Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Prism]

concur with 2787

like forget trolling his team with bad plays, hectic did his damndest to throw this game if he's scum with krazy. spent eons trying to discourage me from flipping it.

[Prism]

im ready to proxy my vote off to prism or datisi and hectic's posting so far has made me feel more that he is scum tho I would be really feelsbad if he's not so I'm ok going with someone elses opinion at this point

HURT: noone

I really want Taylor because I think Hectic-townflip is a disaster. We still have to flip Lavender/Tayl0r depending on who Chara is.

Tayl0r townflip is not disastrous at all imo

[Prism]

Like, we need to be burning Taylor/Lavender early, not leaving them for the 50/50. Lavender should be the Day 3 fight because we can't risk them hammering the final day, but I don't think they're scum either.

[Prism]

tanner, brother, let's link hands and do this together

[Prism]

I'm 100% serious about flipping Lavender Day 3 though, absolute best time to do it. Their flip doesn't get a lot of info but it's a stall tactic to get small info/force another NK.

[Prism]

??? I mean the most straightforward gamestate is literally Hectic town for his Day 1 and you're harddefending Tayl0r peddling garbage about hectic-flip being better for solving when that blatantly is not the case

[Prism]

tanner, brother, let's link hands and do this together

my vote is on taylor, i don't know how else i can help you

hands held, we slowly turn to pooky

it is time, bear

[Prism]

YES BUT IT'S INOPTIMAL TODAY, SO... NO ¥_¥

??? who do you even want anymore

[Prism]

prism is your main problem with hectic wagon that tayl0r is on it?

My main problem is that I don't really see Hectic as scum with anyone except maybe Chara, and that is a big stretch.

I do hate how Hectic has played this game, basically start to finish. But it's plausible he's town anyway and that I'm wrong. And in that event, yeah, I'd rather see Tayl0r.

[Prism]

Just the fact that we can get a flashwagon on virtually plausible scum, with me being the holdoff vote, on everybody

except

Taylor is just such a giant redflag here.

[Prism]

Krazy? Flashwagon, Prism fights off.
Lavender? Flashwagon, Prism fights off.
Tanner? Minor flashwagon, Prism fights off.
Hectic? Flashwagon, Prism trying to fight off.

This entire time I have been moving heaven and earth to get us to flip Taylor and somehow it's the only one that can't get the damn votes.

[Prism]

My team order is basically like:

Taylor/Chara -> Hectic/Chara -> Something that involves at least one of my townreads

[Prism]

why must i protect my scumread

why must i be like this

[Prism]

it's not happening for one, second it's too PoE based and my reads are trash

[Prism]

Pretty sure we're only at 2 with me/Tanner, kind of hard to count skimming since the last VC was on 98

I'm going to take an hour or two break and then come back with a fresh head and try to more clearly evaluate this.

Right now I'm feeling incredibly pressured in multiple directions and it's too much for me to effectively tackle right now.

I'm in a position where I have to choose between believing in my own individual read, or face the logic that tells me it is likely to be wrong. The game is on the line, even though there will be other chances.

[Prism]

I think I'll need to reread Hectic again and make the call. But I'll take some time to relax and loosen up a bit, rather than take impulsive action in response to my own internal furor.

[Prism]

I'll be another ~30 but I just want to note

Scum or town, Chara, I really don't want to do this without you around.

[Prism]

yea i feel better about a TS vote now lol

Ironically, the recent posts make me feel slightly worse about it.

But over the course of my drive, I think I made up my mind without doing any reading.

I want Taylor. I'm reading through, anyway, though.

[Prism]

Yeah, I finished with all 3 ISOs. (I had already been working on them at the time of the above)

I hate how Hectic has played this game. I really do. I hate how quickly he gave out townreads; it felt like he was searching for them to be returned. He's worked backwards from someone being scum repeatedly-Elements to start with, beeboy on replacein, and Sujimichi too-rather than worked forwards imo. I hate how explicitly he baited out Lavender's list. His read on Pooky is sketchy, his omissions on Elements awful. His push for spares were awful, he knows basic math and knows that individually great odds of spares don't work in aggregate. I hate all the reasons he's given for his reads. I hate his tone, too. He didn't check out my ISO more like was natural to if he was really paranoid of me Day 1.

And yet it feels wrong. The progression and timelines line up even if the reasons don't make sense to me.

His progression on Puppy makes sense. His progression on Taylor does too. His progression on me is perfect. 1004 w/ beeboy is really good. The very end of the wagon happened pretty fast on beeboy but he definitely pounced on the readslist/lost comment from Elements, which isn't something that ever gets Elements back in the game as scum. He's got reason to buddy Morning, he's got reason to protect Lavender early for towncred if she flips, he has reason to frame Taylor, he's got reason to push Sujimichi through, too....but he's also got reason to do all of those as town.

And as much as I hate to say it, he's probably town.

This really sucks because I don't even get to claim the moral victory if he flips scum anymore. Now, if he is I have to take responsibility for blowing it instead.

Taylor's got some good sections. Her 482 about Elements. Her seemingly random jumparounds today. Her AtE. Her jump from Hectic to Chara Day 1 (viewed through lens of Hectic-town).

But I think it's her/Chara.

I want Taylor.

[Prism]

ur not player chara

speaking of which this is for you chara

[Prism]

I really hate making this choice-My reads have been wrong all day, something is likely wrong, and I feel like someone has completely beaten me, even though I've gone this far. It's a harsh feeling.

But if I'm being given a shot to win the game, I need to take it. I think it's best used on Taylor, and I'm using it on Taylor. And I'm sorry and will take full responsibility if it's wrong.

[Prism]

Why is it suddenly on you over me, Taylor?

We spent all game with me bad voting you, not engaging with your reads/asking you the same questions over and over, to now...?

Like I appreciate it if you're town but this feels a bit disingenuous

also pooky how am i not scum with hectic in these LMAO

[Prism]

Also, speaking of charts, I took a page out of catboi's book. If you want to see how I managed to drive myself insane, I made this ~5 days ago. Hasn't been updated.

[Prism]

I had Tayl0r/Morning Likely but not Chara/Tayl0r? What was I on?

[Prism]

Pooky is definitely off the table for you because he was a big part of the reason we stalled the day out, ie. really begging to be put into autoloss for that team

u might be w/ taylor though

for Pooky it doesn't take into account which is which, just the team period. ie. the results should be perfectly mirrored across the diagonal

[Prism]

if lavender flips chara i'm buying wine for the first day of day 3

if hectic flips chara i'm sprinting to the everclear

[Prism]

like if taylor flips town and someone else flips chara, sure, whatever, i shoot and i miss

if hectic flips chara i am never forgiving myself lmao

[Prism]

We can literally just flip Lavender tomorrow. There's little reason to do it today unless you feel there's a good shot it's Chara.

I really, really doubt it.

[Prism]

ie. I'd rather use the 2/10 on a real scumread and the 1/7 on the spectator who probably isn't even scum considering literally like, everyone has been down to default vote them today

[Prism]

bonus that it nets whoever is still playing a double vacation w/ back to back nightphases

[Prism]

Set sail, Pooky!

[Prism]

Oh I'm already voting her I think

HURT: T-Swizzle

DESTINATION T-SWIZZ ISLAND

[Prism]

This does hurt because T-Swift has been one of my top artists on Spotify this year

but love hurts

...Isn't that right, Chara?

...Chara? Where'd you go?

[Prism]

Listen, if I'm wrong, at least I was wrong on my own terms, I didn't run away like a big indecisive baby

[Prism]

thanks for being with me until the end, pooky

you did have my back

you great big lovable bear

[Prism]

If this is wrong btw I need to be left alive one more night so that I can drunkpost in shame, we're fighting Lavender D3 anyway so just shoot me the night after

[Prism]

It is a funeral. We've been stuck in this day together for what seems like forever.



Someday, this game will end. Hard to believe.

