Mini 843- The Fast and the Furious Mafia! (Over-Mod Error)

[MordyS]

/Confirm

[MordyS]

Vote: Starbuck

OMGUS RVS Edition. Also, I vote with love. <3 Katee Sackhoff.

[MordyS]

Ok, let's get things moving.

Unvote
Vote: Boxman

[MordyS]

If it offends you this much to be 4 of 7 on day 1, I'd be happy to unvote.

Totally scummy. Since when is someone being offended a good reason to unvote? Scum can be offended too. Looks to me like Kodamma realized that jumping on a bandwagon could draw attention to him, and like all good scumsters, he doesn't like the spotlight on him. Instant top of my scum-list.

Unvote
Vote: Kodamma

[MordyS]

Moreover:

I found Boxman's reaction to be strong and I was not pushing for a player to feel threatened this early in day 1

Strikes me as scummy as well. Why not push a player to feel threatened this early in day 1? Either you're trying to be a nice-guy and buddy up, or, again, you don't want attention to come back your way.

[MordyS]

Reread Starbuck. I actually started the bandwagon, and I did so to get movement in the game. DJ jumped in after me, and his reason is totally inane. I don't blame him for it, I assume at the moment he also jumped in to get discussion started. But his reason is totally ridiculous.

[MordyS]

during rvs, players "randomly" vote other players, however, the "randomness" of many votes is extremely questionable thus prompting scum players to overcompensate in making absolutely sure that their vote is interpreted as in fact, "random". this is clearly what has happened here and boxman should be lynched forthwith.

I believe that DJ made this argument in bad-faith, or in good humor. Look at the, "he scores points for originality," for why he doesn't apply the line of reasoning across the board. He's essentially making a 'thou doth protest too much' argument, but of course, Boxman wasn't protesting too much in his random vote, and many townies have historically explicitly called their RVS vote a random one.

I'm making the problem in DJ's vote against Boxman explicit not because I necessarily believe it was scummy on DJ's part. I think it was great, and helped us get out of the RVS. I'm bringing it up because Starbuck seems to think this was an example of a good argument and a good reason to vote. It is self-evidently not, which means Starbuck is either a) Scum, or b) Making a poor argument.

FOS: Starbuck

Mod: I fixed your bold tags.

[MordyS]

Actually I did give a reason, Starbuck. I said let's get this thing started. I may not have spelled it out, but that's a reason and, IMHO, a perfectly good one.

[MordyS]

Also;

MordyS and Kodamma jumped on for no reason other than "who can resist a wagon!".

Then;

I know that you started it and I did just read it, so please don't tell me to re-read.

Is inconsistent, Starbuck. Either I jumped onto a bandwagon for no reason other than who can resist a wagon, or I started it. Not both.

[MordyS]

Is that why you believe I FOS'd you, Starbuck? I FOS'd you because you gave a pretty poor reading of what happened. Since that poor reading could've been an intentional scum tactic, I sent out an FOS. Since it could've just been a poor reading I didn't vote for you.

[MordyS]

I'm not trying to "push" that my reading it the only correct one. I'm pushing that your comment,

MordyS and Kodamma jumped on for no reason other than "who can resist a wagon!"

is explicitly false. I don't see a difference of interpretation here.

[MordyS]

And the point of the game, for the record, isn't to take in different points of view. It's to lynch scum. I'm being slightly disingenuous here, since I know what you mean; you mean, I presume, that taking in different points of view can help lynch scum. But in this case, your argument - that I was hopping on a bandwagon and not starting one - isn't a different point of view and certainly won't help me lynch any scum.

[MordyS]

I'm still waiting to hear any response from Kodamma, who appears temporarily MIA?

[MordyS]

Convincing enough for me.

Unvote

Please elaborate, tho, on why you think Faraday is "pure?"

[MordyS]

I'm not saying that Faraday is "pure", merely that his intentions thus far seem pure. He does not seem to be promoting an agenda in any specific direction, merely is helping others along by providing a valid counterpoint.

This isn't necessarily a good thing, Kodamma. It's a common scum tactic to not try to promote any agenda, try not to ruffle any feathers (as Faraday himself pointed out), and hope to slide under anyone's suspicion. I'd rather see someone with a pushy agenda who lays it all out there.

Mordy I have a hard time seeing much to cause you to unvote in Kodamma's last post, what in particular satisfied you enough to unvote.

Only because you're reading too much into my original case. He was the scummiest of any so far, but his unvote was super scummy and I buy his explanation for unvoting. It seems reasonable and logical that his explanation of the narrative is accurate.

I don't like this at all. Seems like an excuse to go lurker hunting (not in and of itself a bad thing fwiw) and excusing scummy behaviour if people are active. I realise that's probably an oversimplification of what you're trying to say, but still this rubs me the wrong way.

I don't want to speak for someone else, but "low content posting" is not the same thing as lurking at all. They are similar tactics (in that they both try to produce very little noise), but not the same thing. And I don't see him pushing for lurker hunting. I will say, though, that his comment - as pragmatic as it might be - didn't strike me as particularly pro-Town. It sounded defeatist and seemed to be pushing for lax scum-hunting on the first day (which is definitely anti-town). As I understand it, Town's job is to push hard to find scum on the first day, and then lynch whoever strikes them as the likeliest scum (even if the information behind that lynch will be weaker than the information given on Day Two). You can maximize your odds, even on Day One. I don't think anyone should be throwing in the towel early.

Also, this:

It has also been my experience that most scum spend Day 1 hanging back and making low content posts to let the town deal with themselves.

In the middle of a long post, struck me as a tad opportunistic. As though he were saying, "Scum tend to hang back and make short posts on Day 1... but check out my long post. Clearly I'm not scum." Not a huge tell, but it caught my attention.

[MordyS]

It actually caught my eye too. I think it's because something about proffering advice to scum rubs me the wrong way. I don't think that was the point (it seemed like more of a rhetorical flourish to make a more passionate argument), but it was still there.

[MordyS]

Just read Faraday in iso. I have a town read on him. Some good arguments, some basic scum-hunting. Nothing suspicious that jumps out at me (though nothing 100% vindicating). I'd say he's on my backburner if anything at the moment. Not my #1 choice for today's lynch (that goes to, in order, TMJ, Starbuck and assorted lurkers -- TMJ for what seems to me to be a very low-impact, bandwagony style of play, Starbuck for her poor arguments earlier and her subsequent disappearance from the thread when we got into a discussion over those arguments, and then the assorted lurkers who, after enough games of dealing with this crap, I'm not even paying attention to anymore. I'll let someone else identify them.)

[MordyS]

(Addendum: Just realized one of those lurkers is being replaced, so scratch that. It looks like everyone else is participating?)

[MordyS]

Also on the quick bandwagon.

