/in-vitational 2 - Chosen, Karaoke - Game over! before 830

[Papa Zito]

vote: Sajin

That was easy.

[Papa Zito]

unvote

I'm inclined to think Sajin is town based on the rule edits.

[Papa Zito]

Don't think that papa zito. I would of done the same thing as scum. All it proves is that I was confused at one point. That said I appreciate the unvote.

Nah, scum are given the names of the Chosen, so there'd be no confusion there.

The fact that hohum is continuing to blindly pursue this, however...

vote: hohum

[Papa Zito]

-What do you plan to do if we get a week into the game and one player no has done anything helpful so far as participation goes? What if there be more than one player in that category?

My vote will be on the scummiest person I see, but I will switch to ensure a lynch if I'm forced to.

-Based on your role what do you think your chances of being the chosen are and why? For Troll the answer be about 1/6. Troll will give reasons after all have answered.

I'm not that hot at math. I'd say I'm 33% likely.

-What thoughts do any have about how we can use the setup to our advantage?

We've had this conversation before, and my opinion is unchanged. My opinion is to treat this as a normal game and ignore the Chosen mechanic, especially since the Chosen is much weaker in this setup.

[Papa Zito]

I missed his questions and responded when they were reposted.

[Papa Zito]

Sure is quiet around here.

Not voting (4) <-~ Cojin, qwints, Scien, Zorblag

This is bad.

[Papa Zito]

That was certainly worth waiting for.

unvote: hohum
vote: qwints

[Papa Zito]

I still intend to comment at some point this evening. I just wanted to pop in and say sajin needs to be lynched.

Why?

[Papa Zito]

also, has anyone noticed how papa zito has been basically chainsaw-defending sajin? What's wrong with a little pressure? You sure are quick to tear down potentially useful wagons.

Holy crap I'm amazing. I single-handedly tore down an non-existent wagon by asking why!

I'll admit, I

have

been eating my spinach lately.

Qwints or hohum, it's hard to decide. Hohum, your tunneling on this non-issue is extremely scummy. Qwints was trying to re-enact Sajin's misstep in order to get the same reaction, which is also extremely scummy.

Choices, choices.

[Papa Zito]

Lawl.

1. Prove I attempted to tear down his wagon.
2. If I tore it down why are you still pursuing it?
3. Why are you pursuing a wagon on a player that's very very likely town?

It's a Very Blustery Day today.

[Papa Zito]

Sure is quiet around here.

Incognito wrote:
Not voting (4) <-~ Cojin, qwints, Scien, Zorblag

This is bad.

How so? it would seem to me only scum would want everyone voting, and to have everyone voting quickly.

Sorry Cojin, missed this.

I dislike when people are very slow to vote. It smells like scum waiting for a bandwagon to hop on. Also it hurts vote analysis later.

[Papa Zito]

Uh oh. Scien, Nikanor and Sajin are all chainsaw-defensing me. And Troll to an extent. 5 scum, game over we win.

OR hohum is scum and Sajin is one of the Chosen, amirite?

You REALLY can't see how calling someone out for voting person X while calling everyone else for not voting is scummy?

Why aren't you voting me, hohum?

[Papa Zito]

So much love in this thread.

I'm looking forward to qwint's Sajin analysis.

Cojin, scumlist please.

[Papa Zito]

I totally agree with you on PapaZ though. I find the quietness

very

odd.

Sup.

I'm having a hard time finding an anchor in this game. I think it's all the noise. Ask me a question or something if you're worried about me.

[Papa Zito]

BTW, I read hohum's link, and here's what I got out of it.

1. hohum is an alt. lulz
2. hohum is an ass in every game he's in.
3. hohum is overstating the events a bit. The BloodCovenent wagon actually built without his presence and he rejoined it later, so saying BC was caught using Sandpaper Tactics isn't entirely true. The absolutely single-minded push to get BC/replacement lynched was true, tho.

I think it's a good thing I'm dead in 817. XD

It would be hard for scum to stand their ground when the likes of PZ, Scien and Nikanor are all playing this game like children who have just been told to go to bed early.

That's it, I'm telling.

[Papa Zito]

Woohoo! It's like a quiz. My favorite color is blue. In England, my favourite colour is blue.

Papa, here's a start:

1) What did you think of the 'being defended may be a town tell' argument?
2) Was Cojin's contradiction significant or not?
3) Is MM active lurking?
4) Is hohum playing to his meta?
5) Is scien correct that anti-town = scummy?

