Mini 782 - And Then There Were None (Game Over)

[Budja]

vote: Shadowgirl

for been first on the list.

[Budja]

Hack poetry, where I played pretty badly as scum.

[Budja]

@Izzy, what was so awful about it?

I am fine on a name claim but I doubt its effectiveness as a scumhunting tool.

[Budja]

The mod is allowing us to quote role PMs. This seems to hint to me that the names are generally useless. I doubt it would help either scum or town.

[Budja]

Any original thoughts, insanepenguin?

[Budja]

The WIFOM from name claiming could act negatively or positively for both town finding suspects and scum choosing NKs.

So I still consider it fairly useless.

[Budja]

I doubt very much that scum could be caught out by this. All nameclaiming will do is introduce WIFOM.

[Budja]

Alright I'll make this clear, Looker,

Name-claiming will introduce WIFOM. As the mod is letting us quote role PM's, I seems pretty clear to me that claiming is not going to help us. The WIFOM comes from speculation whether certain names are power-roles (e.g. Armstrong) or scum (e.g. Wargrave).

[Budja]

@spring, I get your hint and you reasoning from this. However, your unwaivering insistance that Izzy is scum is hardly helpful. It sparked discussion and I agree with tajo that scum don't like to draw such attention to themselves so early.

Creative seems very over-defensive to me. There IS clearly an izzy situation.

After springs post, I am against the nameclaim.

[Budja]

@penguin, not reading the rules and knowing if the scum daytalk is a scumslip how? I assume the same as Phoebus and it is highly likely that tajo did too.

@Looker, is that post meant to actually mean anything, i.e. are those suspicions serious?

@Izzy, I was allowed to daytalk in scum in another one (now finished) of ThAdmiral's games. I don't think it is tied to the theme of this game.

A very quick turn-around from creative, which I find odd.

[Budja]

Looker, the "reasons" you gave were very silly(smart, clever). Intelligence is not a scum-tell.

[Budja]

@Looker, stop being purposely stupid.

You're bringing up scum blatantly rolefishing on page 1 as improbable.
You think I'd be brazen enough to keep pushing for something in a way that would attract me unwanted attention, if I were scum?

That hardly holds any water.

Attacking Izzy's idea would be much more likely to come off as pro-town than suggesting the idea itself.You are trying to push WIFOM into this and I am not keen on that.

I am getting scum-vibes from insane penguin. He really looks to me like he is trying to go with the flow and take the popular position.

unvote, vote insanepenguin

[Budja]

@ Looker, posts like "hi, I'm not paying attention" are useless and unhelpful. Don't make them.

IP seems to fence-sit before choosing a side and his 'analysis' seems to be a summary of others opinions. I'll grab some quotes when I have more time.

[Budja]

You scumhunting attempts come off a little forced to me Looker. Is there any purpose to these questions.
You are attacking creative and I am attacking IP but it is not both ways. A better choice for analysis would be tajo and spring which surprisingly are not on your list.

Also, those do those snippits of post-summary serve any real purpose, it looks like you are trying to look more active than you are.

I don't believe that suggesting a nameclaim is the obv scum move that Spring is stating. Suggesting a nameclaim is a (sortof) common way of leaving the random stage. Izzy seems to me like a clear 'easy target', regardless of alignment, I don't see how you have managed to explain otherwise.

[Budja]

With Spring and Tajo, I would say neither. I don't see either as scum right now.

@insane, simply belittling my case on you means nothing.

@looker, I am not super active right now but I don't pretend to be either. The filler is your posts is what I am concerned about. That's the point I am trying to make.

[Budja]

You are missing my point Looker .

I am saying that you look like you are trying to seem like you are posting more content than actually are with your summaries and questions like above.
My activity levels are completely unrelated to this.

[Budja]

I second a mass-prod

Looks like nothing has changed.

I am thinking Looker is more random than scummy as I was beginning to suspect. Also IIOA means Information instead of Analysis, and pointing out a flaw in someone's logic certainly is not this.
@Looker, you say my case on IP is 'interesting' and a 'good job'. Do you agree with it then? Why aren't you voting IP?

@IP, why would tajo replacing change your current view on him.

@Alabaska, why are you still voting spring now that you seem to believe her claim?

Prods sent, and due to request finding replacement for Malthusis

[Budja]

I find that view odd.
How would the replacement's playstyle change the scummy actions they previously had done.
I think that you don't really suspect tajo at all and where just searching for a place to put your vote.

[Budja]

I don't see why Setael would vote Spring simply for the claim, The soft claim seems plausible and explained Spring's opposition to Izzy. This feels like scum trying to remove a PR?

