Mini #764: Notre Dame Mafia, Game Over

[Kinetic]

There are so many people that need voting out. AHHHHH, I can't decide!

vote Kinetic

If you're scum, the game is already lost.

Not only am I not scum, I've already cleared a player as not scum. I'm THAT good.

[Kinetic]

I was his scumbuddy in a game and nom'ed him for a scummy for best scum and he won. So yes, I'd say he's good at being scum, though I don't see any way he can fakeclaim his way to victory in this game.

Also, I wouldn't worry too much about replacements. That newbie game was probably the worst in terms of needing replacements (three people and a mod day one) I've ever seen.

Although to be fair, that was for Best Replacement, and I also won the Mafia Catcher award for best town of the year... Not to toot my own horn.

[Kinetic]

By process of elimination,

Vote:ABR

. diescumdie

[Kinetic]

There are so many people that need voting out. AHHHHH, I can't decide!

vote Kinetic

If you're scum, the game is already lost.

Not only am I not scum, I've already cleared a player as not scum. I'm THAT good.

Ehhhh, I dont know. This doesn't sound very convincing.

Serious though, I think I might know what you're talking about, but I believe it would require a massclaim of cards, yes? Not sure if that is a good idea right now.

Ummm no. I've cleared a player already. I'd say its approximately 90% chance this player is town.

[Kinetic]

unvote, vote ABR

Serious vote. Will explain later.

Also, if you're town, you will notice that there's extra lines at the end of your role PM than the one posted. Hopefully my telling you this convinces you I cannot possibly be scum, so please at least give the massclaim idea thought.

I think we should massclaim cards. There's good reason for this, but I won't explain unless we decide to do this and then after we do it. Of course there is the argument that scum knows what everyone has, but after two nights, it won't matter anyway. I think the knowledge town gains from doing this can catch at least one scum immediately. Please at least consider it before you shoot it down.

I've seriously thought about this already. However I think you might be mistaken on a few things. I'm not going to out them exactly yet, but it depends on the course you're planning on working here...

Also, consider this: Depending on where they are on the player list, scum may already know about 50-60% of the cards in play, maybe more if they're smart.

[Kinetic]

Actually, did the math, the max the scum can know in play right now is 50% of the cards, assuming perfect distribution, which is possible. Either way they know 40-50% of the cards currently in play.

[Kinetic]

Further elaboration. As long as the mafia didn't plan for a massclaim (unlikely as it's rarely done for who knows what reason) and they aren't all next to each other on the player list, I think my plan will work. They can't lie about their choices or we will know (unless they're all next to each other). I've probably said too much, sorry I can't elaborate any further right now.

Please don't ask me to clarify either, if you are skeptical just say so and we can procede with normal scumhunting.

I wasn't asking you to clarify, I already deduced this possibility on my own. Also, I've deduced a few other things which I'm also keeping quiet for now. Put me on the tentative

for

at this time if you're making a list.

[Kinetic]

Actually, did the math, the max the scum can know in play right now is 50% of the cards, assuming perfect distribution, which is possible. Either way they know 40-50% of the cards currently in play.

My plan doesn't require them knowing which cards are in play, if that has any bearing on whether you're willing to give it a shot or not.

I didn't think it did, I was merely pointing out that a mass claim will help town a lot more than scum since town will learn about approximately 80% more information while scum will only learn 50-60% more information.

[Kinetic]

can you explain your maths on the percentage of cards the mafia might know Kinetic

At this point I think a mass-claim's a decent idea.

There's 36 cards total (12 players, 3 cards each)
If scum were ideally spaced on the playerlist (ie 1, 4, 8) then they would know the original three cards they were given, plus the two passed to them, plus the one passed to them, for a total of six cards known per scum, times three scum, is 18 cards. At most 50% of the cards.

Exactly. While each player can know at most 6 of the cards in player, which is approximately 22% of the cards in play.

[Kinetic]

can you explain your maths on the percentage of cards the mafia might know Kinetic

At this point I think a mass-claim's a decent idea.

There's 36 cards total (12 players, 3 cards each)
If scum were ideally spaced on the playerlist (ie 1, 4, 8) then they would know the original three cards they were given, plus the two passed to them, plus the one passed to them, for a total of six cards known per scum, times three scum, is 18 cards. At most 50% of the cards.

Exactly. While each player can know at most 6 of the cards in player, which is approximately 22% of the cards in play.

Err, sorry, its closer to 17%, which added up is approximately 82% of the cards are unknown to each townie. Did the math earlier and was just trying to remember off the top of my head.

[Kinetic]

I'm pretty sure that each player knows the cards they have, plus one card the person after them has, plus two cards one of which the person after them has and the other which the person after the person after them has, but they don't know which.

So really, they have less than a 50% knowledge of who has what card.

Your point is noted though, collectively they do have more knowledge than any one townie so a mass-claim would be good to counter-act that and catch lying scum.

They don't need to know exacts. Its a puzzle, things will fall into place . If things don't then someone is lying. And Liars are scum.

What format should the claim be in?

I suggest, you tell what 3 cards you drew first, which one you kept and the two you passed. The two cards you got from the next person, which one you picked and which one you passed, and your last card.

[Kinetic]

I'm pretty sure that each player knows the cards they have, plus one card the person after them has, plus two cards one of which the person after them has and the other which the person after the person after them has, but they don't know which.

So really, they have less than a 50% knowledge of who has what card.

Your point is noted though, collectively they do have more knowledge than any one townie so a mass-claim would be good to counter-act that and catch lying scum.

They don't need to know exacts. Its a puzzle, things will fall into place . If things don't then someone is lying. And Liars are scum.

What format should the claim be in?

I suggest, you tell what 3 cards you drew first, which one you kept and the two you passed. The two cards you got from the next person, which one you picked and which one you passed, and your last card.

Plus, I said they know 50% of the cards in play, not who has them.

[Kinetic]

The thing is, I'm not sure how this is going to help us catch scum. They have no reason to lie about what cards they have. I'm still for it, that way town has more info, but it's not gonna bring us any closer to catching scum.

That format of claiming sounds fine.

It will, I'm not sure what charter's plan is, but my own sees it a way to catch scum with it. Multiple, in fact.

[Kinetic]

You sir are an idiot.

[Kinetic]

I'm in class posting by iPhone. Suffice to say I cannot explain in depth. However, you are still an idiot.

[Kinetic]

Nothing is 100%. You spelling shit out doesn't help. Scum cannot communicate right now and thus cannot coordinate. Stop helping scum.

[Kinetic]

If you are town, for the love of god STOP FUCKING POSTING YOU IDIOT.

[Kinetic]

I took Plague First, 1/4th NK Second, and Rat third. Discuss.

[Kinetic]

As someone who supported a massclaim, thats a pretty scummy set of cards .

Why did you take the plague?

It's an AMAZINGLY scummy set of cards, looking at it in the stupid way that Kast has.

First, I wanted a mass claim because I knew most of the town might not realize the important of some cards.

Such as: If you pass a 1/4 NK, you are a COMPLETE AND UTTER ANTI-TOWN IDIOT. Phew. Got that off my chest. Scum can only get a total of 3 1/4s from their own draw. Thus in order for them to NEVER get an additional NK from those cards all town has to do is choose cards defensively first. I was passed the 1/4th NK (and the Rat), two AMAZING scum cards, and because of that I feel the person passing them to me (KidIcarus) is most likely town because of it.

I chose the 1/4th kill so I could burn it and scum cannot use it.

I chose plague for the same reason. I drew Plague, Mimic and Apothacary. I could have taken Apoth, used it on myself, and been immune to plague all game. Instead, I took the plague and made sure no one else could use it.

My second set was Mimic/ 1/4th NK. Seriously, I could have pulled a Plague/Mimic combo off the first two night phases if I was scum. I chose the NK to both prevent scum from getting it (in case the person after me was scum) and to burn it.

My third card was Rat. Which, is worst than 1/4th NK, and will most likely be my discarded card.

I supported mass claim because I wanted to look at exactly what people drew and I wanted them to explain WHY they drew such cards. The fact is Kast FUCKED a lot of that up by explaining PERFECT SCUM STRATEGY to the scum and the town. I wanted to scum hunt. I knew everything he stated already, but I was keeping it to myself so that I could see if anyone slipped and help use that to determine their alignment.

Was it full-proof, absolutely going to catch every scum. No, I never said it was.

Could it have? Yes.

Will it now? No.