1. Sorry, gotta ask a clarification question... are you asking me if it's a tell, or about the argument itself?
2. I think it's only significant because he's said so little. I think his lurking is more significant.
3. I don't think so, not really. While we're here, let me warn you lot: MiteyMouse is insanely hard to read. Also, fun fact: she lists me as a top suspect in every single game we play.
4. That link is the only game I've seen him in as a player. His behavior here is consistent with that, yes. However, by his own admission he plays the same regardless of role.
5. No, he's not.

[Papa Zito]

I'm asking about the argument itself.

Arrite, here's my take.

Avoiding questions is, in my opinion, a scum-tell. There are cases where a player may avoid a question to produce pressure (voting without reasons) but this didn't seem to be one of them. Instead it seemed as if you were deliberately withholding information from the town. I felt the questioning was appropriate, and that if you didn't want to be questioned on the point then it shouldn't have been mentioned in the thread to begin with.

Side-note: I'm loving the current pace of the game.

[Papa Zito]

So...go find it!

???

[Papa Zito]

Sorry Papa...that was to Hohum.

I know it was to Hohum.

I'm just not sure why you're sending him off on a treasure hunt.

[Papa Zito]

Holy hell. hohum, you're drowning the game.

[Papa Zito]

I can't help it here everyone would rather argue with me than talk to me.

Now you're the victim?

Argh, okay, let's start over.

You'll have to forgive me for leaving Road to Rome too fast, but I've gotten lost in the sandstorm and need to get my bearings again. Can you please post a clear, concise case (alliteration!) in a single post for me?

[Papa Zito]

I'll gladly put together a PBPA, because YOU requested it (not because sajin requested it).

The only thing is, you need to stop with the bullshit PZ. You got done telling me not even a full page ago how noisy I am and now you WANT me to continue posting.

I'm requesting content, not noise. i.e. "Sajin is obvscum because of X, Y, Z" not "u guyz r tardz"

[Papa Zito]

Not only that he continues to this page to cast suspicion doubt on anyone who has anything even remotely negative to say about Sajin.

I'm asking for a case and you continue to rant about this. Silly old bear.

[Papa Zito]

Avatar changes make me dizzy.

[Papa Zito]

I'm waiting for PZ to respond, but MM just went off the cliff.

I'm actually waiting for Sajin to respond, which I see he just did.

I'm working on another game at the moment, I'll return here in a bit.

[Papa Zito]

Okay hohum, so I've reviewed everything and it looks like the meat of your case is based on the assumption that Sajin couldn't have the townie role PM since the scum PM didn't mention that the Chosen didn't know that they're Chosen. (whew) My issue here is the fact that this is an open setup, meaning the scum have full access to our townie PMs. To me, it makes it much more likely that Sajin misunderstood vs. never saw the information posted.

Reviewing your other points (OMGUS, random lynching) don't jive at all with what I see posted. Sajin gives reasoning for his countervote, which means it's not OMGUS, and I don't see where he advocated random lynches. So I'm not buying these points either.

One last point.

We had a perfect opportunity there. There was a misconception about the rules. I made the same one.

Here Scien admits that he had the same confusion over the Chosen mechanic as Sajin alleges he had. However, this admission goes by without any comment while you continue to slam Sajin over the same thing over and over. Why?

unvote

[Papa Zito]

Why the unvote Papa Zito? Troll no sees any indication that there be a change in your opinion about qwints.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

The qwints wagon isn't going anywhere.

[Papa Zito]

PZ, please explain how my wagon stalling makes me more likely to be chosen or less likely to be scum. Otherwise your unvote seems extremely scummy to me.

Your wagon stalling means it's not going to be informational, so my vote is better used elsewhere. I'm trying to decide where that elsewhere is. There's no use parking my vote on you while I decide.

[Papa Zito]

"Parking" your vote on me has several obvious uses (takes some pressure off me, somewhat increases the pressure on hohum, etc.).

That doesn't make any sense. Unvoting you takes pressure off of you, and unvoting you puts pressure on hohum, because he doesn't know if I'm going to vote him next. You're assuming that hohum is where I'm going though.

[Papa Zito]

Short version: This:

There's no use parking my vote on you while I decide.

is false. You should have an actual reason for unvoting.

That's my reason. Your reaction is interesting.

[Papa Zito]

I don't buy the "I did it to get a reaction" line. The unvote was at the bottom of a post which didn't even state who you were unvoting. I probably wouldn't have noticed if Zorblag hadn't called you out on it.

I didn't say I did it to get a reaction. I said I did it because it was useless there.

Your reaction is still interesting.

