I guess there's no need to unvote either
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
I'm obviously not worried about being shot by scum-Bogre. Nobody wants to get shot at here, so I don't know how that would be an indicator of alignment.ortolan wrote:drake isn't scum, I'm not scum, Hacker's last post makes me suspect he's worried about being shot by town-Bogre (not that Bogre's other posts haven't themselves been scummy).
Dunno about Sarag.
ortolan wrote:...Hacker's last post makes me suspect he's worried about being shot by town-Bogre (not that Bogre's other posts haven't themselves been scummy).
Bogre - Please explain to me how I'm misrepresenting him. He made a statement that implies you are acting scummy. I'm asking whether he thinks that means you're scummy.HackerHuck wrote:Are you now thinking that Bogre is scum? Weren't you of the opinion that Bogre is town?
Agreed.Bogre wrote:Worry about who appears scummy to you before worrying about the case against Drake.rewq455 wrote:Can someone please post the basic case against Drake? I have read over the last three pages, and all I see is a case against his inactivity. I was planning on reading the full thread today, but real life caught up with me.
I do hope you're not serious.Xylthixlm wrote:If we hurry we can rap this game up in time to qualify for this years scummies
BTW, I see nothing in the rules preventing consecutive shots:
shoot: bogre
shoot: Sarag
shoot: ortolan
I had to look for the query you reference and I agree that it's valid. This is a piece that I didn't like.Bogre wrote: 1: I want comments on the 'obvious reasons', Almaster.
2: This one's for everyone: Do you feel that Almaster's query is valid, given the comments HR has given, esp. his indications of Xyl's strong play, and his subtle accusation that Xyl looks bad in hindsight?
I'm still leaning town on Xyl, but I don't like how he's stating that Xyl has been accepted as town. I don't think you can make the connection that agreeing with Xyl's scumlist is the same as finding him town.HowardRoark wrote:@Bogre: Based on the scum lists, Xylthixlm has been pretty much accepted as town.
I still think that's not an appropriate statement. Just because someone isn't in most peoples' top 3 list doesn't mean they've been accepted as town.HowardRoark wrote:Perhaps stating that Xylthixlmappearsto have been accepted as town would make it clearer
I tend to find it suspicious when people make blanket statements about what "the town" thinks, especially when those statements aren't supported.Xylthixlm wrote:I question why you are questioning whether my townieness is questioned.HackerHuck wrote:I still think that's not an appropriate statement. Just because someone isn't in most peoples' top 3 list doesn't mean they've been accepted as town.HowardRoark wrote:Perhaps stating that Xylthixlmappearsto have been accepted as town would make it clearer
I thought I was pretty clear in my response. I'll try to rephrase it so that you understand.HowardRoark wrote: @HackerHuck: I thought my question was very clear: "How did you feel about Xylthixlm guiding Vala Mal Doran?" Answer; don't avoid.
1) I'm probably not the best person to answer this. It certainly wasn't deserved. I don't really understand why you stuck with your arguments on Rite, when I didn't see the scumminess to begin with.Bogre wrote:So here's some questions to get you guys going.
1.) Why do you feel I was tunneling on Rite/Huck? Was this deserved?
2)If you had one failing as a scumhunter in this game, what would it be?
3)Who has been the most effective/least effecting in scumhunting?
4) Who is the most/least protown? Why are you protown? What have you done anti-town?
Do you really find this to be a significant scumtell or is it just someone forgetting the different mechanics of this game?HowardRoark wrote:Oops! Why would one be worried about being shot D1 . . . and not being around D2? Hmmmmmm . . . SCUM!!Sarag (360) wrote:Some of this probably won't get answered until day 2, but I wanted to get it in before the day ends in case I'm shot.
I don't see that your behaviour is at all similar to Xyl's. Xyl was giving general advice that would apply to any gunbearer, whereas you appear to be leading the town and ignoring the gunbearer. Even if I felt that Xyl were "guiding Vala", I don't think it compares here. You're not guiding Bogre, rather trying to take over for him.HowardRoark wrote:HackerHuck (439) wrote:I don't recall anyone really trying to lead the town around yesterday. What in particular would you like me to comment on?HowardRoark wrote:@HackerHuck: How did you feel about Xylthixlm guiding Vala Mal Doran?These answers do not address Xylthixlm's advice giving yesterday because that would show the different standards in response to my play versus Xylthixlm's. (@HackerHuck: Look at iso 0, 4, 32, 36, 49 to you, 50, 52, 53, 54, 55, 65, 66 for some examples with Vala Mal Doran and other players.)HackerHuck (456) wrote:I thought I was pretty clear in my response. I'll try to rephrase it so that you understand.HowardRoark wrote:@HackerHuck: I thought my question was very clear: "How did you feel about Xylthixlm guiding Vala Mal Doran?" Answer; don't avoid.
