Not only am I not scum, I've already cleared a player as not scum. I'm THAT good.charter wrote:There are so many people that need voting out. AHHHHH, I can't decide!
vote Kinetic
If you're scum, the game is already lost.
Mini #764: Notre Dame Mafia, Game Over
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Although to be fair, that was for Best Replacement, and I also won the Mafia Catcher award for best town of the year... Not to toot my own horn.charter wrote:I was his scumbuddy in a game and nom'ed him for a scummy for best scum and he won. So yes, I'd say he's good at being scum, though I don't see any way he can fakeclaim his way to victory in this game.
Also, I wouldn't worry too much about replacements. That newbie game was probably the worst in terms of needing replacements (three people and a mod day one) I've ever seen.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Ummm no. I've cleared a player already. I'd say its approximately 90% chance this player is town.charter wrote:
Ehhhh, I dont know. This doesn't sound very convincing.Kinetic wrote:
Not only am I not scum, I've already cleared a player as not scum. I'm THAT good.charter wrote:There are so many people that need voting out. AHHHHH, I can't decide!
vote Kinetic
If you're scum, the game is already lost.
Serious though, I think I might know what you're talking about, but I believe it would require a massclaim of cards, yes? Not sure if that is a good idea right now.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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I've seriously thought about this already. However I think you might be mistaken on a few things. I'm not going to out them exactly yet, but it depends on the course you're planning on working here...charter wrote:unvote, vote ABR
Serious vote. Will explain later.
Also, if you're town, you will notice that there's extra lines at the end of your role PM than the one posted. Hopefully my telling you this convinces you I cannot possibly be scum, so please at least give the massclaim idea thought.
I think we should massclaim cards. There's good reason for this, but I won't explain unless we decide to do this and then after we do it. Of course there is the argument that scum knows what everyone has, but after two nights, it won't matter anyway. I think the knowledge town gains from doing this can catch at least one scum immediately. Please at least consider it before you shoot it down.
Also, consider this: Depending on where they are on the player list, scum may already know about 50-60% of the cards in play, maybe more if they're smart.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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I wasn't asking you to clarify, I already deduced this possibility on my own. Also, I've deduced a few other things which I'm also keeping quiet for now. Put me on the tentativecharter wrote:Further elaboration. As long as the mafia didn't plan for a massclaim (unlikely as it's rarely done for who knows what reason) and they aren't all next to each other on the player list, I think my plan will work. They can't lie about their choices or we will know (unless they're all next to each other). I've probably said too much, sorry I can't elaborate any further right now.
Please don't ask me to clarify either, if you are skeptical just say so and we can procede with normal scumhunting.forat this time if you're making a list.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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I didn't think it did, I was merely pointing out that a mass claim will help town a lot more than scum since town will learn about approximately 80% more information while scum will only learn 50-60% more information.charter wrote:
My plan doesn't require them knowing which cards are in play, if that has any bearing on whether you're willing to give it a shot or not.Kinetic wrote:Actually, did the math, the max the scum can know in play right now is 50% of the cards, assuming perfect distribution, which is possible. Either way they know 40-50% of the cards currently in play.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Exactly. While each player can know at most 6 of the cards in player, which is approximately 22% of the cards in play.charter wrote:
There's 36 cards total (12 players, 3 cards each)ortolan wrote:can you explain your maths on the percentage of cards the mafia might know Kinetic
At this point I think a mass-claim's a decent idea.
If scum were ideally spaced on the playerlist (ie 1, 4, 8) then they would know the original three cards they were given, plus the two passed to them, plus the one passed to them, for a total of six cards known per scum, times three scum, is 18 cards. At most 50% of the cards.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Err, sorry, its closer to 17%, which added up is approximately 82% of the cards are unknown to each townie. Did the math earlier and was just trying to remember off the top of my head.Kinetic wrote:
Exactly. While each player can know at most 6 of the cards in player, which is approximately 22% of the cards in play.charter wrote:
There's 36 cards total (12 players, 3 cards each)ortolan wrote:can you explain your maths on the percentage of cards the mafia might know Kinetic
At this point I think a mass-claim's a decent idea.
If scum were ideally spaced on the playerlist (ie 1, 4, 8) then they would know the original three cards they were given, plus the two passed to them, plus the one passed to them, for a total of six cards known per scum, times three scum, is 18 cards. At most 50% of the cards.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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They don't need to know exacts. Its a puzzle, things will fall into place . If things don't then someone is lying. And Liars are scum.ortolan wrote:I'm pretty sure that each player knows the cards they have, plus one card the person after them has, plus two cards one of which the person after them has and the other which the person after the person after them has, but they don't know which.
So really, they have less than a 50% knowledge of who has what card.
Your point is noted though, collectively they do have more knowledge than any one townie so a mass-claim would be good to counter-act that and catch lying scum.
What format should the claim be in?
I suggest, you tell what 3 cards you drew first, which one you kept and the two you passed. The two cards you got from the next person, which one you picked and which one you passed, and your last card.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Plus, I said they know 50% of the cards in play, not who has them.Kinetic wrote:
They don't need to know exacts. Its a puzzle, things will fall into place . If things don't then someone is lying. And Liars are scum.ortolan wrote:I'm pretty sure that each player knows the cards they have, plus one card the person after them has, plus two cards one of which the person after them has and the other which the person after the person after them has, but they don't know which.
