Mini 815 - Lazy Neighborhood Mafia (Game Over)

[Iecerint]

Falcomagno's circumstances seem a bit suspect. Sajin, what is your evidence that he was talking to other players?

In a similar vein,

Vote: AshMC

for being colorfully active from the get-go, but never contacting me during Night 0. My other neighbor neither contacted me either. (This is a bit hypocritical on my part because I never contacted either of them.)

[Iecerint]

Ha, I remembered someone else having posted that. My mistake.

Unvote

Vote: TIMEATER

for being my other neighbor, I suppose.

[Iecerint]

Did he communicate with you, halflight?

[Iecerint]

I'm a newer player and have only prior joined games that begin with a /confirm-in-thread phase. Because the mod used the term "confirmation phase" to describe the time when PMs could be exchanged, I thought the early game phases might go [pick-up PM -> /confirm in thread -> RVS -> normal gameplay]. It did occur to me that the first two stages were one and the same, but I decided I'd wait until I was contacted to avoid unwittingly cheating.

Do you have play experience with him? I'm trying to determine why he would send you one PM and not send me one.

[Iecerint]

@ halflight -- The intent of my question was to determine whether you had played a game with him before. If he knew you, that might explain why he would contact you and not me. I thought that he had contacted you first because of this quote:

He sent me one PM. I sent him another he never replied to.

Which I thought implied that you initiated contact. But it now seems that you actually contacted him first:

And I suspect he only replied because I was proactive and sent him a PM first. But I had something I wanted to discuss with him, and he never replied to it.

So I guess there's nothing to explain. To clarify that I now understand your correspondence with halflight:
halflight -> timeater
timeater -> halflight
halflight -> timeater

Is that accurate?

@ Sajin -- It does seem that falko (or someone) is lying, but is there a motive for him to do so? Unless there's some obvious motive I'm missing, this seems more like poor play than scummy play. I'd grant that scum are more likely to screw up than town, though.

@ Y -- The only other games I've played on this site include Newbie 783 (replaced in) and Rabbit Doubt mafia (/confirm-in-thread). This is also the only site where I've played mafia online.

[Iecerint]

Anyway, I might have voted for ZONEACE because my neightbor wanted to, but he is also my neighbor (although he didn't say anything to me), so I wouldn't want to hurt feelings.

To clarify, you're saying that Sir asked you to vote for ZONEACE with him during Night 0?

[Iecerint]

falko, I'm going to attempt to summarize the order in which you received PMs. Let me know if this is inaccurate:

Mod --> falko (role PM)
falko --> Mod (confirms receipt)
Mafia --> falko (conversational PM)
falko --> Mafia (thinks Mafia is co-Mod or something and is confused)
falko --> Mafia (apologizes, says that he had misunderstood who he was)
falko --> Mod (re-confirms)
Sajin --> falko (conversational PM)
(falko tries to look up Mafia's name, but can't get the Search function to work for whatever reason)
falko --> Sajin (conversational response, and asks how the Search functions works)

This is a little weird because you could just reply to the messages you'd received from Mafia without using the Search function. Still, is that accurate?

[Iecerint]

I think all that we know is:

1. The conversations involving falko (I've summarized them; they've yet to be confirmed by falko).
2. The conversations between TIMEATER and halflight (I summarized them; they've yet to be confirmed).
3. I did not converse with either of my partners.
4. Ash has implied that he did not converse with either of his partners.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP (from awhile ago):

Which I thought implied that

he

initiated contact.

I have failed at typing in about half of my posts it seems like.

[Iecerint]

OK, then add one more falko --> MafiaSSK at the end and we're set. This agrees with SSK's comment that falko also PM'd him yesterday.

I think there're still two problems with falko's story:
1. We've heard both that falko realized who SSK was after sending the first (falko --> MafiaSSK) correspondence and, conflictingly, that he realized it after the later (falko --> Sajin) correspondence. He can't have realized it both of these times.
2. He was able to send 2 messages to SSK prior (apparently) to recognizing the use of the Search function or the Reply function. If that's the case, how did he send the first two messages?

At the same time, I share falko's confusion with regard to Sajin's foreknowledge. To me, falko's comment looked like poor play, but only in light of information from SSK that Sajin shouldn't have had prior access to.

It's probable that I've misunderstood something, so please clear this up for me if you would.

[Iecerint]

I think falko's point is that content SSK had access to would have made clear the cause of the apparent discrepancy. If falko is telling the truth, then the material he's referring to is probably the second (falko --> SSK) correspondence, where falko apparently told SSK that he had thought he was a co-Mod (or something like that). I believe falko is arguing that SSK is scummy for having withheld that information.

SSK, why didn't you attempt to contextualize falko's behavior with the content you had access to?

I agree that town access to the complete falko correspondence might help straighten out any slips/misconceptions.

[Iecerint]

So the first time you only realized that SSK wasn't the Mod, but you didn't recognize that he was also a player in the game and your neighbor that you could talk to. Later on, at the very end of all the correspondence, you realized that SSK was not only not the Mod, but also your neighbor and a player in the game you had joined. Is that accurate?

If so, this still doesn't explain how you managed to respond to SSK the first 2 times (as you apparently didn't understand the Search function or Reply button later on). But I also want to hear from Sajin.

[Iecerint]

I posted that not yet having seen your most recent posts; sorry, I take forever to type things out. Even having read your post, I'm a little confused:

Due to conversations had pre game there is a high chance my neighbor is scum.

He was talking to other people yet asked me how I was able to talk to him.

It is now clear that he had been talking to SSK, so this is accurate. However, it is not clear to me how you would know that he had been talking to SSK. The only way I know of that you would be aware of this is if SSK or falko had told you as much. Assuming that you are a town player, you must have heard from falko. You've shown us only the following correspondence between you and falko:

not really. Waitingto the game to proper start I say. And you...what about you.

And plus, how can you contact me?? I tried contact my another neighbour and I could'n see how

His PM (as I read it) says that he tried to contact his other neighbor, but he didn't know how. Did you read it differently, or did you rely on other information for knowledge that falko had spoken to SSK?

Is my confusion any clearer now?

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: The above assumes that there are not clockposition-independent masons in the game. At any rate, I doubt that Sajin is going to claim masons with SSK, as he has made it clear that his information comes from an obvious source.

[Iecerint]

^ As I understand it, he didn't realize that SSK was his neighbor until after he had already asked Sajin how he was able to contact him (i.e. so that he would be able to contact the neighbor who, he thought, hadn't yet contacted him). Once he realized that SSK was his neighbor and that SSK had already PM'd him, he PM'd SSK asking who he found suspicious.

And I understand your last point, falko. Thank you for clarifying that.

[Iecerint]

I think it may just be that Sajin misread the [falko -> Sajin] post that he sent us earlier. There was no reason for him to post it if he didn't think it proved that falko had prior had correspondence with another player.

On the other hand, Sajin has also implied that there is some other yet-unseen PM that might have influenced his view of falko to an even greater degree. falko and Sajin -- why are you being so coy about putting your correspondence out there? You presumably both have access to it, so I don't see why you're baiting one another to post it. That said -- if there's no reason for you to stall further (e.g. there's no sensitive role-related information or whatever included), just post it.

I agree with Ash that SSK's behavior is probably the most difficult to explain away.

Vote: MafiaSSK

for the time being.

Iecerint and ZONEACE. Were either of you aware that you were allowed to communicate with your partners? If so, why did you not do so with Ash?

Check my posts near the end of page 1 and start of page 2. To restate, I knew that I would be allowed to communicate with my neighbors during the "confirmation" phase, but I thought that that phase would come after the "PM pick-up" phase concluded because all other games I'd played featured a /confirm-in-thread game phase.

[Iecerint]

Anyway, I might have voted for ZONEACE because my neightbor wanted to, but he is also my neighbor (although he didn't say anything to me), so I wouldn't want to hurt feelings.

To clarify, you're saying that Sir asked you to vote for ZONEACE with him during Night 0?

I also don't want to forget about this. If Sir or Zeik could comment, that would be excellent.

[Iecerint]

I agree with your summary, except that I don't think this is a lie:

I was the one who contacted him. He hadn't contacted me.

In my English, "hadn't" is pluperfect tense and means "not prior to the time period under discussion." In other words, the second sentence is just clarifying that SSK was the one who initiated the conversation. This is consistent with falko's version of events. I think it's parsimonious to assume that SSK meant it this way because otherwise it would conflict with his own already-stated version of events. It's true that some English speakers don't use pluperfect tense in the standard way; I'm guessing that this may be the case with you, halflight. By contrast, if SSK had typed "He hasn't contacted me," then he would certainly have lied.

In my view, the sketchy thing about SSK is what falko noted -- rather than read his correspondence with falko and try to help the town understand what was going on, he went along with Sajin. It's possible that Sajin is scum who noticed falko's disadvantage and decided to capitalize on it, but I think it's just as likely that either the truly damning evidence against falko is yet to come or that Sajin misinterpreted a bit. I also want to hear from the Sir/Zeik/ZONE trifecta before we tunnel too much.

[Iecerint]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluperfect_tense

The pluperfect action occurs prior to the past action. The past action is SSK contacting falko. The (hypothetical) pluperfect action is falko contacting SSK. The pluperfect action is negated. Therefore, the two sentences mean that falko did not contact SSK prior to SSK contacting falko; in other words, SSK contacted falko first. As I understand it, "hasn't" would mean that falko had never at any point up to the present contacted SSK, which would hypothetically be a lie as we have explicit evidence to the contrary in the form of PMs from falko.

This has gotten a little esoteric; for that matter, people use pluperfect tense non-standardly all the time. However, since assuming that SSK used it standardly makes the most sense in the context of what he and others have already said, I think it's reasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt there.

[Iecerint]

Oh. I see. I thought there was something more exciting than that.

What do you think about Sajin and SSK?

