Mini 776: End of the World Zombie Survivors Mafia: Abandoned

[Amished]

I apologize for not posting in this game sooner. In two other ongoing games I said I was going to be away for the weekend, and then for this game I screwed up and assumed that it was in Little Italy as I didn't realize that Coney Island used "mini" naming conventions too. I would've thought that it was titled slightly differently. Anyways, I'm here now.

As to the giving of the gun, I personally find it disconcerting. Particularly the end of the voting. OGBall's lack of really stating anything as his opinion towards why you (SOGuy) should get the gun in particular makes me wary. It seems like he just wanted to appear pro-town (agreeing with a large number of townies) without actually giving any opinion on the matter. Rishi just finishing off "the inevitable" is a point against him as well in my book. Nothing is "inevitable" until a majority agrees. Certainly it is inevitable after giving it to you, but to just hop on at the end and saying (in my eyes) "this will stifle discussion that was rather productive" is interesting.

For the L-1 gunning, I don't know if that's the right way to go. I feel that it will just make it easier for scum to pressure somebody and get a role-claim out of them, and if it's a worthless claim in their eyes they can abandon it or reduce their heavy opponents (referring to anti-scum power roles). As Semi has the gun now, I'm thinking that he should go after somebody who he thinks is scum and then force him to account for his actions and reasoning after it is done. That way we can also decide if it was truly a pro-town kill, or if there was something shady to do.

In other words: It seems like it'll add another deadline. I've seen several of the newbie games just go down the crapper because of deadlines and forced action due to not allowing the town to fully explore all the possibilities in depth, and auto-vigging the L-1 seems to make that into another deadline while we already have one that we have to worry about.

Also, hi to Gateway, musher, and Shinnen, and then the rest of you.

[Amished]

@Diamond: One point, and admittedly only a very weak one that could go either way isn't enough for me to put my vote on somebody.

@gateway: By the time gorkat gave Diamond the gun through randomness, I was already V/LA so I couldn't have posted here if I wanted to. I would also hope that you don't have a good read on me through 1 post... If you could, I'd call shenanigans and be highly suspicious of you.

@OGBall: I think that's a terrible idea. I'm of the same opinion as SOG, where he should decide when/where and have him explain his reasoning, probably during the shoot so we get his analysis before there's a role-reveal. Auto-gunning anybody based on one condition, especially L-2 I think would be rather easy for scum to manipulate that.

@Hero: You misunderstood me. If his reasons for a vig are solid (and like I said earlier) are made before a role reveal I think that would be best for the rest of the town too. If the reasons are weak, no matter the role we can attack him for it. This way, if SOG is scum he could target a scumbuddy for weaker reasons, and we might be able to catch him on it, or if he's town but has good reasons, even if the target is town, I'll most likely be able to see where he's coming from, and hopefully everyone else will see it as well.

[Amished]

I thought the "pseudovote" was particularly clear, and an elegant solution. Personally I never use FoS's as I view them to be rather worthless, but that's just me. Also letting people stay alive for a bit if the gun hasn't been used is anything *but* scummy, so that argument is crap as well. A lynch *is* a lynch, but we're also throwing away a possibility to kill scum, an anti-town player, or somebody that's unhelpful that can throw suspicions away from scum D2. Your lynch happy attitude towards this is scummy in my eyes, and is the biggest scum tell I've seen in this game so far.

Vote: Lowell

[Amished]

I'm only in one game with Lowell (ongoing, both alive, no conclusions can be drawn) and while he's similar, his (lack of) logic and poor reasoning both want me to avoid having to deal with his bad posting style in the odd chance that we make it to a LyLo together. If he keeps making it through nights, there's all sorts of wifom for anybody and it'd make it hard for anybody to really see his intentions, making it bad for the town. Of course, this is just how I feel, but it doesn't stop me from not wanting his type of posting and not thinking about the game around.

As he's not exactly close to a lynch, I'm not particularly worried about losing him, and I'm looking around for other suspects.

For Musher, I have 1 game played together where he was town (as was I; Newbie 731). He started off slow but did put a little more effort into that than here. It's barely noticable if at all, but it feels slightly different (for those of you wondering about his playstyle.)

[Amished]

Special rules: Mostly just the one; and that's already over with. The special flavor was that we had a gun found "D1" with one bullet in it. We could vote for who this one-time use unknown alignment vig is. In our case it's Darkwing Du.. semioldguy. If the gun isn't used D1, obviously SOG has a chance of getting killed and nobody can use the gun then, so I'm basically looking at it as a one time daykill vig of alignment unknown.

On that note, welcome DGB!

Musher: I remember well. I replaced into that game as well, and you were the one agreeing with most of my points after you came in during D2. I was also semi-following that game after I was NK'd, and I wasn't entirely impressed with the town's play in general.