Literally we've spent over a week playing like it's three way no clear when we have 3 misfights lmao

I am sorry but also I'm not

Also it's L-2 I think Krazy, not L-1

[Prism]

My vote was for emphasis for Pooky

[Prism]

It has been 117 pages since Lavender voted

Based off the times of their previous posts there is a very good chance they do not vote Taylor today lmao

[Prism]

Oh holy FUCK I missed that, Jesus Christ what a terrible rule

IF YOU ARE TOWN DROP WHAT YOU ARE DOING ASAP AND HAMMER TAYLOR THAT'S ONLY F-1

LAVENDER THAT MEANS YOU FOR THE LOVE OF GOD VOTE AND REMEMBER TO USE HURT TAGS

[Prism]

None of Lavender/Chara/Taylor are likely to be here before deadline, if Krazy already went to sleep we are literally completely dependent on Puppy being town and checking the thread. Jesus Christ that would be the most pathetic way to lose of all time.

Morning swapping was great but that means me/Pooky/Tanner can't blitz Lav to salvage it

Pedit Oh thank fucking god

[Prism]

Take your time, there's 4 hours, but yes you should hammer pretty soon

My fear was if you didn't come, the other 4 players who could hammer would likely be AWOL and we autolose

[Prism]

5 votes on Taylor atm.

You/Chara/Lav/Taylor/Krazy are the offvotes

Chara is completely AWOL, Lav is too and hasn't voted since page 1, Taylor is off for the night and can't selfhammer even as town, Krazy might have gone to sleep

[Prism]

Hypothetically if one more person in addition to you/me/Tanner (Hectic or Pooky, basically) we could 4 person blitz Lav but those are literally our only options and I don't really want to do that even if it is hypothetically possible

[Prism]

Tanner's post on this page is why: Scum get to choose what happens if we take no action

They spare Chara, game over

[Prism]

If anyone was still wondering if Tanner was town btw, here's your answer

Literally just waits 2/3 hours and moves his vote and the game is over

[Prism]

I appreciate the dedication, being here bright and early, and wanting some agency in the vote

Simultaneously my heart could stop racing and I could sleep if you voted now thought later

help

[Prism]

me telling puppy to take his time but also desperately wanting a hammer before scum hectic/poorly check the thread and autowin by unvoting

[Prism]

Maybe I should have just said yes I want you to hammer right now instead of explaining it

Rather than risk Puppy going out for some

cigarettes

pupperoni sticks

[Prism]

ISIS IS STRAIGHT TROLLING ME WUTH THAT LMFAO OH MY GOD

SOMEONE HELP I'M DEAD

PEDIT OH MY GOD LAVENDER VOTE TAYLOR ASAP

[Prism]

TLDR IT'S YOU OR TAYLOR AND IF WE DON'T GET A HAMMER TOWN INSTANTLY LOSES THE GAME

[Prism]

I can't get over how hard Isis just trolled me with that "this vote doesn't count" Jesus Christ

[Prism]

BLESS

AND ON THE 120TH PAGE

SHE VOTED

[Prism]

So much to say from a shitposting perspective but I'm away right now

My instinct is that we punish that with a spare

HEAL: Tanner

We literally should have lost yesterday if he was scum, should have been a nobrainer nightkill

[Prism]

I'll do the math to check if my instinct is right in a bit, will also read the great wall of tanner then

[Prism]

okay i skimmed the wall

i don't have my quotewall of shame ready but

FIRST THINGS FIRST WE ARE NEVER LISTENING TO MY READS AGAIN THIS GAME LMAO puppy locktown and wanted to vote tayl0r/chara, another game for the Prism-town Wall of Shame for sure

you want to call hectic town that is in your right

SECOND is after 119 pages without voting, Lavender of all people showed up to save us from town autoloss, they aren't the hero we deserved but they are ABSOLUTELY the hero we needed

THE CHURCH OF LAVENDER IS NOW ACCEPTING NEW ACOLYTES

in recognition of this please be sure to type the following in gratitude: PRAISE LAVENDER, BEST OF COLORS, HOLIEST OF HERBS, HALLOWED BE HER NAME

THIRD even though Lavender gave us deliverance from our sins it was Tanner that was the prophet and this entire town should be super fucking grateful and for my part I am sorry I wronged you in shutting down your Puppy push holy shit

[Prism]

hallowed be thy name*

no pronoun listed

[Prism]

PRAISE LAVENDER, BEST OF COLORS, HOLIEST OF HERBS, HALLOWED BE THY NAME

[Prism]

It's even so it shouldn't affect numbers too much unless we fight all the way through, in which case scum benefits from us having a 1/3 instead of a 50/50 the final day

Sparing means they can't kill an obvtown, but should have some tradeoff for the investigation (normally scum picks 1 of 3 town to nightkill, 1 of 3 to clear, 1 of 3 to be their CC)

[Prism]

? I think you're off there, we're at 8 today. If they had nightkilled we'd be at 7

[Prism]

oh my god you're right i forgot about the n4 skip lmao

HEAL: no one

will still check out the EVs in a bit but this is gold

[Prism]

Also only one conf town I think, investigations is number of alive mafia?

[Prism]

bruh you two are out here regretting not pushing harder

i'm out here happy with the flip just because it told me i needed to rethink my entire life instead of continuing down this sinful path of being the scum MVP lmao

[Prism]

prism's final readlist

town: puppy/krazy/tanner

in that order

[Prism]

okay mafia is straight trolling you are right we not sparing i am not doing the math anymore lmao

[Prism]

why read the rules when i can misremember them like 9 times

[Prism]

hectic i haven't seen you praise they who gave us life when we had only death before us

are you a heretic?

[Prism]

I'll probably read the game again sometime tomorrow, I had some shitposts in mind if I lived but I wasn't going to throw myself down the wormhole again until I was confirmed alive so sorry for not having more actual alignment thoughts

[Prism]

Between this and yesterday I'm just glad Tanner is here to read the rules for me as I continue to just go "Eh yeah this'll be fine off memory" dart-throwing

p-edit: ur welcome bb

[Prism]

Spoiler: A look into Prism's brain post-Puppy flip

Aight I'll stop shitposting for a bit

[Prism]

I'd really recommend looking at the last few pages of Day 2 Chara. Super important.

[Prism]

Puppy also changed his avatar to one with an evil looking grin

I love it

[Prism]

Sparing was viable until you reminded me on the Day 4 skip, with the Day 4 skip they straight up gave us an extra fight for no reason.

Without the skipped it still would have been a mistake because it was a completely free spare with the same # of fights

[Prism]

Actually I guess I'm also forgetting the double invest vs. single in the second part, so sparing still wouldn't work, but w/e

[Prism]

tl;dr if you are wrong on how the setup works in two different ways you can spare!!!!!!!

[Prism]

It all started with the blocks my mom gave me when I was 19. I tried to put the triangular one i the matching hole, but it turns out that one was the square.

[Prism]

My reads and track of setup mechanics are the best evidence I have that my brain is like a big vat of scrambled eggs, cheese whiz, and one very excitable rat

[Prism]

I'm inclined to think someone just saw the number was even and no killed without realizing it gave an extra fight. That or they just forgot to submit entirely.

Maybe it was me, thinking I could dodge a fight with the "free spare" Ooooooo

[Prism]

My first thought on seeing it was actually Chara forgetting to submit since they were AWOL the last few days, but they definitely were around posting in FGO's postgame thread

[Prism]

I just remembered I have Things I Should Do the next ~4 days

I'm sure I'll procrastinate on those things at some point by showing up here but just a heads up that I'll be a lot more in the backseat atm. I probably need the timeout anyway but it sucks to have things like the Hectic case on Pooky that I need to be tackling seriously ASAP...but also knowing I shouldn't

My approach to the game is probably going to be to ignore Puppy entirely considering I already got got once, by the beeboy stuff. I'm not trying to out WIFOM the stupid puppy again

Spoiler: that motherfucker witnessing my pitiful attempts to gamesolve

[Prism]

I get that it feels dismissive/shitty to have it directed at you and your thoughts-most of the humor in the game has been directed at the self-but making a meme is super fitting for the tone of the game and even if Tanner is somehow scum I think you're taking it the wrong way.

