/in-vitational 2 - Chosen, Karaoke - Game over! before 830

[Nikanor]

What do you plan to do if we get a week into the game and one player no has done anything helpful so far as participation goes? What if there be more than one player in that category?

I'd like to jump that hurdle if/when we get to it.

Based on your role what do you think your chances of being the chosen are and why? For Troll the answer be about 1/6. Troll will give reasons after all have answered.

In the likely occasion that I was not the scum's veto target, my chances of being Chosen is 1/3.

What thoughts do any have about how we can use the setup to our advantage?

Since scum know the Chosen can only be lynched, we should keep an eye open for scummy tunnelling on one or two people.

Vote: Cojin

I think he's the most likely to make a scumslip under pressure.

[Nikanor]

Has no one done anything thus far that makes them scummier than cojin is just by default?

Here are my thoughts so far:
I think Sajin is town. His 'scumslip' means nothing to me, because as I was reading the thread I was thinking to myself, 'Wot? How is that a scumslip?' I made the same mistake as Sajin in assuming the Chosen would be given pms to let them know who they are, so I don't see it as a scumslip.
Further, when he responds to Troll's second question with an accusation to rolefishing, he demonstrates lack of knowledge that scum know who the Chosen are already. This makes me think of him as town.
If we are to point out people who have an obvious lack of knowledge of a town pm, it would be this guy:

Avoiding a lynch may prevent us from hitting one of the chosen but, it also keeps us from getting the Scummies.

We can't win with them alive.

We CAN win with the scum alive, so long as we don't lynch either of the chosen. The fact that you forget about one of town's win conditions is disconcerting.

Vote: MiteyMouse

Papa Zito's votehopping is duely noted. The fact that he only takes time to answer Zorblag's questions AFTER both bandwagons have gone cold amplifies the scumminess of his bandwagon-jumping, and makes me want to

FoS: Papa Zito

[Nikanor]

@nikanor:you say I am most likely to scumslip under pressure, why is that?

I've only ever played with you and qwints. In the game I played with you where you were scum, your play was suboptimal. So from my point of view, you were the best target for a randomvote.

[Nikanor]

Please elaborate on why qwintz was not the better choice.

We're getting into the territory of out-of-thread conversation. Let's just say that while you were both scum, he was lynched day two, you were lynched day one.

[Nikanor]

They are both in progress, which is why I don't want to talk about them any more.

[Nikanor]

EBWOP: If you want, I can provide links, but that is all I can/will do.

[Nikanor]

So, which is more likely?
Town false-claiming chosen believing chosen got a p.m.
or
Scum false-claiming chosen.

Don't start with this again. He never claimed. In fact, he said he WASN'T chosen, because he didn't get a pm. I think you know Sajin is chosen, but forget that townies do not know their chosenness.

Unvote. Vote: qwints

Any townie claiming chosen ruins town's chances of a win.

Explain please.

[Nikanor]

I got the (Townie) role PM before I

possibly

got another PM saying I was chosen.

[Nikanor]

It does make me wonder why he did not explicitly claim VT instead of leaving it hanging if what he believed were true.

I think it's pretty obvious, but I'll let Sajin address this properly first.

[Nikanor]

he quite clearly seems to have inside information since he's so damned sure that Sajin is town.

I believe you can at least count Troll and myself in that category as well.

PZ says he hates people who are slow to vote, yet he's chainsaw defending sajin, and calling myself and qwints scummy for trying to pressure him.

Wot? How are these two points connected at all?

[Nikanor]

You REALLY can't see how calling someone out for voting person X while calling everyone else for not voting is scummy?

Your reasons for voting Sajin are invalid, so he is in the right for calling you on it.
As for the not voting thing, I can't really say I agree with it. We should all be more careful with our votes in this setup, since lynches matter a lot more than they would in a normal game.

[Nikanor]

I'm starting to think you and PZ are scummier than sajin.

Explain your vote properly, please.

[Nikanor]

This is exactly why I don't like leading with a vote to the rest of you. People ignore you and your only recourse is a vote. If you lead with it, you have no recourse besides jumping up and down and making a lot of noise for no benefit.

