that might actually have incredible town value -- well that would be dumb. With a role/alignment check on him, at least one person and eventually others probably would have a way to sort him with real evidence while we keep him leashed and making the PTs that seem to benefit town most.

I wouldn't care about role checking him. We do not know whether or not we have an alignment check of any kind in this game. It would not be worthwhile for, say, a cop to out with an inno on Korina, nor would they out for a guilty on obvious scum- thus, alignment checking on Korina would be wasted regardless of alignment. The best players for cop checks are competent null players.

Personally I still don't fully believe that he isn't a flagbearer of some sort. But I'm more inclined to believe he is if scum, and is not if town. For the sake of the point I'm trying to make, assume he is a scum flagbearer. scum!flagbearer!korina either does not make the PTs we tell him to, or someone provides a guilty result on him, then we lynch him. In this case we would also kill/deal 1 damage to all scum. I am inclined to believe it would be the damage option. So if we put 1 point of damage on the entire enemy scumteam then a vig, should we have one, has MUCH better information and odds of finding scum.

As I discussed, this is most likely wrong. Some of the details I was asking about when I was poking holes in Korina's claim were essentially things I would expect of Korina's mindset, given certain things. If Korina is a flagbearer, it's nothing to do with damage. But Korina is not a flagbearer. It's not worth considering that scenario. Especially post flip, since if Korina was a flagbearer, scum would have lost and would probably be very annoyed at Korina, and would interrupt the twilight trolling.[/quote]

Essentially making him an investigative role of sorts. Because the vig can then shoot a target, and assuming no roleblockey type interference, or prior damage dealt from something else, if the target doesn't die, they can't be on the scumteam (because if they were on the scumteam they would only have 1 hp at this point, causing the vig shot to kill them).

You assume there is a "vig" type role that does damage to people. We do not know this. It runs on a lot of assumptions which are very weak, including the assumption that Korina is a very specific type of flagbearer which he would have claimed originally.

So basically unless someone has reason to believe that Korina is able to see the contents of these PT's, and could be using that information maliciously, I think the potential we could have in keeping him alive greatly outweighs the pros of lynching him now.

I am certain he cannot see the contents of these PTs. Not just because it would be a super imbalanced scum role, but also because of things I have said in mine. I functionally explained some of the thought processes behind things I was pulling, which Korina still responded to with flailing. He is scum, and lynching scum is absolutely our top priority. Mechanical play should augment dayplay, not replace it.

[jjh927]

Hey Menalque, aren't you supposed to be better at the game than this

Or have I just made that up

[jjh927]

Since we're here, why in the fuck do you think Korina is town, Menalque? And what's bad about my push?

[jjh927]

If you're gonna come in here after the lynch has been locked in acting like you know something then you're gonna have to back it up

Show me what you'd have said to defend Korina

[jjh927]

Actually you appear to be trying to lead a push on town for tomorrow, meanwhile I just lynched scum day 1

[jjh927]

Why would I answer a question like that though? It's not really a question. You're making a statement about how you're town while pretending it's a question

[jjh927]

Why does korina bother to keep posting here as scum seeing as if he does flip red I’m just gonna ignore everything he said from his vote to the end of day because it could only be there for WIFOM?

I don't know what he's trying to achieve but it sure as hell doesn't magically make him town

[jjh927]

Do you have a better defence of Korina?

[jjh927]

I don't understand how any sane person could actually townread Korina right now, and you can tell because one of his buddies that appeared to be very anti-bus bussed him

[jjh927]

JJH, JUST ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN I FLIP TOWN?

Night 1 begins, I go "huh", go to any lengths required to avoid playing with you again, and I don't think anyone other than menalque listens to your reads because while I believe you've played an abysmal scumgame, if you flip town you have somehow managed to play an even worse towngame

[jjh927]

You’re spicy as scum

No, I'm not. I hate scumgames

[jjh927]

A lot of upside?

[jjh927]

The guy's reads have no logical basis. He's literally scumreading people who scumread him

[jjh927]

What do I have to gain from listening to that?

[jjh927]

I mean yeah

Do you think Korina has played well this game?

[jjh927]

Do you think any of his reads are above chance? Some of the things he claimed to be looking for in scum are things I actively look for in town

[jjh927]

Engaging with you is the only thing concerning me that he might be town right now

[jjh927]

I went back on it at one point, actually

[jjh927]

SoaS can confirm that I did so, but I did so in the PT

I kept the vote up at that point to see how people reacted to it, then Korina spent a page flailing as scum when I thought the pressure had gone

[jjh927]

Okay, so if he's town, he did that fakeclaim gambit bullshit to find scum, right?

