Mini 731 Speed Dating Smalltown: Over!

[hohum]

BSG: I'm getting a town vibe from Tan in our private convos.

I'm surprised this didn't get more attention.

Also, the page+ argument between farside and emp gives me a headache, but my meta on farside is that she likes to argue, so null tell on her.

My meta on Empking is different, combined with things like

Neko: What is the case against you?

and keeping at farside the way he did makes me think he's trying to look busy. I want to

FoS empking

immediately.

Other than that I still need to do a little more reading and attempt insert myself into the conversation. More to follow.

[hohum]

You think asking important questions and trying to get the most suspicious person lynched, is trying to look busy?

I'll answer your question in two parts, because it is two questions disguised as one.

You think asking important questions

and trying to get the most suspicious person lynched, is trying to look busy?

No, I don't think that's trying to look busy. I think that's actually being busy.

You think asking important questions and

trying to get the most suspicious person lynched

, is trying to look busy?

That's the worst thing you could possibly be doing, and that is busy work. It makes you sound like you're indifferent to your lynch target.

[hohum]

You think I was indifferent to getting Farside lynched?

I'm saying you need to word it differently. Regardless of whether or not your case on her was valid, your wording as of right now makes it sound as if you were trying to take the easy way out by pushing for a quick lynch.

[hohum]

Quotes please.

Seriously, either you need to get some sleep or I do. You

REALLY

don't understand what I just said 3 posts ago?

You think asking important questions and

trying to get the most suspicious person lynched

, is trying to look busy?

That's the worst thing you could possibly be doing, and that is busy work. It makes you sound like you're indifferent to your lynch target.

[hohum]

That's your quote not mine. I want you to quote me saying I want a quick lynch or trying to quick lynch.

You didn't say it, you implied it in a rather indirect way. If you had come out and said it blankly I would have simply voted for you because that would have been justification enough. As it is, you're being super defensive and the last 5 or 7 posts or so between us is a pointless waste of space.

Back off.

[hohum]

Stop being hostile.

Now do you have a quote of mine or is the "trying to get a QL" a work of fiction?[/quote]

Accusing me of being hostile? Pot: Meet kettle.

Keep after me like that, because clearly my lack of a vote on you is cause for you to continue to drill the subject into the ground. I've already attempted to explain my statement to you and I'm truly sorry that you just don't get it.

If you're going to continue to try and pick a fight with me I might as well give you a reason.

Vote: Empking

[hohum]

Ho hum. (pun intended.)

I don't see the point in the quote you're pointing at, either, hohum. I see what you're trying to say, but to say that it's fabricated is an understatement.

Let me make this clear: you think that simply because Empking expressed an intent to lynch farside, he was going for a

quick

lynch? I don't see the correlation between conviction and speed, like you're implying.

I only pointed something out. in that he said that he was trying to get the most suspicious person lynched. This is a poor choice of words on his part because without context it almost sounds like he's saying he's going for an easy lynch.

He's the one who linked the conversation to the farside wagon in post 533:

u think I was indifferent to getting Farside lynched?

The only mention I've ever made of farside so far is the argument they had a few pages ago. What did I say about that? Simply that it gave me a headache. I made no other comments, especially about what they were arguing about because I skipped over most of it. I didn't even know he was trying to push her wagon until he pointed it out to me a few posts later.

The natural flow of my conversation (just to highlight the point I was trying to make) is posts 532, 534 and I attempted to clarify it again in 539.

I really don't care what he said anymore, it would be weak justification to hold my vote on him anyways.

What I care about is the fact that he's gone COMPLETELY off the rails over something so moot. All he's really been doing over the last half dozen pages or so is picking fights. He isn't helping us by being overly defensive and throwing temper tantrums, he's only hurting us. That is my justification for my vote.

[hohum]

Policy lynching is *badstuff*. I agree, he has been ridiculously unhelpful this game. But I refuse to lynch the tracker at any rate, and I refuse to lynch a player simply because they are unhelpful - that's not scumhunting, that's just lynching based on personality. Personality is meta, it's context, and you have to take it into account whenever you're looking at someone's play.

I disagree wholeheartedly. This kind of thinking allows people like empking to continue to fly under the radar, over and over again. I'm surprised he doesn't get quicklynched in more games. Besides, I can go dig up games I've been in where more often than not the ones who incite the most bickering flip scum.

If your play style involves bombarding the thread with useless, petty bickering and over-defensive self-righteous rhetoric , it actually is harmful to the town whether he flips scum or not. Anything detrimental to the town needs to go -- and the earlier it goes the better our chances of winning.

If you're still not convinced I'll go dig those metas up I mentioned above. If you're still not convinced after that, then well I guess we're just at an impass; however until a better lynch target presents itself for D1 (and I doubt it will), I'm keeping my vote right where it is.

