Mini 2230: Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night: Game Over

[Lukewarm]

Hello.

I am here, and I am sorry.

My first thought on the Titus flip was that I was going to cry my self to sleep that night. My second thought was that we probably should have let her full claim+ flavor claim before we hammered here

I have not read anything from this day phase, and probably won't be able to look at it super closely for the next couple days. I am actively trying to finish packing, and tomorrow I am moving, and then the following day unpacking. So... I should probably put myself in VLA.

There was one progression on Titus that stood out to me during the night phase, and I wanted to bring it up. Here is Penguin's progression. The final post was penguin's pov as posted by cabd, but the first two were written by penguin

[Lukewarm]

Titus: Nothing in Titus's ISO feels town to me. There's a disproportionate reliance on the mechanic that I don't like on Day One, and while I make allowance for the weekend, I don't feel like there's any attempt to get into the game from a solving perspective. I don't buy the 'OMG game has so many pages' thing partially because she was quite critical of the idea of page limits in my Warehouse 13 game. To me, that implies being fine with Day One rambling on from a game perspective. She's also avoiding really mixing it up with anyone, and I don't feel like it's coming from a town place. More of a 'keep head down, shove the problem down the line, and see where I can jump later' thing that comes from a scum playbook.

VOTE: Titus

No, this isn't a fun vote, but it's where I think scum is living, and I'm more interested in cutting down scum numbers (especially since I suspect that if she's scum she isn't demonized yet) than having brilliant insights.

--PA

Getting into the Titus material now.

I think 2343 is the most complete breakdown of it. And damned if I don't agree. Cabd is out on site visits today, but I know he thought your case was laid out well but hadn't read it (we had a fun night where I woke up screaming in pain in the middle of the night, it's a thing, and he said you'd posted about Titus). I think I see what you're seeing, and it reminds me of the same potential feelings of shame I have for a very old game, NY161, where someone claimed a cop guilty result, we eliminated the result for a town flip, and then somehow got talked into giving him another chance with ANOTHER claimed guilty the next day to the same town flip result. No, we didn't do it a third time, but it was too little too late for the town. I feel like the way this Titus timeline goes down, we're looking at having to use the shards town does control Day One and Day Two to power her up, all for the chance we get a confirmed town on her slot. Assuming scum doesn't block her, kill her target (by Night Two with three players out and up to three scum alive, they might be looking at only a six player pool for killing her purported target. And if she crumbs, that helps them too. What happens when Day Three hits and we don't have that promised confirmed-town-Titus? Do we give her another chance? Or do we eliminate her, knowing that we gave her the two shards it takes for her to count as a demon regardless of alignment?

(snip)

3) The Titus case is persuasive. The big question I have is why she actually cut off her 'gambit' where she did with her wagon. We're dismissed as a justified vote on her, but Pooky is the one and only fish she thinks she caught before pulling in her bait. I realize that people scum reading us can easily dismiss it as a partner interaction, but it doesn't track from my knowledge, so what's her motivation?

--PA

P-edit: looks like there's time to consider the Titus case anyways. Sharding should be decided before anyone gets to L-2, I would say.

I sincerely hope penguin is wrong but she thinks that titus flips town, despite everything.

[Lukewarm]

DAY 1 SHARD COUNT

Am I being dense here? I don't see why we're entertaining the possibility of 2 demons yesterday.

Hello. Am taking break from moving. I have read like 5 posts.

Can you explain this to me?

Day 1 shard count was low. Low was defined as 0-2 demons. Why would we not entertain the possibility of 2 demons? It fits in the low count, right?

Since we jumped to medium, I feel like that also supports the idea that we started closer to the threshold, no?

It is very possible that this was discussed earlier, and I missed it. So sorry if that is the case

[Lukewarm]

A sample Role PM is just that

An sample. Even then, factional kill is separate. I think a member can choose to kill and one of them can self-distribute with the multitask clause in play

I refuse to entertain the idea that the scum team can factionally kill and factionally give out shards. The sample goon pm is very explicit that the factional choice is either/or. If the actual factional ability allows for both, then imo, the mod lied to us. And I don't think bork would do that.

And yes. It was a sample. But it was the sample for a mafia goon. Implying that if there is a mafia goon, that is what their pm looks like (minus flavor name) so I am functioning on the knowledge that the factional ability is what bork said. the factional ability being

Dark Alliance [Mafia]

- You are a member of the Mafia and may talk to your partners here, and, at night, elect a member to perform either a single factional kill OR assign two shards to any combination of living players.

[Lukewarm]

Make like a paddleboat and row yourself down a large waterfall fucker

Logs on, and this is the first post I see. No context. Just this.

[Lukewarm]

Oh, also, Happy Anniversary Penguin

(you present is some Cabd erasure to balance the scales )

[Lukewarm]

I started trying to read, but I am actually admitting defeat.

I did see Dunn's claim, and I think that it pretty unambiguously says that Medea is town. So I think that dunn and medea must be the same alignment. Which is frustrating because I had dunn as town and medea as scum, so that is fun.

Full disclosure, I am going to be incredibly useless for the next like 3 irl days. This game gets too many posts per day for me to properly keep up just checking in briefly each night. So, I will probably have to just do a big old catch up once my life has settled down a bit more, a la rep-in.

[Lukewarm]

Just thinking about it.

If dunn and medea are town, then like the starts aligned to give this clear. an introvert doctor and a reflexive cop reaching one another, especially with the reflexive cop not outed in anyway... takes some hoops to jump through.

Medea must have decided to doc Dunn, without knowing his role, and when I feel like there were many other higher priority targets for the NK
And no one could have targeted Medea, when they seemed like they had a decently high chance of being targeted by something

On the other hand, it being a bit convoluted I think makes it less likely to be a made up scum claim. Because, like, any member of the town targeting Medea would just out both of them. That being said, if anyone did target Medea with any ability, I think that they should out that.

But we probably should not shoot Medea today without someone claiming that they targeted them

[Lukewarm]

You know I just realized

Which one of you was arguing with me that scum chooses to kill or shard?

...When has scum ever had the option to not kill? The factional has

always

been required

That was me. I do not think that the scum team can do both, based on the sample role PM explicitly saying that the factional ability was kill OR (all caps was in the sample pm) give ouy 2 shards.

imo, it makes this game feel somewhat akin to the Forest Fire Redux I was in, where the "night kill" did not kill the target, and instead primed them. Which sucked because it got rid of night kill association

[Lukewarm]

Nor is the missing kill due to Rhea being the nightkill target and her being hidden.

I am on team, "they opted to hand out shards instead of kill" but how can you say this part so confidently?

[Lukewarm]

Actually. I think I misread your post

[Lukewarm]

ignore me

[Lukewarm]

hey lukewarm! got time 2 chat?

I am here off and on, what up?

[Lukewarm]

hey lukewarm! got time 2 chat?

I am here off and on, what up?

i am curious abt your thoughts regarding the Titus wagon considering you founded it. do you have an idea or guess abt who might be scum on it? i think you might have the best perspective on this

Over night, I was actually looking at Medea for the way they positioned around the wagon. (see my first post of the day) So that is where I was looking when I actually had brain power dedicated to looking, but now the dunn claim kind of cuts that line of thinking off...

I was also disappointed that we never gave her a chance to full claim / flavor claim. Seeing her flip, I actually think that that probably would have bought her out of the day 1 elim, since she could have confirmed the fruit vendor without us first powering her up. But it is hard to be too mad about that, since I never really championed for us to hold off. I was really really sure x.x

So I guess the Pooky surprise hammer was probably the vote that stood out the most to me. He seemed to buy the claim, then medea expressed doubt on the wagon, then he hammered without declaring intent.

[Lukewarm]

I'm sure I could find those three day one town reads but for my own lazyness could you re-iterate them?

Annie, Dunn...?

I believe I ended up in that final slot

[Lukewarm]

Here is a just-woke-up-in the-middle-of-the-night-and-while-getting-a-glass-of-water thought.

We can potentially test the dunn/medea duo tonight if someone targets Dunn overnight, and then we see if he get a result on that persons role.

Maybe good idea, but probably bad to coordinate who is doing so.
Also, maybe bad idea No deep thinking has happened here. Just a lightbulb went off

[Lukewarm]

Back to sleep now

[Lukewarm]

I have

skimmed

the posts since my last visit.

I would just like to say that the only reason I am not currently voting for Medea is because of the Dunn claim. They feel like scum to me, both from day 1 stuff and their positioning around the Titus wagon and from what I have seen today.

The vibes are bad. But I don't vote on just vibes... and since the vibes dont match the claims, and I don't currently have the brain power to dig in anydeeper then vibes, I won't be voting until post vla.


@dragons, Sorry if I made you feel ignored day 1. I think I was pretty wrapped up in my own plethora of scum reads day 1 x.x

[Lukewarm]

The "they" above meaning the Medea hydra. Not Dunn

[Lukewarm]

Hello. I am a human still.

[Lukewarm]

We are sitting in high, which means there is at least 6. They need 9, and can turn at least 1 per night. There are 2 of them. At best, we can miss once before the game ends x.x

This is basically the night before elo, but there are a lot more possiblies then that would normally imply.

This is a punishing mechanic

[Lukewarm]

Oh also if you lot think there's a town vig in this fucking setup still raise your hands so I may take notes to lambast you.

Unless there is a vig who can only fire after being turned into a demon, but they managed to walk into this day phase still human

[Lukewarm]

Can we just launch the mouse into the deepest part of the ocean.

Lld confirmed he was human.

[Lukewarm]

Damn. I saw the demon threat level, and it made me forget my planned thread opening joke x.x

Spoiler:

Hey guys! I'm back from my VLA, what have I missed?

[Lukewarm]

I have no idea who we should kill. Gotta say, missing day 1 but then hitting scum day 2 Resulting a game state that is potentially Elo sure feels bad, and kills motivation...

