Mini 882: Star Wars: Legacy of the Force Mafia(GAME OVER!)

[Zachrulez]

/confirm

[Zachrulez]

Hey d3x! How's it hanging?

[Zachrulez]

Zach! Things are well, and with you?

Good to see you again, bro!

Same.

Good to see you too!

[Zachrulez]

Oh hey! Alamaster's in this game.

And Alamaster is rattling off total nonsense.

Here, have a vote Alamaster.

Vote: AlamasterGM

[Zachrulez]

Well to be fair Kdub, that's a picture of a bunny ON the snow, not in it.

As a side note, that must be one hell of a chill you got there, having your navel showing like that in such cold weather... haha.

[Zachrulez]

AlGM: I would like you to make sense of your p25 and p36 please. Just what are you talking about? Also, your last 3 posts have been nothing but mean. Having a bad day or something?

I think he's randomly spouting off lines from star wars movies. I'm not sure why.

[Zachrulez]

Any thoughts on the game Almaster?

[Zachrulez]

Any thoughts on the game Almaster?

Not really - has anything relevant actually happened yet?

The quotes were random, btw.

You can make discussion out of the smallest things really.

Like I noticed you didn't vote in RVS. Some reason you didn't feel it necessary to do so?

[Zachrulez]

Short answer is that Almaster interests me. I don't necessarily need to go into why right this second, but I do think there is some value in starting discussion as early as possible, and it's not necessarily important how that is done.

Do you not like a short RVS? Do you want a longer RVS?

[Zachrulez]

Oh also, this wouldn't be because you're also not voting is it?

You can feel free to answer the same question I asked Almaster if you like then.

[Zachrulez]

@Zachrulez-
-6 people are not voting.
-You didn't address my second question.

No I didn't, it was a pretty baseless question considering what I actually asked Almaster.

Yes, other people weren't voting, but as far as I can tell, you and Almaster were the only ones who posted that hadn't voted. I am interested in Almaster largely because I have played with him before and think it's somewhat of a priority for me to get a read on him if he's going to play this game anywhere close to the way he played the last one with me.

Do you not like a short RVS? Do you want a longer RVS?

I have rarely ever seen RVS to be helpful. Often it creates confusion among town, provides scum with excuses to appear active, and provides town and scum with flawed foundations for future crap-logic cases.

Or gives scum an opportunity to sit back and attack the first person who actually tries to start discussion by attacking any little fault they can find in the reasoning. (Yeah, I realize you could also be annoyed at what you perceive as an attack on the way you're approaching the game as well.

However, my thoughts about RVS are irrelevant to my point. You clearly think RVS is helpful.
-Why did you arbitrarily decide the RVS is over?

Did I actually do this? RVS ends when discussion begins, there is no point where it magically ends or where someone decides that it ends. I saw things worth putting forth to discussion and I did that. If I would have never provided any content that you now have the benefit of analyzing, at what point would you have actually felt comfortable moving the game forward?

-Explain why AlmasterGM deserves scrutiny for not voting during your arbitrarily determined RVS period. Specifically, why does he interest you?

Mainly I was doing a consistancy check based on his meta, this would generally be why I was specifically interested in him. I have never played with you before.

--If he interests you due to lack of voting, then what about the other 5 non-voters?

Think I covered this already. Most of them hadn't posted yet I believe. If I'm wrong, whatever. I also explained why Almaster interested me specifically anyway.

--If due to his Star Wars quotes, meta-information, or other non-lack of voting reason, then why mention the lack of voting as a reason?

See I never said it was a reason for voting him. I stated my reason for voting him, and then later noticed a pattern in what he was doing. (Taking quotes from the movies.)

[Zachrulez]

I do think there is some value in starting discussion as early as possible

+1

it's not necessarily important how that is done.

I don't know that I agree with this, though. Would you say that ending the RVS by making a scummy move is ok? If someone does this and then states that this was their reason, should the scummy move be viewed less harshly?

I probably could have conveyed that better. No, it would actually be scummy and worth a vote, but on the up side it would move the game forward as we would be running that player up for their scummy action.