So really, they have less than a 50% knowledge of who has what card.
Your point is noted though, collectively they do have more knowledge than any one townie so a mass-claim would be good to counter-act that and catch lying scum.
What format should the claim be in?
I suggest, you tell what 3 cards you drew first, which one you kept and the two you passed. The two cards you got from the next person, which one you picked and which one you passed, and your last card.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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It will, I'm not sure what charter's plan is, but my own sees it a way to catch scum with it. Multiple, in fact.Slicey wrote:The thing is, I'm not sure how this is going to help us catch scum. They have no reason to lie about what cards they have. I'm still for it, that way town has more info, but it's not gonna bring us any closer to catching scum.
That format of claiming sounds fine.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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It's an AMAZINGLY scummy set of cards, looking at it in the stupid way that Kast has.Budja wrote:As someone who supported a massclaim, thats a pretty scummy set of cards .
Why did you take the plague?
First, I wanted a mass claim because I knew most of the town might not realize the important of some cards.
Such as: If you pass a 1/4 NK, you are a COMPLETE AND UTTER ANTI-TOWN IDIOT. Phew. Got that off my chest. Scum can only get a total of 3 1/4s from their own draw. Thus in order for them to NEVER get an additional NK from those cards all town has to do is choose cards defensively first. I was passed the 1/4th NK (and the Rat), two AMAZING scum cards, and because of that I feel the person passing them to me (KidIcarus) is most likely town because of it.
I chose the 1/4th kill so I could burn it and scum cannot use it.
I chose plague for the same reason. I drew Plague, Mimic and Apothacary. I could have taken Apoth, used it on myself, and been immune to plague all game. Instead, I took the plague and made sure no one else could use it.
My second set was Mimic/ 1/4th NK. Seriously, I could have pulled a Plague/Mimic combo off the first two night phases if I was scum. I chose the NK to both prevent scum from getting it (in case the person after me was scum) and to burn it.
My third card was Rat. Which, is worst than 1/4th NK, and will most likely be my discarded card.
I supported mass claim because I wanted to look at exactly what people drew and I wanted them to explain WHY they drew such cards. The fact is Kast FUCKED a lot of that up by explaining PERFECT SCUM STRATEGY to the scum and the town. I wanted to scum hunt. I knew everything he stated already, but I was keeping it to myself so that I could see if anyone slipped and help use that to determine their alignment.
Was it full-proof, absolutely going to catch every scum. No, I never said it was.
Could it have? Yes.
Will it now? No.
Also, the main reason I wanted mass claim was so that people were forced to stick with the claim in the mid-late game when people were drawing the last of their cards. If no one claimed their plague and all of a sudden 3 plague victims died, that would be quite suspicious.
The fact remains, Kast completely blew it. Completely.
He did EXACTLY what scum should do, and he warned his scum buddies to what might happen.
I still want to go forth with the Mass Claim so that I can tack people to their claims for later, but I doubt it will catch any scum now. Once that is done, I plan I pushing for Kast's lynch.
He is either scum or an incredibly idiotic townie. Either way, I don't mind lynching him to find out which at this point.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Based on perfect card drawing, the cop cards are virtually useless and are extremely low on the totem poll for any townie to grab. It sucks, but that is the way of it.Budja wrote:Considering I am after you, I can confirm you are not lying about the cards you passed.
@Kinetic, what do you think of this -
Kast seems to be making a valid point here.Kast wrote: It will allow scum to kill dangerous investigative roles and plan around protections.
As for the protections, unless you decided we also must claim who we are protecting, it isn't going to do that. Since this isn't a doctor where they can protect every night, killing someone on the night they use their protection is at best idiotic and at worst counterproductive.
Actually, originally I was not going to mention this, however it might help our players for protections:
The people who should MOST likely gain protections from players who have them now is those who have not drawn their protection cards yet. These are the players more likely to draw them and use them in the late game when it matters.
Scum's best strategy is to eliminate players who haven't yet drawn cards which are good for town, and keep players who have cards which are good for scum left to draw.
By protecting the players with good draws left we force the scum to kill less optimal players and therefore gain an advantage.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Second Draft
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1/4-Shot Nightkill
1-Shot Rat
1-Shot Plague
1-Shot Doctor
1-Shot Sanctuary
1-Shot Apothecary
1-Shot Mimic
1-Shot Double
1/2-Shot Cop Card
Third Draft
1/4-Shot Nightkill
1-Shot Rat
1-Shot Sanctuary
1-Shot Doctor
1/2-Shot Cop Card
1-Shot Mimic
1-Shot Apothecary
1-Shot Double
1-Shot Plague
For every townie this should be your draft priority list. I'm giving you this so your second and third drafts won't be idiotic.