Scum points for overdefending.

[Nikanor]

Scien: It seemed to me you were defending yourself from Papa Zito's comment about people not voting.

[Nikanor]

Cojin, what are your thoughts on the players so far? A top two scumlist with reasoning would be nice.

[Nikanor]

Are you serious Cojin? Have you even read the thread at all? If you want a more specific question, what do you think of Sajin's alignment at this point?

[Nikanor]

Nice jump there, qwints. Can we still expect that analysis today?

[Nikanor]

qwints, please explain why you believe being defended is a town tell. As it stands now, I think you're making things up with no real reasoning behind what you say. Please, show some effort and prove me wrong.

[Nikanor]

Nikanor, what do you think of Cojin?

I agree with your point on him about the contradiction. I'm looking forward to his retort.
Aside from that, Cojin has been positively useless. I don't like his, 'I have nothing to say' attitude.

Back to you, qwints. Why do you refuse to talk about why you think defending someone is a town tell? Explain yourself. I promise I won't get into a theory discussion.
If you want to know WHY I'm pushing this point, it's because you're pushing a point that could very easily be used by scum to produce 'town-tells' on one another, citing that as an explaination.

[Nikanor]

A thing to note about lurker-Cojin: He wasn't like this at all in the last game I was in with him. He posted quite a bit more than this, which may have contributed to his lynch as scum. Maybe he's trying something different this game? /WIFOM

A note about lurkers in general, however hypocritical it may be: In a game where scum can day-talk, there is less incentive for scum to post in-thread, since they can just spend the day talking to their partner instead. The biggest offender of this has been Cojin, who only posts when prompted.

At the moment, I feel that qwints has diminished in scumminess enough to warrant an unvote.
Cojin, however, has done nothing to assuage my suspicions against him. In fact, his lurking has only served to inflame my scumsensors.

Unvote. Vote: Cojin.

Going to look into a couple things and post back in a jiffy.

P.S. Troll is right about math, obv.

[Nikanor]

My search turned up fruitless. I was looking to see if anyone had blatantly said the second town win condition before MiteyMouse 'forgot' about it. I found some hints at it, but nothing too obvious.
That's not to say I don't think it is scummy. I find it quite difficult to believe someone would not read their win conditions before playing the game. I've got her listed as my number two suspect right now, but that can change if she acts more scumlike or if Cojin steps up his act.

[Nikanor]

The major issue with Mitey is that this isn't the first time she's played this style of game.

If that's true, then her mistake is actually a scumslip, and a pretty bad one at that.

Unvote. Vote: MiteyMouse

Cojin, you are still on my scumlist for lurking. Improve, or feel the wrath of my vote (again).

[Nikanor]

A pressure vote means nothing if you say you're going to lynch someone else anyway.

[Nikanor]

Sorry PZ, I think I misunderstood this:

We already have Mitey dead to rights.

[Nikanor]

Sorry about that, I've been completely unmotivated to read through this thread lately. I'll do so tonight, though. (Or tomorrow. Quite possibly tomorrow).

[Nikanor]

Caught up.
I'm fine with lynching either Cojin or MM, but I'm also looking at Sajin or hohum as a plausible lynch for today. The way Sajin is going on about a false dilemma between himself and hohum, I'm starting to think the Sajin/hohum tunnel war could actually be a scum gambit. If we lynch either one, the other would look partially cleared as chosen, giving them an excuse to not be killed overnight as a partially cleared townie.
Either that, or one is scum and the other is chosen, giving us probscum on day two. I find it very hard to believe that both of them are town, considering how long and hard they have been tunnelling on one another.
This is just a hypothesis, and I am simply throwing it out there as a possibility. Take it as you will.

[Nikanor]

How have I been tunneling hohum as much as he has been of me?

Not as much, but you still have been tunnelling.
I find it interesting that that is all you have to say about my theory.

[Nikanor]

I will say this though, its hypocritical to have that viewpoint and not be voting either me or hohum.