On the topic of why look for others, we have a 1time vig ability. While finding your top suspect (and in my and gateway's case) we're also voting for them. Since we (as a whole) have a one-time use daykill ability, I in particular am looking for others being scummy for two reasons. 1) To see if somebody more scummy than Lowell pops up and warrants my vote for them and 2) to see if I find somebody that I feel worthy enough to daykill and compare/contrast that to what SOG chooses to help me decide what SOG was thinking with his kill and therefore hope to give me a clue as to his alignment.

--

Meh, Rishi gave a more concise answer than mine about the "specialness" of our game.

[Amished]

No, *everyone* usually knows who they are. Null-tell at best.

[Amished]

Unfortunately it's the weekend, and even though he promised 3 days ago that he'd have content 2 days ago. Weekends I'm not always around (as evidenced by the start of this game) so I question how much pressure *now* will help. If I see him around, I do want to see more out of him and if it doesn't come I'll be suspicious.

His last post *on the site* was in this game, so we'll just have to see when he comes back.

[Amished]

Special case. Friends of mine are in their finals week, and that's a legit excuse in my eyes. As I've been prodded for being away over a weekend in this game for the most recent example (and you can check my other games that I was in at the beginning of the game to corroborate my V/LA) I definitely understand him being gone now. As he's not posted anywhere else since he's posted here, everything checks out with him being busy. Before that he was gone 4 days but posted twice. Obviously those posts leave something to be desired but there wasn't much more to talk about at that point in my eyes.

Like I said before, I want to see more content out of him, but I'm not about to start voting for lurkers before they have a chance to defend themselves as long as we have time before deadlines. I don't know what your experience with automatic deadlines is, but mine is rather negative, and lead to a perfect scum win because people were focused on lurkers while the scum was relatively active.

[Amished]

You're welcome? No, his reasons for not being here seem legit, which is why I'm waiting. Go for it and lynch him if you really think that'll be the best course of action right now.

[Amished]

I've said in both my posts regarding him that I'd prefer to wait to see what he says. If you all think he's deserving of a lynch right now I'll disagree but there's not a hell of a lot I can do about it. I've always (not just in this game, but all games) been an advocate for more reason to lynch somebody rather than lurking, especially D1.

If you also consider that my sole experience with solid fixed deadlines from the start was terrible, while scum could focus on people that weren't as active as they were and it was considered legit because of the deadline.

One last question, where's the 180 then?

[Amished]

I do want to give him more time.

However, I'm not a buddy with anybody, and I'm not concerned with a lynch (that you indeed did say DGB in 170) of somebody I don't know what alignment he is. Mostly because it is Day 1 so a mislynch if Kabe is town will give me insight on who was pushing for the lynch and a mislynch hopefully won't harm the town significantly. Or a successful lynch if he's scum is even better so I'm not concerned about that either.

[Amished]

Hey look, I don't have a cage to rattle. I want to give him more time to contribute and judge his posts based on that? Perhaps you just solely singled out players that haven't been around or post like every 5 hours! Mmmmmm on Confirmation Bias. .... Let's take a look at who on your scumlist has even posted since you put it up. Mmmm, the Shinnen replacement (lol) and ... Me. The only *person* who's voted on your list at all (other than yourself) since you came in is SOG. What were you really trying to point out with that?

[Amished]

Appears like I need to clarify further what I meant..

@Kabennon: You're right, I was semi-defending you in that I thought it was odd (to put it nicely) that you were the one singled out for lurking when you were the only one to give a reason for your absence. I said how I felt about your reason (believed it) and then in 170 DrippingGB asks

Are you afraid we might be lynching your lurking buddy?

which I thought was completely uncalled for. I thought the attack solely on you was bogus which is why I stood up for your reason for your absence. I wanted to make it clear that I wasn't partners with anybody, so that was the reason for the "lynch him if you think it's the best course of action right now". Clearly I didn't think that it was the right thing to do, as I'd always been a proponent of keeping you around to actually get a read on your playstyle and see if you were more townie or more scummy. Even if you were lynched before you could really respond, I knew who I'd be looking at for scum on the next day; if you weren't, then we can get a read on you. Either way it benefits me and hopefully the rest of the town as well.

As I've been too busy defending myself, I've not gotten a chance to ask Dripping this question: Why did you single out Kabennon for your lurker attack/rattle the cages/whatever you call it? I disagree that you can't rattle cages without votes too. 1 vote shouldn't rattle anybody's cage IMO.

[Amished]

@Kabennon: the rattling cages comment was after Dripping? said afraid about lynching a buddy or whatever and after I said the "lynch if you think it's best for today". So your timing is slightly off I believe. If I understand that point of yours correctly.

Also, I as to the "slip" that you mentioned, I know where I would look if you happened to be lynched mighty quickly at that time as I don't believe a town oriented player would hammer that quickly, and remove SOG's ability to vig somebody. As I can't say what everyone else would do in reaction to a quicklynch on you, I know it would help me narrow down who to look at for scum, but I'm not sure everyone would feel the same way.