[Lukewarm]

Unwnd's claim that he can also shard people, but has been holstering feels insane for this set up?

If he had used his ability night 1, then we would have already lost given the original 7 demon win con.

I kind of don't want to believe that bork would put that in here too...

[Lukewarm]

Wow, maybe I can share some of my infinite town Wim with you two, but you suck for saying that Lukewarm.

I mean it in a nice way.

-Bell

I mean, I am here. And I am gonna keep trying, but it feels REAL BAD.

[Lukewarm]

Unwnd's claim that he can also shard people, but has been holstering feels insane for this set up?

If he had used his ability night 1, then we would have already lost given the original 7 demon win con.

I kind of don't want to believe that bork would put that in here too...

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I kind of feel like this can't be real?

Even with the changes, if unwnd had been using this ability (even just night 1) we could be in autolose. Do we really think that we are in a game where we would be in autolose after successfully hitting scum unless one townie chose to holster every day?

[Lukewarm]

while knowing Dunnstral was lying

?!?!?!?!?

?!?!?!?!?!? x2

[Lukewarm]

Bell jumping to the idea ?!?!?!?!? meant that we were second guessing our read on him is... interesting

[Lukewarm]

Are we mass claiming?

[Lukewarm]

I am voting in FAVOR of massclaim, with Dunn dictating order, as he's already claimed minus flavor name.

Do you think we should do flavor claims, or just abilities?

[Lukewarm]

I am voting in FAVOR of massclaim, with Dunn dictating order, as he's already claimed minus flavor name.

Do you think we should do flavor claims, or just abilities?

At this point?

It's day two and LLD says "massclaim time to prevent fuckery"

I will even volunteer to go first if we decide to popcorn instead of agreeing to let Dunn dictate.

I don't care if we do popcorn or let Dunn do it. But Dunn checked in and did not start organizing it x.x

[Lukewarm]

I am a Human Vanilla Townie when the game started, now i am a demonic vanilla townie.

My character name is Orloc Dracule

This flavor does not appear to match the claim

[Lukewarm]

I know nothing about this game, but just googled that name

[Lukewarm]

But like, it is so comically mismatched that it seems strange that she was the one pushing for flavor claims?

[Lukewarm]

Aa9, have you googled your flavor name?

[Lukewarm]

Aa9, you do not have a correct understanding of the win condition...

[Lukewarm]

Scum can be human (and actually MUST have at least 1 human mechanically) so turning one if themselves into a demon would fit under the "turn humans into demons"

[Lukewarm]

But like, it is so comically mismatched that it seems strange that she was the one pushing for flavor claims?

Aa9, have you googled your flavor name?

Actually I was wrong.. Mantee can die tomorrow.

this is by far the worst scum behavior ever.. bring it on luke. You die today and your partner tomorrow.

VOTE: Lukewarm

I.... Said that it was so mismatched that I don't know that scum you would push for revealing it?

You just quoted me considering the idea that you could be town, and decided to death match me lol

[Lukewarm]

Lukewarm, what exactly is your take on the flavorclaim part of AA9's claim? I have no flavor knowledge, but I also don't play games like this at all, so I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting what I'm reading.

AA9, Lukewarm is very likely town here. His push on Titus was very genuine, and his reaction afterwards was super-towny. Then he was gone most of D2 when scum were clearly aiming for the Pooky Beloved Princess elim. Despite butting heads with him a lot myself D1, I'm townreading him now.

--PA

P-edit: Spiffeh, I'm waiting now for massclaim to end before getting into this, although it's being borne out here, ha.

I googled the name she listed, and the first thing it said was "Demon" and "boss" which I think would imply that she would be bad?

I googled my role and Titus flip, and our characters seem to have somewhat similar backstories, and felt thematically right that we would both be town roles and aslo both start human.

I googled pooky's flavor name, and the first thing I was was "demon" and "boss" so... Yeah


That being said, It still feels weird for scum!aa9 to come out and push for everyone to flavor claim, then see no one else flavor claim and flavor claim anyways, and claim a flavor that would incriminate her?

[Lukewarm]

I found this: Orlok Dracule and the opening paragraph says "Despite his nature, he apparently means no harm to the player." He's a secret boss at the very end of the game where if you clear 99% of the content, you can fight him because he claims you aren't taking good care of a book you got from him. This seems pretty minor character-esque to me, but I don't know enough about the genre to say.

I checked the Mini Theme Queue sign-up and the Upcoming Games Advertisement, and it didn't say role madness anywhere.

--PA

Just looked closer at the wiki, and I think I was wrong to stop at seeing he was a boss. It does kinda make sense for him to be town, he apparently helps the protag. But is strange for him to start human?

I am curious if there is anyone else whose character is listed as a demon in the wiki, but then started as a human in this game anyways?

[Lukewarm]

Ceph, I was thinking similarly to what you have been saying about how it could work last day phase, because I agree thatedea has been exceptionally scummy. But with the pooky flip and lld confirming Dunn's ability, I think it just can't fit anymore.

Like, I went through a "what if there was a watcher" lines of thoughts.

But now I think mech wise, it just doesn't work.

Lld cannot be in on it because there is only 2 scum left. So, Dunn accurately getting the name of her ability proves Dunn's claim.

If dunn is a reflexive rolecop, then the only way that it could ever not break immediately when they claimed medea successfully targeted them every single night is if they knew no one targeted Medea. So, only possibility would be like a self watcher?

Reflexive rolecop + self watcher + beloved princess does not cover who ever is corrupting people

[Lukewarm]

Then Dunn needs to give out the rest of the order.

Annie Edison, Lukewarm, Snarky Fishes

I am started as a human vt, and because I am human I am still a vt.

I don't want to claim my demon ability, because I don't want to tell the scum team whether I am the best person or the worst person for them to demonize tonight

[Lukewarm]

I find it hard to see scum ceph, just because out thinking has been aligned like the whole game. Everything they have said about Medea since day 1, and even all of their thoughts about how it could still work given the claims we have out here, was all thoughts that I have had.

Imo, it feels like a deeply convince townie (like I was all the way up to lld confirming Dunn's ability), and scum would have abandoned the push on Medea long before now

[Lukewarm]

Maybe I am just wrong on everything this game, but it has felt like we were approaching things the same way. And he even pedited me with the self watcher post lol

[Lukewarm]

Thought about defending them day 2 - but was slightly worried that I was being pocketed with them being the only people on the entire game who town read me in the first part of day 1.

But the pedit pushed me over x.x

[Lukewarm]

I really really wish that beloved princess ordeal just didn't happen.

That role is haunting me. I have no data

It happened.

Now we play the hand we're dealt.

Does it make sense to elim us and demand a mutual scumread be the hammer?

That would waste the corrupted action on us and prevent us from being demonized N4 and maybe result in a scum flip too.

It would be a wasted elim if the chosen player refuses to hammer, and maybe they'd be willing to do that if scum can win N4 without demonizing us?

I kind of like this idea? A refusal to hammer would be treated as a scum claim, and we would flash wagon the person. So them refusing to hammer does not really work I don't think?

[Lukewarm]

Can't kill and instead choosing to lowball alt wincon play

That is not a Lukewarm/Manatee scumplan, AA9

You don't know me. I could be a coward !

[Lukewarm]

im a human VT/

demonic unknown backup

Hello. We're the desharder you're looking for. We are a human vt,

demon vanillarizer & shard destroyer

.

I see now why the vanillarizer is actually quite helpful. I was afraid we would be suplexed into the sun if we claimed it earlier. In retrospect, maybe we should have claimed sooner and begged for shards. But we didnt know there was going to be a damn dayskip that sucked our time to work shit out away.

Sorry if my play this game has been exceptionally bad.

[!]

This makes sense

[Lukewarm]

I think it might be worth doing?

If we can humanize 1 person a night then the scum team would have to stop demonizing people for at least 1 night to kill you or they would not win with the alternate win con.

And even that might not be great for them, because we will plant Medea's doc on you, so they gotta get past that too

[Lukewarm]

Issue with that plan is that the "8 demon wincon" is "any point in time" not a "at a specific checkpoint" thing.

It's at best a one for one trade, at worst it's an instant loss depending on if the scumshards resolve first.

I thought it was 9

If we are at 6 now, then at night the scum team turns 1 and manatee turns one back, then we go 6->7->6, and never cross the 9 demon threshold

[Lukewarm]

although i agree that that's the most likely thing that could be going on if manatee is real, if that isn't what's going on it would be a game losing mistake for sure. not rushing to support my own elim here. it makes more sense to try to get the corrupter today imo.

If someone has a confident case on who the corrupter is, then yeah. Let's do that.

But I am not sure who to kill with that game plan, and missing there is also game losing

[Lukewarm]

Oh, right, nine.

But we don't know for sure we're at 6.

And manatee can't do anything? You meant cephtd

No, we are talking about if it is worth it to kill ceph while he is still human, to let manatee start desharding people since she is already a demon.

Turning ceph would take too long, and just lose us the game.

[Lukewarm]

Oh, right, nine.

But we don't know for sure we're at 6.

And manatee can't do anything? You meant cephtd

No, we are talking about if it is worth it to kill ceph while he is still human, to let manatee start desharding people since she is already a demon.

Turning ceph would take too long, and just lose us the game.

Oh. Fucking derp.

No. We need to elim scum using ffery's plan. That locks out their conversion and hopefully kills somebody.

I was thinking that if we were to do this, we might want to think about killing the dragons with ffery's plan, to kill off 2 people who are still human.

But. This is new info, and I want to think on it more

[Lukewarm]

If we miss on the corrupter today, then the scum team can corrupt 1 person and then turn them + the fishes. So 6->8 or worse, 7-> 9 x.x

So, I think either way we decide to do this, either killing whoever we think is the corrupter or killing the dragons, I think we should always use the fishes to do so ?