@Papa Zito, qwints has reacted to your reasons for your unvote more strongly than Troll will but Troll wonders why you no mentioned your what you were thinking when you unvoted. Apparently you be using your vote for information to at least some degree so Troll would like to know who you think you can get more information from by voting.

I didn't realize the earth-shattering importance my vote would have to qwints or I would have.

To your second point, as I said, that's what I've been trying to figure out. And I think I need to go here.

vote: Cojin

[Papa Zito]

My search turned up fruitless. I was looking to see if anyone had blatantly said the second town win condition before MiteyMouse 'forgot' about it. I found some hints at it, but nothing too obvious.
That's not to say I don't think it is scummy. I find it quite difficult to believe someone would not read their win conditions before playing the game. I've got her listed as my number two suspect right now, but that can change if she acts more scumlike or if Cojin steps up his act.

The major issue with Mitey is that this isn't the first time she's played this style of game.

Troll, your vote on Cojin would be quite welcome.

[Papa Zito]

Sigh. Nobody's cooperating.

We already have Mitey dead to rights. Can we please pressure someone else to generate some more info before this day ends? TIA.

[Papa Zito]

A pressure vote means nothing if you say you're going to lynch someone else anyway.

I never said we couldn't lynch Cojin today. Mitey will still be there tomorrow.

[Papa Zito]

No worries Nikanor.

Mitey will still be there tomorrow.

How do you know Mitey will be here tomorrow?

If she's scum like I think she is, she'll be here tomorrow.

[Papa Zito]

So Papa..if you believe that I'm Scum, why are you not voting for me?

I'm trying to find your partner.

hohum, stop tunneling plz. There are other people in this game.

[Papa Zito]

FOS:PZ

I Really Really dont like how you said she would be here tommorow, givin that scum to day talk I am going to make the assumption that pz knows that MM will post tommorow due to PM conversation.

Meanwhile with MM I cant let the slip slide as a brain fart, and as far as unlikly choosen/most likely to be scum im going to have to go with MM.

Vote Miteymouse

Am I the only one who found this post funny?

[Papa Zito]

Sajin's case isn't very good, I agree. But we're not lynching him today.

[Papa Zito]

Like he said, it's all playstyle stuff.

Except not answering questions. What questions did he avoid?

Yes Mitey, we must comply. We are Borg.

[Papa Zito]

@Papa Zito: Troll agrees that Cojin's vote feels a bit funny. Having said that, Papa Zito's stance towards MiteyMouse being clearly scum because of her slip but not wanting to lynch her today makes Troll at least as uncomfortable. Troll will wait to see what happens here before drawing conclusions.

We can lynch her today, or not. I think she's clearly scum so I'm more interested in using our remaining time to find her partner. If we can't then sure, she can be lynched today.

@everyone: Troll actually finds the "Papa Zito just showed he knows what will happen to MiteyMouse tomorrow!" take to be a bit silly. The implication was clearly that if MiteyMouse be scum she would be about to lynch on future days if we didn't today. If she did get night killed then we no would have to worry about her anyhow. If people want to assume that Papa Zito would only make a statement if him was sure it was true that be fine but it seems to Troll to be a quick way to express something that should be fairly evident while not belaboring the largely irrelevant cases.

Yes, this, which is why I haven't bothered to address it.

[Papa Zito]

You claimed motive doesn't mesh with your action. There has to be either another, or additional motive to why you didn't have a better target at the time of vote removal.

I'm voting Cojin, Scien. You're welcome to join us.

[Papa Zito]

You claimed motive doesn't mesh with your action. There has to be either another, or additional motive to why you didn't have a better target at the time of vote removal.

I'm voting Cojin, Scien. You're welcome to join us.

us? (goes back to look at votes, sees zito is voting by himself).....us?

qwints is also voting Cojin.

I don't see your case against Cojin, PapaZ. You have attempted recently to solicit both Zorblag and my votes against Cojin, but I don't think you have yet attempted to ask Cojin anything. Am I wrong?

Oy.

Please read Cojin in iso and tell me what you think, Scien.

[Papa Zito]

Besides, I have already said that I would do nothing if we had to deal with a lurker. Somewhere on the front page I imagine.

Do you find lurking to be a scumtell or a towntell?

[Papa Zito]

Typically? More of a scum tell. In this game? Meh. Less of one, but maybe still a bit on the scummy side.

Hang on, hang on, follow me here.

Based on his general play, would you say you have a strong read on him, a weak read on him, or not much of a read at all?

[Papa Zito]

No read.

