Mini 2265: Bears with Guns 2: Pandamonium game over

[Vanderscamp]

FIRST

[Vanderscamp]

VOTE: Vanderscamp

Hope I'm not Unbearable

Oh, no!

VOTE: megazumarill

I can bearly stand it

[Vanderscamp]

So Mala is prob town.

I don’t see Mala scum poking me out of the gate.

I think Toog might be in need of a jab here.

VOTE: Toog

Semi serious vote as more votes than probable scum size are in this setup so Toog can’t genuinely believe that statement. Yet Toog doesn’t vote anyone or move the game along.

You think Mala putting an RVS vote on you is something they would actually care enough about to not do as scum?

[Vanderscamp]

Math, do you legit think that making an RVS vote vs not is actually an indication of someone being scum or is this just a policy vote?

[Vanderscamp]

Math, do you legit think that making an RVS vote vs not is actually an indication of someone being scum or is this just a policy vote?

Neither.

It would have been fine if Toog had done just some bear pun and left it alone.

It’s more that Toog said something that resembled content that is logically impossible that pinged me.

Anyone who isn't voting me out the gate didn't get a town PM.

This is what you're referring to, right?

To me this seems like clearly a joke based on their avatar.

[Vanderscamp]

In other words it looks like poorly faked content versus just an RVS vote.

I don’t think Mala intentionally wants attention from me if she’s scum.

It seems not like her.

Granted these are RVS reads but I am confident enough to state them to get the ball rolling somewhere.

What kind of attention do you think Mala would expect to get from you from an RVS vote?

[Vanderscamp]

To me this seems like clearly a joke based on their avatar.

Just Math being Math.

Yeah, in some mini normal we were both in, I remember Math putting forth some weird logic to get the game out of rvs. I'm not reading into it.

Does he do this stuff as both alignments?

[Vanderscamp]

VOTE: Toog

This is the fifth vote on Toog. Bringing someone to L-2 on post 37 without so much as a comment (even just one saying that it's L-2) is not the best look.

You're right, sorry.

VOTE: Momo

This is E-5.

Lol

[Vanderscamp]

In other words it looks like poorly faked content versus just an RVS vote.

I don’t think Mala intentionally wants attention from me if she’s scum.

It seems not like her.

Granted these are RVS reads but I am confident enough to state them to get the ball rolling somewhere.

What kind of attention do you think Mala would expect to get from you from an RVS vote?

It’s a huge risk that I just tunnel her if she doesn’t do it right.

I tend to be very reflexive.

So I don’t see Mala intentionally poking the bear if she is scum so to speak.

Explain how you get an RVS vote "wrong" in a way where it matters if the vote is specifically on you?

[Vanderscamp]

Oh idk I've only played the one game with him, and he was town there. So like, it's at least not wholly scum indicative.

I dislike this entire exchange from 39->41.
It feels disingenuous.
I think there is a scum in Van and Cat.
Probably Van.

If you don’t like the wagon speed then look for scum who agreed (regardless of if you agree with the logic or not).
If anything the people on wagon are more likely to be town as quick hammers this fast rarely happen.

Maybe I'm wrong about what Cat was referring to but I'm pretty sure nothing we were saying was related to the wagon speed, it was about your imo terrible take on toog

[Vanderscamp]

Roden was also pretty snarky with that post.

I have trouble detecting it and could feel it from here without a stethoscope lmao

I agree I liked the Rosen post

[Vanderscamp]

In other words it looks like poorly faked content versus just an RVS vote.

I don’t think Mala intentionally wants attention from me if she’s scum.

It seems not like her.

Granted these are RVS reads but I am confident enough to state them to get the ball rolling somewhere.

What kind of attention do you think Mala would expect to get from you from an RVS vote?

It’s a huge risk that I just tunnel her if she doesn’t do it right.

I tend to be very reflexive.

So I don’t see Mala intentionally poking the bear if she is scum so to speak.

Explain how you get an RVS vote "wrong" in a way where it matters if the vote is specifically on you?

Mala if scum, can make a bad push and get me to tunnel her.

Once I tunnel on someone it’s very difficult for me to switch.

So if she pushes me then she could end up in that tunnel which is bad for scum Mala.

Therefore it’s likely town Mala.

I feel this is getting repetitive. You’re asking the same question different ways.

I understand and generally agree with everything you're saying here, but the question I have and the reason why I'm asking this is because I don't understand how "pushing on you" specifically as an RVS vote could cause what you're talking about.
It's obviously possible that Mala comes in and gives a very scummy RVS vote for some reason, but even then, why would it matter that the vote is on you?

