Mini 904 - Narnia: LWW Mafia (Game Over)

[HackerHuck]

Unvote

I don't mean to derail the lynch, but I'd like to read through just to make sure my predecessor's vote is warranted. I'll have a catch-up post by end of day.

[HackerHuck]

I'm just going to post my brief notes and observations from my readthrough. I did feel that there was way too much distraction with the whole L-3 debacle that Starbuck initiated, so I'm really going to avoid commenting on it much. Starbuck is very overdefencive. I find that to be a common scumtell (I know many people may disagree, but meh).
Her Vote against Dybeck in 158 is so OMGUS it hurts. Don't like the weak attempt to distract with Sibelius just a few posts later. That name came out of nowhere and had nothing in the post to make me want to look at him. It really seems like she's grasping at straws.
It was a horrible claim by Starbuck. She really needed to put out more flavour rather than stringing it along. It did feel a little like she was trying to guage how the wind was blowing before giving any more details. Especially considering it was a vanilla role, I don't see what value there is for a townie to hold back.

Overall Starbuck seems a little too stubborn about the L-3 debate for it to be a real scumtell, but there have been enough other things to warrant the wagon in my opinion. I'm a little leery about how aggressively her wagon has been pressed by Papa Zito, then Dybeck, and Kiku.

I think that Starbuck overshadowed much of the other players. I'm not really going to go into my town reads yet, because I want to focus on who to lynch before we hit deadline. There are two others that really caught my eye and I also need to comment on Manho.

BV310 also caught my eye. Crawdad made a good catch (post 72) on BV310's Starbuck inconsistency.

BV310's scumlist has two potential scum on opposite ends of the spectrum. That said, I could see Papa Zito
bussing a scum Starbuck as hard as he did. I wouldn't say that PZ has been leading at this point. He's just been pushing the Starbuck wagon very hard. That's aggressive, but not really leading as I would define it.
I'm obviously concerned about his lack of desire to vote. He sure seemed to find Starbuck scummy, but he doesn't throw down a vote until he decides to "trust Dybeck". If Starbuck turns town, I could easily see BV310 trying to setup Dybeck for a fall tomorrow. When he gets called out for parroting, his response still seems like he's parroting various themes that have already been brought up and then brings up a new suspect.



Riceball is scum. He spends most of his time arguing about irrelevant facts and doesn't really bother to look for scum. It may be more obvious to look at his posts in iso, but I noticed it just reading through. Look at 144 (iso 10). He's just trying to fit in and make conversation without really scumhunting. Riceball is still scummy in 194 (iso 13).
I'm not really going along with the town here, but I really think this guy is scum. You guys should really join me.

Vote: Riceball

i think starbuck is town, but she is today's lynch.

Really? Why would you want to lynch someone you think is town? I had to reread him in iso to really figure this out, but I think I understand where he's coming from now. I do actually think Dybeck is townier than Starbuck, but I did like what Manho pointed out in post 254. I'm not sure that scum would be so ballsy as to make that statement this early on day one anyway (like I don't think they'd jump on someone to quicklynch at L-3.) I get some of the suspicion on Manho, but I'd really like to understand why he's singling out Dybeck for the "shit wagon" on Starbuck. Papa Zito was also aggressively pushing for her lynch as is Kiku. Why is Dybeck so important?

[HackerHuck]

My feeling right now is that I would much rather lynch Starbuck or BV310 over Manho, but I'll be fine moving onto Manho if we can't resurrect the other two. Obviously my preference is Riceball - especially since I haven't heard a peep from him, but I know that's not going to happen today.

[HackerHuck]

@HackerHuck - My comment about Sibelius did not come out of no where. If you go back and look at the mod's last vote count prior to my post, you will see that I was prodded as well as Sibelius. So I was wondering why Sibelius wasn't being given the same courtesies as I was. If you need me to provide links to the mod's vote count at that point and where my post is that I mention why no one is questioning Sibelious I will do so.

But you are about the 3rd person now who has misrepresented me as saying I brought Sibelius's name out of no where at that point, when I did not. I also have explained this more than once.

You hadn't mentioned Sibelius previously and your absence was glaring because there was pressure on you at the time. I don't see how you can claim your situation was the same as his. Explaining something multiple times doesn't make the scummy behaviour disappear.