[Iecerint]

My apologies.

unvote, Vote: MafiaSSK

@ Zeik -- SSK is *falko's* other neighbor, not Sajin's other neighbor. I would share your feelings about Sajin if SSK were Sajin's neighbor.

@ Sajin -- If you read Zeik's recent post, I think it becomes clear that Sir didn't actually ask anyone to vote for ZONEACE. Zeik just used some ambiguous language before to imply as much. What he meant was that his "neighbor" had already voted for (his other neighbor) ZONEACE.

I am still not satisfied with your case against falko, and I will not be satisfied until you show the town whichever of the unseen PMs you think incriminates him. I don't think the town has seen evidence that you knew he was talking to scum during Night 0. If you post said PM as halflight, Y, and I have suggested, we will be in a better position to judge falko/Sajin/SSK.

The only information I have about falko's alignment is what I've heard from you and falko. At present, it seems that you're saying an unseen PM will really nail falko good or whatever, but you won't show us the PM. I don't have to be the same alignment as falko to find that suspect. Granted, the fact that falko won't show it either may imply that there's actually sensitive information in it.

[Iecerint]

Also, Sajin, I think you've contradicted yourself now:

1- Did I say it was directed to your scumbuddy? No it just made no sense to me. Stop putting words where words were not said.

My logic shows that Falco was likely talking to scum/mafia (that does not mean MafiaSSK, about half the people posting on this issue are confused about this).

[Iecerint]

Sajin, if your correspondence conflicts with falko's, please post it. Otherwise, I don't see a PM that incriminates falko. The most suspicious thing is the weak rolefishing in your first message to him.

Sir, I think the confusion about Zeik/ZONE is based on this:

Anyway, I might have voted for ZONEACE because my neightbor wanted to, but he is also my neighbor (although he didn't say anything to me), so I wouldn't want to hurt feelings.

Zeik just meant that you had (random)voted for ZONEACE, but I read it as a Night 0 event. It took Zeik awhile to correct me, so some players had already latched onto this.

[Iecerint]

But anyways, I could really replace SSK with killa seven. It makes no difference since I never said anything that SSK personally did.

You understand the killa seven has literally never posted, and is not your neighbor? Or is that your point -- that you don't really have strong reads at this time?

If Falko won't show us, then it's up to you to clear your own name.

Actually, falko already posted his correspondence; he just screwed up the quotes. Check the last page. I do think that Sajin should either post his conflicting PMs or agree with what falko posted and show why it's scummy.

The only reason I can imagine that a town player would have stalled this long is if he had revealed sensitive role information in PM, but I have no idea why a town player would do that Night 0 AND Sajin was baiting falko to post his PMs earlier (implying that said sensitive information was not contained therein). On the other hand, I think this is a really big, silly gamble for scum to make.

@ MafiaSSK -- Thank you for that information. If you could answer two more questions, please.

1. Why didn't you help us by using your knowledge of the PMs between you and falko? Sajin didn't have access to those PMs, so it's certainly reasonable to determine whether he's made an error.
2. Have the events on pages 2-3 altered your perspective? How do you read the Sajin-falko circumstances? Are there other players whose actions you think we should investigate?

@ Everyone -- Did any neighbors of lurkers (e.g. killa seven) interact with said lurkers during Night 0?

[Iecerint]

@ halflight

hello, are you scum in Tarballs mafia game?

If you had ad adjective to describe the attitude of your role what would it be?

I assume you're referring to the word "attitude" ? To be honest, I hadn't noticed that. That does seem more like falko's language than Sajin's. If falko invented this PM, it would also explain what appears to be strange rolefishing on Sajin's part. I have a hard time believing that scum would fabricate something so easily shown to be false; then again, I also have a hard time believing that scum would take the kind of gamble Sajin would hypothetically be taking right now.

@ Zeik - When you posted your original who-is-town list, did you misunderstand who was whose neighbor, or did you just mistype the neighbor's name? You've said that you made an error, but I want to confirm whether it was a misunderstanding error or a typing error.

@ Ash - In the context of an online mafia game, I don't think that how long it takes to respond to PMs is a very reliable tell.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP

Unvote

[Iecerint]

Oh, I missed that until just now falko took 24+ hours to respond AFTER already opening the PM. I thought we were just judging the total time between the message and its response. This is quite a bit different and better-matches the degree of attention the issue has received.

Newbie question ~ how does one determine when a PM has been opened? I messed around my inbox and couldn't find separate timestamps for "time sent" and "time picked-up."

[Iecerint]

Thank you both.

Ash, it seems like you agree with Sajin that the [falko -> Sajin] PM you've quoted was intended for a scum third party. This is the relevant PM:

not really. Waitingto the game to proper start I say. And you...what about you.

And plus, how can you contact me?? I tried contact my another neighbour and I could'n see how

Could you please explain to me what features of the text imply it was intended for scum? (Disclaimer: to me, this matches the Sajin query reasonably, barring some awkward English ("not really").)

[Iecerint]

OK, I can see where you're coming from. Since the structure of his answer matches the structure of Sajin's question, I'm inclined to believe that it was intended to be an answer to Sajin's question:

Sajin: Waiting for X?
falko: No. I'm waiting for Y.

I agree that the word choice is very awkward ("not really" in particular has unfortunate connotations), but I think the structure should convince you that the PM is intended to respond to Sajin's PM.

This doesn't preclude that falko is scum, or even that this PM has a scummy interpretation (e.g. maybe falko asks Sajin how to contact players in order to contact scumbuddies, as he'd already received PMs from both his neighbors and says he knew how to use the Reply button -- even if he claims he didn't recognize SSK as his other neighbor at the time).

I'm quite curious as to whether that first [Sajin -> falko] PM is real. I'm inclined to agree with halflight that it is highly suspicious, and Sajin has implied that he hasn't laid down all his cards yet.

[Iecerint]

FoS: falko

At best, you are underestimating the occasional ambiguity of your English. If this is the case, please recognize that well-intentioned players will at times misinterpret what you have said. Otherwise, you run the risk of alienating players and leading us to a mislynch.

At worst, you've done the very thing you just accused Ash of doing -- you've only quoting part of his post and have implied that he didn't include your entire post in his answer.

I believe he feels the need to explain his position on your PM ("find holes in my statements") because I asked him to do so. He would be more scummy, not less, had he failed to find holes, as he had already claimed to have interpreted that your PM was addressed elsewhere.

I've decided to FoS rather than Vote because I leave for vacation tomorrow morning and may not have internet access. I may be able to check in briefly Tuesday night to change things.

[Iecerint]

^ Are you saying that you don't want him to post his version of the PM, or just that you don't necessarily want him to lay out all his cards?

[Iecerint]

^ Is it a typo that changes the content, or something trivial? Assuming the latter, why the weak rolefishing? Did you send a similar PM with weak rolefishing to killa, your other neighbor?

[Iecerint]

Back for the night. I'll be leaving again tomorrow morning and will be back again Friday night:

@iec: if falko has lied about communications (more than just a typo) I see no reason why Sajin shouldn't out him immediately. If there is something else involved, he might do best to keep it to himself.

To keep whether or not it was a typo to himself? Why? It'd just take a single word. I'd almost venture that he's deliberately dragging this out, or else he has some kind of improbable post-restriction. I think you may be giving Sajin too much of the benefit of the doubt.

Why has no one else commented on the rolefishing in the initial PM that Sajin has confirmed was his?

Maybe Falko didn't fabricate the PM. But if that's so, then that doesn't explain why Sajin's PM and posting style are so vastly different.

If falko didn't fabricate the PM (and he didn't), why should we care about discrepancies in Sajin's style?

...Which really does not make sense to me, either, as Sajin simply said that he thought Falko was merely communicating with scum, but he never specified who that scum was.

Maybe someone can clear something up for me. As I recall, Sajin has both claimed that falko was talking to scum and has become angry at falko for pointing out that he said as much. When I pointed out this contradiction to Sajin, he claimed there was no discrepancy and accused me of being falko's scumbuddy. I've noticed that no one except falko got behind this point, though, which implies either that lots of players missed our exchange (less likely), or that there's a solution to the apparent contradiction. Given the latter, what is it?

But the emphasis you put on that one part is what I'm having trouble with. Did Falko just write it in a way that made him just sound like he was communicating with others, or was he actually communicating with others? Or does he legitimately think that MafiaSSK is scum, and that's what he was talking about?

Why the questions? We've presumably seen all the PMs by this point. Falko wrote no such PM. It could be that Sajin made the same error in reading the second PM as did Ash, but the structure made it a pretty clear response-PM IMO.

I've agreed with most of Y's posts.

[Iecerint]

killa_seven, did Sajin send you a PM during Night 0 analogous to this one:

hello, are you scum in Tarballs mafia game?

If you had ad adjective to describe the attitude of your role what would it be?

[Iecerint]

Back again:

1. halflight, I would appreciate it if you would respond to the quotes in my previous post. Also, please refrain from implying unequal knowledge of the set-up. I believe that it is anti-town.
2. I agree with Y and Ash with regard to Sajin's lack of cooperativeness. I am not certain that he is scum, because I think this would be a very silly pre-game gamble for scum to make. [/wifom] I will nonetheless

Vote: Sajin

to encourage his cooperation.
3. Sajin was correct about Zone's reason for not using his limited masonry. I won't dwell on this as I didn't use mine, either.
4. I was going to argue that SSK's vote for Zone based on "overreacting" was not well-motivated, but, as said vote was followed by a genuine overreaction, maybe I misread Zone's posts. I am not yet certain whether to believe Zone's claim, but I believe said claim was anti-town.
5. Ash, Zone's neighbors are you and Zeik. Why didn't you mention yourself in the context of "Zone's neighbors" ?

