Mini 843- The Fast and the Furious Mafia! (Over-Mod Error)

[Shadow Knight]

/confirm

[Shadow Knight]

holy crap. labor day weekend. I'll be back tuesday.

[Shadow Knight]

Well in my initial read, I've got DJ listed as town- his posts seem genuine. I'm also interested in hearing from kodamma, although I'll hold my vote for now.

[Shadow Knight]

After his response, I'm willing to back off a bit for now, but I'll still be watching him. His response seems to come from a townie mindset, which is really all I've got to go one at this point in the game. He's gotten himself back to even footing, but I'm not prepared to label him a townie yet. He's correct about his vote sparking discussion (and about it putting him in the spotlight). He gets bonus points for ending the RVS (which I've never been a fan of, but that just means I like him as a player). I like that we now have interactions to analyze for later in the game as well. Overall, I'd say I'm neutral on kodamma for now. Further posts from him will hopefull change that.

[Shadow Knight]

When I say townie mindset, I mean that it seems like something I would post as town without sounding too... contrived is the only word I can think of to use here right now.

Bonus points don't mean town or scum (or I would have called them townie points for scum points). I just meant that I like him as a player more because he ended the RVS quickly. I meant it when I said as far as town/scum goes, my reading on him is neutral.

While townies aren't afraid to piss people off, good townies realize that while the spotlight is on them, it isn't on scum. I generally try to keep my head down during the first day unless I spot a blatant scumtell.

[Shadow Knight]

Sorry, for the absence. Sick friday and then I'm always busy on the weekends.

No, I'm not going to post links to previous games because I wouldn't trust a metagame analysis someone posted of themself, so I don't provide metagame analysis of myself.

As far as lurking, I don' t feel that I am. I'm commenting on everything I feel its necessary to comment on. The reason I haven't FOS'd anyone is because I don't really use FOS's. If I find someone scummy, I vote them. I haven't found anyone scummy yet this game, hence me not voting anyone yet. I don't feel the need to park my vote somewhere until its needed. I'll vote when when I make a case against someone or see a case I can agree with.

[Shadow Knight]

The boxman wagon looked the the typical run-of-the-mill attempt to get out of RVS to me. I find wagons like that to be a null tell on day one. Now if someone gets run up like that tomorrow, it becomes a useful tool for comparing interactions.

If your looking for long range meta, you can also check my old account both here and MTGS. I used to be draygn_mage, although I daresay my playstyle has changed in the years I was gone.

[Shadow Knight]

Orly? I think Spyre needs to pump the brakes a bit because part of that post looks like misrepresentation. You're using "check my meta" as though I told someone to do so. In reality, someone asked me to provide meta on myself, and I declined. You're cutting "quick wagons are null" and leaving out "early on day 1". I challenge you to find examples where scum were caught starting a bandwagon right out of the RVS. As far as "the major bulk of topics" please ask me a direct question and I'll be happy to answer you.

[Shadow Knight]

He's mistating what I said in a manner so as to convince others of my guilt. That is misrepresentation. Misinterpretation is more benign (at least that how I use them.)

Next post will have my twisted arm given scum. I want to read a couple people in iso first.

[Shadow Knight]

Didn't fall off anywhere. Can't get reliable access. Looking at Faraday, Ross, and Bunny. Will post more when the net is fixed.

[Shadow Knight]

Yay! Network connection at work has been restored. Hopefully, I can have a quiet 4 hour day so I can bust out a few walls o text. I generally find that the most dangerous scum are the ones who manage to become the leader of the thread. To that end, I'm going to do a quick PBPA of Faraday as he seems to be quite vocal but something was nagging at me while reading him in isolation.

Away we go.

/confirmed

Null

Vote Boxman

obv scum.

Random/joke vote= Null Tell

boxman who's scum?

Generating discussion is good, but you seriously expect a scum list this early? This strikes me as weird because at this point, boxman has 4 votes on him so its almost like you're daring him to OMGUS someone.

Do you not like bandwagons and think they provide information?

Don may have given a reason, but really, that makes him less likely to be scum, because....why? Do you think unexplained votes are scummy?

Surely Kodamma would/should be at the top since he placed a later vote on you and also didn't give a reason, no?