Arrite.

So here you have a player who you have no real read on (due to lack of contribution I'm assuming) but whose lurking you find slightly scummy. You've previously said in the thread that you have no real interest in pushing lurkers, so you're willing to let him slide.

Now let's take the scenario that the game is in LyLo and he's still around.

...

Do you see why this behavior shouldn't be tolerated?

You mentioned earlier that he's responded to questions. I disagree. His responses were basically "I have no real opinions" which, if not scummy, is certainly anti-town. Given that direct questioning hasn't yielded results, my opinion is that pressure just might. Therefore I have continually asked that other players add their vote to pressure Cojin into participating. (That said, I am absolutely for his lynch if this tactic fails to produce results as well)

Thank you for taking this tour through Papa Zito's thought process. We hope you enjoyed your time with us. Your exit is to your right; please watch your step.

[Papa Zito]

So no. No I don't see why it shouldn't be tolerated. Lurking is scummy, but never enough for me to lynch on for lurking alone.

Wow.

Okay, let me try another tack. How are you going to get a read on Cojin?

[Papa Zito]

I seen to be in.a targwt rich environment.

A-freaking-men.

[Papa Zito]

Dear Sajin,

WTF r u doin?


Sincerely,

PZ

[Papa Zito]

We're running out of time, kids.

MiteyMouse (3) <-~ Zorblag, Nikanor, Cojin
Cojin (3) <-~ Papa Zito, qwints, MiteyMouse

We have two viable wagons here. We need to pick one.

[Papa Zito]

Cojin, scumlist please.

[Papa Zito]

^^^ Echo these questions. My only other comment on Cojin's post is that meta defenses make me twitch.

[Papa Zito]

Scien, Cojin has already avoided earlier questions. What are you trying to prove here?

[Papa Zito]

Cojin is going to flip town, willing to lay money on it.

So... you hammered someone you think is town?

Good luck, go town. I'll post occasionally just to avoid being replaced but don't expect a commitment from me going forward.

Dude, seriously?

Okay, Cojin is town, Sajin is scum. Sajin's parter = ?

[Papa Zito]

Erm. Hohum, you just unequivocally stated that Sajin is scum. You've already found one (pretend he's flipped or something). Looking at the interactions of today, who do you think is his partner?

[Papa Zito]

Pay more attention, scum:

Oh, there you go. See that was easy.

[Papa Zito]

Right now I'm at:

Mitey
hohum
Scien

In that order.

Gonna go reread and see if I can figure out why qwints was killed.

[Papa Zito]

Oy. Qwints was all over the place yesterday. I don't think the kill was defensive.

Troll, if you think the scum team came up with a mistake plan, wouldn't it make sense to engineer that so that the scum partner could say "ah ha!" and jump on the wagon? Neither Scien nor Nikanor were on the wagon.

Also, why are you comfortable with this:

I'm not going to lie. I did not read my PM carefully until after the game started. Actually, it was not until Zorblag called me on my post about the Scum needing to die to win the game. I read it carefully after that.

... given what we know of Mitey's past history with this style of game?

Nikanor, who's scum?

[Papa Zito]

Just reread Scien at the end of the day. He does look really bad.

vote: Scien

BTW, highly anticipating hohum's entrance.

[Papa Zito]

Uh... but wouldn't scum know exactly how many vetoes they had... well, because they used them?

Its a mistake, and yes it might have been an intentional 'mistake' in order to add to his statistics point he was trying to make, but I think I need more convincing to get make it a blatant scum slip in my mind.

Seems like it would be fairly foolhardy to so blatantly claim rules that are not true anyway in any kind of discussion you would get in.

Oh... you are suggesting the thing I am discussing is what he is trying to do? Get people to believe he is not scum by making a 'mistake' like this.

Do you think he is clever enough to pull that? (No offense intended, I probably wouldn't be clever enough to do so either)

Yuk.

Daytalk. You are right. We are working against a fully functioning team here.

So then... let me ask about the thought process that went into the math:

2. Given my meta i find it unlikly to be vetoed, and a higher chance to be lynched, i would say I am 1/3-1/4 likely to be choosen.

How did you arrive at 1/3 - 1/4?

I have a strong belif that i would be choosen

Why did this change at end of day when compared to the beginning of day? The math wouldn't have changed. So why did your beliefs change?

These three in particular. Quiet defense and delay.

[Papa Zito]

This page would make Mastin proud. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to respond to in this mess, especially since Scien has apparently come to his senses. If someone wants me to respond to something in particular please point it out.

