Mini 2167: Illicit Substances Mafia (Game Over!)

[zMuffinMan]

i feel depressed

i even said my biggest pursuit in life was to say "hi guys" before cabd

[zMuffinMan]

er... i think i signed up for the wrong game anyway

when nacho first mentioned the flavour, i thought this was gonna be about a time he, like, went on vacation somewhere overseas and got pulled aside by a customs officer for bringing cough medicine with him that was illegal in that country or something... instead it appears to be about an entirely different kind of... illicit drug trip

not sure how i feel about this

[zMuffinMan]

o well. i shall perservere

because even when a mafia game deals you the shittiest hands imaginable and shits in your mouth you need to spit it out and turn it to gold or some shit because not doing so means that you aren't even playing mafia, you're just suffering through it

-confucius

[zMuffinMan]

Hey muffin, you should definitely read into post 14, and spend twenty pages of your notes PT waffling on if i'm actually blatantly crumb-claiming or not on page one. It'll be fun!

i'm not silly enough to read into something so insignificant... ... ... but i do find it interesting that you mentioned my name a rather large number of times before i'd even posted

[zMuffinMan]

fun fact: i had zero idea what any of the words in my role name meant so i had to google them

[zMuffinMan]

i can't tell if people are still doing rvs votes. i think both morph and something_smart might actually be scum

[zMuffinMan]

i think this avatar was from when i started an in-thread hydra with Brian Skies. him with his isaac avatar and me with this miria one. iirc it worked out ok except the shitty mod (fakegod) closed our hydra PT each night

[zMuffinMan]

hm. gif hydra and noddy hydra seem ok to me so far. fferycabd still not so much. bell's okish too

[zMuffinMan]

i feel like i'll get some town reads for saying fferycabd is my strongest scum read so far

going against the grain usually makes people town-read you i think?

[zMuffinMan]

i am not read up on recent pages

have fferycabd figured out noddy is town yet or are they still pretending he could be scum?

[zMuffinMan]

I told cabd that not townreading me when you came back would be a scumclaim.

have you done anything town?

[zMuffinMan]

i don't see anything town in it so far

i'm at p15 now. do you start being town later?

[zMuffinMan]

#554 was written at 2020-09-21 09:20:19

[zMuffinMan]

You don't need any more pages.

oh, good!

what are your current reads? (don't care about whether you've S Y N C E D on them)

[zMuffinMan]

do a consolidated list please, you're all about effort in this game, shouldn't be too hard

also out of interest, why did you think i would scum read you if i were scum?

[zMuffinMan]

way to meet my reach out with a hand slap

i already was asleep for the day but now i have to go back and cry myself back to sleep

[zMuffinMan]

the sheer burning happiness at getting a town role pm after days of fearful anticipation would be readily apparent

heh

[zMuffinMan]

i will say that i considered you being giddy as one of the reasons i *might* be incorrect in my impression, but i still haven't seen anything town

[zMuffinMan]

to be clear, i think pretty much everything you've written so far has come across as forced. questions like 215 are a pretty good example of this, but just in general i think you're trying way too hard to be present rather than doing anything that seems town. i think some of your other questioning is 'fair', but not town-looking

and i don't know how you still don't have a town read on noddy lol, and i completely disagree with bork thinking you taking a 'nacho' approach to them now is a good sign

[zMuffinMan]

i mean i just gave you an example of a question that was forced

let's put it this way, i don't believe any answer that was given to that question was going to really tell them anything about something_smart and i don't think they actually thought it would so it just looks like they felt compelled to question something without even thinking about why it matters

which is a theme in a lot of their posts so far

also i think their initial suspicion on noddy was forced too, for a lot of the same reasons

[zMuffinMan]

oh, the initial reach outs to me also felt pretty forced, like i dunno what that was about, but again, i was chalking this up to *maybe* just being giddy about the player list

[zMuffinMan]

oh right, you called noddy scum after 154 specifically

and then later tried to justify it with "something is missing" and not being paranoid about you rofl

i initially thought it had something to do with my name being in that list, but you later said it wasn't

[zMuffinMan]

I... don't follow this in the slightest. I would assume that they asked that question because my answer was vague and they wanted to know what I meant. Without knowing what the answer is, how can they know if it will tell them anything about me?

because taking a step back, anyone could have figured out what you meant without needing to question you

there was nothing vague about it

(and even if they didn't know what you meant, any answer you gave wasn't going to tell them anything about your alignment)

but let's run with this and assume they thought it would: do you think they learned anything about you from your answer? or do you think they expected a different answer that would tell them something about you?

[zMuffinMan]

see, i read posts like 618 and the first word that comes to my mind: forced!

also, i apparently thought fferycabd's line of questioning re:plusjoyed also felt forced

i think i've used the word forced a lot more than i'd care to admit

[zMuffinMan]

i didn't like 161 or 192 ftr

forced

[zMuffinMan]

i don't like ffery's noddy push either and i legit don't know how you don't have a town read on him yet

[zMuffinMan]

i don't think you've overcome your ability to hate your existence in any game you're scum

mostly because i was talking to fakegod about some game he ran recently where kuribo called you scum from d1 and i read part of it as a result

[zMuffinMan]

There are some huge things missing from your play, and paranoia or lack thereof about zmuffin is rather low on my list.

this is what you wrote

and doesn't explain how knowing #154 was a noddy post resulted in a scum read

[zMuffinMan]

wanted to come back to this quick - I want to qualify this with that if this is Morph/Secret team then that's out the window. But I definitely see town morph (ffery) in particular wanting to give someone room to play normally and make their alignment apparent more than i do scum backing off a very ME-able secret tunnels

i disagree that noddy is all that easily wagoned as town? especially in a game where a lot of people know how he plays? that's why i think them backing off and giving the excuse of a 'nacho' approach is pretty much their only option if they're scum. i mused about this a bit, but i don't think they have the confidence to pull off a noddy wagon unless certain other people are strongly scum-reading him

[zMuffinMan]

i apparently thought 252 and 255 were pretty good posts

and i apparently thought 254 and 256 in response were pretty awful

you might even say... forced?

