Mini Theme 2158: Cards of Destiny Mafia Game Over

[Hayasaka]

I love Michiru :O
I think you've played in some games with me but you were on alts so it's hard to put that in my long term memory.

Also hard claim compulsive gladiator.

I wish that was a fake claim I really do.
There is an upside if I use it 7 irl days into the game, so I am likely going to do that.

[Hayasaka]

VOTE: Prune

Good vote.

[Hayasaka]

I challenge Prune to a duel!

[Hayasaka]

I hope I didn't just gladiate Date because I really didn't pick up that connection at first.

[Hayasaka]

I hope I didn't just gladiate Date because I really didn't pick up that connection at first.

Tbh if it goes through I am self voting.

[Hayasaka]

^^^^^^^^^ For MariaR

[Hayasaka]

While I think this is town, I don't necessarily think this is the right thing to do tbh.

I mean we can always evaluate between you both

Maybe I just don't think that would be fair to them for personal reasons.
Game reason is if Date ends up being a stronger PR then myself they would need to out to stay alive.

[Hayasaka]

tris: i don't consider my own point to be particularly strong or worth pursuing with jjh not here to begin with, but i appreciate you engaging it in an honest way.

thank you. you seem like you'll be pleasant to work with even if you are actually mafia.

i like to question people to discover how they are thinking. that's more important than if they're right or wrong.

Wholesome game incoming (*＾ω＾)人(＾ω＾*)

[Hayasaka]

I do agree that Tris is giving off town vibes.

[Hayasaka]

It's role madness so I wouldn't be town reading Tris for anything role-based brought up in the hood.

[Hayasaka]

my townread on tris is exclusively for in-thread reasons

Same!!!

[Hayasaka]

Is this official, since you bolded it in the thread? I don’t think you fakeclaim this role if you don’t have to. Idk if they’re scum or not but I’m obviously not voting you.

It would have been resolved by now if it was official.

[Hayasaka]

yes. i was considering pooky, but i don't know if i feel like engaging a wall like that right now. Pepper's been giving opinions but not giving opinions, you know?

What do you think of his theory that scum could fake claim neighbors in order to defend each other.
I disagree with the theory but I am unsure if it would be made by town or scum.

[Hayasaka]

they

could

. i consider that less likely than there just being neighbours, especially in a Maria game. but that's what i mean about idly voicing hypotheticals. it could be or it couldn't be, but what does that get you?

Pepper: that's true enough.

He either is town and believes what he is saying.
Or as scum he said something that he knows is false and people aren't going to care about.

[Hayasaka]

I only joined this game because I like MariaR.

[Hayasaka]

wait, Ampharos is in the hood. yes. you're the one who cruelly gladiated my evil twin, Prune.

Y'all have friends?

[Hayasaka]

Why am I still awake at 4am.

[Hayasaka]

one of us

One minute I am playing Pheldagriff and the next minute it's 4am. shh

[Hayasaka]

@Hayasaka

why haven't you made any real votes?

I am a bit busy until later today but I will come up with something for you.
Sorry I know I haven't been trying very hard, I've only been having fun so far.

[Hayasaka]

@tris

, re: the hood, yes town can out the information regardless of whether it’s previously outed but instantly saying “hey I’m watching you bub” will probably make them interact in a more guarded way. It could be used as a psych out tbh, but given Ampharos seems to be a newb I don’t expect they were thinking on that level. Plus there’s also the fact Ampharos just seems super self-conscious about the whole situation. It’s not a suspicion that really holds a lot of weight but I think I can VOTE: Ampharos and feel okay with calling that a serious vote.
As for Kaname Date yeah it’s not much but I just think scum would be less likely to express the kind of thought shown in that post.

How were they self-conscious about it?
Can you quote some posts that express that?

I wasn't getting that vibe reading that sequence.

[Hayasaka]

Plus there’s also the fact Ampharos just seems super self-conscious about the whole situation. It’s not a suspicion that really holds a lot of weight but I think I can VOTE: Ampharos and feel okay with calling that a serious vote.

I don't see how this gives you a self-conscious vibe. She talks about it once after being prodded on it then drops the topic entirely.
First part explains a stance on mechanical information and the 2nd part feels silly but I wouldn't call it self concious or any other worrds that could be used to describe a wolf.

It's like saying "I am an ascetic", "I claimed for XYZ", "ok time to move on".

Spoiler: Amy Quote

full disclosure: I have a neighbor chat with tris.

Neither of our alignments are mentioned in the chat and (to my knowledge) there's no outside mechanical weirdness tied to it, just a vanilla neighbor chat.

If anything happens in there that gives me cause for concern, I'll let y'all know.

my instinct with neighbour chats is usually to keep them secret until outing them has a specific purpose. what's your reason for doing so here?

I tend to dislike concealing mechanical information without a concrete reason to do so, and will otherwise default to laying all my cards on the table. Having access to a neighbor chat is a super innocuous thing that I don't really see the benefit in concealing.

Furthermore, accountability; if Tris says something compromising in the chat I can now just pop in and say "hey Tris is being weird in chat" instead of having to waste time claiming later. [that said, Tris seems like an obvious villager aorn, but whatever]

Finally:
i have no idea how to use a neighbor chat this is literally my first time

[Hayasaka]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Feels like Gamma is trying to grab onto something right now rather than that be a naturally formed read.

[Hayasaka]

In regards to calling the MU admin a new player. lol.
Is 1300 posts enough to realize Zor is an admin on MS?

[Hayasaka]

Hayasaka is just a villager, and if they're not I'm just hard pocketed and someone else'll have to catch them anyways. Not wasting any more brainpower here for now.

If your attempting to pocket me by claiming I am omega town or scum who hard pocket you.
It is in fact working. Good job very cool.

[Hayasaka]

I had a dream about me going to one of those parking lots that are full of food trucks.
Bruh I am eating oatmeal for breakfast, why does reality suck so much.

[Hayasaka]

I can gladiate you

[Hayasaka]

I mean sure you can keep patting yourself on the back for fuck all if you like

This post is kinda townie.

[Hayasaka]

Gonna be so awkward when I gladiate in 5 irl days and hit Gamma.
Rest of your list is certainly safe and I see them as town along with yourself.