Also, the main reason I wanted mass claim was so that people were forced to stick with the claim in the mid-late game when people were drawing the last of their cards. If no one claimed their plague and all of a sudden 3 plague victims died, that would be quite suspicious.

The fact remains, Kast completely blew it. Completely.

He did EXACTLY what scum should do, and he warned his scum buddies to what might happen.

I still want to go forth with the Mass Claim so that I can tack people to their claims for later, but I doubt it will catch any scum now. Once that is done, I plan I pushing for Kast's lynch.

He is either scum or an incredibly idiotic townie. Either way, I don't mind lynching him to find out which at this point.

[Kinetic]

Considering I am after you, I can confirm you are not lying about the cards you passed.

@Kinetic, what do you think of this -

It will allow scum to kill dangerous investigative roles and plan around protections.

Kast seems to be making a valid point here.

Based on perfect card drawing, the cop cards are virtually useless and are extremely low on the totem poll for any townie to grab. It sucks, but that is the way of it.

As for the protections, unless you decided we also must claim who we are protecting, it isn't going to do that. Since this isn't a doctor where they can protect every night, killing someone on the night they use their protection is at best idiotic and at worst counterproductive.

Actually, originally I was not going to mention this, however it might help our players for protections:

The people who should MOST likely gain protections from players who have them now is those who have not drawn their protection cards yet. These are the players more likely to draw them and use them in the late game when it matters.

Scum's best strategy is to eliminate players who haven't yet drawn cards which are good for town, and keep players who have cards which are good for scum left to draw.

By protecting the players with good draws left we force the scum to kill less optimal players and therefore gain an advantage.

[Kinetic]

Second Draft
-----
1/4-Shot Nightkill
1-Shot Rat
1-Shot Plague
1-Shot Doctor
1-Shot Sanctuary
1-Shot Apothecary
1-Shot Mimic
1-Shot Double
1/2-Shot Cop Card

Third Draft
1/4-Shot Nightkill
1-Shot Rat
1-Shot Sanctuary
1-Shot Doctor
1/2-Shot Cop Card
1-Shot Mimic
1-Shot Apothecary
1-Shot Double
1-Shot Plague


For every townie this should be your draft priority list. I'm giving you this so your second and third drafts won't be idiotic.


Second Draft
Here is why:
If you are townie you CANNOT pass a 1/4th NK. It means that the Scum get a NK for free. During Day 1 drafting Plague first is the best bet because it is much more likely for Plague to strike a hit in the early game than in the end game. However, by the second draft there will already be some Apothacaries around, significantly limiting the likelihood of a Plague on Night 5/6 (which is the earliest a plague will hit from the second draft. Due to the delay on Plague, Rat is even better than it in the second draft. (In the first Draft Plague was better than Rat though)

Rat takes second, and some people might wonder why its ahead of Doctor. On the second draft Rat is such a powerful card and directly counters Doctor and Sanc. If you choose Doctor over Rat, and you pass the Rat to a scum, you're making a bad choice. The scum will just use the Rat to bypass the Doctor card you took. The scum cannot use the doctor card, its useless for them, but you giving them a Rat card could stop your doctor or someone elses Sanc.

The two safety cards are next, and are by far the best town cards in the game. If you pull one of these and don't need to draft defensively and also can pull a double or mimic you're golden. And Ideal draft would be a Double/Mimic, Sand/Doc, and a .25NK/Rat to discard.

Apoth is next. It is sort of the little safety card that could. If you have it, use it, either on yourself or a townie as you see fit.

Double/Mimic should only be drawn depending on your other drafts and should never be your first draft. Mimic beats double because it could technically be a good first draft if you've already used a doc, sanc, or apoth. Otherwise its a wasted card. Again, Double is the same way, but you need to draft one of those three cards for it to be useful, a much harder job.

1/2 cop is last for multiple reasons. One, scum have no use for this card, so its not a bad card to send to them. Two, because you need two of them, you need to understand that its OK to pass this card. If you can draft a 1/2 Cop with your last pick, and play it (with a good ditch card, like Rat), it could set you up for a good third draft.

Third Draft:
You'll notice several cards have changed.

1/4 NK and Rat are still by and far the best early drafts for town for purely defensive purposes.

Doc/Sanc move up a spot. Personally I feel Sanc starts to be stronger for townies late game than Doc, but to each his own.

1/2 Cop makes a jump, but you should only draft this if you've already drafted a 1/2 Cop and used it. A late game cop isn't bad, but generally protections are still better (since its difficult to trust a late game cop).

Mimic gains strength in the late game, especially if you've played a Doc or Sanc. If you have, draw a Mimic as if it was a Doc or Sanc at this point.

Apoth drops below Cop mainly because by this point plague is not a strong card, thus its counter isn't very strong either. Its not a bad draw if you're forced into it, but I doubt I'd take it.

Double is virtually useless at this point. Seeing as the earliest you'll be able to double a card is Night six from the third draft.

Plague is terribad for everyone. Even if you drew the plague and used it Night 5, it wouldn't take effect until Night 7. The game most likely will be over by then, and if it isn't, it will end in a town loss day 7 anyway.

[Kinetic]

I think plague claims are a good idea.

[Kinetic]

I do plan on using my plague as a vig would.

Albert, did you take the 1/4th NK or pass it? (I didn't look back if you said this already)

[Kinetic]

I do plan on using my plague as a vig would.

Why?

One because I can, and two because its better than using Rat. Plus I've never been a Vig and kind of want to do it, lol. I'll claim who I killed Day 4 if I'm still alive.

[Kinetic]

I do plan on using my plague as a vig would.

Why?

One because I can, and two because its better than using Rat. Plus I've never been a Vig and kind of want to do it, lol. I'll claim who I killed Day 4 if I'm still alive.

Or Day 2 or 3 if I suddenly feel that person is town so someone can maybe send them an Apoth.

[Kinetic]

*adds Kinetic to the list of people I don't trust with a plague*

Plagueing someone without 1) getting the town's consensus before hand 2) telling the town the day afterwords is scummy. There's no pro-town motivation to killing someone without the consent of the town.

Ha. I'm not telling the town the day afterword unless I feel them town. Scum can use Apoths too you know, and are much more likely to do so if they get the chance. They don't need an Apoth now, they could draw one next draw which happens Night 3. Actually, that is an interesting question

Mod: Will a player targeted by Plague on Night 1 be able to use the card they draft Night 3 before plague would kill them.

Either way, what do you think a vig is? I'm going to look deep at the players and target the person highest on my scum list. I'm not going to randomly target, and I'm not hiding that I'm going to use it. I'm being very open with that fact. I could have hidden the fact that I've already drawn mine and player clueless when someone died. -.-

[Kinetic]

*adds Kinetic to the list of people I don't trust with a plague*

Plagueing someone without 1) getting the town's consensus before hand 2) telling the town the day afterwords is scummy. There's no pro-town motivation to killing someone without the consent of the town.

Yup I agree.

Bullshit ABR. You care about consensus about as much as a sun cares about the moon. You just want YOUR input.

Anyway, its impossible to get that consensus because the consensus requires us to inform scum of our target and that is a bad idea.

[Kinetic]

I'm not lying, btw. I've got Plague, Rat, and Double.

wow, so you could either Double Plague N2, or Play Double N2 and hope to draw something useful off the 3rd day draft to double (maybe a Doc or Apoth).

[Kinetic]

Vote:Kinetic

Here’s why:

First, he tries to set up everyone’s draft picks for the next two drafts in his post 88 leaving cards that would help the scum (mimic and double) near the bottom, and putting some that town might need (apoth, cop) near the bottom (putting cop on the very bottom second draft). This doesn’t help the town at all.

Apoth is slightly useful. Cop is virtually useless (unless you've already drafted one and used it). If you haven't drafted a .5 Cop yet, drafting one now is a bad move. If you already have one, drafting a second is a decent play.

Mimic and Double are good scum cards? Pray tell how. Plague, Rat, Doc, Sanc, and Apoth are the only cards that can be mimiced or doubled. Of those, only plague is any use to be mimiced or doubled by scum. By draft 2, Plague is becoming a more useless card, and its absolutely horrid draft 3. Rat is useless to double, and not very good to mimic (although it is better than Plague in draft 2, something I didn't think of but which doesn't majorly change its rank). The other three cards are better for townie all around to be mimiced or doubled.