FoS Setael

I don't like IP, Alabaska and Setael feel a little scummy too.
I am very undecided on Looker.

[Budja]

@Alabaska, why are you still voting spring now that you seem to believe her claim?

[Budja]

I see major tunnel-vision .

@Spring and co, why do think of other players

apart

for Spring, Tajo, Izzy.

[Budja]

This argument on aggression here is really not helping the game.

[Budja]

^ so this kind of discussion is helping?

This isn't Mafia, its basically a personal argument.

[Budja]

@Looker, either that was a bad joke or just plain stupid. Please stop saying things like that.

@Spring, could you answer the question I posted earlier ^

[Budja]

Playing with your "gut" does invite suspicion.

[Budja]

Pure gut-feeling is misleading (for me anyway) and easy for scum to use to avoid scumhunting.

gut mixed with scumhunting is ok.

[Budja]

Tajo - leaning pro-town. fix on Izzy's innocence slightly suss but generally good.
Phoebus - Tunneled on Izzy which is scummy. Limited scumhunting.
Dizzy - Null read, not posting has reduce my initial slightly town read.
Spring - I believe the soft claim for now. Town

.. and Looker it was both.

[Budja]

Fritzer did state he would do so if

forced

to choose between them.

unvote, vote Alabaska

, no scumhunting, minimum posting, voted spring after softclaim, a better lynch than Phoebus IMO.

[Budja]

^ QFT, this is a much better lynch than Phoebus.

@Looker, why cahnge to IP now? You seemed fairly ambivient on him before when I was actually voting for him.

[Budja]

I'm also waiting for a more concrete case being made against me, if it must.
Something more than "playing by gut invites suspicion" and "don't cling on the people who suggest unorthodox ideas."

Isn't it more pro-town for you to scum-hunt rather than sit back and wait to defend yourself.
Apart from Izzy, who is scummy to you? I don't recall you posting any other suspicions at all.

Can we not have more personal fights please.

@mod, Could we have a mass-prod or replacement for all our inactives.

@Sarag, Interesting, I am pretty sure I see what you are saying here.

@Looker, why exactly did you think Isacc(NPC) might not be town aligned?

[Budja]

@Looker, reread and answer my question.

A deadline won't help, we still need more input from IP, creative, just about everyone actually.

[Budja]

Just noticed this back on page 5, Looker talking about Isaac Morris, the npc who died in the opening flavour text:

@ Dizzy: Gah! Well that shoots that all to hell. It doesn't say that he was town, though, so, "flavor-wise" he could have been scum.

Possible scum slip. Anyone else see what I'm seeing?

@Everyone, could you please comment on this post!

[Budja]

@Sarag, I did had to think about it for a while too before I got it.

[Budja]

At last, activity .

So out of all the people on your list, who is the scummiest?

@Fritz, why ask for a deadline when activity starts to pick up?

[Budja]

So my reasons are my gut and the fact that there is no case against her.

^This for me too.

I can also confirm from other games that Spring's attitude is consistant with her play.

A prod/replace of IP would be really good too.

[Budja]

Damn, that is a really good point.

From rereading, it does look like Fritzer was baiting Spring (not very hard ). No scumhunting either, I just assumed that he had made a case on Alabaska .

unvote, vote Fritzer

I support this wagon.

[Budja]

@Sarag, did you notice that Fritzer never posted any case on Alabaska?

[Budja]

The mafia can probably get fake role PM's from the mod or similar otherwise the setup is badly broken so it doesn't prove anything to me.

Spring = bad lynch.
I am willing to change to IP, AA23 or maybe Looker if need be to get a lynch.

[Budja]

I consider the role PM as null.

[Budja]

^This.

My role PM is very simular to Fritzer. Of course, scum most likely have fake claims of a sort.

unvote, vote hewitt

for this post:

He very well could be. I don't know if he's fakeclaiming Emily Brent or not I'm assuming he's telling the truth on that right now.

But I don't think that's the full truth on mod PM (PM's?) he was sent.

Really don't like the bolded, the PM look pretty complete as it is to me. You really look like you are trying to play both sides here.

[Budja]

@Zazier, do you think the mod would allow us to quote role PM's if the scum didn't have a safe claim of sorts? Do you believe Fritz?

[Budja]

@hewitt, thanks for clarifying, that makes sense to me.

unvote, vote Fritzer

, better him than spring if there is going to be a deadline lynch.

[Budja]

No reason?

It looks pretty damn scummy to me. I thought you meant you believed Fritz role (i.e. saw his as guest/town) but thought his PM was incomplete leaving yourself a window open to call him scum later.