I'm starting to feel like I'm talking into the wind here, but I'll try again: I started the bandwagon, and I explained why I started it. I know, you felt personally hurt that people bandwagoned on you for non-personal reasons (ie: I didn't find you personally suspicious at all), but you can't let that color your reactions. Looking over your reads I'm getting a scum read off you just because some of them (like doombunny) make you look like scum. But I suspect you're not scum, just really touchy townie. And that won't play.

[MordyS]

I don't buy Starbuck's case on RossWilliam. There's no evidence, or even indication of scum-behavior. The best she rises to is: You don't seem to be scum-hunting on your own. But the worst is just insinuations and interpretations:

It almost seems like an overreaction without anyone actually attacking you.

Then once you are called out on it, you reply with post 114. I really don't feel that it is genuine. You seem to just be skirting along on the backs of everyone else's cases and I do not like it.

I think Starbuck avoided commenting as long as possible, and then, when she had to contribute, offered some lackluster readings and some scummy scum-hunting (ie: Manufacturing scuminess where it doesn't appear to be). I'm not going to claim RossWilliam is participating as much as he could be, but that goes for a couple people. Moreso, she ironically goes after him for piggybacking in post 105, when it contains the much more infamous "giving aid and comfort (and advice) to scummies" controversy. Also, I found 114 genuine. I can't imagine a scum-ster would ACTUALLY give advice to scum. That's beyond ridiculous. No scum is that stupid.

So without further-ado, I give you scum:

Vote: Starbuck

[MordyS]

(Not to mention that she called me scummy, and left her vote on me, until it became evident to everyone involved that her readings on me were poor at best, and totally stretching the truth at worst. Halving her losses, she unvotes me and finds a new target. I feel pretty confident that she's scummy.)

[MordyS]

You are really holding the fact that I was delayed on replying because I'm in the military against me?

Yes. I hate to do so, but I've seen people use surgeries and deaths in the family as excuses to avoid culpability as scum. As far as I'm concerned, out-of-game excuses, unless accompanied by a V/LA, need to be ignored. If I didn't go after someone because they had a valid out-of-game excuse, scum could just start producing excuses whenever they needed to lurk. I'm sorry if you've got stuff going on that precludes you from playing as often as you'd like, but I can't take that as an alibi for scumity.

You give scum? Lawl, I love when people are wrong.

I love when scum don't respond to my accusations (you still haven't dealt with the reasons why your case on me was a poor and manufactured reading, and now have totally ignored that I'm calling you out on your bad RossWilliam case). If I'm wrong, defend yourself.

[MordyS]

I don't like this, while it is true that she should have put a V/LA (if she knew she was going to be gone). People have their reasons to be gone. Now could you please explain your 2 day absence between post 107 and 131 or I may have to lynch you.

I don't know how to read this comment of yours. So you think that as long as a legitimate excuse is given, no one should ever be taken to task for disappearing? What if someone strings together "legitimate excuses" throughout an entire game? What if the legitimate excuse comes up whenever they're under pressure? Not to mention that she included in her comment that she shouldn't have to explain where she's been. She's right that she doesn't, but I don't have to respect her attempts to legitimize her absence. She disappeared from the game immediately after I put pressure on her, and I still have yet, even with her return, to see her deal with that pressure at all.

[MordyS]

I'm sorry, the new question for everyone that FoSed kodamma is Do you think animorph is scummy for what kodamma did? Please explain if you can.

Is this question intentionally inane, or are you scum trying to look active with poor postings?

Either way, I'll treat the question seriously, even tho it doesn't deserve to be treated that way: If Kodamma did something scummy, then the suspicion carries over to the new player. If the new player acts in a way that suggests Kodamma was merely a poor town player, then it might mediate that suspicion. But why would a replacement remove any suspicion from the original player (and the role that they are playing)? It might be harder to pin down an accusation on the new player (since they can always plead ignorance and it's a hard plea to analyze), but it doesn't mean that the suspicion just vanishes. Who has ever heard of such a thing?

[MordyS]

That word "misrepresentation" is being tossed around quite a bit, I think the correct word might be "misinterpretation".

Outside the fact that this is do-nothing fluff, I'm not sure what to make of Starbuck's comment. I just searched the entire thread and before this post, "misrepresentation" was only used once. I don't know who is tossing is around. Is this a scum-slip, or just poor game-reading?

[MordyS]

Pretty sure I haven't made any ad hominem argument against you, Starbuck. But if you feel I have, please bring it up explicitly.

[MordyS]

Just read Faraday in iso. I have a town read on him. Some good arguments, some basic scum-hunting. Nothing suspicious that jumps out at me (though nothing 100% vindicating). I'd say he's on my backburner if anything at the moment. Not my #1 choice for today's lynch

@MordyS: In post 131, you state that you get a town read from Faraday, but then mention that he's on your backburner/he isn't your number one choice for a lynch. I may be reading too much into it, but is this suggesting that you may have other thoughts about Faraday possibly being scum? I just thought it was odd that if you got a town read from him, why would you need to then state that he wasn't a lynch candidate you know... I'm just interested in further seeing what you think about him. Again I think I'm reading too much, but rereading the thread (from my last post) this is the first thing that stood out.

No. I have a town read on him, like I said. But as I have no idea where his loyalties truly lie, that doesn't mean he's beyond suspicion. Everyone in this game is currently under suspicion and the question is just by degree. At this point, there are people I find far more suspicious and think make more valid lynch candidates on Day One. (If you're asking what little suspicion I have of him at this point, it's really that I would like to see more scum-hunting from him. But on that note; I've never seen an infallibly perfect townie. Imperfection and suspicion comes with the territory.)

@MordyS: In your post 151, I don't necessarily agree with everything you say in there; I saw the same things about Ross. While they're not necessarily scumtells/scummy behavior, it's something that stood out and seemed very off to me. Albeit, to me it didn't warrant a vote, I can see what Starbuck is trying to say there. It stands out to me that you dismiss everything she said though. I don't exactly like your next post either; it seems like you are trying to manufacture scumminess as well by creating intentions behind Starbuck's actions, especially in light of her clarifications in the next post.

I feel fairly certain from the evidence so far shown that Starbuck is scum (and every moment that elapses without her addressing my concerns increases that suspicion). So I'll admit, at this point, every little thing she does is likely to be scrutinized by me for scum content. I'd only like to remind you that my initial suspicions were sparked before any tunneling had occurred, and that I'm open-minded enough that if she produced a defense, I'd hear it out and possibly change my mind. But I can't help notice every little scummy thing she says because I'm predisposed at this point to think that she is scummy.

Also, on that note, I may post once or twice over the next three days if I'm able, but there's a Jewish holiday (Rosh haShana) that will likely limit my posting. So consider this an informal

V/LA

until Monday.

[MordyS]

Back! (Until the next holiday. They come rapid-fire this time of year.) Vroom, vroom.