Also, when did the Mod claim that the set-up was pre-determined? (I don't see it under Game-Specific Rules.) Moreover, the rules state that neighbors will be adjusted at night (maybe just to account for lynches and NKs, but maybe not), so, assuming that neighbor adjustment is random and occurs at the start of each night, I'm inclined to believe that the hypothetical pre-determined aspect of the set-up may be as simple as Mafia not being neighbors.

[Iecerint]

On that note,

Mod, may I request confirmation on this point from the ruleset:

3.

Everyone can talk during nights with the two players that have been assigned as their neighbors by PMs. Each night everyone will have two other players assigned as their neighbors.

Is the second sentence intended to clarify that each individual will have two neighbors during all nights (e.g. perhaps neighbors of a lynched/NK'd player become neighbors), or is it intended to communicate that neighbors will change each Night? When will neighbor reassignment resolve?

Apologies if the ambiguity is intentional, or if this has been dealt with elsewhere.

[Iecerint]

Sajin, I voted for you not simply because I disagreed with your conclusions, but because you had implied that you had unrevealed, damaging information against falko that you would unveil at some later time. Players including myself pressed you to reveal said information, but you ignored us. So I voted to increase the pressure on you, which has now led you to reveal that said information did not exist. Since my vote has done what it was intended to do, I will

Unvote

.

Ash, I misinterpreted your comment about "players close to Zone." However, I'm judging from your post that you (unlike Sajin) have been playing under the assumption that neighbors only change following lynches or NKs, as the positions of players more than immediately next to players on Day 1 would be irrelevant otherwise. Is that correct?

Where did SSK claim to know Zone's meta?

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: Hadn't read your post yet, Ash.

I initially assumed the same as Y, but I switched to Sajin's interpretation when he claimed as much and the Mod didn't correct him.

[Iecerint]

The mod mentioned probable pre-determined roles before the game started[...]

To clarify -- the Mod mentioned that players' positions on the circle would be predetermined, the Mod named power roles that may or may not appear, or both? Assuming something other than the former, was Zone's claimed role among those roles?

[Iecerint]

^ I posted that, too. The wording is ambiguous. It may just mean that players will have 2 neighbors every night. In other words, "a player whose neighbors are killed will obtain new neighbors until he has exactly 2." But your interpretation is also possible.

[Iecerint]

Furry, I didn't vote falko because I didn't think that Sajin had put forth very good evidence against him. Since it now turns out that the reason for this is that Sajin didn't

have

very good evidence against him, I'm quite happy with my decision. I agree with you that Sajin, if scum, shouldn't try to set-up 1-1 exchanges. That's WIFOM, but it's silly-enough scum play that I think it's still worth considering. That's why I'm not currently voting for Sajin. On the other hand, I don't think that Sajin is taking what falko has been saying into account; rather, he's been repeating a weak case and saying that anyone who disagrees with him may be scum. This seems scummy to me, because I think that a town player would consider the possibility that they've misread the situation, especially when the other player has a somewhat weaker command of English.

I think [falko] thought that SSK was his partner or something along those lines.

I think you may be confused here. SSK is falko's other partner -- he is NOT Sajin's partner. Zeik made the same mistake earlier. If he were Sajin's partner, I would view things very differently.

I don't like Zeik's vote on Zone, either. He may be lying, but I think that's an issue we should resolve tomorrow at the earliest.

[Iecerint]

Timeater has posted 1 time to say that he was late to the game and would catch up. That was July 6th. He may need prod abuse and/or replacement.

killa has posted 3 times. First, he asked what Sajin meant when he PMed him saying he would assume that he was not vanilla. Then, he repeated his question the next day when Sajin had not answered. (I do not believe Sajin ever answered.) Finally, he posted to confirm that Sajin sent him the same rolefishing Night 0 PM as Sajin sent to falko.

I'd missed that Sajin apparently sent killa a follow-up rolefishing PM. The first one was scummy enough, but I could almost overlook it as a getting-the-conversation-going PM at a time when no content to speculate about yet existed. A second one definitely requires explanation.

Sajin, why did you send this type of PM to neighbors on Night 0? Why did you follow-up in killa's case with another rolefishing PM?

[Iecerint]

^ To clarify, are those "you"s directed specifically at me, or are you using them impersonally?

[Iecerint]

^ Furry just replaced in.

[Iecerint]

As more players have claimed to have been on the same wavelength as Y than as you, I think your position is the position that requires justification, if any. I'm inclined to believe that you simply misinterpreted the rule.

[Iecerint]

I see how you could take it that way, Sajin.

halflight, I'm not sure what question you're referring to, but if you mean my request that you not imply higher knowledge of the setup, I was referring to this:

Incidentally, there's a very good reason to speak with neighbors at night. I've given you a very good hint as to what that reason is; I think you're smart enough to figure it out.

It seemed that you were implying that you had privileged knowledge of mechanics, which may imply that you are a PR. If you are town, this kind of impression is dangerous to you for obvious reasons. I wasn't intending to imply that you were speculating too much about the setup.

[Iecerint]

Ye, falko and Sajin are both pretty free with the scumwand.

Sajin, it was my impression that you thought falko had been talking to other players because one of the PMs seemed to be directed to a (scum) third party. You've implied that said PM was that first one you posted (which Ash misinterpreted similarly).

So long as you're answering Y's questions, could you answer two more?

1. Why did you avoid posting the PMs for so long?
2. Can you explain why you asked your neighbors to describe the "attitude" of their roles?

[Iecerint]

Thank you. It's too bad that there are a lot of corpses keeping us from being neighbors.

[Iecerint]

Furry, you raise some good points, and I can generally see where you're coming from. For example, I agree that falko is claiming that some pretty elaborate circumstances took place during Night 0. At the same time, I think that Sajin's behavior is at best occasionally difficult to understand, and at worst scummy:

1. He PR fish'd both his neighbors Night 0, which your recent post indicates you would frown upon.
2. He somehow knew that falko had been talking to third parties (explained either via differential time lag or on the basis of lucky misinterpretation of a PM).
3. He both claimed that said third party was scum and attacked falko for misrepresentation for mentioning as much.
4. He has been hypersensitive to scrutiny and (until recently) uncooperative when questioned.
5. He implied that he had further information on falko when none existed (ostensibly to pressure falko).

This is not to say that there is not (perhaps equally strong) evidence that Sajin may be town, but I don't think his play has been quite as cut-and-dried as you have posted thus far.

I'm curious as to your take on Y's play.

Now to "know" this in the extent that falco is saying and have him be scummy, he would actually of had to be talking to someone else. To have him actually be talking to someone else and him be scummy for knowing it, he would have to be scum as well. So yeah, this has got to be the worst possible point you can be making here.

Could you clarify this passage? I may have your pronouns confused here.

Every player should send a duplicate of anything, especially suspicions/cases, to each player. That way nothing can be faked. So both neighbors get each PM, please

I'm not sure about this. For example, I may not want to share sensitive information with neighbors I do not trust.

[Iecerint]

It's a little out-of-date now, but here're the quotes I've been referring to:

Maybe Falko didn't fabricate the PM. But if that's so, then that doesn't explain why Sajin's PM and posting style are so vastly different.

If falko didn't fabricate the PM (and he didn't), why should we care about discrepancies in Sajin's style?

...Which really does not make sense to me, either, as Sajin simply said that he thought Falko was merely communicating with scum, but he never specified who that scum was.

Maybe someone can clear something up for me. As I recall, Sajin has both claimed that falko was talking to scum and has become angry at falko for pointing out that he said as much. When I pointed out this contradiction to Sajin, he claimed there was no discrepancy and accused me of being falko's scumbuddy. I've noticed that no one except falko got behind this point, though, which implies either that lots of players missed our exchange (less likely), or that there's a solution to the apparent contradiction. Given the latter, what is it?

But the emphasis you put on that one part is what I'm having trouble with. Did Falko just write it in a way that made him just sound like he was communicating with others, or was he actually communicating with others? Or does he legitimately think that MafiaSSK is scum, and that's what he was talking about?

Why the questions? We've presumably seen all the PMs by this point. Falko wrote no such PM. It could be that Sajin made the same error in reading the second PM as did Ash, but the structure made it a pretty clear response-PM IMO.

Regarding the other, I thought you were telegraphing a night communication-based PR, but it sounds like you were just alluding to theory. I agree that it's not best to get it out in the open, and I wasn't requesting as much.

It may be easier to judge Zone's claim after tonight. I think that should wait until Day 2. I agree that his claim was anti-town, but that doesn't necessarily make him scum.

[Iecerint]

^ Is there someone you think we're not interrogating adequately? How do you view the Sajin/falko situation? What about SSK~halflight/Y~Me?

[Iecerint]

Why would you deliberately vote Zone illegally? I don't understand what good could possibly come of that.

[Iecerint]

I think Zone should just give us two recent games. Dragging things out like this wastes time; I find it scummy for the same reason that I found Sajin's lack of cooperation somewhat scummy. I think meta isn't the best source of evidence, but it definitely helps.

[Iecerint]

^ What were you trying to prove? That Zone wasn't cooperative?

[Iecerint]

Zone, you should just post the name of such a game in-thread. Then we can all look at it, confirm that you were town and claimed with few votes, and recognize that it's a null tell based on your meta.

[Iecerint]

Welcome, Drake.

Regarding SSK -- I'm not sure. Fake voting strikes me as a silly idea, anyway. It's not as if the fake vote put Zone at L-1 or something. He could've voted for real and still gotten the equivalent effect. This doesn't mean he's not done some strange things. I think he bought into Sajin's theory too quickly; I don't think falko had even posted yet. And his "fake vote" has pulled a claim, even if that's not what his intent was.

At the end of the day, I kinda agree with you. Whether he really fake voted or is lying about it, it's not clear to me why he did it.

[Iecerint]

^ If I recall correctly, I think he's referring to that you first were evasive, then said there was no reason, and then said you couldn't trust anybody.