Between Hectic roleplaying, me shitposting/selfroasting, and Pooky/Chara occasionally tagging on, this game has had a lot of seriousness broken up by more light-hearted points of levity.

For my part I'm content to assume Tanner is town because we instantly lose the game yesterday if he's scum. He moves his vote around and doesn't bring up the deadline rule and the game is likely over-much higher EV than whatever scum actually has. He was also the first one to figure out that the no kill gave an extra misfight.

At this point as scum he's going for a style-points slowroll over just winning the game.

[Prism]

There's a chance Lavender still votes yesterday without my allcaps panic, and a chance Chara+you come back in, but 2 out of 3 would be required for town to dodge autoloss yesterday from scum-Tanner POV. The benefit from just not pointing it out is much, much lower than waiting and letting the free win dice roll happen with zero penalty for losing.

Morning hadn't even voted yet, either, and if she leaves without doing so chances are she doesn't make deadline.

[Prism]

benefit from pointing it out is lower than just not doing so and waiting, I mean

[Prism]

HURT: lavender

i probably wont be on until deadline, but i

proxy my vote over to prism as needed

.

[Prism]

That was Lavender's second ever post between like, 4a-1p CST by the way. Not just this game. They again had not voted for literally the

entire game

It is plausible a hammer could have happened. Not just letting it sit would be stupid to the point of throwing the game.

[Prism]

Arguably if that's really the case-that no one will wake up-you can safely point it out anyway but sounding the alarm for it is another step.

[Prism]

...Okay, and giving us an extra midfight for no reason? Is that supposed to be worrh getting two to him or something?

[Prism]

I guess I'm also talking around the crux of your push-which seems to be based (before 3180) a lot in how he's approaching you-and switching the topic to what I find town rather than what you find scum. I'll try and approach it more from your perspective/do a more thorough trace of the engagement when I'm at a computer.

[Prism]

Chara. I know it's been like, one day, but I'm really eager to get you back involved and active in the game and having fun. Is there any way I can help you get more engaged with the game/any thoughts you want to bounce off of me?

[Prism]

I also have to do a soft reset so no worries. My reads yesterday were a disaster lmao

[Prism]

Naw not really (#BIGSORRY), I've been mostly hipfiring in between doing other things, I feel too guilty if I sit down for an hour+ of deep focus instead of Doing The Things I Should Do Right Now.

I'll be finished midday Friday though and there's a good chance I tackle it way before that

[Prism]

I'm gonna have a long backlog RIP but I will get through it

[Prism]

yesterday I suspect him because he was not really present. He felt very "satsified" with the solve and dismissive almost of putting more time into the game. It felt very uncharacteristic of Hectic's play.

Can you elaborate on why this is scummy to you considering our situation yesterday and the knowledge that Hectic isn't Chara? Is this just because you don't expect Hectic to be this content as town given that situation?

[Prism]

I still feel like this is worth some justification as to like, where that dislike is coming from. It seems uncharacteristic to you, but there are some clear mitigating factors imo (Suji/redtea AFK, 74% chance of winning/4 fights to hit scum, several strong townreads)

[Prism]

I've been on my phone reading as I fail to sleep, at the risk of restarting the cycle completely anew

Chara is back to super town

I have thoughts on Hectic's Poorly case which I read like, 3 hours ago at this point, that I'll revisit later.

tl;dr I don't think I found it persuasive, but given that I expected Chara to top my list on reread (nope) my instinct is that Pooky is a top candidate regardless.

...When was the last time I did find anyone else's point but my own persuasive? Should reflect on that

Kind of confused as to how Krazy has me town given mech mistakes+Puppyflip revealing I was in 0 danger as scum but sure I'll take it. I guess taking the Krazy misfight earlier and leaving Taylor for later is the better call, rather than letting a slot I know can powertown via Scumsman get into the game, makes sense but ???

[Prism]

I mean that makes sense in that I was very intentionally targeting my posts in Scumsman at specific players, and in general trying to keep a much lower+neutral presence for multiple reasons (Exploit Alyssa's area of attention, let rest of town implode)

To be blunt though I am a scum specialist who constantly abuses their town meta and knowledge of other players' experiences with me.

That said, I also find the alignment completely intolerable, and I play to the level of the table. I completely abandoned Isis in Scumsman because the town was playing like absolute trash and my own arrogance told me it wasn't even worth playing. That's an awful attitude to have, but it was mine.

[Prism]

Part of the reason I almost replaced and siteflaked was I'd been telling myself it was only scum I found intolerable, but the evidence was instead pointing at me finding the entire game intolerable.

But since I kicked onto overdrive this hasn't been so bad. Maybe it's that I just can't stand anything less than 110%.

Either way I have more important things to think on atm

[Prism]

I wound up sleeping zero last night, and I do have something really important on Friday that takes a lot of prep. I'm sorry for being like, half here half not.

I do think it's important that I get my confidence back and get back on the saddle, though, so kiss befuzzled Weird Al goodbye.

For Hectic, I picked up on a similar "For the audience" bit with Pooky's 610 catboi push. I also didn't find that post very generous to catboi, either. I've mentioned it before but I hated his entire progression on catboi even if there was a small section of 610 I liked.

1006 I don't feel a Ele-fight was as set in stone as you think. Eleboy had 3 votes, one of which was Puppy. Plenty of places to throw around weight between Tayl0r, Hectic, Lavender, or other.

The push on you (Hectic) I'm pretty torn because I think it's plausible either way. I buy Pooky-town being conflicted on you, but you might be onto something with the dual "Scared of fighting town me but later does it anyway" bit. The unvote around Tayl0r, citing Tweet sowing uncertainty, is a bit weird and the alternate vote atm was actually Lavender.

I do think Pooky as scum here is plausible given that none of Tayl0r/Lavender/Krazy are likely to be scum, ie. Pooky had nothing to lose by playing it slow and patient (similar to me!) but a vote there will take a complete reread of the slot

[Prism]

Me engaging more with the Hectic-side than the Pooky-side is also probably annoying for Pooky so I'll circle back around, but my instinct is that Hectic is pretty town between the two flips...and as I said yesterday, as much as I hate how he's played this game, his progressions have been good.

...Granted, Puppy's were also exceptional and is exactly what got me here in the first place. Maybe I need to take a different approach entirely. But neither tone nor progressions really work, I do wonder what's left?

[Prism]

...Why? We've both put in way, way too much of our souls to be fine with anyone else winning. Everyone has played super well, but to say I would find a loss bitter is an understatement.

[Prism]

With how much time, effort, and energy you've put into this game you're really fine getting fought here?

[Prism]

i'm taking sick day number 2: migraine edition. much love to the thread, yadda yadda.
uh... prod dodge content. uhhh. i guess Pooky v. Hectic is fine. it's fine. i townread everyone else that i... remember. besides Krazy, yes.

pls feel better soon

[Prism]

I'm starting to doubt this whole "soul masons" business

[Prism]

This game has all sorts of weird pairings come to think of it

Me/Chara as doomed lovers, my trust issues fated to turn Chara cold and distant, its only coping mechanism as admiration turns to disillusionment
Pooky/Hectic, soul masons gone wrong
Tanner/Lavender, the nonbeliever turned prophet of the god/goddess

catboi doesn't get anybody he's a huge loser who died alone

[Prism]

It's kind of hard for me to see if I addressed each part of Hectic's case against me adequately so if a neutral observer could let me know if something is lacking I can address your concerns.

I'd like to avoid repeating too much into the thread.

i'm just coming around to thinking Pooky is town after all and then he makes posts like this that make me squirm.

This interests me a bit.

Earlier in the game this time of language seemed to be +town to you. I'm referring here to 1335, which comments on the intro of 610. Do you think the language/style is different, that one is contextually good the other bad, that your own reaction has changed over time, or maybe something else?