[Hayasaka]

I think more things should be clear in 5 irl days

This is my gameplan.

Days 1-3 shit post and solve awfully, mainly find town reads.
Day 4 Post a POE of people who can still be scum.
Day 5

This is likely the best approach.

[Hayasaka]

In fairness I just posted a basic guideline for solving a game as a group lol.

[Hayasaka]

(As a wolf, I'd absolutely be using the chat to try to pocket a town Tris. I used to play a lot of social games involving manipulation in a one-on-one setting and am pretty confident in my ability to successfully do so. But that's obviously WIFOM now that I've said it out loud, so feel free to ignore this entire parenthetical lol)

I know I am not supposed to do this.

I town read this post, Amy has a large history with social games and I kind of follow this logic >__>
Although I already town read other posts so not like this makes a big difference.

[Hayasaka]

DnD

want to be massons with me?

Do you think being masons with the gladiator is a health and safety risk

[Hayasaka]

Sorry today was DnD so I didn't have time to play.

[Hayasaka]

Hayasaka, i'm interested in reading this guideline to gamesolving as a group.

I mean I consider the following to be a basic strategy, particularly for large themes it's effective.

Find a few very strong town reads you can trust maybe 2-3.
Consolidate on a large number of town reads.
Determine who is scum in the POE.

People can't do this because they don't understand that removing scum from your POE temporarily in step 2 isn't the end of the world, you can be wrong just as much as someone else can be. You can call one a strong sucm town early and kill scum PRs. You can town bloc scum and recover if you know how to adjust.

Trick is to go back to step 1 and not step 2 when you repeat on future days. Scum will typically neglect buddies because they think they can solo win or think having them in the POE won't matter. So either you bloc scum and they bus for you or you catch them later on when you see faulty reasoning / progression.

I think people don't think about improving how they approach the game, they only focus on their reads.

[Hayasaka]

VOTE: Hayasaka
Notice me senpai
Why did you shade me like you did

I chainsawed Amy, you could say I am doing something wrong but it would the opposite of a shade.
So to answer that question I think you are targetting what you believe to be a low hanging fruit. Ampharos + that avi is far more likely to be a unique ID compared to me who is a clear alt.

Rest of this player list seems decent or is Not_Mafia who isn't pushable day 1 beyond a very late PL.

You admitting to grasping onto something doesn't make me feel better about it. Maybe I can improve my read down the line if you are town I do have time to figure this out and I'd rather solve top-down then bottom up. Tends to lead to better reads. But having a preference to top-down solving isn't going to stop me from seeing something I view as off and acting on it.

[Hayasaka]

I apologize in advance to whoever I gladiate day 1.
I'll try my best to make an informed choice but with no wagons and a large number of slots feeling kind of MIA it's going to be hard. :/

I might have to ignore the upside to my role and gladiate late at the current rate which would really suck.

[Hayasaka]

i need to take a closer look at my neighbor now. i have some biases floating around her in either direction which i don't think are actually related to her alignment. i need to see through that with a clear head

I wouldn't mind fading a neighbor. But if that neighbor flips town then I can't sleep until we we flip the other one.

but why? we could both be town, which is of course what i want to figure out.

Elaborate for me my pirate friend.

[Hayasaka]

i'm actually a bit bothered by the lack of wagons (aside from the gamma one (which i am no longer agreeing with)). does anyone else want to vote venusmarsandpluto with me? 240 continues to bother me.

I meant to quote this, sorry Tris.

[Hayasaka]

Okay, still leaves my original issue unanswered
Why did you call out the fact I have 1000+ posts on MU? What purpose did that serve?

And like, this also serves as a point of engagement more for D&D, but what strike you as off about my reversal, if anything? I could have persisted on my push, but I felt really unsure of whether it had any legs to stand on following my considerations, and honestly I think it was better to unvote then, rather then get stuck in some headass push because I couldn’t reconsider early. Tbh it bothers me that Cakez is just blithely regarding that action as scummy, I think he’d have enough experience with me to know it’s straight up out of the norm for me in general to rethink in that sort of way.

I felt like it, small things like that tend to stand out to me so I like to think about them.

Umm I plan on doing a lot more rereading tomorrow. So I'll just give you the really shitty answer that I can give you off the top of my head since I want to sleep.
I don't remember you backing down and I don't remember calling you scum for that, if I did.

[Hayasaka]

By backing down do you mean "grasping onto something" because I don't consider that backing down.
It's more being self aware in the flaws of your own posts. Which is a tad different.

As scum it's less backing down and more posturing since I don't think admitting to a fault is an action that typically gets scum read. People on this site typically react with "why the fuck would they say that" relatively easily so I don't think it's an odd way to back down as scum.

The tiny hydra sheeping me feels off because they are a hydra and I rarely see hydra consolidate with other players this early over each other. Even late game hydra tend to do that which is why they aren't very fun to play with.

[Hayasaka]

fucking hydras

[Hayasaka]

Hayasaka are you willing to join me and Tris as Masons?

Step 1 down, town bloc achieved.
Ok catching up real quick.

[Hayasaka]

Confirmed town gladiator is pretty stacked.
Let's goooooooooooooooo

[Hayasaka]

I have a day action that makes it so people can only vote for me or them.

[Hayasaka]

FL if I hypothetically had to gladiate in the next 6 hours and not 3 days what would you suggest I do?
Catching up now I know I missed a lot a busy few days.

[Hayasaka]

FL if I hypothetically had to gladiate in the next 6 hours and not 3 days what would you suggest I do?
Catching up now I know I missed a lot a busy few days.

And if you don’t do it within that time period, it goes away?

I lose something that isn't the gladiate that I am not willing to lose.

[Hayasaka]

@Pooky
Do you think scum would be more likely to approach me the way D&D or Amy are where they just shove me at the top of there read list?
Or do you think they would be contrarian like Gamma as he is been the only player to push me all game to make me ask "why would scum do that"?

I know how people would treat my main but I have 0 idea but how my current mask would change how people approach me. Relative to my power scum basically need to be 2nd worst or above. If I personally was scum I'd gamble on being 2nd worse since that's easier then town telling my way to the top but I know I don't think like a normal person.