[Iecerint]

Zone, I've gone back and reread, and you're right. You've been consistent in your reason for not PMing people -- you won't PM them until you have a read on them. That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

However, I think harping on SSK's fake-or-not random vote isn't the way to go, either. If he's lying, he's just misguidedly trying to save face, since admitting as much doesn't make him look town. The scummy parts of SSK has been neglecting to clear up the falko issue and tunneling on you.

[Iecerint]

Sajin, you haven't posted in a few days. What do you make of Zone's claim and its aftermath?

[Iecerint]

^ You prior stated that you thought SSK was town, but your most recent post doesn't differentiate between SSK and Zone, which may imply that you have become more uncertain of SSK's alignment. Have you become more uncertain of SSK's alignment?

[Iecerint]

^ Here's the evidence against Sajin I posted a few pages ago (parentheses indicate town explanations he has given for his behavior):

1. He PR fish'd both his neighbors Night 0, which your recent post indicates you would frown upon.
2. He somehow knew that falko had been talking to third parties (explained either via differential time lag or on the basis of lucky misinterpretation of a PM).
3. He both claimed that said third party was scum and attacked falko for misrepresentation for mentioning as much (claimed no conflict here).
4. He has been hypersensitive to scrutiny and (until recently) uncooperative when questioned.
5. He implied that he had further information on falko when none existed (ostensibly to pressure falko).

On the Sajin-is-town side, we have the [WIFOM, but still credible] argument that scum wouldn't set themselves up for a Day 2 lynch like this. Falko's also posted some smear posts recently that don't seem to evidence trying to understand the other player's perspective, which I find somewhat scummy.

[Iecerint]

1. You asked your neighbors to summarize the "attitude" of their role. That's rolefishing in my book. You've said that you have an explanation for it, but that you'll only tell me what it is if you're my neighbor.
2. I think you're misunderstanding here. I'm agreeing that the time lag between picking up the PM and responding is worthy of suspicion. That's why I have it in the parentheses. It still warrants a spot on my list because that's a pretty extreme logical leap of faith.
3. As I recall, falko asked how you would know that he was talking to scum (presumably, hypothetically), and you responded by saying that you had never accused as much and not to put words in your mouth. Maybe I'm misremembering this point or there was a miscommunication between the two of you here (as I have since speculated in-thread).
4. I agree that you are addressing them now. I include that in the parentheses. But you were REALLY obstinate for a long time.
5. What was it? I thought you claimed that you were only claiming you had more information to pressure falko. (Or do you mean "I did" as in "I did do that one"?)

[Iecerint]

I'm on the fence between you and falko. Falko's story about what happened Night 0 is highly bizarre (he contacted SSK, thought he was the mod, realized his mistake, apologized, asked you how to contact his partner, realized SSK was his partner, etc.), and, now that all the facts are out there, it takes a leap of faith to believe all of it. He's also gotten a little too free with calling everyone scummy as the day has wore on. Therefore, his is a reasonable case.

On the other hand, the facts are only out because you seemed to know a lot of details that by all rights you shouldn't have had access to, and I still haven't gotten a very good explanation out of you. The two best explanations I've gotten are that you misinterpreted that first PM and that the time lag between opening the PM and responding was large. The former is not persuasive to me because the structure of the PM is very transparently a response to your PM as I see it, but Ash was confused like you, so maybe I shouldn't discount that. The latter is a slightly better explanation, but it doesn't come close to explaining your confidence out of the gate.

Regarding the other, I'm not sure I understand your point. Were you intending to send a similar PM to your subsequent neighbors?

[Iecerint]

This is the PM we're talking about, to be clear:

hello, are you scum in Tarballs mafia game?

If you had ad adjective to describe the attitude of your role what would it be?

Sajin has said that there's a typo here somewhere; until either falko or Sajin say otherwise, I'm going to assume that "ad" should be "an" and that no other typo exists.

Sajin is looking for a single adjective. To me, this implies that he's not just asking his neighbors whether they like their role. That wouldn't fit with the request for an adjective. Rather, he wants a word descriptive of the role. For example, a doctor might be "caring" or "protective."

[Iecerint]

^ I wanted to clarify that halflight's speculation that you meant to ask whether your neighbors liked their roles was unlikely to be correct. This is relevant because merely asking whether someone likes his role is not quite as objectionable as requesting role adjectives.

SSK, there's a reason that rolefishing is viewed with derision. Scum wants to know who's the cop and who's the doctor. Town doesn't need to know this unless said person is about to be lynched, or as a counter-claim. Barring an improbable PR that has the mod scan PMs for truth or lies, I think Sajin erred if he is a town player. At best, he has gained information he does not need. At worst, he appears scummy.

[Iecerint]

I don't think falko's posts are really THAT incomprehensible. I share your frustration with regard to K7, though. I wish Drake would post more, too, and that Furry would catch up. He may be reading more slowly than we generate content.

Has anyone posted a serious criticism against K7? I wasn't aware that there was anything to criticize, and I don't mean that as a compliment.

[Iecerint]

Drake, you've commented that it took falko a long time to produce the PM transcripts. What do you make of Sajin never producing said transcripts?

halflight may be referring to Zone's claimed PR.

[Iecerint]

falko, you've said that Zone is not a player who makes good contributions, regardless of his alignment. That aside, what do you make of his PR claim? You've said (and I think we all agree) that he claimed way too quickly, but do you think the claim itself is credible?

[Iecerint]

^ When there were already two established wagons? I doubt you'd have ever come anywhere near L-1.

[Iecerint]

Y, to clarify, when you say that his claim was stupid, are you referring to the content of the claim, or the fact that he claimed at all?

[Iecerint]

I think his claim may be fake, but I'm not sure. I'll have more evidence of this at the start of Day 2. I'll share my reasoning with a neighbor during Night 1 to ensure that town has access to my information. I don't think we should lynch him today.

[Iecerint]

There is a point where [Y] says that he is reading into it wrong, then present the "right" way to do it.

Could you quote this? I don't recall it.

Attacking a playstyle is about one of the scummiest things you can do.

Depends on what you mean by "playstyle."

I agree with you that Sajin and falko are not doing a very good job of considering that Sajin may have just jumped the gun

Where do your "scumminess" numbers come from? That is, do you decide categorically how scummy a player is, and then give a number, or is there a more transparent algorithm in there somewhere?

I think it's curious that you don't find SSK scummier based on what you've said. I think he blindly accepted Sajin's dilemma-type story without trying to work things out. By contrast, I think halflight and I were the two players who tried to get both sides of the story. I should add that SSK's behavior has changed since page 2, though.

ZH switched away from the falko wagon? I missed it. Good point, if it's accurate.

Ash had been expressing suspicion of SSK the entire time; I don't recall him following ZH without prior evidence of suspicion. In my mind, Ash has been another player that tries to look outside the Sajin-falko dichotomy. Please quote the relevant passages, though. Again, good point if it's accurate.

There's reason to believe that starting positions are not 100% random.

Ash is scum. ZH, falco, Ice and Y are somewhat scummy. You got at least two if not all the anti-town in that list there. ZA is obvtown, Sajin, SSK and HL are all easy town calls.

For a player ostensibly against the "dichotomy," you seem to've kinda bought into it.

[Iecerint]

I have to agree with this. It was a vote based purely on WIFOM and trying to encourage a person. This deserves an

FOS:Iec

To clarify, you're referring to my actual vote against Sajin (i.e. the one intended to encourage Sajin to reveal his evidence against falko), right?

[Iecerint]

Could you clarify how the vote was based on WIFOM? I agree that it was trying to encourage a person, though.

[Iecerint]

Oh, I see. The WIFOM part is actually an argument for Sajin being town. I'm justifying my not having prior voted for Sajin in spite of agreeing with Y and Ash. The vote is unrelated. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Iecerint]

If everyone says that a certain player is town, that player is condemned to NK, the town is left with maximally scummy players, and scum can hide more easily. You should avoid listing town reads for this reason. It's true that one player doing this isn't totally crippling, but your behavior still contributes to that sort of thing. I think that's why halflight is encouraging you to alter your play.

I think scum tells tend to be more reliable than town tells. Town tells can almost always be explained by scum wanting to look town. The opposite is not true of scum tells.

What do "VI" and "PoE" refer to?

[Iecerint]

Drake, we're coming up on a week since your first post. Are you any closer to being caught-up?

[Iecerint]

I unvoted SSK because he'd just answered a series of questions I'd directed at him, and I was satisfied with his answers. It's true that I haven't voted as much as I could have so far. The reason for this is that Sajin seems the scummiest to me (for reasons I've listed; check my iso), but it's poor play for scum to set up implicit 1-for-1 exchanges. So I've been trying to puzzle that out.

Drake, you've commented that it took falko a long time to produce the PM transcripts. What do you make of Sajin never producing said transcripts?

halflight may be referring to Zone's claimed PR.

I have no idea what you find scummy about this. O_o

[Iecerint]

Zeikhunter, you said earlier that you were voting ZA because you "agree." It's a bit difficult to tell from the official vote tallies who you were agreeing with. Could you clarify?

Super, please clarify why post 374 is scummy.

Drake, you and your predecessor have literally not yet participated in this game. I intend to possibly share something with either you or Super tonight, but I'd like to have enough content to make an informed decision.

Wish Sajin were here.

[Iecerint]

Super, posts 1-3 were present before N0. The edit you've noticed is because of a prior ambiguity in the rules. You can check the Mod's iso for the circumstances of the rulechange. What did you hope to call the town's attention to by asking this question?

Drake, Sajin is V/LA at the moment, but what he's said on that subject is that the two tells have been the first PM he posted for us (allegedly appears to be addressed to a third party, which I personally don't see, but Ash also thought as much at first; Ash later agreed that it was not addressed to a third party, but Sajin has yet to IIRC) and the long time lag between falko opening one of the PMs and responding to it (Sajin claimed this implied falko was seeking advice from scumbuddies with regard to how to respond).