Yet I find it funny, since you accuse me of both putting townie AND scum good cards near the bottom. Guess what, all the cards have some gain for townie or for scum. Make your list and I'll criticize that. I've ranked the cards, and that means some cards are better plays then other.

Are you going to tell me that Half of a Cop is a better pull than Plague? Than Doc? Then Sanc? Or Double. Double is a HORRID card. Its by far the worst card in the game, but it has some uses. Mimic can be OK, but it all depends on your previous drafts.

But again, post your list, what order would YOU put them in?

Next, he asks for a Plague claim (along with everyone else, including me) In 108.

Correction: I SUPPORTED a plague claim. I didn't bring it up first, but I think its a good idea. Guess what, I'm not alone.

The main thing drawing my vote, however is post 116 to post 120 where he claims intent on using he plague card against someone without telling anyone until his target dies. What would the town motivation be behind this? Nothing stands out.

The town motivation is simple. I have to use it or Rat. Rat is useless for townie, Plague has a chance to kill a scum. I plan on targeting a scum with it.

Problem is, if I announce my target, and my target IS scum, then the scum will just protect him. Hell, the TOWN might protect him.

There is a higher chance of a scum gaining protection from it that a townie, and thus I cannot take that chance. I plan on choosing who I think is most likely scum, and I fully intend to claim my kill and everything it entails. I've been upfront about it and not hiding.

I continue to assert, plague was not passed to me, there is no chance if I had kept quiet that I would be caught using the card. What benefit is it to me to be this open about it if I'm scum?

Then he goes on to insult ABR in post post 122 for agreeing with my assessment of Kinetic’s plague card choice.

Correction: I didn't insult ABR, I called bullshit on him. ABR is an extremely aggressive player who cares highly about his own ego. Mark my words, if he had a plague card he would use it without a second thought if anyone else had any input.

The fact that he wants consensus in this game and not others is extremely scummy. He only wants to control the kill and I refuse to let him.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, we both know you're going to hit town. Please don't think you're qualified to vig players at your discretion.

Ouch. Well I suppose we'll find out, won't we.

[Kinetic]

If you're a townie and you don't discard Rat, you're worse than horrible.

[Kinetic]

But if for some reason you HAVE to use Rat (Like you have two of them for some reason) try and target a scum. That's the best you can do. Don't announce your target though because if you do the scum will just kill the person.

[Kinetic]

So... I'm scum because I have one great card, one medium card, and one bad card?

Are you planning on using plague day one or two?

[Kinetic]

No.

[Kinetic]

Well, if you wanted to double plague, you'd have to play double first. Then on Night 2 You'd be able to use Plague twice.

I'd highly suggest NOT doing that. One plague is a lot, 2 is crazy.

What you should do, is use plague night 1, like I am, and if you don't like your target anymore announce it during the day to see if someone can throw an Apoth at it during N2 before the Plague resolves on Day 3.

Use Double on Night 2 and during your draft the card you want to draft would be Doctor. Whoever is above you should also look to pass you a doc if they're town.

If a Doc isn't possible then an Apoth isn't a bad second choice with an active double going into N2, or if you're unlucky just pull a card that can't be doubled and use it N3. It will waste the double effect but its better than being forced to double a rat or a plague day 3.

[Kinetic]

TL;DR, Kast just tried to kill me with a Wall of Text.

Vote:Kast

Diescumdie.

[Kinetic]

TL;DR, Kast just tried to kill me with a Wall of Text.

Vote:Kast

Diescumdie.

Seriously I hate the Goomba but I dont think he is scum.
You should know this, Kinetic.
My other comments later this night. Im at work right now.

Yea, I pretty much feel the same way, I just got this weird "I'm going to bombard you with this so you can't possibly think I'm scum" vibe, and its irritating me more than anything.

[Kinetic]

Stop using ad hom to bolster your arguments, kthx.

[Kinetic]

Posting to avoid Prod. Sorry, this week and the next are very heavy on me from classes. Will catch up ASAP.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic has argued that I am pushing for his lynch, but I have not done so.

I did?

[Kinetic]

Posting again to avoid Prod.

Project due tomorrow, finishing it up. If I get a chance I'll post after I'm done, if not I'll post at the latest Wednesday morning.

[Kinetic]

My main issue with it is you're forcing townies to gather more than they're fair share of 1/4th NK cards instead of other cards which may be more beneficial to the town.

In my plan (every townie is responsible for their own 1/4 NK card) we may not catch a scum on virtue of an extra NK being used, however we guarantee that an extra NK will NOT happen.

In your plan you're forcing what may be 4 townies to collect a card which may not be useful to them or the town, and pass cards which might (doctors, apoths, sancs, etc), because if they pass a 1/4 NK that was passed to them it would go against your plan.

Not to mention that a lot of your posts just rankle my nerves. When I have more time to read the books you post I'll be able to put my finger on the why, but otherwise it is just a feeling.

[Kinetic]

Hi, I'm lurking, I know it. Things piling up. Test due before Friday, Dentist appointment Friday, Grandparents 50th Wedding Anniversary on Saturday.

Ugh.

And this isn't an easy game just to skin, Kast's posts make me want to dig even deeper than I normally do, and his challenges (calling everything I do craplogic) are peeving me to the core.

I can't make a significant contribution until I get these things squared away though. I'm still here, I will catch up. I like my vote for now.

[Kinetic]

Still here, responding to prod, will post content I promise. Ugh I hate school.

[Kinetic]

I'm here.

vote:zwet

Because I hate repeated words.

I have a little time to catch up, so let me see what I can do.

[Kinetic]

Oddly enough, my plague is useless...

I targeted CTD. Had a feeling. Meant to re-read and confirm before I was sure. I guess that feeling was wrong too >>.

[Kinetic]

Oddly enough, my plague is useless...

I targeted CTD. Had a feeling. Meant to re-read and confirm before I was sure. I guess that feeling was wrong too >>.

Anyone who targeted CTD with anything but helpful cards is possible scum. He was easily one of the top three townies. The fact that you hurt one of the main drivers of Budjascum's lynch is incredibly damning. I could lynch you too.

Guys, I can 100% guarentee Ort is scum. Lets lynch him.

*Attempted to hurt.

Plus, your reasoning makes no logical sense.

1) If I was scum, why would I ever claim to have targeted CTD? There isn't a tracker card, no one would know. Not to mention the fact that I do have (and still have) a Rat card. I could easily use my lurking to distance myself from the CTD kill with no one being the wiser.

2) If I was scum why would I waste my plague on CTD and then use the team kill to kill him out right. That makes 0 sense. Why waste a delayed kill by using the real kill on top of it?

3) The only possible explanation for a plague from a mafia on someone they were using their team kill on is if they feared a doc. The fact that we have a doc claim, and the kill went through ANYWAY means that the mafia used a Rat or the Doc is lying. If the Mafia really used a Rat, a Plague AND a team kill on CTD, don't you think that is a TAD overkill?

4) I targeted CTD because I didn't have a lot of time and I was looking for he bus. I know someone was bussing Budja in my gut and CTD's vote looked like it was primly placed to be the driver. I don't think both scum are on the BUS, the counter wagon was too close for that, but I'm feeling pretty strong that at least one of the scum was on it.

5) The only way you can be 100% on someone is if you're scum or have the Cop card and a result on them. Seeing as the latter is impossible until at least night 2 it makes me question exactly how sure you are about this. Are you overstating yourself a little bit?

Get a clue please. Still reading, I'm not liking charter honestly in my re-read, more on that later.

[Kinetic]

Oddly enough, my plague is useless...

I targeted CTD. Had a feeling. Meant to re-read and confirm before I was sure. I guess that feeling was wrong too >>.

Anyone who targeted CTD with anything but helpful cards is possible scum. He was easily one of the top three townies. The fact that you hurt one of the main drivers of Budjascum's lynch is incredibly damning. I could lynch you too.

Guys, I can 100% guarentee Ort is scum. Lets lynch him.

*Attempted to hurt.

The fact that you're attempting to justify your action is so horribly anti town, words can not describe it. If it weren't for the fact that ortolan is EXTREMELY OBVIOUS scum, you would be swinging from the noose today.

Wait, what? Got it, in your head if something has a scummy reasoning behind it cannot have a non-scummy reasoning?

As a member of the town it is my responsibility to argue my reasoning and prove there is a townie reason behind it.

You may not agree with those reasons, but the fact that I am presenting them cannot be taken as scummy.

And your thinly veiled threats have no backing. You have one vote just like everyone else.