[zMuffinMan]

i'm reading your posts, i just don't really care about your read on me lol

[zMuffinMan]

No, not my posts about you. My posts about morph in relation to your posts about morph.

i don't know what you're specifically referring to but i also probably don't care about it

not trying to offend you or anything, i just don't really put much stock in anything i've seen you write so far about them

though you're free to town case them if you want, just don't expect me to address it

if they happen to be town, i'll (probably) figure it out eventually

maybe

[zMuffinMan]

I'm putting a lot of effort into replying to you right now because I would hate to get a bad read of you much more than I'd hate it if this is town you getting a bad read on me.

don't see why this matters all that much to you?

it's not like you're going to vote me D1 anyway, so why do you even care about a 'bad read' on me less than 1 RL day into a game rofl

like if you're town, it shouldn't really matter unless you realistically expect there's some chance i'm going to be run up D1 so why do you even care?

[zMuffinMan]

if you are so aware of previous encounters with scum-me, that makes me more interested in knowing why you thought i'd call you scum this game if i were scum

because, like, it'd be pretty easy for me to just agree with general consensus about you and ignore you if i'm scum rofl

or serenade you with compliments so you ignore me

on the other hand, i don't understand what gave you the impression that i'd think you're town if i'm town? because that's clearly not meta-based, even ignoring the fact that we're both coming back from like a 2-year hiatus

[zMuffinMan]

i asked fferycabd to summarise their current reads. most of the reads they've actually put forth are from early on and there's been a whole ton of pages in between, so other than their current noddy read still being scum (lol) i don't know what their current reads are

[zMuffinMan]

is there a reason you're being secretive about what your current reads are (in full), fferycabd?

[zMuffinMan]

for convenience AND

amusement

you say that now. but i feel like anyone who has any knowledge of how i abuse PTs wouldn't (or shouldn't) say that. at first, maybe, but if ever i don't leave a mod feeling like they want to put themselves out of their misery, i haven't done my job in a PT

[zMuffinMan]

i doubt it

[zMuffinMan]

i believe you mean piqued your interest

not sure if you're scum for making that grammar error or not, but igmeou

FoS: Alisae

[zMuffinMan]

We're not going to try to read here yet. Cooldown needs to happen because ffery is all over the place about zmuffin's push.

how boring. i wanna see the all over the place stuff

[zMuffinMan]

the ridicule and shutting me down is new

what ridicule and what shutting you down?

you mean your noddy read?

because i still think that's pretty bad

[zMuffinMan]

tbh im out of the loop with scum noddy but even apart from the fact i think i can read him based on demeanour and based on his approach to scum hunting (or rather, town hunting), he just seems pretty town so far

so i see you going "oh woe is me, he didn't mention being paranoid" and i just think "so what? is that it? was that the entire reason you had a full-on scum read on him after 6 pages?"

[zMuffinMan]

oh, and that's another example of why i think it sounded f o r c e d

because i could see questioning him based on that and thinking it felt off... i know you've done that with me in the past when you thought something was odd about my play. neuroscience comes to mind there. or i dunno, this game

but scum-reading noddy because he didn't include some line about being paranoid when he was giving

town reads

? ? ?

i could see you making a logical leap and thinking "i'd totally be wary of this as town" but i struggle to see why you'd leap to a scum read based on that and that alone

[zMuffinMan]

that last line is poorly phrased

i struggle to see why you,

as town

, make that leap

i can see why you,

as scum

, would make that logical leap and not realise how out of place it was

also... you and cabd synced on that, what did cabd agree with?

[zMuffinMan]

I don't like muffins' morph push it doesn't feel like a push coming from a villager that wants to be right but rather scum who is just trying to maybe turn morph into a lynchable slot

i'm pretty sure i'd never bother doing that as scum, in much the same way i am pretty sure if morph is scum, they're not even going to bother trying to get a wagon going on me and even if one does develop, they'll be nowhere to be seen on it

no point risking looking bad on something you know is flipping town, especially if you know the slot is going to make it hell for you going down

there's no reward for the risk

that's what night kills are for anyway

(and yes, i'm just saying this to make them think i'm town for pushing them by pretending i wouldn't bother as scum)

[zMuffinMan]

usually when i'm town, scum who know me leave me alone unless a significant portion of the town is already scum-reading me for whatever silly reason (like dunnstral the double-voter in that one fakegod game where he hard-defended mariar from cupcake and me)

it's far easier to deal with me by just hoping i'm either incorrect or not loud enough to make them dead, before silently killing me off at night - i've been pretty low prio for doc actions in a lot of games (though surprisingly good watcher-bait. can't even count the number of times scum have been caught due to a watcher on me. PYP6, magical girls, minuet's trio in recent memory, and a ton of other older ones too)

mostly i'm just

using this post to brag

trying to say that my approach to fferycabd as scum if they're town is probably going to be similar to what i think their approach to me is going to be in the opposite situation - just ignore the threat and make it dead at night

[zMuffinMan]

i'm saying all that partially to mind-fuck fferycabd if they're actually town but also partially so people remember that if i mysteriously get deaded night one

[zMuffinMan]

but scum-reading noddy because he didn't include some line about being paranoid when he was giving town reads ? ? ?