DJ, you're definitely lurking a lot more this game than the last one we played together (where you were town and IIRC, I was scum). Any particular reason why?

Also, sympathetic to the notion of skimming. I read through [most] of those super long posts, but I'd hate to do it again. I know people get attacked for not being verbose enough, but I'd prefer some rapid-fire, quick arguments. Also, after rereading the thread, I'm off Starbuck as scum. Poor town, I'd say (sorry, Starbuck). But I'm not really getting a super strong scum reading. I reserve the right to change my mind again.

Unvote

[MordyS]

I agree with DJ that Doombunny looks pretty suspicious with his bandwagoning/sucking up, but if he's pushing for a Ani lynch, that mitigates some of that (since putting yourself out for a lynch is always going to alienate someone, I think). But I'm not sure if he's actually pushing for a lynch -- he's kinda just pussyfooting around a claim. But what the hell. I thought Kodamma was scummy, and Ani hasn't eliminated that.

Vote: Animorpherv1

[MordyS]

Also, I would like you to claim soon (at L-1 if not now)

This is an old story, but why exactly do you want him to claim? His options are:

1) He's a normal townie, thus: He claims Townie.
2) He's a scum, thus: He claims Townie.
3) He's a special townie, thus: He claims Special Townie and we lose a special townie to a nightkill.

So let's assume he's claimed townie and skip the claiming segment. Forcing a claim never helps the Town, since the two options to claim are Townie or Special Townie. The first one tells us nothing and the second one puts us in a weaker position.

Question, Doombunny: Why do you want him to claim? What are you hoping to divine from such information?

[MordyS]

Misread this:

An example of a Vanilla Townie role PM, which no one will be receiving is something like this:

to jumble the "which no one will be receiving part." Oh well. Still don't see what forcing a claim will gain us. And:

I think people want him to claim because that's what normally happens at L-1 in most games.

He isn't just reaching L-1 tho. He's being pushed towards L-1 by someone who doesn't necessarily want to lynch him, but does want to force a claim. It's one thing if a claim is diverting a natural lynch. It's another to just force claims hoping that something will shake loose.

[MordyS]

Unvote

Vote: Doombunny

[MordyS]

do not comment about your role PM flavor

Does this mean any kind of claiming is forbidden?

[MordyS]

ani should be dead. nameclaiming ius against the rules. read post 5.

Rule 8, I think? Rule 5 is:

5)Night Deadlines: Night choices need to be in within 72 hours. If more time is needed, please let me know and I may extend the deadline a day. If Nigh choices are not submitted, you just lose your action for that night; I do not random your choice for you.

Rule 8 is:

8)Quoting the Mod: DO NOT post anything inside the thread that I tell you through PM or you will be mod-killed. This means do not quote your role PM, do not comment about your role PM flavor, and do not quote any night action results. A general rule to go by: if I said something you feel should be posted in thread, ask me first!

[MordyS]

Oh sorry. You said Post 5. I need to stop reading this thread while exhausted.

[MordyS]

Vote: Starbuck

Thought she was scum before. Coming into Day Two with a classic scum-tell only helps matters. Starting to think DJ is scum too.

[MordyS]

I think it's a pretty huge coincidence that Starbuck's partner who stood her up last night (and is, therefore, the only person who could verify or debunk her story) also happened to be a night lynch.

[MordyS]

How exactly is she close to confirmed? Her story is totally unverified.

[MordyS]

[quote=DJ"]the existence of one neighbor means the existence of another. a counterclaim debunks her story and we have none.[/quote]

Clearly I'm missing something. She claimed she had a neighbor AND that he was lynched. How could there possibly be a counterclaim?

[MordyS]

Oh crap. I didn't realize the Mod had verified neighbor. When we started getting off on the flavor tangent, and whether neutral survivor was a confirmation, I totally lost sight of the role reveals.

Unvote

[MordyS]

To: Boxman, Jer

Eh. It was a reading error. And yes, I kept trying to lynch Starbuck because I found her suspicious. News flash: Mafia scum don't get bonus points for forcing lynches on specific players. My tunneling on Starbuck is a null tell at best. But I'm not going to write hundreds of words in defense of a reading error. That's all it was. Not much more I can offer in way of defense.

[MordyS]

Yesterday he stuck with voting SB for pages until somebody called him on it, and today he did basically the same thing.

Not actually what happened yesterday. I unvoted SB when her own post convinced me she wasn't scum. But good reading comprehension. :/

[MordyS]

Ok, at the moment I'm split. On one hand, SK's #355 sounds scummy to me. It's doesn't deliver a lot of content, and really makes a pedantic argument. Add that to his super long PBP where he doesn't find a scum but clears a guy as Townie, and I'm a little suspicious. I'd love to hear more about why DJ and SpryeX find him suspicious. As far as DJ; Every day he posts like that I get more and more suspicious. Last game I played with him he was a much more active scumhunter. Here he's completely taken a backseat (to someone who seems townie at least, but way to completely duck any responsibility for your vote). SpryeX: Do you find it scummy that DJ just wagoned on your vote without any contribution of his own? I do. Finally, Tjoe has sounded scummy from Day One, but I haven't been able to figure out whether that's a language/tone thing, or actual scumminess.

And yes, I've tunneled on Starbuck. I think she's very scummy, but like SK pointed out, she's the closest thing we have to a confirm right now. If she's scum and she finagled a good claim, I feel like there's not much I can do.

That said, 2 Neighbors usually does include a scum, but we can't assume that.

Is this so? If it is, please elaborate since it will clearly change my strategy and I'll go back to looking at Starbuck. Particularly the "usually" part. Do you have evidence for this? Is it just in your experience? Or are you just spouting off? (And if it is usually so, than why would you be suspicious of me for going after Starbuck? Wouldn't I be following the intelligent course of action?) Actually, I think Boxman's entire quote/vote here is suspicious:

1) If one half of a neighbor pair is usually scum, then you should be voting for Starbuck. You should certainly not be attacking me for doing that.
2) I actually UNVOTED Starbuck when you made this comment, which makes you late at best, and disingenuous at worst.

Vote: Boxman

[MordyS]

Actually, if one neighbor is "usually" scum, then we CAN assume that is likely. Probabilities are a good play any day. And I don't know if neighbors are usually scum or not. I'd love for Boxman to explain himself. Also, if you reread, you'll see that I was quoting SK who said she's as close a thing we have to a confirm. And I believe some other players (DJ included) have mirrored that argument. So there are a number of people who believe she's a confirm.

[MordyS]

I've never seen a "neighbor" before, so I was taking the general consensus into account. It seemed like people agreed that she was a confirmed townie. Now some disagreement is emerging. Are you of the opinion, Jere, that she isn't a confirmed townie?

[MordyS]

Uh, so it is just me, or is DJ acting super scummy with every post?

[MordyS]

I don't know about siblings/lovers either.

V/LA until at least Monday. (Another holiday.)