Plus, your reasoning makes no logical sense.

No, it makes perfect sense, literally any player besides CTD, kast, or myself would have been a better use of that card, even yourself, and by a wide margin.

In your opinion. I love how you put yourself on that list though.

1) If I was scum, why would I ever claim to have targeted CTD? There isn't a tracker card, no one would know. Not to mention the fact that I do have (and still have) a Rat card. I could easily use my lurking to distance myself from the CTD kill with no one being the wiser.

If I was scum, I would even bother to read this. WIFOM defense is entirely ignored.

It isn't WIFOM, its straight logical sense. There is no compelling reason to tie myself to CTD's death. What do I gain by it?

2) If I was scum why would I waste my plague on CTD and then use the team kill to kill him out right. That makes 0 sense. Why waste a delayed kill by using the real kill on top of it?

Yeah, I didn't read this either. See number one.

How can you just ignore sense!? My use of plague on CTD if I were mafia is mindbogglingly dumb.

3) The only possible explanation for a plague from a mafia on someone they were using their team kill on is if they feared a doc. The fact that we have a doc claim, and the kill went through ANYWAY means that the mafia used a Rat or the Doc is lying. If the Mafia really used a Rat, a Plague AND a team kill on CTD, don't you think that is a TAD overkill?

Clearly at least one of you and ort is lying, in all liklihood both.

Right. You've read my games before? At the beginning of this game you said about me:

So yes, I'd say he's good at being scum

Now the reason I bring this up, is that there is absolutely NO WAY if I used a card on CTD it would be figured out. Why would I claim it? For what reasoning?

Plus, if BOTH Ort and I are lying, why in the bloody hell would we do it? I'd like to here your reasoning behind why we would both lie...

4) I targeted CTD because I didn't have a lot of time and I was looking for he bus. I know someone was bussing Budja in my gut and CTD's vote looked like it was primly placed to be the driver. I don't think both scum are on the BUS, the counter wagon was too close for that, but I'm feeling pretty strong that at least one of the scum was on it.

There were two acceptable cards to use on CTD. Those are the 1 shot doctor, and the 1 shot apothecary. CTD was clearly not bussing. Rishi or ort were clearly bussing. Your explaination is poor and unacceptable.

Un hunh. -.-; That was your opinion. My differed. I never claimed we would come to the same conclusions.

5) The only way you can be 100% on someone is if you're scum or have the Cop card and a result on them. Seeing as the latter is impossible until at least night 2 it makes me question exactly how sure you are about this. Are you overstating yourself a little bit?

Piss poor argument. I overstate all the time. Please try and describe how it's a scumtell, because you will be shot down.

Get a clue please. Still reading, I'm not liking charter honestly in my re-read, more on that later.

No, you get a clue. CTD was literally the worst possible target for a plague. Go ahead and give a case on me, I await the pleasure I will get from shooting it down.

Wow... did you really say "No, you!"? Stop acting childish. I've already told you why I did. I'm not making a case on CTD, I didn't have one. Shoot down what? All you are doing is puffing up your chest and shouting.

Sorry if this sounds rude or arrogant to anybody, but the only acceptable explaination I see to Kinetic plaging CTD is "I wasn't reading, I was wrong". The fact that he tries to defend himself is horribly scummy.

-.-; I already said I wasn't reading much. I have been horribly behind in this game and the other game I'm playing. I made my choice because it was better than getting my Rat or Plague randomly chosen and randomly targeted. I didn't have a lot of time to decide so I quickly looked at vote counts and tried to make a decision from that.

I was wrong to target him, but it doesn't make any difference now. I didn't kill him and if I felt like you did after re-reading I would have been able to say I targeted him today and hopefully get him an Apoth in the night.

Are you happy? Stop acting childish now, alright?

[Kinetic]

Kinetic.

I don't believe you used the plague on CTD.

So the whole argument falls apart.

Well I did...

If you are convinced of this, there is some way to prove it though.

First: We know about who could have used Plagues on Day 1. Assuming no one lied or failed to reveal.

Second: You know for certain what my other two cards we. 1/4 NK and Rat. You know this because the person who passed them to me confirmed it, and the person after me confirmed that they weren't passed to them.

Third: If I used my plague last night, that person will die tomorrow. If all the plague kills are claimed then you will know that I either A) Used my plague as I stated, or B) Did not use my plague.

Fourth: If the third event happens, then the beginning of the fourth day if there are plague deaths, and they are accounted for, then it is again proven that either A) I did not use my plague, or B) I used my plague as stated.

Unfortunately my other cards are hard to prove I still have by using. The 1/4th does nothing if I use it, and the Rat can only have Bad implications if I use it.

However, if I were scum there would be little reason not to use plague, and use it as soon as possible. While not a perfect defense the best proof that I used it as I have said would be depending on the deaths on Days 3 and 4.

[Kinetic]

@ charter

Don't put un-necessary wear and tear on your typewriter arguing with Kinetic.

He's scum. You won't convince him.

More importantly, we need to know if he's willing to help, and bus ortolan.

What, pray tell, is he trying to convince me?

[Kinetic]

Wow...

I just read Budja in isolation... and I didn't find him particularly scummy...

Am I losing my touch or is there a major bus going on?

[Kinetic]

That quote was directed at Kinetic, not you. Top three townies were kast, CTD, and myself, we were the three main drivers of the Budja lynch. We never waivered on it.

The more people clad themselves in the armor of a successful lynch the more my scumdar goes off and thinks it was a bus.

Just because you were correct then does not mean you can start ignoring valid arguments. Sit back and actually develop a case instead of going off half-assed just because your self-righteousness won't allow you to stay calm.

I think I have an idea. Much of the case that is on me is dependent on what card I used last night.

Zwet has a double plague coming up, why don't we, by threat of lynch, tell him to make one of his targets me?

Unless, that is, you want to let Zwet have free reign to choose two plague targets.

[Kinetic]

Yes, thank you. This was exactly my point. You tried to get Ace or DGB lynched all day, rather than Budja. Budja was scum.

You're making quite the claim here... There are three scum you know... Ace and DGB could be scum.

[Kinetic]

Yes, thank you. This was exactly my point. You tried to get Ace or DGB lynched all day, rather than Budja. Budja was scum.

You're making quite the claim here... There are three scum you know... Ace and DGB could be scum.

Are you just saying this or do you believe that DGB and I (or one or the other) are scum?

I think the possibility exists and just because Budja was proven scum doesn't mean that you or DGB were proven otherwise. To think or say otherwise is misleading at best.

[Kinetic]

That quote was directed at Kinetic, not you. Top three townies were kast, CTD, and myself, we were the three main drivers of the Budja lynch. We never waivered on it.

The more people clad themselves in the armor of a successful lynch the more my scumdar goes off and thinks it was a bus.

Wait, who besides me has done this? If you're thinking bus, then you give good reasons for thinking that, not these unfounded accusations.

Good reasons? I just gave them. Stop chest pounding. There is no reason to keep reminding people you were on a lynch unless you are insecure for some reason.

Zwet has a double plague coming up, why don't we, by threat of lynch, tell him to make one of his targets me?

You clearly have not read this game. Bargaining like this is what sealed Budja's fate. I'd rather lynch you than let you weasel your way out. If you're scum, you can probably guarentee you won't die.

Stop the hostility. Seriously, its getting annoying. The only reason you have placed to suspect me is because I targeted CTD with plague and you can't confirm it. Lynching me today before I can prove you wrong would be short sighted when there is a good chance where this can be disproved.

This is a decent compromise so that I don't "weasel [my] way out", yet there is still a chance that when there is some proof that things happened as I said it would that the kill can be prevented.

Yet from the way you're acting, you don't care if what will happen when I turn up town.

Yes, thank you. This was exactly my point. You tried to get Ace or DGB lynched all day, rather than Budja. Budja was scum.

You're making quite the claim here... There are three scum you know... Ace and DGB could be scum.

Could be scum? COULD BE!?!? Budja WAS scum.

Stop acting self-righteous. Of course Budja was scum, but that doesn't mean someone is scummy for not suspecting him or for suspecting someone who could be scum. That is the point I'm trying to make here.

You make it seem like Budja was the ONLY option when there are two other scum out there. The way you say it, with 100% 20/20 hindsight you are already declaring Budja the only scum option when there is no way to know that for sure yet.

