Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Tanner]

ego.

HURT: puppy

[Tanner]

i also Have Thoughs, we should do genocide.

hi!! they say you can't lynch a puppy, but can you Fight a puppy?

[Tanner]

i also Have Thoughs, we should do genocide.

hi!! they say you can't lynch a puppy, but can you Fight a puppy?

(　´_ﾉ` ) Well yes, genocide route is obviously superior and pacifism sucks eggs in this version of the setup, I was just hoping we might get more info by not immediately settling on a path and seeing who people wanted to spare

and i was hoping to see if anyone was gonna fight me (haha get it) about it. oh well.

Hmm what now?

now we play mafia!
HURT: lavender

[Tanner]

now we play mafia!
HURT: lavender

This is town af

pedit: hm. i'll agree.

whichever one of you gives me a better/more convincing/funnier explanation on why you think so gets 5 free TownPoints™ [limited time offer] [batteries not included]

[Tanner]

are you trying to pocket me again? because it's working

[Tanner]

i think a 1 spare route maybe, maybe has merit in certain conditions... are the spared players considered to be "living"?

[Tanner]

yeah, that's what i was thinking, but haven't ran the numbers because lazy.

wanna talk to me about your vote on puppy?

[Tanner]

scum also gets to kill one of the obvtown players each night, so we actually need 7 people to be obvtown... and there's 9 townies in the game. those are... not good odds.

[Tanner]

i think i'm +town on chara. i liked the take in 160, and even though i think i shouldn't be giving townpoints for 146, i still kinda do? the "our scumteam depended on the town frustration from no flips" thing strikes me as a weird thing for scum to write for some reason?

Tanner's above null for now. i don't want to put a lot of weight in where he falls on the spare/fight debate. i have concrete thoughts on this but i want Tanner back in the thread first, so you can ask me again after that happens.

why am i above null for you, assuming it isn't 47? also hi i am back

(ok, ok, besides tanner from earlier i also kind of like pooky, i just think there are some good vibes there. i want to like hectic more than i actually do rn tbh)

can you talk about your ~good vibes~ on pooky? i'm lowkey feeling nervous due to the push for spares

but i think my light tr is also half wanting him to be town so we can play town together as an apology.

<3
also no meme, puppy is feeling different than he did in that game, so guess i'm townreading him!

< obligatory complaint about the mechtalk getting in the way of forming reads here >

[Tanner]

hi tanner! why did you vote Lavender when you did? this question is what i was referring to in 158.

all their their posts up to that point (other than one) were early game shitposting (nothing against that), but once the discussion turned to mech-talk and deciding we should probably be fighting someone today, their "hmm what now?" (46) struck me as insecure scummy in a way? as if they didn't have anything to contribute to the discussion, either mech or gameplay, but also wanted to give an appearance of Being There.

[Tanner]

Puppy moreso than Tanner.

is this because his avatar is cuter than mine? (つ﹏<。)

[Tanner]

i think our reads are ~more-or-less similar. i take that as a good sign? also can you talk about the Prism townread, is there anything other than mech-effort?

HURT: elements

[Tanner]

My reads came after yours though (or at least after most people agreed those few are town), I think they're mostly consensus-y so far tbh. The mech talk is making this a bit tricky for me but I already went over that. I don't have great confidence in my reads as of yet

/shrug, perhaps. let me enjoy the early townblocc while it lasts goddammit

im here to play mafia, and when you all are ready to do that let me know.

bold of you to keep saying how you want to play mafia when the only read you've given so far amounts to "i like this person's avatar".

[Tanner]

(ok, ok, besides tanner from earlier i also kind of like pooky, i just think there are some good vibes there. i want to like hectic more than i actually do rn tbh)

can you talk about your ~good vibes~ on pooky? i'm lowkey feeling nervous due to the push for spares

answer this in the meantime?

[Tanner]

HURT: taylor

[Tanner]

I'm not good with Day 1s ah~
In the End We're Doing 1-3 Spares it Seems? (*o*)?

are you going to at least try to actually play?

i just

this can only end badly. You all realize this can only end badly?

add this to my list of "things i shouldn't give townpoints for but i do anyway"

[Tanner]

Of Course! Just don't expect too much...I'll try y'knowwwww~

when?

[Tanner]

i didn't think i'd ever have the urge to vig 1/3rd of the players in a given game, but it's actually happened.

[Tanner]

i didn't think i'd ever have the urge to vig 1/3rd of the players in a given game, but it's actually happened.

Well, 25% of the players in the game right now are scum, but it's probably not all the non-contributors. It's never that easy...usually.

what if... the scumteam was... exactly taylor/lavender/pooky .. aha ha, just kidding.. unless.. ?

i feel like i'm going back and forth on hectic. i really liked 302 (as it's almost the exact same thought i had upon seeing it) and the fact he's pressuring pooky, but then one person that seems to have experience with him says he's suspicious, then the other person that has experience with him says that's the hectic they wanted to see and sigh. wish

i

knew how to read hectic.

@hectic, do you have a read on me yet?

i hate that at this point i want to townread people (e.g. chara and prism with pooky on this page) just for telling people to

play the damn game

.

[Tanner]

making just one post for this game feels like pulling teeth. someone throw me a question or something.

pedit: ?

[Tanner]

anyway, you wanted a question. it's not game related, but do you mind me asking how long you've been playing mafia for?

technically for ~6 years, though for most of them it was chat mafia. been playing forum mafia for ~1.5 years, and got about 35 games.

[Tanner]

i mean, considering 1/4th of the game is refusing to play...

[Tanner]

i don't think i've seen a single game-relevant post from you, taylor, or pooky. (unless you count the push for spares thing, which i don't.) and all three of you have been asked, some multiple times, to play the game.

and the fact you're here to make that comment but not say anything about literally any other thing that's been discussed is kinda... proving my point?

pedit: okay.

[Tanner]

what if... the scumteam was... exactly taylor/lavender/pooky .. aha ha, just kidding.. unless.. ?

pooky and lavender have decent chance, taylor being standoffish in an antagonistic way is mayyybe town? lavender probably doesn't know how to fake it and pooky is riding the spare thing way too hard

i can mayyybe buy that reasoning to put taylor a bit more towards town than earler, but like... the bar is on the floor.

re: redtea's 384:
yeah, i liked it in a sense of "mindmelding with someone = more likely town", same as with 302. i get that it's a possibly Easy approach. but i don't think i can in good faith scumread him for it when i myself am also struggling to get my bearings in this game, and it's not because of the colour of my role PM. (inb4 i get informed this is a scumslip on my part)

also learn how to link posts

Lavender:
already said I think there's a chance she could just be scum who doesn't know how to fake it. I actually really dislike the tone of 373. However, I feel as though she'd be a waste of a vote today. evaluate on day 2.

why would she be a waste of a vote on day one? do you think it's gonna get *easier* to evaluate a nothing slot on day two?

Here’s a line I always say: Ask me any questions and I’ll answer ^_−☆

what's your opinion on the 17 pages that have happened so far?

okay i see tweet has posted like... a lot of stuff, i will Try to read it

[Tanner]

yay, so many words, my eyes are glazing over.

Sort of slightly want to townread Tanner for the pocketing comments but I love being paranoid of pocketing as scum personally. Hm hm hm!

[snip]

I made a post that sort of just mirrored consensus townreads for the most part, and Tanner TR me off it since our reads were similar. I do feel like that’s not enough to townread me but I am unsure if that’s towny that Tanner is quick to townread me, or if it’s not. Ugh -- I think I like Tanner

i thought the first line was funny because one of the things i consistently forget to do as scum is act paranoid around people i'd be paranoid about as town. anyway.

if you feel that your post shouldn't be enough to make me townread you, why do you come out liking me anyway?

would you say effort is AI for you, tweet?

[Tanner]

i can try to quantify why I like you more when i get access to a pc again proly

i would appreciate that

Tanner is the kind of easily likeable guy I let slip by too easily and is making things hard rn honestly

while i do enjoy being called a likeable guy, is there anything i can do to make things not-hard?

re: lavender's 431:
am i the only one who sees just how many things are wrong with this post?
~ while i know i didn't make it explicit, i think i've made it pretty clear so far that i'm begging certain people to talk about dayplay-related things, and the fact that lavender answers my question going "oh most of the pages so far are mech" is just?? not to mention that that's blatantly false, since there had been

plenty

of non-mech discussion so far?
~ the next line is again, a non-stance on pooky, and calling the 4 spare route fun?? (while in the last paragraph they wrote how they think they have a better understand of the game because of the mech talk?)
~ when asked who'd they fight if they had to, they chose taylor, because mech-talk is apparently not nothing in their opinion, but in the next line they hurt the backup-mod?

in scenario (B) if hectic is scum but we hit 4 town-spares -it won't matter that hectic is scum.

and good scum cannot be townread enough to the point of getting spared because...????

ok other things in a new post

[Tanner]

@tanner

why are you voting taylor? is it just because she's still talking setup/spare stuff, or because you have some stronger scumread? if you did i couldn't find it

it's because she keeps going "yes i will play once you stop talking about mechanics" but we have stopped talking about mechanics a long while ago and started talking reads while she's *still* saying how she needs mafia content to play so... what am i supposed to think exactly?

also i was thinking about spares again. i forgot why we gave up on them. i know it's unlikely that we'll spare correctly 4 times in a row, but is the 4 spare ending really that bad? say there's one scum in finale, wouldn't that be pretty good odds with strong town players? or would paranoia + no flips be too much to overcome?

ok, i'll remind you. (1) in order to win immediately, we need to correctly townread and agree on 7 players. there are 9 town players in the game. those are very bad odds. (2) we have not one, but

two

losing conditions (sparing two mafia/sparing Chara). (3) the game becomes half-flipless. that is a much harder environment to solve in, and then it becomes frustrating and demotivating. (4) if we make it to the end of day 4 and we haven't won yet (or lost), town's EV then becomes 25%. which is already bad enough, but also with the possibility of there being 2 scum in 5 players, which means one wrong vote and gg.

4 spare route is literally shooting ourselves in the foot for no reason.

puppy, can you talk a bit about your read on me? the only *concrete* thing you've said so far (unless i missed something, in which case link me) is that i sound kinda like that game we played together (151)

[Tanner]

Lavender:
already said I think there's a chance she could just be scum who doesn't know how to fake it. I actually really dislike the tone of 373. However, I feel as though she'd be a waste of a vote today. evaluate on day 2.

why would she be a waste of a vote on day one? do you think it's gonna get *easier* to evaluate a nothing slot on day two?

have a theory that she might open up some if she's town or at least give us more to work with if not.

is this theory based on experience...?

oh hey look a serious wagon for once?
HURT: pooky

why are we talking about sparing? didnt we decide that killing was the better option?

we have, except for this one person that keeps pushing it. any dayplay related thoughts?

in Scenario (B) you do not need to exec hectic-scum to win - hence an individually brilliant scum player is not nearly as dangerous

and if that individually brilliant scum player gets spared, which if they're so amazingly brilliant is very likely, then we still need to execute him.

you don't need 7 consensus townreads

you just need 4

scum will kill townread people
like this is not difficult
even if we don't say it aloud which players we're townreading
scum isn't brainless

also i find it funny how me and catboi explained pretty much the same thing at the same time.

[Tanner]

if we're going the 4-spares route, noobs who are blatantly obvtown are like... the perfect nightkill material...

pedit: scum's wincon in that scenario literally is to get spared though?

[Tanner]

r the scum going to kill the brilliant town players who are good at picking out town-tells and sparing the right players or are they going to target fire the noobs townslipping? Can't have it both ways

this is assuming that the brilliant town players who are good at picking out towntells won't pick out the towntells from each other which is... wrong? and why can't i have it both ways exactly, if scum saw the townspewing nweb getting spared, why not shoot them on like night 2 or 3 after taking out a storng town player first? like they can change their strategy for nightkills?

also why do you want to argue about hypothetical scum and hypothetical noobs townspewing themselves when like... nobody has exactly newb-townspewed themselves so far and i doubt that they will?

pedit: scum's wincon in that scenario literally is to get spared though?

yes but think about what a brilliant TOWN player's win con is.

to get spared? to read people correctly and ensure scum isn't spared?

[Tanner]

IYO, does this look like coalition pooky? Because it feels like a similar approach.

i don't know, actually? wasn't he like... giving reads and trying to be townread in coalition? how does it feel like a similar approach?

and to make it clear, i'm not saying "he's not trying to be townread" = "town"

[Tanner]

If scum shoot B, we still got A and you can still find the next town-slip or def-town player.

So if a brilliant player like Hectic is town, he would be a tremendous asset if we are going the Spare Route. However if he was scum - it's really hard for him to actually do damage because a Good-Town Hectic would not actually want to get spared himself.

(1) but at some point, we're very likely to run out of obv-town people. (2) even gods of mafia need information feedback, which is something that half-flipless screws with immensly. (3) again, *why* would god-of-mafia hectic not want to get himself spared? you can be a paragon at reading other people, but the only alignment you actually know is your own, and pushing for your own spare (especially after you've done all the heavy lifting of townreading correct players) is both logical and likely to happen

and again. you are talking pure hypotheticals. because this game is definitely not cleanly divided into 4-5 noobs who will just so happen to be bleeding obvtown (because guess what, not every noob is gonna be good at making themselves obvtown) and the rest of us being mafia gods who will correctly read them all. like that's not this playerbase. that's not the game we're playing.

[Tanner]

I will always go super try-hard on figuring out a way to game the system to get us the win.

the closest thing we got to gaming the system is using the biggest-EV smallest-town-frustration route. which is genocide. (or maybe 3 fights 1 spare if we majorly fuck up.) so like. ya know. work towards that?

[Tanner]

i'm going to be entirely unable to read Tanner without bias for at least a few real life days due to how much i love his posting to Pooky right now.

hey, as long as the read is correct, doesn't matter if it's biased!

you know what we could do if you guys are all super convinced Tanner = good?

we could like totally spare him and give peace a chance.

i do not consent to this

I'm not really hiding my reads - I just find it unlikely there are useful reads in the first place when there is no stakes in the interactions

you could make it so that there *are* stakes... which is what genocide does.

also why would you willingly make the game more difficult and (more importantly) more frustrating?

pedit: hi taylor
love to see alignment talk
do you have any more hot takes

[Tanner]

Like I'd go all in for getting the Chara spared if I were scum because it would be absolutely glorious.

you know what we could do if you guys are all super convinced Tanner = good?

we could like totally spare him and give peace a chance.

[Tanner]

if you're not 100% sure then why would we spare rather than fight?!

well you're usually not 100% sure about the people you fight either.

but there's a big difference between "fighting a townie on day one" and "sparing Not Chara on day one", ya know?