Do you think my move in this particular instance was scummy? Everyone can feel free to answer this question, as it will definitely help the game to take positions.

Unconnected questions- Was your Vote Random? If so, do you still consider it to be Random?

No, it was more arbitrary. I wanted to see how Almaster would react to it so that I could try to get a read on him. It's a weak vote, but I still want to leave it for now as I don't have a better place to put my vote at the moment.

[Zachrulez]

@Zach-

I don't necessarily need to go into why right this second

If your reason was past experience/meta, why didn't you just say that?

I wanted to see how people would react first. That's out the window now that I was forced to explain it before I wanted to, oh well.

[Zachrulez]

Unvote, Vote: JasonT1981

I forgot to bold

I know it wasn't a breadcrumb, I wouldn't have assumed it to be without your convenient explanation right there. I'm asking why you're being so paranoid that you felt you had to explain your first post of the game out of the RVS.

As for your second statement, did you also feel the need to explain you weren't breadcrumbing a couple of posts later in those games as well?

I'm trying to think about what the scum motivation would be for Talbot to do this, but I can't see one. Can you explain it for me?

Also, can you elaborate on whether you have actually caught any scum doing what you are voting Talbot for doing here?

[Zachrulez]

Can you link to that game please?

I never said I voted for Alamaster because he didn't vote in RVS.

[Zachrulez]

No I can't, the forums are clan-related.

Unvote: Vote: Nachomamma8

I can't see a scum motivation for what Jason did, and you can't provide me an example of scum doing this in the course of a game. Perhaps you can see why I have a bit of a problem with that?

Then why are you voting him?

Post 41 is my voting post. The reasoning is in that post, weak as it was.

[Zachrulez]

The goal of scum is to look as protown as possible and avoid being lynched. So, it is to great benefit to the scum to cover up any mistakes they might have and be very careful in making sure that anything they say won't be misconstrued. Saying that he was afraid that there was a real Yoda later would claim and he would get lynched for it; it was a joke made in the RVS, and a very well known one at that. So I just can't see why he felt he needed to cover up his tracks so much.

It's to the town's benefit for him to clear up a potential misunderstanding before it happens.

Scum also generally want to avoid drawing attention to themselves btw.

[Zachrulez]

The goal of scum is to look as protown as possible and avoid being lynched. So, it is to great benefit to the scum to cover up any mistakes they might have and be very careful in making sure that anything they say won't be misconstrued. Saying that he was afraid that there was a real Yoda later would claim and he would get lynched for it; it was a joke made in the RVS, and a very well known one at that. So I just can't see why he felt he needed to cover up his tracks so much.

It's to the town's benefit for him to clear up a potential misunderstanding before it happens.

Scum also generally want to avoid drawing attention to themselves btw.

If that is your belief, then why aren't you voting people who aren't participating and simply staying under the radar?

To make a case for that kind of scummy behavior, I would need more time to establish patterns of activity for players to determine if their lack of activity was motivated by that desire.

Anyway, it's not necissary at the moment. The town can only lynch one player at a time and I find your attack on Jason scummy.

[Zachrulez]

Well thanks Zach for not really replying to my question, but I think you mentioned it somewhere, so I guess it's all good.

The one about where I thought I was starting discussion with Almaster?

Post 48 I believe is when I start asking if he has any thoughts about the game.

You kinda got missed when the page changed over, sorry.

[Zachrulez]

I think Chinaman has insider information and a specific win condition that is different from the town's.

This does concern me a bit, though. I know the connotation is that he has

Scum

insider info, but I can't help but get a bit of a RoleFishing feel to this statement.

Can you elaborate more on this please?

[Zachrulez]

He was talking about how he believes Chinaman has a different win condition. That is not quite the same thing as power role speculation.

[Zachrulez]

What additional information would PRs get at this point in the game?

[Zachrulez]

I'm all for bandwagons on either nacho or china.

[Zachrulez]

The whole breadcrumb thing is just nonsense. I agree with jason here that it's best to avoid a future misunderstanding due to that. It may seem a bit paranoid from him, but still, just that. On the other hand, Nacho and China pushing for it seems odd.