@SOG: You bring up the sole problem of asking for claims that I see. As it's really only *you* doing the killing and not necessarily a good portion of people thinking that the "target" is scummy it's really hard for everyone else to trust your motivations. At first when you asked my instinctual answer was "yes". The way I look at it is that it might be fair to ask the first person that you *really* think you'd target with the vig kill; if you then believe that claim then it's fine, but I would NOT ask for a second claim as L-1 might also claim as well. Three claims out of twelve people is a bit much. One potential problem with any claim system is that obviously PR's don't want to really be put out in the open D1, so they might fake claim now to protect themselves. If they lie and you kinda sense that, you might be targetting a pro-town PR.

From just straight personal experience (mostly mini normal or newbie games) I think that there might not be many power roles anyways so it will probably be ok though; so I'd still ask the first one after you think about it and are pretty sure about who you're targetting.

(on a completely unrelated to the game note: are you semioldguy on TL.net as well?)

[Amished]

(I'm a long time lurker, but recently signed up. <100 posts, mostly LR'ing for SKT matches. amish is my user name (original, I know))

Unless you're scum, I've never seen a reason to fake-claim either so your view about that is logical in my eyes.

[Amished]

@EEM: I'm not totally crazy about who mentioned what first! The fact that Dripping said lynching first was the only reason I brought it up period.

@Hero: I don't think I agree with your reasoning behind VT's. By "trying to get NK'd" and particularly with reference to possibly lying I feel that's definitely more harmful to the town (possibly outing another town PR). If they're a good townie who most people don't view as scum, then it's still their duty to try to stay alive so that we have less suspects.

@Diamond: What do you make of Hero's statement that he'll be putting his vote back on Lowell pending a reread of both Rishi and Lowell??

[Amished]

I do not support the case against Herodotus.

I'm getting a solid town read off him.

Ok... what about everybody else then?

[Amished]

Then I take it you still find Kabennon scummy for lurking? (I take it that's what your initial vote was for?)

[Amished]

You've noticed this just now? Since it just jumped out at you, what was your reason for thinking him scummy in your first "real" post, not the one that you ask about any special rules.

[Amished]

EBWOP: Oozing, do you not see it, or just not understand it?

Dripping: Care to answer post # 231?

[Amished]

Perfect, the last 4 days before the deadline...

[Amished]

(BTW: My question at Dripping

Then I take it you still find Kabennon scummy for lurking? (I take it that's what your initial vote was for?)

is still unanswered.)

[Amished]

I just want to point out some selected points, especially regarding me, from Lowell's major post. I'll be cutting out the parts that I'm not focusing on for now, but every full line will be intact. (Bolding will be my response)

Recap:
127- amished votes lowell for being lynch-happy [-, opportunistic]

I give my reasons; being lynch-happy early on in a day is scummy. I see scummy behavior, I voted. I heartily disagree that it was opportunistic.

...

172- evilevilmatt questions amished's reasons for defending kabenon's lurking [++, - for amished]

I take it since you didn't give me a (-) for the post where I have my "defense" (I'll be talking about this again later in the post) I'm getting a (-) for being questioned?

...

178- semi agrees with diamond, votes hero [+]

Is he getting a + for the vote on hero, or for the agreeing with Diamond?

...

184- kabenon returns, suspects Lowell, Amished, and Hero [-]

What about that is (-) to you, having 3 suspects (of which you have more) or that you're part of it (making it OMGUS?)

From here on down, I'm keeping stuff I want to talk about after the quote box

DGB

. The slip at the beginning of her game still strikes me as a town thing to do. When I replace as scum I, at the very least, remember who I'm replacing and who my buddies are. I won't avoid attacking them, certainly, but I at least don't want to marry myself to a position I can't get out of by attacking them too hard. Unless this is a WIFOM tactic (which I doubt) DGB's not knowing who she is strikes me as a town action.

Some anti-town players:

hero

. The case against him is pretty simple. His reasons for attacking me were made up in hindsight, and part of plan to get me gunned on the way to a second D1 kill. When this was pointed out he panicked, unvoted, then REVOTED when that made him look even more suspicious. As well, I still don't like the early-game suggestion of "psuedovotes." Something about that strikes me as (a) a good way to obstruct progress, yet (b) an attempt to look too helpful, in a meta way. Scum like to talk about the game format and possible game-breaking strategies. He's by no means the only one to do this, but his posts are the ones that stick out to me.

amished

. I agree with matt and semi that amished's strange defense of kabenon is suspicious. Even if kabenon isn't scum, it's clear that amished is trying to win favor. As well, his first vote on me in 127 reeks of opportunism.

Some players I'm watching closely:

semioldguy

. Hugely town at the beginning. Less so now. I don't like the feeling that he's the narrator rather than an active player, and I don't like the hints I've been getting that he might not use the gun in a democratic way (despite everyone taking several pages at the beginning to come to that conclusion)

Conclusion:

I'd rather get a lurker now, via semi's gun, then get someone who actually matters before the 9th. I'll vote for anyone else on my scum list.