[Lukewarm]

I kind of really like the manatee plan. It feels like we are in Elo, but there are just too many people alive. Normally at Elo, even a random shot is 50%. But we are at Elo with 2 scum in 11. Shooting for scum feels really bad to me, and I think I would much prefer the game state with some flips. Even town flips. Have so few flips makes it hard for me to feel confident in much of anything.

That feels like the only path towards getting this game to a state where I feel like I can get a handle on it.

[Lukewarm]

I think aa9 is town spiffeh :/

[Lukewarm]

Got it. That gives a little wiggle room but i'm still loathe to act and get fancy on it instead of trying to solve the corrupter with ffery's "lol nah to us becoming demon bruv" plan.

Can't demonize a corpse.

I think we might be able to lock the scum team out of the alt win con.

If 4 people die human, they HAVE to win the normal way.

Titus has died human.

We have ceph (or anyone human actually) self kill on the fishes. That is 3

We kill a human tomorrow, and we broke the alt win con

[Lukewarm]

This is the first plan that has felt good to me all day.

Elo/night before Elo feels impossible with this many people alive, and I would like to try and shut down the alt win con x.x

[Lukewarm]

I think we might be able to lock the scum team out of the alt win con.

If 4 people die human, they HAVE to win the normal way.

Titus has died human.

We have ceph (or anyone human actually) self kill on the fishes. That is 3

We kill a human tomorrow, and we broke the alt win con

Can someone run the numbers for me

If we are at 7 demons right now does this still work or would we still auto lose tonight?

If we are at 7, I think the plan only works if manatee turns into a desharder, and can help us

[Lukewarm]

Well, I want to bet the game on one of 3 things being true (any of them would make this plan viable:

-The dragons are scum
-The fishes are scum
- manatee will become a desharder (what I think is most likely to happen btw)

And if none of those are true, and we lose then I think I will just yell at bork in the post game

[Lukewarm]

trustfall: bork

That he gave us adequate ways to fight against the alt win con

[Lukewarm]

Well, I want to bet the game on one of 3 things being true (any of them would make this plan viable:

-The dragons are scum
-The fishes are scum
- manatee will become a desharder (what I think is most likely to happen btw)

And if none of those are true, and we lose then I think I will just yell at bork in the post game

4407?

If manatee becomes a desharder, then the math works (if one of you are scum, we killed scum, so ignoring that for this post)

Eod we have 3 dead humans, and (6/7) demons

Over night, manatee deshards someone we think is scum (same person we would kill today if we don't do this plan) and the scum team kills manatee. 3 dead humans (5/6) demons.

We kill manatees target. 4 dead humans (and hopefully another dead scum bag) (5/6) demons

Over night, they demonize someone. 4 dead humans (6/7) demons

Next day, we kill a the scummiest human claim. 5 dead humans, alt win con is dead.

[Lukewarm]

I'm not convinced Lukewarm is Town I REALLY don't get why he's universally townread

Well, if I was scum I would be VERY close to winning by the alt win con, and I am very much trying to find a way to stop it.

Like, I would have just outlined the way to halt my win con in it's tracks if manatee is a desharder back up. So I would be betting the entire game on her NOT being that. So I think I could only do this if it was exactly manatee and know her real role?

[Lukewarm]

I'm not convinced Lukewarm is Town I REALLY don't get why he's universally townread

Well, if I was scum I would be VERY close to winning by the alt win con, and I am very much trying to find a way to stop it.

Like, I would have just outlined the way to halt my win con in it's tracks if manatee is a desharder back up. So I would be betting the entire game on her NOT being that. So I think I could only do this if it was

exactly manatee

and know her real role?

If it was exactly me + manatee

[Lukewarm]

Lukewarm what are your reads? Like what’s your solve for the remaining two scum at this point?

No thanks. Not pushing scum reads anymore. I have a new shiny plan

[Lukewarm]

I think I might want manatee to deshard Annie tho x.x

[Lukewarm]

Luke, if we're accepting you're NEVER getting sharded of your own volition, I think we need to finish massclaim.

Your plan may or may not get used. But regardless as the shiny green mosueboy stated, still gotta FIND the scum.

Your plan has the potential of us putting ourselves into traditional ELO anwyays JUST to lockout the alt wincon.

It would lock out the alt win con

And still let's us kill our top suspect along the way. so if they flip scum we will not be in Elo anyways, but if they flip town

then we are are at Elo with half the suspects (inluding our top incorrect suspect) dead.

[Lukewarm]

Luke, if we're accepting you're NEVER getting sharded of your own volition, I think we need to finish massclaim.

I did not claim BECAUSE I know I am not getting it of my own volition, and I am making it harder for them to decide between sharing me or whoever else is still human.

[Lukewarm]

I am currently a vt, and so I have no prior actions to claim to help us. And I am going to still be a vt tonight, so there is no action for tonight to plan.

Stating it now only helps the scum team make an optimal choice tonight (ESPECIALLY if we are not going with my plan)

[Lukewarm]

@lld

You are the one who first pointed out the desharder option for manatee.

Are you in favor of this plan, or no?

[Lukewarm]

Lukewarm instead of spending multiple posts explaining why you shouldn’t have to give us any reads you could have just provided your reads

I made... One post about that...

I said no, and then I moved on to other things.

[Lukewarm]

Lukewarm instead of spending multiple posts explaining why you shouldn’t have to give us any reads you could have just provided your reads

I made... One post about that...

I said no, and then I moved on to other things.

Are there any humans you're scumreading currently?

I have already pointed at unwnd.

I just pointed at Annie as also being in my poe on the demonized people if we go with my plan (although apparently spiffeh and Medea both missed it...)

[Lukewarm]

DEMON

1. Pooky (Start) (Dead)
2. Medea (Start)
3. ArcAngel9 (N1)
4. ManateeLass (N2)
5. Annie Edison (N2)
6. Spiffeh (N3)

Medea is mech locked out of being scum (despite me scum reading them for most of the game)

I don't think that aa9 is scum. All of the meta stuff + her day play being very non-strategic, when the scum teams day play has felt very purposeful since it feels like we are borderline losing atm

My plan revolves around manatee being town, so not in the Poe for the plan lol

That just leaves spiffeh and Annie. Spiffeh can never be scum unless with Annie. So, Annie would always have to flip before we would ever even consider looking at spiffeh.

----

I also had some paranoia on Annie from before this day phase started, and originally planned on bringing up after the mass claim. But currently more interested in the desharding plan, so did not start doing that yet.

I already mentioned that Annie was my top choice for manatee to deshard over night, but figured it was Step 1 -> convince people on the plan. Step 2 -> convince people on the target.

[Lukewarm]

I'm not townreading unwnd (as I've made pretty clear). :/

What connects Annie to unwnd?

If @cabd, sorry to step in.

If @me, I was not looking into teams.

[Lukewarm]

Btw I can target Dunnstral tonight to confirm my role through him if an Annie + Me scum team is actually a concern for people

I plan to target Dunn unless I hear otherwise.

That was not particularly a concern of mine, but was a quicker sentence to write to write you off then going into all of the reasons to think you are town atp

[Lukewarm]

I would like to hear what the paranoia was about, because as is it looks like you’re calling it a paranoia read when it’s a PoE read and that feels weird :/

The paranoia was keeping you out of being tabled as a town read. The Poe pushed you to my top choice out of the demons.

Mostly buldge tbh. And the fact that he is basically not here, at all...

Over night I decided to talk to ffery today about how normal that is (and to also make sure that I am not just terrible at telling y'all's posts apart).

And also, when he was here, the vast majority of his posts seemed to be about either me or manatee. Both the 2 newest players on the player list and the two most concensisly scum read players day 1.

[Lukewarm]

It is weird to feel like the last few pages of my posts are the most obvtown I have been all game, but this is when people start doubting me again?

What scum is here 100% focused on working out how to thwart the wincon that the scum team has been working towards all game, instead of just... Pushing fake reads?

And, like. If manatee is a deshard back up, and people actually listen to me, I'm actively throwing the game. (Unless someone thinks there is a way for me to know for a fact that she is NOT the desharder when she does not even know for sure)

[Lukewarm]

Rhea if you want me dead you have a to push to kill me. I’m not hammering Fishes.

If we miss on the corrupter today, then the scum team can corrupt 1 person and then turn them + the fishes. So 6->8 or worse, 7-> 9 x.x

So, I think either way we decide to do this, either killing whoever we think is the corrupter or killing the dragons, I think we should always use the fishes to do so ?

??

[Lukewarm]

Notty. Do you see how, even if you are town, killing you directly is worse then killing you through the fishes?

[Lukewarm]

And I told you I’m not doing it, I don’t give a fuck.

If we decide to go with someone else, do you think we should use the fishes? Or is this just that you refuse to use the fishes?

[Lukewarm]

We’ve been scums bitch this entire game the solution isn’t to play into the exact scenario they’ve REPEATEDLY set up all game

They corrupted the fishes.

I feel like that heavily implies their plan is to corrupt someone else, and demonize the fishes +1 tonight, right?

How is stopping their plan, while still killing who ever we choose (you or someone else, does not matter for this discussion) playing into the scenario they want to happen?

[Lukewarm]

Using the fishes feels like it is making one of their corruption abilities wasted, and also delaying their win con by a day. Like very clearly anti- the scum plan.

I don't understand the argument for NOT using them today

[Lukewarm]

Because it’s not me disagreeing with the mech. It’s principle for me.

This "principle" sure does line up with scum deciding it is better to die directly, then to die AND lose the fishes demonization

[Lukewarm]

I feel so sure Annie's town. And they're demonized, so their death doesn't help the alternate wincon.

Why are you pushing notsci to suicide on me again?

For me, it is more shock and confusion that he would rather be voted out directly then to take advantage of your role

[Lukewarm]

I really don't like that Rhea's pushing here.