[Prism]

Also, do you mind why explaining Tweet being town to you? Is it primarily for the vote, or is there something else about their play that is meaning you aren't as nervous around the slot as Pooky/Hectic?

[Prism]

Somewhere, my English teachers from childhood are weeping at my grammatical failures.

[Prism]

...Welcome back, by the way.

[Prism]

? Pretty sure Puppy was fucking a lot more with me at the EOD, he had like one post to Tanner

and whatever plan they have is much worse than "Tanner just votes somewhere else and town loses" but maybe I'm wrong and what a bad plan that would have been

also did you ever answer why Tanner gives us a free misfight and immediately points it out, again is that supposed to net him two misfights or what? Sorry if you have and I missed it

[Prism]

It's kind of weird to talk to someone about their case on you without any feedback from the audience. I'd rather not drown the thread in Hectic-vs-Pooky and nobody feels like playing the game.

bear-y sorry buddy, I finish up with my stuff tomorrow though so I should be *~back in business~*




unless I blow it then maybe I'll be too depressed but HOPEFULLY NOT

[Prism]

But given that I simply have no baseline for scum motivation there I kinda just want to call it a wash. I don't really give him towncred for pointing out something that gives me no actual information about who the scum is.

I feel like the standard here-"Actual information about who scum is"-is a bit too high. Negative deductions are really powerful things. He's given you very valuable information: More than anyone else, he understood that no killing is a free misfight. This gives you information about who it is

probably not

, unless again he decided that he could get two+ misfights off of this point.

Again, it's hard not to admit that a lot of my issue with his slot is pure omgus. I feel like anyone who has played with me as scum knows that

I loathe playing scum and would never, ever prolong a game,

so him still pushing me despite that makes me feel like he could have *a non-town agenda* somehow in doing so, but he could simply be lost and biting at his reads from earlier in the game.

Still I'm bullheaded enough to keep calling him scum even if I don't really get why he's playing the way he is if he is scum

I don't like that you're treating this as though the game were already lost if you were scum. Puppy was in a great position and you had a locktown slot whiteknighting you. Your odds aren't great but there's a clear path to winning. Are you suggesting you would replace in only to instantly concede?

[Prism]

i think i mentioned this when you talked about Pooky's catboi case the first time. i disagreed with your take that it was... i forget the wording but something like aggressive or unfair, because Pooky seemed to be taking a tonal approach that lacked teeth, even if the case itself was lengthy. but i think we were looking at different things, there, and now i'm more inclined to think that toothlessness could be an indicator for scum-Pooky too.

The difference there seemed to be that you found Pooky's post charitable to catboi. Whether that was just for the opening or the post as a whole, I'm not sure. For my part, I found that the opening was verbally/performatively charitable but the case was not at all-the case always assumed the worst, at times extremely so. This mismatch made the opener sound performative to me.

For my part, I'm beginning to think it's very playstyle-centered and not that inherently indicative of Pookyscum/town. I suspect the mismatch might be more indicative, though.

[Prism]

So I don't see how he can conclude that I am going after him for suspecting me when the actual timeline of events of D2 were that he concluded that I was "an innocent child" and I was the one who was pushing on him.

I think it's clear, with the further posts given by Hectic, that you had reasons to be town but weren't locked in as such. Skimming his ISO this is also clear in posts like 1601. 1868 clearly speculates you as non-Chara scum. These are all well before 2334, the post you first cite here and elsewhere that I can see.

If I'm scum why would I initiate a push on Hectic who is very hard to remove when he's already town slotting me? It's not like we didn't have a number of easier pushes at the time.

I feel like this question answers itself. You clearly have a lot of faith-or a lot of fear-of Hectic's ability to scumhunt. While a nightkill is one low-risk way to remove him, a push is a valid but slightly riskier one. In a game in which you need to get 4 townfights, though, you need to take risks, and you might even feel

obligated

to suspect him lest your lack of it in itself be suspicious.

I concur with Hectic's 3237, in that I also found your push on Ele strangely strong at the time it happened. I also agree with Morning's 3255, in that Hectic actually opened the day going through a variety of scumreads-me and Tanner, for example-but perhaps his progression on Puppy specifically does need a closer look.

The rest of the posts here all seem to be focusing again on the timeline, which I've addressed here. I think Hectic's progression on you lines up pretty well, regardless of whether or not you're actually an opportunistic scum.

[Prism]

I'm not really sure what my PoE is at this point.

I have Chara/Krazy/Tanner town. I really don't want to revisit either of these. If I revisit Chara at all it's just going to be to explain why I think they're town. I refuse to read this ISO and drive myself insane again before ExLo. I really have a lot of confidence in my redtea read, too, and I have zero clue how to read Krazy. His reads this game (Tanner tunnel) are kind of bonkers but I'm going to trust my redtea read. If Tanner is scum I'm not even going to clap for him, I'm going to be angry that he played to extend the game for zero reason instead of just winning.

I have Hectic/Morning as probably town. I still hate Hectic's Day 1, and hate how backwards he's worked at points (Suji-flake meta to justify the Suji tunnel). His progression on me is still trash. But I don't think he plays that Day 2 like that-so set on redtea, so unwilling on others, and mostly disinterested-given that he/his partner weren't actually in danger at all. He can afford to play patient. Morning is Morning. I wish I remembered why this slot was town. Always good+believable reads. Yeah. That's about it.

That leaves Lavender/Pooky. Between the two...I think it would be Pooky. Lavender has a chance but I have still felt votes have made this slot town all game long and, even if as scum they might not have realized they shouldn't have showed up at the last second...I think the fact that they showed up is town. The fact that Puppy instantly started talking again after going AWOL the previous hour suggests that Puppy saw the day was getting hammered.

Okay, working through this wasn't as bad as I thought. As it stands I want Pooky.

What should my projects be? I think rereading Pooky and establishing that he isn't obvtown should be #1. I think confirming Hectic as town should be #2. I think Morning/Lavender rereads should be #3. Am I missing anything? With respect to Krazy/Tanner...Sorry but that's at the bottom for me.

[Prism]

Just wondering, Pooky-were you awake/checking the thread at all when the hammer shenanigans went down yesterday?

[Prism]

Also WRT Krazy I am pretty sure during Scumsman I thought to myself at multiple points "What is this dude on?" so his read on Tanner being bonkers FMPOV sounds a small alarm bell but not big enough to make me seriously doubt the read.

[Prism]

Prism, why weren't you able to use Tayl0r's proxy to get her to self-vote? Or is that banned because it's cruel?

I assumed proxies weren't legal. I would probably have asked pops if it came really close just to doublecheck but I assumed that you can't do that.

It would be incredibly, incredibly stupid if it were legal.

[Prism]

I definitely haven't seen it and whatever mods put it into their ruleset need to be publicly shamed because it begs to be mechanically abused, eg. if you have a clear nightresult on me proxy your vote to me immediately

[Prism]

I feel like if I open my mouth I'll go into the wrong direction again QWQ

I've run my mouth all game, and been wrong basically all game. Yet somehow, as a whole, we're much better off for my having done so, and catboi having done so, and Tanner having done so, so on.

We're all super wrong in mafia, all the time. But there are two key parts: A) It's OK to be wrong B) Even being wrong gives information to work with

If you don't open your mouth, you're not playing mafia. You're spectating. Playing the game means risking looking/feeling stupid, and that's okay. We've all been wrong, we all know that there's a good chance we're wrong even as we say something with conviction, and learning to live with that is the key to being a good player.

[Prism]

Like Lavender, to put it into context, I spent at least 30 hours reading/rereading the game Day 2. I could easily see having actually done somewhere closer to 70. That's like a fulltime job.

I had the Chara as my top townread, fought a town, and completely missed a rule that almost put us into autoloss just because I didn't make my decision until like 12 hours before deadline.

Was it emotionally devastating? Absolutely. But I also know to laugh at myself, and I know to pick myself back up and try again.