Not really. It's more of a theory than anything else. That does not mean either of you are my favourite lynch for today.
I just found it odd that out of all the things you could have said about my theory, you chose to say 'I can't possibly be tunnelling as much as hohum.'

[Nikanor]

Wow. OMGUS much?

Answer the other question of you.

What question? Do you mean:

Since I think your vote should be on one of us, what motivation would I have to get you off my case?

I'm not on your case. I proposed a theory. This theory would only ever be useful if you or hohum flipped scum. I said I was just 'throwing it out there' and to 'take it as you will'. Never in that post did I make an accusation against either of you that wasn't plain fact. The way you are reacting to it is making me want to test out this theory more and more, however.

[Nikanor]

What? So you want me to lynch you? Is that what you are saying?

[Nikanor]

I'm happy where I am (unless everyone else feels like lynching hohum/Sajin).

[Nikanor]

Sajin seems almost so presistant on a hohum lynch that my belife is hohum is chosen and sajin may be scum.

What about the other way around? hohum has been tunnelling on Sajin this whole game.
Sajin has recently moved his vote to Nikanor. Have you anything to say about this?

[Nikanor]

Nikanor's here, don't prod him.
He'll be reading up and posting thoughts tonight.

[Nikanor]

This page would make Mastin proud. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to respond to in this mess, especially since Scien has apparently come to his senses. If someone wants me to respond to something in particular please point it out.

Yeah, death by wall of text.
I'm not even halfway through. I keep getting distracted. I fear I will not have a (good) post out tonight as promised.

Nikanor, who's scum?

Well I dunno, lemme get my magic 8-ball.
Seriously though, I'll answer this when I manage to finish catching up.

[Nikanor]

Sorry folks, I've been busy.
Nikanor will ignore the wall exchange between Scien and Troll (for now) so that he can post his immediate opinions.
Those immediate opinions will have to wait until tomorrow, unfortunately.

@Mod: If I don't post within twenty-four hours, please replace me.

[Nikanor]

As for Nikanor, Troll sees that him gave a very similar message to the other games him was in to the one him gave here. Troll no can go into specifics as that would be talking about ongoing games but something that stands out for this game that Troll no saw anywhere else was the request to be replaced if him no posted in the next 24 hours.

That was because I am getting overloaded in my games at the moment, and while I'd like for this to be a replacementless game, if I can't manage to get through the thread, I should let someone else take over.
No worries now, however, as this has been bumped into my list of priority games.

After his vote was on MiteyMouse the second time him started to pick up on the Sajin/hohum conflict. That this no came until two days before the end of the day be surprising given that it was going on the entire time.

Yeah, I just threw that theory out there one day after thinking about this game at work. I realised the possiblity, and since I don't write notes, I posted it in-thread before I forgot.

Him seemed to be perfectly willing to let Sajin lead him into a vote and went so far as to say that him was happy with his vote unless there was interest in Sajin or hohum with no mention of Cojin.

I didn't think the Cojin case was very good. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the case against him was basically that he was lurking. I have a history of lurking as both scum and town, so I don't really consider it much of a tell either way. Which brings me to your next point:

Him got prodded once during day one and Troll called for another prod later. Him responded immediately which be evidence that him was following the thread to some degree even though him no was posting. If anyone in this game be active lurking it be Nikanor or hohum but hohum has a more coherent story for his reasons.

Yes, I was actively lurking, but I have a history for active lurking as town. I can provide links to specific posts that support this if you desire.

My next post will be of an offensive nature.

[Nikanor]

Quite frankly you're at the top of my suspect list right now. I've taken some time to meditate about this game and so far you above anyone else have been the most vocal against lynching Sajin. I believe you're doing this because you know that Sajin isn't scum and that's why it's so easy for you to overlook the multitude of mistakes he's made throughout the game.

What a bad reason to put Troll at the top of your suspect list. WIFOM, the lot of it.
I think Troll has been fairly pro-town so far. However, the night-kill choice was a strange one. Why qwints over Scien or Troll, who were considered more pro-town (by me, at least)? WIFOM, especially since either (or both) could be chosen, so I'm not going to push it.
@hohum:
Your reason for suspecting Troll is WIFOM.
I greatly doubt you are chosen, so even though using WIFOM in itself is not that scummy, I believe you are the best lynch.