Well, Unless you can make a case for Dunn Medea AND Me as scum, you're kind of stuck with it, given I'm confirmed town otherwise.

I still don't like it.

mechanically, Luke's case probably makes the best use of our ability to stop the shard bleedout.

and now, HE's pushing for something less optimal than his case that could so easily wind up either failing or leaving us at 5/2 in 3 days of elimming humans rather than focusing on scumhunting.

I am not pushing for him to suicide himself right now? I still much prefer my plan.

(See me asking him questions about his stance, but never asking him to vote for you)

You asked why we were pushing for him to suicide on you, and I said that I wasn't pushing for that, I am just posting in shock and confusion of his stance.

[Lukewarm]

Am I misunderstanding?

It sure looks like Luke wants Annie to hammer you and is taking Annie's refusal as a scum claim?

You are misunderstanding.

I was asking him to explain why he would rather get voted out over hammering the fishes. To understand his thinking.

I still think that the best plan is for ceph to hammer the fishes, and then manatee to deshard Annie in the night, and then we kill Annie tomorrow.

If anything, the recent posts just make me happier with my pick of Annie as the demon target for manatee.

[Lukewarm]

And I told you I’m not doing it, I don’t give a fuck.

If

we decide to go with someone else

, do you think we should use the fishes? Or is this just that you refuse to use the fishes?

We’ve been scums bitch this entire game the solution isn’t to play into the exact scenario they’ve REPEATEDLY set up all game

They corrupted the fishes.

I feel like that heavily implies their plan is to corrupt someone else, and demonize the fishes +1 tonight, right?

How is stopping their plan, while still killing

who ever we choose (you or someone else, does not matter for this discussion

) playing into the scenario they want to happen?

Using the fishes feels like it is making one of their corruption abilities wasted, and also delaying their win con by a day. Like very clearly anti- the scum plan.

I don't understand the argument for NOT using them today

[Lukewarm]

Am I misunderstanding?

It sure looks like Luke wants Annie to hammer you and is taking Annie's refusal as a scum claim?

You are misunderstanding.

I was asking him to explain why he would rather get voted out over hammering the fishes. To understand his thinking.

I still think that the best plan is for ceph to hammer the fishes, and then manatee to deshard Annie in the night, and then we kill Annie tomorrow.

If anything, the recent posts just make me happier with my pick of Annie as the demon target for manatee.

What happens if you're wrong about manatee's backup ability?

Then we probably lose (unless one of you or ceph turn out to be scum)

But what happens if we are wrong on anyone today?

If we let lld lead an elim on annie, and they flip town, I am pretty sure that is an auto loss as well. (You +1 become scum tonight 6->8. and then even if we hit scum tomorrow, the last scum can demonize someone the next day 8->9).


I feel more confident that manatee is the desharder back up (or else this is just a fucked set up imo) then I am confident that we can correctly shoot scum twice in a row right now.

[Lukewarm]

** become demons

[Lukewarm]

I understand that my plan can go wrong, and we just lose the game. You are not giving me new info.

But I also know that if we misshoot today, we also can just lose the game. So, unless we have a confident solve on exactly the correct scum team, then this is a risky as hell path as well.

And when we are sitting at 2 scum in a list of 11 players, I don't like those odds more then I like the odds of just believing that bork tried to give us multiple tools towards stopping the demonization win con.

[Lukewarm]

And we do not appear particularly unified or confident on having the correct solve atm

[Lukewarm]

Also, Luke, you said something about having planned to ask me about Bulge.

IME he's usually a very low activity player and I've seen him miselimmed in part due to that lack of activity in more than one game.

His activity level in the Annie hydra here looks about the same as in the Annie hydra's activity level in Tenet.

I feel like focusing on a read of him in the Annie hydra is kinda similar to focusing on a read of me in this hydra.

Outside of Annie, I have played 1 game with Notty and 2 games with the bulge. All 3 game, they were town and I was also town.

In this game looking at bulge's post, I had him leaning scum when I had him as town reads in both of the others games. So, on a Bulge stand point that is concerning to me.

In this game looking at just notty's post, I had him leaning town (all the way up to the recent couple pages about using your ability, which is not a good look imo), but definitely not as strongly as the other game that I played with him in even before that.

[Lukewarm]

It’s hard for me to be like Berserker on notty. It’s easier under cobra Kai or anon alts. I’ve been trying to replicate it.

Or if you’re talking about where I lolhammered marci then like… duh this game is different

the lolhammer on marci was an annie game.

I was referring to the FGO game, where you were my number 1 top town read halfway through day 0.

Day 1 of this game, you seemed townie, and I was leaning town on you, but not as strongly as that game.

[Lukewarm]

Annie, if we were to go with my plan. Who do you think is a better target in the demonized pool?

The only options in that pool are you, Medea, AA9, Spiffeh,

manatee

[Lukewarm]

Medea doesn’t make sense as scum with Pooky

What about the two of them makes you feel like they are unaligned?

[Lukewarm]

Snarky's role isn't useful for us.

Let's say we find mafia and tell them to vote Snarky Fishes.

Well, they're not going to do it.

So then we wagon that person instead, but if we're asking somebody to hammer Snarky Fishes then we were set on eliminating that person anyway.

The only time Snarky Fishes gets hammered is if the other person is town.

Well, my plan revolves around purposefully killing two townies with it but

This missed the benefit of it.

-----

Worst case sceario if we are wrong and DO NOT use the fishes: We lose!

We are in auto lose, and have lost the game. Tonight, they corrupt someone, then demonize that person AND the fishes (6->8) Now they only need 1 more, and there are 2 scum. It is impossible to kill them before the scum team wins.

-----
Compared to worst case scenario if we are wrong, and DO use the fishes: We are in Elo tomorrow

What ever townie we kill, dies along side the fishes, but now at night, the scum team cannot turn TWO different players. Only 1. (6->7). Now they need 2 more, and there are 2 scum. There is still a chance to kill them before the scum team wins.

------

Using the fishes means that we buy our self 1 extra miss before we lose.

If we are wrong on our elim target, then we at the very least slowing the alt win.

So, we pick a target. Give them hammer power over the fishes. If they are town, they hammer and we slow the bleed on the demonization, delaying the scum win con by a day.

If they refuse to hammer the fishes, then we treat it as a scum claim and we kill them outright.

[Lukewarm]

So, we pick a target.

And my plan is for the dragons to be the target here.

[Lukewarm]

But the idea applies even if we are not going with my plan

[Lukewarm]

I wish to pretend nobody is that stupid.

-Bell

For me at least, it is more that I feel like no matter what plan we go with, that person should hammer you. (If we are not going with my plan, I believe I would choose unwnd.)

And then Annie said that if they were the elim target, he would never go along with that plan, even if it mechanically helps us win to do it that way x.x

[Lukewarm]

Snarky's role isn't useful for us.

Let's say we find mafia and tell them to vote Snarky Fishes.

Well, they're not going to do it.

So then we wagon that person instead, but if we're asking somebody to hammer Snarky Fishes then we were set on eliminating that person anyway.

The only time Snarky Fishes gets hammered is if the other person is town.

Well, my plan revolves around purposefully killing two townies with it but

This missed the benefit of it.

-----

Worst case sceario if we are wrong and DO NOT use the fishes: We lose!

We are in auto lose, and have lost the game. Tonight, they corrupt someone, then demonize that person AND the fishes (6->8) Now they only need 1 more, and there are 2 scum. It is impossible to kill them before the scum team wins.

-----
Compared to worst case scenario if we are wrong, and DO use the fishes: We are in Elo tomorrow

What ever townie we kill, dies along side the fishes, but now at night, the scum team cannot turn TWO different players. Only 1. (6->7). Now they need 2 more, and there are 2 scum. There is still a chance to kill them before the scum team wins.

------

Using the fishes means that we buy our self 1 extra miss before we lose.

If we are wrong on our elim target, then we at the very least slowing the alt win.

So, we pick a target. Give them hammer power over the fishes. If they are town, they hammer and we slow the bleed on the demonization, delaying the scum win con by a day.

If they refuse to hammer the fishes, then we treat it as a scum claim and we kill them outright.

[Lukewarm]

With that in mind, it still seems crazy to me that if the thread did decide to kill annie today, that a Town!annie would rather get voted out directly, and instantly lose the game for the town, then to vote you

[Lukewarm]

can someone explain the various plans my eyes r glazing over trying 2 read

Plan 1) Find the corrupter plan.

Find the person who is most likely to be the corrupter, and force them to hammer the fishes. If we get to the point of hammer, and they refuse we treat it as a scum claim, and speed elim them

Plan 2) Deshard!

Choose who we think is the most likely to be scum inside the demons, they are the target.

Have the dragons hammer the fishes, to (hopefully) give you your deshard power. You deshard the target

Tomorrow, we kill the target and they die a human.

[Lukewarm]

Um. Are you sure that this doesn't just extend the game while functionally doing nothing?
like I'm basically an IC so it's not like flipping us would narrow the possible elimination pool any.

We'd only be worth flipping if you think we're living in a reality where we might be scum.
But we're not living in that one.

-Bell

Plan 1 (which I do not prefer) results in our top suspect dying, and delaying the alt win con (gives us 1 day of breathing room)

Killing out top suspect directly, results in our top suspect dying only.

[Lukewarm]

Um. Are you sure that this doesn't just extend the game while functionally doing nothing?
like I'm basically an IC so it's not like flipping us would narrow the possible elimination pool any.

We'd only be worth flipping if you think we're living in a reality where we might be scum.
But we're not living in that one.

-Bell

Plan 1 (which I do not prefer) results in our top suspect dying, and delaying the alt win con (gives us 1 day of breathing room)

Killing out top suspect directly, results in our top suspect dying only.

My plan completely stops the alt win con, and forces the scum team to win like a normal game of mafia

[Lukewarm]

Does your plan still rely on manateegal being a backup to dragon's claimed role?