[Prism]

I forgot I had this post sitting in a tab from awhile back.

the vote strengthened what was already a strong townread.
this sounds a little silly to explain, but a slot that's been very towny to me and has not fostered any suspicion on either how they're posting or what they're pushing, for the entire game, is almost always just town.

I wish I could say my reason was very different. It's not. I do want to revisit the slot at some point but there are so many others to look for that Morning just keeps getting thrown into the "probably town who cares" bucket.

That said...if you think of something, let me know. It'd be nice to solidify this.

[Prism]

...How many alcoholics is this game going to make?

Pooky seems to be well down the rabbithole already, Tanner is getting there, I eyed the bottle with great temptation after the Puppy flip, and if scum is Chara/Tanner/Krazy I'm 100% going on a two week bender and Hectic is probably going to find me passed out under a bridge downtown

[Prism]

Hm, can you elaborate on why you're worried about Tanner? It's not really a big deal to sanitycheck yourself.

[Prism]

ie. what instinctively points you toward him? I know that you work a lot off of current feeling/intuition, no need to go digging through the archives unless you want to for some reason

[Prism]

ie. what instinctively points you toward him? I know that you work a lot off of current feeling/intuition, no need to go digging through the archives unless you want to for some reason

what the hell you're so sweet and understanding this is why i fell for you

...Do you hear that?

I think we just made Tanner grab another beer

[Prism]

i find myself wondering if Tanner's Puppy push was TMI, and that rather than Puppy trying to set up a partner by distancing, knowing he was leaving the game, Tanner was the one doing the ballsy distance strat on day 2, and this time it worked out.

FWIW I think Krazy is having similar thoughts, with the addition of him being skeptical of how Tanner approaches Krazy himself. I'll leave it to Krazy to fill in the gaps, though.

For my part I'm less willing to play the stupid Puppy WIFOM game after how hard he got me Day 1, I'm more trying to read people individually at this point though sometimes I can't help some gut feelings arising (gut does say not Puppy/Hectic, gut does say Lavender wasn't partnered with anyone even though I haven't gone back to look at Puppy/Lav)

[Prism]

also I want to note that it was finding this post that marked the end of all sanity, thanks

[Prism]

Tanner-I'm looking through and trying to sort your PoE.

It looks like the #1 candidate in your mind is Krazy. Maybe I should review that but...I really don't want to tbh, if you have a consolidated case for it I might take a look but that's about it.

You seem to think Tweet/Lav are town for the votes, and I remember you saying "there will be tears" or the like if I'm scum. IDK where you're at on Chara but you seem to have thought, but are waffling, on Pooky/Hectic being town.

Is your current thought something like Krazyscum with Chara, Pooky, and Hectic as the backup picks in approximately that order?

[Prism]

w/e sit in the stupid town bucket until exlo and stay there

(to chara)

[Prism]

sheeping my read on chara thinking i can read them myself

oh you sweet summer child

[Prism]

Hm, okay, I think a lot of the teams make some level of sense to me even if I ~think~ they're unlikely, can you maybe trace one line each for why?

For me I just have as plausible partners of Puppy:

Chara as town period (though imo their side of Puppy interactions were v. good)
Hectic as probably town (Reads, Day 2 playstyle, gut not Puppy-pairing but LOGICALLY NO MORE PUPPY WIFOM)
Lavender...I think Puppy's reaction end of Day 1 is telling (oh god I am doing Puppy WIFOM) but also probtown for vote alone
Tweet...Dunno, would have to look
Pooky, I don't have any ~for~ but I don't see too much against? Pooky/Puppy can both play that day super slow, not in danger at all

p-edit: this is my relationship/read on chara. why do you think they don't want to put you through the kind of stress from paranoid waffling they're describing? BECAUSE I'VE DONE IT TO THEM AND THEY REFUSE TO PUT OTHERS THROUGH IT

p-edit2: lmao @ me even being alive in exlo, i swear to god if i'm alive in exlo i am going to glitterbomb scum via the postal service, i want my life back this game has consumed it

[Prism]

I will literally not understand in a million years why I'm a consensus townread and it bothers the hell out of me but I've got to learn to live with it

[Prism]

Catboi kill after he voices suspicion based off of a 10 year friendship? Check
Protected the Chara Day 2? Check
Playing like the game is on the line Day 2? Check
Playing like they know it's going the distance despite overwhelmingly great odds? Check
Didn't think no kill was a misfight? Check

Conclusion: LOCK TOWN

[Prism]

pooky wyd

what if not hectic either

[Prism]

Hectic also referenced something moderately mindmeldy iirc and I wanted to scream

Hectic and I had an opposite take on that section of Pooky/Ele by the way, third paragraph of this post. It's just a bit ironic if Pooky actually got Tanner to vote Ele with it.

[Prism]

bruh idfk prism is smarter than me.

bruh

what

you have literally corrected me on the ruleset at least 4 times now LMAO

[Prism]

we're all just a big pile of dumbasses locked in a 170 page forum thread together

[Prism]

chara is just super annoying to try and read for alignment because they absolutely excel at tone and reacting genuinely/emotionally to things in the moment as scum

simultaneously this game the biggest reasons they're town are for reacting to things in the heat of the moment, eg. one clear example is that the hectic frenzy vote over following me on taylor looks much better in hindsight

they also love to ingratiate themselves with people through several different means, from overt flirtation/friendliness to more subtle alignment of thought

this is why i need HELP and WHY I HAVE TRUST ISSUES

[Prism]

"170 pages"

it's 137

my point is made

[Prism]

What about that post cleared it for you, Chara?

[Prism]

Pooky reminds me of Menagerie a littl bit

Granted, he got screwed in that game. But essentially, he was scum inside of a gladiate with Isis. He had to push her in order to stay alive. Instead, he did the WIFOMy "We're both town, this is tragic, oh no which one of us should live?" sort of angle.

Isis got enough heat from ppl where she like 10% considered voting herself at one point. pooky ultimately died but everyone in the thread was convinced he was town

i guess what reminds me of that is how Pooky is suggesting we eliminate him repeatedly in this game. It seeeems like a losing play -- just like the no kill does. But maybe doing something ridiculous is all scum has at this point, idk

Seriously, who here would even think about no killing?

Other than Lavender who probably forgot to submit

I mean I totally see this type of WIFOM happening as scum, it's pretty run of the mill imo

When I reread I'm going to try to focus later on more tracking progressions/guessing at how legitimate the reads themselves are.

FWIW I think even Lavender kills here. They knew night had come since they hammered, and as scum they're probably really stressed/scared over being left solo. Maybe they're so stressed they panic and pick no one because they can't decide but like...there are some clear candidates that are all decent.

[Prism]

I'M SORRY I HAVE AN INDESCRIBABLE NEED TO BE LIKED

Spoiler: Tanner don't click I warned you

ie. what instinctively points you toward him? I know that you work a lot off of current feeling/intuition, no need to go digging through the archives unless you want to for some reason

what the hell you're so sweet and understanding this is why i fell for you

To be honest what I'm describing here is exactly why I'm always eager to hear your thoughts/why your presence as a player was so missed

Your approach and ways of thinking are so different from mine but are somehow absolutely brilliant in their own way?

Like at the risk of being borderline offensive I find your attention/working memory issues completely enthralling, absolutely positive, rather than a drawback or a negative

...Okay, well, that's enough of that for now.

I'll try and be back a bit later, my *~mystery task~* got pushed back 6/7 hours so I'm still stressing over that

[Prism]

My working assumption MT is that it was a legitimate miscalc-where scum just saw it was even and assumed it was optimal-or that someone forgot (and that person would be Chara, who was very AWOL and disinterested at the EOD...but even then it posted in FGO postgame overnight)

[Prism]

I think the miscalc option is plausible for basically everyone but Tanner, Hectic also might take a bit more care to it but he's noticeably...not been on his game mechanically, which is partially why I hated his Day 1 so much.

Someone said Krazy doesn't make that mistake either but idk and I think the slot is town anyway

[Prism]

half game content, half PDA to make all the other

kids in the high school cafeteria line

players slightly uncomfortable

our posts today were perfect

[Prism]

god i can't wait til we're divorced and i steal the really good lamp

[Prism]

I'm basically onboard with Morning's plan, but I do really want to reread Pooky first.