[Iecerint]

^ Are you literally admitting to active lurking? O_o

Vote: ZeikHunter

I don't like blindly accepting Sajin's view, I don't like the vote for ZA, I don't like the active lurking and lack of scumhunting, and I don't like first complaining about not being asked any questions and then asking for replacement as soon as one is asked.

[Iecerint]

^ In fairness to ZH, he did say that he was lynched in a recent game for being overeager. Not that that totally vindicates him.

[Iecerint]

If ZH is scum, that decreases the chance that falko is scum, but I don't think it affects the probability that Sajin is scum. If Sajin was wrong about falko, then scum had a motive in cheering for him regardless of his alignment.

[Iecerint]

Could someone provide a link to other games that have included the Gunsmith role?

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: Bonus points if it was modded by Tarballs

[Iecerint]

Thank you, SSK. That's a big help.

[Iecerint]

^ Super, please answer my question.

[Iecerint]

The downside to such a plan is that there is a higher probability of scum hearing most of the Night talk. Moreover, scum only has a motive to lie about the information if pretty sensitive information was shared. Because of that, I think there's still a place for discretionary one-neighbor-only PMs. But Furry's plan is probably a good idea in some circumstances.

[Iecerint]

That may be wise for vanilla players, but I could imagine that some PRs might give enough data for a player to trust one or both of his neighbors. Namely, ZA's claimed role.

[Iecerint]

Unless I'm mistaken, in the case you've set up, there's a 1-1 between you and A. The town will kill you tomorrow, and town comes out ahead.

[Iecerint]

^ You might want to do all you can to gather enough information to choose your target successfully.

[Iecerint]

Furry, is that a continuation of your gradual readthrough? I was under the impression you were caught-up due to your ZH vote.

[Iecerint]

Ah, I see; my mistake.

[Iecerint]

halflight, I've just read your iso and have noticed that you have never voted or FoS'd. You said in one post that you probably would not vote until you were certain or we were down to the wire. Less than one week remains. I think it would be helpful if you put your vote down somewhere.

K7, this goes for you, too.

[Iecerint]

Drake, are you going anywhere with that line of thought?

[Iecerint]

I think ZA's claim being fake only makes sense if he didn't think it through properly, or if he has a Mafia detection role and isn't near his scumbuddies.

By "impressions," are you referring to reads? Have you found an inconsistency with regard to Furry's response to AtE et al in one of his readthrough posts?

[Iecerint]

Oh my.

[Iecerint]

LOLOLOLOL

amazing.

[Iecerint]

If SSK or Drake heard anything from zwet overnight, I'd be interested to hear about it.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: Maybe I should phrase that differently.

zwet, did you hear anything overnight?

[Iecerint]

zwet, I'm interested to hear what you think of Ash/Drake's play.

[Iecerint]

SSK, was there any sensitive information in your PM to zwet (e.g. would you be OK with sharing it)?

[Iecerint]

I conversed with falko, no replies. Killa picked up but never sent anything.

So you sent stuff to both falko and killa, but neither responded, though both picked up the PMs?

[Iecerint]

^ Disregard that; I missed your follow-up

[Iecerint]

zwet, please comment on Timeater and Drake's play.

Drake, please comment on halflight and zwet's play.

[Iecerint]

OK, well, fair enough.

Vote: zwet

until you've caught up. I'm voting you rather than Drake because he's presumably caught up already and just needs to check the thread.

[Iecerint]

OK, well, this has gone nowhere, so maybe I'll speed things up a bit --

I am the Lazy 1-Shot Vigilante, and I killed SB last night. I killed him because ZH's "Godfather" role seemed that it would give ZA an innocent result, so I thought there was probably another scum close to ZA, and the only other unconfirmed player in that region was SB. Factor-in some links to ZH on Ash's side, lurky/bizarre play from SB, and a somewhat scummy night PM from SB, and I decided to go ahead with it. I was pretty sure ZA would be NK'd, so I didn't think of his result on SB. That's my mistake.

Anyway, the point is that one of zwet, Drake, and ZA is probably scum on the basis that someone within striking distance of me is scum. Of these, I think zwet and Drake are comparatively scummy. halflight was a decent scumhunter early on, but it mostly involved the Sajin/falko situation, which may well have been town-town. He started lurking more as the Day went on until he replaced. zwet's been uncooperative, but that could genuinely be because he hasn't caught up. TIMEATER literally posted once (major lurking), and Drake tried to do the same thing until I encouraged him to post more so that I could make a decision. However, Drake posted more substantively after that, and he was quite quick to the ZH wagon. He was also cooperative during N1.

Unvote

to demonstrate that I do not have a strong bias.

I will share the SB PMs upon request. I will share the Drake PMs upon request pending Drake's approval.

[Iecerint]

I was pretty sure ZA would be NK'd, so I didn't think of his result on SB. That's my mistake.

[Iecerint]

Here's the SB correspondence, so that you have all the information I had available to me:

What do you make of my other neighbor -- Timeater/Drake? Could you clarify why post 374 was scummy? Do you still suspect me? How does Zeik's alignment affect your ideas about the alignments of other players?

You've picked up my PM, but have not responded. Why is that?

I'm sorry, been busy. I will give a response later. Remind me if I forget.

Thank you. Try to get me something by the end of the day tomorrow, if you can.

Drake's second vote on Zeik was literally right after yours. This makes me wary of his play. It doesn't seem like busing but it might be. I'm not sure.

As for why 374 is scummy, I'd rather discuss that in-thread. There might not be a reason at all. I could have been bluffing. Or not.

I want to know what you think of ZoneFace. I also want to know what you think of Furry.

Now that I've seen that the mafia is the "Gun Mafia," I think it's probable that ZA is a Gunsmith and town. I had been wary of the flavorcop claim without the flavor, but, now that the flavor has surfaced, I'm inclined to believe him. ZH's vote for him (and alignment) fits with this, too -- scum probably wouldn't claim Gunsmith if they were right next to their scumbuddy. [/wifom]

The problem is that, seeing as how ZH was the Godfather, this means that (assuming ZA'd get an innocent on ZH) the utility of his role is still unclear. It could be that there is still another mafia near ZA, or it could be that ZA's role was just intended to throw us off.

Since Furry is a replacement and there's no daytalk, I think it's unlikely that he planned that with a scumbuddy. I'm inclined to think he's town for now. I wasn't crazy about his first few posts, though -- I think he bought into the Sajin thing a little too casually.

Do you have any insights with regard to ZA and Furry?

The one substantive SB PM struck me as quite scummy. The case against Drake seemed forced, the bit on 374 is lolwtf, and fishing for my take on the two towniest players seemed like obvscum play. I asked for his insights on ZA and Furry to see if there wasn't an innocent explanation for his asking about them, but he never responded.

[Iecerint]

Don't know where you're getting the 10% number. My thinking was that ZA was probably telling the truth, which meant that there was detect-able scum near him. ZH -- presumably -- wasn't detectable. Furry wasn't scummy. I'm not scum. That leaves Superbridge nearby, and right between the vig and flavor cop.

Super's play had been bizarre. His N1 PMs had been scummy. I had liked Ash's play, but rereading with the other evidence made me pick up on some ZH links. I had also shifted Furry into the "probably town" category, so I took his view of Ash into account. I thought scum would probably target ZA, so I ruled out relying on that.

Obviously, I wished I'd shown a little restraint now that ZA isn't NK'd, but hindsight is 20/20, etc.

[Iecerint]

@ Y -- No, I was referring to zwet and Drake's hypothetical cases on one another. My intent was to steer things in that direction and then use that information to help decide between the two of them. However, nothing's really happened since Thursday independent of or as a response to that. I decided to claim to provide additional basis for suspicion of players near me.

[Iecerint]

I'm not understanding how my behavior comes off as scummy. You can disagree with it if you want -- maybe you thought ZA was lying or wouldn't be near detect-able scum and/or you didn't think he'd be NK'd -- but that doesn't make it scummy.

[Iecerint]

Umm, not to criticize, but even if you're not crazy about my kill last night, surely knowing my role gives a pretty good indication that there's scum fairly near to me, right? We have reason to believe that the setup is predetermined. No scum near ZA is understandable at least in terms of the Gunsmith functionalizing the Godfather, but no scum near the vig is just cruel. Is there a reason that no one's jumping on this?

Vote: Drake; FoS: zwet

I don't have a strong bias between him and zwet; both are reasonable suspects for reasons I've already listed. Drake gets the vote for promising analysis without delivering it, but, as ZA noted, zwet's contribution almost may as well have been nothing.

[Iecerint]

You're totally strawmanning there. First, nowhere have I argued that one of my neighbors must be scum. (I'd bet money on at least one of my neighbors or neighbors' neighbors being scum, but that's another issue.) Second, I never said that SB was "sure scum," not even because of ZA's role. Proximity to ZA was/is just a factor to consider alongside everything else.

As far as I can tell, your perspective makes sense only if you think I am lying about my role or you are scum.

[Iecerint]

Y -- do you think it's a reasonable assumption that someone within 2 units of me is scum? Assuming no (otherwise, your fixation on my behavior over more productive matters makes little sense), do you think any weight should be given to the positions of roles in this game?

[Iecerint]

@ zwet -- All I can gather from your meta is that certain players (Albert et al) are grouchy when you play with them and that you claimed Edward on page 1 in Twilight mafia. I had assumed that your meta was "charmingly obnoxious behavior" rather than "minimalist lurky behavior." (I was really bummed when they made you leave WoT.) Please refer me to specific games if the games I've alluded to are not representative of your general play.

@ Sajin -- The thought crossed my mind, but at that level I think the Mod would just randomize the setup. Self-consciously surrounding the vig with town players would be very naughty. It could happen, but I'm willing to bet against it. By contrast, surrounding ZA with the Godfather and town players at least makes sense in that it makes the Godfather's ability worthwhile. I wish I'd thought of that last night.