[Tanner]

are you chara?

no, i'm just saying, not being 100% certain in a flip is less disasterous when wrong if we're fighting.

also genocide is the obviously superior route anyway and there is no point sparing the first few days anyway but i feel like i've said that way too many times already

[Tanner]

if only Pooky is still arguing the point, is it really necessary to keep beating this horse?

i have a bad habit of *not* being able to let go when i really believe in something. i'll shut up now.

also should you not be sleeping?

[Tanner]

* Tanner you're kinda prickly you know? I noticed it in our last game when you got on me and didn't let go. (I don't mean it's a bad thing lol) but in addition to the other stuff about wanting you to be town, you have that same sticky energy by hunting down the people talking about spares (which tbh maybe you are doing too much of? It's not *that* productive)

ehh, you're not wrong. is there a reason you're putting it to alignment rather than personality? (other than "assume some people town" i guess)

i mean, define productive. imo getting people onto the highest EV path is productive. getting everyone to start talking reads is productive, because i will have a very hard time caring about this game if there's 3 people ~doing nothing~. am i succeeding in what i'm doing? debateable.

elements's pooky/puppy/tanner team is a... spicy take.

in case it wasnt clear, i was advocating that we fight

ok, who do you want to fight?

[Tanner]

ugh, okay. it's already way past 3am here and i'm pretty tired and this game is uninspiring, so. i was hoping that elements would be back to elaborate on his reads or that lavender would be back to do

something

since those are the two things that interest me the most at the moment but alas.

i mean, define productive. imo getting people onto the highest EV path is productive. getting everyone to start talking reads is productive, because i will have a very hard time caring about this game if there's 3 people ~doing nothing~. am i succeeding in what i'm doing? debateable.

you know it probably would've been way easier to get AI-reads on the scum team if we had at least pretended to be down with the 4-spare strategy for a few days to give the incentive for scum to try to get a chara-spare win rather than just being like hell no there's no way we r giving chara a chance to win early.

is that what you were doing?

i'm seeing people starting to get suspicious of puppy and at some point i did start wondering if he's been pocketing me and if he starts looking like a plausible day one fight i will look into it.

my Spicy Hot Take(tm) of the night is that lavender (confidering how difficult they seem to be to wagon) is chara who's trying to leave out the fewest associates possible for after they flip. this may or may not be the sleep deprevation mixed with unhealthy tunnelling speaking. i'll decide in the morning.
HURT: lavender

i swear i will give this more attention (or like, a proper readthrough of ISOS or something) once i get some sleep

am probably around for the next ~half an hour if someone needs me

[Tanner]

i'm seeing people starting to get suspicious of puppy and at some point i did start wondering if he's been pocketing me and if he starts looking like a plausible day one fight i will look into it.

if you want to give an opinion on my slot i'd be curious to hear it, but i'm still going to treat you as town at least until the end of d1

here's the thing. start of game, you're advocating genocide, my gut feels you're different than the scum!you i played with, aight cool he can be town for now. then people start talking about you and suspecting you and there might be something there, because hey wouldn't be the first time my day one reads are ass.

*however*, the deadline is kinda creeping closer and we need to start consolidating. and if you're a viable fight for today, i will start rereading people's cases and your interactions to see if i wanna help that wagon or halt it. but if you're not, i (1) don't feel like spending my (already very lacking) effort for that when you're not getting fought anyway, and (2) i feel it would actually be counterproductive to out that read today since it gives more info for scum's nightkill (i know it ain't much info but etc etc)

[Tanner]

...who's gonna tell him?

[Tanner]

NotChara doesn't flip when going 1spare>3fights.

[Tanner]

i don't think i've ever hated a day one as much as i hate this one...

prism (i think...) asked me who else i'd fight other than lavender. one boring answer is taylor, because their weird reads, or rather i feel like i can't exactly follow their thought process.

one maybe less boring answer is hectic. i'm kind of... creeped out by his play around lavender? asks them for a readslist with feels about players, and once they make that one post doing what was asked of them, they go pretty high up in his reads because... they did a similar post in one towngame? and the one scumgame over a year ago their readslist was "less fluffy"?

also there's quite a bit of text i skimmed over so if anyone wants my take on anything specific, shoot.

[Tanner]

oh right, i could've maybe compromised on elements, but that's on hold until beeboy Does Stuff.

[Tanner]

do you also feel like giving a redtea take? i may as well crowdsource it if you're looking for something to gnaw on. other that that anything you find interesting i'd love to hear.

i remember reding a couple of their posts and going "hey that's what i was thinking/feeling". their read of me feels so weird that i kinda think is genuine. also lazily skimming their iso i like 595.

why did it take me 10 minutes to write those 3 sentences what the fuck

so yeah, nothing actually that strong, but /shrug.

if i found anything interesting anywhere trust me i would be saying it

[Tanner]

one maybe less boring answer is hectic. i'm kind of... creeped out by his play around lavender? asks them for a readslist with feels about players, and once they make that one post doing what was asked of them, they go pretty high up in his reads because... they did a similar post in one towngame? and the one scumgame over a year ago their readslist was "less fluffy"?

As I mentioned before, it's not just the readlist, it's the general posting in both of those games, and not just that towngame, I checked the towngame before that too. catboi raises a good point that it seems like her tone has just shifted in general over time though.

I was excited to be able to call her town because she seems like a difficult read! I still think there's fair value to it because I think her first scumgame after so long would still have less elements of her townplay - the uncertainty and stream of consciousness while writing posts I mean.

i kinda want you to elaborate on this last part, where exactly has she shown Stream of Consciousness other than that one post? i was gonna ask about uncertainty too but i guess that's like... every post? and iunno. it was just one post. it almost seemed orchestrated in a way, "hey lavender post reads", *lavender posts reads*, "ok ur town"

why are we discussing sparing again oh my god

i wasn't in pooky's thoughts and that's sad

ok posting this before i get distracted again, will read what else i missed in a bit

[Tanner]

ok, the takeaway i got is that i'd be fine fighting elements i guess.

pedit: okay. i guess my issue stems from the fact that, since she's done a readslist like that as town very shortly ago, i think it wouldn't be *that much* of a problem to replicate it. maybe i'm projecting, i dunno. but making one post that they have a recent "reference" for just doesn't... seem like something that should be given a lot of towncred over.
ppedit: @hectic

[Tanner]

I think I'm just going to try and use the Not Chara flip to get me back into the swing of solving maybe, then I'll have something to focus on

i relate to this on a spiritual level

on the surface level i like the idea behind "everyone puts out readslists so we can hunt associates post-flip" but like... (1) that's effort and (2) when you phrase it like that, scum knows we're gonna be looking into it tomorrow and will probably make it so getting info from it is harder and stuff. if everyone starts doing it i'll join because peer pressure and i'm Not Not Chara (oshit a double negative) anyway so it doesn't matter, but. effort. :<

also i was gonna like... vote beeboy or something but i dunno the VC and we wouldn't want a lolhammer now would we

pedit: i was interested in that answer by catboi, and i'm kinda confused by it? because i feel like i haven't "really looked" at what whoever said for at least 3 days now?

[Tanner]

oh yeah, i just realized that if the wagon is on X-1 and Not Chara isn't on it and it's on a townie they will *probably* hammer it so treat X-2 as X-1 i guess

[Tanner]

hello i'm here earlier than usual since the deadline is in ~24 hours and i'm feeling dead tired today and will soon disappear back into the void for another 12 hours

my room-temperature bad-VCA take is that beeboy is prob town for how "fast" the wagon was there but also that i'd be willing to vote there if really necessary

i actually *don't* feel that strong of an urge to vote taylor anymore? i dunno. would definitely still fight lavender.

chara, i think you asked me about catboi? this is me acknowledging that i read that, but just... N/A. my brain is fried. the closest thing i got is that his townread on me felt ~weird~.

[Tanner]

#1000

hello i'm here earlier than usual since the deadline is in ~24 hours and i'm feeling dead tired today and will soon disappear back into the void for another 12 hours

my room-temperature bad-VCA take is that beeboy is prob town for how "fast" the wagon was there but also that i'd be willing to vote there if really necessary

i actually *don't* feel that strong of an urge to vote taylor anymore? i dunno. would definitely still fight lavender.

chara, i think you asked me about catboi? this is me acknowledging that i read that, but just... N/A. my brain is fried. the closest thing i got is that his townread on me felt ~weird~.

what exactly have i done to turn this around? if anything ive been doing less the last couple days, this seems like a strange townlean

it's not a townlean, it's a lessened (not disappeared) desire to vote you

if you're asking what you've done to accomplish that, the answer is "i don't know"

[Tanner]

hello friends, insomnia is kicking my ass

i was gonna vote beeboy (because deadline and i see my vote is still on lavender oops) but i wanna see if it's possible something happens there now

also vaguely agree with 1017

[Tanner]

deadline freeze due to a possible replacement is unlikely, right...

i'll hammer that in ~an hour if someome doesn't beat me to it

[Tanner]

huh. that happened.

first things first, we only fight from here on out, right? now that the insta-loss after day 4 cannot happen, there's no reason to not go for genocide?

also, i'm still decently worried about how yesterday went down. i skimmed the VC's, beeboy was leading wagon for a while, and towards the end of the game, the only "counterwagons" with 2 votes were (1) the chara wagon, which han an RVS vote on it, and (2) me/catboi voting lavender for a little bit. (if there were more correct me, i'm doing this from memory.) thinking if there was bussing involved. (also remembering that event and seeing catboi dead makes me uneasy...)

@hectic, you disgreed with my "stalled wagon on beeboy means he's town" thing (and obviously you were right >_>), can we chat about this? do you think a bus is possible/likely?

another thing, while skimming some ISOs, i noticed redtea hadn't shifted their vote since RVS, kinda disappeared near the end, and were defending elements at one point. who expressed a meta townread on them yesterday? was it catboi? ._.

[Tanner]

So we win either by fighting Not Chara, or by fighting a townie -> Not Chara suicides -> fighting the last mafia. And if we do genocide then we get a boost in Xylo. Is that correct?

almost but not quite, if we fight either of Not Chara or the "regular" Mafia we win today, at least to my understanding (since we can fight a townie tomorrow to trigger the suicide), and genocide gives us a 50/50 in MyLo so i guess, yeah. murder time.

[Tanner]

I read through the transcripts for yesterday and I was quite surprised to see you calling beeboy town based on VCA, and even a little alarmed by it. I haven't felt such excitement since reading a very interesting snail fact from the night before! However, I then realised it would serve you little purpose if you were a monster, as there were no other viable counterwagons and you didn't try and push anyone and instead kept your vote on Lavender - someone who others as well as Master Glyde himself had just towncased, not likely to lead to saving beeboy at all.

i am glad someone recognized this, since i was definitely expecting people to be pointing fingers at me at start of this day (though it's not too late yet i guess), but i'm also kinda... paranoid? what is your read on me right now? i remember being pretty low in the list you gave on day one.

hello friends, insomnia is kicking my ass

i was gonna vote beeboy (because deadline and i see my vote is still on lavender oops)

but i wanna see if it's possible something happens there now

also vaguely agree with 1017

I have conveniently highlighted what I want you to focus on in a pleasant shade of pink! At this point, were you still hoping for a mass shift onto Lavender? Why did you disagree with Master Glyde's reasons for her being an innocent child?

Otherwise, I do believe that a bus is a very likely possibility. It's either that or the monsters were simply too afraid to push anything else or hop onto Tayl0r, as it would look too opportunistic and quite bad for them down the line!

i wasn't really hoping for it, since i knew that such mass shift was very very unlikely. not impossible maybe. i don't actually know what i was hoping for. the townie in me is saying that i was hoping to at least get some info by people's reactions to it. the truth is probably closer to "i refused to vote for beeboy because i felt it was a silent consensus execute that 99/100 times flips town, and wanted my vote anywhere else so i could act high and mighty the next day for not being on the misfight wagon."

i kinda said why i disagreed with you in 898. a single post whose style/type you were going to look at just didn't, and to be honset still doesn't seem that difficult to fake.

i don't necessarily mean just opportunistic hopping onto a wagon near the end of the day. elements was practically the only wagon of the game, except when you were on 3 fight votes for a little bit. that's what's so goddamn odd to me. like... either (1) scum is actually all in the lower-influence "weaker" players and we have this game on lock, or (2) some mighty bus was happening yesterday... (2) scares me.

[Tanner]

also i had a thought that elements was bussed and that scum was gonna try to get themselves spared off of towncred, and for puppy to enter the game going for spares... yay paranoia.

i'm pretty sure 4 fights are optimal in every single scenario now. day 2 is definitely a fight day to either win or get Not Chara flipped. since the "if mafia is spared, they win if both of them survive Day 5" clause in 1-3 is now pointless, sparing on day 3/4 is just setting off those executes for later... while losing 2 public cops. i can crunch the numbers later if anyone is that interested in it, but i'm pretty sure fighting is the way.

[Tanner]

Here's the breakdown after my reread:

Prism
Pooky
Tayl0r
Catboi
-------- SPARE LINE --------
Hectic

Redtea

Chara
-------------------------------
Tanner
Puppy
-------------------------------
Lavender
Elements-beeboy

i don't necessarily disagree with you, but how did you get from here to there?

[Tanner]

also i had a thought that elements was bussed and that scum was gonna try to get themselves spared off of towncred, and for puppy to enter the game going for spares... yay paranoia.

i'm pretty sure 4 fights are optimal in every single scenario now. day 2 is definitely a fight day to either win or get Not Chara flipped. since the "if mafia is spared, they win if both of them survive Day 5" clause in 1-3 is now pointless, sparing on day 3/4 is just setting off those executes for later... while losing 2 public cops. i can crunch the numbers later if anyone is that interested in it, but i'm pretty sure fighting is the way.

This wouldn't really make sense though, your argument would be that 4 fights is obviously objectively correct, also scum bussed for credit so they could play better in an inferior position. Why would scum bus at all?

I think it's more realistic that scum didn't bus, or at least didn't push the wagon until it was too late. In that case, sparing is a decent move because we'd save two townreads and still get a copcheck for it. 2 + 1 > > 2

yes, i realized it wouldn't make sense because "wait a minute, fighting is clearly optimal, nobody is gonna enter day 2 asking for spares!"

...except then you did exactly that.

i am 99.99% sure that genocide is the superior option as i was thinking about it earlier but now it's past midnight and my math brain is closed.

here's my spicy take of the night.

HURT: puppy

[Tanner]

I think sparing is slightly better here. If your argument is "scum bussed someone who wasn't chara for slightly better odds to push sparing later". That's just silly.

my argument is "elements/beeboy was a wagon with very little to no resistance or counters, and he flipped scum, which means that either scum is the low-influence PoE'd players, or elements was turbobussed with scum holding a lot of clout right now, and in both of those cases sparing is very counterproductive".

[Tanner]

oh no, i want to townread chara for making sense...