My nerves are pretty shot for the day though, I neither Killed It nor Failed It, and am instead in an Unfortunate Unknown Medium, and I need to take time and relax and not do something that's going to stress me out.

[Prism]

i kind of glazed over it the first time but yeah, i don't understand what you're arguing in the quoted portion. why would it be towny if you gave up your puppy push? it wouldn't be. why would it be scummy if you stayed tunneled on... scum that would win us the game if he were eliminated?

I think what he's getting at that is that in another world where he sticks to his guns, he'd wind up being scumread for distancing.

Krazy posed the following ideas for sorting between a Day 2 distance and a Day 2 townpush on scum:

A) If X starts the day pushing Y-scum, but later backs off: X is scummy (D2 distance)
B) If X starts the day pushing Y-scum, and sticks to it and tries to build a wagon: X is towny (D2 legit push)

Krazy says Tanner fits into A.

Tanner is responding by proposing a new principle, which one might use to justify Tanner-scum iin a world in which he stuck to the Puppy push. This principle is:

1) In light of realizing a fight is a deadend (ie. will not happen), it is towny to look elsewhere for other appealing options.
(Conversely, it is scummy not to)

Applying 1) to Tanner's actual dayplay, we have:

A) If Tanner starts the day pushing Puppy-scum, but backs off when he realizes it is not viable and looks for somewhere people might agree: Tanner is towny (Day 2 legit push)
B) If Tanner starts the day pushing Puppy-scum, but continues even when he realizes it is not viable and does not look elsewhere: Tanner is scummy (Day 2 distancing)

The point being, here he's scummy for backing off when it wasn't happening. But someone might scumread him had he stuck to it, because it blatantly wasn't happening. Damned if he did, damned if he didn't.

[Prism]

There are all sorts of other gaps/possibilities here than the ones described, but I hope that helps clear up the points each is making at least.

[Prism]

It looks like you might reject that principle entirely, or think that Tanner didn't fit that mold (which requires

only

backing off when Puppywagon isn't viable-1. was it really not viable? 2. if it was, did he back off before it was known to be not viable?)

[Prism]

I'm express horror at the fact that a Chara-scum thinks they have to hit on/emotionally seduce me for 140 pages to win the game

I express horror at the idea someone might feel obligated to do this to win the game, but a bit of pride that it hasn't really worked for the most part

I will respect the dedication but also I hope you realize by now this definitely did NOT help your case and that you DIDN'T need to do this

[Prism]

Yeah let's curb the PDA until postgame

I do not want the thought of someone feeling like they have to jokingly hit on/romance me in order to win the game on my conscience

P-Edit: alright alright, hit me with your best one liner

[Prism]

This game is wack.

We have Therapy Sessions with Dr. Pooky

We have Tanner doing his best Ted Stryker impression (drinking problem)

We have Chara and Prism PDAing more than two theater kids

We have Lavender, who now has a cult built around them despite being a spectator

We had some dude pretending to be a puppy

We had another dude who was way too old to pretend to be a cat/weeb but does it anyway

And then we have Hectic and Krazy stuck in here with us

[Prism]

Well you're one of the most articulate, dedicated players left on this site and that avatar is super hot

I don't think that's a cheesy enough one-liner to be humorous but it is the truth

her music is better tbh, I picked her mainly because I liked how classic-cool she was in sunglasses

your sunglasses might be even better though tbh

and thank u, if we lose this game i can print out a "most effort" award and hang it on my wall proudly.

...that's more valuable than any win? right?? right???

[Prism]

all of this and yet you're too fearful to confront the truth, that this has nothing to do with the game, and that i would never compromise my integrity to even think of making half of these posts directed to you if i was scum here.

the

full

truth, that i've been nothing but sincere this whole time. that's where you should derive your horror.

S T O P

...until postgame

[Prism]

At this point we might as well just stop playing mafia and instead turn into a misfits emotional support group

[Prism]

VOTE: End the game, everyone wins, leave the thread unlocked indefinitely as our new private clubhouse

[Prism]

VOTE: End the game, everyone wins except catboi, leave the thread unlocked indefinitely as our new private clubhouse

[Prism]

Prism is busy looking for a way to kill me without looking too bad because he might be the last bad guy.

respectfully exactly i wouldn't even do any leadin, i would just save it for the reread and do it all at once, it comes off more natural that way

[Prism]

i meant another word other than exactly but i can't remember what it was rip

I went thru that hell yesterday with him and considered him locktown and I don't understand why he'd go through that hell with me and think I'm more scummy than Hectic.

I mean here it's more that my reads yesterday were wrong and everyone else seems to be town by default, your play yesterday was exceptional as scum but there's room for the patience/playing it slow that made it so strong

i think the term i used for you before was IN CASE OF EMERGENCY BREAK GLASS, in that scum turned out to (probably) not be in the lurkers at all meaning whoever is left was in 0 danger of autoloss that day. suddenly stalling out w/ me isn't risky at all-and like i said before, i'm surprised people aren't taking the same lens to me (totally safe for me-scum to play it slow, too, just like for pooky-scum)

[Prism]

I think you have a pretty good idea of my alignment, you re-read extensively yesterday and you were here with me for every post of D2 so I'm not sure what the point of yet another re-read would be except to pretend you are re-thinking your position when you are not.

You seem to apply this to my read on you. Do you think this is true of Chara/Hectic, both of whom I've read probably 2-3x more than you?

[Prism]

(I ask that because despite me reading them each 2-3x more, I still have waffled quite a lot on those slots)

[Prism]

Sure. You seem to think that given how much I've read your slot, it's unlikely that I would really change my mind or have much additional info to glean from another reread. Therefore, you seem to think my intent isn't really to reread you but to give me an excuse to pivot.

I'm introducing two facts: A) I've waffled frequently on Chara/Hectic B) I've probably read each of their slots 4-6 times each, whereas with yours I've probably read it once or twice.

This can be interpreted in several ways. One might be to strengthen your point-I'm waffling but I've read those slots so many times, why on earth do I change my mind constantly when I already read that stuff 3x?-or you might interpret it to mean that I legitimately

do

have different takeaways each time.

[Prism]

I think there's a difference between re-reading because curious and re-reading to become comfortable with a decision you've already made and your tone feels like the later.

This is pretty fair but like...I also haven't reread yet. Maybe you feel the need to preemptively defend

in case

I scumpush, which is okay.

I would definitely say that my decision is likely, though, in that you seem to be scum by PoE, and it's worth taking a look to make sure I'm not missing obvtown (ie. PoE blatantly wrong). That's more what I'm wanting to sanitycheck, rather than that I'm hoping to nail down a solid scumcase on you.

It seems like you thought Hectic before and are now considering me, but I've been ahead of the game here in that I traced exactly what my issues were with your Hectic push-I can't remember if you responded to my rebuttal or not, I'll look myself but if you have the link that'd be cool-and have seriously engaged with the read and your reaction by asking who it is if

not

you or Hectic.

[Prism]

don't believe it's reasonable or rational for you to spend this much time on a game that's nearly completely won yet be willing to take a backseat on decisions.

Two things:

1) I noticeably didn't want to be in the town dictator position yesterday

despite

having no reason to doubt my reads this game.
2) I am not taking a backseat and explicitly have said I wanted to get back in the saddle, ditched Weird Al, and once again critically engaged with/traced the argument between you/Hectic even as I've struggled with RL stuff today. I've also engaged with plenty of other things on Krazy/Tanner/Chara.

The "backseat" comment seems to come from me concurring with Morning's plan, but taking the wheel doesn't mean coming up with an entirely original idea. I clearly laid out what I want to do before I'm comfortable going with the deciision
3) If I didn't want to be the town dictator before (see 1), I surely don't want to be it now

P-Edit: Sure, I've encouraged that basically all game.