[/drunkpost]

[Iecerint]

Umm, not to criticize, but even if you're not crazy about my kill last night, surely knowing my role gives a pretty good indication that there's scum fairly near to me, right?

You are worng here dude....dont waste synopsis[...]

What do you mean by "synopsis" ?

[Iecerint]

Umm, not to criticize, but even if you're not crazy about my kill last night, surely knowing my role gives a pretty good indication that there's scum fairly near to me, right?

You are worng here dude....dont waste synopsis[...]

What do you mean by "synopsis" ?

OMG...sorry about that, it wasn't synopsis, but "synapse"

Uh, I'm not quite understanding the metaphor. Do you just mean that I should've waited to vig, or something else? If so, I'm not understanding the relation of that to what I was "wrong" about. Could you clarify?

[Iecerint]

Whether I was wrong to kill SB is a separate issue from whether the Mod put scum near me. Fair enough if you're not crazy about either of them as independent issues, though.

[Iecerint]

Whether I was wrong to kill SB

There is no "whether" about you killing SB, you were WRONG to kill SB.

You're missing my point. My point is that whether that was wrong (or "the fact that it was wrong," if you'd rather) doesn't affect the separate issue of whether the Mod would put scum near me (except inasmuch as one neighbor has been killed, so the likelihood is reduced slightly).

[Iecerint]

Since neighbors keep changing, we assume that positioning of scum very close to PRs is irrelevant.

The only time neighbors change is if they die, in which case neighbors' neighbors become neighbors. We've seen this happen already, and we had Mod confirmation of it before that.

It's not just positioning scum close to PRs. It's positioning roles so that they have a function. For example, putting the Godfather nowhere near a cop would essentially render him a goon. (I wish I'd thought of this point during N1, as it solves the problem of scum near ZA.) Putting the vig nowhere near mafia renders him a pure liability for town. This is different from putting a cop or doctor near only town -- their roles are still effective even if used on town players.

Y -- is there a reason you're singling out K7 instead of, say, the other lurkers?

[Iecerint]

ZA, I started the ZH wagon and steered us away from the Sajin/falko feud. I'm not scummy at all.

[Iecerint]

He's lurking and fails to answer questions after agreeing to do so. Furry also told me during the night that he suspects him because ZH was really concerned about the lurkers all the time.

I'll add to that the fact that Furry also pegged him as most likely to be scum.

It sounds like Furry was worried about the lurkers and singled-out K7. You've suggested that K7's lurking is especially problematic because his play has been even emptier. Did Furry also specify that reason, or did he just list K7 as an example of a problematic lurker?

[Iecerint]

ZA, I started the ZH wagon and steered us away from the Sajin/falko feud. I'm not scummy at all.

Just realized that this should've been directed at K7 rather than ZA.

I agree that K7 is not exactly a helpful player. It's less clear how well this predicts that K7 is scum. Lynching lurker town isn't the worst we could do, but something surer to go off of would be nice.

I think SSK said that he intentionally fakevoted ZA to pressure him, didn't he? Granted, that didn't make much sense as ZA only had one vote on him at the time IIRC.

Since Drake has OK'd it, I'll put up the Iec-Drake correspondence soon.

[Iecerint]

There wasn't really any reason to cover it up, though. You'd been one of the lurkier players and could've used some pressure. I agree that the "deliberately pretend vote" claim was odd, though.

[Iecerint]

Iec-Drake N1

What do you make of my other neighbor -- Ash/Super?

You've picked-up my PM, but have not responded. Why is that?

If you do not intend to communicate with me tonight, please justify your decision by tomorrow (Tuesday) night.

Hey Iecerint,

Is there some advantage to communicating things at night that we could talk about in thread? How do you see this benefiting the town?

To not be a dick: I think there's a pretty good case to be made that SuperBridge is scum: his initial list of suspects looks like scum fingering one of his own but voting someone harmless, and his play in regards to who he replaced is interesting to look at, too.

How do you feel about what Furry did yesterday? Are you more suspicious of the players that did help lynch ZeikHunter after his gambit or the players that didn't?

- Drake

If you're comparatively confident in the alignment of the players around you, night-talking lets you communicate suspicions without the mafia necessarily hearing them. You always run the risk of being mistaken, though.

What result do you think ZA would have gotten on ZH? That is, does the Godfather role also block Gunsmith results, or just conventional investigative roles?

When you say SuperBridge's role is interesting with regard to his having replaced Ash, what do you mean? Did you find Ash scummy?

Furry's first couple of posts rubbed me the wrong way. I think he bought into the Sajin thing too quickly. (Then again, this could just be because he thought I was scum in them.) He eventually got away from wallposts and all that, though, so my opinion of him started to change. And then there's his act with ZH toward the end....

Since there's no Daytalk, I think it's unlikely that ZH and Furry are scumbuddies who planned that. For one, Furry, as a replacement, couldn't have communicated his plans to ZH at any point. Also, I don't really think my case against ZH was that strong -- his posts were pretty lackluster and there weren't many of them, but that's all (granted, that deviated from his meta, unlike K7 and presumably Timeater). Since there were already two viable wagons, I'm inclined to think better of players on the wagon prior to Furry's show (you, Y, and Furry). But the wagon also built up pretty quickly as I recall, so there's also that to consider.

Then again, I must confess that I was a little suspicious of your post just after I asked you to contribute to help me make a decision today. It seemed to come REALLY close (maybe too close) to my own suspicions, except that you threw in something about halflight. It could have just been a coincidence.

I imagine ZA would have gotten a "no gun" result on ZH, but that's neither here nor there.

What interests me about SuperBridge's take on the early-day Sajin/MafiaSSK/falko love triangle is that he seems to take up Ash's position almost exactly, defending falko by attacking the other two. It's not something I often see from replacements, which makes me think that maybe SB (and Ash) had a vested interest in diverting attention from falko. Of course, it's also possible that SB was just trying to cast a wide net by implicating both Sajin and MafiaSSK, but then that's an issue in and of itself.

I also think it's terribly unlikely that Furry is scum: as a replacement, there's no way they set up that gambit pregame, so unless scum Furry thought ZH's play was beyond redemption as newbie scum then Furry is basically cleared from being scum in my mind. It's also a pretty ballsy thing to do as a third party, which is a bit WIFOMy, but I'm willing to categorize him as "town" for now.

I guess the lone issue with Furry's ploy is that it's unlikely that we'll be able to separate off the players who voted afterward, which is why I asked what you thought. There's no reason a scum player would want to stay off the wagon after their partner basically claimed scum, so the only division is basically "Whoever checked the thread first." On the other hand, both ZA and MafiaSSK made posts that look sort of like they're trying to draw special attention to Furry, which makes me think that maybe they were trying to warn ZH about what they'd sniffed out as the gambit. But again, it's tough to tell, and both did end up voting for ZH (and ZA's claim(/proximity?) makes it unlikely that he's scum anyway.

Speaking of which: Any thoughts on likely arrangements of scum? Have you been thinking that there's a pocket of scum or that they're divided evenly or that it's randomized? Or did Tarballs say... (runs to check).

Tarballs said in the queue that positions on Day 1 are likely to be set, though he never confirmed that he set them. Check Ash's iso for the information.

I asked about ZA's hypothetical "no gun" result on ZH because, given that positions are premeditated, that would mean that another scum is likely near ZA. Otherwise, ZA's role's only function would be to throw us off with a "no" result on ZH.

Assuming whomever's (I think it was Ash's) speculation that scum exists within 2 units on either side of ZA, that leaves Furry, Super (=Ash), and me. That pretty much leaves Super. Super's play in this game deviates a bit from his other game on the site where he was town -- in that game, it seemed like he was a pretty strong player after he replaced in -- but he also had long periods of silence in that game, so it may be too early to judge.

I hadn't realized how Ash's take on the Sajin/falko business was so similar to Super's. This may be because I pretty much agreed with Ash early on -- the most suspect player in that exchange was SSK IMO (but he's changed since then) -- and that Ash capitulated to a point I made when he started attacking falko later.

Superbridge asked me what I thought about ZA and Furry. What do you make of that?

Paranoid Drake thinks somebody is afraid of being gun-checked. Slightly more reasonable Drake thinks he's merely trying to get a sense of what you think of who might potentially be the two most confirmed players in the game.

zwets hasn't said anything to me yet, but I'm guilty of sending nothing his way either. Guess I should get on that.

Can you think of a reason why TownSuper would care about my view of ZA or Furry?

Just to say something, I suppose. It didn't even seem like he was all the interested in them during the day, though.

I guess if he's still suspicious of you he might be trying to get you to bite on the idea of casting suspicion on the two towniest players, but even that seems like a stretch.

It takes awhile for him to respond at all, and then he posits SB scum.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: I'd intended to remove the last line. I suppose it's true, though. Should add that positing SB scum could be nothing as Furry and I also found SB scummy.

[Iecerint]

zwet, you've commented that you believe my version of events, but you haven't to my recollection expressed an opinion of TIMEATER/Drake's play. Do you have one?

[Iecerint]

I <3 Sajin.

[Iecerint]

^ /drunkpost

I'm serious, though.

[Iecerint]

unvote, Vote: killa seven

I still think there's probably a 1/1 between zwet and Drake, but it's clearly going nowhere, whereas pressure on K7 might lead him to answer Sajin's questions and otherwise participate.

[Iecerint]

zwet, I'm not sure whether your comment was directed specifically at me, but I don't think we should policy lynch K7, either. Rather, I'm wondering whether pressuring in the form of votes is what he needs as motivation to participate.

The 5 players who aren't voting should vote for someone to advertise their suspicions. It might lead to good discussion.

I think K7 should be replaced,

assuming he literally does not intend to play the game.