[Kinetic]

@Kinetic-
-You've danced around this with Charter, but why would you target CTD? You said you suspect there is/was bussing going on, but in that case, there are 6 other players who could have been bussing. Why CTD? It seems...a suboptimal choice at best.

I still haven't read all of Day One. Other obligations (modding my own game, finals week, etc) have kept me from having the time. I really could only skim some of the days events and much of my determination on who might be the bus was based on quickly analyzing the vote counts. I felt CTD could be bussing, and because of the way Plagues are used if I felt otherwise I could announce it today and hope to get an Apoth sent to him.

When he ended up the mafia kill I realized I must have made a mistake, and I announced it plainly because it was useless at this point. I hadn't thought of it then, but now that I think of it now, announcing it later would have been a worse play. Maybe I subconsciously knew that.

-Why would you choose to use a plague right away instead of waiting until Night 2? Clearly you were mistaken about CTD; what made you so confident that he was scum that it was worth trying to kill him?

Although I don't have a lot of Day One posts, I know I addressed this. I felt Plague would be more and more useless the later in the game. I suppose I could have burned my 1/4th NK and then plagued Day 2, but I already stated I planned on Plaguing Night 1 and I went ahead with what I felt was my best choice with limited (granted, self limited) information.

-You are using a straw man against Charter. His point, if you are scum, is not that scum Kinetic used a plague on the same scum NK target. His point, if you are scum, is that you used the NK on CTD and you are lying about using plague on CTD.

I am not strawmanning him, I'm pointing out that my choice makes no sense as scum.

Assuming I haven't used Plague, or that I used it on someone else, is answered later in this post because you asked a more relevant question and I can answer both there.

It is WiFoM to claim that you are a townie since scum would have no reason to claim using plague on CTD.

No. WiFoM assumes that there are relatively equal choices.

There is absolutely no reason to use a Plague on a target that was being planned as the Mafia NK.

I understand if you argue than that I must have not ever had Plague or didn't use it yet, but there is very very very little to gain using a delayed kill on a targeted kill, and much more to lose (not the least of which is another kill). I can at least disprove half of that tomorrow.

-Please explain your comment from Day 1 to populartajo that you agree with him that Kast is probably a townie, but also that you are happy to leave your vote on Kast?

Talking in the third person now? lol

Basically I was starting to get very encumbered by my daily activities. I was still annoyed with you, but I didn't want to throw my vote out willynilly at anyone. I left my vote there because I felt there was very little chance of you being lynched and felt it was relatively safe.

Although you'll have to take my word on it, if you indeed came up to being lynched I would have unvoted and read the case and revoted if I felt you deserved to be lynched. My vote was far from concrete in any terms.

@Kinetic-
-Why did you claim to have targetted CTD with your plague? I don't see a strong motivation for either scum OR town to do so. I don't recall anyone calling for you to claim your night actions; if you are a townie, then you have just let scum know that they don't have to worry about being plagued by you. If you were attempting to "trick" scum, just FYI, I absolutely would not believe it if we entered Day 3 and a townie died to plague and you suddenly reversed your position and claimed you were attempting to trick scum (that would probably lead to your lynch).

I already addressed this to the best of my ability multiple times. I don't exactly understand what you expect me to say. There isn't some major meta reasons, or anything else. I had to make a choice and I made it. It was a poor choice, but bad does not equal scum.

There is no trick. I wasted my plague. I'm not going to claim any kills because none of them are mine.

@Kinetic-
Read Budja in context not isolation. Much of the reason for suspecting Budja was because of the context.

I plan to, I seriously haven't had a lot of time but I don't want to skate on my commitments. I was a quick look to read him in isolation and I hoped it might give me some more information. It didn't.

Reading him in context will take a lot longer unfortunately.

@Kinetic, 768-
It is possible that Charter (or Kast, or anyone on Budja's wagon) was bussing. However, I don't get that impression about Charter at all. He had opportunities to get on a different wagon, and Budja was far from a sure lynch for most of Day 1. I doubt that Budja's lynch would have happened without Charter's support.

My feelings from this come more from another game and my personal feelings. (See War in Heaven, Large Theme). Multiple players claimed credit for a day 1 scum lynch and then used that as a mandate to then lynch something like 10 townies in a row.

I also personally feel that sort of personal chest pounding is a useless activity which doesn't accomplish anything. If you did good, great, but it doesn't mean anything if you cannot repeat it. It only means that you got lucky.

If you can do it again, or do it consistently I'll be impressed. Until then it is just useless posturing and abhor it.

Lynching me today before I can prove you wrong would be short sighted when there is a good chance where this can be disproved.

I must have missed something. How are you going to prove this?

Again, as I said, I cannot disprove everything, and even the things I can prove will never be 100% (few things in this game ever are), but some points can be, I suppose reinforced is a better word, in Day 3 and Day 4 with the kills that will (or won't, as I know) come in.

At the very least it can be proven that I didn't target anyone else with plague on Day 1.

It cannot be proven that I used plague on day 1 (only a kill could do that), or that I didn't use it on Day 2 (at least not until Day 4), or that I didn't dust the plague card (which, ironically, can never be proven since the Plague I drew was from my personal pile).

[Kinetic]

ORT IS AT L-1!! be careful, town.

lol. Its funny, if I were to hammer ort it'd be a bus if he comes up scum and opportunistic scum if he comes up town.

I think I'll abstain from voting until I read day 1.

[Kinetic]

lol. Its funny, if I were to hammer ort it'd be a bus if he comes up scum and opportunistic scum if he comes up town.

I take it you had intent of hammering ort?

No, I was just pointing out something I thought interesting.

[Kinetic]

However, charter's speculation strikes at the heart of one of my outstanding questions to you; why did you choose to CLAIM your night 1 action? Nobody was pressing you to claim whether you used a plague (or anything else for that matter). I'd like to hear a reason for why you thought it would help the town to make that unprompted claim.

Charter has proposed a reason why Kinetic as scum would want to make that claim (hides your real night actions, sets up to "prove" that you did not plague any players other than CTD on Night 1).

Because I did... I noticed it, I even went so far as to double check that he was my target because I was surprised.

I initially made CTD a conditional target and intended to go back, look over the thread, and maybe change it, but stuff came up and since I disappeared it was taken as my target.

Plus I already said previously I would claim my target after they died, I didn't expect them to die from something that wasn't my plague though. On Day 3 my target would have been asked for and if I said CTD then I'd have these questions (and maybe more) coming then.

Figured I'd just get it out of the way and we'd move on, I honestly didn't think it would be this big of a deal.

[Kinetic]

@Kinetic-
To be clear, your reason for

USING

the plague on Night 1 is that you felt scum would be immune to plague on any future night?

To be clear, your reason for using the plague on

CTD

is that you felt the Budja lynch must have at least one scum, and you felt CTD was the most likely scum out of the seven players on the wagon.

Also to be clear, your reason for

CLAIMING

your night action is that you were afraid that people would be suspicious if you claimed on Day 3.

Is all of that correct?

That is part of the reason but not the only one. There were other motivations as well, such as I said I was going to use it Night 1. If someone was to kill me holding onto it would be useless. Pretty much all the reasons I gave night 1...

On two, yes, based on my limited knowledge I felt that CTD could be the scum and he was my best guess.

Three, not exactly the only reason. My primary reason was I said I would and I thought it was interesting that he was killed which I have mentioned before. That reason was more something I thought after the fact when I said "If people are getting this bent out of shape today, just imagine what they would think if I'd claimed tomorrow".

I initially made CTD a conditional target and intended to go back, look over the thread, and maybe change it, but stuff came up and since I disappeared it was taken as my target.

Wait...I don't think I follow this part exactly.

Does this mean you told PJ to use your Plague card against CTD unless you told him otherwise (and then you were gone so you never told him otherwise)?

If that is a correct understanding of what you posted, at what point in time did you decide on CTD as your target?

What made you decide on him as a target?

Yes.

The day closed, I knew I needed to send in a target with a card or one would be randomized, I took about 5-10 minutes to pick a target on the first day of the night with the intent to come back and maybe switch it.

And how many times do I have to answer that question?

I've said my peace, at this point I'm done. I've answered 20 different times as honestly as I can, but now you're asking the same questions over and over. If you have anything else to ask I'll try to answer it but I'm not answering the same question I've already answered again.

[Kinetic]

-If you picked CTD as your target at the beginning of the night, why were you surprised?

Umm... Really? I was surprised he was Night Killed. What else would I have been surprised about?