I can see ffery doing this

but on one hand you're upset that they went after noddy for something so flimsy
and on the other you're upset that they backed off the pressure at a certain point

-b

those are two separate instances that are like 10 pages apart...

[zMuffinMan]

to be clear, i dont really believe both ffery and cabd came to the conclusion that noddy was scum because he didn't add a footnote about ffery paranoia when giving town reads. i also don't believe they thought they could push that wagon through and still look good so using the "nacho" approach as an excuse to back off was pretty much their best option if they are scum

could they do it as town too? sure. but im struggling to believe they dont see anything town from noddy hydra unless they just haven't been reading their posts

[zMuffinMan]

my 3 am brain was, without actually looking at the thread, thinking very similar thoughts about a fairly wide swath of game stuff that zmuffin hasn't posted about, while spending most of his time negging us.

interesting

have you talked to cabd about this? and if so, what did he say?

ftr, i have fully formed thoughts on a lot of people in this game. i also have scum reads outside of you

i am mostly interested in who says what about them before i do anything with them, but ill throw you a bone here and just ask outright: is there a reason why you haven't talked about alisae (especially the catchup posts) in recent pages?

and as a general question to anyone who cares to answer: what is the major problem with 955?

[zMuffinMan]

wait there was a gamestart PM?

[zMuffinMan]

that wasn't the issue anyway

[zMuffinMan]

the issue is why would scum-alisae be here at game start if alisae had no knowledge of the game starting

[zMuffinMan]

I assume because e'd be active in the scum PT and eir partners would point it out?

depends on who alisae is scum with but also i just dont think it's very common for people to say "hey the game has started" in a scum PT

it might take a while for that to even become a thing that scum knows about unless someone immediately mentions "X posted Y"

[zMuffinMan]

if they copy pasted "zmuffin man" into the list of recipients for the game start PM, and didn't realise there's no space. i'm going to laugh

[zMuffinMan]

You mean the Alisae we've been in convo with in this thread?

not the same thing

[zMuffinMan]

how did you read that as a defense of alisae? rofl

[zMuffinMan]

im literally saying the post alisae made about being here if scum makes no sense because either alisae didn't know the game had started and therefore itd be no different as scum or alisae did know and 955 makes zero sense

[zMuffinMan]

also if there was a game start PM that just further reinforces the idea that scum wouldn't have talked about the game starting and so alisae as scum wouldn't have known at least until a partner wrote something about ingame content

955 just looks like the kind of post id make as scum if i wasnt really thinking about it properly but i thought people might think "oh yeah that makes sense"

also if you think that FoS post was in any way serious, then uh... i dont know what to say

[zMuffinMan]

i can't tell if people are still doing rvs votes. i think both morph and something_smart might actually be scum

This could be a way of discrediting because Morph was starting to gain momentum, and SS was getting targeted.

I could be off on the timeline.

you think my aim was to discredit fferycabd by asking if a possible RVS vote on them was serious?

[zMuffinMan]

no, something_smart, because if alisae is town then alisae didn't know the game had started and wouldn't think "as scum, id know though"

[zMuffinMan]

what an awful read. it's funny, because i think you were doing pretty well until you started suspecting me and bork hydra

[zMuffinMan]

it's awful because you clearly have no ability to read the intention behind any of my posts so you come to incorrect conclusions

people can be wrong and not awful; for example, i think bell thinking my attack on morph was bad is wrong but not awful

youre trying to dissect my posts in a way that shows a complete inability to read intent, tone, etc

that's what makes it awful

[zMuffinMan]

april, the fact that you even mistook the FoS vote as a serious vote shows you don't have the ability to discern when i'm saying something in jest and when i'm being serious about something, which means i already know you're off base in being able to read my tone - it doesn't matter if you took that back. the fact that you thought me asking whether a potential RVS vote on fferycabd was serious might have meant i was trying to discredit them on page 3 and the fact that you agreed with plusjoyed's wall on me tells me you have zero idea how to read the intent behind my posts - also the mistake you made with thinking i was defending alisae, even if you also took that back, compounds this

and the fact that you're clearly misreading the intent behind me pointing out your read is awful also compounds this

[zMuffinMan]

you know what the difference between you and plusjoyed is? i thought you were doing ok until you started veering off

that's also what makes it particularly awful

sad

[zMuffinMan]

i don't really care about the vote, it's more the fact that up until you started suspecting me and bork, you were the person i thought was most accurate in this game. i even wrote as much in my PT. then you started veering off. you're reading that as me being upset about a single extra vote (which again, shows you don't understand my intent)

[zMuffinMan]

fun fact: i have never and will never use "FoS" in a serious manner - FoS is a joke concept

that should tell you everything you need to know about that post

[zMuffinMan]

do you think that's actually a contradiction cabd?

[zMuffinMan]

(which again, shows you don't understand my intent)

What is your intent?

this is such a bad question that i cannot believe you actually felt compelled to ask it

Do you like the rest of April's reads so much?

how much of this conversation have you actually read?

[zMuffinMan]

i mean, i quite clearly stated i thought april was on the right path before he started suspecting me and bork

so

put two and two together

[zMuffinMan]

i mean, that's not why you suspect me so i don't understand the question

[zMuffinMan]

you said you agreed with plusjoyed, particularly the point about the 'monologue' and you quoted a bunch of posts

so

why do you think i'm scum if that wasn't it?