[Hayasaka]

@Haya

What are your early thoughts on FL and NM?

Suspicious and "oh it's NM" right now.

I am trying to figure FL out but to some degree, the Pooky read isn't the worst I just don't understand what FL is doing and it bothers me.
There are limited moments when I feel like he is trying to solve compared to him just talking to player because he can. He basically feels a lot more reactive then proactive with his solving this game and it's a yikes to me.

I scum read "who are the neighbors" in particular. Feels like one of those manufactured posts to get the super-easy "but that would have been brought up in the scum PT" read. It was a page 1 claim brought up on many pages afterward.

The tiny hydra sheeping me feels off because they are a hydra and I rarely see hydra consolidate with other players this early over each other. Even late game hydra tend to do that which is why they aren't very fun to play with.

is this about D&D? this is an interesting point i don't think i've considered re: hydrae before.

Authors note: This is not a tested or proven tell, I don't track hydra specific tells because friendships impact their play patterns too much.

It's more something I noticed than anything else, I don't think it's a bad play. As a solo slot I wouldn't even have mentioned it, it's just interesting that Cakez went to sheep a top town read instead of checking up with Lilith. But voting Gamma then DMing Lilith "hey I did this" isn't impossible or scummy. It's just something I wanted to chew on for a bit and I sort of realized isn't scummy. Maybe it really was, at the very least that tell is something I am going to track moving forward to see if it means something.

@ Hayasaka/Tris

who should we recruit for the next mason in our team?

I wanted to add D&D to create that dramatic tension but I think something about them scum reading one of you and null reading the other makes them not want to be our masons??? Weird stuff really.

[Hayasaka]

I just realized I missed a quote from D&D but it's essentially answered in my reply to Date anyway. It's just the wording is now not targetted at them.

I'd do a catch up where I add thoughts but it's 3am.
I have 2-3 targets I am leaning on right now for the gladiate but I won't share them for personal reasons.

[Hayasaka]

Wait, who are we scumreading?

Oh Sailor girls is the hydra, I was thinking of Tris the pirate who is in my masonry.
That does not make me feel better about their reaction to your read list.

[Hayasaka]

Yeah when they called you conf scum for calling them a top scum read.
My initial reaction was "I guess calling a global town read Tris scum is a bit weird but I am not sure."

I almost signed this post with my mains name >_>

[Hayasaka]

yes, you really do. i can't recommend the unspoiled experience of the somnium files enough.
i really TR 509. call me contrarian. i like the retroactive explanation and the "aha" feeling.

I agree I like the fish.
I think N_M is playing to his scum game right now, I got my trigger finger waiting on him right now.

But I don't want to make this generic statement without fact checking it.
Don't mind me as I waste my time.

[Hayasaka]

I just find N_M will solve, will have high post density.
But will just never explain anything as town.

And I don't particularly take issue with the first 2 lines. I think is actual current lack of presence is incredibly bizarre for him.
From a crowd analysis standpoint he also isn't under much if any pressure which just strikes me as odd for a field that should be full of scum?

[Hayasaka]

Ok I have a confession to make.

I fake claimed part of my role, I wanted to gladiate everyday to get the upside of my role since needing to use it in first half of the phase to get a bonus effect is true. So I claimed the caveats of being compulsive to justify doing selfish play in order to gladiate every day and not be flamed for it.

I think I shouldn't gladiate day 1 since I realized the first day I gladiate I am being roleblocked or killed and day 1 has way too high of a value for my own needs to outweigh the town as a whole.

I might pull the trigger late day 1 anyway, since gladiator is still a role with upside. I am likely always pulling it every day past day 1 since I need to put the pressure of having my PR being active on the scum.

We have no real wagons so if I followed through, I'd either need to target Gamma which is a wagon I led, or I'd need to hip fire which creates no real other info. And if I am wrong on Gamma I just think we are completely fucked so I think my gambit really failed this game with how wagons decided to form.

Sorry if anyone is unhappy with this post.

[Hayasaka]

{Hayasaka, PookyTheMagicalBear} special masonry
{Kaname Date, BrightEyedFish}
{Ampharos}
{Gamma Emerald, Flavor Leaf}
<anything above here is some level of townread>

{Daenerys and Dragons, Venus Mars and Pluto, Not_Mafia, DoctorPepper, jjh927} mafia be somewhere in here

Swap FL and JJH and we have the same read list.
Masonry is doing good.

[Hayasaka]

Actually I misread part of that readlist.

Dump the entire tier of FL and Gamma.
I town read D&D and jjh to the smallest degree where you put that tier. Still very much in sync though which is good.

I guess our shared POE is NM, Doctor Pepper and Venus Mars Pluto?

Some spectator quoting that and calling us shit for our 0/3 reads. Nice.

[Hayasaka]

Why do you town read FL slightly in particular?

[Hayasaka]

Hya, I know I haven’t been able to post too much lately but I really think you should at least have a glimmer atp, that this is 100% my towngme here.

Why is FL scum?

~Mars

It's a POE list not a scum list.

Also I don't use meta nearly as much as what people give me credit for. If I use it I like to have a decent sample size which involves me fact checking reads 99.9% of the time since I can't recall 3-5 scum games for most people on the top of my head which is a pretty key bar to using meta.

[Hayasaka]

Where are you pulling this "global town read" from?

Off the top of my head is me, pooky, amy, date and jjh.
Probably a few I am missing.

Why do you town read FL slightly in particular?

his "read" on me. those words seemed like something he actually thinks, and i think i understand where he's coming from with it.

Interesting ok, I'll take another look at him.

[Hayasaka]

Yeah but I'd like some specificity

Since that last list of people who I said were town, I also think VMP and Fish are town

What is VMP doing?

[Hayasaka]

I don't think both Gamma and D&D are scum together and I don't have enough confidence in Gamma being town to want to gamble like that. Especially given it isn't even guaranteed it is a TvS exchange.

[Hayasaka]

Let's not, please.

[Hayasaka]

UNVOTE:

[Hayasaka]

I regret not just gladiating.

[Hayasaka]

I didn't think we could achieve such a bad lynch within the first half of the deadline so I really thought it was suboptimal play.
My bad I guess?