[Vanderscamp]

Oh idk I've only played the one game with him, and he was town there. So like, it's at least not wholly scum indicative.

I dislike this entire exchange from 39->41.
It feels disingenuous.
I think there is a scum in Van and Cat.
Probably Van.

If you don’t like the wagon speed then look for scum who agreed (regardless of if you agree with the logic or not).
If anything the people on wagon are more likely to be town as quick hammers this fast rarely happen.

Maybe I'm wrong about what Cat was referring to but I'm pretty sure nothing we were saying was related to the wagon speed, it was about your imo terrible take on toog

Yeah I think you’re scum if Toog is.

You entirely glossed over my point
If you assume I am being “weird” for whatever reason/alignment you put on there
You’re continuing to focus on me being “weird”
Despite a noticable wagon having picked up.
It’s odd to say the least.

You could also see why others voted Toog? I have already explained it a lot.
So not quite sure how that helps you sort me but I can definitely see shade.

I glossed over your point because I had no clue how anything you were saying was related to what cat and I were talking about.

To answer the point I think you're making, I could not care less about the Toog wagon because it's an RVS wagon.
Does that help?

IIRC there's one toog vote that isn't RVS and I have actually asked you about it.

[Vanderscamp]

And fwiw I am shading you, I think the reads you've given so far have been so bizarre that it's hard to believe a town could believe them.

[Vanderscamp]

In other words it looks like poorly faked content versus just an RVS vote.

I don’t think Mala intentionally wants attention from me if she’s scum.

It seems not like her.

Granted these are RVS reads but I am confident enough to state them to get the ball rolling somewhere.

What kind of attention do you think Mala would expect to get from you from an RVS vote?

It’s a huge risk that I just tunnel her if she doesn’t do it right.

I tend to be very reflexive.

So I don’t see Mala intentionally poking the bear if she is scum so to speak.

Explain how you get an RVS vote "wrong" in a way where it matters if the vote is specifically on you?

Mala if scum, can make a bad push and get me to tunnel her.

Once I tunnel on someone it’s very difficult for me to switch.

So if she pushes me then she could end up in that tunnel which is bad for scum Mala.

Therefore it’s likely town Mala.

I feel this is getting repetitive. You’re asking the same question different ways.

I understand and generally agree with everything you're saying here, but the question I have and the reason why I'm asking this is because I don't understand how "pushing on you" specifically as an RVS vote could cause what you're talking about.
It's obviously possible that Mala comes in and gives a very scummy RVS vote for some reason, but even then, why would it matter that the vote is on you?

And I already explained it’s because of my personality and that I am a tunneler.

You’re really pushing my patience here.

I still don't understand but it's clear this isn't getting anywhere.

[Vanderscamp]

And fwiw I am shading you, I think the reads you've given so far have been so bizarre that it's hard to believe a town could believe them.

Except a good chunk of the game agrees, so it’s not bizarre?

You not understanding something doesn’t make it weird or bizarre.

It only means you don’t understand/agree.

Your single unilateral focus on me is a bit weird.

You're one of the only people this game that's said stuff that I think could be alignment indicative!

It could be the case that everyone else agrees with the logic begin your reads, I seriously doubt it, but in the case that I am wrong about your reads being too bizarre for town I'd rather ask you about it (and other people that have played with you) and figure that out.

[Vanderscamp]

Is anyone voting for Toog voting because of the reasoning in 12? I'd be interested in hearing why

I'm going to take a guess that only Math is serious on me. Everyone else is just there because of RVS Panda Avi shenanigans being funny.

---

Does he do this stuff as both alignments?

Math tries to distract with setup solving as scum. If he's not legit pushing reads and is instead playing like, "if X is true, then Y must be the scum, but if X is not true, it might be Z," then I'd say Math is Mafia. He does a lot of busy work that doesn't actually solve anything in order to look like he's trying.

But if Math is actually pushing reads with reasons why he's pushing those reads, there is a good chance he's town.

Hope that makes sense.

Yep, thanks

[Vanderscamp]

1) I don’t like you adding emotion to posts that did not have any.
2) The post seems fake and I explained why.

The post from Toog was anyone not voting me didn’t have a town role PM.

That list is the people not voting Toog. I admittedly forgot Meg in a hurry and noted that.

Toog said suggesting a team of that many people (which is logically impossible) moves the game along.

The entire post just pinged me as weird.

This is not true btw, you said that Toog wasn't moving the game along, and Toog responded by laughing at the notion of moving the game along 10 posts in.