Second Draft
Here is why:
If you are townie you CANNOT pass a 1/4th NK. It means that the Scum get a NK for free. During Day 1 drafting Plague first is the best bet because it is much more likely for Plague to strike a hit in the early game than in the end game. However, by the second draft there will already be some Apothacaries around, significantly limiting the likelihood of a Plague on Night 5/6 (which is the earliest a plague will hit from the second draft. Due to the delay on Plague, Rat is even better than it in the second draft. (In the first Draft Plague was better than Rat though)
Rat takes second, and some people might wonder why its ahead of Doctor. On the second draft Rat is such a powerful card and directly counters Doctor and Sanc. If you choose Doctor over Rat, and you pass the Rat to a scum, you're making a bad choice. The scum will just use the Rat to bypass the Doctor card you took. The scum cannot use the doctor card, its useless for them, but you giving them a Rat card could stop your doctor or someone elses Sanc.
The two safety cards are next, and are by far the best town cards in the game. If you pull one of these and don't need to draft defensively and also can pull a double or mimic you're golden. And Ideal draft would be a Double/Mimic, Sand/Doc, and a .25NK/Rat to discard.
Apoth is next. It is sort of the little safety card that could. If you have it, use it, either on yourself or a townie as you see fit.
Double/Mimic should only be drawn depending on your other drafts and should never be your first draft. Mimic beats double because it could technically be a good first draft if you've already used a doc, sanc, or apoth. Otherwise its a wasted card. Again, Double is the same way, but you need to draft one of those three cards for it to be useful, a much harder job.
1/2 cop is last for multiple reasons. One, scum have no use for this card, so its not a bad card to send to them. Two, because you need two of them, you need to understand that its OK to pass this card. If you can draft a 1/2 Cop with your last pick, and play it (with a good ditch card, like Rat), it could set you up for a good third draft.
Third Draft:
You'll notice several cards have changed.
1/4 NK and Rat are still by and far the best early drafts for town for purely defensive purposes.
Doc/Sanc move up a spot. Personally I feel Sanc starts to be stronger for townies late game than Doc, but to each his own.
1/2 Cop makes a jump, but you should only draft this if you've already drafted a 1/2 Cop and used it. A late game cop isn't bad, but generally protections are still better (since its difficult to trust a late game cop).
Mimic gains strength in the late game, especially if you've played a Doc or Sanc. If you have, draw a Mimic as if it was a Doc or Sanc at this point.
Apoth drops below Cop mainly because by this point plague is not a strong card, thus its counter isn't very strong either. Its not a bad draw if you're forced into it, but I doubt I'd take it.
Double is virtually useless at this point. Seeing as the earliest you'll be able to double a card is Night six from the third draft.
Plague is terribad for everyone. Even if you drew the plague and used it Night 5, it wouldn't take effect until Night 7. The game most likely will be over by then, and if it isn't, it will end in a town loss day 7 anyway.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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One because I can, and two because its better than using Rat. Plus I've never been a Vig and kind of want to do it, lol. I'll claim who I killed Day 4 if I'm still alive.AceMarksman wrote:
Why?Kinetic wrote:I do plan on using my plague as a vig would.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Or Day 2 or 3 if I suddenly feel that person is town so someone can maybe send them an Apoth.Kinetic wrote:
One because I can, and two because its better than using Rat. Plus I've never been a Vig and kind of want to do it, lol. I'll claim who I killed Day 4 if I'm still alive.AceMarksman wrote:
Why?Kinetic wrote:I do plan on using my plague as a vig would.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Ha. I'm not telling the town the day afterword unless I feel them town. Scum can use Apoths too you know, and are much more likely to do so if they get the chance. They don't need an Apoth now, they could draw one next draw which happens Night 3. Actually, that is an interesting questionAceMarksman wrote:*adds Kinetic to the list of people I don't trust with a plague*
Plagueing someone without 1) getting the town's consensus before hand 2) telling the town the day afterwords is scummy. There's no pro-town motivation to killing someone without the consent of the town.
Mod: Will a player targeted by Plague on Night 1 be able to use the card they draft Night 3 before plague would kill them.
Either way, what do you think a vig is? I'm going to look deep at the players and target the person highest on my scum list. I'm not going to randomly target, and I'm not hiding that I'm going to use it. I'm being very open with that fact. I could have hidden the fact that I've already drawn mine and player clueless when someone died. -.-Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Bullshit ABR. You care about consensus about as much as a sun cares about the moon. You just want YOUR input.Albert B. Rampage wrote:
Yup I agree.AceMarksman wrote:*adds Kinetic to the list of people I don't trust with a plague*
Plagueing someone without 1) getting the town's consensus before hand 2) telling the town the day afterwords is scummy. There's no pro-town motivation to killing someone without the consent of the town.
Anyway, its impossible to get that consensus because the consensus requires us to inform scum of our target and that is a bad idea.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Apoth is slightly useful. Cop is virtually useless (unless you've already drafted one and used it). If you haven't drafted a .5 Cop yet, drafting one now is a bad move. If you already have one, drafting a second is a decent play.AceMarksman wrote:Vote:Kinetic
Here’s why:
First, he tries to set up everyone’s draft picks for the next two drafts in his post 88 leaving cards that would help the scum (mimic and double) near the bottom, and putting some that town might need (apoth, cop) near the bottom (putting cop on the very bottom second draft). This doesn’t help the town at all.