[zMuffinMan]

ffery, asking that question about intent when what i was referring to was clearly in that same post just makes me think it wasn't a real question

[zMuffinMan]

I do agree. It does look scummy.

see, that's the problem

that series of posts was almost entirely designed to fuck with fferycabd's head regardless of their alignment

because it's technically true that i probably wouldn't read them like this if i were scum and they were town

and therein lies the game

(not everything i do in a game is uh... optimal play... sometimes i just do things for my own amusement and if it leads down a good path then that's just a bonus)

[zMuffinMan]

i'm like 69th level yomi-ing them, as a certain person might put it

[zMuffinMan]

people overrate my scum game a lot

i'm very easy to read

[zMuffinMan]

i was being serious

my scum play is all about narrative and paths to victory

it's easy to see through that as a body of work, even if any individual post doesn't tell the story

i was being serious that i wouldn't approach you like i have in this game if you were town and i were scum

the "mind fuck" part of it is that we both know i know this, so even though it's true, if you happen to be town, there's probably some small "but what if...?" thing at the back of your head

but it is true

[zMuffinMan]

fferycabd,

also if you want to know why i am still not town-reading you, it's because nothing you've done so far is something i think deviates from how you'd play this game as scum. since you asked about that a few pages back

your approach to me isn't outside my expectations here

and you keep asking questions that just look ok on the surface

and i'm monitoring how you're interacting with other people i think are scum and nothing outside of the realm of possibility there either

so

there

if you are town, take it as a badge of honour that i rate your play that highly though. you're not as easy to read as some other people

[zMuffinMan]

i'm not in condescending mode rofl

why do people have so much trouble reading my tone

nothing in this game has made me upset. and nothing i've written was meant to be condescending

[zMuffinMan]

literally have no idea what you're even talking about cabd

[zMuffinMan]

i don't really care if you want to work with me, but also don't really understand what you're referring to

[zMuffinMan]

You're doing your shit where you play chess in your PT and checkers in the game thread like you did in dancegame, but then you expect everyone else to have the time and effort to connect the dots between the two.

that's not what i'm doing here

my PT has less stuff in it than you're probably guessing it does, though it's true i've been organising thoughts there more than in game

there's no chess there, checkers here though

[zMuffinMan]

@cabd,
oh you mean because i asked you to connect the dots with the april thing?

i guess that's partially an issue with me not thinking about others not keeping track of people's reads lol

not a chess checkers thing

april's scum pool before adding me/bork was alisae/prism/mariar. i said i liked this before he added me/bork to it

[zMuffinMan]

when you have tried reaching out to me? you should know my time zone and know that the thread explodes when i'm not even here so if this actually has happened, i may just not have read it

[zMuffinMan]

if you say stuff like when you asked "what is your intent?" then i'm just going to say i don't think that was a good question and that's why i ignored it. the intent i was referring to was clearly written about earlier in that post (i.e. that i was disappointed with april suddenly adding me/bork when i thought he was on the correct path, and april read that as me being upset about a vote)

[zMuffinMan]

maybe im blind but i still dont know what you're referring to

i don't remember you ever asking me about reads or anything so not sure what you're expecting from me

also, i never meant to imply that you couldn't have concerns about noddy early on. i meant that i don't believe that your hard scum read of noddy at p6 felt genuine. you've never struck me as the type to be that confident about reads that early, though feel free to point me to a game where you've done something similar

[zMuffinMan]

i thought your approach to noddy would have been wariness but not an outright scum read, and probing but not a hard vote based on that (even if votes didn't count that early)

also i think a lot of what makes me think noddy is town came after that but you didn't really react to any of it, instead talking about some dance you were doing with him but not about what he was actually writing

[zMuffinMan]

well, you did talk about some stuff he was writing i guess, but i think because i thought there were some pretty strong town indicators in those posts that you were ignoring it looked like you were just not talking about those things as much as i thought you should have AND you clearly didn't think the same was as i did about them since you said in your big reads wall that you hadn't seen anything town from him so uh... that's why i made the remark about not understanding that unless you just weren't reading his posts

[zMuffinMan]

tbh i think ive played like one game with boonskies and thought he was a VI

[zMuffinMan]

this would have been like i dunno 6 years ago though

[zMuffinMan]

I don't expect town you to share them at this point

huh? i share reads all the time (although i don't usually talk about exactly how strong or weak a read is). if i hold anything close to my chest, it's usually my reasoning

granted, i've been pretty reserved with giving scum reads in this game but that's not so much a i-don't-want-to-give-them-no-matter-what thing as an i-want-to-see-what-happens-if-i-don't thing and i didn't really care that much outside of thinking it might be interesting to see who agrees with me without me saying anything about it

[zMuffinMan]

Pretty sure that was mostly Innocent Villager. I jumped on it when I thought Notsci was posting.

ya i was mostly referring to 306 when i said that which came after/amidst a bunch of noddy posts

but ftr i thought the innocent villager posts seemed pretty town too. especially the point blank 'you're tunneling' comment

also, am i meant to be drawing a parallel between your vote on nacho in that game you linked and your noddy vote here? because it doesn't even really look like you said much about thinking nacho was scum in that game?