[Vanderscamp]

Think dw would have moved off toog if scum, liked mala's interactions on page 4.

Think there must have been one scum at least out of the five people on the toog wagon (based on how quick it moved), immediate objective should be sorting there.

I don't like this, this feels extremely lazy.

When you say dwlee would have moved off as scum, do you mean if toog is scum too or with any alignment?

[Vanderscamp]

Is anyone voting for Toog voting because of the reasoning in 12? I'd be interested in hearing why

I voted Toog for claiming Ninja Godfather. Or whatever a "Reverse Miller Polar Bear in a Ninja Suit" is supposed to be.

Why did you think that was vote worthy?

Because I don't think claiming something that ridiculous when getting wagoned is a particularly townie thing to do.

Do you think toog should have been worried about the wagon or dying from it?

This can be an open question to everyone who is analysing the toog wagon votes btw.

What do you think the chances were of toog actually dying there from a collection of RVS votes, and what do you think any scum team (with or without toog) would have thought the chances were of toog dying from that wagon?

[Vanderscamp]

Because I get a strong impression of trying to look like solving but not any impression of solving.

It just feels theatrical almost

I agree

[Vanderscamp]

VOTE: Momo

First serious wagon of the game should be here
Only 3 posts so far (which is NAI) but 1 is an rvs vote, 1 gives lamist vibes, and the other feels like poor logic because it wasn't reasoned out and was just wanting to look solvey.

EBWOP

Not liking this vote from Meg.
Nagl when Jackson Virgo has less posts and just an RVS vote.
So why momo over JV?

Because I am super townie

On a serious note a lot has been happening unexpectedly such as flash flooding in my area and planning my sister moving in with me. I do apologize but I will post when I can.

I have been skimming the game but I will go through once more and post more in depth but Toog seems like town that doesn't know how to towntepp well to me at first glance. Do not have any other reads worthy of being calked out prior to my recatchup

Damn GL with the floods

[Vanderscamp]

VOTE: momo

[Vanderscamp]

I dislike Roden's interaction with toog, I think the line about "town shouldn't need to say that they weren't afraid" was poor, when roden brought up toog being afraid in the first place, and I dislike toog's interaction with Math.
Math's request to write down reads on paper is not something I would ever actually do but I dislike how little toog tried into engage with Math on it when Math seemed to be offering toog a way out of being scumread (and I like this from math because it seems solvey). This would make sense if toog was confident Math was scum but they haven't said this to be the case.

[Vanderscamp]

I don't give in to ridiculous demands.

I think this is fair, but there were other ways to productively interact with Math that you didn't do.

[Vanderscamp]

I don't give in to ridiculous demands.

I think this is fair, but there were other ways to productively interact with Math that you didn't do.

This.
It’s not a ridiculous demand to ask for one logically possible read.

And yes to whoever said that before technically Toog said something that resembled content but it wasn’t logically possible. At work can’t go find that post sorry.

It was this post:

Anyone who isn't voting me out the gate didn't get a town PM.

but I'd argue pretty strongly it wasn't an attempt to resemble content.

[Vanderscamp]

I dislike what Toog is doing on this page

[Vanderscamp]

"Floods are NAI" is a great line

[Vanderscamp]

Sorry I haven't really been talking much I've been busy and aren't able to post much.

toog roden greeting megaz catscratch I'm leaning town

momo's 107 feels like TMI. why are you trying to sort within the wagon unless you know toog is town

I don't necessarily agree with that, especially since I've sorted people off certain wagons I find to be more likely to have scum in them, but I kind of see where you're coming with the thought.

I had the same thought, I think it's a pretty weird take on the toog wagon.

[Vanderscamp]

VOTE: Momo

First serious wagon of the game should be here
Only 3 posts so far (which is NAI) but 1 is an rvs vote, 1 gives lamist vibes, and the other feels like poor logic because it wasn't reasoned out and was just wanting to look solvey.

EBWOP

Not liking this vote from Meg.
Nagl when Jackson Virgo has less posts and just an RVS vote.
So why momo over JV?

I feel like 121 pretty clearly explained why Meg's voting for momo, and why are you going to bat for momo? Do you townread him?

I am going to bat for momo because of my initial townread of momo and the logic for the momo wagon I disagree with.

I think someone not posting reads is a better elim than someone who is.

If we're robots, I agree, but I actively disliked what Momo had to say, the take sounded like the kind of analysis scum feels like they need to provide to seem like they're hunting, but I didn't like the conclusion from it and I didn't get the impression that there was any actual town solving behind it rather than just saying things.
I would rather kill people who I think are posting actively suspicious analysis than people who are posting no analysis.
Why bother looking at analysis at all if we are just going to provide a blanket pass for anyone who is doing it?