[Hayasaka]

I said I thought the slot was town before any wagon started to form unless I am remembering the timeline incorrectly. I liked the frustration in response to the pressure they had this game it felt natural while the more "ideal" responses to me have always felt very controlled.
Cakez gets mislynched frequently in most games he plays and no one has a case brought up against Lilith in particular. So I guess out of the many times I've seen Cakez get fucked this time I am supposed to think it's good? I am on an alt so I had a low desire to ever bring up meta and push it. Especially meta that points towards the void instead of any conclusive evidence. But it's not something that won't be shaping my thoughts subconsciously even if I am trying to avoid using it.

You can say I don't have a case in defense, but the case in favor of this wagon is absurdly vague and undefined as well like the reaction to them coming in "isn't good enough" so it's not like I am failing to argue against any specific points because I don't feel any are present. Them not being good enough in reaction doesn't suddenly make anything appear before hand that is willing to persuade me.

I don't think we get a large amount of information on a town flip I wanted NM dead and I am still going to post flip. I already concluded Gamma is probably town and honestly if anything a town flip on DnD wouldn't exactly help me reach that conclusion. So that's my most key read and key read change being unchanged.

[Hayasaka]

I just don't see what you think I am not arguing against?
When the entire premise behind this wagon is you don't really have much of one.

Sailors - They called me scum + a single game of meta
Gamma - Complaining his vote was never counted.
Tris - I scum read the lynch bait.
Pooky - I'll sheep Tris
Flavor Leaf - This isn't a bad lynch imo

Keep in mind this isn't an attempt at diving anyones cases. This is just my memory of why people are voting them.
But reading this the only acceptable vote is Pooky's and Tris' because from an isolated standpoint I can see why they wouldn't hand wave a lot of Cakez posting the same way I am doing.

[Hayasaka]

The reason I didn't address the single game of meta was because I was tired and one game of meta is never enough information to make a conclusive tell.
Which is a theory debate over one that pertains to the game.

I wasn't worried about the pace of the wagon and I didn't think it would help me sort Sailors.

[Hayasaka]

What do you mean don’t get a lot on a town flip? They’ve had conversations with multiple people in this game. On top of being a slot that was being off putting, I disagree hard that this wasn’t a solid day 1 kill, even if they flip town.

What conclusions can you come up with that you don't already have now?
If it was a night kill sure, because at that point it's someone deemed to not be a liability to town since a nightkill doesn't mean someone was a threat.

It's more I just don't think calling me TMI is ever fair to me when the case for is very comparative in size than my case against, aka pretty garbage and inconclusive. If everyone else just gets vastly better reads after this, then that's fine. I just don't personally see anyone pushing them in a way that creates major read flags. Probably because I was already solving with them being town in my own world.

[Hayasaka]

You brought up NM as a counter? Absolutely not. That gives nothing on a town flip

I play for scum flips with no regard for information.
As soon as you start to consider the information when making votes you start to lose information.

Because at that point you can rule out why someone voted someone as they were "voting to gain information".


The extent of what I care about information is I won't post wall cases until I absolutely need to. This is mainly because if I just hard town cased someone to the moon and back it disrupts the natural flow of reads way too heavily. Although I don't have any reads I could explain in a wall this game, just general theory talk.

[Hayasaka]

already solving with them being town in my own world.

There’s your issue; it’s Day 1 yo.

I always look at interactions relative to my own reads?
I've never seen an issue with creating 12 town reads in a 13p game, lynching the 13th player, seeing them flip scum. Then starting from scratch all over again.
It's just what I believe to be good and acceptable gameplay. You get literally 0 bonus points for solving a game day 1, solving a game 1 read at a time is a perfectly valid approach especially if doing so will raise your read accuracy.

[Hayasaka]

I do that too.

I think DnD vs Gamma was TvS, and I think Gamma is the town. Gamma being concerned about the missing vote is something, the only issue I might have with it is if they knew all along that their vote was missing, and thus overemphasized it. I’ve definitely taken my own vote away as scum before.

Idk if Gamma would do that, though, especially this early into the game.

"You shouldn't think that day 1"
"I thought D&D vs Gamma was TvS"

[Hayasaka]

I challenge Not_Mafia to a duel!

/shrug.

[Hayasaka]

I challenge Not_Mafia to a duel!

/shrug.

[Hayasaka]

Gamma serious question, do you know why your vote hasn't been counted the entire game?
Because it hasn't been counted all game which is just weird to me.

And someone here has a 2nd vote .-.

[Hayasaka]

I am leaning on you knowing what the reason is over FL stealing your vote btw.

[Hayasaka]

Gamma serious question, do you know why your vote hasn't been counted the entire game?
Because it hasn't been counted all game which is just weird to me.

And someone here has a 2nd vote .-.

It was counted earlier, it just got stuck and then was put into not voting
so my vote isn't disabled, either the mod has been off her game or it's being tampered with

Weird cause I saw some of your other votes not be counted.
But I missed the one on me that was

Which slightly changes my accusation I just made.

Tbh I outed this alt.
I just didn't know if it was my place to out an alt mid game /shrug.

[Hayasaka]

I have multiple alts and only 1 copy of FireFox to hide them in ;-;

[Hayasaka]

Tbh as long as I never slip on my many year old alt I won't care that much >_>

[Hayasaka]

i feel like we actually lost info here

You feel that way because we did.
We gained the info I don't town read Flavor Leaf for whatever that is worth.

[Hayasaka]

Wait I think he was in my POE anyway.
So umm... I guess that's that?

[Hayasaka]

I don't think a reasonable individual thinks that hammer is pro town.
So I sort of just get the vibe FL did that because he could.
And he has 0 other things in his ISO I would consider "pros".

[Hayasaka]

My role is very flavorful.

[Hayasaka]

Maybe we got a scum flip with them not posting anymore?
That would be nice.

[Hayasaka]

Mechanics cleared Pooky.
In many ways actually.

[Hayasaka]

FL can you find me town games where you quick hammer?
I don't want to see a threat, I want to see you do it.

[Hayasaka]

FL can you find me town games where you quick hammer?
I don't want to see a threat, I want to see you do it.

[Hayasaka]

Is it considered poor play to gladiate at day start?