The reason I asked you to clarify timing on that is because you had not done so before and your post reads ambiguously on the timing with an implication that some events happened between picking your target and claiming your target that changed your opinion about CTD.

Between me choosing CTD as my plague target and me claiming him as my plague target CTD was Night Killed and revealed as town. I would have to point to that point when my opinion changed about him.

-To clarify then, your primary reason for claiming is that you said you would claim after your plague target died. Your next reason is that you thought it was interesting that CTD was killed.

I want to note that your primary reason doesn't exactly fit with what you promised. You promised to claim your plague kill. This was clearly not your plague kill (unless you have magically fast acting plagues). It may have been your plague target. The reasoning behind claiming a plague kill, does apply equally to this case (although that does not necessarily make it a scummy thing).

I claimed I'd reveal my plague target after they were killed. Initially I was confused on when plagues would kill players and I stated I'd announce it Day 4. Claiming my plague target today or tomorrow would have made precious little difference to the point where I don't see how it is an issue.

Either way, we both agree that I would have claimed it tomorrow. Claiming it today isn't as big of a deal as you are making it out to be.

Your secondary reason does not explain why you would want to claim your plague target.

I claimed it. Ok, maybe my reasoning wasn't perfect, but it was my internal reasoning. This isn't a question on your internal reasoning. If you were in the same position maybe you wouldn't have claimed. I did. Great. I get it. You're smarter than me. Can we PLEASE move on?

-Do you still adhere to your belief that one player on Budja's lynch must be scum bussing Budja? How does CTD's death affect this?

I do still think so. CTD's death means he wasn't that person.

[Kinetic]

... ace1983 is acting weird. Scummy weird. Then I thought about it:

Could ABR have been so mad about this game with zwet because zwet was on his scum team, and that is why he refused to play unless zwet was replaced or lynched?

[Kinetic]

Could ABR have been so mad about this game with zwet because zwet was on his scum team, and that is why he refused to play unless zwet was replaced or lynched?

You know that's the sort of argument that pushes ALL my buttons, don't you?

I have these random thoughts. I generally state them. Take them for the grain of salt that they are.

Do I think this happened enough to push it? Not even remotely.

Is it something interesting that I wanted to put down here so during end and post game I can look back and see if my instinct was correct? That is a lot closer to my aim.

[Kinetic]

Day Two: Vote Count #5

3 ortolan (AceMarksma, Kast, zwetschenwasser)
3 zwetschenwasser (Kinetic, Rishi, DrippingGoofball)

2 Kinetic (charter, ac1983fan)

With

10

alive, it takes

6

to lynch, and

4

to lynch at deadline. Deadline is May 9, 9:59 pm CDT.

Not Voting – 2 – Looker, ortolan

Based on this, I think I can reasonably assume that if Ort and Zwet are narrowed to the only choices for today that Charter will prefer Ort and Ort will prefer Zwet. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

I'd like to hear from AC and Looker specifically on Ort and Zwet.

Now I know someone is going to point out that I have two votes and am currently a potential lynch target, so to get a complete picture, we already know Kast/DBG's views on me, so this question to the players currently not voting me:

Ace: Given the choice between who you are currently not voting (Zwet) and me, who are you most willing to vote for?

Kast: Same question. You've said a lot about me but I can't remember the last time you voted me. Given the choice between me and Zwet, who would you vote for?

Zwet: I know your answer, lol.

Rishi/DGB: Given the choice between Ort and me, who would you prefer to vote for (assuming you couldn't vote for Zwet).

Charter: I have you in the position of preferring an Ort lynch to a Zwet lynch at this time. Is this correct? What about Zwet's play has you placing him as less scummy than I or Ort if that is what you believe?

AC: More content please, along with the question above what do you feel about the players not on the chopping block, particularly Charter and Kast?

Looker: I can't remember your posts, so feel free to answer any of the questions I've asked other players as well as the specific one I asked you above. Additionally, being a non-voter, who would you prefer to lynch, ort, Zwet or myself?

Ort: You have a lot of pressure, I'd like to know though, given the choice between myself and Zwet, who would you prefer to lynch?

[Kinetic]

Kinetic: you are my second suspect, as your day one play was less than stellar.

Why are you asking this?

I'm trying to get back into this game and so far my interest is being ruined by a flurry of inane and repetitive questions from Kast about the same topic from the beginning of the day. I feel like virtually no one is weighing in and between the bully-like tactics of Charter and DGB being.... well DGB I'm being forced to play at someone else's tempo.

I'm trying to get back into my own tempo, and that requires me break the status quo for this game as I see it.

I haven't been asking questions, I've been completely on the defensive and honestly for what I believe are somewhat spurious reasons.

I'm going to get back to playing my game, because that is the way I win games and I've been way too damn complacent in this game.

I still have commitments to school until Tuesday. Once those are done I plan on really sitting down and banging what I can out of this game. Until then I think that some discussion on the questions I posed to players can help me determine some more with this game.

[Kinetic]

Day Two: Vote Count #5

3 ortolan (AceMarksman, Kast, zwetschenwasser)
3 zwetschenwasser (Kinetic, Rishi, DrippingGoofball)

OFF-WAGON (charter, ac1983fan, Looker, ortolan)

Ortolan and zwet are 3-3.

We have 4 players currently off the wagons. I wonder why none of them is moving their vote. We need 6 to lynch, right?

I really don't like the zwet wagon at all.
In fact, at this point, I'd be happy lynching Kinetic, DGB, maybe even ortolan... but not zwet
Can we please get some more votes on Kinetic, who, IMO, is the scummiest person of the whole game?
We have five days until deadline anyway.

Yea, after this post I really do like my vote on Zwet all the more.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic isn't even attempting to read what he hasn't, so who knows what info he's basing his decisions off of, but if it's the same info as his N1 decision, then it won't be a good one. It looks like he is posting a fair amount in other games, so I just see his lurking in this one as an excuse.

I'm in one other game, and its based on RISK. I won't discuss an ongoing game except to say that that game is unique in the fact that it doesn't require as much thought on players and can be played simply as a straight Risk game.

The only other game that could possibly be looked at of mine is the game I am modding. Again, ongoing so I can't discuss it, but I don't exactly have to stay current in the game and post more often than once or twice a day at most.

But if you want to look into it deeper you'll notice that WOT wasn't even started when I had most of my time issues (Day 1), and I was just as inactive in RISK during that time period.

Since then you can hardly say I've been lurking. Its true I haven't caught up completely (last final exam was today, so that won't be the case soon), but I have been posted relatively frequently even if not always with intimate knowledge of the game. I've laid myself out there for you all to judge as much as I can. When I catch up I'll be better, but you can't fault me for lurking previously now that I'm back.

zwet is just flat out going to plague two townies.

Then it would be a good idea to vote him? He is a good choice, I'm voting him myself, but no matter what I do two plagues is worse than any of my cards could be even if you don't believe what I have.

Kast, I'm not really looking at this as 'we need to give people time to read' so much as 'I much prefer Kinetic be lynched, and that is going to take some time'.

Or it could be "As soon as we're finished with this lynch I've set up the next, don't worry guys, I got it."

I'm actually not ok with an ort lynch anymore. While his repeated self votes are befuddling and piss poor play if town, anyone that were to switch to him right now would be highly suspect, which is why I don't think it's happening (this is true regardless of his alignment). Plus, there is definately scum besides ort, and I think you can make a case that that person is Kinetic, so to me lynching Kinetic now makes the most sense.

Except your case about me isn't very compelling, which is why I don't have many votes.

Ironically enough I think you're more likely town lately than earlier in the day. I tend to have bad OMGUSy attacks when people are attacking me. Its one of the reasons I try not to vote during wall of text wars until I've made a decision on the person, not the argument.

That being said I have some gut feelings and some circumstantial evidence on zwet (particularly his own card use choices, AC's play toward zwet which I find suspect), and in the end even if Zwet isn't scum he is a volatile townie at best with a double plague option that no one has been comfortable with all game.

I wanted him to plague first and double second so at the very least his damage would be minimized. He decided to go for broke and I don't trust him with that much power, town or scum.

That is why I'm voting for him and not hammering Ort. I have no plans to hammer Ort at this time.

[Kinetic]

-,-

ac1983 is so obviously scum it hurts. I'm trying to figure out his scum buddy, I'm leaning towards Zwet at this time.