Sajin, what's your Nikanor case?

[Papa Zito]

You and Troll.

Actually, I'm waiting for hohum to show up and Nikanor to do something.

[Papa Zito]

I'm sorry guys, I have the flu. I feel like someone worked me over with a baseball bat.

FTR, Tamiflu is some sort of miracle drug.

I still want to lynch Scien for waffling late yesterday.

[Papa Zito]

Aaaand suddenly Scien's less interesting.

[Papa Zito]

Dude, I had the flu. Did you miss that part?

You're suddenly less interesting because Mitey just wrote a post that's so dripping scum you could bottle it.

Yes they mean the same thing. I am a master of the English language; synonyms are but one aspect of a finely honed craft.

Gonna go iso Mitey now.

[Papa Zito]

I'd exclude Troll.

post coming in a bit later today, promise.

Hrmph.

unvote: Scien
vote: hohum

[Papa Zito]

Deadline looms. Post, people.

[Papa Zito]

Blah. Of course they'd kill Sajin.

Rereading.

[Papa Zito]

Papa Z, why do you think that "of course they'd kill Sajin".

He was the only one of you lot that I had a really good feeling about.

MiteyMouse (2) <-~ Nikanor,

Cojin

Cojin

(5) <-~

Papa Zito

,

qwints

, MiteyMouse, Zorblag,

hohum

Nikanor (1) <-~

Sajin

Not voting (1) <-~ Scien

With 9 living, 5 will do it.

Cojin lynch is looking townie-driven, which makes sense.

Nikanor (1) <-~

Sajin

hohum (4)

<-~ Nikanor, MiteyMouse,

Papa Zito

, Zorblag

Not voting (2) <-~

hohum

, Scien

With 7 living, 4 will do it.

Not enough info here yet, obviously... more for future reference.

Three interesting things to note from this. One, Sajin ended both days on Nikanor. Two, Scien ended both days

not voting

. Three, Nikanor was off the scum wagon Day 1 but on the townie wagon Day 2. I think our scum lies in one of these two; I'm leaning Nikanor. (this would also make Mitey extremely likely Chosen) brb, iso.

[Papa Zito]

FOS:PZ

I Really Really dont like how you said she would be here tommorow, givin that scum to day talk I am going to make the assumption that pz knows that MM will post tommorow due to PM conversation.

Meanwhile with MM I cant let the slip slide as a brain fart, and as far as unlikly choosen/most likely to be scum im going to have to go with MM.

Vote Miteymouse

If we are to point out people who have an obvious lack of knowledge of a town pm, it would be this guy:

Avoiding a lynch may prevent us from hitting one of the chosen but, it also keeps us from getting the Scummies.

We can't win with them alive.

We CAN win with the scum alive, so long as we don't lynch either of the chosen. The fact that you forget about one of town's win conditions is disconcerting.

Vote: MiteyMouse

Papa Zito's votehopping is duely noted. The fact that he only takes time to answer Zorblag's questions AFTER both bandwagons have gone cold amplifies the scumminess of his bandwagon-jumping, and makes me want to

FoS: Papa Zito

Almost uncanny, isn't it?

[Papa Zito]

@Mod: Are the scum forced to night-kill?

[Papa Zito]

Bah. Missed that. There goes that idea.

So I'm going to

vote: Nikanor

then.

[Papa Zito]

Scien and Mitey, your opinions on Nikanor plz.

[Papa Zito]

I don't recall saying anything like that, Scien. Quote it for me?

[Papa Zito]

Ah.

Not uninvolved. I find it scummy because it seems as if you're deliberately avoiding wagons so as not to leave tracks. You're obviously involved as you've been posting.

[Papa Zito]

I saw you defending/avoiding/waffling/-ing a scum player at the end of day 1, and keeping clear of a townie lynch day 2 without strongly advocating an alternative. I can see these as scum tactics.

To your second question: Bandwagon analysis is one of the best tools at Town's disposal so a refusal to lay a vote (i.e. a refusal to join any bandwagon whatsoever) is damaging to this instrument. Not laying a vote is equivalent to saying "everyone is neutral, I have no good reads on anyone" which is a scum stance.

[Papa Zito]

[1]Do you think that you would see me staying one hundred percent neutral, waffling, avioding, etc as opposed to trying to drive towards Mitey? [2]Why do you think it would be more benefital from a Scien scum standpoint to be completely out of the fight, rather than trying to push towards a lynch on another? [3]Which seems more scummy to you, pushing towards a town/chosen or not pushing towards anyone?