[Vanderscamp]

There’s no one being sus though?

So inactive/doesn’t want to contribute is a pretty good elim.
There’s stuff I disagree with but nothing inherently scummy except Toog’s refusal to post a read.

I don’t see that from momo’s post. It just seems like they said they’d look at the Toog wagon start of day and I would do so whatever Toog’s alignment. (To be clear I think Toog is scum).

I disagree on no one being sus!

IMO the wagon on Toog is nothing more than a random collection of meaningless RVS votes and I think it was very weak for Momo to say that solving that should be the immediate objective.

[Vanderscamp]

Vander is who I am talking about, my grammar has deteriorated quite a bit. I just use they when I don’t really know someone’s pronouns (though do correct me if I am using the wrong ones.)

I'm a guy but I won't lose sleep over anyone using the wrong ones.

[Vanderscamp]

Yeah Vander’s posting is better than day start. It’s no longer scummy just disagree with it. If Toog is scum though then I might revisit that.

These are my thoughts on you too! Except probably the reverse for toog's alignment.

[Vanderscamp]

K, if everyone has weighed in on me, I'm ready to be eliminated today.

People's stance on me should be telling enough information to work with going into Day 2.

I'm town reading MegA, Van, and wave. Any of those slots get eliminated Day 2, I'd be a sad panda.

I'd rather kill momo than you today plz

[Vanderscamp]

I like what dwlee and Roden are saying to toog on page 9

[Vanderscamp]

What's your read on momo, by the way?

Momo is in the game?

Is this a troll?

[Vanderscamp]

Oh. That's not how I read it. Cause toog's content is even making an attempt at being game advancing and there's a lot of it compared to small from momo and something is there.

I disagree with that.

How is lolcat advancing the game? Looks like active lurking to me.

Who is lolcat

I'm assuming toog.

[Vanderscamp]

My bad y'all, been active af pretty much everywhere online.

So, there's a wagon on me...

I mean I get it, scum likes to lurk early, but also it's not a real wagon at all?

This is maybe my fourth post in this game, you have literally no reason to town or scum read me lol considering that the first few pages of a game are just RVS.

Think dw would have moved off toog if scum, liked mala's interactions on page 4.

Think there must have been one scum at least out of the five people on the toog wagon (based on how quick it moved), immediate objective should be sorting there.

People saying this is scummy because I'm trying to pretend to "solve" while not saying anything specific are wild.

I acknowledge that I didn't say anything specific. It was page 4 for crying out loud. If anyone claims to have solved a mafia game by page 4, they're full of shit.

I thought it was a good place to start and that's it.

Not everything is a solve.

Responding to the bold:
I'm scumreading you for your analysis post.
Was your analysis RVS?...


No one is claiming you need to have solved the game by page 4 and I don't think anyone has said that as a reason for suspecting you.

[Vanderscamp]

Momo: do you have any thoughts among the five people from the wagon?

Are you still interested in looking there or do you have an updated perspective?

[Vanderscamp]

I like what dwlee and Roden are saying to toog on page 9

what did you like about them

A level of effort in trying to work with someone who is seemingly defeated / not trying that I don't think is necessary as scum

[Vanderscamp]

I really want to kill momo if that's all they had to say.
There was a good amount of content that went into defending themselves but zero game analysis.

[Vanderscamp]

Sorry momo

Will get caught up soon

[Vanderscamp]

I feel like I can just town bin Mala at this point tbh.

Please explain because I kinda wanna scum bin her

Sorry Mala

Kittens are cute but I am scared you’re scum

i'm sorry youre not vibing with me
but i'm town
you'll feel it soon tho

i sprout pretty rainbows

Good luck with getting me dead by endgame. Once I become transparently town it’s impossible for it to happen unless it’s done by scum.

I like mala's confidence in these posts

[Vanderscamp]

Mala and Math, why did you guys hammer momo yesterday without a claim?

To blame it on me, by creating a false narrative that I was a scum counterwagon to

momo

's town wagon. I don't believe that the circumstances surrounding voting out

momo

were a miscalculation.

Malakittens

knew what they were doing when they made 336. Their lies and fake confidence are shown in clear contradictions between 334 and 338. It's just making up stuff and strategy on the go, and the effect is detrimental to town as resulted by today's flip.

VOTE: Malakittens

MathBlade

should also explain himself.