Seeing as how we're deadlined, would you consider claiming now - to save the town the time it would take to build a wagon all the way to L-1?

The thing that bothers me the most here is that EVERY GAME is deadlined.

I can't believe you would say this in the very same post that you accuse Dybeck of the "massive lie" that no game would have a quicklynch so fast. Unless things have changed dramatically in the last year, I'm pretty sure that games without deadlines would easily outnumber those with (newbies excluded).

So which is it? You guys obviously have some things mixed up in the mafia QT

Daytalking scum is a rare commodity. Why on earth would you imply that the mechanic exists in this game?

This seems like a bit of a stretch. Do you really think that Starbuck was actually implying this?

[HackerHuck]

I NEVER claimed my situation was the same as his. Please provide an example of me saying this if you think I did. Otherwise, I only asked why Sibelius (who was prodded at the same time as me) wasn't being questioned and I was. Why was I the only one when he was prodded too. That was all.

Are you trying to say that the only reason you were being questioned is because of the prod? If that's the case, then you were trying to imply that the situation was the same.
If the situations weren't the same and you weren't being questioned because of the prod, then why would we care that Sibelius was prodded?

If there's another explanation, I'd be happy to hear it.

[HackerHuck]

It was a horrible claim by Starbuck. She really needed to put out more flavour rather than stringing it along. It did feel a little like she was trying to guage how the wind was blowing before giving any more details. Especially considering it was a vanilla role, I don't see what value there is for a townie to hold back.

I don't really have a problem with the character name for your claim, but the way it came out was really odd. Why did you have to string it along the way you did?

[HackerHuck]

I'm not sure I understand the logic behind a partial claim. Don't we want all of the information out there before we get a counter and before we go to night and the mafia have a chance to talk?

[HackerHuck]

I'm not sure I understand the logic behind a partial claim. Don't we want all of the information out there before we get a counter and before we go to night and the mafia have a chance to talk?

Why don't we just have anyone with a power role claim? You can't honestly be this dense, can you? If manho is Susan Pevensie, then we don't want scum to know what she can do. It produces a protective layer of wifom for her to work behind.

I guess I must be really dense. How does WIFOM help the town and why wouldn't the scum kill him regardless of what he can do?

[HackerHuck]

bv310 is still on the top of my list - but is it in our best interest to force a third claim today?

It's in our best interest to lynch scum. If you don't think Manho or Starbuck are scum, then that's where you need to go. That said, the timing is probably too tight to get to a bv wagon unless we're willing to lynch him regardless of claim. I'm not there.

[HackerHuck]

bv310 is still on the top of my list - but is it in our best interest to force a third claim today?

It's in our best interest to lynch scum. If you don't think Manho or Starbuck are scum, then that's where you need to go. That said, the timing is probably too tight to get to a bv wagon unless we're willing to lynch him regardless of claim. I'm not there.

Why are you still squatting on RBT?

I think with bv I just want a lynch.

I'm squatting for the reasons I just indicated. I'm not ready to push BV regardless of claim and if I switch it will be to Starbuck. I'm also wondering why I've seen Riceball's name show up in the forum without him coming here and posting.

[HackerHuck]

So you show back up and that's all you contribute?

[HackerHuck]

Day 1 hammer is a poor place to look for scum. It was only about 11 hours until deadline. No other wagon was going anywhere. But I digress.

Sometimes, but I disagree in this case. People make mistakes and hammer without too much thought, so I don't think it indicates that he's town.

Par for the course with RBT. He should participate today, though. Day 1 is always wifomic and uncertain.

After this quote, I'm even more certain that his hammer doesn't prove he's town.

I liked Riceball yesterday and his hammer hasn't made me think he's any less scummy. With Starbuck and bv310 out of the way, he's leading the pack by a mile.

Vote: Riceballtail

[HackerHuck]

Okay. Maybe you misunderstood me. I think if a vig shot Beaver then that player should come forward. I'm not going to fashion my investigation based on assumed motives. i.e. unless a vig comes forward I will believe this to be a scum/sk kill. Assuming it is a vig kill without proof would be "diving in" to a bucket of wifom imo.

I don't think that outing the vig will be as helpful as you do.