Another kinda odd post directed at boxman. The first question again seems like you're trying to get him to say something stupid. In the second part, you're challenging the list you just fished out of him and asking him another question where it seems like you're trying to trip him up. I've seen lawyers use this kind of questioning to discredit witnesses by getting them to say something stupid. My problem is that I don't know if this is coming from a townie who is actively scumhunting or a scum who is trying to get a townie mislynched.

where did i call your vote scummy?

i find you removing your unvote more interesting, and boxman not placing you top of his scumlist.

This was aimed at kodamma. In rereading, I can see why he would feel this way. You just asked boxman why kodamma wasn't higher on his scum list, so I can see kodamma making the leap that you're calling his vote scummier than Mordy, who was at the top of boxman's scum list. can you explain the second part a little better? You find the removing of his unvote (or did you mean his vote) more interesting? Also, are you saying you find kodamma's action more interesting than or equally interesting as boxman not putting him higher on the scumlist?

Unreasoned votes attempting to bandwagon me to lynch within a few hours for a single semi-random vote are scummy to me, yes.

the likelyhood of you being lynched off a random bandwagon like that is ...what, pretty much zero.

this isn't a newbie game.

While its true that the chances of being lynched via random bandwagon are low, unexplained votes are never good as it lets the voter go back later and fill in whatever reason they feel like to make their vote look good. The only people who'd want to do that are scum. Therefore (in my book at least) unexplained votes = scummy. This is another post where you make comments, but don't really take a stand on anything. (Beginning to see a pattern.)

Well I can understand why you'd prefer not to be bandwagoned. I'm more-so seeing trying to see if you actually think the bandwagon has scummy motivations.

Bandwagons are a good way to end the 'random voting stage', the sooner that ends the better. I see nothing wrong with 3 people jumpin on in an effort to kickstart discussion.

I guess I'm confused here. You've been questioning him this whole time trying to figure out if he thinks a random bandwagon had scummy motivations? And now that boxman has said that he didn't mind being bandwagoned, but was more worried about the speed the votes were piled on (3 votes in 2 hours), you act as though he answered in a completely different way and you seem to reverse your thoughts on kodamma (apparently now, its not scummy at all to be part of that bandwagon?)

Starbuck anything else to add?

Also would like to point out the next few days are slightly hectic for me, moving in to a new apartment and first week of university, so I could be short on posting time.

Null.

Scum wants to be in the middle of an irrational bandwagon. I bet Kodamma was hoping somebody would jump on after him. Nobody jumps on, well then we gotta jump off! The last person to jump on always gets some attention, and thats bad for scum.

There is no real one place scum want to be. Trying to read his mind will get us no-where, I think he just simply jumped on the bandwagon. There's nothing particularly suspicious about that in and of itself.

Whoaaa this game is moving wayy faster than my last game haha...

With that said, what prompted everyone to start voting Boxman all of a sudden? I can see Faraday suggesting the worth of a bandwagon, especially minus the risk that he'd get randomly lynched... But can you clarify this more? This is my first non-newbie game, so perhaps a bit explanation might help.

Bandwagons are good, in general.

A vote is our means of pressure, thus more votes = moar pressure. The bandwagon on Boxman not only let us guage his reaction, but like we saw who he was suspicious of and so on. Basically it's a good way to kick the game off, and end the 'random voting stage' (hate that term).

Actually nevermind, I just caught up with the thread and it's starting to make more sense. Out of the three that bandwagoned, faraday and don I'd have to say come off as fairly neutral, assuming I'm wording my thoughts correctly. Kodamna's intentions, on the other hand, are quite debateable I'd have to say... Ross does have a point about kod...

Why do myself and don in particular appear neutral?

What do you mean by 'debateable'. Please clarify.

While you are absolutely correct about me testing the waters with my bandwagon vote Ross, I think you, and others, misunderstand my intentions on unvoting.

It makes no sense for me to unvote fearing I was under scrutiny, as I've only become under serious scrutiny, since unvoting.

I stand by my statement when I unvoted, I found Boxman's reaction to be strong and I was not pushing for a player to feel threatened this early in day 1. I did find Faraday's probing questions to Boxman regarding his decision and placement of order of suspects interesting, mostly because, Faraday has yet to remove his vote from Boxman.

Hence my vote for Faraday. To which he raised suspicions of my allegiance, but did not answer why he left his vote up.

Food for thought.