[Iecerint]

Unvote, Vote: zwet

It's possible that was an accidental L-1, but seeing that it was just after a vote count, it's comparatively unlikely. Factor in that K7 has claimed to be looking into the issues mentioned and that zwet is both a) a lurker replacing a player who never voted Day 1 and b) less helpful than the typical player even if he's town, and it's a better vote. This isn't even considering that he's one of the two players I suspected due to set-up speculation.

[Iecerint]

O_o @ SSK

[Iecerint]

As far as I understand and as I believe you have already noted, you're not playing the way you usually play. I can only take your play at face value. At best, you are anti-town without even provoking useful discussion. At worst, you are scum.

Your comment implies that your play is the only reason I am voting for you. That is not the case. Your predecessor contributed

only

to the Sajin-falko situation, which I think is scummy because I think it's likely that Sajin and falko are both town. After that, she frequently expressed intentions to "reread" that rarely led to new developments. She never voted, ever. There's also your proximity to me, which slightly increases the prior probability that you are scum, as there's evidence the set-up is fixed. If there are no scum near me, then my ability existed only to hinder town. I could see this happening if we have disproportionately many town power roles (we've already seen several), but I nonetheless think it's only a remote possibility. These factors make you a better lynch than K7.

[Iecerint]

This is the case as I see it:

1. halflight actively participated only in the Sajin-falko discussion, which may well have been a town-town connection.
2. Thereafter, she tended to express intents to reread without evidence of having done so, until she was replaced.
3. She never voted, ever.
4. As I recall, she also made a couple references to "every lynch being vital," often as explanations for her intended rereads. (I may be wrong about the context here, but I remember these comments rubbing me the wrong way whenever they came up.)
5. zwet put a player at L-1 without commenting as much.
6. zwet attacked Sajin (+ Vote) for unvoting as a response to 5 even though Sajin's move was pro-town.
7. zwet is near me, so the prior probability that he is scum is increased. (Null if you don't believe the set-up is fixed.)
8. zwet is at best an anti-town player, so he is a minimally tragic mislynch.

[Iecerint]

Sajin mentioned earlier today that he suspected SSK. I don't think his vote for SSK is based only on the L-1 vote.

Unvote

in the interest of Sajin getting the information he wants. I'll probably put it back later.

[Iecerint]

Because I don't want K7 to weasel out of a promise to contribute. Like I said.

[Iecerint]

Please clarify your actual reason for voting Sajin, if you think that I don't understand them. Also, I don't think suspecting you for putting K7 at L-1 without mentioning as much constitutes a reasoning for a policy lynch. It's a scummy thing to do. At best, it is an embarrassing mistake, and you don't seem terribly apologetic, so I'm assuming it was done intentionally.

Do you think we should ignore your predecessor's play? Do you think it has been characterized unfairly?

[Iecerint]

zwet has ignored my question and the game has stagnated again. K7 doesn't appear too interested in answering Sajin's questions. I'm putting back my

Vote: zwet

. My prior points still apply, as do his weak answers. This is zwet we're talking about, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.

This puts zwet back at L-1.

[Iecerint]

^ Do you also have a meta of voting players who unvote to L-2 when players are sneaked to L-1? Do you also have a "meta" of replacing suspicious players?

[Iecerint]

My point is that those are aspects of this scenario that have nothing to do with your meta. I think your attempt to characterize this as purely a meta issue is either quite lazy or disingenuous.

[Iecerint]

Furry appeared town from what i read, super brigade only posted 3 times, likely a vig kill. (i just re read and ice claimed that kill as a vig kill, i still think it is was dumb)

Do you think the vig kill choice was dumb, the claim was dumb, or both?

[Iecerint]

Sajin, please make a case for SSK. As far as I can see:

1. He looks bad if we assume Sajin-falko is town-town.
2. He also appears to have caused the ZA claim by his "intentional" fakevote that still makes no sense.
3. Drake is suspicious of his "A Daykiller?" comment after Furry tried to trick ZH.
4. Today, you think he's joining the mislynch zwet wagon.

I've just checked for connections to ZH and don't get much of a link. They both jumped on Sajin-falko (so did halflight), though I think SSK and ultimately did a better job of contributing to the scumhunting. His only posts about ZH try to differentiate his play from ZH, which could be damage control, or it could just be an honest response to others' comments.

I think I prefer a zwet lynch atm. Criticisms about SSK's play also apply to halflight's play. However, I maybe could be persuaded to vote SSK if a better case can be made.

[Iecerint]

It sounds like you're positing that K7 and SSK may be the remaining scum because SSK voted zwet but not K7. That's possible, but I don't find it convincing due to personal indignation at hypothetically being 2-deep in town players on both sides. I am openly biased on this point.

Those who aren't voting should put a vote somewhere, unless their best suspect is zwet. Deadline is very soon. Publicize your reads.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: Unless all three non-voters gravitate to SSK or something, zwet should probably claim.

[Iecerint]

If you thought the kill was dumb, why did you assume that it was a vig kill?

[Iecerint]

We get slightly more information from an SSK lynch, but only on the basis of zwet being harder to read than SSK. Even if she never officially voted, halflight made plenty of interpretable positions Day 1.

I'm not sure how I feel about lynching people on the basis of "information," either. That strategy encourages players to lurk, which is anti-town. Moreover, that strategy would not have led to the ZH lynch yesterday; it probably would have led to Sajin.

[Iecerint]

zwet, please clarify the reasoning for your perspective.

I think it's possible that Sajin is scum, but ZH was fawning over him so much that I really want to call that buddying instead of a novice move. Then again, ZH's response to the fake daykill and his own admission that he's a new player to the site may suggest it's not out of the realm of possibility. He may also have thought his Godfather role would fix things for him.

[Iecerint]

I meant, why would you assume vig and not SK?

[Iecerint]

SSK and Y -- what do you think about Sajin's recent play?

[Iecerint]

Sajin, is what zwet is saying accurate? If so, why are you different this time? If not, why is zwet misrepresenting your play?

[Iecerint]

I think you're the best lynch, zwet. I think the criticisms that could be leveled at Sajin and SSK could mostly also be leveled at halflight, and you have the added bonus of being near me. But I'm ambivalent. I could be persuaded to lynch SSK. Granted, it's unlikely to happen in the next 12 hours, but....

Sajin wins some town points for coming out with the falko thing, which is a dumb apparent 1-1 if he's scum. SSK wins some town points for picking things up after the Sajin-falko thing fell onto the backburner, but he loses some for the weird interaction with ZA (not sure it was scummy, but it was certainly weird). halflight wins some town points for not jumping to too many conclusions, but she loses some extra ones for never really reaching any.

This thread needs more falko and more Drake.

[Iecerint]

Sajin, I agree that pushing a policy lynch is scummy; however, I disagree with your implicit assumption that lynching zwet is inherently a policy lynch. First, we have halflight's play to go on. Second, zwet's play has picked up enough to be interpretable. Third, we have set-up speculation. I'm not voting zwet because he's zwet; I'm voting zwet because I think he's likely scum.

Y, don't you think SSK followed Sajin a little blindly on Day 2? What do you think about his pressure on ZA? Your language ("got caught in the middle of some messes") implies that SSK is under scrutiny for circumstances beyond his control, but I don't think those circumstances were beyond his control.

[Iecerint]

Nonvoters -- put a vote somewhere.

Zwet, claim.

[Iecerint]

I agree with Y that K7 would be a policy lynch and zwet isn't. I agree with Sajin that it is possible that SSK is scum, but I don't think it's any better a case than zwet's. There certainly isn't time to shift everyone over there in the next few hours, either.

Sajin, I can think of some contexts where those kinds of PMs might make sense, but I'm not sure which context applies here. I haven't quite figured it out.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: My question to Y should have been "don't you think SSK followed Sajin a little blindly on Day 1."

[Iecerint]

Why didn't you show us this yesterday?

[Iecerint]

Furry emphasized that we should send all our PMs to both partners every day. He probably sent these messages both to you and to ZA (the wording -- stuff like "the three of us" -- also implies he did as much). Now we're left with the double-WIFOM of ZA being killed just when he would have confirmed you, but not before, and your sharing the PM when it can't be contested, but not before.

[Iecerint]

Drake did the same thing to me last night. He held off until the last moment. Could be a coincidence.

I can get behind an SSK lynch. Outside of the Drake-zwet dichotomy, I think a good case can be made for him. There's the added bonus that he was on zwet's wagon, but not K7's, which takes into account the Y-Furry perspective.

Vote: MafiaSSK

. This is L-2.

I'll kick myself if Drake ends up being scum.

[Iecerint]

I thought I'd answered this question before, but I just realized I hadn't. If you're scum, then you were just rolefishing. If you're town, I can think of some possibilities, but I'm not sure it would be pro-town to discuss them openly.

[Iecerint]

K7, you commented that ZH's death was good for town because we could try to figure out who he was connected to. Who do you think ZH was connected to?

[Iecerint]

SSK, do you think Sajin is scum, or do you think Sajin is wrong? If you think Sajin is wrong, who do you think is scum?

falko, you didn't vote yesterday. Why not? Also, who do you think is scum?

I should clarify that as a vig, I could only target one of my two neighbors. I just skimmed falko is iso and it seems like he thought I could've targeted anyone. I could only have targeted Drake or SB N1.

[Iecerint]

K7, please answer my question.

[Iecerint]

Also, Sajin, please confirm K7's claim or contest it.

[Iecerint]

Out of curiosity, how did his PM to you read? It seems like you didn't put forth much effort into answering him if you only sent him a question. (I'm assuming he included some kind of question in his initial PM.)

[Iecerint]

Your explanation suggests that you gave K7 little content because you believe him to be town, but falko has said that the PM you sent him also had very little content. Seeing that you did not limit your PM to falko because you believe him to be scum, why did you do so?

[Iecerint]

I think you're misunderstanding my question. You've said you believe falko to be town and that consequently you want to talk with him, right? But falko said this:

Falco this is the second night you did this to me. You reply only right before the thread opens so I can't talk. Sigh.