Concerning Dripping: *EVERYONE* keeps in mind who they are. Null tell at best. If anything, the fact that she came in and voted for a lurker (while good to keep people from lurking) without talking about the game or anything else that happened strikes me as an easy out to keep from really talking about the players in the game.

I really want to know how you think that the pseudovote thing is really that confusing. It was another topic that I felt we could all easily discuss as well as the rest of the game who's aim was to prevent a quick hammer (good) and to allow Semi to use his dayvig ability if it was still available (good). Either way, it allowed all of us to be extra aware of any L-2 situations if we were planning on voting (good).

My "defense" of Kabennon was entirely this: Kabennon gave a reason for why he was away at the time. I felt it was a valid reason due to personal experience with finals and due to real world knowledge that finals are starting for people. To be called out as (in my eyes) the primary lurker and being voted for was a very weak reason and since he (Kabe) wasn't around to defend himself from a bogus ass case, I stepped up because it was just that stupid of a vote in my opinion. Besides, I don't try to win favor. I provided my logic against a weak case. If people see my side of it, great. If not, then I'm open to listen to other viewpoints. Either way, it's for my own benefit rather than me trying to win people over by being nice as that doesn't work (and shouldn't) anyway.

Then the final two parts, why are you still trying to direct the vig? You have him in your "neutral", for lack of a better word, category partially because he wants to use his ability as he sees fit? He's still asking our opinions about it (at least mine, about him asking for a role-claim) and will obviously see who else people are thinking is scummy and I'm fairly certain that that will weigh into his decision. Do you just not trust him anymore that you don't want his opinion to outweigh your own or what?

[Amished]

Welcome Kieraen

[Amished]

Lol Keiraen, it's not like I'm in Mafia 91 with you for a while before you replaced out... Or perhaps I think you're scum and I'm happy to see your bad record to make it easy for the town! :townie laugh: .....

Though I never really thought about having a cult. I can see where even the flavor doesn't discount the possibility either, even giving an example of somebody incubating the "zombie virus" and attacking other Dynaplex survivors after lockdown or whatever. Hmm.

@Hero: There's a reason my vote is still on him >_> WRT: Rishi, he posted yesterday? Or are you waiting for his full post analysis?

And I got the feeling that there were more people favoring having Semi use it as he sees fit more than having it be a general consensus as to who to vig (keeping potential scum from influencing that "wagon" as well.)

@Diamond: That's an interesting "catch" the not as scummy comment by Dripping. I didn't really think about that the first time through. For somebody who uses votes to rattle cages, having a weak vote on them wouldn't really accomplish that goal.

[Amished]

Please make votes/unvotes on their own line.

Then look at Lowell's, Hero's and Dripping's votes.. Thought I'd point that out. Somebody goes through the trouble of modding for us, might as well try to make it easier for them.

@EEM: I kinda can see a connection between Lowell/Hero (soft, and I'd have to check for other things between each of them and the other players) but I don't see any connection between Oozing/Musher. With the latter, are you just picking out the two most lurker people? And then are you suggesting voting them for a lynch or trying to have Semi deal with them?

kabenon. I'm less sure of this in light of amished's defense. I actually think that makes it more likely that kabenon is innocent and amished is trying to win his favor.

Still, 184 is bad, it's like he searched for the three most hated players and posted them atop his suspect list just to impress people and not stir anything up.

(Bolding mine)
I've used basically this exact argument as scum, and the response I got to it fits just as well here. If they were town, they can just as easily come in and see the most scummy players and list them (a pro-town action). Both alignments would do the same thing, and it's definitely a null-tell in my book. However, pointing that out and trying to make it look scummy is an anti-town tell in my book as well. Since it was pointed out by you, I'm more comfortable with viewing Kabe as more townie and you (Lowell) as scum.

@Kier: Better post that analysis before dying then? You definitely play too much mafia if you're having nightmares about it.

[Amished]

So far out of my 3 completed games, I've had one that ended up having 5 replacements in 25 pages, 8r in 46p and 5r in 18p. Limited experience, but it's still a common trait overall I think.

That's what I thought you meant with your vote Hero, I was just checking.

[Amished]

Might as well get the ball rolling, I agree that we're getting close to the deadline and we do need to figure something out.

Suspects:
1) Lowell. Case already presented, obviously I feel rather strongly about it.

2) Dripping. Confirmation bias on lurkers (first day she was here), lack of pressure vote on Lowell (sus. #1) suggests to me that there's a pairing there. ISO 21 gives me an odd feel, something scum would say as they know the active people are townies?

3) Oozing, Musher and Kieraen. Oozing/Musher for not really contributing to the game a whole lot, Kieraen is up here due to his ISO 4 mostly because it seems like he's trying to say that all of the points against Lowell are due to playstyle (mentioning policy lynches) while I know that's not really part of my case, and I'm typically anti-policy lynches other than lurkers (sometimes) and liars that didn't think their way through it (way more harm to town, like townie claiming PR and outing the real PR).