Why don't you want a player, boxman in this case, to feel threatened this early on Day 1. Don't use it early in being day 1 as an excuse, that's crap, it's never too early to put people under pressure.

Thanks; I'm well aware I've yet to remove my vote. You also didn't answer my question in post 36. Where did I call you scummy, I was asking Boxman, using his logic, why you'd not be at the top of his scumlist. I didn't indicate your bandwagonning vote was scummy, and in fact I thought it was reasonably clear I felt the opposite.

I do not think he should be the lynch of the day (he probably won't either as it's only the start of the day and the main reasons for his lynch are bad in the first place

It was pretty much a random bandwagon, so obviously the reasons are less than stellar.

MordyS's 50/51 are solid/correct.

I really didn't see what don_johnson saw of Boxman. It's supposed to be RVS, so why give a reason at all? I definitely don't like that quick bandwagon.

Now I'm not really that suspicious of don_johnson because at least he gave a detailed reason, but MordyS and Kodamma jumped on for no reason other than "who can resist a wagon!". Kodamma, once called out, quickly jumps off the wagon.

I'm not sure if I buy his defense in post 48.

FOS: Kodamma

Why FOS instead of vote?

I know that you started it and I did just read it, so please don't tell me to re-read. don_johnson was the only person who gave a reason, you didn't even give one.

I really don't buy that you were trying to get the game moving.

Why are you trying to deflect attention?

Why not? What do you think his motivation was then?

So more or less, Mordy is FOSing me for disagreeing with him because we have different points of view.

This is a strawman.

Tjoe doesn't seem like the type who's going to contribute much information.....piggybacking can mean you're scum, or you're just lazy town.....lazy town is worst, because there's no solution for it....at least we can lynch scum. Lynching town is never a good idea.

This is all obvious and seems like posting for the sake of posting.

Do you think Tjoe is scum or lazy town at this stage?

Also

Unvote Vote Kodamma

Starts off by defending kodamma and arguing about scum vote tactics with ross. Then moves on to explain why bandwagons are good. asks roland why his and dj's vote on boxman are neutral, but kodamma's vote is bad. clarifies his questioning of boxman's scum order. Claims he wasn't calling kodamma scummy, just wanted to know why boxman didn't think he was scummier than mordy. reiterates that he doesn't find kodamma's bandwagon vote on boxman scummy. agrees that the bandwagon was random and therefore baseless. asks starbuck why she's only FOSing after she displays a lack of belief in kodamma's defense of his unvote. Asks for a firmer stance on tjoe. Ends by voting kodamma. Most of the things he's said about kodamma to this point are pseudo defenses of him (or at least his vote). I'm curious to know why the vote on kodamma here. What changed since the beginning of the post?

A quick meta of Tjoe seems to suggest this is actually standard-ish behaviour from him. General lack of content, bandwaggoning etc. Check your other posts yourself to have a look.

Will do a more in-depth read later tho' just in case. Uni first.

Meh.

From what I've gathered Faraday seems pro-town to me so far. He has done nothing particuarly scummy in my eyes and is contributing a lot to the discussion. I would like to hear more from Kodamma before I do much more first. Kodamma-Can you please tell us everything you were thinking as you voted boxman and quickly jumped off?

I'll wait for kodamma too

Let's not all stop posting while we wait on him to show up though. There are other players in the game

There is no real one place scum want to be. Trying to read his mind will get us no-where, I think he just simply jumped on the bandwagon. There's nothing particularly suspicious about that in and of itself.

NOWHERE?...not entirely true.some scum may use MordyS' lead as momentum to bring more vote

Well from the qualifiers you used i.e. 'some' and 'may' then I'd say it kinda proves my point. Not really worthy of discussion though.

A vote is our means of pressure, thus more votes = moar pressure. The bandwagon on Boxman not only let us guage his reaction, but like we saw who he was suspicious of and so on. Basically it's a good way to kick the game off, and end the 'random voting stage' (hate that term).

quick bandwagon isn't good for town and can considerable anti-town.

this bandwagon was both good for the town and quick, obviously context is key, as with everything.

Re: Starbuck and her FOS: fair 'nuff really. It wasn't clear to me that you suspected Mordy more than Kodamma.

A call to not stop discussion while waiting for kodamma to come back. Then 2 quick comments regarding boxman's wagon and wagons in genera. nothing really here for such a big post (its 90% quote).