[Hayasaka]

[Hayasaka]

I GOT A BIG BUTTON

[Hayasaka]

Everyone here playing the game like I don't have a big button.

[Hayasaka]

DnD was obsessed with knowing why FL had a SR on tris. So this intrigues me.

honestly in a vacuum this strikes me as more indicative of FL town than tris scum

which intrigues me

I think post scum flip I town read FL a lot harder then if D&D ever flipped scum.
I like it less than a natural flip like it feels more like a played out bus on an apathetic scum slot. Then FL just having a natural progression to shut down a scum?
But this is more a late game thought then something I want to humor right away. I spent a lot of the night phase thinking about this and while I won't clear them for it and will continue to analyze them kinda critically. I am afraid to touch them in the near future.

Sailors obviously gains a lot of town cred post flip. They had weird interactions for SvS.

[Hayasaka]

Amy how is your hood with Tris going?

[Hayasaka]

DP can I gladiate you and can you shoot Not_Mafia?

[Hayasaka]

On one hand I believe the claim on the other hand it's like a treestump claim.
Even if you believe it you are still supposed to vig them.

[Hayasaka]

I am gladiating later tonight if I see no objections.
On one hand I don't have the proper time to put into this game.
On the other hand I don't view my actions as changing.

[Hayasaka]

If you guys are flithy stallers who value "talking" in your social games.
Then I can wait until the deadline reads "8 days remaining".
Gamma asked for a timer but I'd rather everyone just follow the actual deadline timer then some made up Hayasaka timer and the actual deadline.

[Hayasaka]

I challenge DrPepper to a duel!

I mean the choice comes down to who DrP venges not who I choose to gladiate.
Waiting isn't going to change anything on review.

[Hayasaka]

Because the main discussion is still DrP do this.

[Hayasaka]

Why do people always get so suprised when I state strong read on slots that are lurking like NM.
Not like NM lurking makes him more or less readable.

Some players get harder to read if they get super into a game because of how good their scum game is.

[Hayasaka]

I think the notion that individual slots are special and need to lynch the power wolf while they are still alive is a plague to this game.
I think we should always just kill Not_Mafia here unless you truly believe someone is more likely to be scum.

[Hayasaka]

I see posts directed at me and people want my thoughts on NM.

I think in general NM is playing to his scum meta.
Their is 2 arguments
- NM can't be read.
- NM should be dealt with later.

I consider both these arguments to not actually matter. I think if NM is scum he should always be flipped you want to flip mafia in this game, that is a given and that argument sucks.
If he is truly unreadable then we want him dead now, since apparently no amount of information will help us read him.
I'd rather have more info down the line when lynching between Amy and Flavor Leaf. Idk it's just the town mentality towards wanting to be a hero, and I don't think I can change that over a small set of posts.

So hypothetically if NM is unreadable he should die so we can solve other players with more info on later days.

[Hayasaka]

The only counter argument I can think of that is even slightly reasonable is scum can kill into a better player list for them.
But worse players with better info do better then better players with worse info.

Unless their is just a player with a clear skill gap from everyone else which isn't present in this game.

[Hayasaka]

I swear I read a 1v1 between you and FL maybe it was a fever dream
I threw in a random example on why solving NM now is greater then solving whatever hypothetical debate people have on their mind.

[Hayasaka]

Names don't matter, the principle of having more info down the line is the only take away from that post.

[Hayasaka]

Unless you guys genuinely think in a F3 situation NM will still be alive and also won't be voted out by then?
Which is something I'd definitely aggressively defend if I actually thought he was town, I like NM.

[Hayasaka]

You guys are making me argue like this is like I am trying to PL NM when I just think NM is scum.
But like I can't make a counter argument to "hehe unreadable xD" very easily...

[Hayasaka]

How does knowing who has a neighborhood help you solve the game?
I don't think our PRs should be claiming right now.

[Hayasaka]

I don't think we need a hood claim in order to not shoot them today. But I have a bias of town reading both for a very long time.
Roles in hoods in general will have less power or will be paired with scum.

The latter hurts us less then giving POE to the scum.

Our cop/watcher will never be in a hood for example since they just get someone else to claim results for them. I don't want the scum to have a stronger POE especially on a phase like this one where it's mostly just DrP's choice anyway.

[Hayasaka]

Tomorrow is fine, I just don't want scum to have a more informed kill tonight.
When I don't see the hood claim changing anything.

[Hayasaka]

Tris/Ampharos team

They are literally just neighbors.

[Hayasaka]

@DrP I want to catch you when you are posting before you shoot tyty.

[Hayasaka]

I don't want to say this as a threat.
I just think if NM doesn't get shot at this point I am going to gladiate him tomorrow.

And that is really awkward because if he is town I live and if he is scum I die at night.
But that's all wifom that favors scum more then town since they can dictate how they approach it.

This is a stupid post to make but it something on my mind.

[Hayasaka]

Like I really only gladiated DrP who I thought was town because not lynching Vengeful townies feels kinda anti-town to me?
It's like getting a suicide bomb role pm, claiming that role while you're in the POE getting town read for it then not using it.

bleh I am sorry I feel like I misplayed.

[Hayasaka]

I still think Amy is making town sequences and the sarcastic "I could be scum" quip makes her more likely to be town. I was worried I was being manipulated on a social level to town read her because I just like her and she was hard town reading me.

But if she was trying to play the game from that angle I am not sure why she would make a post like that which people are just not going to like. Sure some people don't care about those kinds of posts but you do have to play around the majority of the player list as scum.

[Hayasaka]

In regards to info flips I think NM has so much contention at this point it basically doubles as an info flip?
I know his own posts aren't that incriminating to anyone one way or the other.

But he is still an off wagon player who is being defended by a wide portion of the player list. And it's weird how that wide portion that is defending him is saying that he isn't an info flip.

I also think NM is playing in a way where we probably won't get further info beyond this.

[Hayasaka]

I am not sure why a pro is you guys don't think you can convince the town to lynch Amy.
Like that isn't a point in Amy's favor????

[Hayasaka]

If we all want to play that way @DrP.
If you don't shoot NM then I am gladiating first post tomorrow.

See how this doesn't work?

[Hayasaka]

If we all want to play that way @DrP.
If you don't shoot NM then I am gladiating first post tomorrow.