[HackerHuck]

...Good place to start meant "we need to start somewhere". We had a "case" and a suspect. A vote adds pressure.

Unvote

I have played with RBT and I don't think it is kosher to write his behavior off as probable town. It is null tell at best. I gave him a pass on day 1 because in previous experience(and two games I've read) his play doesn't change on day 1 even if pressured. Snail writing his play off reads like scum/scum or scum buddying town. In both cases Snail is the part of scum.

Vote: evilsnail

I'm having a little trouble following your train of thought throughout that entire post, but I noticed that you mentioned RBT twice in your post and imply here that he's not likely town. If pressure is so important, why choose someone else to vote for?
I'm also curious why you're choosing evilsnail as your target when you've admitted that his read on RBT is the same as yours. Just how is it that it looks like scum doing it when he says it, but not you?

[HackerHuck]

What is "ISO"?

People are using it to indicate when they read someone's posts in isolation rather than in the normal context of the thread. At least that what I'm seeing lately.

[HackerHuck]

Looking at end of day, I had two questions:
Were all the scum voting for town?
Are all of us so dumb that no one was voting for scum?

Granted I'm confident that I'm town and I'm probably right about riceball, but I find it very odd that we ended the day with pretty much everyone sitting with their votes on a townie. Not only that, we pressured another townie enough to claim mid-day. That left me with three people to review:
Riceballtail
Sibelius/evilsnail
Papa Zito

I took a look at both Papa Zito and Sibelius' actions yesterday, since I know I'm not scum and I already find Riceball scummy.

Unfortunately, Sibelius became inactive prior to the Starbuck claim and I wanted to see his reaction to the wagon on BV310. I get what Papa Zito was saying about the toomuchinformationitis or whatever, but I also got the feeling - much later in the day - that Starbuck was probably going to be town. In fact there were a few people who felt that Starbuck was town, but still were interested in her lynch (Manho specifically).

What I don't like about Sibelius. His original vote on Papa Zito is off. It appears that he's voting for Papa Zito because he thinks Starbuck is scum and his single aggressive comment about Heilograph. If I looked only at what the post contained, I would think that bv, riceball, or manho would be better suspects. It's one thing to believe that Starbuck is town, but he seems to pick on Papa Zito and not really talk about any of the other people who were pressing Starbuck. Later on, Sibelius becomes suspicious of Heilograph, even though Zito's treatment of Heilograph appears to be half of the case against him. his final summary of his suspicions is also pretty weak. Snarkiness isn't really a scumtell and Papa Zito certainly wasn't the only one harping on Starbuck. Evilsnail's responses have been pretty good for the most part except for this post.

Because opportunistic, lurkish play is not a reliable indicator of scum.

Really?

I don't see too much wrong with Papa Zito's posting. The biggest complaint would be that he went after three townies (I happen to believe Manho's claim) over the course of the day. He also was quick to get off of the Starbuck wagon and remain off until the lynch. Keeping his vote on BV310 makes it look like he's scumhunting and keeps his name off of the Starbuck wagon. His relative ignorance of Sibelius' vote on him is also worth noting. I'm not saying he's likely scum, but there's more than enough here to keep me from putting him in the town camp. I wouldn't even be surprised to see him and sibelius/evilsnail as a pair, but his recent attention to evilsnail does make that a little less likely in my eyes.

I'm willing to move off of Riceball for now, but I still think he's scum.

Unvote:
Vote: Evilsnail

[HackerHuck]

I'd like to understand what you're trying to get at with all of the debate over where people belong on his ranking. It seems a bit of a distraction and not really leading down a path that would help determine evil's alignment.

[HackerHuck]

I'd like to understand what you're trying to get at with all of the debate over where people belong on his ranking. It seems a bit of a distraction and not really leading down a path that would help determine evil's alignment.

Its actually helped me quite a bit. If you have any other ideas, feel free to share. Criticising without offering an alternative is lazy.

Maybe I could offer an alternative if you actually answered my question. You spent an awful lot of effort on that questioning to not come up with anything of value. ...or is there some reason why you've chosen not to share?

[HackerHuck]

I'm believing the claim right now. I'll go back to my previous suspicion of Riceballtail, mainly based on his day one actions.