Mimic and Double are good scum cards? Pray tell how. Plague, Rat, Doc, Sanc, and Apoth are the only cards that can be mimiced or doubled. Of those, only plague is any use to be mimiced or doubled by scum. By draft 2, Plague is becoming a more useless card, and its absolutely horrid draft 3. Rat is useless to double, and not very good to mimic (although it is better than Plague in draft 2, something I didn't think of but which doesn't majorly change its rank). The other three cards are better for townie all around to be mimiced or doubled.
Yet I find it funny, since you accuse me of both putting townie AND scum good cards near the bottom. Guess what, all the cards have some gain for townie or for scum. Make your list and I'll criticize that. I've ranked the cards, and that means some cards are better plays then other.
Are you going to tell me that Half of a Cop is a better pull than Plague? Than Doc? Then Sanc? Or Double. Double is a HORRID card. Its by far the worst card in the game, but it has some uses. Mimic can be OK, but it all depends on your previous drafts.
But again, post your list, what order would YOU put them in?
Correction: I SUPPORTED a plague claim. I didn't bring it up first, but I think its a good idea. Guess what, I'm not alone.AceMarksman wrote:Next, he asks for a Plague claim (along with everyone else, including me) In 108.
The town motivation is simple. I have to use it or Rat. Rat is useless for townie, Plague has a chance to kill a scum. I plan on targeting a scum with it.
Problem is, if I announce my target, and my target IS scum, then the scum will just protect him. Hell, the TOWN might protect him.
There is a higher chance of a scum gaining protection from it that a townie, and thus I cannot take that chance. I plan on choosing who I think is most likely scum, and I fully intend to claim my kill and everything it entails. I've been upfront about it and not hiding.
I continue to assert, plague was not passed to me, there is no chance if I had kept quiet that I would be caught using the card. What benefit is it to me to be this open about it if I'm scum?
Correction: I didn't insult ABR, I called bullshit on him. ABR is an extremely aggressive player who cares highly about his own ego. Mark my words, if he had a plague card he would use it without a second thought if anyone else had any input.AceMarksman wrote:Then he goes on to insult ABR in post post 122 for agreeing with my assessment of Kinetic’s plague card choice.
The fact that he wants consensus in this game and not others is extremely scummy. He only wants to control the kill and I refuse to let him.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Well, if you wanted to double plague, you'd have to play double first. Then on Night 2 You'd be able to use Plague twice.
I'd highly suggest NOT doing that. One plague is a lot, 2 is crazy.
What you should do, is use plague night 1, like I am, and if you don't like your target anymore announce it during the day to see if someone can throw an Apoth at it during N2 before the Plague resolves on Day 3.
Use Double on Night 2 and during your draft the card you want to draft would be Doctor. Whoever is above you should also look to pass you a doc if they're town.
If a Doc isn't possible then an Apoth isn't a bad second choice with an active double going into N2, or if you're unlucky just pull a card that can't be doubled and use it N3. It will waste the double effect but its better than being forced to double a rat or a plague day 3.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Yea, I pretty much feel the same way, I just got this weird "I'm going to bombard you with this so you can't possibly think I'm scum" vibe, and its irritating me more than anything.populartajo wrote:
Seriously I hate the Goomba but I dont think he is scum.Kinetic wrote:TL;DR, Kast just tried to kill me with a Wall of Text.Vote:KastDiescumdie.
You should know this, Kinetic.
My other comments later this night. Im at work right now.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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My main issue with it is you're forcing townies to gather more than they're fair share of 1/4th NK cards instead of other cards which may be more beneficial to the town.
In my plan (every townie is responsible for their own 1/4 NK card) we may not catch a scum on virtue of an extra NK being used, however we guarantee that an extra NK will NOT happen.
In your plan you're forcing what may be 4 townies to collect a card which may not be useful to them or the town, and pass cards which might (doctors, apoths, sancs, etc), because if they pass a 1/4 NK that was passed to them it would go against your plan.
Not to mention that a lot of your posts just rankle my nerves. When I have more time to read the books you post I'll be able to put my finger on the why, but otherwise it is just a feeling.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Hi, I'm lurking, I know it. Things piling up. Test due before Friday, Dentist appointment Friday, Grandparents 50th Wedding Anniversary on Saturday.
Ugh.
And this isn't an easy game just to skin, Kast's posts make me want to dig even deeper than I normally do, and his challenges (calling everything I do craplogic) are peeving me to the core.
I can't make a significant contribution until I get these things squared away though. I'm still here, I will catch up. I like my vote for now.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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*Attempted to hurt.charter wrote:
Anyone who targeted CTD with anything but helpful cards is possible scum. He was easily one of the top three townies. The fact that you hurt one of the main drivers of Budjascum's lynch is incredibly damning. I could lynch you too.Kinetic wrote:Oddly enough, my plague is useless...
I targeted CTD. Had a feeling. Meant to re-read and confirm before I was sure. I guess that feeling was wrong too >>.
Guys, I can 100% guarentee Ort is scum. Lets lynch him.
Plus, your reasoning makes no logical sense.