Why was he looking at the people sceptical of his claim?

[jjh927]

The people sceptical of his claim with valid reasoning and clear thought processes would be more likely to be town.

The people who accept the claim would be more likely to be scum who accept claims that come from town because they come from town and town have no reason to lie.

And yet the primary basis upon which he argued I was scum was that I correctly scrutinised his claim and found lies in it

[jjh927]

Relevant Korina quotes:

Alright fine, I’ll admit it then. I lied about flagbearer. I used it to try to flush out scum. It worked. jjh took the bait so hard, it’s not even funny.

Yea, my masterplan as town was to gambit out scum by claiming flagbearer. People will react to that, and I get to discern whether it's town or scum reacting.

I'm looking at how you interacted with my claim. You went from distrusting me to trusting me on it. I don't see a townie doing that.
jjh and td instantly went against it, while mena and eth0s didn't really go against it.

[jjh927]

Ignore reasoning from before since that ~should~ be Korina's real thought process if he's town

[jjh927]

His reasoning was functionally that people who perceived his fake claim to be a lie must be scum, and people who believed it must be town, and furthermore that someone who disbelieved it but later comes to partially believe it is more likely to be scum than town

[jjh927]

My TL scumread does mostly hinge on Korina!scum fwiw

[jjh927]

His reasoning was functionally that people who perceived his fake claim to be a lie must be scum, and people who believed it must be town, and furthermore that someone who disbelieved it but later comes to partially believe it is more likely to be scum than town

But yeah to return to this:

If Korina was actually looking at the reasoning, and not the judgments of whether or not people were effectively scumreading Korina, then the reads would be completely reversed.

[jjh927]

It is true. You can tell by reading the relevant quotes that I quoted.

I don't think TD is scum

[jjh927]

You're still basing shit on the idea that Korina is flipping town, Menalque

And you still haven't shown me what you'd have done to defend Korina if you'd shown up before the lynch

[jjh927]

Korina townflip would make me reevaluate a lot. I don't think I can get into that mindset rn, except that you turning up right after the lynch has gone through and acting as though Korina is flipping town is making me think you are scum in that world.

[jjh927]

Like, from my perspective, you turned up with a very vague idea of the situation, blamed me entirely for pushing through the lynch early, and called me scum without evaluating my arguments on scum!Korina at all

[jjh927]

Oh hi mastina

[jjh927]

Korina self hammered

[jjh927]

Are you seriously doing your catchup thing now

[jjh927]

I know you're reading this on the pedits

[jjh927]

Yeah fuckin MOMOMAN

[jjh927]

yeah like elbirn and jjh know that she has obviously been keeping up with the game. So that actually gives me some glimmer of hope for the playerbase in this game

I think you're giving me too much credit

I'm just annoyed that she's doing this

Yeah, she could be spending time catching up on the important stuff

[jjh927]

Mastina stop doing the catchup post by post shit and talk to us

I know you can read this in previews because it's in big letters

[jjh927]

Sure, except Gamma Emerald could appear and lock the thread at any time

[jjh927]

And while we can't talk to people before the lynch has been achieved any more, we can still talk to people before the flip

[jjh927]

I'd like to think Mastina maybe saw us being annoyed about the catchup in previews, and then went to read the important parts of the game before posting sensible stuff

I don't think that though. I'd just like to

[jjh927]

Well, shit's all gone quiet now

[jjh927]

Well yeah

Either new people show up and weigh in, or we may as well have the flip

[jjh927]

I think some good progress was made in placing Menalque, for example. Regardless of flip, shit would have to have gone down differently if he showed up day 2 rather than twilight

[jjh927]

GODDAMNIT MASTINA

[jjh927]

I'm gonna go shower and you better catch up to a point where you can talk about things that are actually relevant

[jjh927]

I still haven't had my shower

[jjh927]

Yeah

Why do you ask?

[jjh927]

I do wanna be careful not to give away any hints as to SoaS' identity since it looks like a hidden alt

[jjh927]

Oh he's been useful

[jjh927]

Mastina I swear to god

[jjh927]

Honestly though I'm townreading her

[jjh927]

Hey Adorable, can you tell Mastina in your PT that Korina self hammered like ages ago and she should probably catch up sooner rather than later since the thread is getting locked as soon as Gamma looks at it

There might be a higher chance of Mastina reading the latest posts there

[jjh927]

Like seriously, she just got up to the interesting parts

[jjh927]

Oh, Shepherd was a backup of my role pretty sure. I probably shouldn't say what said role is but I'm like 95% certain knowing what my flavor is that Shepherd's role is tied to mine.