And, look at this:

I'm getting a not so

Jedi

vibe from this post. There are 2 reasons for this.
...

Jedi

are not so cautious IMO. Only the

Sith

would want to elaborate on and cut discussion of something they previously posted.
...

First of all, as far as I know not all town is Jedi. Just from the opening fluff we can deduct that. And second, Sith? Where did you get this? In my role pm there is no mention whatsoever that the threat is from the Siths. In fact, not even the original fluff mentions Siths. So, why did you think the evil guys are Siths?

Guys! A scum slipped and I caught it!

Unvote, vote: Chinaman

Page 5 and reading...

You refer town as jedi, and scum as sith. Obvious enough for me that you slipped.

Moar votes on China, kthnx.

I am fine with moar votes on China.

Unvote, Vote: China

His case on me is total bullshit, and he's just flailing around the weak ol FOS now.

[Zachrulez]

Also feel free to elaborate on how I was rolefishing Chinaman.

[Zachrulez]

Ok, I was trying to get a post in before all that went down.

Why was China modkilled?

[Zachrulez]

Ok, so my brain just exploded...

I guess what we got right now is that Chinaman claimed having some kind of info on Kdub, and was modkilled for revealing it.

Having flipped town, we know that China wasn't full of shit.

[Zachrulez]

I've also come down with an unpleasant cold, so my activity might be a bit spotty over the next few days. Just thought you guys might want to know.

[Zachrulez]

Given Chinaman's flip, I realize I look pretty bad right now, but I will explain what I know and try to sort out what is going on. I had another reason for not claiming when asked, nor do I know exactly what info Chinaman had on me, but I want to explain now before scum have a chance to quickhammer.

I am Luke Skywalker, jedi master. I am a 1-shot NK immune townie. My role PM says (paraphrasing) that I can sense the presence of the dark side of the force, and that there is someone out there who will stop at nothing to ensure my death. This suggests to me that there is either a lyncher in the game whose target is myself (Luke), or that one of the scum's win conditions is to kill Luke.

The fact that China was Mara Jade could explain why he had info on me since Luke is her husband, and I suspect that he might have been told something having to do with whether I was a family member or not, hence him asking for my role name and not my role itself. I really did not want to out myself because I would have revealed myself to whoever it is that wants me dead, but I don't see any other way out of this right now. My 1-shot NK immunity is probably so that the lyncher/scum can't just immediately kill me after finding out who I was. I started to suspect that it might have been Chinaman who wanted me dead, but obviously we know now that isn't the case.

I think that Chinaman was way too quick in trying to push suspicion on me. If I were scum, what info could he have had that would prompt him to vote me after denying his name request for what I felt were good reasons (especially given my role)? There haven't been any nights, so it's not like he could have investigated me or anything. I think any town player in my position would have refused to claim, and the fact that he jumped on me after that was not smart play. I have some previous experience with him, and I have found him to very much be a "shoot from the hip" type of player (d3x can back me up here, Open 144 if anyone is interested) who can be erratic and unpredictable, and I think he overreacted to whatever info he had on me just because of my refusal to claim.

Anyway, that's the info I have. I'll answer any questions people have about my role. As far as suspects, I was looking at Nacho yesterday for his early argument with Jason, but I think the China wagon moved very quickly based on a perceived "slip", and Nacho was not on board. I would take a closer look at the people on the China wagon who had the weakest reasons for voting him, namely cateraction who has done nothing but lurk the entire game. I want to hear more from him and what he thinks of the game so far.

You're not Luke Skywalker.

You can die now, slowly.

Vote: Kdub

[Zachrulez]

Why were you so quick to unvote Snow Bunny?

[Zachrulez]

You're not Luke Skywalker.

And how exactly would you know this? Are you also going to claim to have secret info on me?

Same question to Almaster.

Hahaha. No, I don't have any secret info on you.

I only know that it is impossible for you to be Luke Skywalker.

[Zachrulez]

Just lynch him, he's lying about being Luke Skywalker.

[Zachrulez]

Zach:
Explain please. You are either lying or misinformed. The fact that you are pushing for my lynch without explanation is strange. Do you really expect people to disbelieve me just because you say so?