1. Driving towards someone isn't your style. I don't ever see you driving wagons. Besides, the Mitey wagon never had steam. Troll refused multiple times to push the wagon along and Cojin/Nikanor were more-or-less absent.
2. It's a fairly common scum tactic. Scum prefer to lay low and blend in.
3. Not pushing towards anyone. Town mislynch town all the time; sad but true. I don't have a problem with it though when their reasons for the mislynch are sound. Those that stay on the sidelines or quietly join without expressing strong opinions on the matter, though, are highly suspect.

Also related but on a different line, you say that "everyone is neutral, I have no good reads on anyone", is a scum stance. Why, and with what stipulations?

Keeping players in neutral makes it easier for scum to slide onto wagons without causing too many ripples. It's much harder for scum to join a townie mislynch wagon if they've previously identified the wagoned player as town. Beyond that it's just impossible (to me) to play a game and come to the end of a day without having some read on some players.

Only stipulations on this I can think of are if the game just started or if the player just replaced in.

Why are we having all this theory discussion?

[Papa Zito]

Troll's addressed a lot of this (better than I could) so I won't repeat what he said.

You are saying that her wagon had no steam? She was at L-2 with a possible me and you as the finishers. Whats your definition of no steam?

Yes, Scien, I'm saying her wagon had no steam. That's why I wrote "her wagon had no steam." I've also already told you why - none of the three sitting on her were actually pushing for her lynch.

My call to vote for one of the wagons was just that. I wanted to see where people were going to go. I had no intention of unvoting Cojin myself. I find it odd that you would think so when I espoused his lynch the whole back half of the day.

At [3], have I been quietly joining anyone? Mitey's wagon? Hohum's? Anybodies? Was I even stoking the fire at all?

You refused, and continue to refuse, to keep a vote on anyone for longer than 10 seconds. So no, you haven't been joining anyone. FTR I put a lot more stock into votes than I do text. We're almost polar opposites on this regard so I don't really expect you to understand this.

[Papa Zito]

Papa Zito, you had made it pretty clear that you thought MiteyMouse was scum. Troll thinks that it no be at all unreasonable for Scien to think that you would be willing to switch to her wagon without all that much pressure.

I believe I also made it clear that she was caught and so I was more interested in finding her partner.

It's kinda like on Battleship where you hit a ship and then keep hunting instead of spending turns sinking the ship you found.

[Papa Zito]

*nods* Troll did see that. Troll also assumed that if we got close to deadline that Papa Zito would switch to MiteyMouse to see if that would result in a lynch rather than staying with Cojin and settling for a no lynch with two wagons that no were moving. Does Troll be wrong about that?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

No, that's correct. If deadline was imminent and the Cojin wagon wasn't going to happen, I would have switched to Mitey, or whoever the leading opposing wagon happened to be. Fortunately you moved first.

[Papa Zito]

You find it odd? The cases on them were both similar. Mostly lurking claims, followed by lynch all lurker arguments. Why would the lurker matter? I don't see how me thinking you would switch after the quote I mentioned would be a unreasonable assumption.

There was more to the Cojin case than just lurking.

Yep. I thought so. So back to me then. Assuming you think me scum, you think it more likely that I would sit quiet rather than push attention away from a scum partner and towards someone else? Someone that would have been townie, and with just about the same amount of pressure as my supposed Cojin partner?

I know full well that you're capable of long-term planning as scum, Scien. A scenario in which you helped Cojin invent his mistake and then questioned him on it in an attempt to clear him isn't outside the realm of possibility.

As a quick aside, do you think you pushed for Mitey in day two? After finding her partner? Or had you decided that she wasn't scum after all?

I suggest you reread Day 2 to get your answer.

I really hope you're going somewhere with this.

[Papa Zito]

Papa Zito's case on MiteyMouse wasn't lurking though. It was the incorrect statement of the win conditions that she made early in the game.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

... which was bad because she's played Chosen before.

[Papa Zito]

Fine... I'll reread you in iso and come back with more questions since you would not like to give me your opinion. I have a feeling that for being confident she was scum in day 1, you were awfully light on her in day 2.

This smells like spin. I want you to do the research yourself and see what your conclusion is. Because right now you're just making baseless attacks.

[Papa Zito]

I think you should read Day 2 again, too, Mitey.

[Papa Zito]

That's it? You're at L-1 and the best you can come up with is "yeah but what if I'm Chosen" scare tactics?