I'm pretty sure Kast is going to ask you plenty of questions ace, but here is one from me:

Why would you drop the hammer and than immediately go back to pigeon-holing me? It seems like you are impatient scum for dropping the hammer and don't want to give too much away so you're tunneling on the one person you think you're allowed to (me). I don't buy it at all.

I suppose Kast is a possibility.

The more I look over it, the more I'm pretty convinced that DGB is not scum, but I'm not positive.

I don't really have an opinion on Ace, Rishi, or Looker.

vote:ace

[Kinetic]

I don't really have an opinion on Ace, Rishi, or Looker.

vote:ace

1) I really, REALLY hope you meant ac#### right there, not me.
2) Kinetic is fairly scummy at the moment, so
3)

Vote: kinetic

lol,, I did mean ac >>

unvote,vote: acfan1983 or something like that

[Kinetic]

I am 90% sure that the remaining scum is contained within the group of AM, Kinetic, DGB, and Rishi. I've got mostly neutral reads on Zwet and Looker, although looker is the scummier of the two. Kast is still the only extremely townie player IMO.

Your ability to narrow is astonishing. And I don't mean that in a good way. I mean it is astonishingly bad.

[Kinetic]

Interesting buddying b/w Kinetic and Ace...

? What do you mean? Or are you being sarcastic?

It is a common scum tactic. When people are attacking your buddy you attack the accusers and try and shift focus.

It makes me more certain if ac flips scum that zwet is his partner, and more worried about his plagues.

Luckily we'll have a card draw before Zwet's plagues hit, so maybe Apoth is a very worthy first choice.

[Kinetic]

I am 90% sure that the remaining scum is contained within the group of AM, Kinetic, DGB, and Rishi. I've got mostly neutral reads on Zwet and Looker, although looker is the scummier of the two. Kast is still the only extremely townie player IMO.

Your ability to narrow is astonishing. And I don't mean that in a good way. I mean it is astonishingly bad.

Your ability to completely ignore my questions of you and/or actually defend yourself is astonishing.

What is there to defend? Where is a question?

Kinetic, why am I obvscum for voting one of the scummiest people this game?

can I point out that charter, who is a CONFIRMED TOWN found kinetic scummy?

Are these the questions? Really, is this what you're accusing me of dodging. Ha!

For your first question, you are obvscum not because you are "voting one of the scummiest people", you are obvscum because you're being opportunistic, barely adding anything to any case so you can't be held responsible, constantly shifting the blame, and not actually contributing anything except tunneling.

What makes me scummy?

Why am I summier than anyone else in the game?

Assuming I'm scum, who would my likely partners be?

You can't answer those questions because you never thought about them. You just see a wounded animal and you're pouncing.

If you do get your way and I flip town, what are you going to say? "Well Charter was town, and he thought he was scum, I was misled."

You have bullshit arguments and you're not even trying to hide it. You're just getting angry and self-righteous.

And seriously, I don't defend myself? DID YOU READ THE LAST DAY AT ALL? The entire day I spent defending myself, my actions, and my choices. So which is it? Is defending myself scummy or is not defending myself against inane and craplogic scummy, because you can't have it both ways.

[Kinetic]

My computer blew up. Hoping to have the issue resolved by tonight. Update asap.

[Kinetic]

-Why did you choose to hammer? Ort's lynch was clearly going to happen regardless of your vote.

Nobody was budging, so that day needed to end sooner so we could get to lynching actual scum sooner.

Wait. So you didn't think Ort was scum and you hammered him anyway?

Is that what you are saying?

And don't try and divert the question by claiming I'm twisting your words: Answer it honestly, did you think Ort was town or scum when you hammered him?

[Kinetic]

BTW, its the cool hip thing to do to call me scummy. Everyone is doing it and no one is providing a reason why. GOGO group mentality.

Because when everyone is doing it no one is responsible!

[Kinetic]

@Zwet-
Don't claim your plague victims. Don't even narrow them down. If you do, you just help scum determine who to play Apothecaries on. By stating that you didn't plague Player X and Player Y, if both of those players are not scum, then scum know that there is a much greater chance that they have been plagued and will need to grab an Apothecary tonight.

/agree

@Kinetic-
-Why are you convinced that DGB is not scum?

It comes down to what KidIcarus did actually. He passed me a 1/4th NK AND a rat. There were few cards, especially at that time, which would have been better for scum. I can't remember if either of them claimed the cards that they did take, but there are few combinations of cards which I could think of that would have been better for scum.

Also, in multiple games when DGB looked townie she was scum, but virtually every time I peg her as scum she has been townie. Early game I pegged her as possible scum but my personal experience plus the card choices have me thinking she might be town and I'm hardly convinced by most of the arguments made so far.

-We learned that Ort was a townie who genuinely suspected DGB. We learned that Charter was a townie who ended the day wanting to plague DGB and Rishi.

It's not hard proof that DGB is scum, but there is at least legitimate reasons which would entice townies into believing that DGB is scum.

Charter was at best a wild cannon. I don't really trust a lot of claims he has made.

However both CTD and Ort have made strong pushes against DGB and wound up dead... That does give me pause.

I'm truly not sure, but my overall gut is leaning toward town. At least to such a degree where I'm not sure and would like to look at other suspects before deciding on her.

The problem I have always found with "dead townie last words" is the people who kill those townies are more often than not the ones shouting those words. This makes me more suspicious of people like AC#### because he seems like a newbie that would make that sort of mistake. WIFOMy, I know, but many many things can be WIFOM when brought to their roots and eventually you just have to make a choice on what you believe.

Query to Kast: Has AC#### claimed his cards yet? If not, I'd personally like to know his other two cards and would see if others would support me in asking him to claim them.

[Kinetic]

zwet is there any reason why we shouldn't lynch you?

While I was all for lynching zwet yesterday, at this point I'd rather see who his plague targets were before we lynch him because they may be very revealing toward alignment. I feel that means waiting until tomorrow at least before moving on zwet, no matter how scummy he looks right now.

The play for today is ac####.

[Kinetic]

zwet is there any reason why we shouldn't lynch you?

While I was all for lynching zwet yesterday, at this point I'd rather see who his plague targets were before we lynch him because they may be very revealing toward alignment. I feel that means waiting until tomorrow at least before moving on zwet, no matter how scummy he looks right now.

The play for today is ac####.

Uh? If that's what you think, I don't understand why you're not asking who his targets are.

On the off chance that Zwet is town he might hit a scum. If he is scum, both of his targets will be townies.

Lynching him now will have no effect on his plague results, and no matter if he is town or scum he will die with his choices. He shouldn't claim them in either respect. The best plan on zwet is to leave him to answer for his plagues tomorrow. The BEST plan was to lynch him yesterday to prevent him from using his plagues, but instead we lynched Ort-Town.

Here is hoping that he doesn't blow the game up, cheers.

[Kinetic]

Uh huh so the scum can speed-apothecary. You wish, fool.

Don't you need to use the Apothecary BEFORE being plagued?

No, we have a draft coming up which if you pull an apoth from you can use it on yourself and stop any plague that is on your or ever will be on you.

[Kinetic]

While I was all for lynching zwet yesterday, at this point I'd rather see who his plague targets were before we lynch him because they may be very revealing toward alignment. I feel that means waiting until tomorrow at least before moving on zwet, no matter how scummy he looks right now.

I really don't see how this is a reason for us to let him live another day.

Because there is another scum buddy out there if he is scum and we can still try to lynch him.

Because zwet has done his 'damage' and we now can tell a lot more about his alignment depending on who he kills.

Because you are more scummy than he is right now if you don't understand that.

If zwet somehow plagues a scum, there is little reason to think of him has scum. If we lynch him today and a scum dies from plague tomorrow, well then aren't you going to feel dumb as we tie a noose around your neck and lynch you DGB?

No, patience on a zwet lynch. He is not the right play today for multiple reasons. We can lynch him tomorrow if need be, but he should have been lynched yesterday before he got his plagues off. Now we have to wait to see what comes out of them.

In the mean time, lets lynch the much scummier AC, gogo!

[Kinetic]

Because there is another scum buddy out there

if

he is scum and we can still try to lynch him.

Uh??? You think zwet is scum and you want to let him live because you'd rather lynch zwet's buddy? What????

I bolded the word that you either missed or blatantly ignored to get your point across.

Because zwet has done his 'damage' and we now can tell a lot more about his alignment depending on who he kills.

No... if he kills two townies, which is likely given his "scumdar" if he's town, and a "given" if he's scum, are you going to know anything about his alignment? No.