@EEM I think he's wondering why it's Him

*OR*

Lowell, and why not both if you really think they're both scummy.

[Amished]

I'm just confused as to why you still say "or". I assume (perhaps wrongly) that Hero and Lowell are the "2 I know" (your quote). If you know that they're scum, why would you not want them both dead today? To put it another way, what would be gained by leaving a "known" scum alive today in your eyes?

[Amished]

Then what happens if your read is wrong on one of them? Say we mislynch a townie, does that then clear the other a little bit, or are they still scummy enough to lynch?

Or the case that I'm particularly worried about if one is scum and the other isn't: what happens if we do correctly lynch scum, isn't that more of a confirmation bias and you trying to set-up a chain lynch?

[Amished]

Meh, join the club EEM.

Like I mentioned in 278, I feel that there's more of an interesting connection between Dripping and Lowell than Hero and Lowell. Regarding your connection between Lowell and Hero, (namely him voting for Kabe after not answering right away, but didn't do it with Lowell until later) I guess I felt it was partially due to kabennon's lack of answer at that point was more recent.

To translate that into my aspect of this game, when SOG asked my opinion on the role-claims I forgot about my initial post comment on it being able to force role-claims. I tend to get more caught up in recent events than stuff that happened a bit ago.

Then after you pointing the non-vote on Lowell out, leading to Hero's reciprocal FoS on Lowell, his defense was enough for me. Especially as we have another player that votes all over the place, so judging by his other posts I thought it was also partially playstyle. Then later on the FoS was upgraded due to another thing that I also felt was stereotypically scummy was ok by me as well.

I could be slightly influenced by the pseudovote thing for people close to a lynch (L-2) and still thinking that that was a good suggestion, and very pro-town. While some of his (hero's) later defenses have been iffy, they've all stayed above my imaginary scum/town line.

Of course, if we do happen to turn up scum, I just make it a habit of rereading everyone and seeing if there's connections there again and then rank it from there. However, we need to find scum first and looking for connections between two people of unknown alignment seems like a waste of time at this point in the game.

Depends on the Person. If Lowell is killed and flips town my suspicions of Herodotus will be reduced as where I pointed out Hero's treating Lowell differently from Kebanon will not be trying to defend a scum buddy.

I want to point this out as well. Typically I'd find this a little interesting (disregarding Hero potentially buddying/connecting to a townie if Lowell was town and Hero not) but your reaction with my defense of Kabennon was similar enough to this situation that I feel it's just your playstyle.

[Amished]

Diamond, would you say this is a fair representation then of your likely scum? (based off your last two posts)

1) EEM (Scummish in Diamond's words)
2) Hero (Neutral leaning scum)
3) Musher
4) Rishi
5) Oozing
6) Kabennon
7) Dripping
8) Amished
9) semioldguy
10) kieraen
11) Lowell

Just going by how you described people, that looks about right if needed to be in a list. One thing that I noticed that seemed like a discrepancy was your view of EEM and kieraen/gateway. You commend Gateway for wanting to give SOG the gun, but attack EEM for the same thing. They both ended up giving it to SOG due to the fact that they thought he was pro-town so I don't really see how the two of them can be that far apart while throwing that as a part of your basis for how scummy they are in your eyes.

After seeing the rest of your analysis and seeing that difference, I looked at the rest of your reasons for thinking EEM is scummy and this stood out.

In that same post (post 61), he reiterates his dislike of directing the gun owner and mentions that using the gunshot like an extra lynch gives the scum the chance to orchestrate a mislynch. If he is so afraid of having the scum mislynch, then why wasn't he more cautious with his gun vote since that is effectively giving a player the ability to kill another?

Which I feel to be a weak reason. His stance has always been clear to me about the gun. It has to go to someone, so give it to somebody you think is pro-town. Trust the judgement of said somebody felt to be pro-town, and don't try to tell them what to do as the town as a whole has people lying (scum) and therefore something that should be a pro-town action can turn into a scum action without really knowing. Therefore in my eyes allowing the PR to choose their own action is definitely more pro-town than you make it out to be. It looks like to me as though he's making the one person with the power accountable, and removing chances for the scum *as a whole* (regardless of SOG's alignment, since there's more than 1 scum if SOG happened to be scum) to influence the kill.

Then after that (below EEM on the list) it seems to me like you're more neutral given that you've unvoted hero as well. After that, it's lurkers that you're neutral on. The lack of suspects is mighty concerning to me, as in my games as scum I've found it hard to pick out scummy actions for people you know to be town. I'm definitely keeping my eye on you.

Semi: What do you think about Diamond's scum list?

[Amished]

Which kinda signals to me that the scum are playing a passive game. I say this for two reasons.

1) When scums have cases, it tends to have a slight divide in the rest of the players that shows up slightly more clearly. Doesn't really matter if the townies are on the scum's side or not but there's generally something that sparks interest throughout the rest of the town.