Reasons for the vote:
It tests the waters
It provokes discussion
It definitely ended the RVS stage although I seem to be the target as a result

This is fine, and was not something I, in this case was even curious about.

Reasons for the unvote:
My statement about him feeling threatened is truly what I felt. Why it mattered to me is that Boxman's reaction, and the resulting discussion between Boxman and Faraday, made it seem like Box is truly town. Meaning that, worst case scenario, all town had bandwagoned him and scum could easily pile on and hammer the lynch home. Although this seems unprobable, as it would make there actions very obvious to some players, why give them the opportunity.

How likely would you say it'd be for scum to quick lynch someone day 1? Unless they're say, completely incompetent, nothing so blatant will happen.

What about his reaction made him seem town? You think b/c he felt under threat he's more likely to be town? If that's the case then I flat out disagree, as it's a null tell. I actually thought he over-reacted a bit to a random bandwagon.

My gut in all of this though is that in my experience, Day 1 is usually spent with a lot of active town, tripping over their own discussions and quicly laid suspicions, resulting in us lynching one of our own and then re-evaluating on Day 2 as the scum have then killed whichever one of us during Day 1 was having the most productive discussions. It has also been my experience that most scum spend Day 1 hanging back and making low content posts to let the town deal with themselves.

I don't like this at all. Seems like an excuse to go lurker hunting (not in and of itself a bad thing fwiw) and excusing scummy behaviour if people are active. I realise that's probably an oversimplification of what you're trying to say, but still this rubs me the wrong way.

Also at this point, I am pretty sure Faraday's intentions are pure.

Wait...why?

I hope this helps us all on our further discussions, and I do understand why the interpretations of my actions combined with my recent absence led us down this road.

You seem to be tring too hard to appease everyone, like you don't want to ruffle anyones feathers.

There's no reason for a scum player to respond as adamantly as he did towards to quick bandwagon.
He also responded well to Faraday's discussion regarding logic behind people's moves and why they may be helpful vs. damning.

From what I've seen, a scum player in that position would be more inclined to invalidate the bandwagon through deflecting back onto those people that bandwagoned on him rather than listening to logic and dissecting arguments to find points of interest/contention.

I don't understand the first bit. Surely scum or town would have equal reason to oppose the bandwagon. Do you think his strong opposition to his

own

banwagon to be a town tell? That doesn't really make sense to me, if that's what you're saying.

But he (boxman)

initially

did point back to the people on the bandwagon did he not?

Are you guys the most obvious scumteam ever or just mindless sheep?

Seems to indicate he did find those on his bandwagon scummy. Sure he eventually agreed/conceded some points, but that wasn't his initial reaction.

Kodamma who's scum?

Shadow Knight now that we've heard from Kodamma what are your thoughts?

Mordy I have a hard time seeing much to cause you to unvote in Kodamma's last post, what in particular satisfied you enough to unvote.

I agree with the response to kodamma here. I highly doubt that scum would have piled on just to quicklynch someone day 1. I think he's right about day 1's usually being a bunch of townies pointing fingers at eachother, although there is usally 1-2 scum mixed in trying to blend in as well. However I didn't read that as an attempt to go lurker hunting. I read it more as a point in his favor as it looked like he was trying to prevent townies from attacking eachother and letting scum slip by unnoticed. I also agree with the question of why does Faraday get a free pass? Its almost anti-OMGUS which is just as bad as OMGUS in my book. If the rest of kodamma's post didn't read like misguided townie to me, I'd be on him for this. I'm starting to realize that your method of scum hunting is trying to get people to talk themself into a circle. I don't mind pointing out crap logic when you see it, but laying traps where you ask questions designed to confuse people is going to catch town as often as you do scum. I'm still on the fence whether Faraday is townie or scum at this point.

@ Mordy: That's probably fair enough re: the Low content vs lurkers thing, but I still don't really like it. I see your point though.

Heads up scum. Being buddy-buddy with the town doesn't mean a thing. We'll lynch you anyway. So Kodamma and anybody else, you might as well stop playing the social game now because there is no social game to be played.

God I don't like this

at all

. It seems completely off, and even forced.

As to Kodamma's point about him feeling that Boxman was threatened, I'd agree on the part that Boxman seemed very confused and worried, and I myself felt that, but that was due to my relative inexperience at the time.

Yeh this while probably correct, tells us nothing about his alignment.