[Papa Zito]

[1]Were you actually confident she was scum in day 1, your first day 2 list supports this? [2]Was your list at the beginning of day 2 due to your thoughts of day 1 minus the end? [3]After you started looking at others, did you forget about her?

1. I was indeed. I happened to know that Mitey was playing in another Chosen game (which just ended, thankfully - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11842) so my belief was that she was well aware of the Chosen mechanic and how it worked. For her to screw that up in this game seemed a sure scum tell.
2. I'm not sure what you mean by this. I figured Mitey was scum, so she was first. hohum's crappy hammer made him #2. Your behavior at the end of Day 1 made you #3. So I'm not sure what you mean "minus the end".
3. Not at all. If you look at the beginning of the day, you'll note that I ask Troll directly about the Mitey slip. I took his response, looked back at the thing in context, and decided I was on the wrong track. And then I got distracted by hohum's lack of anything.

[Papa Zito]

Sigh... I can already hear you crying about me 'attacking' you again

Ok. [1]How far down did Mitey move when you subscribed to Zorblag's views on Mitey's slip? Was/is she still suspicious to you? Even Zorblag seemed to think the slip still had some elements of scumminess about it (or so he claimed at the time). [2]Did she move far enough off your suspect list that her later post in the day that was 'dripping with scum' was not enough to look at her again before your Hohum pursuit?

1. She went to third. That change didn't affect my town reads.
2. It didn't but it probably should have. I was pretty pissed at hohum for being an outright cad though.

What's your current top 3 scum list?

You want a top 3 out of 5 players? Hmm.

[Papa Zito]

Because I'm feeling really good about this lynch I guess. Nikanor's lurkish behavior while at L-1 would have convinced me if I wasn't already convinced. I think we're about to win so I'm just waiting to pop the champagne bottle.

Why Nikanor over Mitey? I thought I'd given my opinion on Nikanor earlier. Votes matter more than rhetoric.

[Papa Zito]

So Nikanor, who is your top suspect and why aren't you voting him/her?

[Papa Zito]

Yah.

One scum, two Chosen, one VT.

50/50 shot of winning this thing.

[Papa Zito]

A lynch of the VT or the scum means a town win, so I'm cool either way. We'd have to identify the VT somehow to do it.

Based on a reread, I think the setup is:

MiteyMouse: Chosen
Papa Zito: Chosen
Scien: Scum
Zorblag: VT

Let's all post these and see if we can find a common thread.

[Papa Zito]

Troll supposes that Troll thinks the most likely scenario be the one Papa Zito came up with but it still makes Troll uncomfortable. If Scien be scum then either Troll or Papa Zito should be vanilla and should be dead by now and that clearly no be the case.

This part is bugging me too.

[Papa Zito]

I was 100% convinced Sajin was town. The way hohum tunneled him I thought he was Chosen and hohum scum.

Hard to type with a puppy on your lap.

g hbyn

Papa Zito...Scum

lulz Yes Mitey. I wrecked my chances by wiping out my partner the first day.

Also, yeah, somehow this end scenario doesn't feel coincidental.

[Papa Zito]

That last post by Scien makes an interesting assumption. Without Troll saying what it is does Scien know what it be?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Very clever, Troll.

[Papa Zito]

Arrite. Hopefully I remember. heh

F S T A T, S M H K T O L W O A N-C T. T O W F S T K T I I H W S.

[Papa Zito]

Fun times.

(Oh hai Mitey we're passing codes. >_> <_< >_>)

[Papa Zito]

Good call. My memory is poor as well.

Notepaded.

I'm gonna feel pretty silly if my interpretation is wrong.

[Papa Zito]

:/ Some code. lawl

Hey Mitey, join in the fun. It's like an RPG mini-quest.

[Papa Zito]

Pre-emptive happy scumday, Mitey!

[Papa Zito]

For Scien To Assume This, Scien Must Have Known That Our Lynch Was On A Non-Chosen Townie. The Only Way For Scien To Know This Is If He Was Scum.

I'll pick a better code next time, heh.

Meh... it was implied when it was said, and I would tend to agree, but the most likely person here that would ignore win condition to set up a situation like this,

or attempt to do so

would be Ms. Mouse.

I recall a certain newbie game in which you were the primary architect in an endgame that's eerily similar to this one.

[Papa Zito]

Eh.

So what's your list Scien? Two Chosen, one VT, one Scum.

[Papa Zito]

That's better than nothing I suppose.

I recognize that there are other possibilities than what I posted; I just feel that list is the most likely. If you've got one that's a fair bit more likely than the others then I'd like to see that one.