[zMuffinMan]

honestly wouldn't even guess that was a serious vote

[zMuffinMan]

wtf? no way that was you

you did not write #229 at least, that i'm sure about

or i'm just heaps bad at discerning you from other people

[zMuffinMan]

ffery, i don't know what kind of memory you think i have, but it might surprise you to know i don't remember asking you about one vote in one game 7 years ago

and i meant the posts leading up to the TIP vote in the game you linked (227/228/229 were gif posts and i assume 230 - the TIP vote - was too, as well as the post immediately following it)

[zMuffinMan]

i suppose i should mention, i don't really care whether you have or haven't voted early in another game, i care more about how strongly it looked like you felt about noddy

so your nacho vote in that game, which you said was an invitation, doesn't have the same ring to it?

maybe the disconnect here is that you don't seem to understand how big an issue i have with this:

I’m townreading muffin bear and bell at this point

Is this notsci?

I mistyped flan. Flan>remi

And yes

Which of my townreads is wrong?

I was afraid it was.

VOTE: Notsci

srsvote

[zMuffinMan]

there was no emotion or appeal to it in #1072

people need to stop assigning traits to my posts that aren't actually there

[zMuffinMan]

prism slot was incredibly likely to be town on reread

[zMuffinMan]

i am pretty sure i know what bork means when he says mechanical. as an example, you: "morph is town because writing town things" me: "morph is scum" you: "vote: the cool dude who's super awesome for thinking morph is scum"

(just saying, this is one interpretation of what happened that i think bork may be alluding to - not my personal take on it)

[zMuffinMan]

he sounds a lot more on edge this game

i really should figure out why people are interpreting all my posts so wildly different to how i am actually feeling when i'm writing them

i'm not on edge, though in that game i was probably a lot more jovial for a variety of reasons other than being IC

this game is probably closer to how i would normally play in a game than that one is

[zMuffinMan]

im pretty happy i decided prism was town before that replaced in

[zMuffinMan]

im pretty happy i decided prism was town before that replaced in

Well now that prism's gone can you ELI5?

every post from #454 onward seemed town

[zMuffinMan]

it should be noted that most of the later RBD games (inc that one and tales of you and maybe a couple others) were probably games that were joined because nati said "come play" and i was like "i dont wanna" and then i got made to play because nati looked at me with puppy dog eyes or something

i dont recall being very invested in that game at least

[zMuffinMan]

er, now that i'm slightly less busy

the entire first paragraph of #454 was so town, particularly the first sentence. the rest of #454 was ok too
#481 was town
the challenge morph townread thing was also town
the plusjoyed stuff was town

easy sort

[zMuffinMan]

Seriously, Nacho launching the game super late derailed my entire awesome plan.

1: Propose to muffin that we all massclaim
2: Muffin goes first
3: We decide it's a bad idea after muffin claims
4: We policy muffin for anti-town claiming
5: ???
6: Town wins (Unless we're mafia then mafia wins)

I've got a very limited amount of time to spend on this game at full focus. Stop "fucking with cabds mental state" for the lulz. You're doing nothing but make this game less enjoyable for me and I know you are capable of NOT wasting my spoons on reading your drivel.

these two posts came from the same person

[zMuffinMan]

what was cabd's read on me at the point he wrote 1140?

[zMuffinMan]

"why?" to pretty much all of that

[zMuffinMan]

though feel free to start with your scum reads and the very strong town read on alisae

[zMuffinMan]

what angles has alisae taken?

[zMuffinMan]

eh, i am not in the mood to be subtle here so the follow up question: how does that not depend on who's scum?

[zMuffinMan]

I understand wanting to wait for reactions or get some as it's something I do nearly every game to some extent, but the way they went about it and further explained in posts comes to me in a way that is more likely to come from scum than town

you literally just came out of a game where catboi (town) did the same thing

explain the difference

[zMuffinMan]

i would be surprised if anyone got a town read on alisae from that string of catch-up posts

(excepting plusjoyed, who seems to be viewing this game with backwards goggles on or something)

i can only assume mariar means something further down the line when talking about 'angles'

[zMuffinMan]

most of the people in this player list don't throw their votes around that much in my experience

also there's a certain dynamic that you and april seem to be somehow missing anyway

[zMuffinMan]

heh. your view of the game state is so wildly different from mine. i sincerely doubt you're a priority night kill

and votes are hardly the only way to get reads or the only form of "direct action" lol

[zMuffinMan]

she has a virtually barren ISO and could be scum

why do you think i'm asking her to talk about her reads? lol

[zMuffinMan]

you're welcome

[zMuffinMan]

i haven't voted anyone yet

keeping a pristine voting record in this game

if i vote someone, assume i'm beyond a reasonable level of certainty that they're scum

[zMuffinMan]

are you going to do your scum reads?

[zMuffinMan]

no

which is why they don't really interest me

[zMuffinMan]

*shrug*

there's only like 5 people i'm interested in reading about and one of them is me

[zMuffinMan]

he also left out mariar and technically didn't give a real read on me or something_smart either (and the reads on noddy/plusjoyed aren't technically real reads)

[zMuffinMan]

You’re surface townie, but you scare me.

is it my avatar? i can change it to something more friendly if you want

i was thinking something like this:

Spoiler:

[zMuffinMan]

indeed

[zMuffinMan]

i only chose this one because i decided to hydra with someone in a game and he used to have an isaac avatar

viewtopic.php?t=76536&user_select%5B%5D ... #p10248315

[zMuffinMan]

that in-game-only hydra lasted for two games, but fell apart in the second game when i started hearing voices in my head

[zMuffinMan]

this thread goes quiet in your evening

every night, i contemplate writing 10 pages by myself just to make you all suffer what i have to suffer when i wake up in the morning

[zMuffinMan]

i've done 'towny' posts? tell me where and i'll ask the mod to redact them

[zMuffinMan]

is there a reason your release rate for these chapters is so slow? are you taking a leaf out of GRRM's book, so to speak?