Unvote:
Vote: Riceballtail

I don't approve of a massclaim at this point in the game. Most themed games are meant to survive an early massclaim. Unless you don't believe the claims, the odds are in our favor to come up with one scum. Twelve player game with three dead townies and two claimed ones. Three or four scum out of seven players should make scumhunting easier.

[HackerHuck]

uhhhhhhhhhhhh

Well the game has stalled yeah but I mean is it really hard for the scumz to figure who to kill off based on names alone? Plus if you're doing this you're really banking on them not having safeclaims.

I totally agree with this. I don't think name claims on their own will really help us and I'm not willing to out any power roles for this experiment.

[HackerHuck]

Why is a massclaim now "in the spirit of the game"?

[HackerHuck]

I'm Father Christmas

Papa Zito is up next

[HackerHuck]

Let's just keep things moving, but Papa Zito needs to claim as soon as he (or his replacement arrives). Let's hear your claim now Wolfram.

[HackerHuck]

OK, we need to remember that Papa Zito and Gawyn could still show up in the next day or two and we're stuck with a deadline that's three days from now. We'll be able to get claims from them before deadline, so let's make sure we've got someone to string up today. Five people not voting is unacceptable at this point in the day.

[HackerHuck]

I'm not moving my vote yet.

Riceball - what exactly does your role do? Does it just confirm someone's name or does it give you an ability too?

I'd also like to know why you picked papa zito for your investigation.

I'm thinking that Orelius might be a red herring. Mod obviously gave safeclaims or made scum roles have some kind of connection.

I only like Narninian's plan of testing Riceball if gawyn's scum. Otherwise we've got to kill a townie to confirm him. I'm also suspicious that the

role

name cop claimed his ability after we all claimed. The only thing I think he has going for him is this post.

@manho: I disagree on PZ being scum, but I'm sure that the Kiku/Snail argument has at least one scum involved. I could also see it as a possible bus.

[HackerHuck]

EBWOP: To wit, I don't see why Wolf would be trying to cast suspicion on PZ. Uncounterclaimed Lucy seems a town lock. 651 could be oppurtunistic scum.

Tunneling much?

I wish search were available so I could confirm, but I'm pretty sure I've played in a game where there was a town role that received names instead of alignment.

[HackerHuck]

I am Mr. Tumnus

That's what I was expecting.

[HackerHuck]

There's really no harm in RBT dying with his knowledge. He apparently knows enough that he believes Papa Zito to be town, so putting that information out there really won't benefit us unless you really think that he's not interpreting his information correctly.

If RBT is scum, we could possibly catch him if his information doesn't match up with Papa Zito, but that's the only benefit I see from pressing for that info.

I will ask one question of Riceball-
Without stating specifically what the role is, do you think that it's possible his role could be on that scum would have?

The more I think about this, the more I believe Riceball's claim. Unless he and Papa Zito orchestrated today's claim manoeuvering, his defence of Papa Zito earlier today seems genuine.

Unvote: RiceBallTail

[HackerHuck]

I'm getting the feeling from Kikuchiyo that she wants to see Wolframhart lynched, but she's opposed to being tied closely to the wagon and the people on it. There's a lot about her behaviour that rubs me the wrong way and it's pretty much her claim that's keeping my vote off of her.

Kiku- ignoring the claims - since they were only there to prevent counterclaims - why do you think that Wolframhart is scum?

[HackerHuck]

Well, it appears that the theme is based on the movie. I haven't seen it, so are there any significant differences from the book?

Maybe I don't understand the jailkeeper role, but wouldn't a watcher see that someone was visited by the jailkeeper? That makes it more likely that the jailkeeper kept Manho from performing his duties. We never got any information from Manho after N1, so who did you watch that night?

I'm not feeling too comfortable about the fact that no one had successful results last night and a jailkeeper was killed. Considering we also had a pair of masons die already and now we've got three other power roles - two of which failed - that seems a little dodgy to me. That's not even accounting for any ability that the other Pevensies have.

Papa Zito - is there any reason you are aware of that might have caused Manho's ability to fail?

[HackerHuck]

I'm not sure if I'm fully on board with this, but if most of the town agrees, I'll flesh out my role.