Vote: hohum.

[Nikanor]

I thought I had addressed all the points he made against me. Please point me in the right direction if you feel I have inadequately answered or if I have failed to answer any of his points.

[Nikanor]

Troll wonders if you outlined the bulk of your case against hohum with that last post or if there be more?

Well, there's not that much else to go on.
He spent most of Day one tunnelling on Sajin, insisting that what most of us thought was a towntell was actually a scumtell.
He also hammered Cojin with no explaination at all, stating that he's given up, that he doesn't care anymore.
Here's the quote, for reference:

Unvote, Vote Cojin
you can lynch me for this tomorrow, I don't care anymore.

[Nikanor]

MiteyMouse, who do you think is the best candidate for a lynch all lurkers strategy, if we choose to enact it?

[Nikanor]

I would've vetoed Scien or hohum, just because of their join dates. (Shrugs) I haven't played with anyone here (other than the corpses), so I don't really have much meta to go on for such things.
Remind me to say something else about this once everyone has said something on the matter.

[Nikanor]

Nik. I have the least read on you, and have no history to help out either. What is your current view of the game, taking into account last night and late yesterday.

I'm planning on reading Cojin's play on day one (his 'suspicions', etc.) to see if I can find anything in there. If that doesn't check out, I'll have to read the end of yesterday to look at the hohum wagon.

@MiteyMouse: Are you going to follow up on the veto question you asked yesterday? Otherwise, it just looks like scum trying to glean town reads for the upcoming night.

[Nikanor]

I'm planning on reading Cojin's play on day one (his 'suspicions', etc.) to see if I can find anything in there. If that doesn't check out, I'll have to read the end of yesterday to look at the hohum wagon.

EBWOP: I'm planning on doing both, of course, but what Cojin has said will be more conclusive than the hohum wagon, I think.

[Nikanor]

What I found from investigating Cojin's play:

FOS:PZ I Really Really dont like how you said she would be here tommorow, givin that scum to day talk I am going to make the assumption that pz knows that MM will post tommorow due to PM conversation.

This seems forced. This is Cojin's post 9. One thing to be noted is that Cojin likes FoSing his scumpartners to distance. He's done it in another game I was in with him as well.
The way he hops on MiteyMouse's bandwagon is scummy, and I'd say it makes her probably chosen.

About the wagon analysis of day two:
I find Scien likely to be town based on the lack of his presence on the hohum lurkerwagon. I think that scum was on the hohum wagon, which really doesn't narrow anything down by much, but since I think MiteyMouse is chosen, I'd say that either Papa Zito or Zorblag is scum.
The whole thing with Papa Zito being the first to vote Cojin being a towntell seems a bit overrated to me. Seeing how much Cojin undervalued himself makes me think he may have told Papa Zito to bus him indescriminately. I also see that Cojin has stopped playing on Mafiascum.net entirely, so he may have told Papa Zito to bus him in a suicide attempt.

@Zorblag: You said earlier that you think both you and Scien are unlikely to be chosen. Do you still think this? We have a chance to win by lynching two townies in a row. If you still believe both of you are townies, do you think we have a good chance of winning by chainlynching you and Scien?

[Nikanor]

Sorry folks, I've been busy lately. I'll post later tonight or tomorrow morning.

[Nikanor]

To answer Scien's question:

Why talk about how strong the case was? Did it matter? We hit scum... what was the motive for telling everyone it was for bad reasoning? I would actually like an answer for that question from Nik.

Why are you leaving out the question I'm answering in that quote?

Him seemed to be perfectly willing to let Sajin lead him into a vote and went so far as to say that him was happy with his vote unless there was interest in Sajin or hohum with no mention of Cojin.

I didn't think the Cojin case was very good. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the case against him was basically that he was lurking. I have a history of lurking as both scum and town, so I don't really consider it much of a tell either way.

