Mini 805 - Betrayal House - over!

[Slicey]

/confirm, I'll take the last room I guess. >_>

[Slicey]

Sera, Slicey, who would you vote?

Currently, no one.

I think I see why Herodotus suggests a mass name claim. I agree with it.

I have no knowledge of the board game

gah Kast I hope you don't post huge walls of text and force me to replace out like you made me do in Notre Dame Mafia. >____>

[Slicey]

...wait, after thinking it over a little bit, I'm neutral on it. >_> I still want to see if I'm thinking along the same lines as Herodotus.

[Slicey]

Ok. For those who haven't played the game:

Everyone starts the same (since we're not using stats here), and as the players walk through the rooms, they get powers. The mod has said that _some_ of the items are revealed. So all name claiming will reveal is who got what items.

...Well, that's exactly what I was thinking. >_> An idea of who had what could potentially help us find scum.

[Slicey]

Kast - My line of thinking was, for example, let's say somebody died and the flavor may indicate they died via an item that was claimed in the topic by the mod. Now let's say that person who died was a townie. There's a good chance that person who did the kill is scum. However, I realized that the chance of outing scum via items is small, at least this point in the game. We should definitely do a name claim eventually though.

Mod: Were the known items randomized or does it have to do with the items themselves?

When somebody becomes the traitor, do they become self-aligned or on the other team (mafia -> town or town -> mafia)?

[Slicey]

@Slicey-
I would imagine that scum can kill on their own independent of items. I think assuming otherwise is extremely foolish and anti-town.

I believe it would be horrible game balance/design if the scum method of killing were dependent on finding a particular item, and that method was publicly announced in a way that directly narrowed who that player was.

I could more easily believe that some items (ie. axe or revolver) could bestow a killing ability on the wielder, but I would see no reason to believe that scum are more likely to have possession of those items than townies.

@Mod-

Are there any limitations on our movement?

Exactly, which is why I now think it isn't a good idea. It won't help us now. And items can grant scum additional kills.

[Slicey]

And items can grant scum additional kills.

Is this a soft claim?

No. Just poor wording. I'm guessing that there is an item that grants the ability to kill a player. I have no proof there is one, but I'm gonna guess there is.

[Slicey]

@Claus on thematic discussion-
-Is it accurate to say you oppose thematic discussion not because you think it is a bad thing itself, but because you think it distracts from much more useful discussion (ie. more traditional scumhunting)?

I disagree with this viewpoint (regardless of whether it accurately summarizes your objection); I don't believe some thematic discussion will be distracting in any manner that significantly hurts the town.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading the QT in Majora's Mask Mafia and I remember someone telling their scummates to do setup speculation because it makes it look like they're contributing, even when they're not. Thematic discussion on D1 is bad for the town, as is name claiming, because it gives scum a chance to post but not take a stance on anything.

That being said, I strongly dislike the PS wagon, because I see no valid reason for there to be one.

Vote: Kast

for trying to promote setup speculation.

[Slicey]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading the QT in Majora's Mask Mafia

FYI, just because you see one scum player suggesting something in a single scum QT in a single game, does not mean that all instances of that behavior are scummy. In this case, I have not been engaging in the behavior you describe, so your source example is pretty irrelevant. I can see your mistake as a newbie mistake, I can also see it as scum attempting to jump for a pretty craplogic case.

That was just one example. You're not necessarily doing it, but promoting it, saying that there's nothing wrong with setup/thematic speculation (which kinda tie hand in hand). Doing that kind of discussion helps the scum in that they can post without giving many opinions.

and I remember someone telling their scummates to do setup speculation because it makes it look like they're contributing, even when they're not.

Thematic discussion is not equivalent to setup discussion. I have posted some information that is purely thematic and I have tied some thematic discussion with potential setup and game mechanics, but primarily I have argued that we don't know what the setup is and should not make hasty assumptions about it.

Further, in your example, the scum tells his buddies to engage in setup speculation to appear to be contributing without actually contributing. If I limited myself to purely setup discussion, you might have a valid case. If you are arguing that, then please show examples.

Again, you yourself are not only discussing the setup, but you're saying it's not necessarily a bad thing. It is on D1, when we have absolutely no information to go on

Thematic discussion on D1 is bad for the town, as is name claiming, because it gives scum a chance to post but not take a stance on anything.

Are you accusing me of posting without taking stances on anything? I think it's fair to say I've taken more of a stance than most if not all other players and have touched on practically every issue that has been discussed.

I'm accusing you of saying that thematic and setup discussion on D1 is good. It isn't. You're trying to say it is, but it isn't. It does very little for the town, and it lets scum participate without giving opinions on anything.