Too many people not voting.

I've no clue who Shadow Knight's top suspect is for example, he's been quite enough unless prodded with questions, and seems to be quite...idk passive, although perhaps it's just a playstyle.

Could the people not voting explain why, it seems like there's no reason not to have your vote on someone.

Starbuck you still have your vote on MordyS. Who would you say is your second suspect at this point?

And don is the only one who hasn't posted recently afaik. Not sure if he's within prod range or anything though, as we're moving at quite a fast pace.

Still very happy w/ my vote though, ftr.

Well, let me start off by saying that I believe that at least one of the 3 most prolific posters of the game are scum. My reasons for thinking that are partly statistical and partly gut, but I'll probably continue doing PBPA's until I see something glaringly wrong or at least a lot of little things that make me suspicious enough to vote.

I agree with Faraday that the Ross post seems forced and way over the top.

Couple of quick things...

While townies aren't afraid to piss people off, good townies realize that while the spotlight is on them, it isn't on scum. I generally try to keep my head down during the first day unless I spot a blatant scumtell.

Can you provide a link/game to show evidence of this, just so I can skim over. Search being down is a bitch, . Just to make sure this is true. Prefferably one as scum and town, but if not one will do.[/mech]

With regards to voting in general, I personally see my vote as being final

But it's not, you can change your vote at any time a lynch hasn't been achieved, thus there's no real reason not to use it, and have it on your top suspect.

And it's hard to defend the validity of something to someone who's only complaint is that it's awkward. "forced" is the word of the week apparently, but if my posts are consistantly that way, it's just a player trait...If I was doing something out of the ordinary it would be weird....Do a meta on me if your feeling diehard, I get that awkward reaction alot in these games.

I don't think they

are

consistently that way, but the two pointed out could be considered 'forced', buzzwords for the win. I'm not sure if it's over-eager townie, or over-eager scum though, it's just something I felt like needed to be pointed out, especially for future reference.


Need more don and starbuck in the thread. I've a splitting headache, so I'm off to bed.

Request to me to provide meta on myself. Already stated why I don't do that, but for clarification, I could post links to games where as scum I did a horrible job at playing townie (happens a lot actually) and as town played very scummy. Me providing you with games doesn't prove anything.

While I don't agree with what seems like a push to place a vote just for the sake of placing a vote, I like that Faraday is pushing to create a vote record. Personally, it doesn't matter to me as a record of not voting can be just as useful as a record of vote hopping all over. I disagree with the use of "over-eager" per se. It just comes off as over the top and there's no need for it. But that's splitting hairs. Ross is starting to look like my next PBPA.

Hmm some thoughts:

Starbuck seems different than twilight mafia; she seems to be less agressive here, and while town in that game she was mislynched, that's my only meta on her, though it's probably a weird game due to the nature of how it begin w/ Zwet being ridiculous.

The problem w/ Tjoe is it seems to be esentially a policy lynch, however I can see why his play would be seem as scummy, in general, it just seems to be the norm for him, however it does seem anti-town.

Tjoe what do you think of Boxman?

Shadow: I'm not asking you to self meta, I askesd for a link so I can meta. There's quite a difference there. Also that's annoying with search down, but I remember reading a deep south game where you were town, so I'll use that. It's just to make sure you're consistent. Who's your top suspect at the moment shadow? I get that you say you're careful, but there's careful/cautious and there's careful.

Boxman's list is there; he seems to be taking positions at least, even if they're not definite (though they won't be at this stage) which is good. A lot of people neutral or neutral leaning scum/town but not really scummy.

It does seem to still be slightly OMGUS as ther only reason for his Mordy suspicioun though.

Shadow seems more cautious when scum, from the 2 games I've read where he was one of each. Noted, although admittedly my sampe size is ridiculously small. Might need to read over some of his old games, when I get the chance. Blah.

I remember reading ASOIAF on mtgs, but that was ages ago. Bleh. Anyway carry on,happy with my kodamma vote and see no reason to change it.

First, please don't use ASOIAF as meta. I didn't even finish that game as I had a melt down left both sites for a couple years shortly thereafter. I explained why providing links to games myself is considered self meta- I could make myself look however I want depending on what links I give you. I do like that Faraday is using meta to feel out people on day 1. (I generally suck at reading other people's meta, so I don't use it myself, but I give townie points for people that can and do put in the time and effort to read through other games and compare and contrast.) As an aside, I read Boxman as townie more and more as we go on.