[Budja]

For those who have not read the book, Thomas Legge was the lead investigator on the case and appear briefly at the end.

@starkmoon, while reading through the thread could you give your general thoughts on your predecessor's actions.

[Budja]

Zaz's death proves names (at least one) may be tied to role and Spring stated. So nameclaim is still bad.

[Budja]

Forgot about this game .

Will post soon (and I will!).

[Budja]

Ok, Zazier was reviving the game and that would be my best guess at to why he was NKed.

Setael case looks reasonable. I will reread Setael tomorrow.

I am thinking that Drake (rep. Spring) should fullclaim at this point. I can't see it making things worse and it would be helpful to know sooner than later on the chance he is scum IMO. Thoughts?

I'd like Looker to explain his vote if he is still around.

[Budja]

But given Spring's softclaim, I can't see how a full claim from Drake would introduce any extra confusion.

Exactly. A claim now prevents possible Drake-scum from choosing a role later.

[Budja]

should read ^ ...also prevents...

[Budja]

@hewitt I was thinking the same thing when I saw that.
You started the whole damn Fritz wagon .

Tajo hasn't said much recently besides a string of "will post later's" and he didn't say much at the post-claim part of the Fritz wagon.
Not very telling either way.

[Budja]

OK then.
zwets, I think you should claim. See the last couple of pages as to why.

(@mod, limited access for a week or so.)

[Budja]

@Kreriov, if the Fritzer wagon was as weak as you say, which wagon would you have supported as an alternative?

(@mod, limited access for a week or so.)

Here's a hint to why I didn't answer.

There are those that speculate (poorly) that name claiming will allow us to determine what roles people have.

Spring (now zwets) a softclaimed powerrole claimed otherwise.

After saving Spring (i.e by changing to Fritz at deadline) because she was a power-role, I realised that it is unsafe for the town to have a softclaim PR. If town, she is outed already and a claim is unlikely to make it worse and if she is scum, it gives her an unspecified PR she can fakeclaim whatever she pleased at a critical time (eg. LyLo).

I am thinking that Drake (rep. Spring) should fullclaim at this point. I can't see it making things worse and it would be helpful to know sooner than later on the chance he is scum IMO. Thoughts?

^ I have also said simular earlier, why didn't you vote me back then?

Also, I am not planning on attacking zwet after a claim unless I really feel I have good reason too. That is not the point.

[Budja]

I believe zwet just about 100% at this stage. His role is very unlikely to be scum too IMO.

Name appear to correlate to roles but I still think scum probably have safeclaims, whatever.
Massclaim = bad at this point.

I have very limited time now, expect a better post in 24hrs or so.

[Budja]

I am torn actually, I have been against the mass name-claim before but hewitt makes a reasonable point.
Slipping into null position.

vote: starkmoon

, most likely inactive to be scum IMO.

[Budja]

Sounds reasonable to me.

[Budja]

For:

DizzyIzzyB13
hewitt
Budja

Unknown:

AA23
Looker
zwetschenwasser
Kreriov
Sarag
populartajo (been replaced)
starkmoon (inactive)

^ Could these people comment on Dizzy's idea?

[Budja]

@mod, A prod on starkmoon would be nice

[Budja]

So zwet, your opinion then?

[Budja]

I purposely presented my two opinions, expecting that a scum hewitt would play the stupid card and make up some excuse about him sharing one of the opinions.

I suspect town-hewitt would act the same way. It was not an unreasonable response IMO.

[Budja]

Note that I do like your view on hewitt and I do feel a little suspicious of him but that particular post is a null tell.

[Budja]

@Kreriov, I am for Dizzy's plan. I am not yet for a nameclaim unless Hugo does not exist.

[Budja]

I don't really get what Looker is saying .

I dislike the way Kreriov is lumping me, Dizzy and hewitt together. We all have different attitudes to the idea of a claim.

Also if you don't like the discussion in the thread, change it, ask questions, don't just sit back and rant about it.

[Budja]

Hm.

AA23's claim surprises me. I was expecting the other Rogers.

General John Gordon Macarthur.

[Budja]

Note that those with the important/dangerous PR's were the main opponents (Spring, Kreriov).
This might explain our opinions a little better.

Hewitt is v. likely town. (I have read the book and that is a perfect role for Marsden) as is Kreriov (claim, early push on hewitt).
I am very surprised by this (was expecting scum somewhere there).

Confirmed Town:
zwetschenwasser
Kreriov
hewitt

I would argue that so far the claims have not been particularly bad. Two players considered suss by many are cleared.