Because I don't like that

Yes.

If we do my plan, and manatee is a back up to something else, we lose on the spot.

But on the other hand, if we kill out top suspect directly, and they flip town, we lose on the spot.

And if we kill using the fishes, and we miss we will be in Elo tomorrow.

All three options take risk. The fishes plan is the only one where being wrong today is not an auto lose. But, I still feel like my plan is the best plan.


There are just too few flips for me to feel confident in any scum team suggestion. There are still 11 out of 13 people still alive x.x

[Lukewarm]

If we do my plan, and manatee is a back up to something else, we lose on the spot.

Slight caveat to this.

We would not lose on the spot if either the fishes or the dragons are scum.

I am pushing under the idea that they are both town, but will activate manatee. But there is a little bit of an alternate world where it does not lose on the spot

[Lukewarm]

I am going to stop spamming the thread. My ideal plan is out there, and I think that it is the best path forward. It is founded on the basis that bork needed to give us ways to counteract the alt win con, and I am just choosing to believe that he did.

I have also voiced my top target if we don't go with my plan, so I don't think there is much more for me to add.

Night y'all

[Lukewarm]

Good night, good night!

Uh, yeah I can't really relate even a little bit to being upset about this game set up and what not.

This is not me upset by the set up, this is me excited to think that I found the ways that the mod intended for town to stand a chance against a scum team going for the shard win.

I was hard planning to just close my laptop for the night, but Cabd's last post peaked my interest. I might check back in later to see whats happening.

[Lukewarm]

Spiffeh, Annie, Snarky, Lukewarm, Dunnstral, Probably Medea.

What was Unwnd's claim again?

That he can give out shards.

[Lukewarm]

The ways are spiffeh's role and dragon's role (allegedly)

Trying... to not... take up the thread

Spoiler:

Spiff's role does not help against a scum team going for a shard win, because it only works if it stops a night kill, and a scum team going for a shard win is not night killing. So he would have to stop a potential (as of yet unclaimed) vig shot.

So 100% of town's ability to hinder a shard win (which is apparently very fast to achieve if not stopped) is tied up into one player, unless Manatee is the back up there.

[Lukewarm]

I agree but as I said I think this setup ended up with some issues in design

I don't really want to just say "the set up is bad" when I can see a perfectly good set up alternative.

I see the thought process of

Spoiler:

"we need there to be a desharder, to slow down the shard win"

"But if there is just a desharder out the gate, that can humanize everyone at .667 times the speed that the scum team can shard people, the shard win would be near impossible"

"Lets make is require you to be a demon, so that it starts some time after the scum team gets a head start"

"But if it is all on that one person, then if they misyeet that person day 1 without a claim (because our jester role does not give a fuck about lolhammers) then town would be irrevocably screwed, right?"

"Then we should give them a back up, just in case"

Like, I am looking at the other claims, and none of them feel like they make much sense to be the back up

[Lukewarm]

I am interested in the forensic accounting that is happening, but that is where I am at with the information that I have.

[Lukewarm]

I feel like all of the forensic accounting ended up pointing to the same exact place I was already. at (which gotta say, does make me feel smart )

We either go for making manatee the town hero

or we push unwnd to hammer the fishes (well, I said unwnd, you guys said me or unwnd, but we got pretty close to the same place)

[Lukewarm]

Luke.... do you know the saga of THE MUFFIN MAN?

The muffin man?

[Lukewarm]

Luke.... do you know the saga of THE MUFFIN MAN?

The muffin man?

Illicit-Muffin; Bloodstained-Luke

Illicit-Bork; Bloodstained Unwnd?

Can you link me to the illicit game so I can have any idea what you are saying?

(or just tell me, lol)

[Lukewarm]

Actually, I missed that they cannot shard lld. One sec

[Lukewarm]

Muffin came up with an auto win plan that involved his death and a few others.

In the end, the game ended at 3P with a town win because Bork was the scum.

I would very much like to be the muffin man

[Lukewarm]

Luke, if we don't go with the 'hero-ML' plan, you need to commit to suiciding on SF if unwnd declines to eliminate the possibility of it being my worst case scenario as outlined earlier.

--PA

If I get out voted, and we end on a "Luke is dying plan" I will hammer the fishes.

But, if we were voting for a plan, I would much rather the manatee hero plan

[Lukewarm]

Actually, I missed that they cannot shard lld. One sec

HUMAN

1. Titus (Dead)
2. LLD
3. unwnd
4. Snarky
5. Lukewarm
6. Dragons
7. Dunnstral

LLD cannot be sharded.
Unwnd becomes a vt when sharded
Snaky dies today
(I am me)
The dragons will never be sharded in a million years with their claim
Dunn being sharded does not matter at this point.

------

So, there is actually no strategic value for me to withhold my claim, actually.

I have been pretty blatantly softing that I turn into a vig when I am demonized, mainly because I was trying to scare the scum team from ever sharding me, and to hopefully result in shards going somewhere that would actually help the town. That actually can't happen at this point?

So, yeah. I am actually a VT/VT, and was just trying to make sure I was never given shards.

Which, btw Spiff - is part of the reason why I started believing AA9's claim. Having exactly 1 VT feels off (which Dunn pointed out), so from my pov, she was more likely to be town since otherwise I would be the only VT/VT

[Lukewarm]

Muffin came up with an auto win plan that involved his death and a few others.

In the end, the game ended at 3P with a town win because Bork was the scum.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=84369

I was going to look through their iso to find their plan, but then I saw that Muffin's iso was like 4 pages long

[Lukewarm]

My concern going with your plan surrounding Corrupter-unwnd here, is that even if we are right, and he is the corrupter, we are still on a tight deadline to find the his partner

Spoiler:

Day 4: There are 6 demons today with 11 alive, Unwnd refuses to super saint, so I suicide on the fishes. Then tonight there will be 7 demons.

Day 5: there will be 10 alive. you kill unwnd, and there will be 8 demons that night.

Day 6: We are at elo the next day, but with 9 alive.

If we are 100% right on unwnd, then on Day 6 we get exactly 1 shot at his partner in a pool of 9 players.

-----

However, if I am the muffin man, then we get a LOT of flips before elo.

Spoiler:

Day 4: There are 11 alive, and 6 demons. Snarky and Cephrd flip today. Manatee flips tonight.

Day 5: There are 8 alive, and 5 demons We kill our number 1 demon suspect (person manatee targeted).

Day 6: There are 7 alive and 7 demons. We kill out number 1 suspect of the remaining humans. (Unwnd dies here, so lets assume we are right on him, for comparison to the other plan) The scum win con is dead. Scum start night killing.

Day 7: The next day there are 5 alive with 1 scum. We kill, they kill

Day 8: we are at Elo.

Okay, so now (lets keep up that we are right on unwnd, and he dies day 6). If we get his partner in our first shot, then we actually win day 6 - same as above plan if we get his partner first shot. But we got so much leway.

We get a shot for unwnd's partner on day 5, on day 7, and on day 8 AND we start getting night kills to look at for info. And, this gives us a lot of leway if we are wrong on unwnd.


------

You guys don't want to bet the game on manatee being a desharder back up, but I don't want to bet the game on us being 100% right on unwnd and being 100% right on his partner, with exactly 1 shot to get those right.

[Lukewarm]

Unwnd, my plan is specifically designed to get us a lot of flips and to force the scum team to start night killing to give us info.

What are your thoughts on my plan?

[Lukewarm]

Or rather, what do you want us to be doing?

Instead of just telling us that what we are doing is bad, what is your suggestion for the day?

[Lukewarm]

The Medea plan kind of bets the game on you being scum. My plan gives us leway there

We get a shot for unwnd's partner on day 5, on day 7, and on day 8 AND we start getting night kills to look at for info.

And, this gives us a lot of leway if we are wrong on unwnd.

[Lukewarm]

Get the idea that I have a partner out of your head right now because it's not real.

I don't really know. Didn't you have some sort of plan/motive D1 and it ended up with Titus flipping town? Is that mean? I'm not trying to scold you like a dog. I just think people here are really fucking manipulative and will take your good words and twist it more favorably if they're scum. You need to be blunt with them and force them to do something.

I am not sure what you are actually asking me here?

Did I make a scum case on Titus, and was wrong? Yeah. I did. Does that mean that I should stop trying to come up with plans on how to win the game?

[Lukewarm]

Didn't you read my case, and then you also vote for Titus, and she flipped town?

Didn't you push for us to elim Pooky, and that bit us in the ass?

I am not sure that you really get act like you have the superior standing here...

[Lukewarm]

You are currently voting for Annie directly, which if that wagon goes through, and you are wrong, we lose the game on the spot. Are you looking at a pool of 11 players, and are so sure of your read there that you are ready to risk the entire game on it. That is your elo vote?

Because if you are that confident on your annie read, then I guess I expect a fucking magnificent scum case on them, instead of you just showing up to the thread whining about being scum read and yelling at us for caring about mech.

[Lukewarm]

You're reading me wrong. This is not a matter of superiority or that I know better. It's that I'm warning you the people you're dealing with.

I'm also telling you that the same people should know better. I am merely lamenting what I interpret what is going on. You know how you win games? You vote scum. Voting town is bad even if that gives data or whatever. Mislims are part of the game but when we're so apparently close with very little to fend ourselves with I tend to get a bit grouchy.

You are the one who was complaining about there not being any scum kills. My entire plan is "Lets sacrifice 2 townies, and FORCE the scum team to start making kills" Like, I am literally trying to get what you said that this game was missing...

[Lukewarm]

Because if you are that confident on your annie read, then I guess I expect a fucking magnificent scum case on them

If you want to ever live in a world where you are not the first person we are killing, this is probably what you should actually be working on.

Or coming up with something else.

[Lukewarm]

You know, that frustration and lack of conviction in my (or anyone elses) scum team solve is like THE driving force behind my plan, that you seem to be blowing off.