1) If I was scum, why would I ever claim to have targeted CTD? There isn't a tracker card, no one would know. Not to mention the fact that I do have (and still have) a Rat card. I could easily use my lurking to distance myself from the CTD kill with no one being the wiser.
2) If I was scum why would I waste my plague on CTD and then use the team kill to kill him out right. That makes 0 sense. Why waste a delayed kill by using the real kill on top of it?
3) The only possible explanation for a plague from a mafia on someone they were using their team kill on is if they feared a doc. The fact that we have a doc claim, and the kill went through ANYWAY means that the mafia used a Rat or the Doc is lying. If the Mafia really used a Rat, a Plague AND a team kill on CTD, don't you think that is a TAD overkill?
4) I targeted CTD because I didn't have a lot of time and I was looking for he bus. I know someone was bussing Budja in my gut and CTD's vote looked like it was primly placed to be the driver. I don't think both scum are on the BUS, the counter wagon was too close for that, but I'm feeling pretty strong that at least one of the scum was on it.
5) The only way you can be 100% on someone is if you're scum or have the Cop card and a result on them. Seeing as the latter is impossible until at least night 2 it makes me question exactly how sure you are about this. Are you overstating yourself a little bit?
Get a clue please. Still reading, I'm not liking charter honestly in my re-read, more on that later.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Wait, what? Got it, in your head if something has a scummy reasoning behind it cannot have a non-scummy reasoning?charter wrote:
The fact that you're attempting to justify your action is so horribly anti town, words can not describe it. If it weren't for the fact that ortolan is EXTREMELY OBVIOUS scum, you would be swinging from the noose today.Kinetic wrote:
*Attempted to hurt.charter wrote:
Anyone who targeted CTD with anything but helpful cards is possible scum. He was easily one of the top three townies. The fact that you hurt one of the main drivers of Budjascum's lynch is incredibly damning. I could lynch you too.Kinetic wrote:Oddly enough, my plague is useless...
I targeted CTD. Had a feeling. Meant to re-read and confirm before I was sure. I guess that feeling was wrong too >>.
Guys, I can 100% guarentee Ort is scum. Lets lynch him.
As a member of the town it is my responsibility to argue my reasoning and prove there is a townie reason behind it.
You may not agree with those reasons, but the fact that I am presenting them cannot be taken as scummy.
And your thinly veiled threats have no backing. You have one vote just like everyone else.
In your opinion. I love how you put yourself on that list though.
No, it makes perfect sense, literally any player besides CTD, kast, or myself would have been a better use of that card, even yourself, and by a wide margin.Plus, your reasoning makes no logical sense.
It isn't WIFOM, its straight logical sense. There is no compelling reason to tie myself to CTD's death. What do I gain by it?
If I was scum, I would even bother to read this. WIFOM defense is entirely ignored.1) If I was scum, why would I ever claim to have targeted CTD? There isn't a tracker card, no one would know. Not to mention the fact that I do have (and still have) a Rat card. I could easily use my lurking to distance myself from the CTD kill with no one being the wiser.
How can you just ignore sense!? My use of plague on CTD if I were mafia is mindbogglingly dumb.
Yeah, I didn't read this either. See number one.2) If I was scum why would I waste my plague on CTD and then use the team kill to kill him out right. That makes 0 sense. Why waste a delayed kill by using the real kill on top of it?
Right. You've read my games before? At the beginning of this game you said about me:
Clearly at least one of you and ort is lying, in all liklihood both.3) The only possible explanation for a plague from a mafia on someone they were using their team kill on is if they feared a doc. The fact that we have a doc claim, and the kill went through ANYWAY means that the mafia used a Rat or the Doc is lying. If the Mafia really used a Rat, a Plague AND a team kill on CTD, don't you think that is a TAD overkill?
Now the reason I bring this up, is that there is absolutely NO WAY if I used a card on CTD it would be figured out. Why would I claim it? For what reasoning?So yes, I'd say he's good at being scum
Plus, if BOTH Ort and I are lying, why in the bloody hell would we do it? I'd like to here your reasoning behind why we would both lie...
Un hunh. -.-; That was your opinion. My differed. I never claimed we would come to the same conclusions.
There were two acceptable cards to use on CTD. Those are the 1 shot doctor, and the 1 shot apothecary. CTD was clearly not bussing. Rishi or ort were clearly bussing. Your explaination is poor and unacceptable.4) I targeted CTD because I didn't have a lot of time and I was looking for he bus. I know someone was bussing Budja in my gut and CTD's vote looked like it was primly placed to be the driver. I don't think both scum are on the BUS, the counter wagon was too close for that, but I'm feeling pretty strong that at least one of the scum was on it.
Wow... did you really say "No, you!"? Stop acting childish. I've already told you why I did. I'm not making a case on CTD, I didn't have one. Shoot down what? All you are doing is puffing up your chest and shouting.
Piss poor argument. I overstate all the time. Please try and describe how it's a scumtell, because you will be shot down.5) The only way you can be 100% on someone is if you're scum or have the Cop card and a result on them. Seeing as the latter is impossible until at least night 2 it makes me question exactly how sure you are about this. Are you overstating yourself a little bit?