[hohum]

But I refuse to lynch the tracker at any rate

One more important point here: This is a game where role is not indicative of alignment. Tracker or not, if he's scum (obvscum), then it isn't going to do us any good as a town to keep him alive.

[hohum]

Thanks Shanba for giving me some clarity.

Unvote

[hohum]

Though OP is starting to look like someone we should consider, as he seems to be the only one really pushing the whole lynch emp today thing.

I was one of the first people who started pushing the Emp wagon if not the first; however I'm on the fence about the whole "don't lynch his role" argument.

I think he's a better D1 lynch target than Neko.

I need to go back through the thread and reread the arguments for and against lynching him based on a power role and see if I can draw my own conclusion.

[hohum]

After this comment I really want neko lynched. If he's scum, hohum is probably one as well.

I fail to see how you can draw this conclusion based on what I said. I didn't say he wasn't a lynch target, and I'm not defending his actions. I'm saying that empking is a FAR BETTER lynch target.

[hohum]

There still seems to be two distinct camps here

1) Lynch based on role
2) Lynch based on perceived alignment.

I don't know what the correct answer is but the more I think about it the more I realize one side won't be able to convince the other, and we're going tie ourselves up into knots trying. Game mechanics aside, it's anti-town to not lynch based on alignment.

I don't think Xtom would be self-voting if he were scum. In my mind that confirms his alignment.

FoS: shanba

until someone can convince me otherwise.

Vote Empking

still our best lynch target for the day.

[hohum]

@Shanba:

I have been reading your posts and I understand where you're coming from, so please feel free to offer up alternative lynch targets if you don't want to lynch his role. If you "refuse to lynch based on role" surely you find someone else equally as scummy as empking who has a lesser role we can lynch.

Self votes are usually scummy, but in context I think xtom thinks he's simply doing the right thing. I really don't like the knee-jerk reaction from you.

[hohum]

Oh. I didn't realize that was the case on him. Fair enough; it's still not better than a neko lynch, or a hohum one, because of the leaked connections from hohum.

Leaked connections? Please explain.

[hohum]

hohum, why single out shanba as somebody who is wanting to lynch based on roles and not xtoxm or others?

OP, I very much agree with you, but please indulge us with an idea of who you think that person might be.

Only because he's really the first person who got me thinking about the game mechanics.

[hohum]

@mod: it's only a three way because you've miscounted emp's vote

[hohum]

you are a double voter today, hohum.

That's right. Sorry.

[hohum]

This game is going to grind to a halt, methinks.

@Mod: what does all this V/LA do for our deadlines?

Nothing, deadline is Monday morning, exact time linked from Post 1.

[hohum]

I really think Xtoxm is scum at this point. If I needed to pick between Neko and Xtoxm. Xtoxm hasn't done anything remotely town in my book.
I want those who are saying they think he is town tell me what he has done that you believe he is town. And why Neko is scum.

I'm not necessarily saying he looks pro town. What he's been doing really isn't anti-town either though. I'm saying I'm just NOT on board with an Xtoxm lynch today, because there are BETTER lynch targets.

I can understand lynching someone not contributing anything useful if we're butting up against a deadline and there's not enough suspicion to lynch anyone else, but that is not the case here.

[hohum]

I've got an idea. I'll hide behind Neko tonight.

This removes me as a suspect, stops me being a mislynch, and means we can lynch farside-scum today.

You're not helping those of us who actually believe you're just screwing things up.

[hohum]

What is wrong with that? If I hide behind Neko, I die, yes?

If you want to quit so badly why don't you just ask to be replaced? Jesus.

[hohum]

I tried to block rotation last night, but it seems it didn't go through. Now either I sent it too soon (I sent it before post 701 had been posted) or farside blocked me. I sent a pm to shaft.ed asking for clarification on whether my choice had been accepted as valid.

It isn't going to matter anymore anyways since the role switcher is dead now. We're stuck with the roles we have for the duration of the game. Mine is a useless role.

[hohum]

Ahaha. You talk like there had been a concensus yesterday. In reality we didn't really discuss whether I should use it or not, so I used my own judgement. And

I didn't (don't) really trust hohum with such a swingy role like the role switching blocker.

This proves you're not paying attention to the game.

"Didn't trust" -- I was the double voter yesterday
"Don't trust" -- You don't trust me with a worthless role? The role switcher is DEAD, so my role is quite meaningless at this point.

Vote; Korts

for thinking he can coast through the game.

[hohum]

Oh clearly the "only" move she could've done. Saying

afterwards

that she did good in blocking me is fine, but why did she block me in the first place? "I didn't trust you" is as vague as it gets, and if she really thought emp is scum why not block him?