I don't have super strong conviction on 2 scum reads, and a lot of it does feel like I am being forced into poeing a solve. And it feels like there is not a ton of conviction for a solve coming from very many other people either. So quite frankly it is hard to bet the game on one.

But you are claiming to have that same emotion, and then turning around and voting towards betting the entire game on your Annie read that you don't have a strong conviction of... but that is not how I want to play.

What I do have a strong conviction of, is that a mod would not want a game to be such that town would need to figure out the exact scum team (AND EVEN WHICH ONE IS WHICH ROLE) when there have been exactly 2 flips this game. That is a conviction that I feel strongly enough to bet the game on. Right or wrong, that feels like a better bet to go out on then to go out on then to go out on a weak poe team solve that I can't even confidently case.

[Lukewarm]

Like if we lose because there were major flaws in the design, then well, we lose because there were major flaws in the design.

But, I want to believe that this setup is balanced enough that we don't have to have a perfect solve after 2 flips in a 13 player game. So, I am shooting for the plan that can get us more flips before we are making a freaking elo vote.

[Lukewarm]

The plan is already wrong because it involves me being scum.

My plan does not require you to be scum...

[Lukewarm]

Medea's plan does. Mine doesn't

[Lukewarm]

My plan does require manatee to be a back up to cephtd. Which is a gamble. But, like I said. I would rather go bet on that, then to be on anyone's solve atm

[Lukewarm]

do we think flavour claiming could do us some favours in regards to figuring out who i backup?

Why did I not think of this? Maybe

I would like to hear your and cephtd's flavor

[Lukewarm]

I don't see how it could hurt. At worst, it makes no one listen to me (when it looks doubtful that I can get enough people on board at this point anyways)

At best, your flavor is actually just the apprentice/child of the dragons' flavor, and suddenly I have a leg to stand on

[Lukewarm]

well my flavour claim is Anne!

Looking at the wiki, that would imply you are a back up to Dominique

Do we have a Dominique?

[Lukewarm]

Dominique is literally a fucking exorcist.

I think I might be the muffin man.

Manatee, you are my favorite person right now.

(now, we just need the dragons to come shoot me down hard, and my current elation to crash and burn )

[Lukewarm]

flavour seems to imply that a character named Dominique would be the backup considering anne takes over her store. Dominique is a shopkeeper that sells shards :/ thinking thats unwnds role

You have it backwards. Dominique runs the shop where the PLAYER can sell unwanted shards to HER

[Lukewarm]

She takes shard from the player!

And then Anne does too, once she takes over the shop!

[Lukewarm]

Thank you so much manatee. I have REASONS to suspect you are the deshard back up now, and not just blind faith!!!!!


how did I not think to ask for your flavor, when I was ready to bet the entire game on this x.x

[Lukewarm]

Manatee, if you and I are the ones who save this fucking game, omg

[Lukewarm]

Straight from the mother fucking wiki

She also offers to buy any excess shards from Miriam on the supposition that she may be adversely affected if she collects too many for her to handle

This is a desharder my friends.

[Lukewarm]

back to being excited again!! i think this really will put us on the right track and with flips itll be a LOT easier to solve and figure things out. maybe im getting prematurely excited but this is making a lot of sense in my head rn

Same!!

This is a much better mood to walk away form this game for the night!!

[Lukewarm]

well my flavour claim is Anne!

Looking at the wiki, that would imply you are a back up to Dominique

Do we have a Dominique?

Putting this on the current page

@ceph
@std

[Lukewarm]

Btw I'd like to make it clear before I leave that I do not support the "Annie/Anyone hammers Snarky Fishes plan" and that we should stop pretending that's gonna be a thing

TIA

(Outside of my plan)

If we kill our target directly today, and are wrong. We lose on the spot.

If we kill our target using the fishes today, and are wrong, we enter Elo tomorrow.

Can you explain why you would prefer to make today Elo, then to make tomorrow Elo?

[Lukewarm]

Manatee, if you and I are the ones who save this fucking game, omg

I was just getting real amped and excited about solving the puzzle, and the flavor matching up with my plan

[Lukewarm]

Has everyone flavor claimed yet?

-Bell

I actually don't think very many people have flavor claimed.

Just manatee, unwnd, and aa9 at this point.

I am harry

[Lukewarm]

Hi I'm not even skimming really but yes we are Dominique

Still not on board for a plan that makes us lose to basically any scum role under the sun when we could just try winning

Ok bye

Fuck yeah!

At this point, I would say we treat it as confirmed that manatee is the back up to cephtd.

So, our options at this point are

:We feel confident that we can find the exact 2 scum in the playerlist of 11. We don't get extra shots. We have to be 100% right on both shots. If we are wrong on EITHER SHOT then we lose.

:We try and fuck up the scum team's win con. They decided to not play mafia, we say "fuck you, this is a mafia game"
As long as manatee gets ONE shot of her ability off, we are golden. And we are planting a bodyguard and a doc on her.
If they have a roleblocker ( which, we have seen no evidence of after 3 nights worth of night actions) then we lose.


So, the question is, are we more confident that we can look at the player list, and 100% guess the scum team right now in this moment, or are we more confident that they don't have a roleblock since it has not shown up yet to stop anyone's night actions.

[Lukewarm]

We are no longer rolling the dice on her ability. The only thing that makes it fail is a roleblock-esque ability that we have not seen.

[Lukewarm]

I will flip green.

This is just a fact you're going to have to live with. I don't want to be tugged along for 5 days, either decide to kill me or move on.

If you are town, then get on board with my plan.

The alternative right now is that we are killing you. If you are town, we lose the game with the other plan 100% of the time. (If you are scum, both plans kinda sick for you, so ehh)

Live wild and free with me unwnd. Shoot for the stars

[Lukewarm]

We are no longer rolling the dice on her ability. The only thing that makes it fail is a roleblock-esque ability that we have not seen.

So what are you saying we do? You want dragons to die on snarky fishes?

Yes. Dragons die on fishes.

Manatee becomes a desharder, and deshards someone who is a demon (I suggest Annie, but I can be vetoed here. Them both refusing the fishes hammer plan AND them suddenly campaigning for aa9 once me and manatee proved she is a desharder did not help my feelings on their slot )

We kill exclusively the most suspicious humans for the following 2 days.

The scum team has to start killing

[Lukewarm]

Nobody's fucking role is confirmed. That's why I'm tilted because scum can continue to not kill. Broken record moment.

My plan fixes this problem.

Also broken record moment.

[Lukewarm]

Just, side note.

I have a feeling that the scum team is going to very very much not want our plan to go through. So much so, that I would not be surprised to see the scum (non-corrupter) to try and sneak in the hammer on the fishes. So the time between putting them at e-1 and the dragons hammering needs to be tight.

If they manage to get the hammer off, we are still okay because 1 scum would die so we would not be too bad off even if the plan goes sideways there.

[Lukewarm]

@cabd.

Does manatees flavor claim being enough for me to guess the dragons exact flavor name enough for you to believe that manatee is the deshard back up?

[Lukewarm]

Luke, I followed your last plan.
I am tempted to follow this one even though I really think we should slow down and just solve for the last two scum and kill one after the other.

-Bell

Elo is fucking hard when it is 2 scum inside 5 players

We are looking at Elo with 2 scum inside 11 players (well, 10. We don't need to count you guys in the equation)

[Lukewarm]

I agree that we should just vote for a plan at this point, and get a count on who should hammer the fishes.

Me and manatee are for the dragons.

Medea seems to be for unwnd

Annie and spiff appear to be for aa9

Unwnd seems to be for Annie

[Lukewarm]

I agree that we should just vote for a plan at this point, and get a count on who should hammer the fishes.

Me and manatee are for the dragons.

Medea seems to be for unwnd

Annie and spiff appear to be for aa9

Unwnd

and lld/

seems to be for Annie

(Which, btw, the fact that the people voting for the "find the scum today are split on who we should even be going for does not help my confidence that we are gonna be 100% right on the scum team...)

[Lukewarm]

Yes I get that Luke, but there is alignments to solve, you are pushing a plan that delays a loss for town. Without proposing who the last scum are.

This is not exactly true.

If we come up with a scum team solve today, and do the normal plan (and are right) we win on day 6

If we come up with a scum team solve today, and do my plan (and are right) we win on day 6.

If we end with the wrong solve, then we straight lose with the normal plan. But with my plan, we get 2 more shots.

My plan always involves presenting our best solve today, because we need to direct manatee's night action.

[Lukewarm]

Which, by the way, my current solve is (unwnd+Annie)

[Lukewarm]

I feel like we are talking past each other without communicating

[Lukewarm]

I feel like we are talking past each other without communicating

Because your responses to me do not actually make much sense given my own thoughts on the game. In a "you are trying to convince me of things that I already know or talk me out of thoughts that Im not having"

So I don't know if I am wildly failing to express my thoughts or if you are just misunderstanding my points

[Lukewarm]

This is largely because I'm not specifying who I'm talking to. I usually do that a lot.
It's a bad habit.

-Bell

Oh. Or maybe I miss understood who you were talking to

[Lukewarm]

Which, by the way, my current solve is (unwnd+Annie)

Why?

I am currently on my phone. Once I get to a computer I can type it up

[Lukewarm]

You were looking for a scum unwnd game earlier.

viewtopic.php?t=86520

Me and ffery lost to scum unwnd that game

[Lukewarm]

Q. Why can't the dragon hydra be a scum desharder that, when they die, goes to town back up?
It's fairly unique in terms of outcomes, but I could see using their own ability to clear if they went the more conventional route while being punished for going the demonic route if they get caught as a sort of balancer.

