Mini 183: Quick and the Dead - Town Wins!

[mathcam]

As an institution, I have corporate immunity to your votes. However, we here at mathcam, inc. wish you good fortune on all of your future endeavors.

I'm intrigued about PB's supposed "talent at dueling"...did he have some kind of an advantage?

Needless to be say, let's be very careful about our dueling? We should also think about instituting some kind of massive dueling strategy...something similar to the vigilante mafia game mith ran. I'll continue to think about this.

Cam

[mathcam]

Obelix, the games often slow down over the weekends...some people only have access at school/work/etc.

A duel could also be staged from what I can see so that one person (predetermined) would win.

???

Cam

[mathcam]

I think I'm against mass claims for now. There may be a time when it's a good idea, but it will probably end up hurting us without giving us much gain in return. Plus, with what MGM has hinted at, we can't really be sure we'll get

anything

out of it.

Okay, I see what you were saying, Shadow. That's a good point. I've been thinking about this, and I'm not sure there's a great way of organizing these things. For example, one kind of easy idea would be: Let's pick someone we know for sure is innocent, say from a cop investigation. We could agree that we go down the line having everyone duel with him and intentionally losing as per the Shadow's suggestion. Unfortunately, this doesn't work...if scum ever have equal numbers, they just win the duel and take a majority, and hence the game. Nonetheless, there may be a way of tweaking things to make it work...for example, if we ever knew like

four

confirmed innocents, we just leave them out of the dueling pool, and the mafia would never get a majority. Unfortunately, getting 4 confirmed innocents is usually not that easy...

Anyway, that's just food for thought.

Zippy, if you have questions that don't pertain to the game, feel free to PM me, the mod, or any of the experienced players with questions.

Cam

[mathcam]

Okay, good to know. That limits our possible strategizing pretty heavily...the only thing that comes to mind now is some kind of a tournament, but I feel like scum would probably slaughter us in that plan. Well, maybe not...gotta think about it.

Cam

[mathcam]

I need to hear Nannok's reponse to SquareKnight's question in post 52 before I invest any more thought into a strategy.

Myopia: I see what you're saying in post 51, but it's also a fairly dangerous set of reasoning. It might be the case that there

is

no great strategy, or it might be the case that I simply miss it. Now, if I proposed a plan that gave the town a 40% chance at winning when it was pretty clear the town could co better than that,

then

I'd be suspicious of me.

As to Mgm, I'm not suspisious of him for the "no mass claims" thing, nor his revelation that his role helped him come to that decision. The jury in my brain is still out on the further arguments that Puzzle posted.

Cam

[mathcam]

I am a named character, and I know for a fact that the setup is not simply "major character or generic role claim."

Nanook:

Can I direct your attention to the question in SquareKnight's post 52? Thanks.

Cam

[mathcam]

Okay, I see what you were saying, Axelrod. I misinterpreted that post.

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, we've definitely run in to a gray area in the theory of mafia ethics...while I'm typically of the opinion that the town should use anything they can to ferret out scum. On the other hand, compromising another game to do isn't really kosher....

I think the best play, from all perspectives, is to have Coron and MGM duel each other, and then we can discuss lynching the loser. So if we, for example, knew for a fact that one of them was scum, we'd be guaranteeing ourselves a scum-kill today. While I don't think we can be that sure in this case, it still seems like our strongest play.

So I third (or whatever) the motion that we have Coron and MGM duel.

Cam

[mathcam]

We haven't started playing mafia yet? Well, figure out exactly when you think we've started playing, and be sure to let us know. Have

you

started playing yet?

I can't tell if Coron's scummy or just plain belligerent, but I still feel like having him duel someone else is probably our best bet.

Cam

[mathcam]

I don't understand what's brought about this massive partial claim crusade this game. I feel like a couple of players are just playing 20 questions with people's roles, and I can't help but think that this is a mafia attempt to appear pro-town while all the while getting a better and better idea of who to kill tonight.

I also am not sure if it's worth claiming if you plan on dueling anyway, Puzzle. I don't really see the MoS suspicioun, and I'm very unsure on Mgm, but Coron and Puzzle are pretty high up there, and Myopia's closing fast.

Cam

[mathcam]

Actually, I have individual figurines of all of you that I've glued to the shells of my pet turtles. I set them on a racetrack and vote for whoever's figurine is furthest ahead, figuring that

must

be a sign of scumminess.

Cam

[mathcam]

Nanook

, I don't think this should be decided by the players in the game. I encourage you to PM some experienced mods and get their opinions.