Well, don't expect a exciting reply from that meaningless post from you

As I read this, falko implies that the PM you sent him was not very substantial. If true, this doesn't make sense, because you want to talk to falko and so probably sent him a comparatively substantial PM. (Rereading, it's possible he was just referring to this post on your part, which would allow for a more substantial PM from you and remove my confusion. falko, feel free to clarify your statement.)

So, is falko just referring to your in-game post, or is he referring to your PM? If he is referring to your PM, why didn't you send him more content to address?

[Iecerint]

By "last" do you mean "prior" (N1's) or "most recent" (N2's)? You've said in thread that he sent you a response of some kind both nights, so I'm guessing you mean you want a more developed response.

Is your town read on falko based on ZH's having joined his wagon early on, or something else?

[Iecerint]

This thread needs scumhunting from Drake and falko.

[Iecerint]

Could you support the hypothetical Sajin-K7 scumpairing? That one seems comparatively remote to me.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: By which I mean "could you please provide evidence in support of the Sajin-K7 scumpairing."

[Iecerint]

I'm voting MafiaSSK, too. Or I should be voting him.

Oops, sorry, missed that.

[Iecerint]

I never like that case, the zwet I mean...

Then why did you post this:

can somebody rezume me the case against zwet. I think that it's becoming solid, but I don't get the point when the suspicios become in founded acussations

Also, please clarify/rephrase what you meant by that last sentence.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: For example, why didn't you place a vote for an alternate lynch, or provide information against the zwet wagon, or otherwise try to stop the zwet lynch?

[Iecerint]

Sajin focused a lot on K7 during Day 2. He voted him until zwet put him at L-1 without mentioning as much. He also criticized Drake's defense of K7.

Sajin, I'm not sure how your comments about falko mesh with this quote from D2:

I have either partially claimed to falko. I will also use a code so that I can full claim to him if need be (made up entirely within the game, mod - using letters from our PMs as the code)

It seemed like you've had some meaningful conversation with falko. Could you clarify the situation?

[Iecerint]

falko, please answer my question. Y, please weigh-in. Other non-voters, please also weigh-in.

[Iecerint]

I don't understand how it's scummy for Sajin to switch to zwet after what zwet did. That's null. If Sajin is scum (with K7), he did it to attack a scummy townie (and maybe save his partner in the process). If Sajin is town, he still did it to attack a scummy townie. So attacking zwet after he does something scummy doesn't look scummy to me.

Besides that, why aren't you voting one of K7 and Sajin?

[Iecerint]

I agree that an SSK lynch is optimal today. I don't think that SSK has come up with a very good case against anyone else; I'm inclined to believe that Sajin may be town. I'm also not impressed with SSK's proposed Sajin scumpartner (K7).

Nonvoters need to contribute. Of particular concern are falko (who needs a prod) and Drake (who originally said he'd be able to contribute yesterday).

[Iecerint]

Why do you think Sajin should have allowed NL?

[Iecerint]

I believe you're mistaken, Y. Sajin was the first person to vote for K7. He did so at first as a pressure vote to encourage K7 to answer his questions, but it became serious subsequently. It's true that you voted second and then elaborated more seriously on K7's behavior, but Sajin stuck with you through that. He didn't leave that wagon until zwet L-1'd him. Please correct me if you have a different interpretation of events.

[Iecerint]

Needs prods. Also, needs participation. Here's an easy template for participating since we are having some trouble:

1. Do you think SSK is scum? (Yes) (No) (Maybe)
2. Do you think Sajin is scum? (Yes) (No) (Maybe)
3. Do you think someone else is scum? Who? __________ (fill in) Why?

This is directed especially at players who are not Sajin, SSK, Y, or me.

Y, it seems like you're biased toward Sajin being scum rather than SSK being scum. (Do I have that right?) This isn't due to the arguments in Furry's post, since both of them are in his pool of possible scum. You've kinda said why you think Sajin is scummy, even if I'm not personally convinced. Why do you think SSK is town? PoE?

[Iecerint]

I imagine that was it. Y and I were two of the people on your wagon for most of D1.

[Iecerint]

Y, if Sajin is scum, who do you think is his scumpartner? (If you think it's K7 like SSK, could you make a stronger case for it?)

[Iecerint]

K7 is scummy, but you don't have a read on him, so you want to vote him? I mean, I can see where you're coming from, but... O_o

If the Sajin-K7 pairing is less likely, doesn't that make pairings that include SSK more likely? The only reason it wouldn't that I can see is if you think K7 is highly likely to be paired with someone who is not Sajin or SSK.

[Iecerint]

I hadn't noticed that Sajin didn't vote zwet right away. I'd remembered it as him voting zwet, then unvoting when he decided he thought zwet was town, and then voting only in the last hour to hammer. I see now that he didn't vote at first. I think it's pretty null, though -- if anything, it makes him less responsible for the zwet wagon than I'd thought he was.

SSK's reason for voting zwet to L-1 was just as absent as zwet's reason for voting K7 to L-1. Then again, SSK is not zwet.

[Iecerint]

Y, that last reads like you're accusing Sajin of hypocrisy, but I'm not sure I understand your position. As I understand events, Sajin de-L-1'd K7 in the first case because he had a vote that he could remove to de-L1 him, but he couldn't do so in the second case as he didn't have a vote on zwet. I don't see the inconsistency.

[Iecerint]

Oh, I see. I thought you were specifically saying he was hypocritical about keeping people at L-1 rather than voting for putting people at L-1. Thank you for straightening that out.

The only thing about Sajin is that ZH was really praising him aggressively D1. It would be really bad play to do that to your scumbuddy out of nowhere. [/WIFOM] Then again, ZH also claimed scum after a fake daykill. <_<

[Iecerint]

Hi myko.

[Iecerint]

He decided falko was town during N1, presumably because ZH was quick to join falko's wagon. There's a code in Sajin's PM to falko that indicates his role or something. That's probably why he doesn't want to post it. I can't blame him.

[Iecerint]

The information you asked for already exists in the thread. He alluded to it again as recently as post 817. I didn't have to look anything up to answer your question.

[Iecerint]

It looked to me like you were trying to pressure Sajin into releasing information that he has already indicated is sensitive information (as apparently his role can be determined from it). In that kind of circumstance, I think it's OK to intervene. I'll admit that I have a habit of stepping in to answer other players' questions, though, especially if the answer is obvious or I think the pressure is anti-town. I did the same thing D1 with falko, and it really irritated Sajin.

myko, SSK is a current wagon comprised of me and SSK. K7 is the alternate wagon. I'm not sure whether your two player choices were really 100% based on just your readthrough, but they're two of the lynches being mentioned. I think you'll convince yourself that I'm not scum when you read D2.

[Iecerint]

It's a vote where I think one of zwet and Drake is scum and I need them to contribute to get a better read on them.

[Iecerint]

I claimed because I thought one of my 2 neighbors or 2 neighbors' neighbors was likely scum, and 1 of them was dead and 1 was confirmed town. I thought claiming would give us a 50-50 on lynching scum from the remaining 2. This differs from normal games because the Mod said the set-up probably wouldn't be random and I can only target my neighbors. It's possible that the Mod set-up the game so that I'd almost certainly kill someone (as Sajin suggested), which is the case if Drake is town (possible given how quick he was to join my ZH wagon).

Of course I'm steering the town! I'd had privileged information about my role the entire game that'd been affecting how I saw scum.

There is nothing random about that vote. I identified two players who were likely scum and voted one of them. I did this because neither player had responded to my prior attempts to pressure without voting. The only "random" aspect is my ambivalence between the two, but I nonetheless justified selecting one for a vote, so even that isn't really random.

This is also a pretty lame criticism. I'm both "steering the town" and I'm "as random as you can get"? That makes no sense. I think you're town because ZH was quick to join falko's wagon, though.

[Iecerint]

I don't understand your criticism. I told everyone what I was thinking. The question was meant to be rhetorical.

I voted one suspect and FOS'd the other, and I listed the reasons for voting Drake over zwet in the very passage you quoted. I mentioned this in my previous post, but you appear to've ignored it. zwet later did other scummy things, which is why I listed extra scummy things later on D2.

[Iecerint]

Also from my prior post:

I claimed because I thought one of my 2 neighbors or 2 neighbors' neighbors was likely scum, and 1 of them was dead and 1 was confirmed town. I thought claiming would give us a 50-50 on lynching scum from the remaining 2. This differs from normal games because the Mod said the set-up probably wouldn't be random and I can only target my neighbors. It's possible that the Mod set-up the game so that I'd almost certainly kill someone (as Sajin suggested), which is the case if Drake is town (possible given how quick he was to join my ZH wagon).

If you're asking why I didn't wait longer in D2 to claim, it's because my initial attempts to pressure Drake and zwet to contribute were not very productive. I thought that claiming up-front to contextualize my interest in them would motivate them to contribute.

[Iecerint]

Care to place a vote or otherwise comment on wagons, K7?

[Iecerint]

I've answered all of myko's questions. If you think I've not answered one, please pick it out for me.

[Iecerint]

I answered that in my last long post. If that answer doesn't satisfy you, please clarify why it does not.

[Iecerint]

myko, it looks to me like you asked me a question, I answered it, and then you kept asking the same question in an attempt to make it appear that I had been evasive or ignored your question. Either you're doing this for purely rhetorical reasons (i.e. you think I'm anti-town and want me to look bad), or you're missing my answer/I'm missing your question. If it's the latter, please highlight what I haven't answered so that I can answer it; I don't believe I've ignored anything. If it's the former, please ask questions such that my answers influence your read.

SSK, you pretty much agreed with Sajin's case against falko early on, or that's how I remember it. If you go back, you'll notice that several of us even ask you why you went along with Sajin's case rather than trying to evaluate it first once it became clear that Sajin's case alone wasn't going to lead to a falko lynch.