-Mass name claiming on D1 is not inherently bad. There are many games where it is neutral, and some where it can be beneficial to the town. I don't believe that this is either one of those games.

Mass name claiming on D1 is almost never good. Especially in this game. Yes, I was originally for it, but I thought it over some more and realized it could only help scum and there's a very small chance of it helping the town.

-Thematic discussion on D1 is not bad; it has helped us arrive at the conclusion that mass name claiming is probably not a good course of action for D1. It also has not prevented us from scum hunting.

See above

Vote: Kast

for

[OMGUS]

.

Isn't OMGUS if I didn't realize you were voting for me. >________>

@I'll post some thoughts on PS and the rest tomorrow. Good to see things have been moving.

Response in bold.

My original vote on him was not very strong, I admit, but his reaction is telling, IMHO. I'm going to keep my vote on him for the time being.

Also, someone please explain to me why Claus and Oman want a bandwagon on PS because I'm not seeing it.

[Slicey]

I'm here, sorry, my usual D1 lurkiness and business is the reason I haven't posted in a while. I'll read the last couple pages and post some responses soon.

[Slicey]

@Slicey-
How is my reaction telling?

You posted a craplogic argument and aren't addressing my points.

-To be clear:
You claim I am suspicious because I am promoting behavior that scum would tend to engage in.
You are admitting that I am not actually engaging in that behavior.

Your argument needs to address several points:
-Explain how thematic discussion is "bad" for the town. I have shown examples of how it has helped already, and it doesn't take a genius to think of more examples. You have done nothing to show that it hurts us.
--The closest you have come is to claim that scum who participate in thematic discussion might be able to appear to be contributing without actually doing so. If we assume your fears are valid, then we have a new criteria for catching scum; we should allow thematic discussion and watch for players who engage solely in that.

-You also fallaciously argue that simply because a behavior is beneficial to scum, it is automatically bad for town. If we extend your craplogic, then the proposition that it is good for scum to post and vote in a logical manner so they blend with the town would mean that posting and voting in a logical manner is bad and we should lynch anyone who engages in that behavior.

-You are attempting to limit/prevent discussion. This is extremely anti-town.

-Provide some backup for your assertion that mass name claiming on D1 is almost never good; provide some reasoning for why that is especially true for this game. So far, the only reasons I've seen for why it would be bad in this game rely on thematic discussion.

For some stupid reason, when I see people react strongly to a vote placed on them that's a scumtell. It really isn't, and I retract that statement.

To be slightly clearer:
You claim I am suspicious because I am promoting behavior that scum would tend to engage in.
You are engaging in that behavior, but you are also doing other things as well.

-Thematic discussion is bad for town in that it allows scum to participate without having to form opinions on other players.
-I really like that second point.

-Hmm.. good point. I think the situations are different, but I see where you're coming from.

-That's a lie. I am trying to limit a certain type of discussion. But I know how you play, and thus I know how you came to this conclusion, and thus you will somehow twist my words to make your statements true, because you can

never

be wrong.

-Do I really need to provide examples from other game why mass nameclaim is bad? For this game, if we nameclaim, then scum will know who has some of the items. For example, if someone picks up, say a police badge for arguments sake. That sounds like an item that would grant a cop scan. Now if the scum knew who had that item, they would probably kill that person.

Unvote

Our debate is mostly on theory. My original vote on Kast was for a weak reason, and he reacted in a pro-town manner. More will come up in a bit.

[Slicey]

banana's vote on Nam is pure OMGUS. Other than that, banana hasn't done much scummy things. He's obviously a newbie, and newbscum will generally wagonhop. Banana has done quite the opposite. I have a neutral read on him. But can you give us a suspicions list.

I was actually getting some scummy vibes from Oman in the beginning, because his vote on PS seemed unjustified. Recently though, I've gotten some really strong town vibes from him.

Claus, meanwhile, has been really scummy, especially that last post. First, you begin a BW on PS that I still can't figure out. I see absolutely no reason for a wagon on him at that time or now. Because he agreed with Herodotus on waiting on other people's thoughts about massclaiming? Is that why you originally voted for him? I could be wrong, I honestly don't see how you can justify the wagon.

Because scum wants to find easy cases. They make weak attacks and see if other people will follow with them. Then back down of those attacks that don't work out immediately. This is called "Staying on the wall".

Let's see:
Weak attack against PS. Check.
Waited to see if other people would follow (Oman, Ash[?][not sure if this was random or not, pretty sure he said that somewhere though]). Check.
Back down after you see that the PS wagon is going nowhere because of 'poor' reasons. Check.
Make another weak attack against another player (now Ash). Check.