[zMuffinMan]

no, i just want to read the interesting ones

the virtually consensus town reads are boring to me

don't think the game slowed down because of what they're doing lol

[zMuffinMan]

We'll get there. Probably by tomorrow evening.

You might have interest in some of the stuff we'll get to tomorrow.

basically i just want to invoke LAL

[zMuffinMan]

they were never going to be a D1 wagon

even in a universe where i was 99.99% certain they're scum, it'd probably be easier to dismantle the weak links in the scum team before going after them

so

yeah

[zMuffinMan]

I think all three have scum equity

heh

[zMuffinMan]

i was just hehing at how wrong i think you are about all three of those names

but i also think there's some pretty obvious slots (like alisae and mariar) that have far more "scum equity" that you went from thinking were scum to i guess not anymore for some reason?

[zMuffinMan]

he's talked more with bulge than morph lol

[zMuffinMan]

it's easy to slip into that mindset when playing a game with people you haven't played with in ages

especially if you're nostalgic about games when you worked together with them in some way

[zMuffinMan]

I don’t think an ultra self aware scum player would post about their ultra self awareness.

strictly untrue but probably more of a play style thing than an alignment thing. being self-aware means being aware of what talking about being self-aware means

that last sentence may or may not make sense, i am not sure. it made sense in my head though

[zMuffinMan]

probably still town

im way behind in reading stuff in this game outside of a few ISOs i am slowly making my way through

that hasn't been a high prio sort beyond initial impression that noddy seems town enough

[zMuffinMan]

It feels a little odd that you're poking at the theoretical basis of a ST read moving townward.

... sorry, what? if there's anything you should know about me, it's that i like inserting myself in lines of questioning and breaking down reads even if i agree with the conclusion

it's like you've never played with me before

[zMuffinMan]

maybe that would be a slightly valid way of looking at it if i didn't literally just tell april that i doubt he's right about any of those three reads (which included noddy hydra) being right

[zMuffinMan]

you know it's something i do and you know i just shut down someone who called him scum

but you think there's "scum value" in doing it

ok

whatever

[zMuffinMan]

@muffin, do you feel close to making a vote or is that gunna be awhile?

i can't really answer that question except to say that i think there's a decent chance of scum being in {alisae, mariar} and i'll vote when i feel better about who's most likely to be scum there

[zMuffinMan]

i think 420 seems town independent of my prism read

though that may just be me going against the grain again because it's a generally town-looking trait

[zMuffinMan]

admittedly not a strong feeling but still feels ok

[zMuffinMan]

i am somewhat disappointed that nobody commented on the 'catchup' in 1692-1695

or maybe they did and i missed it

or maybe nobody thought it was all that interesting

[zMuffinMan]

i am far too lazy to break down all the issues i have with alisae's posts individually so i will just talk about the methodology: i look at each thing alisae chooses to comment on and ask myself "what value does alisae think was added to the game with this comment/question? what was alisae trying to achieve with this comment/question?"

if you look at alisae's catch up posts from that angle and still think it seems town, then i don't think there's much hope of changing your mind

[zMuffinMan]

only a couple people have expressed a scum read on one or both of you

most of the game hasn't expressed a read on either of you (april, bulge and plusjoyed being the only ones to call you town iirc)

[zMuffinMan]

he has called them town, he later said that

[zMuffinMan]

his latest post about alisae isn't a change in the read, just an admission that he's biased towards the read because he wants alisae to be town

[zMuffinMan]

was hoping alisae would stick around and do something with that

alas

i guess when you get back, alisae, maybe talk about why you care who scum reads mariar

[zMuffinMan]

because whoever has us both as scum would probably be scum?

based on what?

i assume this means you have a town read on mariar?

[zMuffinMan]

low hanging fruit in what sense? does 420 fit that bill? or you don't town read 420 but you do town read mariar?

[zMuffinMan]

i guess it's easier to just ask before i question this any further: what are your current town/scum reads?

[zMuffinMan]

where's the mariar town read come from?

[zMuffinMan]

sorry, which mariar reads are "spicy"?

i take it you're probably not referring to the 69million scoville 420 read, right?

[zMuffinMan]

at the time mariar gave the read, bork hydra was far from a consensus town read. most people did not have bork hydra as town

[zMuffinMan]

you are a in a bit of a weird spot where there were some people calling you town and some people calling you scum but most people hadn't given a read

[zMuffinMan]

i should probably mention i keep a working model of everyone's reads and how they change over the course of the game in my head. i am fairly sure both of those statements are accurate, though feel free to fact check

[zMuffinMan]

but to be clear, you're saying you expected mariar to scum read you if she's scum?

[zMuffinMan]

so just as an experiment in proving my memory isn't faulty.

prior to mariar's reads in 1484, i called bork town, bell said bork was a little townie, fferycabd said they want bork to be town but couldn't commit to that read and april/plusjoyed had expressed some level of suspicion towards bork. the majority of the game had not given an opinion

prior to mariar's reads in 1484, bulge said you're tonally town, plusjoyed called you town, april called you town, the only people expressing any real suspicion of you after you showed up were bork, bell and to a lesser extent memory

so bork was far from a consensus town read and you were far from a popular scum read and you were already getting town reads from other players

so, at least those reads are far from going against the grain and if that's the sole reason you're town-reading mariar then uh... ok

[zMuffinMan]

to a lesser extent me*

[zMuffinMan]

you didn't find any of mariar's posts interesting enough to comment on in your catchups?