[MordyS]

Back. So, let's see one of these items? That seems the obvious place to go.

[MordyS]

He can't stall long enough to take the heat off, and if he comes back and can't explain himself, I'd be happy to pull the trigger on the inventor.

[MordyS]

Just read Boxman + SK both in isolation. Boxman in iso actually made me feel better about my vote. He's contributed very little, and his leads tend to be either metagaming stuff (like on Starbuck) or other non-content posts (look at how quick he jumps targets too -- it's like he's taking special care to stay off people's radars).

[MordyS]

Mordy had been giving me pretty solid vibes early on but thats faded a bit. His last post may have, in fact, a true scum slip - "I'd be happy to pull the trigger on

the

inventor."

lol. The

the

was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek/ironic. Kinda teasing him for his claim which, at the time, I was skeptical of.

Btw, I feel good about Faraday. If Tjoe is telling the truth (and I believe he is after Faraday's confirm), if Faraday was scum, he would benefit to conceal his acquisition of the item. Since he's the only one who got one, if he remained silent about it, Tjoe would've been a quick lynch. He spoke up though, which stayed the Tjoe lynch, which suggests he's townie. I could be wrong on this read - I'm typing it up in the middle of class - but it looks ironclad to me.

[MordyS]

It's late now, but I'll see who's more suspicious tomorrow.

Scummy. And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it this game where someone said, "Don't comment about how you'll comment later. Just comment later?"

[MordyS]

Yeah, I haven't had any scum slips. But thx for playing.

[MordyS]

He means that you're a confirmed neighbor. Your neighbor was nightkilled. It wouldn't make sense for you to kill your own neighbor, when the alternative (killing someone else), would keep more attention off you and your role.

[MordyS]

(Not to mention, sorry for the doublepost, that killing your neighbor crippled one of your abilities. It would be a pretty ballsy scum move to cripple yourself just to make yourself look townie through the neighbor confirmation.)

[MordyS]

Presumably nightkilling your neighbor, no matter what the particulars of your ability, cripples that ability. I don't "trust her" to tell the truth on their tracker ability, but I believe that they were actually neighbors.

[MordyS]

V/LA, hopefully for the last time for a bit, till next Monday. Last holiday of the season.

(SK, I buy your case on DJ. You illuminated a lot of stuff that's been bothering me. I'm curious what other people think of the case.)

[MordyS]

I find DJ incredibly scummy, and I think that SpyreX, whom I otherwise have a town read on, has just been bamboozled by DJ following him around like a puppy. That said, I'm still not positive he's the most valuable lynch target for today. And even if I think SpryeX is confused, I still put a little stock in his read. So, before I change my vote, a couple questions:

1) Starbuck, why are you still voting for TMJ? Have you reevaluated his case since his claim?
2) Faraday, do you find SK scummy enough to vote for for today?
3) DJ, why do you sound so scummy? Is it intentional? I hate to bring up meta again, but this style of playing doesn't strike me as "varied," it strikes me as scum.

[MordyS]

Because that would create a vote record and scum don't like it when that happens.

This is bothering me. Faraday's comment makes sense, but it sounds like SK is lying about where DJ's vote is. Not to mention, and okay, this is the really bizarre part: The only person currently without a voting record is SK. Why would SK say that when just at the top of this page are TWO vote counts, both showing DJ voting for SK, and both showing SK not voting for anyone? So yeah. Since I don't see this Boxman vote getting any traction, I'm willing to put SK at L-1.

Unvote
Vote: SK

Claim time?

[MordyS]

I'm a bodyguard type role.

How does this differ from a plain doctor role?

[MordyS]

Why would a case against you look good today if someone nightkilled Spyre last night? Didn't Spyre only start going after you today?

[MordyS]

I'm agreeing with whoever said it's unlikely that we have a doctor AND a bodyguard. Not least because it seems unfair to give one person a bit to protect someone else with impunity, and give another person a protection bit that kills them. That said, I'm kinda more inclined to believe we had the doctor.

[MordyS]

EBOWP: SK, any breadcrumbs?

[MordyS]

Yea this is scum stalling. A claim takes a minute. A fakeclaim takes a lifetime.

Eh. Not so sure about this. TMJ took some time to cough up and explain his claim. Also, I'll help you understand DJ. He's hitched his apple wagon to your star. Whether or not this makes him scummy, I leave up to other players. It certainly rubs me the wrong way, though.

[MordyS]

Man, I'm just putting this out there, but it's going to be so humiliating if DJ turns out to be scum.

[MordyS]

"bodyguard" isn't all that good anyway, if his ability works, it still doesn't clear anyone as we have no way of knowing who he's taking the bullet for.

Hadn't considered this, but it's a really good point and makes me much more comfortable about this lynch.

[MordyS]

Not that I'd need a lot of convincing to vote for Starbuck (considering how scummy I found her earlier in the game), I've gotta say that it seems unlikely to me that scum would be defending their partner at L-1. So Starbuck's last minute protest would have been a really poor scum play (unless she thought that she could actually convince people to switch the lynch target).

Although, someone is considerably bussing and I'd like a chance to help figure out who.

I don't know why this is certainly true. It's obviously a possibility, but I don't know why you're so definite about it. ("and I'd like a chance to help figure out who," is a little too ingratiating for my tastes.) Why are you so sure a scum is bussing?

(Also, just pointing out a little inexact speaking on Starbuck's part which may indicate she's a bit flustered at the moment: "I figured. I was wrong. I was figuring he'd either flip scum or flip some other kind of PR." 1) It sounds like you were figuring on two contradictory things in your statement and 2) Since there's no vanilla, of course he was going to flip PR, right?)

[MordyS]

I find MordyS switch onto the wagon weird. In just one post he goes from saying he agrees with what most of SK has said to voting him, pretty much. It's a very sudden turn, and it was at a time when it seemed like Sk was probably going to be lynched.

Also his not knowing this wasn't vanilla is probably something scum are more likely to forget/not know imo.

lol. I'd respond to this, but I'm not sure there's an argument in here. But what the hell. I'll point out the obvious: I can simultaneously agree with SK's argument against DJ while finding SK suspicious himself. This seems so blindingly obvious that I can't believe I have to say it out loud.

As for the second point: Why exactly is my "not knowing this wasn't vanilla" probably something scum are more likely to forget/not know? Please actually answer this question so I know you actually believe your case and aren't just blowing smoke?

[MordyS]

He didn't lead me wrong in the past, so I'm willing to ride with SpyreX again.

Vote: Boxman

[MordyS]

Ok, at the moment I'm split. On one hand, SK's #355 sounds scummy to me. It's doesn't deliver a lot of content, and really makes a pedantic argument. Add that to his super long PBP where he doesn't find a scum but clears a guy as Townie, and I'm a little suspicious. I'd love to hear more about why DJ and SpryeX find him suspicious.