[Prism]

Another note is that you seem to think that my effort/obsession is something I place a lot of faith in. It is the opposite-my relentless obsession has been my ruin, and the fact that it was Day 2 is unfortunately a Prism special.

There are games of mine that others admire that for me are deeply painful memories. Dystopia! is considered one of my strongest town performances by third parties, but to me it is my greatest shame. I brought the energy, the fire, the passion, the

drive

, but I discovered the hard way the simple, painful truth of being town: I cannot win alone. My obsession is a powerful thing, but it's also isolating and drowns out the voices of others. This theme-that I must serve as a driving force while not letting my obsession overwhelm me-was a repeated theme throughout Undertale S Open

[Prism]

I shot. I missed.

I'll shoot again, but I'm not the Lone Ranger. I am not alone. I've never won a game alone, and I doubt this one will be any exception.

And if I want the same shot as Morning, that's not giving up my agency at all.

[Prism]

I would sell my soul for it, if only selling my soul were enough.

And I agree that there is a good chance it won't be that easy.

Being suspicious of me pivoting to you is fine, but acting like I'm throwing in the towel and giving up my own agency because I agree with Morning is completely wrong.

[Prism]

Chill.

Did you ever tackle my post tracing you/Hectic, btw? Sorry if you did and I'm forgetting/missed it entirely.

I feel like you also changed the topic entirely on 3512, but admittedly the question was a bit WIFOM-y.

[Prism]

You'll probably get the reread tomorrow, by the way. I get that might be a bit frustrating given that I'm A) Actively responding to things right now B) Just said something along the lines of "Well if you wait I might not even pivot to you"

That said, the time/level of focus I take to reading deeply/tracing progressions differs a lot from responding in the moment and I've done enough today that I'm not eager to sink that 2+ hours in right now.

[Prism]

3347 is the post I'm referring to about you/Hectic, btw

[Prism]

Rereading that snippet, my thoughts weren't quite Hectic's. Hectic is focusing specifically on the disconnect between the "Ele giving up" and "Ele=Chara" claims.

For my own end, I thought specifically Chara was a bit strange, but I've noticed others are typically a lot more confident in calling people PRs/specific roles whereas I try and stick to alignments (...I didn't really follow this Day 2, though, and it probably bit me). I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt at that point, and am still pretty inclined to.

I didn't think there was much to really point to either way for Ele-scum (Chara vs. non-Chara). I just felt the push was weirdly strong and specific (I remember language like "comical" stuck out to me)

[Prism]

Like my thought on reading this phrase:

Like it's just comical his progression on me and it feels like a Chara that just gave up lol.

Was that it was a little bit strong and more specific than I personally agreed with. The former was a minor ping but nothing major, esp with his flip. The latter happens all the time and I don't put a lot of stock in it. (I don't like to go for PR reads unless I feel forced to, for example. The only example that springs to my mind on MS where I tried I'm pretty sure I hit VT lmao)

P-Edit: I mean, I think it was definitely underexplained at a minimum and agree that "comical" is a good descriptor given his flip. My point was just that it's a very strongly negative word, and I definitely noticed that both in hindsight and I'm pretty sure at the time I first saw it.

That doesn't mean you're scum for it: My point in 3347 was more that Hectic's points+progression on you seem plausible

[Prism]

I'd have to look back, but I don't think this is a fair question.

When I speak as to who scum is overall, I'm being comparative. In a vacuum, I'd probably say no, it's not very plausible. When given information that other people are likely town for implausible-scum reasons of their own, suddenly I'm forced to weigh them against each other, and their chance goes up.

When everyone is playing extremely well and has a lot of plausible reasons for why they're town, the bar gets very high. I think it's fair to say that whoever is scum this game has played exceptionally well, with (no offense) the exceptions of Lavender or maybe Krazy.

At this point I'm really talking around the issue though, rather than reading and giving you a direct, straight shot of an answer as to what I think you are based off those interactions.

[Prism]

I haven't read his progression on Puppy, and it's part of project #2 (Reread Hectic)

At this point we're about hitting my limit unless you want me to start hipfiring off of bad memory. I don't remember a lot about Hectic being on Puppy earlier Day 2, but I do remember seeing him crop up later in Day 2 and being a bit confused by/interested in it. This is exactly why I think it's worth a better look.

[Prism]

My point with that statement btw was that Hectic really did work his way around several slots, checking into me/Tanner for sure, before settling on Suji. If he feels good about those other slots he started with, combined with a few reads from Day 1, I think it's pretty reasonable for him to take the approach he did Day 2 about just wanting to flip Suji and call it a day.

Simultaneously, if he is scum I think your point about checking into the Puppy progression specifically is a promising place to look.

[Prism]

I think it's fair to say that whoever is scum this game has played exceptionally well, with (no offense) the exceptions of Lavender or maybe Krazy.

to be clear to Lav and Krazy: This is in no way a judgment of your towngames, only scumLav or scumKrazy.

[Prism]

Yeah, sorry that I can't do more atm. I figured hipfiring where I was at atm, despite my little faith in it, might be marginally more helpful than "idk until i reread lmao" even if it's probably equally useless.

I think this is a good place to call it for me. I've made a lot of noise and talking around posts the last page or two with you but it's clear I need to do the substantive homework I set out for myself.

[Prism]

Man I really wanted to wait to swing by until later but I can't resist the chance to

mess with

hang out with drunk Chara

[Prism]

I'm probably just going to start off by rereading Day 1 entirely, it's not that long

[Prism]

epicmafia

please never use this word in mine or catboi's presence again, those are dark days

you have your skeletons i have mine

[Prism]

me/catboi live to see the other suffer

if we succeed, great, but the other failing is what is truly more important.

the personal success is the icing on the cake of the other failing, rather than the reverse.

[Prism]

like literally the progression between us this game was hilarious and stereotypical, we had parallel reads that were both completely unjustified ass, each called the other out for them with the same language, and then cat took personal offense when I did it to him and we started slapfighting

Spoiler: catboi/Prism exchange in a nutshell

Prism: I think catboi is town for [vague bullshit for what is obviously gut]
catboi: "This read on me doesn't make a lot of sense. (*´ω｀*)"
Prism: Well [more vague bullshit to justify what is obviously gut]
catboi: Fair enough I guess

catboi: I think Prism is town for [vague bullshit for what is obviously gut]
Prism: "Cat read makes no sense past the "gut" point"
catboi: WELL MAYBE I JUST SHOULDN'T EVEN TRY AT ALL THEN IF YOU'RE JUST GONNA SHOOT ME DOWN
Prism: bruh chill it's not that big of a deal
catboi: THEY'RE SETTING ME UP MAN
Prism: OH DOES BABY WANT HIS BOTTLE WAH

Like I get to make fun of him here but what made this so hilarious is that we ABSOLUTELY could have swapped places

[Prism]

Oh my god these first 4/5 pages alone and the three way interactions between Chara/Elements/Puppy make me want to instavote Chara

I told myself this was DONE. I said I WOULDN'T DO THIS

send help

[Prism]

So I'm talking specifically about pages 6/7, not 4/5 actually. The goal here wouldn't have been to fight Elements, the goal here would have been to just interact early and often to distance.