[Tanner]

oh no, i want to townread chara for making sense...

what post are you talking about here?
i would say i was making just as much sense yesterday.

about 1099. i would agree with you, i just like it when people take my side in arguments when i really believe in them i guess. the post was meant to have a tone of "i know i shouldn't be townreading them for that"

[Tanner]

i think i'm feeling pretty decently about pooky here. he's good at pushing through misfights, no? i don't think day one happens the way it did. also i think i'm digging the possible scum!taylor theory. speaking of, tweet, help out pls.
[pedit] lol that's funny. is there anything specific about early game pooky or just pushing for spares? maybe i should go check...[/pedit]

There are some curiosities but we can't really take advantage of it (ex. Chara flip serves as a X&Y==Town? two person investigative.

Sparing scum/town is autowin

, sparing two town is not)

can you run this by me real quick?

i find it kinda amusing how both chara and hectic, the two that thought my stances were town!indicative, are now walking back at about the same time

i reread some of Tanner's Lavender and Elements/beeboy progressions and now i'm back to not being sure about him. the Puppy vote also feels rather obvious. i am also paranoid of Puppy but it is a very straightforward direction.

i'm pretty aware how i look, but is there anything specific that's making you walk back right now, after you came a different conclusion last night? anything that i can help you with?

also... not sure what you're implying by my puppy vote being obvious/straightforward? like, is that supposed to be a bad thing?

hello friends, insomnia is kicking my ass

i was gonna vote beeboy (because deadline and i see my vote is still on lavender oops) but i wanna see if it's possible something happens there now

also vaguely agree with 1017

Why the "oops" here? Also, did you meta Lavender at any point yesterday?

Pedit: Yeah, Tanner puts me at unease. I don't really like their Lavender push or thoughts yesterday.

the oops is there because i noticed that i hadn't moved my vote in a while, which rarely happens.

define meta. i looked up that one readslist they gave in their one scumgame a year ago, and the readslist they gave in the crossfire game. i agree that the readslist she gave in this game isn't similar to the readslist she gave in her scumgame. i still stand by what i said. if you're townbinning her for the uncertainty and stream of consciousness, that she gave in one (1) (one) post, after not having a scumgame here in god knows how long and her style somewhat shifting overall, sorry but i'm not going to blindly sheep you.

do you think her overall posting in this game is supposed to be town!indicative for her? i can sit down and read her iso in crossfire if you think it's gonna be worthwhile. but i'm not townbinning her for one post (that i didn't even like in the first place) because someone else did. do you genuinely think it's suspicious that i'm not blindly sheeping you here?

[Tanner]

If you spare the other vanilla mafia and a town, Chara doesn't flip immediately like they would from two townies. We therefore have it narrowed to two people. We fight anyone Day 4 for a Chara+townflip, return the two spared players, and we have 2 possibilities and a iirc misfight. I don't feel like recounting right now but pretty sure that's how it works..

chara doesn't flip if there are spared players. >:

now, onto hectic's 1193... are we reading the same game? "the confidence i put into the push and the scumread"?? you mean 597, the "spicy hot take" that nobody took seriously. then the next time i "pushed" lavander is in 996, almost 400 posts (!!!) later, when the deadline was getting close, where i said... that i "would definitely still fight lavender.". and then the "push" in 1020, where i... passively kept my vote on lavender. which you before called townie for refusing to get onto the wagon. ok.

like, calling this "the confidence" and "the pushing" is... i'm sorry, plain wrong?

Fight Votecount 1.6
Elements----------------------- (2) CantLynchAPuppy, Chara
Lavender ----------------------

this was part of the VC when i made 597, the post you're quoting. i'm trying to save my buddy... who has 2 votes on him...? by jumping onto a new vanity wagon? that i then lurk out on and literally don't even mention for 400 posts?

again,

define meta

. i looked at specifically two readslists from crossfire and from the scumgame to see the ~freeflowing thoughts~ or whatever. that's it.

[Tanner]

There's also 454 which I don't like, Tanner, because you're completely dismantling Lavender which is quite easy to do, but everything you poke at there is just Lavender being Lavender. Her whole MO is giving non-stances and barely commenting on things, and it's easy to tell it's a manifestation of her personality based on the way she plays, and confirmable if you look into her meta. So, the way you roast her feels a little too well done for my tastes.

Lavender is your one consistent scumread that you poke and push throughout day 1, and I just... don't like the reasoning you give?

okay, so...? she has a scummy a shit playstyle, i can maybe give you that. but "manifestation of her personality"? do you actually think my 454 is bad faith coming from someone who never played with her before? like, "lavender being lavender". i don't know lavender. is my reasoning still bad?

and, what do you think of my previous post? like a big part of your vote (at leat what i figured) i that i was trying to push lavender through to save beeboy. have your thoughts updated on that?

also also, if i am scum trying to misfight lavender, why do i kill catboi, who (1) is townreading me and (2) is the only other person who was listening to me there and voting with me?

[Tanner]

I don't have a clear picture in my mind of what scum!you wanted to achieve. Whether you actually believed you could push Lavender through as a counter to Ele, or whether it's just you faking scumhunting as all scum have to do.

I decided your VCA take should be regarded as NAI, since at that point you would know it's very likely Ele is going through and there's nothing you can do about it, so everything you do there is a kind of antispew for the day in a sense if you're scum.

zzz this feels like moving goalposts.
> "you're scum who was trying to push lavender to save beeboy"
> "but i barely mentioned lavender..."
> "i don't know what scum you was doing, maybe you were trying to just fake scumhunting."

there was something i could to about it. i could bus. i could *not* sit on the sidelines like an idiot going "hurr durr there is no resistance this is a town flip but i won't try to actually push through anything else and i'll vote there if i have to i guess since we need a fight".

my Spicy Hot Take(tm) of the night is that lavender (confidering how difficult they seem to be to wagon) is chara who's trying to leave out the fewest associates possible for after they flip. this may or may not be the sleep deprevation mixed with unhealthy tunnelling speaking. i'll decide in the morning.
HURT: lavender

This especially feels very bad faith to me.

If you'd metaed Lavender, you'd know she very rarely and barely provides reads. The readlist that I got out of her this game is infact a LOT more content and thoughts than she normally gives on day 1. So, pushing her as a "Chara who's trying to leave out the fewest associates possible for after they flip" is very sus to me.

Could you address this for me?

not sure what you want me to address there? like the part i italicized is resting on the "if you'd metaed lavender", which, reminder, i did not do.

[Tanner]

also also, if i am scum trying to misfight lavender, why do i kill catboi, who (1) is townreading me and (2) is the only other person who was listening to me there and voting with me?

This is weird btw. Clearly the argument I'm making isn't that your goal as scum this game is to FIGHT Lavender, it's that I think your reasons to FIGHT Lavender on day 1 are fabricated.

argument you were making is that i am scum who was fabricating my reasons to scumread lavender (as scum does) in order to push them through and save my partner.

granted, pushing lavender through today wouldn't bring beeboy back, but hey, scum!me in this position needs misfights, and lavender would probably be one of them, so.

pedit: will read that in a bit

[Tanner]

It does beg the question then of why you don't use your Chara temporary life gift to really push a town FIGHT through, but

maybe you miscalculated and thought you could do that with low-hanging-flower Lavender

? I do recall you voicing support on FIGHTing me but you never joined the wagon, maybe you were waiting for it to pick up a vote or two before you joined and abandoned Lavender?

again, like... i am bad at math, but come on. with you hard defending lavender, me dropping the "lol what if lavender is chara" theory then not mentioning it for about 400 posts until it was waaaaaay too late, and everyone else solidly ignoring that slot... do you really think scum!me would think there's a chance she gets flipped?

i'm finding the "i remember you doing X so here's me explaining the scum!motive to you doing X" annoying but whatever.

lemme know if you find any gold in my stances on you/taylor.

[Tanner]

have i ever read you right in a game? i don't think i have. my first instinct here is telling me that your solving of my slot is hella fake and that you're just waiting for someone to voice a suspicion of me before jumping back onto me being scum. but at the same time i feel that is wrong...

[Tanner]

i don't know. it's the gutfeel i get when reading the past page or so, but i don't think i actually believe that.

something about faking nuanced thoughts, but also wanting that sweet misfight... yeah i don't think it makes sense.

[Tanner]

i don't have much to say right now, since the slots that currently interest me kinda... aren't here.

lavender is still... well, lavender, but i don't know anymore. i hate that post, but it might be because they're cherry-picking one post from me (which i do still stand behind, i never kill catboi last night but self meta bad etc etc) and spinning it into something scummy while not engaging with anything else but hey. what do i know at this point.

the only thing that's genuinely bugging me at this point (since i'm gonna pretend i trust hectic's read there for the time being) is why *didn't* scum try to get lhf!town!lavender? especially since if Not Chara were to hardpush her through, they could do so without consequence. like, from my pov, the only two people to ever actually vote there were two town. was hectic really that convincing with that read?

also the fact that i also got 72.6% for genocide is making me regain faith in my math skills.

[Tanner]

okay this thread is actually active again. okay i will put at least some effort into this game goddammit.

i'm gonna like... ignore the spare posts for now because we do not need another 5 paragraphs of me arguing about that

not really worth much. pooky as chara is kindr of interesting, kind of distanced from a few slots, redtea/taylor/lavendar maybe most notable

what is noteable about those three? the fact he put them in "eh/who?"? do you think that is + or - partners?

1269 and 1271 are a mood... nope, it's too early in the morning to drink.

After being suspicious of Pooky, I went to look at Tanner, whose interactions with Elements were early and

totally fine

. The only issues are that he gave beeboy a chance to post content and said the wagon was a bit too fast. Somebody call 911 on him. He also shuts down the Tayl0r vote so unless this it's Tayl0r/Tanner ???

I feel like if there's a deepscum it's one of those two but at this point there might not even be one. I just feel bad for still being cautious of Pooky for his early game despite obvious strong play.

am i insane? am i seriously crazy for thinking that the pretty much only wagon on day one, a deadline consolidation with no serious counters and almost no resistance (and the late counters/resistance coming from me/catboi, so confirmed town to me) flipping scum, in a game where a day one scumflip is so damaging to scum, that wagon flipping scum is at least a little bit concerning? like just a tiny bit of a possibility of some 9000 iq theatre bus happening?

also i'm finding it p funny that scum!me would be classified as deepscum in this game.

Tanner-can you talk more about your Puppy vote? I remember liking a lot of their interactions with Elements in hindsight. I also really don't see the point in pushing for a spare from them unless it is exactly Puppy+Chara...which I find really unlikely.

Any explanation you can give on how you've thought about redtea/Sujimichi would also be really helpful here imo

sure. i was already of the thought that "this game is either really easy or there's something concerning going on." and puppy's posts from 1084-1092 just... creeped me out, i dunno, they feel like they belong in the latter gamestate. i wanted to see if he got better, and... he didn't? like i think i'm bringing up a valid concern about the possibility of an *actual* deepscum (though if you feel like i'm not, tell me, because at this point i can't tell myself) and why sparing right now is very dangerous, and i kinda find it odd they didn't interact with it further than "scum wouldn't buss day one, it's silly."

and 1225 is also kinda :/ since it was made right after hectic and i were talking and where it seemed i was a viable vote for today...

ok. at first i vaguely liked redtea, and was also half sheeping you/catboi since i was townreading you two and you seemed to have a dope metaread there so whatever, you're probably better at reading them than i am. somewhere along middle/late day one, i was reskimming their iso again, and realized i plainly don't remember why i was so town on them? and after the flip, i decided to at least take a loot at the people off-wagon during the night, and uhhh, redtea wan't *great* (1064). also obviously not thrilled about suji.

ok posting before this turns into a bigger wall

[Tanner]

your dismissal of Tanner scum has me a little bit frowny face, Prism. i think those are good reasons to suspect him.

do you wanna talk about this? didn't you earlier say that's probably +town (1113)? what's changing your mind?

the Puppy vote is also where my interest is re: Tanner and i don't think Tanner has discussed it in response to prompting yet, though i could be wrong.

you're not wrong, though i did want to discuss it with you. (also talked about it in 1349 just now)

also... not sure what you're implying by my puppy vote being obvious/straightforward? like, is that supposed to be a bad thing?

i still don't quite get what was this supposed to mean and/or imply? like... your only vote today was suji. not sure if i'm missing something in your description there, but is that not also pretty obvious/straightforward?

zzz lavender is still ignoring me, but my annoyance is probably NAI for them

the only thing that's genuinely bugging me at this point (since i'm gonna pretend i trust hectic's read there for the time being) is why *didn't* scum try to get lhf!town!lavender? especially since if Not Chara were to hardpush her through, they could do so without consequence. like, from my pov, the only two people to ever actually vote there were two town. was hectic really that convincing with that read?

i don't have a satisfying answer to this. i am instead quoting this post for further study postgame once all alignments are known, because i think it's interesting and maybe, finally, i could learn something about mafia theory.

i'm pointing it out because i did correctly call scum out like that once - a lurker-lhf slot that i was calling out day one, but nobody listened to me except 1-2 very towny players. we ended up kinda deadline-consolidating on executing a different scum. on day two, i pushed the lurker-lhf slot through because "if we were on-course to execute scum on day one, why didn't scum bother to jump on this lhf!townie and make me look bad tomorrow?" got a scumflip on day two as well.

the only difference i think is that... well, there wasn't a hectic in that game who was defending them. which is what's giving me pause, since scum could've been afraid of him. which is why i'm still debating with myself about actually pushing lavender through, especially since i'd be signing my own death warrant if they flipped green, and i don't fancy us getting two green flips for the price of one, because of my own reads no less.

i read through 1341 while following 610, and damn. realizing how surface-level most of my reads are this game. "scum!pooky is good at pushing misexecutes, we probably don't get a scumflip on day one." 521 and 543 are kinda weird to be s/s i guess?

And maybe with a bit more time I can actually lock Pooky/Tanner as town

hello can i help with that

[Tanner]

If it really is just Suji and we're losing sleep over nothing I guess Isis is laughing at us?

i am very tempted to just go down this path.

i'm thinking about elements's 410, but it seemed like a fairly easy "read" to give to seem productive. maybe i'm too strong on my chara townread. i sure don't know anymore.

prism, how sure are you on puppy/ele not being s/s? also i'm around if needed.

[Tanner]

The only read of theirs that is worth more of an explanation to me is the progression from 892 to 898 on Elements.

Tanner-When you said the takeaway from the catchup was you were fine with Elements, can you talk what made you feel this way?

i think 898 was made after i read page 35 and the top of page 36, and i'm decently sure 865 is what made me feel okay enough with that fight on day one. not outright a scumread, but enough that i didn't feel the urge to strongly and actively fight it.

the progression on pooky plainly didn't make sense. and it reminded me how elements's 535 surprised me back when it was made, since i don't think i was a popular scumread at the time, so i was looking forward to seeing ele explain what he was seeing in me, both to see what i'm doing "wrong" and to hopefully help me sort him. then in the next post he unhurt and unhealed his votes and flaked out. i didn't think much of the post at the time, but 865 made me think that i'm giving a free pass where i maybe should not be doing so.

pedit: ton of posts, gimme a bit

[Tanner]

I'm not really familiar with Puppy's meta but the sparing reasoning seems plausible to me as town. I really don't think there's any incentive to push it, period, really unless you're going for a Day 2 Chara spare win. That's really putting all of your eggs into one basket on something you know isn't likely to work. Previous spare discussions had gotten some scumreads and some townreads but really isn't going to help Puppy in the longrun. The wincon for scum here is pretty clearly the fact that they need 3 misfights and Puppy...really isn't searching for them. 692 is a really great post in hindsight, though.