[zMuffinMan]

#1918 doesn't look all that different to alisae's own reads, if you ignore the fact that alisae has a ton of nulls and zero scum reads

[zMuffinMan]

i suppose i should ask if alisae's mariar read has changed given the sole reason alisae gave for the town read is invalid

[zMuffinMan]

i should probably mention that i have too many town reads and if one or (especially) both of alisae/mariar happen to be town then i'm going very, very wrong somewhere. i know i'm probably giving someone too easy a town read, just not currently sure who

i am starting the process of a full reset to see if i still reach the same conclusions

[zMuffinMan]

what's your reason for the mariar town read now then, alisae?

[zMuffinMan]

Maybe I just play with myself too much

i did not need this information, noddy

[zMuffinMan]

my mind has been wandering and i started thinking about something somewhat game-related but not really

does anyone know what the scum vs town flavour is in this game?

it's usually pretty clear to me but i just realised i have literally no idea what's 'good' and what's 'bad' in this game

pinky swear i'm not just asking this in the hopes that people will go "omg that's such a town thing to think"

i thought maybe this would be like a "people who support and help each other" vs "people who overcome shit alone" thing but then the flavour in the scum PM is literally "you are not alone" so uh...

anyway, back to ISO-diving

[zMuffinMan]

oh i guess maybe it's optimism vs pessimism or something? maybe

[zMuffinMan]

ffery, i've been deliberately not talking about you more than 'giving you room' really. it just seemed fruitless to clog up the thread with my thoughts on you and how they may or may not have changed, given i was never actively trying to push you

and before cabd complains

(yet again)

, this isn't like a chess-there-checkers-here thing. i

am

keeping a lot of my thoughts on this game contained in my PT, but it's really not part of some grand scheme or anything. it's more that i just want to properly figure out where i stand before i start spamming the game (any more than it's already been spammed... ... ...)

[zMuffinMan]

also, other than the fact that it pretty much always takes me time to warm up in a game and it's not like i have a history of reading you correctly D1 (i think? it's been a while and not something that i prioritise remembering), i think it's kind of silly that you're applying this burden of familiarity (from years ago) in only one direction and ignoring the fact that logically the same should apply to your read on me

i may or may not have started writing this thought like 15 or 20 mins ago before i got distracted by work

[zMuffinMan]

oh

i wanted to do that but uh...

i'll just continue working on my replica then

[zMuffinMan]

i've been meaning to ask since you called something "not TvT" earlier in the game

how do you decide that?

if you're so sure one is town (but you aren't sure who), then why can't both be town?

[zMuffinMan]

see, the only reason i'd personally suggest something might not be "TvT" is if it was based on

people outside the pair conversing

that made me think that way... like if the general reactions felt off for some reason

but it looks like that's not what you're saying, so...

[zMuffinMan]

thinking 420 is town is what makes me so unsure of where scum is if one or both of {mariar, alisae} are town

i guess it seems like an easier solve for people who don't have him as town (ie seemingly everyone else in the game)

[zMuffinMan]

im way behind but skimmed a few things

alisae, can you link me to two more recent town games? i'm too lazy to look it up myself atm and your egosearch is full of non-mafia crap. i'm looking for patterns and 2 scum 1 town isn't enough to establish it

also wondering why BEEBOY doesn't ask MARIAR about her reads instead of asking the thread

ill catch up properly later

[zMuffinMan]

sorry, busy for like the next... 5 hours then i'll try to read stuff, but may not get to it until tomorrow (not working tomorrow!)

skimmed recent pages

re: reset, haven't had time yet
re: why i thought alisae is scum; i really don't like any of the questions/opinions alisae was asking/giving while catching up and this is one of the things i actually wanna look into from a meta point of view. the null hypothesis is basically: "alisae as scum asks pointless questions and makes comments that are basically keeping up appearances; alisae as town asks meaningful questions that helps discern people's alignments" - need to look at more games to establish a pattern though and haven't had time yet

actually i was planning to just strip the questions/comments you make in games, chuck them in spoiler walls, and have people try to guess which alignment you were in each game. then ask them to tell me which one this game looks more like afterwards. but uh... that's effort i prob can't put in until at least tomorrow

(to be clear, this isn't a meta read at all, i just think the things alisae chose to comment on were uh... lacklustre, to put it lightly. and i think a lot of the reasoning for reads and flips on those reads has been pretty meh. wanna put some more thought into this when i have time.)

wanna think about alisae's appeals and whether or not they change my mind. honestly not in a good state of mind for playing mafia atm, will try again later

[zMuffinMan]

i'll be around in approximately 2 hours when work finishes

i'm way behind atm so uh... prob not gonna read from wherever i left off, prob just gonna stick to ISO-dives

skimmed recent stuff. alisae's attitude looks mildly townish tbh. will prob focus on alisae ISO first when i'm back

[zMuffinMan]

clearly all of you have gone quiet in anticipation of my awesomeness

now i'm getting performance anxiety, knowing that you're all still awake, watching the thread silently awaiting my guidance

[zMuffinMan]

suppose we live in a hypothetical parallel universe where alisae happens to be town

who would you think is scum?