[Papa Zito]

Cojin being here or not did not really hurt whoever the Scum is did it Papa? I'm not sure that that is a valid arguement at all...but, if you did bus then it bought you some Town cred didn't it?

Sorry Mitey, somehow I completely missed these questions.

We played as scum together once. How enthused was I by the notion of bussing you? Because if I was bussing here I'd have to have been absolutely vicious about it.

Also, do you think any town cred I might have earned outweighs the loss of a partner right off the bat? Given the setup, wouldn't that make it much harder for me to win?

[Papa Zito]

So Troll has effectively put himself at L-1. Not hammering ITP.

Very interesting move, and it's put Scien-as-scum in a spot. He has to say that Zorblag is possible Chosen in order to justify not hammering. It also takes away one of the votes he would need to lynch a Chosen.

Need some moar Mitey before I drop a vote but I'm about ready to.

[Papa Zito]

Note: Unlike previous Chosen games that have been run, this Chosen does

not

use the "self-voting counts as two votes" rule. Just wanted to make that clear in case it wasn't already.

It wasn't, thanks Incognito.

[Papa Zito]

vote: Zorblag

I'd rather vote Scien.

Voting Troll seems anti-American.

[Papa Zito]

Not sure what that clears up, Zorblag. If you're VT like you and I think then our scum's only play left is to convince one of us to unvote. I can easily see Mitey's "gee Troll you may be Chosen and lose the game for us" be geared towards that end.

I have so much anticipation for Scien's reaction.

[Papa Zito]

Ah, the danger that you were Chosen. Got it, I misinterpreted.

[Papa Zito]

Oh I know. But I am. And I was doing it.

Vote Troll already so we can win this.

[Papa Zito]

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

[Papa Zito]

Mitey is our scum.

Sorry Scien. Manhug at the after-party.

[Papa Zito]

if people want to spend the time doing something other than lynching Troll.

lol

My mistake was an honest one. I thought you were calling Scien's bluff. I appreciate the vote of confidence tho.

[Papa Zito]

Voting a Chosen isn't going to make you look any more town, Mitey.

[Papa Zito]

I don't have a strong belief. I'm absolutely sure.

[Papa Zito]

No ma'am.

Troll is absolutely town.

I know I am town.

Everyone here would have excluded Zorblag. Zorblag is VT.

That makes me Chosen.

You or Scien are scum. But it actually doesn't matter which. All that matters is that our VT gets lynched. Though your play here convinces me that you're scum, making Scien the last Chosen.

weee

[Papa Zito]

The scum had no idea that this situation would come up though. For all they knew in pregame, once of the Chosen would get lynched day 1. Excluding anyone but the strongest townie player would just be suboptimal play.

[Papa Zito]

Come on Scien. Surely you don't have anything better to do on a Saturday night.

[Papa Zito]

I'm posting from my phone as I help the kids get ready for bed.

So, yes.

[Papa Zito]

Yeah, life was simpler at 25.

Mitey, could you please just vote Troll so we can win this? TIA.

[Papa Zito]

I know it's meaningless to reassure you but I'm clean this game. We're on the same side again. Which means one of Scien/Mitey are not, again. Which just further reinforces the this-is-not-coincidence theory.

[Papa Zito]

Papa Zito is still town.

[Papa Zito]

There's no sense lying now.

At this point it's just a matter of finding out if you were Chosen or not.

[Papa Zito]

Eh, that's true. If he was Chosen she would have hammered.

Yay us?

[Papa Zito]

YAY US!!!

Fixed.

[Papa Zito]

So Mitey, tell us about the Cojin thing.

[Papa Zito]

^^ this

Also I thoroughly enjoyed the flavor. Great stuff.

[Papa Zito]

Er. ^^ this was towards Troll's post.

[Papa Zito]

You've said this a lot recently. I can't help think but feel this is addressed to me.

All I can say is that I turned towards the mechanic when I felt it was appropriate. Until then I just played a regular game. Worked pretty good the first day and then kinda went downhill from there. heh

[Papa Zito]

You were obvtown, Sajin. You had to die.

[Papa Zito]

And I would like your response to my arguments working under the fact that I thought he was scum, and myself chosen.

This is what I was operating under, for what it's worth. After day 1 when hohum more-or-less refused to participate I figured it was because his opening gambit (brute force a Chosen lynch) had failed.

[Papa Zito]

BTW, for me at least, /invitational was a success. Hope we do one of these again sometime.

[Papa Zito]

Oh, and Ether you're brilliant and I like your game.

[Papa Zito]

And... nicely rounded?