I also just like, find two deepwolfs here so unlikely to begin with. Even if Puppy gets his two spares, unless Puppy is scum with one of Chara/Hectic/MT as Chara, all of which seem really unlikely, this isn't going to help his situation out at all.

I think the issues that stick out to me would be that I was too generous in my initial readthrough around the final vote, 900 actively hunts for who catboi wants to flip...but I still don't really see them as likely at this point.

kinda playing devil's advocate here, but scum benefits from spares right now, even if we only end up sparing town. it's much better EV for them, and if not chara is a widely townread player, it lets them steer the game a bit longer while possibly leaving bad associates for townies who do end up being spared.

i agree it's a tinfoil and i agree we should be fighting the more scumread players as opposed to trying to snipe a deepwolf that may or may not exist, i'm just... i dunno, uneasy.

puppy's interactions with ele *are* decent from what i remember. i'd have to give them a reread and/or chat with puppy a bit more today.

If Lavender flips Chara tonight by the way I'm buying a bottle of wine and posting as I finish it Day 3.

i'm buying a bottle of vodka. will be posting as i get rushed to the ER for alcohol poisoning.

[Tanner]

i don't think i have anything specific i want you to look at because the game is kinda weird right now, in a sense that i don't think we can procceed in a huge manner without flipping a "lower" slot first and seeing whether that gives us victory or a deepwolf not-chara flips and we need to start over. again, would be lovely to big brain snipe the deepwolf today if they exist, but i'm kinda thinking that's unrealistic.

i feel like arguing about why you (or chara too, i guess) think my puppy-caution is "not great" but i don't think that's gonna be productive for anyone involved

It looks like you have a strong Chara townread if you want to talk more with me about that.

They literally went from my strongest TR to my pet scumread in like 30 minutes lmao

i don't think i have too much depth to it? i liked their posting, i feel fine about the ways we've interacted, their interactions with ele don't ring s/s to me - the second paragraph in 1370 simply doesn't seem like a contradiction that's supposed to be +scum, and i also don't really see s/s behind elements being Certain in shutting down hectic's chara townread.

however, what *does* kinda concern me is their progression on me during early day two, so i'm kinda hoping to talk about it with them. unless they already responded and i missed it.

[Tanner]

The candidates there imo are 1. Lavender 2. Pooky 3. Tanner 4. Taylor and I guess Puppy?

hng, i kinda don't think pooky is scum, like i don't think scum!pooky gets into this situation from what i've seen of his scumplay. i'm not it. partner being lavender/taylor would mean the whole scumteam just kinda fell apart on day one. puppy also... i don't know. suji very much seems like scum right now. holistically i don't know if it makes perfect sense.

pedit: yeah that's ok, i'm just commenting along as well i guess. i feel like a lazy ass saying "when you look at it, lemme know if you need anything", but... eh.

[Tanner]

prism please get some sleep

[Tanner]

puppy's interactions with ele *are* decent from what i remember. i'd have to give them a reread and/or chat with puppy a bit more today.

What do you want to talk about

Ele had a weird push on me that felt forced, chara made a good point about him, I pushed and then he subbed out. I actually feel lucky more than anything, but there's still no way his partners wanted that bus to go through

i don't know what i want to talk about. something that makes me think you're not trying to murder us all, because at this point i'm sounding insane to myself. i guess a good start would be who you're willing to fight today and what is actually your read on me?

Scum cannot afford to be fougt again, so the fact that no one else is a really pushing to look elsewhere says to me that Sujimichi is probably town. (Otherwise, their partner is making absolutely zero attempt to dodge autoloss)

i thought the fact that no one was pushing anyone but suji was a sign of late game apathy. is it not?

why do i feel like something is so very wrong with this (puppy) post... what was your thought process writing this post? especially paired with 1420?

like i get the feel 1420 is the "this is the post i'm going to point at post-townflip to show i wasn't on board with it for townpoints", while 1426 feels like shutting down valid reasons by which prism is correctly getting to town!suji... but does that make sense? who is his partner?? am i cherry-picking the most minuscule bullshit??? stay tuned

[Tanner]

hey Tanner, i can talk about it tonight if you're around, but i'll respond regardless. it's mostly reconsidering townreading you for being blatant about the Elements when it is a fact that the scum elimination d1 screwed over scum pretty bad. your Puppy vote being "obvious" makes me think you didn't consider that, while it's good for scum to Spare here, blatantly arguing for it is a little too on the nose, like you didn't really consider what Puppy has to gain or if he thought he could actually get us to spare today.

don't know how long i'll be on tonight.

i am not actually sure how to respond to this. like, on one hand, i think that me being blatant while a scum fight day one is horrible for scum should be +town, not +scum, because i'd be actively and knowingly making myself look horrible in an environment where i'd know another scumflip is game over, with no gain, other than the "why would scum!me do that" wifom argument (which is working wonders). on the other, i have the privilege of knowing my role PM is green, which means i'm probably not able to be objective here.

sure, maybe it is a little bit too on the nose. i'm not 100% on puppy being scum. i'm not saying i have a full scum!puppy plan mapped out in detail. did he think he could actually get us to spare? who knows, maybe he did. the way he entered shooting down my idea of a possible bus, then asking for spares, the one path where a bus would actually hurt us, it doesn't make me feel good.

pedit: oh? chara called me towny?

[Tanner]

who else are you considering for scum?

i'm kinda shoving all of hectic/prism/morning tweet/chara/pooky as "this is most likely town, and even if it's not we're not flipping them today unless something mindblowing happens, so moving on" (yeah, i get it's funny saying that while watching the prism-chara thing brewing, but hey)

which leaves
suji - at the start of day two i pointed out that some of their connections with elements aren't... great, and i've talked about my read progression on redtea at the bottom of 1349. i have never played with suji, but from what i've seen of their play around the site, they're usually not that invested as scum and they often flake? and this game is kinda similar to their scumplay? the issue of "who are they partnered with?" is the only thing bothering me.

lavender - do we need another chapter of tanner ranting about lavender? i kinda wish they were at least, i dunno, trying to interact with me. actually kinda wanna hear what hectic thinks of this slot now. @hectic pls help.

puppy - we also don't need another chapter of this. also i kinda wanna talk to them on the things i brought up recently. will give an update at some point maybe.

taylor - i don't know. they're like. meh. i pretty much don't remember anything they've done.

i spent a good minute trying to figure out who i'm forgetting before realizing it's 10 alive, and 5 townreads + 4 maybe not townreads + me is 10
i'm tired

[Tanner]

sup fuckers
this game is giving me anxiety but alcohol is helping with that so here i am
also before i was accused of saying i'm drinking while posting in order to escape the responsibility of what i write, and i'm saying right away, 100% hold me accountable for whatever i write in this post because i'm probably a better player drunk than sober

anyway

i don't know what you want from me, do you want a self-towncase? i think the fact that i sat on elements when i could have flipped off makes me ptown

[snip]

and you're probably town? i don't think scum goes after me like you did today, you have the right level of town paranoia combined with that prickly side i felt yesterday. i dunno, convince me youre acting in bad faith and i could scumread you i guess.

i literally said what i want from you
i want your scumreads
i want to know who would you like to murder and why you would like to murder them
i need to read ele+puppy iso to make a decision whether that's plausible s/s but i don't want you to case that
who would you like to

f i g h t

?
also i'm not trying to make you scumread me, i'm triyng to sort you by seeing what your read on me is or something like that

hi krazy !! i am glad to see you despite what i'm about to say
i have a bad feeling about that vote on me, not necessarily "this locks krazy as scum" feeling, but rather a "this game is gonna get less pleasant for me" feeling
because i am not in the mood to scream as i fight (haha) my own misfight

also agreed with whoever said that you should probably at least take a look at the wagon or whatever
day one was weird since there was practically no counterwagon to the scumflip

i have no idea what 1456 is trying to say

??? Puppy I really think you need to revisit the last few pages from scratch. I'm not assuming it has to be Suji at all, I'm arguing the opposite and the last few pages of mine are all dedicated to speculating that it might be Tayl0r/Chara.

I reread and decided I didn't feel very strongly about it anymore. I was just reacting to what was at the top of the thread. Sorry w/e

Is there a case for lynching anyone or are we going on activity levels and the like? It seems to me like a suji slot lynch is as good as any other, I was just looking for some case to grab me. We nab scum today either way so the votes are just for bragging rights

prism, i think i understand your fixation on chara now because my fucking god i cannot

like this rings so fake because there is so much more to the case on suji other than "lol lurker" and this seems like this is the type of post that's meant to be "defending" a misflip before it happens while not actually trying to persuade anyone from not voting

like it almost feels like purposefully playing dumb?? i dunno???

but suji slot seemed so like scum, but i don't think they're partnered with puppy???? help

@Tanner:
I still like Lavender. I like the meta read that she concluded on me, and townreading Launchy for consistently shading/pushing Ele from start to finish is also fair. I mean, I don't expect much from her, but this is more contribution from her than the entirety of Crossfire (where she was town), so the lack is certainly not scum-indicative if that's what you're afraid of.

I have a tinfoil theory that she's an Isis alt who's self-inserted herself as Chara into the game, but I'm still working on formulating this one. Will be back with soemthing more concrete later.

the first paragraph is telling me i'm gonna need to read crossfire
i don't feel like reading crossfire
sigh
later

is that second paragraph joking? i genuinely can't tell
if it's not a joke, i'd be willing to talk about that

also i remember you saying that lavender doesn't provide much on day one? was that implying she does more on further days or??

so I'll HURT: tanner and ask if anyone has a good reason to townread either swift or tanner?

i townread tanner because he is pushing stubbornly up in situations that would be easier for town to shirk back from. he's still trying to push a case on me (?) when i'm obvtown (iso my votes on the elements scum wagon from yesterday). is that a "good reason" for you?

my tunneled mind is saying "this is not-chara trying to leave bad associates for me so that i get misfought after they flip"
i understand that might not be rational

*flashbacks to scun!Farkran doing this for the entirely of the last Undertale game and being hard townread by many for it*

doing what puppy is doing (defending? me?) or doing what i am apparently doing (pushign? against the grain?)
if it's the latter, do we need to talk again, hectic??? buddy?? pal????

[Tanner]

hectic pls stop changing your avatar constantly, i am tired of rereading your iso and forming a new read on you every time you change it

[Tanner]

whatcha drinking

staropramen czech beer
it's pretty good
8.5/10

doing what puppy is doing (defending? me?) or doing what i am apparently doing (pushign? against the grain?)
if it's the latter, do we need to talk again, hectic??? buddy?? pal????

I don't think you're Farkan, so no, but it still gave me

war flashbacks

ok
for a second i got worries you had ideas about

fighting me

carry on citizen

[Tanner]

i liked angrey luigi better

pedit: i meant that as "do you genuinely think lavender could be chara", i did not mean to imply anything about our dear mod playing in her own game

ppedit: wow guys really?

[Tanner]

pedit: i meant that as "do you genuinely think lavender could be chara", i did not mean to imply anything about our dear mod playing in her own game

Oh lol, no, I don't think there's anything that points towards her being >Chara. She does give me murderous vibes at times though, but that might just be her personality.

i wish i could tell which of hectic's reads are memes and which are serious

is there a difference? maybe there's no difference

maybe all of mafia is a meme

[Tanner]

i don't understand why am i like this
townhunting then going by poe is perfectly valid as a strategy, i use it sometimes
why does it make me feel like puppy is a murderous bloodthistly canine

pooky i wholeheartedly believed you
i'm wondering if the game of mafia as a whole is a meme
like we're just arguing about shit that doesn't really matter
i mean isn't like like that too
nothing really matters in the grand scheme of things

what the fuck am i typing

pedit: give me a bit doggo i will tldr case on suji i just need to Do Things first

[Tanner]

isn't life* like that too
i didn't have that much but am a lightweight

re puppy: i realized i don't feel like linking shit but like... their interactions about elements and his wagon are Not Great, they kinda ~disappeared~ towards the end and the lack of resistance could maybe be explained by an afk partner, also suji dopping in, making vague posts and not interacting with anything from day one then lurking out again is by Meta much closer to scum!suji than town!suji afaik

also i personally at some point realized i don't remember why i was townreading that slot

[Tanner]

that was a response to 1482, saying why redtea/suji/krazy has scum equity

[Tanner]

zzz is there any ~conviction~ behind that
any ~passion~
any Spice

[Tanner]

Tanner are you an outed alt?

yep.

[Tanner]

well shit.

this is not the reaction i was hoping for

i'm not "actively" roleplaying, though i do think i'm typing differently than usual. i have a "tone" of my posts in my head that i try to type out in a way that matches the avatar i have. i don't know if i'm explaining it well.

my guess would be that my ~sounding different than usual~ has more to do with me not being invested in the game at first, there being too much uninteresting mech talk, and just the weird game that it's been with p much the sole wagon of day one flipping red and my reads probably being ass? but self meta bad

i'm around for a bit if you want to chat, though. interested in how much you've read and why you're suspecting me.

[Tanner]

1445 is the closest to it, tierd reads would prob be

{hectic, prism, chara}
{tweet, pooky}
{puppy, taylor}
{lavender, krazy}

a lot more aggressive compared to...? also i get defensive as town, not sure which games of mine you're familiar with (oops is this sounding defensive too?)

also also heads up I'm probably gonna fall asleep soon since it's late here

[Tanner]

I'm mostly thinking of some of the games I modded, although there's always a lot of differences there. {hydras, large themes, etc.}

Anyway can you expand on your tier 3, puppy and taylor?

In terms of your read of my slot, basically it's: suji scumplaceout + something about elements. Can you expand on those or what is the connection you mean?