2) Not as much "omg that's a scumtell, you're scummy, vote you" that even moderately experienced scums can come under fire for. That leads me to think that there's a lack of scum being active. Four people not voting, when we're at less than a week til deadline also concerns me greatly. Put your vote somewhere for crying out loud, even if it's on somebody that doesn't have a vote on them. At least you'll have an opinion that the rest of us can gauge your scummy/townie-ness for.

[Amished]

In addendum to 1, if you don't quite understand what I mean, if you look back towards where Diamond, hero and SOG were all kinda going back and forth, that's the type of feeling I'm trying to express. Where one way or another there's something that people comment on either being a weaker case or a good point or something.

I never really thought about this game like that before, and I don't know why my instincts pointed me back to then. Another thing to ponder, and therefore another reason to kinda look at Diamond due to my thoughts about his scumlist and the fact that he was in that past argument.

[Amished]

O.o Hi Oozing. Care to share any more thoughts?

[Amished]

I'm not seeing the EEM case either. EEM had plenty of time to vote for the gun to go somewhere else so clearly throughout the whole process he still thought that SOG was most townie. Just because he thought SOG was townie early on, and then didn't find anything to dissuade him from that stance isn't scummy as many people weren't jumping off the gun going to SOG.

Also, I'm content with a couple people grilling somebody else as long as the questions get answered, and the questions cover what I would ask. I see no need to ask the same question just for the sake of grilling them.

Lowell, you and oozing were the only ones that mentioned that it should be used as another lynch by the town. I think we democratically kinda decided that the gun wouldn't be used democratically.

[Amished]

There you go, SOG thought it was a good bet, you do, and I'm definitely not opposed. Dripping agrees, so that's like 4 people for and 0 against. Seems democratic.... >_>

[Amished]

Well, I think it's more of Oozing not coming around, but that's his own problem. If he's lurking under that much pressure (deliberately not posting here/anywhere) or not showing up at deadline time then I say shoot the bum anyways. We really do need to get a move on.

[Amished]

It *would* make sense, except for the last line of the "one shot vig" power that's posted in post #3:

You have a gun, and one bullet. You may point the loaded gun at another survivor during the day, when you are all gathered in the common area, and pull the trigger. This will kill them.

To kill someone, post KILL: PLAYERNAME in the game thread.

This power will not work after a majority of votes to lynch has been placed, even if I haven't counted the votes. It will not work after a deadline to lynch expires.

Bolding mine.

As to musher, while I feel more strongly about a Lowell lynch, I also realize the need to actually lynch somebody during the day, and a lurker isn't as bad a target as somebody I feel more comfortable with. If Musher hits L-1 and SOG has used the vig ability, I'll hammer if need be.

[Amished]

Lowell: I was considering voting for Musher, putting him at L-1. If one scum isn't on the wagon, they could easily hammer and prevent a vig kill. That's what the heck I'm worried about.

[Amished]

Oh yea... /me fails at math.

Not sure why I only thought 5 votes would lynch... Probably took one off what is needed when SOG uses the gun.

[Amished]

Hopefully Gor will come with a role-reveal and if Oozing is scum, we can kinda go from there (but not really as OGB didn't do a hell of a lot).

Next question: Personally I abhor lurkers. Lowell is at least around to say something and therefore we can get a read on him. I'm willing to hope that we get a good replacement for Musher and therefore we can get a read on him tomorrow. Therefore, as SOG correctly points out Rishi is one of the worst right now. If he doesn't post something substantial when he's "caught up" I'm comfortable voting for him too. A no-lynch is absolutely unacceptable to me right now.

[Amished]

I guess another question is how much stock do we want to place in flavor text?

[Amished]

Thanks Rising!

[Amished]

that's generally the accepted follow-up to replacing in, yes.

[Amished]

We still only have 4 days til lynch, and Dripping still won't be around so we still need to keep everything moving.

Rising, have any opinions on what has happened so far yet?

[Amished]

Who would you primarily like to vote for then Lowell, now that musher has a replacement?

[Amished]

Pretty sure it was just Musher's lurking.

Linked here for the votes on Musher

[Amished]

I just took a reread of Rishi (which then prompted a reread of Lowell). In Rishi's last 5 posts (from ISO 7 on) he's said Lowell's behavior is a null-tell, "Hi" to DGB, fell behind, Lowell's behavior is a null-tell (again), said Lowell's behavior is a null-tell (yet again) but now thinks he's slightly scummy, and then that he's catching up. Either Rishi knows something we don't, or he's faking it pretty well. As good a place to start for me. Thinking Lowell is scum, then writing the votes/suspicions toward him off as all against his playstyle is scummy, and the ever slow change from his initial stance to lowell might be scummy is suspicious as well.

Unvote

Vote: Rishi

[Amished]

I guess my thoughts on vigging in general is to get rid of the lurkers so that we have only people around that we can vote for, and therefore get more information out of voting. Who would you have rather seen shot? Clearly he was not going to shoot himself.