This is the sequence I'm referring to, especially posts 152, 155, 160, and 161:

Spoiler: Page 7 progression

damn. how can scum compete with this?

chara, what do you think of pooky? tanner? i played a game once with tanner where iw as technically scum, so i kind of think he sounds like that game, but i think my light tr is also half wanting him to be town so we can play town together as an apology. pooky just gives off good vibes. idk, it's kind of early still in day to have any good reads, but i'm bored with setup spec and i want to talk about something else

the most significant towntell from Pooky so far would be that he apparently did math for this.

i'll look at Tanner in a moment.
i scumread Elements. what do you think about them?

townhunting is powerful, better than scumhunting imo, but we can townhunt inside the fight framework too.

oh, you're my favourite.

listen. Hectic, Prism, and i played the previous version of this game. Hectic was spared early so he didn't suffer with us. i was scum, so i was suffering for an entirely different reason, but our scumteam was literally leaning on the apathy and frustration that came midgame as town struggled with no elimination flips.

aw, thanks! hi chara, i'm puppy! if you do something cool maybe i'll townread you (do something cool do something cool do something cool)

damn. how can scum compete with this?

chara, what do you think of pooky? tanner? i played a game once with tanner where iw as technically scum, so i kind of think he sounds like that game, but i think my light tr is also half wanting him to be town so we can play town together as an apology. pooky just gives off good vibes. idk, it's kind of early still in day to have any good reads, but i'm bored with setup spec and i want to talk about something else

the most significant towntell from Pooky so far would be that he apparently did math for this.

i'll look at Tanner in a moment.
i scumread Elements. what do you think about them?

the most significant towntell from Pooky so far would be that he apparently did math for this.

i'll look at Tanner in a moment.
i scumread Elements. what do you think about them?

roode

i scumread Elements. what do you think about them?

nothing but if you make a scumcase i'll sheep it. why do you scumread him? i def don't agree w/ the pro-spare argument, i'm trying to decide if arguing it is inherently scummy (this is on my mind wrt hectic too.) it's probably too extreme to just assume it has to be bad faith right?

alternatively, elements could do something really awesome and we could realign into the cute animal avatar townblock alliance supreme

Tanner's above null for now. i don't want to put a lot of weight in where he falls on the spare/fight debate. i have concrete thoughts on this but i want Tanner back in the thread first, so you can ask me again after that happens.

catboi also gets that sweet and soft earlygame TR for the Puppy vote (that i disagree with) and for the setup math (that is really very NAI).
so what i mean is catboi gets the earlygame TR for no real reason besides i say so.

one of them should be pooky
one of them should be me
one of them should be hectic

this is a game
it's meant to be fun
sparing is the more fun path
we should spare

first quoted post is what pinged. i mentioned i thought it was likely a joke but the lackadaisical attitude is what's rubbing me the wrong way. there's a desire to spare but no

determination

to find that town to spare, yet.

ok, that's actually a really good point

HURT: elements

[Prism]

I messed up the sequencing a bit-151/152 are doubleposted-but it should still be readable.

[Prism]

I kind of procrastinated and need to eat but w/e I'll keep going in a bit

[Prism]

Okay reading on my phone while I ate, up through page like 15

I'm pretty sure this game just ended if we vote Chara lmao. I have two/three points I've always been skeptical of but I'm about ready to hard call bullshit.

The scum theater I quoted above is so bad that it's hilarious given how strong individually Chara/Puppy played, that sequence was about as convincing as an elementary school play.

[Prism]

If you're town, I deserve that and the negative comments, it's fine.

Do I enjoy putting you through the emotional wringer? No. Do I have an obligation to read and give my opinion on what's in front of me, without pausing to think how foolish/stupid/bad I'll feel if I'm wrong? Yes.

I will gladly accept responsibility for being wrong and for annoying you with my paranoia/waffling. My other comments about you are sincere, and have nothing to do with how well/terribly I've played this game. I'd rather keep them separate, and again revisit in the postgame.

[Prism]

I still have plenty of the day left to read, in any case.

[Prism]

Up through page 22 it is very, VERY clear, to me at least, that scum did not anticipate Elements getting flipped Day 1.

Spoiler: Posts

puppy:

39 actually kind of pinged me hard when he made it? Just this big pile of setup questions out in the open to start things off, that triggered my gut along with the early snap townread of Tanner in 48 for a post I didn't feel was particularly telling. Tone of 62 actually kind of funny/good, though? Light assessment. I don't really like 139 though. The comment of "good vibes" from pooky just is way weird and I don't care for him asserting he's town this way. Main suspicion just sheeping onto Chara's Elements vote in 155/161 besides that doesn't have much else. Response to Hectic's questioning in 213 reads a tad overdefensive? Really very buddy-buddy in 234. I definitely do not townread CLAP. In fact the ISO mostly recharged my early gut-level suspicion.

but i did read this! it's always fun to read gossip about yourself. fyi my elements vote is semi-serious now, it's more than sheeping chara (actually i think she made the point first and technically i voted first?) anyways, i think i have a decent reason for voting elements if you want to hear it (you want to hear it don't you squidward)

]
Sure, hit me.

Okay!

It started with Chara's observation in 160 that elements is talking about sparing, but isn't really looking for spares. Like, he still isn't, btw, he's just sort of moved on since everyone is over sparing. But where's the passion, does he look like he's trying to town hunt at all?

Ok that was old stuff but then there's my argument (?) With him around 196. He sort of decides that my asking about spares is scummy. Uh...? He doesn't posit why this is scummy, he just asserts that I'm "changing my tune" and after a respectable distance he parks his vote on me (and hasn't done anything with it?)

Maybe this is weak but it's only D1 and I'm fine with this read and would wagon him for it

FWIW Pooky I think your early game is more town with both flips even if it's still not great, Hectic was right about some of the pocketing/sparing garbage early.

I also think Hectic is town, too, even though I can't see it in these posts yet.

[Prism]

That or they were really betting on leveraging these early Puppy posts into a Puppyspare Day 2 which would be incredibly bizarre given how established genocide was by this point

[Prism]

sparing garbage early.

by ele

[Prism]

-puppy, and this one was less cute.

hectic can see the future

[Prism]

Hectic has really committed to Ele-push by 686. I think this slot is pretty town.....even though there are things I still hate.

Pooky's engagement with catboi still reads roughly, I knew that was coming but reading into it is so hard. 610 is still constantly assuming the worst-and is at times a bit deceptive (For example, while quoting catboi's 671 he cuts the actual criticism of catboi's out, which to be fair is snarky/dismissive rather than directly making cat's point, then acts like there's nothing there.) He also gets caught up in the weeds a bit too much in places like 684

Overall I think this slot is still town? Reading into the cat engagement gives me a headache though just because of how aggressive+predetermined the answers are on Pooky's end

[Prism]

By the EOD Day 2 I was also just pretty convinced that if Hectic was scum he was Chara given the spares, the buddying around Day 1, and the toothless spare vote on Morning. Now that he's confirmed not Chara, I'm left with not liking the objectivity of the initial Pooky post (V. natural as town though), the timing of the Ele-push (More suspect), the progression on me early Day 2 (still pretty trash imo), and working backwards from Suji-scum.

I dunno. Maybe this slot is still scum but at this point I think his method of getting reads this game has really, really just grated on me. His continued pushes on Elements rather than trying to setup elsewhere, and his interactions with Puppy, and his defenses of Tayl0r/Lav, both just point me to him probably being town. I'll still follow up on the Puppy progression by him, though.

[Prism]

Chara, a player very dependent on drawing support from their partners, getting a morale boost immediately on beeboy replace in and showing back up after disappearing for awhile+as catboi pointed out, giving IIoA in their previous thread forays. 727

Hm.

[Prism]

734 I've taken note of when reading through Chara's ISO.

I never realized this comes immediately after beeboy rep-in.

This game is over, I'm still reading but I'm voting. I'm pretty sure this is the end of the line.

HURT: Chara

[Prism]

All of Page 30/31 are Chara sorting redtea and pressing for more attention there. This is better than plausible as scum, it's absolutely brilliant. This is easily the best play as scum, and it's not even close.

It wants to drum up interest elsewhere to save Ele, but it also needs to avoid being tied too tightly to saving the other goon. (If they vote Hectic and Ele gets flipped, they're in a horrible position. If Hectic-Ele get consecutively flipped, they're also in a terrible position). redtea is a bad candidate in that me/cat are both currently townreading them, but a great candidate to avoid deeper scrutiny of motivations no matter who winds up flipping. Compare that to a direct LHF push like Lav/Taylor.

We'll see how its stance on LHF fights evolves as the stakes get higher.

[Prism]

765 on the same page have Puppy swapping to Hectic, fresh on the beeboy replace-in and the Chara push onto redtea.

I am now very sure that this game is over.