It's pretty obvious why I don't believe you, but it seems that you want to force as much info out of me as possible.

You can't be Luke Skywalker because I am.

[Zachrulez]

What was the problem with claiming as he wanted? You allegedly have a 1 shot NK immunity with no other powers that are of any real value. So what exactly were you worried about?

[Zachrulez]

Sigh.

1. You sure find it worthwhile to claim now with China dead and unable to verify your claim huh?

2. You've claimed a NK immunity. Convenient. Die nao please.

3. I'm not claiming beyond my role name unless the town demands it.

[Zachrulez]

Oh also, if I am scum kdub, explain how it is optimal play for me to counterclaim to ensure your lynch when I haven't been seriously suspected throughout the course of this game.

[Zachrulez]

Given of course that I would effectively be sacrificing myself as scum for a townie who has no value other than the fact that he has a one shot nk immunity.

[Zachrulez]

I'll go ahead and let you have fun explaining that while I go to bed.

[Zachrulez]

Hey Bogre, would it surprise you to know that Phantom has both posted and contributed more than you have?

Your total contribution to the game can fit on one browser screen and consists of 2 posts. (Not counting the confirmation.)

[Zachrulez]

Why were you so quick to unvote Snow Bunny?

Why were you so quick to unvote Snow Bunny?

This. I don't like S_B's quick unvote at all. Given that Kdub basically claimed VT (plus elaborate backstory), there's zero reason why that should have transpired - seems like a convenient excuse to abandon the bus. Scumbuddies?

@S_B- Why the UnVote? Kdub was L-3, so he was in no real danger of getting Lynched. Did you find his RoleClaim so convincing? Why not wait for any possible CounterClaims?

I'm hasty, so what?
The claim wasn't unbelievable. Also, there seems to be a connection between China's role and his role, and as I have a role that its connected with another, I thought it was true.

Me wonders why people doubt Kdub but insta-believe Zach CC. As Kdub said, Zach may need Kdub's lynch at all cost. Seems kind of opportunistic, isn't it? Erratic town points at Kdub (and GM, btw), and pressure builds over him, seems like a good chance to jump in his wagon and get him killed. There's something I don't like about this wagon, really.

So, yeah, I'm fine with my unvote for now.

Hey Snow_bunny, come to the thread and play please.

I want you to explain this post. I'm kinda interested in trying to get into what your thought process was at the time.

[Zachrulez]

Posting =/= contribution.

Sure, he posted. But he didn't say anything productive. In fact, he said things that were confusing, speculative, and unproductive.

I would like to hear Snow_Bunny's defense on the quick unvote.

FTR, I think you have a good point about the third party speculation.

I also think that your attacks on Phantom based on lack of contribution are hypocritical considering your own contribution level in the game.

Post moar please.

[Zachrulez]

I successfully roleblocked Nachomamma last night.

Conveniently, there is no kill this morning.

I PM'd the mod and he said roleblocks stop mafia kills.

More Nachomamma votes, please.

No way.

[Zachrulez]

Why would Almaster lie in this position Jason?

[Zachrulez]

Oh, I was just reacting to Almaster's claim.

It wasn't meant to cast any doubt on his claim at all. It was more surprise at it.

[Zachrulez]

Oh, I was just reacting to Almaster's claim.

It wasn't meant to cast any doubt on his claim at all. It was more surprise at it.

You know like when people gossip, like teenage girls, and someone claims to have done something extreme, and another girl reacts saying. "No way!"

[Zachrulez]

I want to hear more from Jason before I decide on anything today.

[Zachrulez]

I don't think there's a whole heck of a lot that can stop a roleblock.

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Alamaster GM

I took no actions whatsoever last night... So, Alamaster is obviously lying.

Interesting assumption here.

I believe Almaster is telling the truth about his roleblock, but it's not certain that it prevented a kill.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Almaster is town guys.

[Zachrulez]

I'd really like to hear from Jason ASAP.

[Zachrulez]

Not good enough. You are suggesting that Nacho's play to this point should be ignored without providing a reason why, while voting almaster on the claim that he's lying about his rber claim.

[Zachrulez]

I am the cop, I investigated Nach at got an innocent.