[HackerHuck]

Well, I won't bother dragging things on. I'm a commuter, so I can disappear during the night and no one's actions will work on me.

[HackerHuck]

Manho didn't claim his power on day one when he roleclaimed, so his ability claim was fleshed out in post 706 - sorry can't link to it, but just go back a page to see it.

Wait. People aren't posting flavor behind these powers.

My flavor doesn't really tie into my power, rather it's just related to the character. Not going to be of much help there.

[HackerHuck]

It doesn't really say so, but the commuter bit probably fits because I've got a reindeer sleigh. The other flavor I have is only about my departure and reason for coming back. It's only one sentence long though, so I'm not saying more for fear of modkill.

[HackerHuck]

I'm not really convinced by HH's claim.

Which part do you doubt?

[HackerHuck]

Why has this game ground to a halt?

Because almost half of people left are scum who have no interest in saying something to get them lynched...

[HackerHuck]

I would say that Rumblebuffin or Oerius are lesser characters.

I agree that the role is unusual and I'm surprised at the number of power roles I've seen so far. If we're going to be challenging the roles, I would think that yours is the most out of line. I won't go into any more detail though, until we get the rest of the claims.

[HackerHuck]

PZ-Doc
HackerHuck-Commuter
Evilsnail-Self Riviver
RBT-Rolecop
Pwnman-VT
Narnian-VT
Manho-Watcher?

PZ is doc, as reflected above.

The way you did that is a little unsettling.

[HackerHuck]

I think it's quite obvious that there is a scum roleblocker, since no townie claimed that role and riceball was blocked after claiming rolecop.

I would guess that the jailkeeper targeted Manho last night, and the roleblocker targeted Manho. That would explain both misses.

I'm actually not keen on evilsnail's role, because it's quite powerful and has no obvious counter.

The masons were lovers, so they had an obvious weakness.
Doc's ability can be stopped by the jailkeeper and a scum roleblocker.
Rolecop's ability can be stopped by the jailkeeper, the commuter, and a scum roleblocker
Jailkeeper can block nightkills, but can be stopped by a scum roleblocker
Commuter can block own nightkill, but that would not likely be stopped by a scum roleblocker
Watcher's ability can be stopped by the jailkeeper, possibly the commuter (I don't think a watcher would get anything from a commuter anyway), and a scum roleblocker

What role have we seen that could possibly counter the reviver?

If I were to base my decision

solely

on the abilities I've seen, I'd guess that the reviver and at least one vanilla townie are scum.

My role is very limited, because it only benefits town by being a doctor who can self-heal. Every other use of my ability just thwarts the efforts of information roles.

Papa Zito - why did you choose to protect Narninian last night?

[HackerHuck]

If we hadn't lost our jailkeeper, I'd vote to lynch you just so we could test out your ability. I'm just not ready to risk LYLO from trying to outguess the mod.

So had we roleclaimed yesterday, we could have lynched you as a test. If you survived, the jailkeeper and doc could have targeted you - guaranteeing your survival and basically confirming everyone except for me, manho, and the vanilla townies.

I pretty much believe Manho, Riceball, and Papa Zito, so that just leaves you and the two vanillas - assuming three scum. I don't see how there could be only two scum with all of the town power roles that have been confirmed and claimed.

[HackerHuck]

Why not riceball? I would think it important to keep alive the one person who could confirm you.

[HackerHuck]

process of elimination. I know the Pensevies are town, which leaves 4 people, of which there is likely 3 scum. Hackerhuck's role seems odd, and yet another vanilla townie Pwnman seems unlikely considering I have no powers (just a little knowledge) and we had 2 vanilla townies already.

So your role indicates that all of the Pevensies are town? That's a little different from what you first said.

I am a straight up vanilla townie - I know the other Pensevies are in game and I know they have powers as part of my role text.

Knowing they are in the game and knowing they are town are two different things.

[HackerHuck]

That's a terrible idea. I'd like to know why you think it isn't.

[HackerHuck]

I would like to see one reason to lynch me that isn't related to my name.


I could be on board with a Narninian lynch, but I'd like to see his response to my post 764 above.