Sorry, I'll post more content-wise later.

Cam

[mathcam]

I guess there's no point in thinking about content until this is resolved. I think the simplest solution is simply to kill off Puzzle and continue the game...I think this is the only way to preseve game integrity, and only Puzzle is screwed by the deal (sorry Puzzle).

Vote: Puzzle

Cam

[mathcam]

Wow, that was quick, so

FOS: Very Active players

, including, of course, myself. An extra one for MoS for responding so quickly.

Cam

[mathcam]

Did you accidentally click edit instead of quote?

Cam

[mathcam]

Don't worry about it, Shadow. You've just grown a long list of players who have accidentally done that very same thing.

Hmm...bizarre behavior from Coron. This makes me more tempted to think he's pro-town (since scum don't want to risk a 50-50 shot at losing one of their members), but of course, that could just be what he wants me to think.

Cam

[mathcam]

Exasperation like Mgm is showing just doesn't from scum very often, so he's pretty clear in my book, at least for the time being. I'm surprised at how aggressively people are going after him...or maybe I'm missing something. If not, an

FOS: Obelix and Square_Knight.

I think it highly likely that at least one of them is scum, but for now, it's lurker-huntin' time.

Vote: Myopia

.

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, it doesn't look like there's much chance of that...

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, I think that settles it for me. Though obviously possible, it seems less than likely that a role would both be a) more powerful than a generic townie, and b) not a named character from the book. Plus, as obelix points out, simply having a duel gives us townies some information on how this all works.

I second or third or whatever the nomination for a Coron/SquareKnight duel (though I think we should be very cautious of the "lynch whoever loses" plan.)

Cam

[mathcam]

Hm, I clearly meant the "Lynch whoever survives" plan.

Cam

[mathcam]

I agree with obelix. I'm not generic, if I hadn't revealed that yet.

Cam

[mathcam]

Having two townies duel with one dead and the other lynched would be disasterous.

Let's note that I'm speficially denounced the plan of lynching the other.

My decision on SquareKnight is largely dependent on whether or not any other generic roles reveal themselves. For now, I'm slightly skeptical.

Cam

[mathcam]

I agree with _obelix_...let's all get on the same footing here, especially since this information might be important for other reasons.

Vote: Coron

until he claims generic or not.

Cam

[mathcam]

I concur with the first of these two sentences, and my answer to the third depends on his respose ("Sorry guys, I'll catch up" or "Here's my partial claim" or "Screw you guys, I'm not revealing.")

Cam

[mathcam]

I'm not either, but I think I'd rather see a duel. This might only be because I'm anxious to test out this new game feature, but it also lets us get more information before we have to decide what to do today (and doesn't give the mafia a chance to act in-between like lynching would).

Cam

[mathcam]

I guess if

both

refuse, then we don't have much choice. Coron did however indicate a willingness to prove himself...Coron, would you be willing to duel SquareKnight (or, possible, someone else)?

The more I think about it, the more I find Coron's behavior too belligerent to make sense, even for him. I wonder if he has something in his role about disallowing any form of a claim.

Cam

[mathcam]

I'd like Coron to duel SquareKnight. I realize SK's a claimed cop, but being the only generic role is pretty suspicious. On top of the that, it's also pretty clear that we shouldn't just always lay off scum the second they claim cop...otherwise that's all they'll ever do on day one. We have to call them out on it when there's a credible reason to doubt the claim. I think we have that in this case.

Cam

[mathcam]

To put it another way I dont think its strange that the game has at least "some" generic roles and I dont think having a generic role is suspicious enough to risk killing a claimed cop.

Keep in mind that the argument against SK is not that he has a generic role, it's that he has the

only

claimed generic role. So while I agree that the mod might slip generic roles in to the game, I do doubt that he would stick in just one.

As for the metagame comments I dont buy it. If scum all claim cop day 1 then they make themsevles a target for investigation by the actual cops on night 2.

But this is good for them! First of all, every day they can avoid being lynched is good for scum, especially if someone else is lynched instead. Second, in your explanation, they get further rewarded by pulling the cop's investigation away from any of their partners. Third, even if they

do

get investigated that next night, the only way they'll get caught on it is if the real cop comes out...which is

again

good for scum. Finally, it's not like they're a guaranteed lynch either...there's all kind of sanity issues that can be brought up, the fake cop could peg the real cop and stay alive another day, etc.

Cam

[mathcam]

I think Coron's just waiting on enough backers.