-Bell

My plan would cover this possibility

[Lukewarm]

I would at that the opening parts of this game, when be was purposefully changing his play style, felt very different. But his stuff from day 2 and 4 have felt more like that game x x

[Lukewarm]

A

Abigail
Alfred
Category:Animals
Anne
Category:Antagonists

B

Dominique Baldwin

C

Category:Character specific categories
Coachman

D

Category:Demons

F

Category:Female characters

G

Category:Game specific characters
Gebel
Category:Golems

H

Hachi
Harry
Category:Humans

J

Johannes

K

Category:Knights

L

Lindsay

M

Category:Male characters
Category:Merchants
Miriam

N

Category:NPC

P

Category:Playable characters
Category:Protagonists

R

Robert

S

Category:Shardbinders
Category:Species
Category:Supporting cast
Susie

T

Todd

Z

Zangetsu

[Lukewarm]

Sorry Rhea, the wiki has failed me

Looking at the list, I realized it did not have aa9 or pooky's claims either - although it had all of me/Titus/manatee/unwnd/Annie, so I was hopeful.

[Lukewarm]

@lld, I don't know how caught up you are, but I wanted your opinion on my plan.

Manatee flavor claimed, and her character in flavor is an apprentice to Dominique, the person in the game that can take shards away from you. The dragons then claimed to be Dominique -- so, imo, that confirms your earlier theory that she was the deshard back up.

With that in mind, are you interested in going with the desharding plan to stop the alt win con?


The risk : if the scum team has a roleblocker -esque ability, we lose the game (but this is also true that if we kill a townie today, we lose, so, not actually riskier then that plan imo)

The reward: we go from being in almost Elo, to getting +2 shots at finding the scum AND forces the scum team to start killing, so we will actually get info (elim flips and nigh kills) to solve with

[Lukewarm]

I would like to just draw attention to Annie's stances on AA9, in the context of Spiff's case on AA9 and also when me and manatee discovered proper evidence that she was a deshard back up

----

Annie was hard lock town for AA9 since Medea pointed out their old game.

Spiffeh made his case on AA9 being the corrupter in post 4199

Here is every post Annie made about AA9 prior to the flavor claim with manatee

Spoiler:

Hi spiffy, long time listener first time caller

Why does scum-AA9 claim receiving the shards in the first place

I’m chewing on it. I know I saw those parallels to the game Medea shared in her ISO, snd the only way I think scum her would know how to perfectly mirror 7 year old meta is if she somehow remembered it or was catering to it. I suppose there’s the old “well y’all just butt heads” argument, but it’s so similar it’s weird to think about.

I’d been mulling it through since I saw people claiming corrupted too.

Your theory does make sense, I’m just trying to reconcile it with my read.

AA9. (But manatee because I have way more tinfoil thoughts there)

I have a clear on Spiffeh and Medea doesn’t make sense as scum with Pooky.

To be clear, in post 4591, like 400 posts after the spiffeh case, Annie explicitly says that they think that MANATEE is more likely to be scum then AA9

-----

And then they do not mention AA9 for another like 200 posts.

Manatee and I discover the flavor evidence around post 4783

Annie, nearly immediately after this has an appifany that it is just AA9

Spoiler:

He said it’s POE.

I’m leaning towards AA9. I got hit with insomnia and spun out and reread some stuff. I think I want to trust the mouse. I think the novice discussion is a roundabout way to avoid the truth that she was demonized N1, she didn’t claim until after Rhea was outed. I’m going to think some more as the day goes on, but that’s where I’m at. We need to hit the corrupter. She makes the most sense.

It’s bordering the lines of what I can believe to think that she simultaneously knows nothing about the setup but had the awareness to claim receiving shards after Rhea did.

@medea you’re going to need to give me the hard sell. The only other elim I’d be okay with is unwnd.

Help me kill AA9, unwnd.

I’m not doing the desharder plan. We kill the corrupter. It’s our only way forward.

We kill AA9.

I want to kill the corrupter who I think is either aa9 or unwnd while heavily leaning the former.

Ffery what are your thoughts on spiffys Aa9 wall

Aa9 or bust.

The timing of that turn around from "I am just not sure that it can be AA9" to ready to bet the entire game on "AA9 or bust" is suspicious to me.


------

Just, side note, Annie was on and around when me and manatee went on our flavor journey.

Annie makes 4761 just before the discovery, weighing in on my covo with Unwnd. Annie also makes 4788 just after the discovery. And there is radio silence on the luke/manatee convo. He then comes back the next morning, with his reversal on AA9 (moving the conversation past the manatee flavor stuff)

[Lukewarm]

Everyone can see it Luke it’s literally been all I’ve been doing today

You did not mention that you thought it was aa9 until 12 hours ago. I would not say that its what you have been doing all day. And now you are ready to bet the game on it

[Lukewarm]

I'm at dragons and somebody else.

I am tilted at Unwnd and Rhea. Unwnd because grocery store scum. Rhea because I respect their town game enough that I just don't understand how they could be so off the whole game in terms of reads.

-Bell.

I am not sure why you are leaning scum on the dragons, but if that is something that people are considering, realize my plan involves the dragons dying today for it to work.

So, if you are right we kill scum today!
If you are wrong, then my plan is triggered!

[Lukewarm]

What is an assassin's list?

[Lukewarm]

You’ll see in 37 minutes

I will hopefully be asleep in 37 mins. It has been a long day

[Lukewarm]

Unwnd, AA9, HTBD

Lukewarm, ManateeGal, Rhea

Medea the Alien, Dunnstral, Annie Edison

Snarky fishes, Spiffeh, Borkjerfkin.

Scum, town, town

Town town town

Scum town scum

Town town jester

[Lukewarm]

Scum having no power aside from corruptor and BP feels weak

If they were not powering people up, it looks like almost all of the town is vts.

So I don't know that the "let's go for a traditional mafia win" side of the scum team could actually be all that powerful.

The scum team getting a double night in a game full of vts seems pretty strong on its own

Strongman seems about right, with us having 2 protectives

[Lukewarm]

I think that is me, manatee, the fishes, and Dunn on board for the "dragons hammer fishes" plan

(Although the fishes seemed more into it because of scum reading the dragons, but I'll take that anyways )

[Lukewarm]

Also, isn't the corrupter pretty much going to lead the town by the nose until every town human is killed? There remains no evidence that scum can't shard themselves.

-Bell

We do not have to kill exclusively in the humans for my plan. After the gambit with you and the dragons today, it is actually:

-Kill one player who is currently a demon
-Kill one player who is currently a human

We can now vote off anyone without worry of their demon/human status

[Lukewarm]

I'm going out but here's what I have so far-



Left side is the person and the columns are their reads. I'll try to sort out unwnd's thoughts while I'm out and hopefully have the rest of the table tonight.

Mine does not match my answers. You only put yourself as red

[Lukewarm]

Hey, anyone who's around want to explain to me why scum with four shards to give out uninterrupted over two nights decided to give one to Annie N2 instead of N3 when Annie's ability, that they'd said was good enough to be demonized for, could then be used unimpeded N3? As opposed to one shard to Spiffeh each of N2 and N3?

--PA

imo, it makes more sense for the fishes to currently be demonized, and for annie to still be sitting at 1 shard, since Annie asked to be demonized day 1

[Lukewarm]

Hey, anyone who's around want to explain to me why scum with four shards to give out uninterrupted over two nights decided to give one to Annie N2 instead of N3 when Annie's ability, that they'd said was good enough to be demonized for, could then be used unimpeded N3? As opposed to one shard to Spiffeh each of N2 and N3?

--PA

Using corruption on manatee N2 meant they could power up 2 players with 2 shards, and Annie was the only player sitting at one shard.

N3 they corrupted me but there wasn't another 1-shard player to split the 2 shards among?

I mean they could have done the 1-each night on N3 instead, but I dunno. Maybe concerns that town had an active ability to mess with sharding?

Or something like, double shard spiff night 2, and corrupt manatee

Then night 3 corrupt you, and then shard you + manatee.

They had a path to getting the same number of demons without demonizing annie (who claimed to have a good demonized ability)

It is definitely a weird choice

[Lukewarm]

(unless they are scum )

[Lukewarm]

(unless they are scum )

So they decided to claim being demonized and decided to give a town clearing result on Spiffeh because why

-Bell

lld

They can't lie about being demonized in case she targeted them

And lld cleared spiff before annie did.

[Lukewarm]

Spoiler:

"Manatee was human as of night one"
"Dunn was human as of night two"
"Spiffeh was human as of night three"


I feel like that's clearing only for Spiffeh.

WTF, you think scum-mouse isn't demonic by now?

He's closer to clear than I am right now.

Having spiffeh in your scum pool at daystart is extremely shocking to me, even prior to his clear.

Right, I take that as fairly clearing, given I suspect scum wants to demonize themselves ASAP.

But even before that, the way he cased Pooky comes off as incredibly uninformed.

(^^) Medea talking about how clear spiff was from lld's clear, multiple times before (vv) Annie claiming a clear on Spiff

Spoiler:

We’re a one shot cop. We checked the mouse last night.

He is good.

I wanted it originally day 1 to check Medea but then it felt dumb to check Medea once they were tied to Dunn and the VCA after day 2 looked pretty clear wrt Medea and Dunn, and I spent four hours writing this wall about how rereading interactions spiffy seemed super sus and I was about to go all xeno 2 2.0 then Bork had to tell me he’s town snd im bad at this game

No I didn’t crumb it because *gestures everywhere*

[Lukewarm]

I dunno. I don't think this is the slam dunk you seem to think it is.

I never at any point said it was a slam dunk...

[Lukewarm]

I dunno. I don't think this is the slam dunk you seem to think it is.

I never at any point said it was a slam dunk...

No, but it appears that you think it is? I mean you're positing a scum-Annie, with the sharding decisions as the smoking gun.

I responded to medea's post, agreeing that the choice, given the information that I have, seems like a strange choice if annie is town.

You asked me questions, trying to poke holes into why it made sense.