[Amished]

I advocate vigging lurkers. BTW: Lurking is *not* a playstyle. It's a way to show you're too lazy to put the effort into a game or to not play at all. I'd dayvig every single lurker out there if I could to get rid of lurking completely as I think it'd lead to better quality games and therefore more fun for everybody. V/LA is different (evidenced by my leniency on Kabe since he posted a legit reason for being away), and if abused I'd prolly dayvig for abuse of that too. It also would've been better if you said you were busy, instead of keeping us all hanging with your "This will be my top priority the next time I log on."

As 3 of the remaining players have not cast a vote yet, and 4 people are on a lurker lynch, I'm still looking around for a good scum target. Also as everybody else that has a vote on them only has 1 vote on them, we're a rather indecisive group and there wasn't much of a consensus as to who people thought were scummy.

I also recall you saying you had a large post coming (that was before SOG's vigging), so I'm looking forward to that as well yet.

[Amished]

Just say that you were going to be V/LA then. You don't have to go into details about how you have 3 doctors appointments, 2 finals, 4 papers and anniversary and 9 funerals to attend. Christ.

[Amished]

ungun, gun semioldguy. To get this moving.

The double-lynch plan is intriguing,

but I'd rather he just kill someone he thinks is scummy

. Less complicated, less bickering. Let's lynch someone.

Lowell, you've also said this, so I don't know why or when you changed your mind about the gun, so I'm glad you're not basing your case off of the fact that Semi still did kinda what you thought was appropriate at some point.

[Amished]

I currently have Lowell linked with Rishi

Agreed, which is why if Rishi was getting votes and Lowell wasn't (who I still feel is scummy) I would switch my vote so that if need be we could get a proper lynch instead of some half-assed deadline half-vote-required lynch which gives us all much less information.

I agree with vigging lurkers when there aren't better options, but did you really feel that the person you were voting was not the best person to be killed?

Yes, if I had the gun it would've been tough picking out the lurkers and vigging Lowell. However, I still probably would've vigged a lurker as I feel that there's actually reasoning against Lowell and therefore he's a lynch possibility. This was all before the deadline was moved as well so therefore I doubt much could've been brought up as a connection between anybody in the 2? days we had left at that point.

Also, where the hell is Rising? at people replacing and not posting.

As I won't be awake when the deadline officially comes, tomorrow night is my personal deadline. With Lowell getting more votes again, and being my primary suspect

Unvote
Vote: Lowell

[Amished]

This is a rather small game still so far in relation to a lot of others. I'm in a game where we're pushing 2000 posts, and we're not even touching 400 here. Care to share what you think is either especially confusing or what you think about people being scummy?

[Amished]

I said I'd make him account for his actions if I didn't agree with them. You're not agreeing with him and you're arguing with him about it. Obviously I agree with vigging lurkers, and even though we shouldn't have to, I'm not that concerned about voting for them either. Vigging a lurker is a pro-town action in my eyes. Always. The mafia won't get rid of them as it's useful to point blame to them. We're obviously wasting time voting for them for the most part, so vigging them while also being able to vote for who we think is supremely pro-town and I'm not going to attack him for that.

Just to point out how ridiculous your #3 point is: Can you say who will post and not post in the next two days? Other than Oozing who said they'd be v/la til the 13th. Cause everybody has the same posting patterns and life can't get in the way period... You're a walking contradiction to your own argument, you didn't say you were going to be V/LA and didn't post. Otherwise your patterns say that you will post. Really, please show all of us how to tell the future, as we'll be much better scumhunters that way.

BTW: How many non-contributing players (since you shouldn't know if they're townie or not) do you have to leave alive (in a constantly deadlined game) to play a decently paced game of mafia so the people that are trying to be active don't give up out of boredom or frustration by not having people play? You show me *ONE* game that was fun for everybody that had lurkers in it. Please.

The way I see things now is that I'm going to vote for Rishi "tomorrow" if I don't die. If you don't want him lynched, don't put him at L-1.

[Amished]

Sorry I didn't specify that caveat then. I still felt that he had his reasons pretty well specified beforehand (of which both of you are quoting) and then you come in to interrogate him. It's making him account for it, and nothing that I've seen regarding him vigging OGB has made me really doubt the townie-ness of the decision. As I try to make it a point of not putting that much pressure on somebody I view to be town, while still keeping an eye on him. My present situation is right in the "target zone" if you will. I'm not pressuring him, while since you're pressuring him I can keep an eye on his responses.

See, I disagree. The point of mafia is to *HAVE FUN*. People lurking is *NOT FUN*. If we go around lynching/vigging/whatever enough lurkers people will participate both making it more fun, and giving scumhunters more information to go off of to find said scum. I obviously feel my outlook is both more long term planning and better for the community overall. You will *not* convince me that letting lurkers lurk is good. I'll take losses if massive amounts of townies are lurking as I'm not that concerned about my record. I'm here to have fun first and foremost. Sure, it's fun to find scum or hide successfully as scum, but it's even funner to me to be able to interact with all people in the game as it's a more complete puzzle to figure out.