Empking wasn't really scummy IMO, compared to OP and hohum and neko; I didn't want hohum to have the role switching blocker because he was the top of my scumlist.

hohum, didn't and don't refer to the same role. I didn't and don't trust you with the role switching blocker; I didn't mean the double voting. Also, why would your role be worthless? And hohum, seriously? Coasting through? Back this up with something, lest you look like you're pulling shit out your ass.

Again, not paying attention to what is ACTUALLY going on here -- then you would have realized I was saying my role was worthless because I was under the assumption that without the role switcher there was no way to switch roles. Someone as recently as this page had to correct that assumption for me. I didn't realize the role switcher was the difference between randomization and choice.

Didn't is past tense. Don't is present tense. How could you possibly be referring to the same role?

Again, not paying attention to what is ACTUALLY going on here

That's what I mean by coasting.

[hohum]

So we went once-off with the rotation? Okay, I see how and why you knew that now.

FYI I'm not intentionally pulling things out of my ass to make you look scummy Not everyone who mentions you is doing the same.

Unvote

Vote: Empking

I reiterate my reasoning for the D1 vote and his probable continued uncooperative behavior.

[hohum]

Mod: I that just flavour?

Flavor text has no bearing on this game. Kill method may or may not be anchored to a particular player.

Thank you.

I agree with MafiaSSK. Everyone who hasn't claimed needs to claim what they did last night.

I was the double voter, thus had no night action.

[hohum]

OK, you got a result PM saying I didn't do anything, yet OP claims to have jailkeeped ya. I dunno about the rest of you guys, but I think I see a conflict of claims here.

Unvote

I'm gonna need to think about about this some, but today's vote has to be one of empking or OP from what I can tell.

No result usually encompasses being blocked as well as targetting someone without a night action. Otherwise it'd be all to clear who was blocked and who wasn't.

But Korts, I assume you were told in your PM that you were blocked, correct? Maybe not in the exact phrase of course, but via flavor you would have gotten the idea you were blocked in your PM. Most games I have been in on other forums usually have a flavorful way of saying you were blocked.

Why would he have gotten a PM? Did you get one after you submitted your night action? Who did you protect and why?

[hohum]

never mind, stupid question.

[hohum]

last half of my question still stands though. Who did you protect last night and why?

[hohum]

I didn't get any PM, of being blocked or otherwise. farside's post 736 doesn't make sense to me, although I'm a bit pissed. Can you clarify that? For now it seems that you're trying to have the town believe that you blocked me because you knew beforehand that I would use my power?

It sounds to me like she had an intuition based off of your read which was confirmed by your questioning why your night action was never processed.

[hohum]

EBWODP:

Also hohum, as I said in my last post, Most other forum games I have been in, you usually get some sort of PM indicating that you were blocked. So let's just assume for a second that Korts is telling the truth and that he did not receive a PM saying he was blocked. Why did empking get a PM saying I didn't take an action. Wouldn't it stand to reason that emp, being an info role, would not have received said PM at all then?

8. Tanarin-Doctor

[hohum]

EBWOP: Missed the right quote. Fixed below:

You may want to check what I was last night, hohum. I was the mason with SSK. How can I protect someone when I was not the doctor last night. If you want to know who the doc protected last night, ask Oman.

8. Tanarin-Doctor

[hohum]

you're right

[hohum]

Most everyone at the start of the discussion said no to you using it. You stated yourself you would use it based on what everyone wanted. That was a lie.

You say it yourself; it was at the

start

of discussion. If people had come to this conclusion after a general idea of suspicions had formed, I would've gone with it, but we didn't discuss whether I should use my role or not after the day's top suspect(s) had been established, so I used my own judgement. And my own judgement was that hohum couldn't be trusted with the role switching blocker while empking wasn't suspicious enough not to keep the tracker.

I didn't have the role switching blocker yesterday. I have it today. Yesterday I was the double voter.

[hohum]

Yes. And that's exactly the reason why I wanted to block rotation, so you wouldn't have this role (role switching blocker) today, either.

Why exactly am I the target of your scrutiny? I have no intention of using my power without town consensus. Unlike what happened yesterday.

[hohum]

I see, but the issue at hand is that you seem to have acted unilaterally, without consensus. You would also need to prove a case against one of the three of us (Neko, OP or myself) in order to justify the action of taking the matter into your own hands.

If you prove a case against Neko or OP you also need to worry about how to link me to either of them. I'm curious as to what connections you saw yesterday, especially if as you put it the connections came from "both sides" (implying that I was also guilty of either buddying up to or distancing myself from either player) as you state.

[hohum]

Shanba didn't target anyone, as Shanba was the sensor last night. No one targeted me, though.

This Korts thing is all so much hot air. I really don't like the mysterious evaporating wagon on him.