No, you get a clue. CTD was literally the worst possible target for a plague. Go ahead and give a case on me, I await the pleasure I will get from shooting it down.Get a clue please. Still reading, I'm not liking charter honestly in my re-read, more on that later.
-.-; I already said I wasn't reading much. I have been horribly behind in this game and the other game I'm playing. I made my choice because it was better than getting my Rat or Plague randomly chosen and randomly targeted. I didn't have a lot of time to decide so I quickly looked at vote counts and tried to make a decision from that.Sorry if this sounds rude or arrogant to anybody, but the only acceptable explaination I see to Kinetic plaging CTD is "I wasn't reading, I was wrong". The fact that he tries to defend himself is horribly scummy.
I was wrong to target him, but it doesn't make any difference now. I didn't kill him and if I felt like you did after re-reading I would have been able to say I targeted him today and hopefully get him an Apoth in the night.
Are you happy? Stop acting childish now, alright?Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Well I did...DrippingGoofball wrote:Kinetic.
I don't believe you used the plague on CTD.
So the whole argument falls apart.
If you are convinced of this, there is some way to prove it though.
First: We know about who could have used Plagues on Day 1. Assuming no one lied or failed to reveal.
Second: You know for certain what my other two cards we. 1/4 NK and Rat. You know this because the person who passed them to me confirmed it, and the person after me confirmed that they weren't passed to them.
Third: If I used my plague last night, that person will die tomorrow. If all the plague kills are claimed then you will know that I either A) Used my plague as I stated, or B) Did not use my plague.
Fourth: If the third event happens, then the beginning of the fourth day if there are plague deaths, and they are accounted for, then it is again proven that either A) I did not use my plague, or B) I used my plague as stated.
Unfortunately my other cards are hard to prove I still have by using. The 1/4th does nothing if I use it, and the Rat can only have Bad implications if I use it.
However, if I were scum there would be little reason not to use plague, and use it as soon as possible. While not a perfect defense the best proof that I used it as I have said would be depending on the deaths on Days 3 and 4.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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What, pray tell, is he trying to convince me?DrippingGoofball wrote:@ charter
Don't put un-necessary wear and tear on your typewriter arguing with Kinetic.
He's scum. You won't convince him.
More importantly, we need to know if he's willing to help, and bus ortolan.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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The more people clad themselves in the armor of a successful lynch the more my scumdar goes off and thinks it was a bus.charter wrote:That quote was directed at Kinetic, not you. Top three townies were kast, CTD, and myself, we were the three main drivers of the Budja lynch. We never waivered on it.
Just because you were correct then does not mean you can start ignoring valid arguments. Sit back and actually develop a case instead of going off half-assed just because your self-righteousness won't allow you to stay calm.
I think I have an idea. Much of the case that is on me is dependent on what card I used last night.
Zwet has a double plague coming up, why don't we, by threat of lynch, tell him to make one of his targets me?
Unless, that is, you want to let Zwet have free reign to choose two plague targets.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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I think the possibility exists and just because Budja was proven scum doesn't mean that you or DGB were proven otherwise. To think or say otherwise is misleading at best.AceMarksman wrote:
Are you just saying this or do you believe that DGB and I (or one or the other) are scum?Kinetic wrote:
You're making quite the claim here... There are three scum you know... Ace and DGB could be scum.charter wrote:Yes, thank you. This was exactly my point. You tried to get Ace or DGB lynched all day, rather than Budja. Budja was scum.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Good reasons? I just gave them. Stop chest pounding. There is no reason to keep reminding people you were on a lynch unless you are insecure for some reason.charter wrote:
Wait, who besides me has done this? If you're thinking bus, then you give good reasons for thinking that, not these unfounded accusations.Kinetic wrote:
The more people clad themselves in the armor of a successful lynch the more my scumdar goes off and thinks it was a bus.charter wrote:That quote was directed at Kinetic, not you. Top three townies were kast, CTD, and myself, we were the three main drivers of the Budja lynch. We never waivered on it.
Stop the hostility. Seriously, its getting annoying. The only reason you have placed to suspect me is because I targeted CTD with plague and you can't confirm it. Lynching me today before I can prove you wrong would be short sighted when there is a good chance where this can be disproved.charter wrote:
You clearly have not read this game. Bargaining like this is what sealed Budja's fate. I'd rather lynch you than let you weasel your way out. If you're scum, you can probably guarentee you won't die.Zwet has a double plague coming up, why don't we, by threat of lynch, tell him to make one of his targets me?
This is a decent compromise so that I don't "weasel [my] way out", yet there is still a chance that when there is some proof that things happened as I said it would that the kill can be prevented.
Yet from the way you're acting, you don't care if what will happen when I turn up town.
Stop acting self-righteous. Of course Budja was scum, but that doesn't mean someone is scummy for not suspecting him or for suspecting someone who could be scum. That is the point I'm trying to make here.
Could be scum? COULD BE!?!? Budja WAS scum.Kinetic wrote:
You're making quite the claim here... There are three scum you know... Ace and DGB could be scum.charter wrote:Yes, thank you. This was exactly my point. You tried to get Ace or DGB lynched all day, rather than Budja. Budja was scum.