If that happens there will be little more gained, but that is not the only outcome or possibility and ignoring the other possibilities, especially ones that might clear him is blatantly scummy.

Because you are more scummy than he is right now if you don't understand that.

That's debatable.

Yup, it sure is. But I'm not the only one saying it.

If zwet somehow plagues a scum, there is little reason to think of him has scum. If we lynch him today and a scum dies from plague tomorrow

Well, that's true. But I'm certain that one of his choices is me. And perhaps his other choice is Kast, which might explain why Kast wasn't nightkilled. However, I'm more confident that zwet is scum than any other player. So I'm torn.

This is why he isn't the best play for today, he is a much better play tomorrow after we learn more. Unfortuantly as a townie your best play in the upcoming draw is to keep yourself alive.

No, patience on a zwet lynch. He is not the right play today for multiple reasons. We can lynch him tomorrow if need be, but he should have been lynched yesterday before he got his plagues off. Now we have to wait to see what comes out of them.

That's what I was trying to say yesterday. How come no one listened?

I did. I was voting him, I pushed for him, no one else followed and they lynched Ort.

O well, its in the past now, no reason to make bad decisions now because bad decisions were made previously.

[Kinetic]

@Kinetic-
If we were one day back, I would completely agree with your argument for waiting on a Zwet lynch.

However, I think it loses some steam now because if Zwet is scum, then we are already practically in Lylo. There are 8 players alive now 6/2 T/M. If Zwet is scum, then we lose if his targets don't get apothecaries:
-Mislynch: 5/2
-NK: 4/2
-Plagues: 2/2

People should try to lynch whoever they feel is the most likely to be scum, even if that person is Zwet.

If that's the case then maybe we should have Zwet claim his targets. It will better help us decide his lynch and make a 3/2 event if we mislynch a much higher chance with Apoths coming out, no?

[Kinetic]

Alright, in that case I don't think a Zwet lynch is viable or needed today.

I say we lynch AC####, go into night, if you can Apoth yourself (if your townie obviously, scum can do whatever they want ) do so, if not doctor or Sanc and try and block the scum if possible.

I'm thinking we need to try and lynch scum, go into night with a survivor mentality, and hope for the best.

[Kinetic]

1 AceMarksman (ac1983fan)

I've switched my vote to Kinetic.
Also, Rishi, there are several other people who haven't voted yet today. There's no real case on zwet, other than the fact that he doubled his plague. There are real cases on Kinetic and AM.

And by real, he means scum cases.

[Kinetic]

1 AceMarksman (ac1983fan)

I've switched my vote to Kinetic.
Also, Rishi, there are several other people who haven't voted yet today. There's no real case on zwet, other than the fact that he doubled his plague. There are real cases on Kinetic and AM.

And by real, he means scum cases.

Oh hahaha Kinetic. This snide comment had me rolling on the floor laughing my fucking ass off. Seriously, the fact that you haven't even tried to really contribute during the past couple of pages, and continue to say that I need to be lynched, despite the fact that one of the reasons I am supposedly scummy is because I was tunneling you, is really not helping my viewpoint of you. In fact, that is mostly why I switched my vote back to you.

I love how the only people who want me lynched are those who I think are scum.

Un hunh. Exactly ac####, you've found us out. The entire scum team thinks YOU are the biggest threat to the scum.

You can belittle the cases all you want, but I'm pretty sure you're scum, much more so than anyone else, and so I'm going to get you lynched.

gg, hf, bbq

[Kinetic]

That is untrue. AC is at deadline lynch threshold.

Ironically, Zwet was going to be the lynch until Kast unvoted. Makes me wonder why Kast did that for a Looker vote which is, pretty much useless...

[Kinetic]

Here is what I think the Kast situation has just revealed:

I have to decide if I think Kast or DGB is more likely scum. If I feel DGB is more likely scum than AC is the buddy she is protecting right now with her comments. If I feel Kast is more likely scum than his move just now was a subtle protection of zwet who he was just trying to bus.

[Kinetic]

Well what cards does Pooky have (or had I suppose) then?

[Kinetic]

Good job Kast. You made the mod cry.

[Kinetic]

I don't see how this changes anything at all, and I see no reason to abandon the game because of it.

It changes things because scum could have gotten an easy lynch on Pooky -OR- this might confirm Pooky who may or may not be scum.

[Kinetic]

unvote

alright then, I guess Pooky isn't lying then...
Well, regardless, I still want to lynch Kinetic or AM, althoguh I'm starting to lean more on AM at this point... But I guess I could go for a zwet lynch if there is no better wagon that comes along.

You can want to lynch me all you want, but you should just roll over and die like a good scum.

[Kinetic]

Well, regardless, I still want to lynch Kinetic or AM, althoguh I'm starting to lean more on AM at this point... But I guess I could go for a zwet lynch if there is no better wagon that comes along.

Soft support of three wagons says what?

Why is it that in this game, stating my opinions is a scumtell?

Because said opinions tend to be scummy and/or something scum would do?

[Kinetic]

I believe that at least one, if not two of the scum are in the following group:
*AM
*Kinetic
*Pooky
*Rishi

so yeah, either I get hammered now or get deadlined, unless everybody not currently voting me wants to vote one of those four, or one of the people voting me wants to change.

This is a TOWN reaction. ^^^^

What I see, and what I've seen all game from him is he is throwing paint at the wall and trying to see what sticks. There are only 2 scum left, and he makes a group of more than half the town and states "Maybe 1, maybe both of the scum are here". His group of suspects is incredibly large and he constantly is willing to go for "whoever".

He switched to Ort yesterday after pushing other wagons all day, and then when right back to work the next day pushing anything that might work. As soon as he got pressure back at him he folded and painted everyone who was voting him as scum.

The only person (oddly enough) that he hasn't attacked is Zwet.

[Kinetic]

He switched to Ort yesterday after pushing other wagons all day, and then when right back to work the next day pushing anything that might work. As soon as he got pressure back at him he folded and painted everyone who was voting him as scum.

The only person (oddly enough) that he hasn't attacked is Zwet.

That is such a freaking misrepresentation of what happened, I found AM and you scummy since before you were voting me. I switched to ort because I found ort scummy to a degree and his lynch was inevitable. I've been pushing wagons on people I believe are scum.

You found a large number of people scummy, which was convenient because when people started thinking you were scummy you could say "I thought you were scummy first".

Your entire defense constituted "the people trying to lynch me are scum"

Now your "list" includes just under half the town and you "think" there might be one scum in it. Well damn, there are 2 scum left, if you take any 4 random players the odds are high you'll pick one of the scum.

The problem is, you can't narrow. Three of the four people you mentioned are voting to lynch you. The other (Rishi) while lurking, is just another easy target.

You have not tried to go against the grain ONCE in this game, every single thought you have had was not original.

[Kinetic]

To be consistent, AC should vote himself. He did the same for Ort, I feel if he is town he would make the same decision in similar circumstances.

[Kinetic]

PTMB is only viable if someone on the ACFan wagon is willing to move.

Otherwise it will at best reach a tie and ties are "first come, first served".

It doesn't look like things are going to change.

The issue I would have if we had two wagons come up to 4 is if both were townies (low chance I suppose, but still) scum won't have a preference.

The fact that ac is floating either means he's a townie with a 1-2 scum on him already and other townies are being cautious or he is scum and either his partner is already bussing or trying to start a counter wagon at this point.

Do you see any other possibility Kast at this point?

[Kinetic]

The only thing I would chance is that if ACFan is scum, I think it is more likely that his partner is trying to start a counter wagon than that his partner is bussing.

The change of a single person away from ACFan would probably be sufficient to secure a lynch on another player.

Hence why I'm not likely going to change my vote off AC at this time.

[Kinetic]

@DGB-
If you decided to hammer ACFan in response to my post, and ACFan flipped scum, I would not think that clears you as a townie.

Agreed.

Kast, do you also see the reasons why I cannot clear you either, and in fact if ac flips scum you'll be one of my prime suspects?

[Kinetic]

Just to remind all townies, your highest priority this Draft is to STAY ALIVE.

Apoth, Sanc and Doctor are the best cards to take. If you can draft one, do it and use it.

[Kinetic]

God damn it Zwet.

Seriously.

And no one drew an Apoth card?

[Kinetic]

I was so convinced Kast was scum, but I was convinced his buddy was ac. The way he was acting at the end of D3 had me almost sure of it.

Bleh.