[Amished]

What do you see in RP that's scummy? Obviously you can't pull out the disagreeing with a playstyle, nor really lurking as your excuse due to your argument with SOG. Protecting a scumpartner much? Or perhaps you know Lowell is town, and you're still scum. I really wish we had more time, but like I said, I'm coming after you tomorrow.

[Amished]

Lurking is still not that understandable. V/LA is, but not lurking. Leaving without saying shows a lack of respect due to the other players. I'd prefer to be able to lynch people when everyone is interested/active, which is why I like vigging lurkers even more than just lynching them.

I agree that any lynch is better than a no-lynch. However I feel that you're (trying to) dismiss cases against him as all anti-behavior votes. Certainly I know mine is not, and I feel that a Lowell lynch is more likely to hit scum as well as tell us more about other players.

[Amished]

I still think Lowell and Rishi are scum(my), though I don't think we'll get much contribution out of Rising either so it could be worse in a non-LyLo situation. I'll switch in 4-5 hours if it'll get us to a lynch. I'll just check before I head to bed.

[Amished]

Unofficial vote count (for the 2 wagons that matter)

RPhoenix: (4) DGB, Lowell, Rishi, Diamond
Lowell: (4) Hero, EEM, Amished, SOG

I'm willing to switch if somebody votes for RP since we *need* a lynch today. It's not my preferred one, but I'll take a 1/11 chance at the very least of randomly hitting scum than a 0% chance of hitting one by no-lynch. Somebody else has to be around, right?

[Amished]

Agreed. I'm here for about that same timeframe too.

[Amished]

EBWOP: anybody else around? Please?

[Amished]

11 people alive, if only 1 scum 1/11. Went from pure outsider view, and worst possible chance to hit scum. Still almost 10% from a completely unbiased point of view.

[Amished]

Clearly the odds are better than that, but worst case scenario for finding scum I'm taking 10% for free (basically). Clearly I believe odds to be better, but I have no idea what they are exactly and I don't care to speculate and put my foot in my mouth.

[Amished]

How long are you going to be around Hero? I agree with your thought that a Lowell lynch is more likely to hit scum so I'd rather lynch him. However we do need a lynch, and with both you and I voting lowell we can get a lynch if we both switch. I have no idea if anybody else is around though which could very well change how I view things. (one person "lurking" that votes for Lowell, Rishi is here and he could switch if needed is the obvious alternative).

[Amished]

.22 * (very good) + .75 * (moderately bad) + info gained from both us lynching a target, and reducing where scum can hide >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 * Zero information at all, as Mafia will pick off one of us.

It's a question of getting possible anti-scum information vs getting zero anti-scum information. The only time I've ever heard of anybody saying that a No-Lynch is the proper course of action is in a 4 player (3 townie 1 scum) Lylo to raise chance of hitting scum from 25% to 33%. Even if you read how to be a good IC, they say that the only time you can self-hammer is to *prevent* a no-lynch. This setup had to be run through and at least looked over to try to be balanced for a townie lynch every night (and most likely a townie vig-kill D1) so to No-Lynch and not get anywhere more than where we are and get picked off is very very very bad (not just somewhat bad).

[Amished]

That would mean Rishi would have to switch, and we're leaving it up to chance that somebody will come in before the deadline. I do *not* want to leave it to chance.

[Amished]

*sigh* I need to head to bed. As Rishi, Hero and I are the only ones around (apparently) the only way we'll hit a lynch is if both Hero and I switch (without random chance). As I'm leaving, that means I need to vote for Rising, and I'm leaving it up to Hero to choose between a NL and a RP lynch.

Unvote
Vote: RisingPhoenix

Nothing personal RP. Hope this experience didn't scare you away from mafia, you got thrown into a smurfy situation. It'd be a lot better if you went through that link that Hero posted, and start with a new game in the newbie queue.

[Amished]

Still no mod eh? We could've waited then. Wish you guys would've been around last night >_>

[Amished]

Hrmph. At least I'm "not easily guided" I guess... First abandoned game, that makes me kinda sad..

[Amished]

Rishi I was pretty sure of, Hero I wasn't, and Kier lurked too much to get a decent read on him. *shrug*

[Amished]

SOG - Shooting OGB without expressing suspicion beforehand was uncool. I would have said that as town too, though maybe not pushed the point as hard.

And SOG and Amished, you guys were way too aggressive. You made the game not fun to play, at least for me. So I think that's a big part of why the game got abandoned.

I still have no problem with shooting OGB. They weren't around and was suspicious when they were.

There are all types of styles, and if you can't handle aggressive gameplay, I don't know what to say. If everyone is just laid back and doesn't press issues, it's as good as voting out of the RVS.