In case it's nto clear, I encourage Coron to challenge SK.

Cam

[mathcam]

I think an

FOS: Myopia

is rather in order here. Yes, I was wrong about SquareKnight, and I pushed for the dual. But you're way overplaying that card here...SK had brought suspicion upon himself, and make a (not necessarily his fault) weak cop claim. I think we made the right play. It just turned out to work against us. It really feels like Myopia made his last few posts with the hope that in this situation, he'd be able to play the "Told you so!" card.

Cam

[mathcam]

Its unchallenged fact though that the remaining scum certainly knew that squareknight was innocent.

Really? Since when?

And I'm not accusing of changing your position when the result was coming out...I'm accusing of intentionally taking the position you did beforehand so that

if

SK turned out to be a cop, you were in perfect position to push for the lynches of those who disagreed with you.

Cam

[mathcam]

Oh right, because we have a dead pseudo-SK, and that's almost certainly the only one. Okay, I withdraw my challenge to your claim.

And I agree that something's still fishy about Coron...his post after the dual sure makes it sound like he knew he was going to win. Combined with his eagerness to duel beforehand, I agree that it sounds like he knew he was going to win. I don't know if this is scummy or not, but there's definitely a piece of information that's being witheld.

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, I hope that was just a scum panicking because he was about to be killed and not a pro-town role. If not, then even if I

were

scum, Myopia, that's a pretty bone-headed play, especially if you've got some kind of pro-town role.

Making a mistake as to squareknight doesnt make you scum. But I think attacking me does. When Im town and Im attacked by someone my general view is that they are simply wrong rather than scum. I try to answer their argument without attacking them. You seem to do that to. Here your defence essentially consists of an attack against me.

Let's note that I'm not attacking you just because you're attacking me. People attack me all the time...some times it's scummy and some times it's not. It

is

scummy to me in this case, because I highly suspect that it was your plan to be against the duel so that if things went badly for the town, you could start an easy bandwagon against anyone who had pushed for it.

Nanook

, what

are

the rules on posting between a duel being offered and the resolution of that duel?

Cam

[mathcam]

Yay, I guess. I say we either lynch Coron or do no lynch. I've only recently started wavering about Coron's suspiciousness...it really does seem like he has an edge in dueling, which I kind of doubt the mod would give to scum.

Cam

[mathcam]

*watches tumbleweed blow by*

Cam

[mathcam]

Also, I would like to know why "Mastermind of Sin is gone right now". He supported the duel between Coron and SK too.

I think that he meant "MOS is gone" in the sense that he hadn't posted in over a week.

I don't like the way mathcam and obelix are running the game.

That's just foolish. If more people other than obelix and I (and a couple of others) were paying more attention to this game, it would be impossible for two of us to "run" it. But given your dissatisfaction on this point, why is it that instead of coming back with a collection of ideas on what to do next, your first post

in ten days

consists of two sentences, one of which essentially complaining about your own lack of participation???

FOS: MOS

for that.

Coron, you think there's

another

SK

and

3 mafia? That would put the potential scum total at the start of this game to at least 5 out of 12.

Cam

[mathcam]

Yup, that's why I wrote "potential scum" instead of scum. Regardless of whether or not he was scum at the start of the game, there was the possibility of having 5 scum (out of 12) in the game if there's a mafia group of 3, a regular serial killer, and Puzzle. This seems unlikely to me.

I agree with Mgm on demanding an explanation from Coron. Though I'm not sure I find him the most scummy right now, I'll throw on a

Vote: Coron

until you say

something

to convince me that your unwillingness to reveal anything should be interpreted as pro-town.

Cam

[mathcam]

Shadow, I feel we've mostly revealed whether or not we have a generic role. And it's less that he hasn't revealed anything than the fact that he's pointedly stated a couple of times that he refuses to reveal anything. Why? Because he's scum and doesn't want to get caught? Or because he's town and doesn't want to give anything away? If it's the latter, there should be

something

he could tell us to at least partly assuage our fears.

Cam

[mathcam]

Ditto Shadow and Mgm.

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, you've created an aura of mystery around yourself and your role. If there's a reason for that, say so. If there's anything that will make your utter refusal to reveal anything about your role seem more reasonable, then by all means, speak up. I, for one, am curious as to whether or not you ahve the ability to sway the outcome of a duel.

Cam

[mathcam]

Whoa, really? I'm not so convinced that's a good idea. We're in mid-game right now, a time when our power roles are the most useful. Our cop and vig are dead, and our doc is certainly next if we tell the mafia where they are.