Crap I ran out of time so I'm going to have to leave this here. The conclusion I came to is that I'm leaning town on Faraday and Boxman, and will be doing a read of Ross in iso next with a possible PBPA following it.

[Shadow Knight]

@Doom- the turning point is where I realized that a lot of what I was getting suspicious about is just his way of scum hunting. Once I put things in that light, I'm able to say I'm leaning town on him.

[Shadow Knight]

Basically, my PBPA can be shortened to:

I reread Faraday and figured out why he stuck out to me (his scum hunting style is leave a juicy steak in the middle of a bear trap which is great when you catch the bear, but not so much when you destroy a raccoon). I came to the conclusion that Scummy scum hunting style =/= scum. Scum hunting = town. Ergo, Faraday = town.

The phones are ringing off the hook today, so I may not be able to get to a PBPA of Ross for a bit.

[Shadow Knight]

@Spyre/bunny- I started the PBPA because I was getting scum vibes from Faraday (of the something's not right, but I can't place what variety). By the time I realized what it was, and changed my opinion, I had already done a lot of work, and wasn't going to *not* post it. If you think that is scummy, then go ahead and lynch me. Me posting my thoughts (or anyone posting their thoughts) (whether I think someone is townie or scum) gives us something to compare behavior against. I currently feel that Faraday is a townie. I gave my reasons for it. I don't like the connotation for either of you that I should limit how much I type based on whether or not the end result is me thinking someone is scum or town.

[Shadow Knight]

@Spyre- My thinking was that if I came in and posted my summary instead of my PBPA, you'd have been all over me for another short post that doesn't find scum (although I was clearly looking for scum). That's probably not as clear as it sounded in my head, but that's all I've got time for at the moment.

Sometime this weekend I'll attempt to do a PBPA on my second suspect (Ross).

[Shadow Knight]

My only complaint about the claim is that she said he never showed up to the QT, but in the day scene, it says his phone had a ridiculous number of texts. If he wasn't talking to you, who was he talking to?

[Shadow Knight]

I second the request to don't stop including flavor. That's the point of theme games after all. I will hereby ignore flavor from here on out.

vote Tjoe

Are you serious? She's the closest thing to confirmed that we have right now and you vote her?

[Shadow Knight]

For the record, I *hate* comments like "Tjoe always acts like this, apparently, so that leaves..." No, it doesn't "leave." If he's acting scummy (and he is), he deserves to be voted. I can't stand it when people get a free pass for acting scummy because they *always* act scummy. If you don't want to be lynched, learn to play better. End of story.

[Shadow Knight]

at present, I'm liking the don/tjoe pairing. seriously don? you're voting me for no reason beyond "what spyre said". Nice that I have a case I can defend against and all.

[Shadow Knight]

@dj- nope. I can see someone coming in and deciding that I'm scum and voting me for it. I'm not going to let you barn him just to dodge responsibility for your vote.

[Shadow Knight]

EBWODP- and with that last post by DJ he climbs past Tjoe on scumminess.

unvote, vote DJ

[Shadow Knight]

Holy crap. With every post they make, Tjoe and DJ just get scummier and scummier.

@Spyre- personally, I think your case on me is bull, but if you really think I'm the best lead, then by all means, vote me. What makes DJ scummy, is the fact that he's blatantly barning you (then jumping across to the Starbuck wagon on a horrible case made by Tjoe).

I'd be happy with a lynch on either of Tjoe or DJ at this point.

[Shadow Knight]

I've stated that you and tjoe are my prime suspects. The fact that you're vote hopping like a frog on a hot plate just makes me more sure of myself.

[Shadow Knight]

Are you *seriously* that thick? I wasn't logged on before that point. Tjoe made his full case which consisted entirely of NOTHING at 4:04AM on Friday. I logged in and posted my thoughts on it this morning at 7:51AM. Before he went to the trouble of spelling out how crappy his case was, I was still voting you for the "if you don't like my vote on you, you should defend yourself against the case made by the guy I'm barning, not point out how scummy my barning him is. and you should *definitely* be voting him, not me as I didn't even add anything to it." Anyone else planning to unload crap in here? Just let me know, I'll bring my hip waders and a clothespin for my nose next time I check back.