You make it seem like Budja was the ONLY option when there are two other scum out there. The way you say it, with 100% 20/20 hindsight you are already declaring Budja the only scum option when there is no way to know that for sure yet.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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I still haven't read all of Day One. Other obligations (modding my own game, finals week, etc) have kept me from having the time. I really could only skim some of the days events and much of my determination on who might be the bus was based on quickly analyzing the vote counts. I felt CTD could be bussing, and because of the way Plagues are used if I felt otherwise I could announce it today and hope to get an Apoth sent to him.Kast wrote:@Kinetic-
-You've danced around this with Charter, but why would you target CTD? You said you suspect there is/was bussing going on, but in that case, there are 6 other players who could have been bussing. Why CTD? It seems...a suboptimal choice at best.
When he ended up the mafia kill I realized I must have made a mistake, and I announced it plainly because it was useless at this point. I hadn't thought of it then, but now that I think of it now, announcing it later would have been a worse play. Maybe I subconsciously knew that.
Although I don't have a lot of Day One posts, I know I addressed this. I felt Plague would be more and more useless the later in the game. I suppose I could have burned my 1/4th NK and then plagued Day 2, but I already stated I planned on Plaguing Night 1 and I went ahead with what I felt was my best choice with limited (granted, self limited) information.Kast wrote:-Why would you choose to use a plague right away instead of waiting until Night 2? Clearly you were mistaken about CTD; what made you so confident that he was scum that it was worth trying to kill him?
I am not strawmanning him, I'm pointing out that my choice makes no sense as scum.Kast wrote:-You are using a straw man against Charter. His point, if you are scum, is not that scum Kinetic used a plague on the same scum NK target. His point, if you are scum, is that you used the NK on CTD and you are lying about using plague on CTD.
Assuming I haven't used Plague, or that I used it on someone else, is answered later in this post because you asked a more relevant question and I can answer both there.
No. WiFoM assumes that there are relatively equal choices.Kast wrote:It is WiFoM to claim that you are a townie since scum would have no reason to claim using plague on CTD.
There is absolutely no reason to use a Plague on a target that was being planned as the Mafia NK.
I understand if you argue than that I must have not ever had Plague or didn't use it yet, but there is very very very little to gain using a delayed kill on a targeted kill, and much more to lose (not the least of which is another kill). I can at least disprove half of that tomorrow.
Talking in the third person now? lolKast wrote:-Please explain your comment from Day 1 to populartajo that you agree with him that Kast is probably a townie, but also that you are happy to leave your vote on Kast?
Basically I was starting to get very encumbered by my daily activities. I was still annoyed with you, but I didn't want to throw my vote out willynilly at anyone. I left my vote there because I felt there was very little chance of you being lynched and felt it was relatively safe.
Although you'll have to take my word on it, if you indeed came up to being lynched I would have unvoted and read the case and revoted if I felt you deserved to be lynched. My vote was far from concrete in any terms.
I already addressed this to the best of my ability multiple times. I don't exactly understand what you expect me to say. There isn't some major meta reasons, or anything else. I had to make a choice and I made it. It was a poor choice, but bad does not equal scum.Kast wrote:@Kinetic-
-Why did you claim to have targetted CTD with your plague? I don't see a strong motivation for either scum OR town to do so. I don't recall anyone calling for you to claim your night actions; if you are a townie, then you have just let scum know that they don't have to worry about being plagued by you. If you were attempting to "trick" scum, just FYI, I absolutely would not believe it if we entered Day 3 and a townie died to plague and you suddenly reversed your position and claimed you were attempting to trick scum (that would probably lead to your lynch).
There is no trick. I wasted my plague. I'm not going to claim any kills because none of them are mine.
I plan to, I seriously haven't had a lot of time but I don't want to skate on my commitments. I was a quick look to read him in isolation and I hoped it might give me some more information. It didn't.Kast wrote:@Kinetic-
Read Budja in context not isolation. Much of the reason for suspecting Budja was because of the context.
Reading him in context will take a lot longer unfortunately.
My feelings from this come more from another game and my personal feelings. (See War in Heaven, Large Theme). Multiple players claimed credit for a day 1 scum lynch and then used that as a mandate to then lynch something like 10 townies in a row.Kast wrote:@Kinetic, 768-
It is possible that Charter (or Kast, or anyone on Budja's wagon) was bussing. However, I don't get that impression about Charter at all. He had opportunities to get on a different wagon, and Budja was far from a sure lynch for most of Day 1. I doubt that Budja's lynch would have happened without Charter's support.
I also personally feel that sort of personal chest pounding is a useless activity which doesn't accomplish anything. If you did good, great, but it doesn't mean anything if you cannot repeat it. It only means that you got lucky.
If you can do it again, or do it consistently I'll be impressed. Until then it is just useless posturing and abhor it.
Again, as I said, I cannot disprove everything, and even the things I can prove will never be 100% (few things in this game ever are), but some points can be, I suppose reinforced is a better word, in Day 3 and Day 4 with the kills that will (or won't, as I know) come in.Kast wrote:
I must have missed something. How are you going to prove this?Charter, 793 wrote:Lynching me today before I can prove you wrong would be short sighted when there is a good chance where this can be disproved.