I don't understand how you can receive the reaction from Mala that you did during eod and still come to the conclusion that their confidence is fake.

[Vanderscamp]

I strongly dislike wavemode not giving any reasoning at all for that readlist

[Vanderscamp]

This being theater is unlikely to be honest, so its either TVT (most likely here to me), or SVT, but definitely not SVS here.

Strongly agree with not svs, I don't really buy what Greeting is saying about it though.

My take on the entire thing:
I liked Mala's obvious confidence and Greeting disliked it, I obviously don't agree with Greeting but I don't think it's unreasonable to disagree.
I'll actually somewhat rescind my read of liking it based on what Mala has said since, which is that the stuff I was reading them as town for could just be NAI and is purely based on OOG stuff.

Greeting then accused Mala of faking confidence and Mala reacted pretty strongly, I don't actually think Greeting was trying to bring mental health stuff into the game but Mala took it that way, there also looks like there's some history there.

This is all somewhat reasonable up until the point where Greeting gets that reaction and then takes the line of "from this reaction it looks as though I was right about you faking confidence," when I feel like even in the world where Mala was scum and the confidence was not actually town indicative, Mala was VERY obviously being genuine about not faking it.
That particular stance from Greeting seems extremely disingenuous.

[Vanderscamp]

Anyone TR Jackson?

No

[Vanderscamp]

I strongly dislike wavemode not giving any reasoning at all for that readlist

Why? Not explaining reads isn't necessarily scummy.

I dislike the number of reads that wave gave. If it had been a small number or like a single unexplained read on someone I don't think I would have minded that much, but I disliked a comprehensive list that came with nothing else.
It felt like there was a disconnect between a list that implies a strong awareness of what's happening in the game, versus a level of involvement/explanation that implies little or no awareness.

[Vanderscamp]

I think dwlee is town fwiw

[Vanderscamp]

On the road atm but will get caught up soonish

[Vanderscamp]

I was thinking of Vanderscamp and wavemode.
Both reek of scum utilizing the momentum, but wavemodes seems less likely to come from town VOTE: Wavemode

I think I was the first person to call out momo, not that that's a good thing

[Vanderscamp]

Basically this-

Town

Math
Mala
MegA, Vander
Jackson, Strange, Toog, wave -- the idk tier
dwlee, Greeting

Scum

Having no scum reads at this point in the game is suspect

I thought the same thing too, pretty sure the scum at the bottom was to indicate the ranking

[Vanderscamp]

I strongly dislike wavemode not giving any reasoning at all for that readlist

I dislike the number of reads that wave gave. If it had been a small number or like a single unexplained read on someone I don't think I would have minded that much, but I disliked a comprehensive list that came with nothing else.
It felt like there was a disconnect between a list that implies a strong awareness of what's happening in the game, versus a level of involvement/explanation that implies little or no awareness.

huh. really? the number of them?

if you'd said something like "I don't like the lack of transparency" I'd think, well ok I can see what you're saying, it's just a bad read

but the number? lol so just for my reference, in the future if I'm writing a reads post with no justifications added, what quantity of names is your limit? 6, 7? but 8+ names then the post is bad? where's the cutoff lol. this logic is weird

in any case, you've probably never played with me but I always drop a full list at some point, usually pretty early on. it's just how I play. even if on the surface you think I have "little to no awareness" of what's happening (in fact I often feel like I'm the only person actually reading the damn game...)

If you always drop a full list then my read doesn't mean as much.

It is a lack of transparency that I didn't like, more specifically evidence of thought process, but the fact that it was a full list and not one or two reads made me dislike it more.

[Vanderscamp]

I town read MegA from Day 1. JV is towning it up today. I know I'm town.

Wagon seems fine to me.

How are you TRing MegA?
Their recent contributions have been terrible

[Vanderscamp]

VOTE: MegA

[Vanderscamp]

Your recent contributions just seem like scum filler
The only thing I agree with is not getting much from the recent back and forth.

[Vanderscamp]

Your recent contributions just seem like scum filler
The only thing I agree with is not getting much from the recent back and forth.

I don't think this point is especially towny to make though

[Vanderscamp]

Also, re JV, I would not save there because the more chances we get to eliminate scum, the higher odds of winning we have.
To advocate JV not dying over dying he'd have to be someone we'd be happy never killing this game which I'm nowhere near.

[Vanderscamp]

Toog

, do you think Math's claim is real even if they are scum?

I don't think that would be likely, but I also don't think math is scum.
If they are they'd probably have some kind of vig kill that is similar but not exactly what math is describing