See how this doesn't work?

And if Amy flips scum and NM flips town, do you want to get marked as a thrower?

Couldn't I say the same if Amy flips town and NM flips scum?
I don't think that thought process should impact either of our plays.

I don't think NM flipping town or Amy flipping town stops either of us from reevaluating the other player.
I stated why I think lynching NM first is the better line of play.

[Hayasaka]

I am not sure why a pro is you guys don't think you can convince the town to lynch Amy.
Like that isn't a point in Amy's favor????

how?

I just don't think "ah yes I won't be able to eliminate them down the line" is a point against someone ever.

[Hayasaka]

Sorry can we go back to square one.
This discussion is incredibly stupid and involves a threat I won't follow up on.


Why is Amy flipping scum?

[Hayasaka]

Gamma has took his town cred and just started to aggressively burn it recently.
Quite facinating really.

[Hayasaka]

NM is fadeable. If Not Mafia isn’t venged, they will go down still.

Ampharos red flip also would effectively clear both myself and NM.

this is a very good point for why to venge Amphy I think

If we all want to play that way @DrP.
If you don't shoot NM then I am gladiating first post tomorrow.

See how this doesn't work?

And if Amy flips scum and NM flips town, do you want to get marked as a thrower?

Sorry can we go back to square one.
This discussion is incredibly stupid and involves a threat I won't follow up on.


Why is Amy flipping scum?

why did you make it then

As for why Amphy is scum, I'm pretty much just acting off of what FL has said, but Amphy is pressuring FL to make a hard read while refusing to do so herself, and seems to be trying to use that hard read as a way to paint FL as scum regardless of NM's flip

The top 2 posts followed by the bolding on the third feels off to me.

[Hayasaka]

You and Gamma wanted to shoot Amy since you fear you can't fade them, which is you 2 trying to control the game.

"See how this doesn't work?" Was the last line in my threat, I am basically showing how if I counter by controlling the game it all goes to shit.

Gamma retaliates with the threat of saying I'd be a game thrower if wrong.

Then he acts confused on why I would ever threaten him.


It's a super disingenuous sequence albeit I am not actually positive it makes him scum because he could have just done that out of some kind of frustration with my contesting him so heavily.

[Hayasaka]

I don't know if it was clear or not but "See how this doesn't work" in itself I thought was enough to show "see what happens when we all play like this". And not me trying to literally strongarm the game. I wouldn't do it because I think this game has more then just the 3 of us and the greater opinion of the town sorta matters.

I think his follow up threat of saying I'd be a game thrower goes both ways and has nothing to do with anything. Then he is trying to act innocent in the final post like "why ever threaten in the first place then owo".
It's just so weird to me lol.

[Hayasaka]

I probably have the wrong interpretation of the last post in hindsight.

[Hayasaka]

And why are you the one that isn’t wrong here? I believe you are on the wrong side

Ok explain how I am wrong then?

[Hayasaka]

Not Mafia flips town, who’s scum, Hayasaka?

I don't have a reason to think he is flipping town so I don't have a reason to care.
I think the literal entire game went to hide ever since I gladiated so I honestly only have town read on a few slots that I find are poking in in interesting ways.

Tris, You, Gamma, Amy probably in that exact order if NM flips town although I am not actually thinking about this very much. I think it's Tris from the way they are approaching the phase even if Amy just flips town.
On a Tris scum flip after that, I wouldn't just go you -> Gamma -> Amy, at the point I'd have 2 curveballs from my current stance and would need to reevaluate.

I think no one in this thread has a reason to town read NM and I am not shooting Tris on the back of that.

[Hayasaka]

On a NM town flip I think Amy has pointed out she is going to need to reevaluate me.
And if I manage to stay on the top of her list after that then _idk_ I am probably just wrong on her.

So either way I think I can evaluate Amy easily post NM flip, they are either forced to do something I don't want to hear in a convicing way.
Or they have to keep the same back up scum reads up which I'd find suspicious.

All this assumes a flip I don't think will happen occurs.

[Hayasaka]

I think we just go back to the original point I made at the very start of.
Does NM ever make it to a F3 and not get lynched by the town if he has a green role pm.

And my answer to that question is no.

Like if Amy is scum the day 2 vengeful isn't the only way she will ever die, I don't know why Gamma thinks if we shoot NM and see him flip town then we are just fucked and lose the game on the spot.

[Hayasaka]

I never said I didn't think I could vote off Amphy, I only agreed with FL on the premise of the idea that clearing FL and NM would be a good reason to eliminate Amphy if she was scum
And you didn't really do a good job making it clear you weren't being serious

Gamma I can literally find the post where you agreed with FL when he said he wants to shoot Amy because she is hard to fade.

[Hayasaka]

Amy I am tilted on your behalf right now.

[Hayasaka]

Tbh, I would have prefer an NM gladiate to an obvtown Pepper one or even executing him the old fashioned way but since we’re very likely killing a town slot in Pepper, it significantly increases the stakes, if NM is also town.

I mean we spoke it about it and a vast majority of the list including pepper agreed it was the right call.
I also think he only became obvious town just now.

We can always no fade or fade me if you truly hate this.

[Hayasaka]

If we all want to play that way @DrP.
If you don't shoot NM then I am gladiating first post tomorrow.

See how this doesn't work?

Regardless of flip? How does that not factor into your decision at all?

~M

Afaik he was only obv town day 2.

I mean at this point the only thing I see is that NM could be town if he gives a crap about the game, which, noting on his posting now, could be why NM is scum the more I think about it

Thank you

VOTE: DrP

[Hayasaka]

Me to Claire: "I'd care about your game more but Not_Mafia into FL basically always wins the game"

[Hayasaka]

Why does FL potentially being town magically make his read on Amy correct?

[Hayasaka]

That's hammer submit your venge.

[Hayasaka]

DrP you sure the mod isn't waiting for you to submit your venge in twilight?
Wouldn't hurt to just do it to be safe >_>

[Hayasaka]

Wait I am genuinely curious how I am mech cleared.

[Hayasaka]

I lean on it being Gamma/NM now. I scum read FL because I found a lot of evidence of him either wanting to or talking about utilizing quick hammers as scum.
With minimal evidence of him wanting to do it as town, when I should have found 3x as many instances of town him doing it.