This is bothering me. Faraday's comment makes sense, but it sounds like SK is lying about where DJ's vote is. Not to mention, and okay, this is the really bizarre part: The only person currently without a voting record is SK. Why would SK say that when just at the top of this page are TWO vote counts, both showing DJ voting for SK, and both showing SK not voting for anyone? So yeah. Since I don't see this Boxman vote getting any traction, I'm willing to put SK at L-1.

So at least two posts I wrote explaining why I found SK suspicious.

A town full of poweroles are more likely to be aware that everyone else is a power role, it's not somethiong that they'relikely to forget. I mean I really don't see how you could forget the town are all power roles, knowing that you, if town are a power role wouldn't it remind you?

This is inane dude, even without taking into account that there are no vanilla Mafia roles either. Plus, the problem wasn't that I forgot. The problem was that I misread the post. So remembering that I had a power role wouldn't remind me it was a game with no vanilla roles.

^^ come on, now. we can't all be don_johnson.

Fair enough. Just consider all the posting I did about Boxman yesterday to apply in full force today. If you need me to repost those arguments, I'd be happy to do it.

[MordyS]

What don't you like exactly?

[MordyS]

Tbh, I like to get ahead of accusations, especially weak-ass ones. I'd hate to be lynched for what appears to me to be awful reasons. I don't feel like I can be vehement enough defending myself. (Especially when there appears to be a couple people, like Faraday and JereIC, who claim to find me suspicious for what appear to be exceedingly poor reasons.)

[MordyS]

I'd love to know if Starbuck intends to do any scumhunting today.

[MordyS]

I hate to do this, but I just reread Boxman, and in light of the SK flip, I'm less certain that he's scum. In particular:

(Sep 13, 2009 2:57 pm) ShadowKnight: Short posts, and very few of them. Would appear to be active lurking. Leaning scum here as well.

This was written long before a consensus had formed on SK. And here:

(Oct 07, 2009 4:30 pm)SK is a whole other story. Aside from his monster post on faraday, which no one is going to read ever, especially since it is a town read, most of SK's posts are short with some content. Honestly, given the choice between Mordy and SK, I think SK looks scummier.

When he wrote this post, only SpyreX had voted for SK. The vote count after Boxman's vote was:

TJoe Min Ja-(2)- Starbuck, don_johnson
DonJohnson-(2)- Tjoe Min Ja, Faraday
Shadow Knight-(2)- SpyerX, Boxman
MordyS-(1)- JereIC
Boxman-(1)- MordyS

This essentially means that if he were looking for a better target than throwing his partner under the bus, he could've easily helped drive a lynch on TMJ or DJ (putting either at 3 votes, instead of putting SK at 2). While it's possible that he predicted SK was going down, and decided to preempt the wagon, it seems more likely that he's clean. I'm unvoting for now (L-1 worries me), tho if Spyre (or one of the other Boxman-voters) can convince me otherwise, I'm swayable. (There is other mitigating evidence against Boxman, but nothing imho as persuasive as what I've just presented in his favor.)

[MordyS]

Oops. EBOWP:

Unvote

[MordyS]

Your case looks very close to the one I just typed up. Take a look at this:

I'm sure I'm about to sound like a broken record here, but I'd like to point something out. Consider this in addition to any argument I've made against Starbuck in the past. I was curious about possible links between Starbuck and SK. Starbuck did a good job of tempering her defense, making it impossible to tell whether she defended SK because she's scum or because she sincerely believed her defense. I wondered, though, how SK may have treated Starbuck over the last day. So I pulled up a bunch of quotes and I'm presenting them as objects of curious interest.

(Oct 03, 2009 7:51 am) Holy crap. With every post they make, Tjoe and DJ just get scummier and scummier.

@Spyre- personally, I think your case on me is bull, but if you really think I'm the best lead, then by all means, vote me. What makes DJ scummy, is the fact that he's blatantly barning you (then jumping across to the Starbuck wagon on a horrible case made by Tjoe).

Makes me feel much better about DJ and Tjoe in hindsight. Also, the first time he ever mentions Starbuck (outside his huge wall of text defense on Faraday). Basically he attacks DJ for joining a Starbuck wagon. Not defending Starbuck explicitly, but attacking DJ. Possibly a good way to protect a partner without making it explicit. (Quick sidenote: I feel good about Faraday in light of the SK lynch. I don't think the dumbest scum writes a million word post trying to clear their partner.) Here's a bit of a wall of text of quotes where SK basically does the same thing over and over: Attempt to defend Starbuck from a wagon, not by defending her explicitly (which might draw a connection between them), but by attacking the people on her wagon (basically TJ, DJ, and myself).

(Oct 03, 2009 5:14 pm) Then, today, I get 2 new leads in Tjoe (who voted for Starbuck, a claimed neighbor with no counter claim and then tried to force a bandwagon based on V/LA claim) and you DJ, who have done nothing at all except barn Spyre. In the interest of not posting 2 walls of text, I'm trying to figure out which of you I want to put the time and effort into building a case on.

(Oct 03, 2009 5:54 pm) @Tjoe- in light of your attack on Starbuck for the V/LA issue, how do you feel about DJ defending his early lurking with RL issues but then shortly thereafter offering to cross replace into another game? If you're so lurker concious, why didn't you jump all over him for that?

(Oct 08, 2009 9:15 pm, re: His Case on DJ) 3- Disappears for a while, cites school, but pops back in when someone mentions that he's lurking to agree with the case on starbuck and throw some dirt on doombunny.

I look at the list of people left and here's what I come up with:

Knights of Cydonia/Tjoe: Verified at inventor by two players (Faraday, JereIC), also attacked by SK.
Faraday: Got a townie feeling off him earlier. Some of that shine has rubbed off, but looking back at SK's huge bizarre defense post on him, I feel in my gut that he's town.
SpyerX: Lead the wagon on SK, feels very town to me.
Boxman: Read my explanation above for why I believe he's town.
DJ: Haven't liked his posts at all, but after seeing SK's attacks on me, I'm feeling like he might be town.
JereIC: My second most scummy target. His lurking and general gameplay has given me a general scum feeling, but I don't have an explicit read on him yet.
Starbuck: My target for today. I'm willing to hear whether my case is totally wrong/misguided, but she's been giving me bad impressions all day, and I can't shake this feeling that she's scum.

[bold]Vote: Starbuck[/bold]

[MordyS]

No, but I'll mention the fact that you were building a case in Notepad more than an hour ago and came back with a one sentence about DJ's wagoning (which has already been discussing w/r/t to other lynches).

[MordyS]

Doesn't matter to what?

[MordyS]

A weird thing here. In his last post before being nightkilled, Doombunny9 writes:

I will still be watching you however but right now I will start focusing on other people especially Ross, Starbuck (both of witch haven't been posting lately) and Shadow.