[Shadow Knight]

I'm pretty sure without looking that your comment was about the fact that I voted you, but not Spyre. That translates as you believe I should be voting him as opposed to you, does it not?

That would be because there is no case. His entire case was that I wasn't providing content and/or scumhunting. At the time, I posted my top three suspects, Faraday, RossWilliams, and Doombunny. I did a PBPA on Faraday and came to the conclusion that he was more townie than scum. I didn't get a chance to do a PBPA on Ross or Doom as they both turned up dead this morning.

Then, today, I get 2 new leads in Tjoe (who voted for Starbuck, a claimed neighbor with no counter claim and then tried to force a bandwagon based on V/LA claim) and you DJ, who have done nothing at all except barn Spyre. In the interest of not posting 2 walls of text, I'm trying to figure out which of you I want to put the time and effort into building a case on.

[Shadow Knight]

A *better* question is, why aren't YOU posting your own clear concise cases? Oh I'm not going ignore one of you (entirely) I'm going to focus on whichever of you I feel is scummier and not let go until you defend yourself adequately or you're lynched.

[Shadow Knight]

Pardon, that was Spyre who mentioned me attacking him not you as being scummy.

@Spyre- I'm still not sure exactly what you want me to say about day 1. I posted my thoughts on things I had input on. I didn't get the same uber town read on Mordy to start.

I did come up with a question for Tjoe based on my rereading though.

@Tjoe- in light of your attack on Starbuck for the V/LA issue, how do you feel about DJ defending his early lurking with RL issues but then shortly thereafter offering to cross replace into another game? If you're so lurker concious, why didn't you jump all over him for that?

[Shadow Knight]

*That* was your excuse for trying to get someone lynched for a crap reason? To get reactions? How's this for a reaction?

unvote, vote Tjoe

[Shadow Knight]

You have *eleven* items to give out? Is that normal? I've never seen an inventor role in a mini with more than 4 items to give away. I'll make answering the question easier though.

@Tjoe- Are you given a description of each item you can give away including what benefit the recipient gets? Or is it just a list of items that you have to guess what it does?

[Shadow Knight]

unvote

I can't imagine a scum inventor, and I don't think Faraday is scum, so I'm guessing this is legit.

[Shadow Knight]

Now I'm being voted for unvoting a confirmable role? Ok. If that's a scum move, then I am scum all day long.

With Tjoe effectively being a confirmable townie, my next suspect is DJ. There will be a PBPA of him tomorrow. My gut is screaming that Spyre is scum, but I know that's simply because he can't seem to stop attacking me.

[Shadow Knight]

The case on DJ is as follows:

1- his second post of the game is the 3rd vote on boxman. In that post, he basically barns Mordy whose only reason for voting boxman was "let's get things moving." He then tacks on a convoluted case as to why boxman is scummier than doombunny which reads like scum trying to justify a vote.

2- After letting boxman get interrogated by Faraday and others for a page and a half, Dj comes back and asks him to clarify what he means by semi-random. Boxman answers and DJ comes back to say he finds the answer satisfactory (bosman said it was semi random because he didn't actually use a random number generator). Post just feels weird. After dropping a 3rd vote on someone and actually posting reasons why (meaning it wasn't just a bandwagon-y vote), you unvoted after just one question of your own.

3- Disappears for a while, cites school, but pops back in when someone mentions that he's lurking to agree with the case on starbuck and throw some dirt on doombunny.

4- Disappears again until Spyre shows up and votes me. Asks me who I think is scum. Disappears again until Faraday asks him to update his scum list. Says he will update soon. Disappears *again* until animorph Fos's him. Comes back and asks ani to expand on his FOS reasoning and tells doombunny "i'll post when i get the chance. if anyone has questions for me or wants my opinion on something they can address me directly." Which is now kinda funny as I'm pretty sure part of the case against me is that I didn't comment on some things and had to be asked direct questions.

5- Finally shows up again after my wall-o-text and votes.... animorph?

6- after Spyre says that he things either ani or doom is scum, he posts this:

is it an either/or for you? if so, what's the reason? currently ani seems the worse of it, but i certainly agree with the scum read on doom.

Which to me reads: "I think both are scummy but ani is more so."