[Budja]

Re. Kreriov's question, confirmed is a strong word but those players have convincing roles. hewitt claimed Marsden

before

you revealed your result and Marden as a miller seems quite likely. I could see the slight possibility of you/hewitt pulling a high-stakes scum gambit but v. unlikely.

and if he's scum, I'd want more confirmation supported in meta.

QFT, if he is following his scum-meta give us examples.

I still have a slight town read on Looker TBH and every so often I have seen her say something I agree with (but certainly not recently).

[Budja]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 55#1832655

[Budja]

(back)

Are people voting Looker for scummy behaviour or because she is irritating?

Leaving Looker alive is unwise if she continues to be useless. But replacing out is probably better than a lynch.

[Budja]

@mod, request forced replacement of Looker

[Budja]

Hmm, also the fact Looker didn't claim this earlier and this makes me a little suss.
[quote="Looker]
after im gone, can someone kill zwet for me? please? [/quote]

I'm a little uncertain but I'll believe you both for now.
I still would like a Looker replacement.

Anyone willing to lynch Starkmoon with me ?

[Budja]

Starkmoon is a.) extremely inactive and b.) IP's replacement and I found him scummy and c.) I can't see a better target at this time, I am not keen on the Looker wagon.

[Budja]

So hohum, who is scum on the wagon then?
My view on Starkmoon/IP hasn't changed much since day 1.

[Budja]

Hmm, you are a bit slow mentioning that only now.

@Sarag, why is a starkmoon vote better than a looker vote?

[Budja]

These are the four players who I would lynch in order of preference, Starkmoon,Sajin, DizzyIzzyB13, Sarag.
(players chosen from elimination, ordered by scumminess).

Either vote for Starkmoon or make a decent case on one of these people. I won't follow any other wagon today without a very good reason.

The idea of zwet/looker running a gambit feels and looks unlikely, why claim lovers and not masons? It is true that neither of them is playing well here but I believe them.

[Budja]

Hmm, I forgot about AA23 . He should be on my list as well.

@Looker, I have no idea what gambit you are playing but purposely playing scummy (regardless of alignment really) is very bad play (assuming this is what you are doing).

Ok, so no starkmoon lynch today after the mod's comment. On to number two.

unvote, vote Sajin

A quick look at post history shows fairly opportunistic (IMO) jumps on the Looker, then Starkmoon wagons and I don't remember Tajo looking too pro-town before replacement.

[Budja]

Why hewitt?

We can talk, we don't really need more information. We have already been given a lot. Its simply inactivity which is killing this.

What do you think of Sajin? Are you opposed to his lynch at this moment? Why/Why not?

[Budja]

Nice,

What do you think of Sajin? Are you opposed to his lynch at this moment? Why/Why not?

This is directed at everyone! (well apart from Sarag now).

@mod, could we have a deadline/prods on AA23, hohum, others

[Budja]

Well heres a list of claims:

AA23: Vera Claythorne
Budja: General MacArthur
hohum: Inspector Blore, Cop/Watcher something like that
hewitt: Anthony Marsden, Miller
Looker: Mr/s Rogers - Lover
Zwet: Mr/s Rogers - Lover


As for the rest, I'd have to reread and I'm too tired to do that right now.
At the moment, Sajin is my wagon of choice. (Yes, I have been flipping around a bit here havent I but I think theres a good case here (at least a better one than on anyone else at the moment)).

[Budja]

Jeez zwet.
That was horrible logic and Armstrong was quite clearly a doctor.

I have disliked the push of zwet/looker too but this was still blatently scummy. If you and Looker are town then you better pick up your play or you won't last much longer.

[Budja]

I didn't preview my post.

unvote

I want a full claim right now, Sajin.

[Budja]

You want me to tell you if I can protect myself? How many times?

Your reaction so far is quite scummy, I dislike your posts and your claim that zwet hammered you doesn't sit right with me. Still I don't want to lynch a doctor. I want your

full

claim right now. Post your role PM (it is allowed).

And I am ticked that I was voted because I was not mass name claiming like everyone else.

Talk about a total misrep. See below for my case.

A quick look at post history shows fairly opportunistic (IMO) jumps on the Looker, then Starkmoon wagons and I don't remember Tajo looking too pro-town before replacement.

My case, certainly not watertight but certainly not as simplistic as you are claiming here. The claims only helped eliminate/reorder certain players from my scumlist.

Sarag has similar reasoning and the others are bandwagonning.

[Budja]

Its not the best for the town to post my role PM.

I have a hard time imagining why this would be the case.

Oh and I voted the wrong person. unvote; vote: AA23 for starting all of this role name claiming and outing me.