If Doombunny9 didn't think Starbuck was clear even though they were neighbors and he was town, clearly we shouldn't as well. (Kinda embarrassed I didn't notice this yesterday, actually.)

[MordyS]

EBWOP: I messed up the tags earlier, so to make it official-official:

Vote: Starbuck

[MordyS]

Starbuck, if you're really not scum, please answer the following few questions:

1) If you believe that DJ is scum, how do you explain SK's numerous attacks upon him? Do you believe SK was trying to bus DJ, but then in an ironic twist DJ bused SK?

2) Do you really believe DJ's vote on SK was a bus? Take a look at his voting. He really jumped on with SpyreX, which, while that may rub me the wrong way, doesn't have the smell of a bus in the least.

3) When SK was under attack, he began to attack DJ vehemently. Let's pretend they were both scum. Does that really make sense as a good strategy? Isn't it a bit suspicious that when you're under attack, you employ the exact same strategy?

I find your case against DJ is very weak, and, to quote DJ, it sounds a lot like,

spot on for a textbook "desperate scum trying to lynch anyone but myself" thing.

[MordyS]

You can answer my questions.

[MordyS]

I'll say this, Starbuck. I've never played on a different game with you, but if you are in fact Town, you've played a very poor game here. You're certainly not pro-Town, no matter what your alignment may happen to be. You've done no scum-hunting, and you've made yourself very suspicious.

For example, you wrote above:

So what's the point now of me doing all the extra work to answer questions when you are just gonna lynch me and FLIP TOWN anyways?

Let's say you're Town. If you can help us secure a victory, you'll get a win even if you're lynched right now. A Town player is interested in a Town win more than they're interested in their personal survival. So why not do all the extra work to answer questions? Any information you give us now will help for tomorrow, whether or not you survive.

[MordyS]

I find DJ very suspicious. I've found him suspicious for awhile. But look at the three questions I posed to you. They all assuage his suspicion at this particular time. How do you explain that? How do you explain a scenario where DJ and SK are both scum?

[MordyS]

So I'm lying in bed, trying to sleep, and something occurs to me. Some questions occur to me, to be exact, and I think it's important to ask them, ideally before we wrap up the day. (Btw, before I get to the questions: I think the Starbuck lynch is a good lynch, and I haven't yet been swayed from it.)

Here are the questions:
1. Faraday, you speculated that you were targeted last night but that the scum failed to kill you. Assuming that you and SpyreX don't share the same ability, can we assume that you used the gift that Tjoe gave you to avert your death? (If you don't feel comfortable answering this, feel free to skip because the next two questions are the really important ones.)

2. Having seen SpyreX lead a successful lynch on SK, who turned out to be scum, why did Knight of Cydonia not give his next invention to him, but rather to JereIC -- a rather dubious figure at best? Not only that, but since he claimed that he gave an invention to JereIC, we haven't heard from JereIC in the thread at all.

3. What is going on with this inventor bit? I don't remember the exact number, but we were told that basically the inventor has more inventions than there are going to be days in this game. Can he gave away more than one a night? Has he already given away more than two? What invention does JereIC have? Is it something we can use to verify scum?

Ok. Back to trying to fall back asleep.

[MordyS]

(EBWOP: Obv we heard JereIC confirm that he got it, but last we heard, he hadn't even been able to open it yet. Ok. Sleep. For real this time.)

[MordyS]

Ok, just noticed this and figured it should be in the thread before the hammer comes down:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12532

Not sure the protocol on this kind of meta, but it absolutely seems germane.

[MordyS]

I'm having another crappy day at work, so I'm not going to be able to read everything right now. That said, my gut says to stay away from a bandwagon started by MordyS, and not to reveal the invention I got.

Everyone please hold on the lynch until Jere contributes. He's my second lynch candidate for today and this smells like scum all over it. Instead of "staying away" from my bandwagon, how about you evaluate the bandwagon yourself and tell us what you find problematic with it. Not committing to a lynch (and for no good reason) makes me instantly want to lynch you. It sounds like you're trying to avoid culpability and that rubs me the wrong way.

[MordyS]

Look, someone posted on that meta,

I remember we lynched you as town in twilight mafia. I remember thinking the way you claimed was scummy in that game. And I think you were sort of angry we were going to lynch you and being like "I can't wait til you jerks see I flip town! I almost want to die now to screw you all." Those kind of comments only make people want to lynch you more, in my experience. Of course, you were right and it's only natural to feel picked on when you're being strung up as town, but still, comments like that speed your death.

I read this and, as someone who wants to win this game, I can't help but second-guess my instincts here. I'm sorry that you feel your meta is unfairly being used here, but until I'm told it's not allowed, I'm not going to ignore possible evidence that exculpates you.

[MordyS]

Ugh. I hate myself for doing this but,

Unvote

At least until we hear something from KoC, JereIC, or I can wrap my head around this Starbuck lynch. For what it's worth, Starbuck, I think you've played scummy, and I'd love to lynch you. But I'm not sure your playing scummy = you being scum at the moment and it certainly can't hurt to have a day to think about it. (And as for those of you I believe aren't scummy, please give your input/opinions/arguments.)

[MordyS]

You're right. I'm just getting flustered by the meta, and I wanted to hear from JereIC before a lynch went down. And thanks for taking a stand on the lynch.

Vote: Starbuck

[MordyS]

(EBWOP: SpyreX was right; DJ was minimizing any responsibility for lynches by just following wagons. Now that's he's pushed for this Starbuck lynch, I think it commits him a bit more than the SK lynch had. I think getting a real voting pattern on him is important, as Starbuck is right about one thing; he's very suspicious.)

[MordyS]

What bothers me about Faraday/JereIC/Knights of Cydonia is that, even when they participate, they're really coasting during this game. It's not townie behavior. There's been almost no scum-hunting or discussion out of them. The whole thing has gotten me very paranoid, and I'm starting to feel like almost anyone could be a good lynch at this point. (I have very few super town reads, and a lot of neutral/wavering-scum reads.)

[MordyS]

I have a day off college tomorrow. That day will be my Mafia day.

Go for it, dude. That's today, correct?

[MordyS]

1. In post 662, you state that, "Starbuck did a good job of tempering her defense, making it impossible to tell whether she defended SK because she's scum or because she sincerely believed her defense." Was it scummy she came to his defense at all, or is that a null tell?

I think it's too WIFOM to call it either way. When read in the broader case it reads as scummy, but on its own I do believe she did an excellent job of distancing herself even while making a defense. So on its own, I think it's just a null tell.

2. At the end of Day 1 (post 244), you said that you thought Starbuck was poor town rather than scummy. However, you started Day 2 saying you thought she was scum and that "Coming into Day Two with a classic scum-tell only helps matters." Besides the scum tell, what changed your mind from late Day 1 to early Day 2?