Also what franchise is tanner from, for some reason it looks familiar but I'm not sure off hand.

i feel obliged to point out that my play in post-apoc is probably more different than my usual townplay than is my play in this game

boy, puppy.
~ 1093 - after the weird wagon day one, i thought there's a chance that scum might've bussed and would be trying to push for spares using the towncred. puppy came in pushing for spares. uneasiness.
~ 1225 - made right after hectic and i fought, and it kiiiinda made me think it's a pivot to jump onto my wagon
~ i talk about my vote near the bottom of 1349
~ also whatever paranoid garble i typed out in 1440, i'm not sure if it makes perfect sense to me right now but i didn't get a lot of sleep last night so whatever, am linking for posterity
~ also the middle of post 1463 i guess
~ i am still pending a reread on pup/ele iso because i'm not sure those are s/s, but that is not happening now

taylor is... i dunno. they haven't exactly been around a lot of day one, and most other people just seem townier than her. she did have a couple of posts that are weirdly calling elements out when it maybe wouldn't have been necessary, but i'm not sure those are out of the realm of s/s

i talked about my read on redtea at the bottom of 1349, i don't think there's anything specific about readtea on day one, at the time they just seemed "fine". err, not sure what connection you're talking about.

john tanner from driver: san francisco, trippy game, do recommend

[Tanner]

i realized i don't feel like linking shit but like... their interactions about elements and his wagon are Not Great,

this is what I was asking about, which interactions with elements did you mean and/or expand on the issue with his wagon

oh, right
i think i meant what i said in my daystart post (1064), mainly redtea defending elements (266, 595), and them pretty much disappearing the last 3-4 days of day one, where the weird lack of resistance of the scumwagon could be explained by an afk buddy

[Tanner]

please don't call me that

[Tanner]

There does seem to be some push on me, some of which is clearly coming from town, but of the slots pushing my lynch right now yours looks a bit scummier than Hectic's. I'll think on it more on the morrow

so uhh what was the deal with 1494?

response to prism's 1571:
~ i'm not arguing puppy's 100% scum. i would be pushing him with much more power if i thought so.
~ i want to argue "considering the way day one went, what the hell *was* scum doing?" is why i'm paranoid and kinda annoyed, but i guess the question here is "is it plausible for town to assume no bussing", which. i dunno. i guess.
~ 1225 made me uneasy because it seemed like a weaker townlean than the day earlier, and that last part made me think he was going to ~stop~ townleaning me in the future? that's what i meant by aligning, or like preparing himself to be able to walk back in the future, because scum still needs misfights and i'm assuming they're planning for me to be one of them.

having typed this out, i feel guilty of "ascribing scum motivations to posts rather than looking for it", so yeah. i dunno what to tell you. if puppy's not scum, then from my pov it's either some combination of lavender/krazy/taylor or something's very wrong. i don't know if there's a combination of those that outirght works. and that worries me.

i still got like 2 pages to read, but in the meantime
@hectic, how sure are you of morning-tweet!town today? and could you give me a shotgun readslist?

[Tanner]

my hot take with beeboy/taylor is to ignore his push there completely because it smells of scum wifom that can go either way
i'd argue the heal on morning tweet is more interesting since that actually had non-zero chances of getting through, but i don't actually have any AI conclusions about that, so eh

this is a pretty small post for 2 pages but a lot of them were animal guessing so whatever

[Tanner]

Σ(-᷅_-᷄๑) trying to figure out who would actually make sense as being teamed with the elements slot and it's, like...lavender, taylor, redtea, or

I guess

Prism and that's it. Hrm.

this was killed.

i've been thinking about this post as a "maybe i *am* overthinking it too much?"

[Tanner]

Σ(-᷅_-᷄๑) trying to figure out who would actually make sense as being teamed with the elements slot and it's, like...lavender, taylor, redtea, or

I guess

Prism and that's it. Hrm.

this was killed.

i've been thinking about this post as a "maybe i *am* overthinking it too much?"

Pretty sure we kill all those slots besides Prism and win.

Unless we miss -> one of them suicides as Not Chara -> last scum alive is the deepwolf not inside of there

Then we'd have to tryhard

i am so annoyed at this game
on one hand, the person i was townreading and who was townreading me, and who had very similar thoughts to mine about the game, was killed. maybe it is as easy as it looks.
on the other, did scum really just like??? lay on the floor and die??? and also if we miss today and maaaybe tomorrow, i'm gonna be next in the firing line, and holy hell i am not in the mood

[Tanner]

Part of me is now wondering if Tayl0r did the vote knowing it didn't count. I've assumed it was an honest mistake as either alignment either way just because that seems more likely, but bussing Sujimichi with a vote that won't count is the ultimate bigbrain move here.

now i'm thinking about this, since she never made that mistake up until then, but i'm too small brain to get the scum motivation behind that

[Tanner]

tbh i didnt even remember chara scumreading those posts. i was having a bad day tbh. honestily i think im kind of obvtown, so ive been ignoring most of the scumreads on me (except you tanner ) but i always think im obvtown so if im wrong and someone wants me to jump in here lemme know

i feel honoured <3

i dislike not having a vote on someone, but i'm not feeling this as strongly anymore, and it is anyway probably not happening HURT: isis

Admittedly some of my read is warped by generally feeling like town datisi often feels on the lurky/reactive side even though that may not be how he conceptualizes his play and anything I say about him is going to be six months out of date anyway.

this confuses me, because (you're right that that isn't how i would conceptualize my general townplay, off-games happen) i feel like my play this game has been exactly lurky/reactive. i'm not gonna argue about tone because i don't see anything productive coming from that discussion, but can you get into what makes you think i'm scum from the meta-perspective?

This is scummy

thank you krazy very cool

got a feeling if there's someone oppotrunistically jumping on me, it's tayor sooner than krazy or even puppy
the progression on me went from "probably town" to "this is a weird townlean from you" to "? gut ?"

Tanner is datisi.

wait really?

yes

if i were scum fine to end it id concede. if i were scum trying to lurk it out: lol. if i were scum otherwise, id be putting up a fight and making some garbage up.

being engaged with a game is null, but being apathetic is town-indicative for me

i believe you and this is why i don't want to vote you. :<

taylor, what do you count as "making garbage up"? because your read/push on me kinda feels like that

i'm reading the prism/hectic thing and like... earlier my tinfoil scumteam was hectic/morning-tweet and now i'm thinking of beeboy's heal again and sighhh

if lavender is scum here btw i am officially joining tanner in running to the nearest CVS, buying a $10.79 handle of popov, and downing it in under a minute

please don't hold me to this i don't drink my tolerance is super low but i will do some wine one night

i actually forgot about that slot
this close to saying to hell with it and trying to fight them again

3) people there engaged with me. here people ignored me for like 65 pages. if you want me to play you sometimes need to put some pressure on me.

you mean like when i was begging you throughout day one to play and give us something?

[Tanner]

Wait, Prism, we can both agree that Tayl0r is either town, or scum with exactly me (based on yesterday's actions of not voting Ele'sclunterwagon which was me, and beeboy pushing her).

While Sujimichi could be scum with many.

Let's FIGHT Suji today and if Tayl0r/I flip as Chara, simply FIGHT the other tomorrow for the win.

While, if we FIGHT Tayl0r and she's town, and Chara!Suji escapes, the game will get a whole lot harder if you're town,

since there's no obvious partner outside of you.

One of these orders makes infinitely more sense than the other.

?

[Tanner]

right, fair.

the reason taylor doesn't make sense as scum with anyone but you is why you were townreading her in 1590, right? (remind me if here's anything else, i don't do well with reading a lot of contentful pages at once...) erasing any opportunity to jump on your wagon later?

my room-temperature bad-VCA take is that beeboy is prob town for how "fast" the wagon was there but also that i'd be willing to vote there if really necessary

Very much disagree with this. What do you think scum would do in this situation if beeboy is town? There were no other viable counterwagons as more people started voting him, the other largest wagon at the time was actually Chara on 2 votes, and you can be the judge of how likely scum thinks that'll go through.

The rate at which the wagon grew tells me very little, since scum in equal parts would want to get on for buscred if they think he's going down, but what does alarm me a little is no one taking up the opportunity on the Tayl0r counterwagon that arose a little later. catboi and beeboy both voted her and i wouldn't have been surprised if it swayed some others, but no one else joined.

can we talk about this post? truth be told, i didn't/don't fully understand it, did you mean "if beeboy is scum*"?

i'm not sure what i'm actually asking of you here, because i'm looking for anything that's gonna make me actually want to vote someone more strongly than "lol idk i guess", and i feel like this post might be Relevant, so do you have anything to offer me about it?

[Tanner]

why is beeboy pushing taylor that non-partner indicative for you? taylor never got to more than 2 votes, and one of those was a "mistake" by catboi. if there were other people jumping on that wagon, i'd give this points, since that would mean scum was actually trying to push that through, but considering nobody did, what makes you rule out s/s push that's obviously going nowhere?

[Tanner]

i feel like i'm braindead today, lemme know if i'm comically missing the point

devil's advocate answer to the first one is "because late votes don't give towncred" but ehh

okay, so, you're arguing that scum!beeboy thinks he has a chance of getting out of the noose, and is seriously trying pushing taylor through / thinks the wagon has a chance. and the other two scum are doing ... ? they're standing by?

Lavender was being pushed by you and I don't think people would've had too many qualms voting there, so why not push there if it's beeboy/Tayl0r? Alternatively, he could push me with Prism, who was very tunnelled at that point.

lol i got a theory why he didn't push lavender but you won't like it

in all seriousness, doesn't this apply to almost any team other than beeboy/(hectic/lavender)?

[Tanner]

not sure why Hectic thinks we're in the world where Beeboy didn't give up on the game when it's pretty clear he did give up on the game.

The NK on Catboi imo is more AI for redtea!town than the beeboy vote on taylor is for taylor!town. There is also the possibility they are both town and we need to zoom out a bit more.

i heavily agree with this post but currently have no conclusions about hectic's alignment wrt this, will circle back to it in following days maybe

i don't know how i feel about the fact krazy is like... jumping around from this person to that person being scum, while still keeping the vote on me (so i'm assuming i'm still his strongest scumread), while continuously ignoring my attempts to talk to him,

while

shading hectic (1885) for refusing to work with him...

though him talking about hectic/morning tweet and that being my current tinfoil paranoia solve is not doing good things to my sanity

why does no one think lavender is scum here?

afaict everyone has them in their scumpool? do *you* think lavender is scum?

I think I know how to evaluate Lavender down the line probably and there is little info to be gained if we misfight them

i just remembered this post for some reason

@morning

is there an update on this?

i got to the bottom of page 79, i'm getting distracted, be back in a bit

[Tanner]

1977 - how is taylor not evil here????

what are your current thoughts/reads? who do you think we should eliminate today?

lavender or tanner. prism would be spicy but im not sure if im just tinfoil hatting or seeing things clearly

where did chara go? why are you now considering lavender? why am i scum other than ~*gut*~?

tanner doesnt feel like datisi. it could be the alt, datisi said as much. but theres definitely something off. theres none of the energy or solving you see from datisi

...? ??? ? ?? ?
you said you're not an alt, right? have you been reading my games or something? because i'm pretty sure we have literally never played together?

now i'm scum with lavender
you cannot be serious

Her partner could be a lot of ppl, but didnt Tanner try to swap the wagon off Elements to Lavender D1? Am I misremembering? I swear someone wanted us to swap to Lav but idk who.

it was me and catboi.

pedit: sure, lemme dig it up real quick.

[Tanner]

Which attempts to talk have I ignored? I would never ignore you Tantisi!

I am passing out at this particular moment but let me know what I missed and I'll get to it in the morn

ok i think it was just post 1859 but it was technically multiple questions

your meta on me is just... post-apoc and flying scumsman, right? those two are probably the worst games to meta me from

[Tanner]

HURT: lavender

i'm gonna go back to bussing i guess

[Tanner]

sorry to interrupt... whatever this is

w/e revisit Hectic another day, my focus for the vote has always been more on Tayl0r. Getting updated thoughts as to the current vote choices would be cool (Krazy, Taylor, Lavender...and Tanner?)

i wish i knew what my current vote choice is

lavender is my boring "coinflip lurker but if this flips scum i am a genuis" vote
taylor is my "idk i can see her being scum and also all hail prism" vote
krazy is my "i can see this being scum but i now feel very uneasy about this" vote

anyone else would be either 9000 iq deepwolf vote (tweet, puppy? am i even scumready puppy anymore?? i don't think so fuck this game) or a pure prism sheep

which at this point i might just do that

[Tanner]

Do you still want Lavender the most, or have you switched around a bit?

i'm gonna assume this is @me
and the most honest answer is
i do not know
i'm sorry i just fkcinfeowg don't know

i feel like we're going in circles and are getting nowhere and i'm getting tired of this day even though i feel like i've done nothing

at this point i would be willing to vote taylor, sure

ask me in two days and i'll probably be willing to vote myself

[Tanner]

i genuinely do not see the need for all the confusion and debate and anxiety. we're in a great position right now

playing mafia??? without feeling anxiety????? how do you do it friend

Chara. Why Lav over Taylor?

thinking about odds. thinking about the Lavender wagon day 1 and Tanner's opinion on the matter. thinking about Taylor's "Chara and Tanner" post and her laughably unexplained reads from earlier in the game, before she started making readable content, and what that means for a scum Taylor.

hi what opinion of mine are you thinking about, i don't wanna be held responsible for this town's downfall

[Tanner]

a town miselim on day 2 wouldn't be our downfall, Tanner. and i didn't mean to imply this is a sheep vote. it's not.
weren't you trying to eliminate Lavender day 1, and at some point did you make the comment that her wagon would have been easy to pivot onto but only beeboy took the bait?

ok but what if we execute lavender because of me and then taylor/krazy flip chara and then i get executed tomorrow and the last scum is actually a deepwolf and we had it but i had to force my own shitty fight through and we lose because of me??? ok this is a very realistic scenario, we can't ignore it

yes, i was making that point, and i'm still kinda thinking about that. except it wasn't beeboy who jumped on that wagon, it was catboi.

[Tanner]

Okay, either way, I'm going to not give into my despair by the sudden onset of 4 (5 incl. Tayl0r, 6 incl. Krazy which makes majority) on Lavender, but I will take a break before I get too emotional again

i still love you deep down chara but i'm sleeping on the couch for awhile, maybe this can be salvaged but maybe it can't. i...i just don't know

4 on lavender? i thought it was only me and chara right now...

do you want me to not vote lavender today? i can do that.

[Tanner]

who is opposing voting taylor? except maybe morning tweet? did i miss something?

ok sorry i'll stop you can go get some test dear dictator

[Tanner]

get some rest*

whoops

[Tanner]

this game is soulsucking
here are my garbage notes

- @morningtweet please respond to the bottom of my 2041

- @krazy 2044 (also why don't you like me krazy )

- @taylor 2043

- i'm glad we've ruled out town!lavender + notchara!krazy but i also wish krazy hammered that so this day was over

- i don't understand what is going between chara and prism and at this point i am too afraid to ask

[Tanner]

I do like you

Why do you think those games are bad meta for you?

(1) they're hydra games (so i'm obviously playing differently than i would solo)
(2) they're large themes (anything over 14 players and i am completely lost)
(3) for those games specifically

for flying scumsman i was told the game wouldn't be an "actual mafia game", but would instead be just shitposting, having fun, and doing those challenges. that was a goddamn lie. for the first day i barely read anything game-related and just let my hydra partner do the heavy lifting (sorry...), and when i started actually reading bits of it later i still didn't really care about that game

for post-apoc, my reads (or what i had of them) were flipping wrong and i just completely lost motivation d2+ and basically just prodged? like i think that is literally the only game of mine where you'll find me saying "i don't know, i have no reads, just kill me"

though my question still stands, i do feel like i'm being more lurky/reactive this game than town!me usually is, and you described my usual townplay as that iirc, so uhh... what gives?