I responded to those.

From my pov, it is just one more thing that lines up with my read.

[Lukewarm]

Like, how many times am I supposed to buy that you've figured it out, only before kicking a stone and looking sad when you're wrong before I realize it's just an act and you're scum trying as hard as you can to play make believe with your own ideas?
-Bell

I'll ask you the same question I asked unwnd...

I made a case that lead to a miselim day 1. Yes.

Does that mean that I should just stop trying to solve the game? Are you not the one who fussed at me when you thought I was giving up?

And you are talking like I have lead the town down the wrong path like a bunch of times, when literally the only decision that I influced from anyone at any point right now is "who out day 1 elim should be"

(And I am pretty sure that you were also scum reading Titus before I said anything about her, AND you saw exactly what I saw about her...)

[Lukewarm]

(And I am pretty sure that you were also scum reading Titus before I said anything about her, AND you saw exactly what I saw about her...)

And it was your slot that encouraged me to make the push in the first place....

(ffery, not you)

[Lukewarm]

Like, how many times am I supposed to buy that you've figured it out, only before kicking a stone and looking sad when you're wrong before I realize it's just an act and you're scum trying as hard as you can to play make believe with your own ideas?
-Bell

I'll ask you the same question I asked unwnd...

I made a case that lead to a miselim day 1. Yes.

Does that mean that I should just stop trying to solve the game? Are you not the one who fussed at me when you thought I was giving up?

And you are talking like I have lead the town down the wrong path like a bunch of times, when literally the only decision that I influced from anyone at any point right now is "who out day 1 elim should be"

(And I am pretty sure that you were also scum reading Titus before I said anything about her, AND you saw exactly what I saw about her...)

I'm not discouraging you from trying to solve the game. I'm disagreeing with your reasons for scumreading Annie. If you're town I'm doing you a disservice if I don't share that thought. If you're scum I'm doing the rest of town a disservice.

I'm not some sort of infinite rubber stamp regardless of my read.

I don't really care that you disagree with my read. (which plenty of other people agree, and I think you are actually in the minority)

But look at the part I quoted from you above. That is not about agreeing or disagreeing.

That is, "you were wrong once, and therefore I think you are scum leading me astray." Which feels like a bad line of thinking unless you except a town player to just roll over if they have a wrong read day 1.


To be clear, Annie is a scum read of mine, but I am NOT so confident in it that I would want to bet the game on it. That is like the entire point of my plan. I am trying to make sure that if we are wrong on our solve today, we actually have some leway. Because killing our top scum read right now, and being wrong is a loss.

[Lukewarm]

He's scumreading you and therefore he's not taking your stances at face value. It has nothing to do with trying to dissuade you from solving

It kind of feels like he is positioning himself such that he is so sure that Annie is town, that anyone who thinks they might be scum must be scum themselves pushing a false narrative.

Well, off the top of my head all of me, Medea, unwnd, and lld have all vocalized that they are definitely not town reading the slot.

It is actually impossible for all 4 of us to be scum.

So, whether his read is right or wrong, he should probably consider that there is at least something there that he is not seeing to make at a minimum of 2 town players entertain the possibility.

[Lukewarm]

He's scumreading you and therefore he's not taking your stances at face value

I am curious, when and why that happened?

I seem to remember being one of his strongest town reads at the start of this day.

[Lukewarm]

I'm questioning your sincerity, not playing the blame game. So your response is off track.

-Bell

What stance do you find insincere?

My push for the deshard plan, my scum reads on unwnd or on Annie?

Or all of the above?

And what makes you think I am being insincere?

Maybe this is a wasted conversation, because you guys are almost certainly town, and you are scum reading the dragons so that lines up with my plan anyways, but I am pretty confused. Like I said earlier, I feel like today has been my most obviously town day phase, yet this is the day that you went from having me in your top 3 town reads to apparently scum reading me, so, confusion.

[Lukewarm]

Your curiosity as to the specific reasons as to why I'm scum reading you has won me over
Not joking.

My answer to those questions is that, basically, I have experience with a sort of flavor oriented hyper-self-believer scum player.
Like Titus in FGO II or me in Jesus christ mafia as an alt way back when. It makes me paranoid and worried when someone fits an archetype. I have to figure out whether they're being sincere in their belief or not. It sounds like Titus was, but I wasn't.

-Bell

I guess I can see what you are saying here?

I am not sure that I have been particularly flavor focused though. I did not even think to ask about the flavor claims, that came from manatee. But, once it was out there, it seems pretty convincing to me. Like, in that game Anne very much is the back up to Dominique lol.

I was much more focused on : there is no way that we would ever be expected to solve the exact scum team on this day phase, when there have been exactly 2 flips, and once I saw a path that could give us some way out of that I have been pushing for it hard.

I actually am not sure why so many people are so against it anyways. Even if I am wrong, I am pretty sure that we are in the same boat as if we just hunt for the right scum team. And absolutely no one giving me a reasonable explanation of how it is better to do it your way sure does not make me feel like changing gears....

[Lukewarm]

I actually am not sure why so many people are so against it anyways. Even if I am wrong, I am pretty sure that we are in the same boat as if we just hunt for the right scum team. And absolutely no one giving me a reasonable explanation of how it is better to do it your way sure does not make me feel like changing gears....

All plans involve finding our best guess for the scum team today, but then the different plans branch on how to go about killing them

------

Plan 1: Vote for the scum team directly this Day phase.

Spoiler:

If we are correct, we have killed scum today. Yay!

If we hit the Corrupter, then tomorrow will be the day before elo to find the other one (we have 1 miss shot)
If we hit the non-corrupter, then tomorrow is ELO. (we have no miss shots)

If we are wrong, we lose. On the spot. They turn 2 people tonight using the corrupter, and then there are 8 demons and 2 scum tomorrow.

------

Plan 2: Try to get our top scum read to hammer the Fishes

Spoiler:

If we are correct, they just refuse to hammer. We then have to vote them out directly. We kill scum today, Yay!

If we hit the Corrupter, then tomorrow will be the day before elo to find the other one. (we have 1 miss shot)
If we hit the non-corrupter, then tomorrow is ELO. (we have 0 miss shots)

If we are wrong, then a townie hammers you, and tomorrow is Elo. 2 scum alive, find the corrupter or lose. If we do this plan, hit a townie today, and then successfully find scum tomorrow, but it is the non-corrupter tomorrow we lose.

Plan 3: Ask the dragons to hammer the Fishes (then killing our top scum reads starting tomorrow)

Spoiler:

If we do this plan, and we are right, we buy ourselves SO FUCKING MUCH Leway. Like, omg, we can miss like 3 times afterwards. And we are getting so much more info to solve with.

If we are wrong, then we still don't lose. It is the same as missing in plan 2: tomorrow is Elo. 2 scum alive, find the corrupter or lose.

-----

My plan has THE BEST upside if it works, hands down. No one is even arguing this, I don't think

But then it does not even have the worst downsides on being wrong (see plan 1)...

And there are still people out there advocating plan 1...



To be real, it feels like A LOT of people are dismissing the plan, because not trying to kill scum today does not "feel right" and trying to vote out the scum does "feel right" without actually looking at the pros and cons of the plans.

[Lukewarm]

Your curiosity as to the specific reasons as to why I'm scum reading you has won me over
Not joking.

My answer to those questions is that, basically, I have experience with a sort of flavor oriented hyper-self-believer scum player.
Like Titus in FGO II or me in Jesus christ mafia as an alt way back when. It makes me paranoid and worried when someone fits an archetype. I have to figure out whether they're being sincere in their belief or not. It sounds like Titus was, but I wasn't.

-Bell

I guess I can see what you are saying here?

I am not sure that I have been particularly flavor focused though. I did not even think to ask about the flavor claims, that came from manatee. But, once it was out there, it seems pretty convincing to me. Like, in that game Anne very much is the back up to Dominique lol.

I was much more focused on : there is no way that we would ever be expected to solve the exact scum team on this day phase, when there have been exactly 2 flips, and once I saw a path that could give us some way out of that I have been pushing for it hard.

I actually am not sure why so many people are so against it anyways. Even if I am wrong, I am pretty sure that we are in the same boat as if we just hunt for the right scum team. And absolutely no one giving me a reasonable explanation of how it is better to do it

your way

sure does not make me feel like changing gears....

What way is "your way"?

See plans 1 and 2 above, and it would depend on the person.

I believe you and medea are on board for plan 2.

I believe annie, lld, and unwnd have all been voting people directly, so plan 1...

[Lukewarm]

The next question as I follow up is whether you're focusing on mechanics in lieu of scum hunting or using it to inflate posts enthusiasm.

And, like. The mechanic thing has been my loudest stance, but I have been scum hunting too.

See me coming out and engaging with the reads on all of AA9, the dragons, Annie, and unwnd this day phase

And then you guys have been town locked for a while, and your self-sacrifice plan is pretty fucking townie as well.

Who have I not even been talking about?

Manatee? I am like, really really on board for manatee being town. Our back and forth last night while simultaneously figuring out her flavor stuff felt SO genuine.

LLD? I am pretty sure she is town. I have been leaning that way for a while. I also don't see scum LLD drawing attention to the possibility that manatee could be a deshard back up. Like ever? The scum are trying to win via shards, and she was pretty responsible for us finding the tools for my plan.

Spiff? Looking at how hard he pushed Pooky, I was leaning towards him being town. Now, with Annie's inno on him he is never scum unless exactly with annie, so not worth even looking at before an Annie flip

Dunn and Medea? Every fiber of my being says that they are scum when I look over their isos from days 1 and 2, but dunn has seemed super town, and I just dont see how the mech could work on scum medea.

[Lukewarm]

Dunn and Medea? Every fiber of my being says that

they

Medea is scum when I look over their isos from days 1 and 2, but dunn has seemed super town, and I just dont see how the mech could work on scum medea.