Really? I see more, but then again, I'm town and I'm trying to look for scum. You are just trying to find a convenient excuse to attack someone. Let me fix that. You are just trying to save your ass, because I'm not going to let go off you so easily.

This was in response to PS not finding anything noteworthy in the first three pages. Hi, I didn't see anything else either. Does that make me scum too? Just because someone doesn't have suspicions within the first three pages doesn't mean they're not trying. I personally have a lot of difficultly analyzing the beginnings of a game, thus why I generally lurk on D1.

I don't believe PS's vote on you was OMGUS, and I find it scummy that you do. He gave reasons for voting for you.

@All: Do you think PS's vote on Claus was OMGUS?

Then you realize that the PS 'badwagon' was going nowhere and decided to place a rather 'bad' vote on Ash IMHO. Maybe he didn't take his random vote off because he didn't find anybody scummier? Generally, I see people who take off their random votes just to get rid of them is a slight scumtell IMHO. There's really no reason to take it off. Ash didn't take his vote off, which I think was a towntell. But just to clarify:

Ash: Was your vote on PS random? Did it change to a serious vote at any point in time or was it always random?

So,

Vote: Claus

for:
- Trying to push a bad wagon on PS
- Doing the exact same things you're saying PS is doing
- Realizing that the BW was going nowhere, and changed your vote to someone else for a poor reason.

Alright, it's 2 A.M, so I'm going to sleep. G'nigh-ZzzzzzZzzzzz

[Slicey]

Oman, what do you think of my case on Claus?

[Slicey]

And you think the case on Ash has so much more than my case?

[Slicey]

To be slightly clearer:
You

{Kast?}

claim I

{Slicey?}

am suspicious because I am promoting behavior

{?}

that scum would tend to engage in.
You are engaging in that behavior, but you are also doing other things as well.

Ironically, I'm finding this unclear due to the bolded parts (undefined references.)

...Gah, totally messed that up. I meant I claim he was suspicious because he is promoting behavior that scum would tend to engage in. He was doing it, but doing other things as well.

Hope it now makes sense. >_>

[Slicey]

And you think the case on Ash has so much more than my case?

No real preference either way.

So you would be willing to vote Claus if the alternative is no lynch?

[Slicey]

Well then why do you keep picking the same people that Claus picks?

[Slicey]

Well then why do you keep picking the same people that Claus picks?

<3 mostly.

XD

Anyway, I'd be willing to lynch Claus. Maybe Banana, if the alternative is a no lynch. I haven't seen anything scummy from Skitzer really, can someone tell me why he could be lynch worthy?

[Slicey]

Goddamn I know my 'case' on Kast was bad. I wanted to see how he reacted to it, and I felt he did in a protown manner. It's almost impossible to get a read on him, so I'm gonna do whatever it takes to try and get a read on him.

Deadline is Monday, and some people find me scummy, so I'm going to claim that I have an item and that item can probably help skitzer, whose stuck in the dark IIRC.

[Slicey]

BTW Hero, I didn't list any scumbuddies of Kast because I don't think he's scum.

[Slicey]

That re-read shouldn't take long. >_>

Qwints, do you actually find Claus scummy?

[Slicey]

Yes, he is.

[Slicey]

Hmm... didn't expect Ash to flip scum.

I'm in the same room as skitzer because he needed my item to get out of the gardens, if anyone is wondering.

[Slicey]

@?-
Good job to whoever killed Ash (if someone did). Please don't reveal yourself.

@Slicey-
You raise several questions:
-How were you able to move to the Garden?
-How did/do you know that he needs help to get out of the Garden?
--Why would you decide to help someone get out of the Garden?
-Does Skitzer know any of this and/or can he confirm what you are saying?

-I had to guess who needed my item (which was a candle BTW). If I guessed correctly I get to move to that room.
- Skitzer mentioned needing help getting out of his room as it was dark. My candle can obviously help him.
- I decided to help skitzer out of the garden because I'm getting a null leaning town read on him.
- I'm assuming he can confirm it. Skitzer, try going into another room.

By the looks of it, that's the only function of my item.

Kast, if you were around, would you have voted Claus? If so, would you vote him because he was scummy or because we almost had a no lynch?

[Slicey]

What did Ash do that was scummy? I didn't see it.

[Slicey]

I fail to see how being surprised that someone flips scum is scummy.

[Slicey]

V/LA the next couple of days

[Slicey]

Responding to prod, sorry I haven't been posting that much. Can someone tell me what room hasn't been visited yet?

[Slicey]

I'll move the Storeroom.

[Slicey]

Mod: Request replacement

This is for personal reasons. I'm sorry all.