7- Mordy dips into meta on DJ a bit and asks why he's much lurkier this game than the last game they played together where DJ was town and Mordy was scum. I find the response to be highy interesting. I've bolded the best part.

mostly rl time constraints. also,

i try to play differently in each game to a certain extent to avoid "meta" references. but no, no real particular reason.

things seem to be humming along without me and the quote walls are a bit over the top.

This is a big blip on the scumdar. Meta is meta. I've yet to see anyone reliably change their play *every* game.

ani vote is more or less because of his reaction to my "does someone want to garner my vote?" post.

i don't think i've played scummy, but the fact that he didn't question me on my motives(as you just have) seemed like a scum reaction.

at this point i am seriously considering switching to doombunny as his play just seems consistently "soft". can't think of a better way to describe it, but he seems to be avoiding any sort of conflict.

Again, I bolded the parts that stuck out to me. What townie worries about playing scummy? And ani is scummy because he *didn't* attack you, but I'm scummy because I *did*?

The next bit is just odd because over pages 11 and 12, he seems to throw dirt on ani, doom, and mordy. and post 296 is just wrong. I've never liked tattletales IRL and that post screams scum trying to get a free kill via modkill.

___Thus ends day 1 ____


Day 2 opens with DJ sayint Spyre must be scum due to not being nightkilled and asking Apyre who he thinks is scum.

So far today, DJ has been suspicious of Starbuck, Tjoe, Mordy, and me with this last post that screams barning and blew up my scumdar.

unvote, vote SK

yeah,

what spyrex said

. he's really good at scumhunting. i will be enormously surprised if he survives too many more nights. i don't really get the starbuck/don pairing. she claimed neighbor. theres no reason to be suspicious of that at this point. there are others who are not suspicious of her as well. are they her scumpartners?

The bolding is his reason for voting me. This is the first time he's even mentioned me all day 2, so Spyre must have had an AWESOME case posted, right? Here it is.

So the Neutral Survivor flip means nothing and I get to assume he was telling the truth and we're down a PR from that and last night.

Which also means I was balls out wrong on my call with them. Awesome.

Unvote, Vote: SK

Tjoe seems far too transparent. I'm not buying it.

However, not buying this, still.

Does anyone else see something wrong here??

And everything he's said since then has been barning Spyre. So if I *am* lynched today, he sets up Spyre to be the fallguy tomorrow because I'm betting money that *somehow* the scum will leave Spyre alone tonight.

confirm

vote DJ

[Shadow Knight]

EBWODP- and if no one has noticed, I beg you to go back and look at how often DJ asks others who they think is scum without putting forth his own thoughts. He is scum and if you all can't see that, then we deserve to lose this game.

[Shadow Knight]

Exactly how is it defeatism to post a case on someone you think is scum? The only part of my post that comes *close* to defeatism is the if I get lynched, we deserve to lose bit and that's just a statement of fact. I'm not giving up by any means.

[Shadow Knight]

Because that would create a vote record and scum don't like it when that happens.

[Shadow Knight]

Barning someone is basically posting "what he said" and voting. Its similar to parrotting, which when you repost someone else's case with different wording. Both are scummy as hell because later on, when the case is proven wrong, the barn-er simply dumps suspicion on the person they were barning to avoid being responsible. Scum use this tactic when they see one townie latching onto another.

I'm a bodyguard type role.

I had a brain-fart and thought DJ wasn't voting me yet for some reason.

I'm not using his lurking as a reason to lynch him. I'm pointing out that when he *is* here, he's avoiding responsibility for his actions by touting Spyre's scum-hunting ability. I think that Spyre actually *believes* his case against me. I think DJ is opportunistically egging on a townie who has decided to attack another townie. That is why I'm voting DJ, not Spyre.

[Shadow Knight]

What. Do. You. Want. Me. To. Answer?

Please post a direct question and i will answer it to the best of my ability. Spyre gets to believe his case because HE posted it. You just typed "me too". You are not currently lurking, no. You did have periods of inactivity earlier in the game.

[Shadow Knight]

I don't want to give too much info as I'd rather not be modkilled. Basically, I choose a player, if they are attacked, I sacrifice myself to save them. Last night I chose Spyre because I figured scum would kill him to make the case against me look better.

[Shadow Knight]

I posted how my ability works. I don't know how much I can give away without it being too much. In a normal game, my role would be bodyguard. In this game I'm an undercover cop who is trying to prevent innocent people from dying.