VOTE: Elements
Would also vote Espresso or Elbirn; these three are reads where Adorable and I seem to have some overlap. (TL is still a personal scumread of mine but Adorable has a townread there, so.)

He claimed his info in our pt fwiw

I also knew it was deb

[jjh927]

I'll give you deb's reads when I get to my computer

[jjh927]

I don't think anyone whose name begins with el is scum

[jjh927]

That's a bit of a hot take I know

[jjh927]

Yeah I think I'm gonna avenge deb

VOTE: TD

[jjh927]

Yeah mastina that was the info in its entirety

[jjh927]

Deb didn't like Elbirn that much
He thought mastina was pretty towny
He had a fairly strong EP townread, I think based on meta
Elements was hard to describe and probably town

He could see TL scum

[jjh927]

Yeah

Figured it was probably a good idea to pass them on

[jjh927]

Could you maybe give reads, elements

If you be towny I won't have to expend effort explaining why you're town to people

[jjh927]

See, I think we're lynching someone whose name begins with T today
You may have removed the letter l, but eth0s is town and I'm willing to sheep deb on EP

[jjh927]

Also I already obvtowned

[jjh927]

He said EP was playing his towngame. He seemed pretty confident on that

[jjh927]

EP v TL feels really tvt to me

[jjh927]

For someone who appears to be tunnelling TL, how hard do you think TD is trying to get other people to vote TL?

[jjh927]

You have not seen me deathtunnel

My main contribution to Korina's lynch was uncovering his lie and adding pressure upon pressure. Well over half the playerlist would have lynched there, and I was not pushing a quick lynch. It was Korina who both figuratively and literally caused that chain of events. It is worth noting that I am generally speaking very good at catching people when they lie about their role. It is a thing that I do. I don't really think anyone who believed his flagbearer claim even after he owned up to the lie should be in any place to criticise my play.

The only reason I'm not concerned by your general approach to how that lynch went down is because I think you actually believe the stuff you're saying and it is a coherent perspective. Otherwise that combination of discrediting me while getting town points off of your generally awful defence of Korina that pretty much ignored alignment would be quite concerning indeed.

[jjh927]

Okay so I've decided that the shit you're all pushing sucks ass so I'm gonna get you all talking real stuff by efforting over the course of the day

I might even do a readslist with reasoning which I never do

[jjh927]

I would prefer it if you'd talk to me while I do stuff

Conversations are better than me hyperposting

[jjh927]

Me and deb were gonna break the game open together. It was gonna be wonderful. I'd set up a means of communicating in thread via crumbs nobody else would pick up on for when the PT closed and everything.

I'll start with Elbirn and Mastina, since I'll take either of them as a backup deb.


Elbirn is town. The push on a 'scumslip' is lazy af and I should know because I make lazy pushes on 'scumslips' a lot. All it achieves is a bit of pressure, which you can use to push someone and test their reactions. The thing is, it's not even close to a scumslip when he appears to be genuinely irritated at Korina. Scum would not be irritated at Korina. So unless you believe the post to be fake as well, and the idea that it could be faked emotion as well as a scumslip is contradictory due to attention to detail paid by scum when fabricating, that whole push is trash.

Furthermore, Elbirn is one of the three people in the game I am sure of that do not make the SoaS kill. It's a really weird kill. It's funny that nobody has really commented on it. The other people are me and mastina.


Mastina is town. She is disengaged but putting effort in to stay afloat. Once again, why is the push here on weird wordy shit when you can see her thought processes? The timing of that catchup blob might be jarring but it's town af. Please disregard any ill feelings you have towards that being the content we got from mastina at eod1 in lieu of real time conversation, and tell me whether that's faked for towncred and relevancy or mastina's real thought process while trying to come back into the game.

[jjh927]

Out of TL and TD, I am confident that at least one of them is scum. I voted TD earlier; at the time of voting I am still voting there, but he reacted pretty well to a bit of a push.

VOTE: TL

His hesitancy on the korina lynch just doesn't seem real or make sense at all, and looking back it's awful. So, we're going in depth of TL!scum here:

"Korina flubbed his role claim" does not equal "Korina is confirmed scum"

Even then powerlynching Korina is a bad move, and I wouldn't be surprised you're scum jjh....