But his role made him want to be on the wagon so I sorta get it?

[Hayasaka]

@Hayasaka - how many town games of mine did you look through? I'm guessing zero based on that ignorant line you pushed.

I put the word quick hammer into your site wide ISO.
I asked you a question about in thread and you ignored it.

But ok I am the problem I guess.

[Hayasaka]

FL can you find me town games where you quick hammer?
I don't want to see a threat, I want to see you do it.

How is it my fault you ignored this?

[Hayasaka]

Calling me ignorant when you can't read the first post of the day.
Oh my.

[Hayasaka]

Sorry that was pretty feisty relative to the comment you made.

[Hayasaka]

I’m a bus driver

Have fun.

Targets?

[Hayasaka]

People who self vote typically do it as both alignments.
Not to mention it isn't a self vote, every scum technically is only trying to appeal to exactly DrP right now.
The immediate future cares about no one else.

[Hayasaka]

I am not smart enough to be able to figure out how scum Gamma would try and play around exactly DrP.

[Hayasaka]

I am the Emperor

[Hayasaka]

Not saying we should all flavor claim, I am just already claimed so I might as well say my flavor if it's relevant to someone.

[Hayasaka]

The amount people will jump through hoops to town read someone that isn't playing.
Magical really.

[Hayasaka]

I am literally saying Gamma/NM and idk why killing NM so so hard.

[Hayasaka]

Can you claim why role blocking me is somehow relevant to your role?

[Hayasaka]

Like with 1 scum alive you do realize a roleblock is a clearing actions.
In which case your wasting it if you think I am town.

[Hayasaka]

Also why block me in particular?
If it's my position on the wagon I could just unvote.

Really I want you to explain this because it makes no sense why you can't roleblock someone like Gamma.
Why _me_ in particular the one person with a claimed positive action is needed to be roleblocked.

And who did you roleblock last night?

[Hayasaka]

And you can't use your first vote on no fade?

[Hayasaka]

I don't see why you'd have a role that would just disable you from going no elim.

[Hayasaka]

can you vote no elim under a gladiate?

also scumslips aren't real

also also tris and i apparently have the same role flavor

so that's interesting.

My gladiate leaves it open as an option.
Typically it isn't, but might as well take advantage of what we have.

[Hayasaka]

You're ignoring a established meta case that NM is a player that as town will both state reads and will be able to do so at a pretty decent accuracy.
Whether or not anyone cares he is able to state reads at some level of accuracy doesn't change the fact that as town having good reads is something he does and likely is something he gives a shit about.

The fact that you think him sitting here doing nothing for 2 phases is an element of his town game is not only an insult to all of us in this game. It is especially an insult to NM who you apparently believe this is in line with his town play.

I also just don't see how it's surface level to say this, when your read boils down to "as scum he would do more and not die" with no relation to his interactions with the flipped scum.

[Hayasaka]

Idk I just don't understand how you can have such a strong desire to defend NM here, I don't think him flipping scum makes you bad or the same thing if he flips town.
I just don't see how with 0 relation to the flipped scum and the linked past NM games as scum you can just look at this case and this it's just total garbage with no bearing on anything.

Unless you really just are that convinced Amy is scum, which tbf is a world I can't relate to because I hard TR the slot.

[Hayasaka]

It's funny how FL accidently saved the town.
I tracked Amy to Tris.

Someone think about that for me before I gladiate

[Hayasaka]

My emotional switch from "fucking FL was inting as well look at that flip"
To "OH SHIT EASY"

Was very magical

[Hayasaka]

I have a neighborhood with Tris.

I claimed my track to Tris post deadline so I can't slow roll that result unfortunately since Tris already knows what I am doing.

I told Tris some stuff only certain people can validate if she died to prove FL role. I said I have sent Nancy :cooldoge: before on discord (I mainly remember her asking why it didn't work for her)

@Amy I told Tris the code words "requiem" and "standstill" please if I don't die just tell FL other code words based on those and what word claire would use to describe me, pertaining to a tier list. Those feel the easiest but feel free to be creative.

[Hayasaka]

It is really funny how I tracked Amy to prove her innocence. And I wanted to make it up to people if I was wrong cause I can't just gladiate with 0 care for anyone elses reads.

You didn't die in vain Amy

[Hayasaka]

A busdriver couldn't stop my track it wouldn't work the way you guys think it would.

If Tris was bus driven then my track would tell me the name of the scum anyway.

[Hayasaka]

If I was busdriven off of Amy my pm wouldn't state "Amy went to Tris"'
It would say "JJH went to Tris"
If Tris was bus driven and Amy redirected someone else.
It would say "Amy went to JJH"

I think it's just a guilty unless scum shot Amy, which is stupid play.

[Hayasaka]

Like can you explain to me how you think Amy died relative to my night action result and Amy's role?
I'll double check with the mod to be safe.

[Hayasaka]

I have near certainty without mod confirmation, whoever I targeted through a bus driver hit Tris.
I'll make sure getting the word "Ampharos" in my result meant I actually hit them.

[Hayasaka]

Ultimately it's Tris or Gamma today.
I am not lynching anyone else based on my result.

[Hayasaka]

It is definitely possible that Gamma self-directed a bus with Amy however but I kind of doubt it. I think if Gamma did a self-directed bus, it would have been most likely with a player who was actually investigatable by us and that 100% would obviously not have been Amy.

So I don’t think Amy was a bus drive.

I didn't consider this.
Amy wasn't a bus drive target.

I am probably just gladiating Tris once Gamma confirms his bus drive targets.

[Hayasaka]

You have an inno on Gamma right now correct?
Which means Gamma couldn't have bus driven either Tris or Amy with himself.

Which means either my result on Amy and Tris is truthful as it wasn't interfered with.
OR your result on Gamma is truthful in which case I can act based on his proclaimed bus drive targets.

[Hayasaka]

Keep in mind the 2nd outcome doesn't always end in us eliminating Tris.
We need Gamma.

VMP the role is "redirect all of your targets actions to yourself" what this means is whoever Amy targeted submitted a killing action.
My read on Amy not being night killed literally ever because flavor leaf is just town and that 1v1 is way too pro scum. Far outweighs however I feel about Tris.