How many people just really want this day to end? I still feel like I just replaced in so I'm like not in a rush at all but I do appreciate that long days can be really demoralizing

it's not that it's long, it's just... i dunno. we have an empty slot, and the lack of any serious counters to the scumflip yesterday have left us in a very weird state

and i still feel like we're exactly at the same spot we were at the beginning of the day, i.e. we're going to flip one of taylor/lavender/krazy

[Tanner]

words cannot describe how much i don't feel like playing this game right now but i have this sinking feeling if i don't reply people are gonna cry "datisi is online but isn't responding hurr durr ellitell hurr durr scum!!!" so here we go i guess

[Tanner]

though my question still stands, i do feel like i'm being more lurky/reactive this game than town!me usually is, and you described my usual townplay as that iirc, so uhh... what gives?

When I replaced in, you were talking about the necessity of lynching "lower" slots, dropping lists, and pushing dog, a read you seem to have kinda almost entirely lost interest in?

Like coming in on 57/58, that would not give me the impression of a lurky reactive player, my first impression of those pages was that you were one of the more active players. You have dropped off in the last thirty pages or so but you haven't given any sort of sense of apathy in the same ballpark as post-apoc for sure.

Since then you keep listing me in the bottom three pool but at this point I honestly can't remember why you even put me there

and I do remember you being capable of having stronger reads, I'm just trying to remember the games you were in that gave me that impression and I'd have to look back at our shared games

but yeah, maybe your self-conception of your play this game is thrown of by my impression based more on where I entered the game and what I read when I entered. But every time you have posted I've kinda been like, "huh yeah tanner seems like scum" -- like even right now your questions seem kinda scummy lol. Maybe the reason I wasn't updating my meta discussion of my read on you was because I wanted to see how you engaged with the evolving conversation and real time interaction is generally better than meta anyway?

yeah i've pretty much lost interest in the puppy read for the time being. i feel like it's my paranoia speaking, and if he's not a viable execution today anyway, there is literally no point in bashing my head against the wall about it today

i've said why you were in the lower slots. somewhat bad associates, weirdly timed drop-out, scum-indicative replacement. you'll notice i'm not voting you, though. the fact you're in my "lower" slots is because i'm being objective about "what execution is possible today", not "what do *i* want". i don't know what i want, i've said that so many times. this game is confusing, i was wrong on day one, i might be going wrong again.

though the longer this goes on (and i'm somewhat certain you're not chara) the more i have the urge to just give in and start pushing for your fight. either you're scum trying to set basis for my execution the next day, or you're town and wrong and tunnelled. because frankly it's getting annoying to read "oh everything tanner posts is kinda scum". i'll decide later. i need to go now anyway.

[Tanner]

okay. part of me is saying to send this game to hell and let myself get flipped because even if i don't die today, i'm probably (barring us hitting scum again or someone clearly not s/s with me flipping chara) dying tomorrow. then i realize i'm being dramatic. anyway.

krazy, how interested are you in me writing rebuttals to you? i can go point-by-point through 2219 if you (or anyone else, really) think it'd help you sort me. but that's effort that i simply don't have the willpower for if it will just get glanced over and tossed aside, which my pessimism is telling me it will.

HURT: taylor

maybe i'm omgusing. i don't care. i utterly hate 2217 & 2221. i "looked up a couple of your games" without saying which ones those were. "oh i'm not doing associates" feels like the scum-lazy answer to justify voting either me or lavender. "oh isn't not liking a game scum!indicative" also just feels like made-up BS honestly.

the sequence of posts from hectic almost makes me think he's scum who fucked up. kinda like

"tanner is being too tryhardy, therefore he's scum!!"

wait shit no that's town!indicative for him

"err he's chara!!"

almost. would be funny if that's the case.

@pooky, chara!me absolutely makes those posts. if my strategy is to go all-in on genocide (which it probably wouldn't be, but i'm not scum so kinda hard to tell), i would've refused a spare. and 502 would be one of those posts i make as scum then copy-paste it into the scum pt and laugh about it. i also make them as town though, so. y'know.

[Tanner]

some games the townspewing machine is simply broke and i get executed and then people go "wait how did that flip town??"

krazy i'm gonna assume you're not making fun of me in 2240 because it's seriously killing my morale if you are

[Tanner]

ok i've been staring at the empty textbox for like 10 minutes now.

i'm interested in solving. i know it sounds dumb just saying that. but i'm also trying to be ~realistic~. i know if, say scum is prism or tweet, we're very very unlikely to actually get them executed today. therefore it's not something i'm going to spend a lot of effort on because i can tell it is never happening.

this is frustrating because i feel like you're bashing my "lynchbait" reads for being lynchbait (everyone other than puppy) but earlier you were bashing my puppy read for "pushing on obvtown isn't towny". i'm reading the arguments for town!you. they are why i haven't given up and voted suji before. i don't want to flip you right now. hell you were never closer than my top 3rd choice today.

your take about "resistance"-based arguments is subjective. coupled with the screwing-NKA point is like... feels like "tanner is scum therefore this is what he is trying to do with these posts." like scum screws with NKA. sure. and town attempts NKA. there literally is no possible response to this other than "ok but i'm town tho" which nobody is impressed by and sigh.

again, your point about 1644. "feels like scum panicking at townies finding each other." or it was town not understanding your progression on hectic. either one.

"have confidence people will find town in me" is laughable considering i'm universally in the upper half in the PoE and next in the firing line if we miss today/maybe tomorrow. people obviously *aren't* finding the town in me. i'm going to argue about it.

it seems like you're tunneled on me, but maybe i'm used to being townread as town.

it's just... i'm annoyed because i feel like i just spent 30 on a post that can literally be summarized as "no u". because that's what it feels like. you're making arguments saying why things that i did come from scum and i don't know if i have a response better than "they don't". and like, i really wanna just write this off as "lol scum pushing on me" but i don't think i can say that in good faith.

[Tanner]

sigh.

should i point out how one game of meta is a recepie for disaster with me or will that also get spun as "scum annoyed they're being correctly metaread"?

[Tanner]

at the moment, it's taylor.

[Tanner]

hello i'm sorry, this is a shameless prodge, i've skimmed a bit, if anyone has any burning questions for me i'm here for a bit, but any actual analysis coming tomorrow maybe

please accept this dumb meme i made as an apology

Spoiler:

So I've been working on the Tanner ISO. I'm through about 101 posts of 128.

I feel

significantly

better about this slot and strongly doubt it is scum. Every single piece of this ISO lines up. Every read, every progression, every single thought one way or another gets tied together or shines through later down the line past-present-future. The only mistake Tanner-scum has made all game long is overplaying his paranoid hand of Puppy, but even the early stages of that (until 1440) are actually really good, even though I disagree in his conclusion it all adds up extremely well.

I'm starving so I'm taking a break for lunch, but I'll finish the last 27 posts and I'll try and type up a more complete wall outlining what I mean w/ clear examples when I get back.

I don't think there's any way that I vote this slot today.

Oh jesus christ based off timestamps I've been at this for almost 2 hours

[Tanner]

Spoiler:

I request Datisi/Tanner do one of these for this game. It is an invaluable scumhunting tool.

it is so ironic you say this while quoting the one triangle i ever made where all scum were in the "town" portion

anyway here is triangle

i will now reply what i need to reply to

if there's any questions, shoot

(also in the meantime, how do i go from "i don't see scum in this" to "regular wolf" for you, pooky?)



also prism if you're scum, there's gonna be tears post-game, just saying

[Tanner]

you gave

me

a panic attack with that hammer, if it makes you feel any better

[Tanner]

I don't have any big points. It's just that I've played a really traumatic game with TownTisi and he was so blatantly obviously town like it was as obvious as the sun in the sky.

here there is just darkness

fun fact, i've heard this before.

i had a game where i was blatantly obviously town similar to [game that shall not be named], autumnal mafia. and the people that played in that game used the "datisi was so towny in that game, he's not here, is he scum???". and guess what, i was town every single time that happened:

Datisi hasn’t struck me as particularly Town yet, which I expect from them early on.

Comparing to the last game [autumnal mafia] we played?

Yes, you were very obviously Town that game from early on. Not sure if it was just that game? I’ll have a look back.

I don't actually have a solid scumread on Datisi. It's some mixture of an lolsolve/paranoia/gut. I don't know how to articulate it. I guess it's also notable that Datisi was obvtown in Autumnal but isn't here, but that's not solid either.

I feel like I'm not remotely interested in voting Datisi but Autumnal he was absurd to the point I would bodyguard him after I got public copped so it doesn't seem good relatively.

[Tanner]

i dislike not having a vote on someone, but i'm not feeling this as strongly anymore, and it is anyway probably not happening HURT: isis

So this is your unvote on Puppy. I've got a pretty good idea of the events, but can you run down more explicitly why your read weakened? You were getting a lot of pushback, but I'm curious as to what was going on internally that made

your

perspective weaken.

some games the townspewing machine is simply broke and i get executed and then people go "wait how did that flip town??"

Can you link one/two games like this?

it started as "well everyone is telling me puppy is towny, and if i look past the sparing fiasco, i do see what they're talking about." then i kinda realized that scum is in a (probably) not good position here, and scum!puppy would have to like, start setting things up for the future days? because in our last game, he was similarly in a not very good position, and i caught on to the misexecutes he was setting up (that i then got killed over and nobody listened to me and they executed my townread in lylo but i'm not saly i'm not salty at all) and here he's just... not doing that?

also i'd be lying if i said there's not a trace of "well, even if i *am* right on him beng scum, this isn't happening today, and i'm not getting killed, so either

he

gets killed and i'm obviously proven wrong, or we're here tomorrow and i can start worrying about the scum!puppy world again".

as for games like that... jk9++ and newbie 1992 are the two most recent games where i got misexecuted. though i feel like i've played decently different in both of them than in here and i kinda fear this meta-dive will make you turn on me but /shrug

[Tanner]

I think this progression: "Day 1 wagon was sketchy, two conf town on counter -> Had to be a bus, right? -> Someone's a deepwolf, how are they going to capitalize on it? -> Spares, and Puppy is pushing spares -> Puppy scum?" much more plausible/natural than something that works in kind of the opposite direction "Puppy pushing for spares -> Scum? -> Makes sense if he bussed"

i almost said "THANK YOU" outloud when i read this, then one part of my brain said this is chara tying me to themselves for tomorrow, then i beat that part of my brain with a stick

First, Tanner:

There is one problem to me with your entire paranoia progression. You seem to have skimmed the ISOs of people off-wagon, and found redtea iffy. You've always been down to fight Lavender. At one point, you say this:

either (1) scum is actually all in the lower-influence "weaker" players and we have this game on lock, or (2) some mighty bus was happening yesterday... (2) scares me.

This is interesting to me, because you've kind of investigated only

parts

of either here. What I mean by this is you haven't investigated the possibility of deepscum too much despite being worried about it. Why are you not more worried about me, Chara, and Morning Tweet for example? How much ISO reviewing have you done of the stronger town slots?**

Second,

I'm a bit confused as to some of your more recent progressions in that it seems like you've gone into paranoid OMGUS mode repeatedly against slots that you're worried are pushing you. One of these that sticks out to me is your progression on redtea/Krazy seems to go haywire after Krazy replaces in and starts pushing you-you've backed off of the vote but haven't really indicated a change in his status, either. You give the reason to swap to Tayl0r based off of her questionable vote/push on you, but I'm really curious as to how you've been thinking about Krazy since his replace-in. I'm also curious for some updated thoughts on Lavender given your current stance on Tayl0r.

Third,

who do you have as more solid reads right now and why?

Spoiler: **Good progression I remembered too late footnote

This reminded me of the other important progression that stuck out to me+fits completely into Tanner's POV: How he worried about how legitimate/good faith Hectic's push on him was all throughout the 1100s/1200s, but especially in 1216. Again, deepwolf fears combined with Tanner's paranoia of getting pushed as a misfight make this pretty believable. I feel like I had more substantial comments here 6/7 hours ago but alas. Will probably get another chance to read them very soon.

first,

my thoughts when the game is going *really well* (i.e., got a scumflip on day one in a setup where scum should really make sure that doesn't happen) is that we're either townstomping this game or we're not. the plan is then to assume the former but keep the latter in mind. which means flip the "lower" slot or two, if they're scum, great (and in this case we win, yay), if they're not, something has gone

very

wrong.

i've done nothing to review the stronger town slots, because i'm currently under the assumption that this game is going well and that everything is fine. if i get proven wrong, that's the time when i need to start reflecting. also because i know "stronger" town slots aren't getting flipped anyway and i don't have the willpower to review slots that aren't getting flipped today anyway and the game might be over soon too.

i did this in both the recent run of pyp and why gun?? if you're interested

second,

i understand that i'm among the lower slots and one of the slots scum will have to push through if they want to win. i'm trying to keep an eye out on who that might be. and krazy replacing then pushing me gave me a vibe of "scum in a not good position entering the game, attacking a low-but-not-lhf slot, trying to seem productive."

i... don't really know what i think about krazy? i have a feeling he should be able to read me here, and i know if he's scum, he can't afford to townread me. but also i'm aware that historically, attacking people for not being able to read me usually ended in a disaster. and i get the points against him being scum, but in a vacuum i don't know if i can blindly sheep that.

thoughts on lavender are... N/A. at this point i' m just hoping we manage to sort that slot via associates or get it resolved at some point. i'd be lying if i said i didn't feel uneasy about how easy she picked up votes, though.

third,

look at triangle. you/chara are the townreads i'm not gonna be even thinking about until absolutely necessary. morning is town* except paranoia. pooky/puppy are town* except i can see a world where they're scum but that is a day-4!tanner problem.

hectic is more and more fitting the "scum that needs to keep me as a viable vote", but i don't think i can commit to that read with how day one played out.

in short, my reads right now are crap. i don't know.