My reason for saying that was that I was answering a question from Troll.

@Scien: You say the last scum should be feeling the pressure to lynch a chosen right now. What do you think of the speed with which my wagon has built? What will you make of it if I flip chosen? What about if I flip townie?

[Nikanor]

Also while I am thinking about it... if there was a plan, it doesn't mesh with what you are thinking about PapaZ. If they where intentionally going to sacrifice Cojin, why concoct a plan to save him? What's your thoughts on the Cojin plan? I take it you don't think there was one...

I think Cojin would be intelligent and sneaky enough to try something like that for himself. I doubt anyone told him to do it. That kind of thing is more spur of the moment; it's not easily planned.

What are your thoughts on these points, and why do you believe I am mistaken in my current thought process? I am willing to toss a vote to you soon, but would like more before I do so.

Well, I think Cojin could have come up with it on his own, but assuming he didn't, I would say this about the players:
1) Papa Zito: If he were Cojin's buddy, I doubt he would come up with such a thing. If he wanted to bus Cojin into oblivion, I can't see any reason for him to make up something like that to make Cojin appear more town. (As I'm writing this, I see that the Cojin suicide theory doesn't work here, either. Cojin wouldn't feign a mistake if he were trying to commit suicide, unless he were Zorblag's partner [see below]).
2) Zorblag: The fact that he almost immediately pointed out the mistake as a fabrication means nothing to me. I would have done the same as scum. I think that if Zorblag is scum, and he made up the mistake plan, he would have some very good reasons for pointing out the mistake immediately. For one, he would gain town brownie points for calling out something that would inevitably be called out, avoiding suspicion for nearly the entire game. Secondly, he would be able to sew confusion among the town by accusing the wafflers (namely Scien and I) of waffling, futher avoiding suspicion and setting up possible future lynches. I believe that as scum, Zorblag had at least a couple reasons to point out Cojin's 'mistake,' so clearing him for that is a bad idea.
3) MiteyMouse: As far as I know, she could have made up the mistake. However, many people seem to be discounting her based on her meta, so I shall do the same.
4) Scien: Your waffling at the end of day one can as easily be confused town as it could be flip-flopping scum. I consider it a nulltell.

[Nikanor]

Wow...ot much happened while I was gone. I would be all for a Nik lynch right now and would drop the hammer but, I want to get as much as we can out of today.

So are you going to actually try to get something out of the day, or are you just going to say you'd like something more out of today, then continue lurking?
Scummy.

[Nikanor]

So Nikanor, who is your top suspect and why aren't you voting him/her?

I'm not sure yet. I'm wondering where Zorblag is at the moment, though.
MiteyMouse is still lurking, as usual.

My post in which I propose situations for Cojin's mistake has little to do with my suspicions. I think Cojin made the mistake for himself; that post was answering your question based on the assumption I thought Cojin wasn't intelligent enough to make the mistake himself.

[Nikanor]

Well, the things you questioned me about are on a hypothetical situation which I don't believe happened. I think that Cojin could have easily made the mistake himself, and I have no idea why you all are putting so much stock into this notion.
So really, I see no point in answering your questions. I'm still trying to decide who the last scum is. It depends on what I flip, honestly. I'm going to do a reread to decide.

[Nikanor]

I am asking you to explain to me some of the things that you said about what you believe.

No, I meant that I wrote that post even though it didn't follow what I believe. That post was about possibilities regarding the Cojin 'mistake'. Since none of those possibilities are ones I truely think to be the case, I can't really answer questions about them. Does that make more sense?
Also, those things that I said are not indicative of my opinion of that person on a whole. In order to provide that opinion for you, I must finish a reread.

[Nikanor]

Hooray, we win!
I'm sorry that I kinda fell apart right before my lynch, but I'm glad I was vanilla town! I think we would have lost if I had flipped chosen.
Great playing with you all, and thanks Incognito for the great flavour! Although, I do believe my death was a bit lacking in its originality.

[Nikanor]

Should I nominate this setup to be used in the Open game list?