FoS: Tanarin, hohum.

That is just... ugh. I understand farside's reasoning, and I don't think it's a bad thing to be pushing, but hohum jumps on with a weakass reason and then backs down in a massively scummy manner. Tanarin's vote also strikes me the wrong way, but it's not as bad as hohum.

Even after Xtoxm is dead, people are massively mischaracterising the case against him... it was never, from my perspective, about lurking.

How was my back down scummy? Someone pointed out the weakness in my reasoning, and made me understand why it was incorrect. I wasn't going to hold on to such weak reasoning to justify a vote.

[hohum]

haven't you ever been given pause for reconsideration in a game before?

[hohum]

Well the last person to give up info is Oman. Tell us who he protected.
Shanba are you telling me you think Korts reasons for trying to block a change is valid after he was the one to discuss agreeing with the town from the get go?

I tihnk it's valid reasoning, I never questioned your vote. I questioned the other two.

I also think it's pretty dull and uninteresting, unlikely to catch scum and unlikely to lead to productive discussion.

Shanba didn't target anyone, as Shanba was the sensor last night. No one targeted me, though.

This Korts thing is all so much hot air. I really don't like the mysterious evaporating wagon on him.

FoS: Tanarin, hohum.

That is just... ugh. I understand farside's reasoning, and I don't think it's a bad thing to be pushing, but hohum jumps on with a weakass reason and then backs down in a massively scummy manner. Tanarin's vote also strikes me the wrong way, but it's not as bad as hohum.

Even after Xtoxm is dead, people are massively mischaracterising the case against him... it was never, from my perspective, about lurking.

How was my back down scummy? Someone pointed out the weakness in my reasoning, and made me understand why it was incorrect. I wasn't going to hold on to such weak reasoning to justify a vote.

My problem is not really with the unvote itself... it's what it shows. You admit that it is weak reasoning. To be brutally honest, I cannot see how anyone could have thought it would be strong reasoning. Furthermore, you had been going hammer and tongs after EmpKing. Why would you cahnge your position on such a bizarre basis? Yet there were other reasons for voting Korts available at the time, notably, the stuff farside was pushing, the fact that he was blocked on a night with no kill... by unvoting, you show that these did not influence your decision, and so it was

just

the weak reasoning you had brought up that you were using. However, the push against Korts was still there! There was the basis of a wagon against Korts. It was only when you were called on your bullshit, there, that you stopped pushing the wagon.

A combination of the early momentum against Korts and the exposure it gave of your weak reasoning was what made me characterise your unvote as scummy.

Tanarin: meh, Ok. More interested in grilling hohum anyway. Might come back to this later, but I doubt it.

I haven't really changed my position. I'm still very supportive of an Empking lynch, but I'm not going to sit here and soapbox about the issue if the rest of the town isn't on board with me. If the town is going to give him a free pass then I'm not going to yell and scream about it. It isn't going to do me any good and it's only going to add more noise to the discussion. I'm sick of being the one standing here screaming that empking is obvscum.

I have a right to change my mind, on korts too. I've already made a series of mistakes relating to the mechanics of this game and I'm trying to keep an open mind.

[hohum]

Me or Farside?

I really approve of lying if it favours the town, yeah its a hard choice to make, but we have to give people some reign.

QFT. I just learned this lesson the hard way.

[hohum]

been a busy weekend. Will get a post up by tomorrow.

Still happy with my vote BTW>

[hohum]

I really think Emp is town and Farside is scum pushing for an easy wagon right now.

No an easy wagon is voting for you as most feel you are not playing and typically should be voted out day 1 for being that type of player.

He's not the only person in this game that should have been voted out D1. I'm still surprised Empking is being allowed to get away with coasting for this long as well.

[hohum]

I do find it entertaining when I see MafiaSSK saying I'm looking for an easy wagon in empking but after that he votes OP on little to nothing

Tan and I did some talking Day 1 about OP. Sorry I forgot I hadn't posted anything in-thread about it

I don't understand what you're saying here. You were daytalking with someone about an ongoing game, outside of the game thread?

[hohum]

I do find it entertaining when I see MafiaSSK saying I'm looking for an easy wagon in empking but after that he votes OP on little to nothing

Tan and I did some talking Day 1 about OP. Sorry I forgot I hadn't posted anything in-thread about it

I don't understand what you're saying here. You were daytalking with someone about an ongoing game, outside of the game thread?

Do you pay any attention to this game's mechanics?

Anytime mason. Got it.

[hohum]

Sooo. I see MafiaSSK is still not lynched...

Neither is empking.

[hohum]

I don't know who AtE is, sorry.

Also, I'm with Shanba on the "Empking>SSK"

Then why aren't you voting empking?