[Tanner]

Σ(-᷅_-᷄๑) trying to figure out who would actually make sense as being teamed with the elements slot and it's, like...lavender, taylor, redtea, or

I guess

Prism and that's it. Hrm.

is this post why catboi died >.>

selective evidence, scum

[Tanner]

i did this in both the recent run of pyp and why gun?? if you're interested

forgot to go back and link this.

in fact, this post

Spoiler:

the only thing that's genuinely bugging me at this point (since i'm gonna pretend i trust hectic's read there for the time being) is why *didn't* scum try to get lhf!town!lavender? especially since if Not Chara were to hardpush her through, they could do so without consequence. like, from my pov, the only two people to ever actually vote there were two town. was hectic really that convincing with that read?

i don't have a satisfying answer to this. i am instead quoting this post for further study postgame once all alignments are known, because i think it's interesting and maybe, finally, i could learn something about mafia theory.

i'm pointing it out because i did correctly call scum out like that once - a lurker-lhf slot that i was calling out day one, but nobody listened to me except 1-2 very towny players. we ended up kinda deadline-consolidating on executing a different scum. on day two, i pushed the lurker-lhf slot through because "if we were on-course to execute scum on day one, why didn't scum bother to jump on this lhf!townie and make me look bad tomorrow?" got a scumflip on day two as well.

the only difference i think is that... well, there wasn't a hectic in that game who was defending them. which is what's giving me pause, since scum could've been afraid of him. which is why i'm still debating with myself about actually pushing lavender through, especially since i'd be signing my own death warrant if they flipped green, and i don't fancy us getting two green flips for the price of one, because of my own reads no less.

was about the why-gun game, with the very similar scenario day one - around mid-day, a prelevant wagon on scum!norwee that ended up getting pushed through, with one of the first counterwagons being on porkens (a slot that was pretty similar to lavender, basically doing nothing) with the only people joining being townie slots, then that wagon fell apart, the scum!norwee wagon went though, with nobody even trying to touch the porkens wagon anymore.

i made a similar argument at the start of day 2, either we're stomping the game or something is very wrong (because why was a counterwagon to scum only touched by very townie slots?), and for that we need to flip porkens. we flipped him, he was also scum.

as said however, the differences are that (1) the pork counterwagon to norwee was around mid-day, not last moment as it was here, and (2) there was no hectic in that game screaming about how that is pork's town meta. i'm... not exactly sure what the point of me typing this out is, when i don't know myself if i want to vote lavender anymore, but... whatever.

[Tanner]

There's no reason for me to push you

today

as scum, Tanner. You're just my biggest lead for today (non Charas) and I don't even scumlean you, it's sad state of affairs. I guess I can represent that by HURT: No One for now.

sure, but scum has to survive 4 misexecutes, not just one. and i think i'm almost guaranteed to have to be one of them, considering day one. that's why i'm trying to see if i can figure out who is trying to shitpush me. i think i heard our good friend bangle say once, if you're town, and the consensus is that you're scummy, you're in a unique position to solve because you know the consensus is *wrong*.

[Tanner]

you gave

me

a panic attack with that hammer, if it makes you feel any better

why though?

because i was townreading prism? to be fair, it was probably a "oh god fuck me, i was right that this wagon was way too fucking easy" more than a heart attack

(also in the meantime, how do i go from "i don't see scum in this" to "regular wolf" for you, pooky?)

I re-read your posts in the 30 hours prior to Beeboy getting elim'd and it felt a bit like waffling scum. I'm not sure how comfortable Datisi-Scum feels about bussing even in a slam-dunk bus-case like Beeboy.

i would get on that bus so fast, i probably wouldn't have changed my vote from him back when i did vote him at the beginning as a tweet sheep, at least until i was *very* sure he isn't flipping

So what I'm finding strange here is that it looks like you were worried about deepwolf, saw signs of Puppy deepwolf, and investigated Puppy, but

didn't

really investigate anybody else. I think following your first lead and not really expanding it to others is fine, but I'm wondering how/why you chose not to question your read on others if the mindset I'm ascribing to you is accurate.

i was specifically on the lookout for who was gonna *seriously* push for spares. i was never planning on actually seriously rereading isos of the "stronger slots" today (though i very rarely do that anyway), it was more of a "i'm gonna go where my gut takes me", while still knowing it's very unlikely that any of the stronger slots actually get flipped? in a sorta "there's no point to it anyway" pessimistic outlook?

i have not slept a lot last night, what are words

"i'm aware we're probably gonna end up flipping a lower slot today, i think that's the correct choice and i will most likely end up voting there, in the meantime i'll entertain a thought of a deepwolf if anyone's behaviour strikes me as deepwolf-likely, while knowing they're very unlikely to get flipped, *while* keeping in mind that if we start getting townflips on lower slots it's time to ~seriously~ investigate them"

i hope that garbled mess makes sense

is it? i mean, it's fine, but it's pretty much the same shrug PoE we've been dealing with for more than a week, also starring Hectic.

and people ask why i'm sick of this day that has been going on for like? 14 days now?

[Tanner]

oh yeah when i saw tweet comment on taylor asking for herself to get fought i had a thought of "huh that kinda sounds like chara reverse-psychologying us into not flipping her today" but i don't know anymore

[Tanner]

my brain is telling me that hectic is planting the seeds for my execute in the future days of this game

my heart is telling me this is taylor-notchara and krazy-goon and that taylor's normal vote of suji is somehow connection to them being partners

my brain is then telling me "quiet, you fool, prism will end you"

[Tanner]

Actually looking at the triangle thing again I feel like I'm somehow more confused on what the difference between lavendar and pooky would be. Is lavendar 'unsure/null' while pooky is 'confident nullish leantown'?

the closer someone is to the top corner, the more i'm internally confused about their alignment. like pooky is "leantown" while krazy is "l? E?? ...an?? t-t, , ,oW??? N? ?"

at the very top, there is no alignment, only ???????????

(that said those are individual reads and currently i'm betting on lavender!town simply because of their wagon but we saw what happened last time i bet on someone being town because of their wagon in this game)

My pick for the day is still Taylor. I think that flip either wins us the game or gives us a ton of info between it+the Chara flip. Lavender basically nets us...me town if she flips town. Who cares?

i think i'm ~around here actually? i'm ready to die of alcohol poisoning if lavender flips chara i guess

also i'm vibing with the reasons why hectic is unlikely not-chara

i hate catching up on 7-8 pages and having basically nothing but fluff to say and i feel bad now but whatever

[Tanner]

i'm ready to die of alcohol poisoning if lavender flips chara i guess

actually considering lavender is currently the leading wagon, i will point out this is true only if not-chara!lavender eats buttercups, not rope

i need to take a look at why hectic is townreading taylor so hard again... ugh...

[Tanner]

Mafia can't bus here. Shouldn't scum wagons, in theory, be a little slower?

in theory, yes

in practice, i've heard that White Flag Gambit is a powerful thing

[Tanner]

VOTE: sujimiji

collects and displays all the newly earned scumpoints

Hey Taylor, I'm still really curious about making your Tanner/Chara reads more accessible to us, but can you walk us through the Sujimichi vote and why you chose not to revote it with the hurt tag?

i didnt revote because i didnt realize the first one didnt count

i don't know why i'm convinced the secrets of this game are contained within these two posts but

taylor never made this mistake on day one!! that has to mean something!!

[Tanner]

do i look like i know absolutely anything about this game

the answer is no

no, i don't

[Tanner]

You look so cool and composed on your avatar though. Maybe I should switch to waluigi to emanate the same vibes.

that's true, maybe that's why my posts give a different vibe

also if you're here can you remind me why it's lavender>taylor or link the taylor case or tell me your thoughts on lavender or something

i wanna pretend like i'm doing something when it's 17h till deadline

[Tanner]

wait, buttercups are flowers?

[Tanner]

i feel very dumb now nevermind

i have never heard of that word before, i thought it was some sorta buttery candy in a cup >_>

my english is bad <_<

makes sense why in the ad of this game she's eating flowers >_<

[Tanner]

Pivot off me yesterday when it was meVEle, and beeboy hard pushing for her.

i don't think i buy the second because beeboy was basically dead and i don't think taylor was ever getting through at that point, but that's the second reason you had that i was forgetting

so i went back to 1590 and ughhh

i don't know. i feel so stupid pushing for lavender all of day one and i'm now getting cold feet.

[Tanner]

i'm reading prism's points on why hectic is scummy and like "this probably makes sense, prism knows what they're talking about"

hectic's push on me felt like scum knowing the pool is tight and they need to have some nice progressions so they're setting me up for a later day - the counterpoint to this is that i've thought this same thing about all of hectic/krazy/puppy/maybe ever taylor i don't remember

but hectic's points on why he doesn't hardbus there? i dunno? it vibes? at least not as not-chara?

i don't think i want to vote for hectic today?

[Tanner]

Why doesn't Hectic make sense as the Chara?

chara-hectic doesn't lolbus elements?

like that's genuinely as profound as my reads go right now

[Tanner]

Why doesn't Hectic make sense as the Chara?

chara-hectic doesn't lolbus elements?

like that's genuinely as profound as my reads go right now

dont want to start second guessing reads this late in the phase

but this post just doesn't sit right w/ me RN. tanner, could u elaborate on this even a little? if not, can u explain what u don't like about the game that's making it hard to make a better read here?

this game is confusing. i have "The Townblocc" and then i have the confusing mess that is 4 people i thought/think are viable votes or that i would maybe vote. i'm grasping at straws, i don't know how to read hectic, i never did. fear is telling me he's tried to shitpush me multiple times, gut is telling me he's a townie. i don't know what else to tell you.

[Tanner]

right now processing what I think of tanner's soft defense of hecboy and some other things

i've literally never voted for hectic this entire game and gut is telling me to nuke you for this

uuuuuughghghghhhhhh why is this game like this

[Tanner]

it's not unfair to call that a soft defense of hectic, that's pretty much exactly what it is

but i've never voted for hectic and have been doing the similar "i see you're pushing me and you may be scum but i don't know if i really believe that" thing for much longer now

and 2686 gave me a felling your ~processing~ of me/hectic was some sorta facade to be able to call back on it at some point later on and further justify getting me voted out

no i haven't figured out how that would actually help you with that

pedits are not beign read, this is @krazy

[Tanner]

krazy, why is taylor your 3rd top town? and like what's suddenly with hectic being scum? i tried to ctrl+f those in your iso but it's 3am, help me out

[Tanner]

Spoiler: taylor on hectic

nah hectic and MT are both town

could you expand on this? what's your level of confidence in hectic town?

hectic town is more confident. hectic did some stuff day 1 that scum wouldnt do. early on pushing and continuing to push the spare argument.

apparently hectic and morning can only be scum with me, which if true clears both of them, but idk if thats good reasoning because a) preflip associatives, and b)the other scum is chara so things might be different

I'm honoured, you're too kind to me, Pooky

this reads as a bit too genuine to me. as though hectic is actually a deepwolf.

you all might not know me well enough to know this, but the quotes morning picked out are me towntelling, and im actually a bit disappointed that i made it so obvious. ironically, despite it being obvious none of you know me well enough to know that im towntelling there. except maybe hectic. and hectic didnt pick up on it.

hectic's defense of himself is that i can only be scum with him, and that im town, therefore he must also be town. but the fact that i can only be scum with him (which you might contest) says nothing about whether he can be scum with other people. but it does explain why hectic is so insistent on defending me.

usually hectic is extremely paranoid about me and kinda assumes im scum. the fact that hes not doing that here means hes probably scum

HURT: hectic

"i don't get this at all" is the nicer version of what this post said before

[Tanner]

don't fucking make me feel responsible for any of this i don't want your vote pooky

krazy/hectic/beeboy would truly be the best timeline
and by the best i mean hectic why

i still don't think hectic is scum and i'm going to bed
i will appear from The Void some 6 hours before deadline until the very bitter end

preference i guess? is taylor > hectic >?=?< lavender
(also krazy is probably in there somewhere but i don't want prism to yell at me)

[Tanner]

tanner, brother, let's link hands and do this together

my vote is on taylor, i don't know how else i can help you

[Tanner]

checking in to say that i have awoken from my sleep

also friendly reminder that if there is no majority by deadline, town will literally just lose because scum will spare not-chara

if you have a green role pm (or are pretending to have it) pls vote k thx

[Tanner]

Whenever the deadline closes on any town-controlled day decision, unless otherwise specified, the mafia are privately contacted to choose among the town's legal choices instead. **********************

if there's no majotiry by deadline, scum gets to choose what we do

and guess what they'll choose lol

[Tanner]

hello prism i am also here and dying (both on the inside and outside) with you

and if that does happen i will personally blame myself for not remembering to point this out yesterday

[Tanner]

lavender if you're town please vote taylor

[Tanner]

WHOEVER VOTES TAYLOR WILL BE LOCKTOWN FROM HERE ON OUT BY ME

[Tanner]

at the time of me writing this, it is about 7:30pm. some 2 hours since the flips were posted. i've cracked a beer open, i'm having popcorn, and i'm dead inside. i'll be posting this as soon as day three dawns. if i don't live to see the sunrise, i will instead post this in the dead thread of whatever afterlife awaits me.

then i kinda realized that scum is in a (probably) not good position here, and scum!puppy would have to like, start setting things up for the future days?

because in our last game, he was similarly in a not very good position, and i caught on to the misexecutes he was setting up (that i then got killed over and nobody listened to me and they executed my townread in lylo but i'm not saly i'm not salty at all)

and here he's just... not doing that?

i am not a clown.

i am the entire circus.

I guess I'd need to review more on why you're obvtown or see yourself as such, but I don't in general think [tanner] pushing obvtown [puppy] makes them town.

this quote makes me want to gouge my own eyes out.

this not me taking a jab at krazy, his reads, nor his alignment. this is me being a salt mine.

WHOEVER VOTES TAYLOR WILL BE LOCKTOWN FROM HERE ON OUT BY ME

at first, i regretted making this post, since lavender hammered right after, and i thought i would have to break a promise. this post was made out of desperation, and i thought her hammering does not make her town, because she might've been scum scraping any sorta towncred she can by beating puppy to the hammer.

however... puppy flipped chara.

puppy had a clear-cut wincon of "don't show up". whether he accidentally played against that wincon by not realizing it, or was purposefully posting to stall to troll us, i don't know. in a theoretical puppy/lavender world, the best course of action is to tell lavender *not to post*. it doesn't actually matter if the town figures out puppy is stalling, because by the time we do figure that out (likely very little time left on the clock), it's very very unlikely 6 people show up to shift the wagon onto him, and at any town!fight, he's dead anyway.

we were expecting lavender not to show up at all. but she did. so i think the options are:
(1) scum!lavender, either unknowingly (not reading the thread nor the scum PT before making her presence known) or knowingly (???) played against wincon by showing up
(2) scum!lavender planned this exact sequence of events out with scum!puppy in hopes that someone locktown her for it rather than trying to go for the win outright
(3) lavender is town.

i would like some feedback on this, but i do genuinely think this makes town!lavender much much *much* more likely now.

ok the beer is starting to have its effects, i'm not sure if i had anything left to say in the opening post anyway
i think i'm gonna try to stop thinking about this game until day three

does anyone still think i might be scum in this game???? does anyone dare call my puppy push tmi??????? speak now or forever hold your peace because i *will* argue about why i should basically be an IC here

(i'm keeping this line even if i die, fuck it, i'll argue with the dead thread i don't give a fuck)

ok cool see ya in two days
cheers

edit some 2 hours later:

i lied. i'm thinking about this game. morning tweet is probably town for the similar reason as lavender. even if scum!tweet wasn't aware of the "scum chooses the action" thing, i'm assuming she would've at least checked the rules out when she saw my post, and i'm assuming she wouldn't purposefully ~not try to win immediately~ because she dislikes playing scum right? and now would have to play like 3 more days? ok cool

edit2:

it's like 1:30am. i'm thinking about this game again. hectic has changed his avatar into a depressed sonic drinking. man i fucking feel that. i've been ctrl+fing "launchy" in his iso. man that hurts. man that fucking hurts. i am in pain. we have wronged this man. unless hectic is like, 3rd scum who was calling out both his buddies since day one???? no. hectic. buddy. listen. we are a townblocc now.