[Hayasaka]

You have an inno on Gamma right now correct?
Which means Gamma couldn't have bus driven either Tris or Amy with himself.

Which means either my result on Amy and Tris is truthful as it wasn't interfered with.
OR your result on Gamma is truthful in which case I can act based on his proclaimed bus drive targets.

I mean, ScumGamma would just lie, so I don’t get this train of thought.

If it's scum Gamma then he has to bus drive himself with someone without a hood to turn up innocent.
In which case he couldn't have targeted either Amy or Tris.

Gamma being inno'd here sort of breaks this open.

[Hayasaka]

Tris and Amy, my 2 targets both have hoods.
Which means neither are viable targets for a scum wanting to use a bus driver as a godfather since swapping yourself with a miller is kinda throwing.

[Hayasaka]

I could see scum killing Ampharos to make me look worse, which does incriminate both Gamma and Tris. Someone pushing a town read on me might have done it specifically so the rest of the game would push at me.

I mean if any scum killed Amy.
It's exactly Gamma.

In which case it's back to where I started of "This result means we kill Gamma or Tris."

[Hayasaka]

I mean Amy was just town by play pretty much the entire time.
I only targeted her to defend her, a track in this game state was never definitive lol.

[Hayasaka]

[quote="In post 2223, jjh927"][/quote]


Thank you.

[Hayasaka]

I mean Amy was just town by play pretty much the entire time.
I only targeted her to defend her, a track in this game state was never definitive lol.

Then why did you track her?

Because you spent the entire phase calling everyone bad and saying Amy was scum. The action had 2 purposes, I wanted to give you a chance and I wanted to use a non definitive result to give me fuel to protect Amy.

[Hayasaka]

Like FL I wanted to either be wrong on Amy with a result which was probably the only way I changed my mind.
Or I could use that result to run around screaming Amy is actually just town and I can gladiate to saver her all game.

I basically always won.

I didn't target Gamma because he had a cop going on him so it would have been a waste of an action.

[Hayasaka]

OH I CAN QUOTE A POST NOW

[Hayasaka]

I am the Emperor

yeah that tracks

This messed me up ngl.
I know she didn't mean I was a tracker.

But I was set back anyway.

[Hayasaka]

The "I do" felt fake from the moment I saw it tbh.
But my role has so many moving parts I didn't think anything of it.

I should have doubted it more when I had to dm claire on discord "If you see that pm I know it might be fake but I have no reason to not do it" so she wouldn't ask wtf I sent her which would out Tris.

[Hayasaka]

Ok so Amy spotted scum.
I did the god track.

ME AND AMY WERE THE CARRIES ALL ALONG EZ CLAP.

[Hayasaka]

I mean Amy flipped town so more like 2 for 3.

[Hayasaka]

Nah tbh you played well this game.
I really only got defensive cause you were pushing Amy in particular.
There is a limited number of players I can see getting aggressively pushed and actually care lol.

[Hayasaka]

My role has anti synergy with FL's role which made me not question Tris role since we could just be a game of roles that hurt other roles.
But Tris literally has the counter to the town cop.

Which another thing to keep in mind.

[Hayasaka]

I think Gamma is scum but Amy wasn't a deflector

[Hayasaka]

Every even night you may target 1 player and actions they perform will target you instead

A Deflector is a role that takes all actions that target one player at Night, and redirects them so that they target a second player instead.

[Hayasaka]

If Gamma is claiming Odd night.
Can someone explain to me the outcome he comes up both inno here and Tris is scum.

Please do not use the following statement "scum shot Amy" in that explanation.

[Hayasaka]

Like idk I was hoping Gamma would mess up and create a pool of 3 that has 2 scum in it lol.
Unfortunate but Tris is just near 100% scum now I think.

[Hayasaka]

Like more what I am communicating is, I think it should always be Tris.
And most of the time also be Gamma.

What target makes Gamma both clear and Tris inno?
I think none idk.

I think Gamma self redirected to a town.
And I saw 2 people who didn't interact with each other.

If Gamma bounced with Amy my track would see Gamma and I would see 2 targets.

[Hayasaka]

Why does scum see a claimed cop.
A claimed "probably cop" in the form of me.

Then go "ah yes let's shoot the neighbor"


No matter how good you think you are with words after Amy dies, you lose to 2 incoming results idk.
Unless it's Tris who knows I am a tracker in which case guess Tris got unlucky anyway?

[Hayasaka]

Why does gamma have to have interacted with them at all?

Gamma is clear via the cop role?
Or am I wrong on that.

[Hayasaka]

VMP you did target Gamma last night right?

[Hayasaka]

I literally claimed a modifier that DIDN’T ALLOW ME to act last night
Are you saying I’m lying? Because I said why lying made no sense, my role has similar function to Amphy’s, and odd-night means whenever I can’t act she can and vice versa.

I am saying whether or not you are lying Tris is scum so I don't care?
Why are you offended I am considering both worlds lol.

[Hayasaka]

He easily could have bus driven themselves onto one of the others. I don’t know why you’re straight up believing Odd-Night.

Because if he self redirected onto a player without a hood.
Then we know both neighbors were not a target of the bus driver.
Meaning my result can be taken at face value.


What part of this is me missing obvious mechanics?

[Hayasaka]

Like you keep saying I am missing obvious mechanics.
But you aren't spelling out to me the world in which my result happens with a scum gamma.

And I am spelling out to you how it doesn't happen.

[Hayasaka]

Like how is Tris being framed I guess?
The only arguments you are laying out is Gamma is scum lying.

But then my result isn't interfered with.

I am not saying Gamma is clear I am saying Tris is scum regardless of Gamma's alignment since his bus drive was tied up defending himself.

[Hayasaka]

No you are not. You are actively ignoring the fact that Ampharos could have just been shot and killed.

You're right scum don't kill cops, they kill neighbors....

[Hayasaka]

I mean whatever I guess?
I feel like you are being contrarian because you can given you have scum read Tris literally all game.

And I don't feel like arguing why scum would shoot the claimed power of the neighbor further because apparently scum in your game think they can beat roles with day play.

[Hayasaka]

advanced prod dodging tactics GO