Cam

[mathcam]

There are more of us alive than dead (front post says 7 alive), and it's only day 2! Sounds an awul lot like midgame to me. Plus, your scenario leads to a "bye bye town" only if there's three more scum, all on the same team. That would mean a starting mafia of size 4,

and

an extra SK. Right? Why does everyone seem so paranoid this game?

Cam

[mathcam]

Hm. Okay, 6 alive is a little different. Never mind my last post.

In any case,

Unvote: Coron

. I didn't realize we were so close. I'm all for the claims, then. We could decide on a random order, or force them in order of scumminess.

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, if we're agreed that Coron has to go first, we could let

him

pick the order. It's not like he can pick himself last...

Cam

[mathcam]

I know this may come off as stalling for time, but I want this clarified. Is Coron going to continue who goes when, or do I choose who goes next, or should Coron just order the list and post it right now?

Cam

[mathcam]

Sorry for the delay. I'm a townie.

MGM's already claimed, so I'll got with the Shadow.

Cam

[mathcam]

Hm, that claim really set off the scumometer. In any case, I guess we're just waiting on Obelix now.

Cam

[mathcam]

Scars.

Coron?

Cam

[mathcam]

Have I not already said I will not name claim?!
I thought I made this clear.

Okay, okay. Sheesh.

Anyone here know what characters might be considered, "bad guys"?

I could speculate based on some names of people in the movies ("ratsy" sounds kind of scummy, but I guess so does "scars"), but it would probably be better if someone semi-knowledgeable about the movies spoke up here.

Cam

[mathcam]

Hello?

Well, none of the role claims stuck out as that suspicious. I find out MoS's post 374 pretty scummy sounding, but he has a point about being the only claimed doc in the game. I'm not sure this is enough for me to let him off the hook, though.

Cam

[mathcam]

374 seemed very forced. While I concede that if you're pro-town, you'll probably be killed tonight, this is also a good reason why if

I

were scum, I wouldn't care if you got lynched today, since I knew I could kill you at night. There'd be no sense in me looking all scummy by pushing for the lynching of a doc if I were just going to kill you that night. In any case, I wouldn't even say I'm "pushing" for your lynch...just that something about you isn't sitting right with me, and I don't want to forget about it.

So, is

anyone

left knowledgeable about the movie? Maybe I'll go Netflix it up.

Cam

[mathcam]

Agreed. If nothing else, we'll begin to rid you of this "normal policy."

Cam

[mathcam]

There are times when it might be valuable to town, for instance I can't really defend the standing of my character as a good guy, or as the specific role I was placed at except for research(lazy) and whatever the mod gives me(not garunteed).

If this is the case, say so as a disclaimer before claiming. We may or may not believe you, but hey, coping with roles that are hard to sell as pro-town is part of the game.

Also, it is valuable to me, do you lynch IS for being IS? If not then why would you lynch Coron for being Coron?

Certainly, if he's impeding town process, as you're doing now. Note that we've let you slide pretty far this game maintaining your veil of secrecy, so to claim that we're lynching Coron for being Coron is somewhat excessively melodramatic.

PS- this policy is staying whether you like it or not.

Shadow pretty much nailed this one on the head...if I said "I'm not going to post anything but the letter A from now on, and nothing you can do will change this", then not only would I

expect

people to knock this habit out of me, I also wouldn't be surprised if I stopped being invited to play in games altogether.

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, I guess that makes my next move easier. I had decided that the first to let off of Coron to pursue a different target would get a huge FOS in my book, and the fact that he went after

me

is just icing on the proverbial case.

FOS: Shadow

.

Oh, wait a minute...are you claiming to have killed Zippy, Shadow?

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, I guess that makes my next move easier. I had decided that the first to let off of Coron to pursue a different target would get a huge FOS in my book, and the fact that he went after

me

is just icing on the proverbial cake.

FOS: Shadow

.

Oh, wait a minute...are you claiming to have killed Zippy, Shadow?

Cam

[mathcam]

I take back my FOS, then. Shadow seems pretty cleared.

I say we finish off Coron.

Cam

[mathcam]

I could have sworn...

Vote: Coron

to finish the day.

Cam

[mathcam]

[mathcam]

Yeah, I thought that might be coming. Oh well. Thanks for the game, Nanook!

Cam

[mathcam]

I'm not sure how mathcam survived until the end....

I

always

surive...Mwah ha ha ha ha

Oh right, dead.

Cam