[zMuffinMan]

i'm currently reading alisae posts in reverse chronological order and they seem town enough at the beginning... /end

i'm a sucker for lines like "this isn't my scum game" when they're said in a way that looks genuinely frustrated/baffled at where the scum reads are coming from

[zMuffinMan]

ig you must have scum in your townreads then!

and stuff like this reads tonally town

[zMuffinMan]

i don't think i'd classify what i'm reading as ate. just because i'm reading frustration, doesn't make it ate

unless youre referring to something else

which stuff when bulge did what now? make pretend i'm like... way behind in reading this thread and don't know when that occurred

[zMuffinMan]

it's not about the frustration itself

i'm fully aware alisae would be frustrated about the scum reads either way, given not many people are really explaining it

it's more about what alisae's been saying in combination with the frustration

it doesn't look particularly survivalistic. i don't get the feeling that alisae was really trying to avoid dying today so much as getting people to just explain stuff. you can say it's a subtle tactic or something, but uh... it doesn't look that way to me and i think there's way better tactics to avoid dying

[zMuffinMan]

has the mariaboy hydra done anything town yet btw?

i suppose i should prio that after i'm done reading alisae

[zMuffinMan]

SS me dropping down makes no sense

like how is this my scum game

i suppose i should explain by example

i see frustration in this

but

it's not the frustration that i think is town

it's that i think alisae doesn't approach this sort of thing as scum from that angle

it looks like alisae _genuinely_ believes nobody can put forth a good reason in #2830. i don't really think alisae as scum approaches it like that

though if you have meta reasons to think otherwise, i'm open to hearing why i'm reading that incorrectly

[zMuffinMan]

i've been reading that multiball game on the side, it's nothing like this as far as the approach but uh... multiball is probably not the best thing to use as an example of meta anyway

[zMuffinMan]

tbh i don't really care about outing roles so minimising information or whatever isn't a particularly compelling argument for getting rid of someone unless i think there's a decent chance they're scum

i should probably also mention that i have literally zero intention of reading the novel that is morph's ISO (i'm guessing it's gonna be like one of those thick books that sits in the bargain bin because nobody ever wants to slog through it) but i stopped thinking they were scum ages ago

[zMuffinMan]

i literally have 8 tabs of alisae games open atm

and i'm reading little bits and pieces from them all instead of focusing on one

what am i doing with my life?

[zMuffinMan]

i feel like you're severely underestimating how accurate someone can *potentially* be on D1

not that i'm claiming to be that accurate here, but i think i'd still rather go after someone i feel pretty confident is scum than someone who i *might* be wrong about just because they claimed VT

[zMuffinMan]

Subject: BTE: Boon Wars - Attack of the Colognes

Relly still scumreads me
Fucking Chewbaccas

Relly you’re wrong but you don’t want to talk to me about it so...

a relatively similar dynamic and a vastly different approach

entirely different tonally from flat-out believing that, say, something_smart can't give a good reason for thinking this is alisae's scum game

"you're wrong" is so, so weak and if alisae was just doing that sort of thing in this game, i'd be worried

[zMuffinMan]

random note: i think beeboy absolutely hates being scum and likes being town

and i don't believe '100 pages' is the reason he's not participating yet, or that he just joined to be a voice in mariar's head if they're town

[zMuffinMan]

i could make guesses about why beeboy joined but they'd be just that - guesses

doesn't matter anyway, i think it's gonna become more and more obvious over time

[zMuffinMan]

there's zero town content from the posts in that slot though (both after and prior to the replacement)

the closest i can see to town content is the attitude of "id like to see you try" when fferycabd suggested they'd vote mariaboy, but even then, meh

[zMuffinMan]

It was way back, Bulge was coming at me, and Alisae used the time to make an extremely opportunistic potentially momentum swinging vote onto me, and outed themselves, essentially, then they tried to switch momentum away from me because they realize it wasn't gonna happen

i think you might be doing the thing i have done sometimes in the past where i constructed a narrative in my head and pieces fell into place in such a way that the narrative i constructed may be correct but uh... it turned out just to be coincidence

same goes for the whole predicting fferycabd would vote then unvote stuff

actually happened to me just recently in that dance game with predicting something gentleman 2 was going to do but the conclusion was ultimately incorrect

*shrug*

not saying you necessarily are incorrect here (even though i currently think that's the case), but it's easy to fall into the trap of things happening as you think they're going to happen meaning you're correct about why it actually happened

[zMuffinMan]

sometimes i read plusjoyed posts and imagine it comes from like an AI who's at like gen 50 of a neural network learning process that's being fed mafia posts

[zMuffinMan]

i'm more trying to convince myself than you atm

[zMuffinMan]

he's probably town, just the way he forms reads is, uh... unique

[zMuffinMan]

i dunno, plenty of people who are easily readable and sometimes not even all that good at scum have won don corleone

it's not like it's hard to get that scummie rofl

[zMuffinMan]

sometimes i read plusjoyed posts and imagine it comes from like an AI who's at like gen 50 of a neural network learning process that's being fed mafia posts

Sorta, I think he’ll become readable though

SvS reads like a theater if the death tunnel in the policy vote

ive read this post multiple times and can only conclude that one of us is very, very confused and i think it may be me but im not sure

[zMuffinMan]

i mean, cupcake is a previous winner (let that sink in) and i think he's very easily readable. at least, ever since getting to how he plays, I can only recall one time i misread him (when he was town under some weird circumstances). just saying, "don corleone" doesn't make everything someone does potentially some super amazing master scum strategy

i dont really think alisae plays in this way as scum

i could be wrong, but like, "VT to bait people who would say it's not a scum claim" is just silly unless alisae was aiming at certain people who think like that and i don't think that's the case here... equally likely when you don't know how people will react is "it's just a VT at worst, better than having more people claim"

plus the idea that a scum PR claims VT D1 is less likely IMO. scum PRs usually feel pretty safe claiming some variant of their role, if not their role. pretty sure alisae is just a goon if scum