VOTE: jjh927

So it begins. For both retroactivity and future reference, this is a bad vote. He can see a mislynch coming, and he wants to see if he can get on the other side of it and seem a bit more towny. Have his mislynch and get towncred by opposing it too. However, he doesn't have a good reason at all for why he would think Korina is town here- I point out this

Lying about your role and using said lies to justify why you shouldn't be lynched ABSOLUTELY equals scum

and we get these followups:

Goddamn that's an awful vote

thanks for the side of OMGUS... it tastes like blue cherry gatorade

pedit: actually yeah that's a good point but Korina is untouchable until LYLO

just in case Korina is a scum who flagbears

town

(which would be really overpowered lol)

This gets elaborated on a little here:

Let me rephrase; why would something that you can recognise as stupidly implausible influence your actions

because I believe it's much more possible that Korina is town flagbearing town... and saying Korina is scum flagbearing scum doesn't mean we're limited to two boxes of possibility.

For the record, I'm inclined to believe Korina is town flagbearing town right now.

This is weird as shit. He's claiming to be holding off on voting Korina because he is concerned about lynching a flagbearer that would hurt town. He is, at the same time, saying he believes Korina to be town. The viewpoint overall doesn't make sense; he acknowledges that I have made a good point while calling Korina scum, implying he would be willing to vote there if he did not believe Korina to be a flagbearer. This is contradicted by him saying he believes Korina to be town (flagbearing town).




But now we're on to the worst bit by far. These are sequential posts. There's quite a few so I'll spoiler them:

Spoiler: 448 to 454

I will refrain from scumreading Korina as Korina is effectively V/LA today

You've sure been refraining from scumreading Korina a lot, haven't you TL

Seems like some weak anti-bus justifications

You've sure been refraining from scumreading Korina a lot, haven't you TL

yeah because I thought Korina flubbed the role claim...

Fakeclaiming town flagbearer as a gambit is outright openwolfing though, but I don't want a hammer when Korina is still V/LA.

Here's a little compilation

I don't think the eth0s/korina interaction strongly implicates either as scum

Either way I don't think Korina is worth voting right now.

yeah this is why Korina is potentially scum... doesn't mean Korina is guiltied scum

"Korina flubbed his role claim" does not equal "Korina is confirmed scum"

Even then powerlynching Korina is a bad move, and I wouldn't be surprised you're scum jjh....

VOTE: jjh927

pedit: actually yeah that's a good point but Korina is untouchable until LYLO

Let me rephrase; why would something that you can recognise as stupidly implausible influence your actions

because I believe it's much more possible that Korina is town flagbearing town... and saying Korina is scum flagbearing scum doesn't mean we're limited to two boxes of possibility.

For the record, I'm inclined to believe Korina is town flagbearing town right now.

more points to "korina can't roleclaim properly"... skimming Korina's ISO pings me null-town

I will refrain from scumreading Korina as Korina is effectively V/LA today

I think you're forgetting "I thought Korina messed up his role claim and is still potentially a town flagbearer"

but the gambit combined with the flub means Korina is openwolfing...

Intent to vote Korina

Let's go through this: TL continues to hesitate to vote Korina for shitty reasons, still hoping he can stay off the mislynch wagon and look a bit towny about it. I call TL out on his hesitancy to lynch Korina for shitty reasons. He says he doesn't want a hammer while Korina is effectively V/LA. (For context, Korina had apparently had to buy a vpn in order to post or something, and said he wasn't gonna post any more on that day.) Then, after being thoroughly called out, TL decides he's taking too much flak for not voting Korina, and makes a big deal out of "intent to vote" which isn't really much of a thing.


Where do we go from here?
2 more votes, I make a votecount in order to prevent an accidental hammer, Korina unvotes, EP votes to L-2, Korina continues posting and after a short while, TL votes Korina to L-1. Within two posts, Korina self-hammers.

Now, while Elements tries to unvote and get rid of that L-1, in the manner that someone who was concerned about the potential for a quickhammer would, TL happily brought it to L-1 in spite of his earlier hesitation. This is because he is now on board with the mislynch and unable to get towncred for opposing it. I think if he was the kind of person to hesitate as he did before, he would also be the kind of person to continue to hesitate putting someone like Korina to L-1. The change in behaviour makes sense when attributed to a change in perceived risk/reward for scum.