ALSO THE NEXT PERSON TO SAY THE WORDS "WE SHOULD SPARE" IS GETTING DEATHTUNNELED NO MERCY

fucking hell

fuck the triangle we're going oldschool
maybe 1499 wasn't a *complete* disaster
let's try this again.

{tanner} - bruh my role pm is green
{tweet, lavender} - town because of deadline thing. more conclusive for tweet than for lavender. but eh.
{prism} - i refuse to believe this slot is scum. if this slot is scum i am going to cry so many tears post game.
{hectic} - this is my townblocc now. prism don't @ me.
{pooky} - i am vibing town!pooky. i just am.
{chara} - i have a feeling i haven't read anything about this slot in like years. did prism say chara is town? idk.
.
.
.
{krazy} - anyone other than prism give me * o n e * good reason why this slot isn't getting nuked into oblivion today

i don't actually know at this very moment why i *so strongly* feel like we *really* need to nuke this but i do
like my two Pure Gutfeels(tm) on day two were nuke krazy and nuke puppy

i haven't figured out the implications yet what chara!puppy means wrt day one bussing though
what was the wagon
why would chara bus but regular mafia not
ok that is one reason why i might not call to instanuke krazy here
hmmm redtea was gone though
h m m
H M M

ok it's 2am now and a friend is calling me i gotta go
i'll think about this in the morning

edit after daystart:

no nightkill? doesn't that mean that town gets an extra execution in genocide? that's... odd. very odd. i'll think about it. at some point. maybe.

[Tanner]

don't kill my town!pooky vibes p l e a s e

pedit: prism what are you doing

[Tanner]

ok fiiiiine i'll stop my anti-spare crusade for a bit to do math as well.

[Tanner]

PRAISE LAVENDER, BEST OF COLORS, HOLIEST OF HERBS, HALLOWED BE HER NAME

[Tanner]

goodammit prism i didn't read the pedits

No nightkill is strange, but does it give an extra execution? I think it just sets us on even numbers and makes us have to no elim. I haven't worked this out though so I should probably stop speaking.

in genocide, day five was going to be 3town v 1scum, and 2 conftownies. if we/scum kill every day/night, now it's going to be 4town v 1scum, 2 conftownies. it makes day five be 1/3 chance of winning, and day six 1/2 (assuming one of the conftownies dies).

[Tanner]

wait, am i wrong? is the game just *over* after day five despite no "classic" wincons being activated?

[Tanner]

day three, 7v1, 8 alive. assuming fight, nightkill:
day four, 5v1, 6 alive. fight, night four is skipped:
day five, 4v1, 5 alive, two confirmed towns.

2 fights left (4v1 > 2v1)?

[Tanner]

Zero :

The mafia must choose two players to be publicly investigated.

If Chara was fought, the mafia must choose everyone. Skip night 4.

[Tanner]

hmmmmmmmm i dunno why i still think hectic's town but

hectic, am i right in thinking that mafia!tweet never *ever* makes 2952, especially with both her and her partner not voting? that she tries to go for win-by-timeout rather than having to carry for 3 more days?

[Tanner]

i can't believe i'm saying this, but i realized *something* about this game where sparing might,

might

actually be a viable strategy. i'll have to run some numbers myself first though.

[Tanner]

also if you hard push someone and they don't get exec'd, when you flip as chara it makes the person you pushed look better.

you are right about this distancing gone wrong is a reasonable explanation.
my first thought is he would have not tried this day 2 after it ended that way day 1.

i agree - think this makes krazy locktown

am i the only one who saw his suji F-2 vote and like, got shivers?

[Tanner]

what sort of shivers?

puppy put suji at E-2. at the time where i was still in my puppy-tunnel state. while a suji fight was likely, it wasn't a forgone conclusion at that point. and that vote is the exactly big dick play that:

(1) makes me much much less likely to jump on that wagon. one because of the speed itself, which made me doubt beeboy!scum day one, and two because my paranoid-scumread is on that wagon so naturally i don't wanna touch it.
(2) if it works, and suji doesn't get fought, it looks *real* good for krazy on day3+.

i'll admit (2) is more important than (1). also i'll have to check how far prism was in defending-redtea at that time.

[Tanner]

ah, thank you.
so it would be a double nightkill.

chara, if there had been no hammer, scum would've chosen to spare puppy. the game would be over.

[Tanner]

he literally said he's just sheeping my suspicions there and that he doesn't really believe in that vote. gives him an excuse to be on the wagon while not having to actually push it through.

[Tanner]

I 100% would have faked falling asleep prematurely had I realized scum wins by doing nothing. I probably would have realized it but i actually didnt as town so I dunno

i dunno. my thought on this is that mafia!tweet reads 2951, sees me saying how "town literally just loses", goes "wait, what?" and actually reads the rules to see what the hell am i talking about. maybe i'm projecting though. idk.

anyway, i took out my notebook and wrote out all 8 possible paths (2spare, spare>fight, fight>spare, 2fight; with scum killing or no-killing on n3) and... i don't get why there wasn't a nightkill. my first thought was "oh, scum is saving 2 of townspewed tanner/tweet/lavender as the two day five public investigations as to give off the least amount of info", but... we get an extra fight.

i thought maybe sparing would be viable (since on the 1-3 path, scum must public-cop one non-spared player) to preserve the "obvtowns" from getting public-copped, but the loss of a fight just doesn't seem to be worth it? the worlds i see right now is (1) scum made a very bad blunder not realizing night 4 is skipped, (2) an extremely deep wolf (a la me or prism?? lmao what) is making a 9000+iq play, (3) someone wants us to believe (2).

i'm afraid i might be missing something since it's 11pm and math is difficult. whoever has the brains for this is welcome to try.

anyway, until further thinking, HURT: krazy.

[Tanner]

your eyes on the

city

ruleset.

[Tanner]

ok so i spent like 15 minutes staring at my barely-legible scribbles. i'm trying to see if there's a +EV path than genocide, but... i don't think so. the best i got is that, *if* we collectively agree that tanner/tweet/lavender are locktown because of the day two end, and *if* we're correct on that, *then* by sparing twice (or threatening to) we can force scum to kill tonight (because otherwise we just continue murdering on day 4 and we're back to 4 fights again) and to public-cop one of the "non-locktowns". however, we trade one fight for that, and it's based around those assumptions. so other than a cool thought exercise, i don't see the point.

ugh, the no-kill is making me paranoid, even though i have no idea what's it making me paranoid

of

. i feel like i'm missing something right under my nose.

i need to get up in like 6 and a half hour what am i doing

[Tanner]

Krazy is probably town because he's exceptionally adept with mechanics.

krazy butchered this game's mechanics at least once, though (2779)

i have a moonlogic tinfoil on why pushing for spares d1 is actually slightly +town for pooky but it's nothing but wifom so meh.

@pooky, can you run a few things by me:
- if you thought i was a regwolf in 2334, why did you never vote for me at any point?
- what was the thought behind 2692?
- just the tl;drs on every line in the table in 2891?

ok i'll pretend to be useful more later

[Tanner]

2692 is because of:

"uuuuuughghghghhhhhh why is this game like this"

i want to say that is easy to fake and isn't a towntell

then i remember i consistently forget to fake paranoia as scum

then i think if you should know that >_>

[Tanner]

The ideal scenario for the scum to exit D1 with in a fight scenario is townie dead and Chara credibly distanced off the scum no ?

that ideal wasn't happening though. the only viable fights were beeboy or hectic.

dunno. i wanna trash puppy's iso as wifom garbage, unless it supports my points i guess

[Tanner]

yesterday was de facto white flag, and you were talking about what redflips from taylor/hectic would mean. kinda took it to mean that you... didn't know that.

[Tanner]

i mean, same works in reverse... find a game where i either forgot to submit a kill, or no-killed knowing it would give an extra execute (and please don't make the argument that i didn't know that would happen), *while* showing up eod, reminding everyone that we need a hammer, as opposed to lurking then removing my vote when it's too late, where i don't tell my partner to lurk out as well, and knowing that the "oops i didn't know about that rule" would've been a viable excuse today considering absolutely nobody other than me was aware of it.

like, i don't get how you see that sequence of events and go "you know what? we should fight tanner."

[Tanner]

I haven't even begun to start evaluating the VCA and I'm still thinking about EoD, I just don't like your posting.

i mean, that's fine, but why do you immediately jump to "i'll probably still want to fight tanner" prior to doing any of that?

Why are you asking me to not make the argument you didn't know it would happen but feel okay making that argument for me?

because i'm starting to wonder if i'm the only one in this game that read the rules/setup in full. arguably either of us could've done it FoR tHe WiFoM though, so it isn't conclusive one way or the other i think.

I feel like you're trying to make an oog insult to me in the process of casing me here lol

:/

I feel like you really want this to be a 1v1

...which is fine actually, go for it

i don't "want" a 1v1. but right now i think you're the most likely scum, and you're doing nothing to convince me otherwise? and i don't mean necessarily convince *me*, like i feel like your reads are still virtually the same they were back on page 58

like this is how this game feels to me right now

[Tanner]

What do people think of my case? I'm debating on whether no one agrees with me or if no one bothered to read it €_€

i read it, but my takeaway from it was... N/A. you mentioned there's stuff from puppy's side, i was gonna wait for that then reread both cases in full again. like, it doesn't convince me i guess?

[Tanner]

i... thought it would've been clear it was light-hearted, but if in retrospect it wasn't, i apologize.

i've put thought in your alignment and in the others's. and right now everyone else seems more town than you.

[Tanner]

glorified prodge, weird day for me, is 3am, i'll be useful tomorrow

i thought both pooky/hectic town. consensus seems to be going pooky not town. idgi.

also (i think???) tweet said krazy is obvtowning rn so a tldr on that would be nice kthx

[Tanner]

okay. my motivation for the game of mafia the last 4-ish days has probably been the lowest ever since i've discovered the game in 2014. and seeing the long-ass pages of just pooky and hectic going on and on was not helping. but i'm here. i saw some talk about me which is easier to process than trying to parse the pages and pages of our couple having problems. so. i got booze. i'm gonna start Looking at this game. if anyone's got anything to ask me while i'm here, do say.

[Tanner]

yep

[Tanner]

Is your current thought something like Krazyscum with Chara, Pooky, and Hectic as the backup picks in approximately that order?

err, i guess? the thing is nobody other than krazy *makes sense* as scum to me right now. chara is the closest to scum of the rest, but my read in a vacuum there is a weird ~null~, i've been kinda sheeping your read there because i have a feeling i wouldn't be able to read them myself. (note i still have like 5 pages left)

[Tanner]

but you said they were locktown that one time!! what am i supposed to think!?

[Tanner]

i find it kinda funny that krazy is saying i'm hard-tunneled on him when i don't feel tunneled *at all*, and that i feel like he's hard tunneled on me when he says he doesn't feel tunneled at all. are we talking past each-other? i don't know. i'll see.

3191 is +town for lavender (as if we're discussing this slot anymore lmfao) because i think yesterday they said that my alignment will decide on what taylor flips (if i'm not mistaken it implied i'm scummy if taylor flips green) and they just dropped that and hmm

* ok as i'm reading 3229 i'm reminded that (1) hectic suspected both puppy and ele on day one (2) i opened day two pushing puppy and (3) hectic was pushing me for some time on day two. i need to revisit hectic's reasons for pushing me.

re 3235 pooky's ele case was actually what reminded me why i was suspecting ele and what made me okay with his fight. fun.

shit am i actually leaning hectic>pooky??? tbh reading the 1v1 between those two is a pain because i don't think i ever read either of the two right in a game ever

what if pooky is purposefully playing so different than in coalition just to get me pocketed

i think... i'm so glad there's only one mafia left because the Hectic v. Pooky would otherwise make me believe they're theatreing hard.

i actually thought this exact same thing ok chara is town i guess

i'm posting this garbage of a catchup now i'll be bacc soon

pedit: will do prism gimme a sec

[Tanner]

Hm, okay, I think a lot of the teams make some level of sense to me even if I ~think~ they're unlikely, can you maybe trace one line each for why?

ok so
why in my mind these people are not scum:

prism - ok so like idk they're putting in a lot of effort and stuff. their thoughts for the most part make sense to me. to be fair i have some Lingering Fears they might be a deepwolf but i'm actually just praying they get killed/copped by lylo.
tweet - i think she shares a similar feeling to playing scum that i do, which is "oh god get me THE FUCK outta here." and i really don't see her voting there at EoD. also hectic townreading her is interesting because since one scum remaining we can trust strong townreads more than before.
lavender - voting at EoD less conclusive than with tweet, but idk. coupled with hectic's read and what i said about them in my previous post, i don't think they're scum.
pooky - i had the front-row tickets to this teddy *obliterating* the town of coalition. and like. he didn't seem forceful here. he tried to go for spares. didn't work. ok cool he's just gonna chill. idfk it didn't look like scum.
hectic - man i do NOT know how to read hectic. but like. i was rereading his iso for launchy after day two flip and like. i FELT that. (note: i need to relook his reasons for pushing me day two take this with a grain of salt)
chara - bruh idfk prism is smarter than me. this slot is towny on its own but i think they're one of those people i'd be townreading regardless of their alingment so i'm trying to sheep someone who probably? maybe? knows better about them

and with krazy i just... don't have anything? yet???

[Tanner]

also i have to laugh at Tanner mindmeld-telling me as town, because i could just nod and move along but no i'm some kind of bastard that has to point out the tell doesn't work.

chara i am pretending to know how to play this game please don't call me out like this

pedit: prism i meant like "mafia" smart not "knows how to read rules" smart
like a dumbass program can go through if x else y rules such as the rules of this game
also ability to retain information does not make one smart

[Tanner]

cheers i'll drink to that

[Tanner]

well the Tanner paranoia is gone, if it comes back later would someone please spray me with a water bottle and direct me to my own words? thank you.

chara i appreciate this but how does that help with the feelings that my puppy push was tmi

[Tanner]

i guess what reminds me of that is how Pooky is suggesting we eliminate him repeatedly in this game. It seeeems like a losing play -- just like the no kill does. But maybe doing something ridiculous is all scum has at this point, idk

my problem with this is in the cursed game, i was screaming about how pooky is scum because he told people to eliminate him

he was town

Other than Lavender who probably forgot to submit

please don't do this to my poor mental health ok

[Tanner]

tweet have you ever explained why krazy is obvtown?