At the time I was not thinking right (bloody alcohol apple shots) , he could still have attempted RBing Nach without anything happening if Nach doesnt have a PR.

unvote

however It does create alot of WIFOM.

Or Nach is still scum. Your sanity is not guaranteed is it?

[Zachrulez]

Getting lost in the shuffle here is snow_bunny. Please respond to 228 snow_bunny.

Also, Jason who is scum?

[Zachrulez]

Your actions don't necessarily contradict Jason. Nacho could be telling the truth and there could be an entirely different reason that there was no kill.

[Zachrulez]

Hey, you voted Jason earlier in the day. (With about as much reasoning.)

Why can't you remember that?

[Zachrulez]

You stand out SB for the fact that you were the only player who was seemingly willing to believe Kdub's claim, and after Kdub's flip, your positions stand out even more to me.

[Zachrulez]

Well I can tell you I am not sum aligned and not evil in this game, I don't know that much about Star Wars, im more a Trek fan, ive seen the movies and that's it... I don't even think my character was in the movies.

Hmm... So, you're saying you're third party, right? Well, you say "I'm not scum" rather than "I'm town". I'd prefer to lynch scum, but third party is good too.

Vote:Jason

The reasoning for this vote SCREAMS of opportunism.

Vote: Snow_Bunny

[Zachrulez]

Are you asking us to take it back? Of course we understand that claiming mason always has the possibility of being taken as scum, but we're playing the pro-town way and calling you out before you mislead the town with your cop-claim.

Wait, did you guys claim masons, or neighbors?

[Zachrulez]

Wait, I'm sorry, what's the difference between Mason's and neighbors.

Masons are usually confirmed. Neighbors usually are an unconfirmed masonry.

That's kinda the standard that MS wants to get us to, so it could be quite important to know whether you guys are actually masons. (and if you have confirmation of each other's innocence.) Or neighbors (and aren't sure.)

Even if your role says mason, if you don't have confirmation, you should ask the mod if he can.

[Zachrulez]

They are also roles that are easily confused with each other.

[Zachrulez]

... We haven't even gotten clarification on either of their claims.

And regardless of what the clarification is, I still prefer lynching snow_bunny by miles.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, and if they are neighbors, lynching one isn't going to prove anything regarding the other necessarily.

[Zachrulez]

Also, why was it so easy for SB to get your vote off of her Jason?

[Zachrulez]

FOS: Jason

[Zachrulez]

Also, why was it so easy for SB to get your vote off of her Jason?

I wanted her to post, I had seen her all over the boards, and lurking about this game... wanted to get her attention and get her to post by voting her.

So you voted for her, but you didn't really mean it?

Way to ignore my previous posts btw.

[Zachrulez]

Is there something about my line of inquiry on SB that isn't clear to you?

[Zachrulez]

Hell do you even think Cateraction is scum?

Your voting post doesn't make it look like you're convinced. Your stance feels soft. "Testing a claim."

I don't like it at all.

[Zachrulez]

Your attacks on me in post 215 do make sense if you were confident in Nacho being town at the time.

Given that neighbors are basically unconfirmed masons, does that change your feelings about Nacho at all or do you generally feel the same about him as you did before?

[Zachrulez]

I think the scums are most likely to be Jason and Snow_Bunny.

I'm leaning town on Cateraction and don't like how they're trying to lynch him on a scum/town theory that doesn't even come close to certainty, and ignores the reaction to my Nacho attacks from Cat that I pointed out from day 1.

[Zachrulez]

Concerning votecount.

Isn't Snow_bunny actually voting for Cateration, and Kast for Jason?

[Zachrulez]

Boo scum. And boo to you townies who wanted my death. Boooooo.

Grats scum.

You were given info that you slipped in a way that made you look like scum.

And that really sucks...

[Zachrulez]

Congrats to the scumteam. I still have no idea why we lynched JT, but I don' think that would've changed the outcome that much

because I had no read on d3x

or Kast.

Thanks to MM for modding.

This is why I investigated d3x actually.

[Zachrulez]

It didn't. I went into day 2 thinking he was town because of it.