I'm not ending with a summary or a conclusion. Just make sure you've read the post if you're here looking for a tldr

[jjh927]

Damn that's a hell of a way to respond to a case, TL

[jjh927]

"If other people want to vote the guy who just cased me I will also vote there"

[jjh927]

If you're town I'd suggest rereading it so you can respond to the actual points I made rather than whatever you thought they were

[jjh927]

What do you consider pure omgus

[jjh927]

It looks to me like your defence there is BUZZWORD rather than accepting that there is a point behind me calling that vote awful

[jjh927]

So you do have a good definition of omgus

Which means you should be able to determine that this ain't it

[jjh927]

It's already a bad sign when you start the case with pure OMGUS don't you think?

I was unwilling to vote townflagbearer!Korina because oh god voting there would be openwolfing. And you're acting like me being uncertain is a reason to invalidate my reasoning.

I wasn't willing to powerlynch Korina, and voting someone who is V/LA for pressure makes no sense at all.

The standoffishness (how my reluctance to vote Korina is scum-motivated) is the only valid point of your case. It doesn't exactly make the case deathproof however, or even 1-shot BP for that matter.

Actually the whole of this post is really off

We have:
-Buzzword instead of defence
-Somehow supporting the point I was making while misrepping said point
-Korina wasn't really V/LA, it wasn't a pressure vote, you did the weird intent to vote thing, and you voted Korina to L-1 on the next page. The inconsistency on the hesitation was the main thing I was pushing.
-Accepts a part of my case as "valid"

[jjh927]

lmao I think I missed that combination since I was somewhat distracted by him accepting one of my arguments about why he's scum

[jjh927]

You have anything or anyone you wanna talk about, Chemist?

[jjh927]

I mean you can ask me shit if you want

[jjh927]

What's the point you're trying to make? Please remember that this is a day for good posting

[jjh927]

Maybe you should reread the previous few pages, possibly doing a ctrl f on slip

[jjh927]

How come you're not excited by my TL push anyway

[jjh927]

Weren't you gonna talk to me about Elbirn and Mastina

[jjh927]

Generally speaking, things you think could be scumslips probably aren't

It's fine to push them, but it's not good for it to play a pivotal role in cases. When I say it's lazy, I mean you should look more at thought processes and actual play. I'm not calling you scum when I say it's lazy- I'm saying you can do better than pushing a 'scumslip' even if you really think that was definitely what it was.


Sure, it's easy to fake being irritated. But you've missed the actual point in order to point that out; if the irritation was faked, it would be crafted with some attention to detail such that it couldn't be perceived as a scumslip.



Elbirn was very happily shitposting with SoaS. He doesn't kill there. I feel like Scum!Mastina most likely makes a kill out of her rather limited townreads here.

[jjh927]

Gonna be honest I can't remember what I was referring to as weird wordy shit

[jjh927]

Because when I do it, I can also do better

[jjh927]

I think you should keep doing the stream of consciousness rather than stopping there

[jjh927]

You've called me a gut strong townread and voted me for some very questionable nka poe in the same post

I feel like there's no way you're scum when you're doing that, but it's not taking you good places

[jjh927]

You've got more wrong lmao

I can't play like this as scum

[jjh927]

If you want to do some meta, my best scumgame was vengeful ghosts. I was scum with deb. The shenanigans I achieved alongside deb in the dead thread were trully incredible

[jjh927]

When I'm off my phone, if it'll really help you take off your tinfoil hat, then I can look through my pt and see if I can find something that would convince you me and deb were tight af

[jjh927]

Wait there absolutely is something

We set up a means to talk to each other after the PT closed

If we said eels in a post, then the 5th word in every post after that would form a message. The message stops when a post contains the word nana

[jjh927]

Deb said hello to me at eod because he could

[jjh927]

Don't try and put yourself in the same category as this guy

He's clearly towny and his thought process is clearly telegraphed, but his conclusions are bat shit

Whereas you're making shitty justifications for conclusions it's convenient for you to reach

[jjh927]

The thought journey is more important than the thought destination

[jjh927]

I don't particularly care for how out there what you're thinking about is


What I'm saying is that TD appears to be lost, but you can still trace his journey to wherever the fuck he is on a map.

What I can see regarding your thought process involves being on opposite ends of a map simultaneusly with no path between the two

[jjh927]

What do you think about elements? And don't just give me a short answer

[jjh927]

Wish for more wishes

[jjh927]

Did you at least read my TL case, Elbirn?

[jjh927]

Huh I forgot about that whole TL-EP thing

[jjh927]

I'd still rather you read the case and comment on it

[jjh927]

Honestly I've had a lot of conflicting thoughts and pushing people like this is the best way for me to place people

[jjh927]

Hopefully other people won't pay any attention to it and will react to the case organically

[jjh927]

I'll respond to that after other people respond to it, but it is seen