I don't recall what the exact thing was. I've flipped back and forth on this and I'll speak more about it before.

3. Back to post 662, you also stated that the points you made about SK's subtle defense of her were in addition to points you had made earlier. Does that include what you said in Day 1 before you said you thought she was a poor townie?

In light of broader critiques, things I didn't feel were strong enough grow in importance. Basically stated, one thing may not be enough on its own, but when you accumulate enough evidence - even if each piece is fairly weak - it becomes stronger in accumulation. A fortiori, when you're marrying weak evidence to substantially stronger evidence (such the stuff I think I've uncovered today), it strengthens the case altogether. (I hope this makes sense. If it doesn't, let me know and I'll try to give some examples for how this works.)

4. Did you find something in the thread you linked in 707 (and the post you quoted in 718) that influenced your decision to unvote in 719? If so, what was it, and why had your opinion changed by 723? If not, what did you mean when you said you were "flustered by the meta"?

Yes. What influenced me is her meta that seemed to suggest she's just a bad (or scummy looking) player. It's hard for me to believe that she'd make a meta thread to try and trick us (that seems unethical w/r/t the game), so that might mean it was produced by frustration with this game. In addition, people in that thread noted that when she's town, she sometimes uses some of the arguments she's used in this thread. That's what I meant when I said I was flustered by the meta.

Now a question for you JereIC: Who do you think is scummy? Do you think Starbuck makes a good target for today? If not, why not? Also if not, who is a better scum target for today? Please answer these questions. Asking a bunch of what seems like simple questions can easily be a camouflage tactic to make it look like you were participating today without actually having to take a stake in the action.

[MordyS]

I'm wondering why now that Mordy doesn't really feel this way about DJ anymore.

Are you kidding, Starbuck? For future reference, if you want to know why people find you scummy, look back at comments like this. I've clearly said in the last couple pages that I find DJ scummy, but that I don't find him scummy enough to deal with at the moment. You completely mischaracterize people's positions (not just mine), which gives the impression of scum flailing.

[MordyS]

Why is he not scummy enough to deal with at the moment?

Because you're striking me as way scummier, and he's on board for that. It's a pragmatic decision. As long as he supports crusades against scum, he's useful. And as my major issue with him is his bandwagoning, it doesn't make sense to attack him for doing so when it's useful. Besides, it's not like he's refused to join a wagon yet, so either he's willing to bus every last one of his scum partners, or he's not scum. (Maybe an SK, tho? Who knows. Today is not the day for SK hunting.)

[MordyS]

I'm on board with you, KoC, until you get to the ShadowKnight lynch. It seems outside the realm of possibility to imagine that two scum partners decided to start bussing each other to death. I've never seen a scum bus work that way (since attacking each other would make both of them look bad, and bussing is a strategy to clear one scum by attacking the other, no?).

SK and DJ's fight looks a lot like DJ trying to bus his partner out - SK makes a decent case as scum, DJ one-lines it away, and basically becomes zwet but less entertaining.

I don't get the inside-baseball (who's zwet?), but I also don't buy this read. Dead scum win with scum, just as much as live scum do. I don't believe that DJ starts bussing SK and SK decides his best chance to get out is to attack his partner back. If it were simply distancing that would be one thing, but SK ends up throwing everything at DJ in a last ditch attempt to turn the lynch.

[MordyS]

KoC, can you answer my 753?

Also, is this Zwet guy going to become important to the game? He's now been mentioned twice (once w/r/t DJ and then once w/r/t SpyreX). If he is, can I get an explanation?

[MordyS]

I'm not presenting this as a full case against KoC, but this current attack on DJ worries me. Even though I too find DJ suspicious, KoC is presenting the SK lynch in a very disingenuous manner.

They didn't bus each other to death, though. don_johnson is playing ridiculously, and he bussed considerably harder on SK than SK did on him.
I think if it wasn't for don_johnson's generally poor play, it might have well earned him more brownie points, but the general lack of interaction between the two, plus the way don_johnson's response was done (quote wall with one-line responses) makes me think it might have been SK knowing he was going down, and distancing himself from don_johnson to give don a better chance. Nobody at the time really agreed with SK's case, but it made don_johnson look like a townie being attacked by doomed scum, basically.

In particular, "he bussed considerably harder on SK than SK did on him," and "it might have been SK knowing he was going down, and distancing himself from don_johnson to give don a better chance." I point everyone's attention to the cases SK made on DJ. It begins in full force when SK only had three votes on him (SpyreX, DJ, and Boxman). In post 511, he writes a huge post attacking DJ. Not only does the tone of the post suggest to me that he wasn't just distancing (coupled with the fact that he was only at L-2 at that moment), but his arguments are ones that Starbuck and KoC have relied almost exclusively on for today! I'm not claiming this is a scumtell coincidence, but merely that the substance-free distancing one would expect in an interaction between two busing scum is not present.

If SK wanted toothless arguments against DJ, how can you explain that he picked arguments that you yourself find convincing? For instance, in post 549:

I'm not using his lurking as a reason to lynch him. I'm pointing out that when he *is* here, he's avoiding responsibility for his actions by touting Spyre's scum-hunting ability. I think that Spyre actually *believes* his case against me. I think DJ is opportunistically egging on a townie who has decided to attack another townie. That is why I'm voting DJ, not Spyre.

Or in his October 6th post, WAY before he was at L-1, he immediately starts going after DJ without hesitation. THERE IS NO WAY THIS HAPPENS IF THEY'RE BOTH SCUM:

With Tjoe effectively being a confirmable townie, my next suspect is DJ. There will be a PBPA of him tomorrow. My gut is screaming that Spyre is scum, but I know that's simply because he can't seem to stop attacking me.

It's just inconsistent with everything I know to believe that at L-2, seeing a fellow scum on the wagon, SK decides to defend himself by going after DJ. Especially since he could have avoided being lynched at this point easily. He might not have known this, but I wasn't sold on the wagon until much later, when SpyreX points out the inconsistencies in his role claims and mentions that even if he is bodyguard, we'll never know who he protected if he protects successfully, since that'll kill him (Also, tho I can't remember who, made the excellent case that he's willing to die to protect SpyreX... because he's afraid of SpyreX being left alive and then him dying). His attacks on DJ way predate his bodyguard claim.

EBWODP- and if no one has noticed, I beg you to go back and look at how often DJ asks others who they think is scum without putting forth his own thoughts. He is scum and if you all can't see that, then we deserve to lose this game.

Really? This is distancing?

[MordyS]

EBWOP: Afraid of SpyreX being killed and then him dying -- by lynch. I'll try to find the exact post where that argument was made.