At the very least it can be proven that I didn't target anyone else with plague on Day 1.
It cannot be proven that I used plague on day 1 (only a kill could do that), or that I didn't use it on Day 2 (at least not until Day 4), or that I didn't dust the plague card (which, ironically, can never be proven since the Plague I drew was from my personal pile).Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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No, I was just pointing out something I thought interesting.AceMarksman wrote:
I take it you had intent of hammering ort?kinetic wrote: lol. Its funny, if I were to hammer ort it'd be a bus if he comes up scum and opportunistic scum if he comes up town.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Because I did... I noticed it, I even went so far as to double check that he was my target because I was surprised.Kast wrote:However, charter's speculation strikes at the heart of one of my outstanding questions to you; why did you choose to CLAIM your night 1 action? Nobody was pressing you to claim whether you used a plague (or anything else for that matter). I'd like to hear a reason for why you thought it would help the town to make that unprompted claim.
Charter has proposed a reason why Kinetic as scum would want to make that claim (hides your real night actions, sets up to "prove" that you did not plague any players other than CTD on Night 1).
I initially made CTD a conditional target and intended to go back, look over the thread, and maybe change it, but stuff came up and since I disappeared it was taken as my target.
Plus I already said previously I would claim my target after they died, I didn't expect them to die from something that wasn't my plague though. On Day 3 my target would have been asked for and if I said CTD then I'd have these questions (and maybe more) coming then.
Figured I'd just get it out of the way and we'd move on, I honestly didn't think it would be this big of a deal.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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That is part of the reason but not the only one. There were other motivations as well, such as I said I was going to use it Night 1. If someone was to kill me holding onto it would be useless. Pretty much all the reasons I gave night 1...Kast wrote:@Kinetic-
To be clear, your reason forUSINGthe plague on Night 1 is that you felt scum would be immune to plague on any future night?
To be clear, your reason for using the plague onCTDis that you felt the Budja lynch must have at least one scum, and you felt CTD was the most likely scum out of the seven players on the wagon.
Also to be clear, your reason forCLAIMINGyour night action is that you were afraid that people would be suspicious if you claimed on Day 3.
Is all of that correct?
On two, yes, based on my limited knowledge I felt that CTD could be the scum and he was my best guess.
Three, not exactly the only reason. My primary reason was I said I would and I thought it was interesting that he was killed which I have mentioned before. That reason was more something I thought after the fact when I said "If people are getting this bent out of shape today, just imagine what they would think if I'd claimed tomorrow".
Yes.Kast wrote:
Wait...I don't think I follow this part exactly.I initially made CTD a conditional target and intended to go back, look over the thread, and maybe change it, but stuff came up and since I disappeared it was taken as my target.
Does this mean you told PJ to use your Plague card against CTD unless you told him otherwise (and then you were gone so you never told him otherwise)?
If that is a correct understanding of what you posted, at what point in time did you decide on CTD as your target?
What made you decide on him as a target?
The day closed, I knew I needed to send in a target with a card or one would be randomized, I took about 5-10 minutes to pick a target on the first day of the night with the intent to come back and maybe switch it.
And how many times do I have to answer that question?
I've said my peace, at this point I'm done. I've answered 20 different times as honestly as I can, but now you're asking the same questions over and over. If you have anything else to ask I'll try to answer it but I'm not answering the same question I've already answered again.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Umm... Really? I was surprised he was Night Killed. What else would I have been surprised about?kast wrote:-If you picked CTD as your target at the beginning of the night, why were you surprised?
Between me choosing CTD as my plague target and me claiming him as my plague target CTD was Night Killed and revealed as town. I would have to point to that point when my opinion changed about him.The reason I asked you to clarify timing on that is because you had not done so before and your post reads ambiguously on the timing with an implication that some events happened between picking your target and claiming your target that changed your opinion about CTD.
I claimed I'd reveal my plague target after they were killed. Initially I was confused on when plagues would kill players and I stated I'd announce it Day 4. Claiming my plague target today or tomorrow would have made precious little difference to the point where I don't see how it is an issue.-To clarify then, your primary reason for claiming is that you said you would claim after your plague target died. Your next reason is that you thought it was interesting that CTD was killed.
I want to note that your primary reason doesn't exactly fit with what you promised. You promised to claim your plague kill. This was clearly not your plague kill (unless you have magically fast acting plagues). It may have been your plague target. The reasoning behind claiming a plague kill, does apply equally to this case (although that does not necessarily make it a scummy thing).
Either way, we both agree that I would have claimed it tomorrow. Claiming it today isn't as big of a deal as you are making it out to be.
I claimed it. Ok, maybe my reasoning wasn't perfect, but it was my internal reasoning. This isn't a question on your internal reasoning. If you were in the same position maybe you wouldn't have claimed. I did. Great. I get it. You're smarter than me. Can we PLEASE move on?Your secondary reason does not explain why you would want to claim your plague target.
I do still think so. CTD's death means he wasn't that person.-Do you still adhere to your belief that one player on Budja's lynch must be scum bussing Budja? How does CTD's death affect this?Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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