[HackerHuck]

Based on my earlier suspicions and the roles revealed so far, I'd rather lynch Evilsnail than Narninian. I'm not getting much of a scum read from his posts (in iso) and he has been somewhat consistent about the other Pevensies being town. One thing I noticed is that his flavor - as he explained it - indicates that I would be similarly aligned with his siblings.

Also, on the off chance that I'm wrong about Aslan, we still have a tiny chance that scum would miss on their NK and we would all end up living to see another day.

Vote: Evilsnail

My second choice now would be pwnman/Mr. Tumnus, but only because of his role.

[HackerHuck]

I don't doubt you Manho, but I definitely want to hear from Riceballtail first. On the off chance that he wasn't roleblocked, that probably means that the last scum wasn't lying about role and ability.

[HackerHuck]

It's not LYLO, so I have no qualms about trusting Manho now. I also don't see much point in voting yet, because I'm still a little uncertain about who could be the third scum.

[HackerHuck]

LYLO changes things a lot.

Now that Riceball got a positive result, it's even more concerning. I'm assuming that Riceball also confirmed the reviver part of Snail's claim, so that confirms him as town. Knowing I'm town, that makes things a lot more challenging because of the probable third scum role.

If Riceball is third scum, I don't see him pushing for a Kairyuu lynch if Kairyuu is scum. It would be much easier for him to just discredit me and get the easy win. On the same note, Manho scum wouldn't bother to put his scum partner in the cross-hairs like that when he could easily fabricate a lie about any townie to get the win.

Thus I can only conclude that our scumteam is either:
Manho and Riceballtail
Evilsnail and Riceballtail

I guess I could see riceball and Kairyuu as a scumpair, since Manho mad his claim first but that really doesn't change the common thread in my list.

Vote: Riceballtail

[HackerHuck]

I see what you're saying Kairyuu, but if I can't see a logical outcome where Riceballtail is town, then why would I try to decide whether it's you or Manho when that lowers my chance of hitting scum.

What about my logic don't you agree with?

[HackerHuck]

So how certain are you that evilsnail is town? Why isn't it possible for you to vote for him and evilsnail to also vote for riceball? If I can get riceball lynched today, then it will be a little easier to decide whether to go after you or manho.

[HackerHuck]

Riceball - investigation please.

[HackerHuck]

Riceball, you never confirmed Evilsnail's ability. Is he a reviver?

[HackerHuck]

Narnian had basically claimed scum with a slip.

Piggybacking onto the fact he had claimed that he hadn't been given items made it a very easy latch for a scum to cling onto to confirm themselves as town.

What do you mean by the bolded part?

[HackerHuck]

what items would I have been given?

This is pretty easy for me. Scum can't be reviver and I can easily see that scum could have a rolecop ability. Besides, your investigation makes no sense. Why would you have picked Manho to investigate instead of me? I've been under suspicion by both Manho and Evilsnail, so it only makes sense to either clear me or convict me.

Vote: Riceballtail

[HackerHuck]

It makes more sense than targeting someone who has claimed a role that I may not be able to target last night? Easier to say "I confirmed these two, let's finish this". I confirmed Snail yesterday, and I would have confirmed manho today, had Snail been the NK. In claiming a level of being untargetable, I clearly would have preferred to target the person who didn't have such a claim. You could claim commuter, yet be some kind of untargetable role. I think it was obvious to target the person who would not be able to be hidden from an investigation.

I have to actually choose to use my role for it to work, which hasn't made sense for me to do this game. With a doc and other useful power roles outed, there was no reason for scum to target me at night and I've just sat on it. Not to mention, had you investigate me and had I actually used my ability last night, the fact that you got no result would essentially confirm me. Tell me whether it's likely that the scum would have two role-blocking abilities... You had to pick Manho as your choice, because you didn't want to confirm me and you had already confirmed Evilsnail. Manho was pretty well cleared at that point too, because he outed one of his scum partners when we were at LYLO.

[HackerHuck]

Had Riceball as scum since I joined up, but couldn't be convincing enough. What a way to lose. Sorry that I came across as so scummy myself. It was surprising to look through that QT to see all the cries for my head.

This was also a situation where the early claims caused us problems. Once the roles were out in the open, the mood switched from hunting scum to discussing role possibilities. Kudos to kdub for setup, because it wasn't close to being broken by the claims.