[MordyS]

Here was the quote (apologies for the double-posting), from post 589:

That said, I'm not buying SK's claim. It's not really the BG + Doc thing: I could actually see a setup like that, especially given it's a theme game. However, the last couple of posts make it pretty obvious he's coming up with this role as he posts. He's a bodyguard... who protected SpyreX last night because he didn't want to get lynched (but didn't mind getting killed)... who's really an undercover cop but can't investigate (or can he?)... who's apparently not answering questions anymore. Add my previous unanswered questions about his DJ case and the reasons SpyreX posted, and I've got enough to overcome the indigestion I'm going to feel from joining Mordy and DJ.

Considering that JereIC apparently felt the same way I did, that means way back when this so-called distancing started, both me and JereIC weren't yet on the wagon, or ready to be on the wagon. He could have averted being lynched when he started attacking DJ. I'm saying this was absolutely not distancing.

Also, KoC, could you explain this comment left by your predecessor, Tjoe, in post 472:

considering that I have 11 item (both town and scum will receive)...I think you know the answer

What does he mean that both town and scum will receive? Any idea? (It's something that's been on my mind for awhile, but for obvious reasons, just bubbled up again during this last page or so.)

[MordyS]

w/r/t = with regard to (It's a David Foster Wallace neologism, I believe).

[MordyS]

Jere has a lot more time of silence than I do, and you guys are still giving me shit about my one week of V/LA. So how come all of that is still being held against me, but nothing is/has been said about Jere? That's quite hypocritical.

And you guys say that I was flip flopping?

First, Starbuck, I want to thank you for the reads you've been contributing. I'm a little too tired to give them the time they require, but you're obviously offering cases and making arguments and it's a nice thing to see (even if ahem-maybe it took you till L-1 to start doing it).

The second thing tho is that my case on you is neither that you lurk too much or that you flip-flop. My primary case is found in my iso 75, and has been reinforced by the way you've reacted to the threat of lynching (which I haven't drawn up in an argument, but mostly I've experienced as a gut feeling). I criticized you earlier for lurking (around Day One, I think?), and honestly, just like then, I don't really care about excuses for lurking. The fact is, tho, that you've stopped doing it, so it's a dead issue for me. And, unless I'm forgetting something, I don't think I've attacked you for flip-flopping. So trying to defend yourself against those charges as tho that somehow excuses my more substantial case is going to be ineffective. Even if you prove to me that you've never flip-flopped or lurked, it doesn't get rid of my case. (And it's the kind of thing that sounds scummy to me.)

[MordyS]

I'm essentially a vanilla townie at this moment. I had a one-shot commute which I used the second night. I don't have any abilities anymore.

[MordyS]

I commuted myself. haha. Self-preservation for the win!

[MordyS]

What is a BP?

[MordyS]

Generally, you can leave town once every other night to avoid being lynched. For me, I only got to do that once.

[MordyS]

No way he's a vig. We've only ever seen 2 kills (and the game would be unbalanced with 3 possible kills a night). Especially since it seems like a few of us (myself, DJ) have fairly low defensive power levels. Maybe if it were a one-time vig shot, but he's claimed he at least tried to kill people twice. So you're saying I'm a one-shot commuter, and DJ is claiming a one-shot doctor, Doombunny + Starbuck can track but it takes TWO of them for one power, and another townie has a VIG power? That seems way out of proportion.

[MordyS]

Just theorizing out loud.

DJ, if you protected Faraday N2, claim it - though since you're voting JereIC, I assume you didn't. Otherwise, it is impossible for JereIC to have vigged Faraday N2, because Faraday would be dead.

Ok, this is a strong argument and explains why Faraday would lie about being able to avoid a nightkill. Since the SK's win condition presumably involved killing Faraday (thematically, at least? It certainly wouldn't make sense for the SK's win condition to involve killing everyone since apparently SpyreX is un-nightkillable), Faraday would want him to believe he was unkillable (and probably not his target). I'm guessing the two targets for N2 were me and SpyreX (I used my one-shot ability then).

I also buy DJ's claim. One-shots and limited powers seem to be the game's MO. I'm a bit more confused about SpyreX's un-nightkillability. He's obviously leaving something out since that seems a bit overpowered for this setup and it seems a bit unfair to SK/Scum? I don't know if this is too meta, trying to doubleguess the GM. SpyreX, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to reveal your ability fully (tho we are in the midst of a mass-claim), but is it mediated in some way (like all the other powers seem to be)?

[MordyS]

Well, just waiting for DJ. Then, a quick parse and we grease this pig (like I said I HAVE to operate under the premise that its 8-2-1-1 not 7-3-1-1 for balance although I don't think it changes too much either way).

Can you talk a bit about this? If it's 8-2-11, we're not at LYLO, correct? But if it's at 7-3-1-1, we are?

[MordyS]

Also, JereIC, why would you target Faraday on Night Two? And why after my defense on Boxman (which was completely true -- he was absolutely not scum, even if he was an SK) did you kill him on Night Three?

[MordyS]

Ok, apologies for spamming the thread so much. One last thing for now; a question for DJ.

If DJ is a one-shot doctor, we can assume that Ani was lying, which means he's scum, which suggests that there's only one scum left. (And may also vindicate DJ.) But if Ani wasn't lying, DJ probably isn't a doctor, which means he's probably scum. So I went back through the records to see how DJ felt about Ani after Ani claimed doctor. (My hypothesis: If DJ isn't lying, he would have immediately been skeptical of Ani's claim, even if he didn't want to make the discrepancy explicit.)

Animorpherv1 claimed doctor September 25, 2009 at 3:36pm (iso post 20).

Anyways, I'm Vin. Doctor

But on September 29, 2009, after Animorpherv1 was modlynched:

so animorph may have been scum? that's a bit difficult to fathom here. anyways, i think a reread is in order.

Why would that be difficult to fathom? He claimed your role! If you are really a doctor, you should've believed that he could've been scum.

[MordyS]

That's good enough for me. (God, hope this isn't game over.)

Vote: JereIC

[MordyS]

lolwatyes?

[MordyS]

Haha.

[MordyS]

I'm really proud of that Boxman Defense / Starbuck Offense. Even if it turned out Starbuck was Town, I think stopping the Boxman lynch helped me pseudo-cleared on Townie and nailed down the possibilities for this last day.

[MordyS]

Haha. Guys, I was scared to death the scum pair was DJ-SpyreX, in which case I was reconciled to the fact that I was ridiculously outclassed. Whew. This was seriously a gauntlet. Anyway, I'll have some breakdown in a bit of the game (including some words of potential advice for Starbuck if she wants to hear them). But this was intense. I feel like I just walked through fire. Seriously amazing play kudos to SpyreX.

And thanks everyone! This was my first non-newbie game (my third Mafia game ever!) and it was -- well, at times frustrating -- but totally worth it in the end.

[MordyS]

Hey Starbuck, if your partner had showed up night one, who did you want to track?

[MordyS]

It's not even racist against English knights. It's just a joke about how the word is pronounced in Chaucer-era English. None of the letters are silent, so it sounds like k-nig-it.