You either didn't read my post or ignored it. The claiming had very little to do with your bandwagon, at least for me.

So Sajin's twilight post was a scum gambit.

I'm suspecting so. Add the whole unwillingness to post his role PM and I am strongly suspecting a fakeclaim here.

vote Sajin

(back at L-1)

[Budja]

A bit late there hohum . Are you going to post much or just ride on your claim.

It was impossible to be a gambit as I would of either stopped a kill or added one.

Doc is a typical scum fake-claim and everything you did felt scummy.
It looks like you were attempting to place WIFOM on the lovers in case you were lynched. If you are scum, they are prob town.

And Izzy is still scum.

Quite possibly but I'm still suspecting a bus.

[Budja]

What part of that do you not understand?

I'm still going to hope you are lying until the flip .

I'm going to post more.

Good. It would be nice to actually know your opinions.

[Budja]

Not really. I

am

listening to you and your posts aren't going anywhere after your flip.

Why do you think that Dizzy/AA23 is scum. Without reasoning your post is not particularly helpful regardless of alignment.

[Budja]

@AA23 I would not consider myself a main pusher of the nameclaim hewitt pushed, damn the consequesnces, and Dizzy and I had more reserved views. You set it off.

[Budja]

So whats your report, hohum?

On a reread:

you are the Bastard and will turn up guilty in

alignment investigations.

You are the Room Watcher, every night you can target a person and

see if they left their room.

The bolded seems pretty contridictory to me.
I should have noticed this before but I was just assuming Blore was a "cop" of sorts.

Vote withheld until report.

[Budja]

@Your role PM strongly indicates (I mean it is your role name ) that you are a watcher and so, as much as I hate to say it, you do not really clear me.

vote: hewitt

, from previous comment.

[Budja]

I think its pretty straight forward.

1. hohum saw hewitt leave his room.
2. hewitt claims to be a miller,
His role PM says he will "turn up guilty in

alignment

investigations."
3. hewitt was not "alignment investigated", his room was watched.
4. hewitt really did leave his room.
5. hewitt must have a night action.

[Budja]

He can only confirm I didn't make an action.
I am basically assuming leaving your room means that you have performed a night action. I cannot think of a better interpretation.

We are mixing up hohum's role and flavour. He is not a cop.

[Budja]

OK, I would have to assume I was most likely targeted by scum in that case (as Nikanor kindly said ) or the scum where possibly blocked otherwise (quite less likely).
That is reasonable IMO as I was one of the more active players and haven't been attacked that much really.

I greatly doubt Budja would have been a better scum target over our lovers.

Why? The lovers have been suspected by more and are probably easier to get lynched.

Whoa you are like seriously off on this. Number one I never claimed to be a Miller so I have no idea what you're trying to pull here. And number two I have not left my room this game. So number three I do not have a night action.

1. Your role PM basically says you are a miller and that you "turn up guilty in alignment investigations.". If you are town that

must

be true.
2. How do I know this?
3. How do I know this?

I am surprised people are so disinterested in the obvious contradiction between the role PMs.

[Budja]

@Looker
hewitt is def. scum.
I am possible scum (in your eyes).

We are "guest-aligned" not "town-aligned". So it was a (mildly) possible scum-slip.

[Budja]

Welcome to Shipwreck Island.
After receiving the nice invite from that Mr. U. N. Owen chap (who you can't seem to remember just now, but must know him from somewhere) you couldn't resist the opportunity to spend a few relaxing days at a well furnished home on a secluded island.
However you hold a dark secret in your heart, a secret that will be revealed to all soon enough...

For you are

General John Gordon Macarthur

, a retired World War I hero, who sent your wife's lover, Arthur Richmond, to his death.

However you are now a doddering old man who likes to have a nap. As such you are a

Guest

and have no special abilities.

I will be annoyed if you don't lynch hewitt tomorrow.
The lovers are very likely town.
I think Dizzy is prob scum too.
I believe Sarag's claim.

[Budja]

I guessed 2/3 right by the end but I was very wrong about hewitt.

Any reason for the no-kill?

[Budja]

And no one follows my leads and instead I get quicklynched when I claim a protective role. Go figure.

Bad town play.

It wasn't what you claimed but how you claimed it. Your hesitation and unwillingness to post your PM looked scummy to me.

[Budja]

I'm still just glad my gut actually targeted scum for once .

I had a pro-town feel on you too Sarag.

@Th, I think you should place more deadlines. I've noticed that games without deadlines seems to die a bit. (Of course, this is from my "extensive" experience so ignore me if you like.)

I also really enjoyed the flavour and roles. It was a good game.