I didn't really think that Xyl was specifically guiding Vala. Give me some examples of what you're talking about and I'll give you my feelings on them.
Not Obvscum, because I don't see any damning evidence in that post. Wouldn't it be more useful if you actually pointed to what you felt made him "obvscum"?HowardRoark wrote:I would like everyone to weigh-in on the evidence. (For those who need it spelled out: Do you agree that Sarag is obvscum based on the post 360 statement? If not, why not?)
What makes you think we'll get a dead townie from it?rewq455 wrote:Thats not a very townie thing to say. We still get a dead townie from it.Bogre if by any chance you're not going to shoot one of dos hacker sarag or almaster please just shoot me instead so I can frag the scum.
There has been a lot of discussion and there has still been confusion. It's borderline scummy to try and string someone up just for confusing the mechanics of this game.HowardRoark wrote:@HackerHuck: How much discussion has there been in this game about the mechanics and proper play? A good amount. I have no reason to believe that it had anything to do with a lapse in understanding. (BTW, thanks for giving the scum an out if she couldn't or didn't think of that as an excuse.)
This is correct.HowardRoark wrote:If ortolan is town gambiting . . . what is the point? I don't see how it leads to finding scum.
I had a very similar feeling in that he was under the radar, yet you know that he's active from reading. A lot of his posts are very defencive - of others - and he's only had a couple of real pushes on players that I saw - Bogre and then Howard. That's more real scumhunting than I've seen from a few people, but it's kind of buried by a lot of his other posting. I'd like to know what Yosarian2 thinks of Sarag's case on Howard and whether that jives with the feelings he got.Yosarian2 wrote:...Sarag wrote: I don't really have a good third candidate. Yosarian2 keeps sliding under my radar and seems to be playing very reactively
what?
I've been very active, and quite agressivly scumhunting the entire game. I haven't been "reactive" at all, other people have been forced to react to my attacks. Including you.
So what the heck are you talking about?
Interesting point. Do you think that would mean Xyl's list is pretty accurate if Howard is scum or do you think he's planting a seed to get Xyl shot because his list is all wet?Yosarian2 wrote:My impression is that he would like to undermine the trust people have in Xyl and stop him from being thought of as "confirmed", but dosn't dare to take him on directly at this stage of the game when Xyl has so much popular support. That's very much a scum tactic; if Howard were actually town who was suspicious of Xyl, I'd expect him to go after Xyl in a much more straightforward way then this.
Well, if you're only looking at it from those two avenues, you're correct that there is no town interpretation. However, that's more of a false dilemma. The actuality of it is that I'm town not wanting to get shot (funny how neither town nor scum want to get shot, so it really isn't much of a tell) and that I felt (and still do for the most part) that Xyl was town and with Bogre tunneling on two townies, being wrong about Bogre would likely cause two dead townies. I've explained this all before, so if you don't follow my thought process by now, it's doubtful you ever will.Sarag wrote:Feel free to provide a townie interpretation, I can't think of one.HackerHuck wrote:I really like Sarag's post 587 - except for the part where she says "either interpretation has HackerHuck as scum".
Isn't the bolded part what you're using to accuse me of being scum?Xylthixlm wrote:Pulling this back up so I don't forget it...Xylthixlm wrote:1) DraketheFake is completely wrong here.DraketheFake wrote:I'll amend: correct play as asuspectedtownie. This game rests more squarely on the decision-making/scum-hunting abilities of the individual rather than the group. Since the penalty for being incorrectly suspected isn't death - and since survival instinct won't kick in - the only person coming under suspicion who should hedge at the prospect of being shot this early is a scum player. Yes, a townie under early suspicion in the interests of the town playing a perfect game might try desperately to avoid the gun, butthe unique mechanics of the game make it so that weaseling out from under the gun should basically be a heavy scum tell.
2) DraketheFake is probably scum here.
I was surprised at that too.Sarag wrote:Bogre, what's your read on HackerHuck? I'm surprised to see he didn't rate a mention in your last post.
Yes it did. Let's hope DoS is a little more involved than he has been lately.Xylthixlm wrote:Well that sucked.
I was actually trying to say the opposite. I think DoS needs to reconsider whether Ortolan is really town.AlmasterGM wrote:I don't like this post - it almost seems to be telling DoS to quickshoot ortolan. At the same time, however, I think ortolan is scum. Not sure what to read off it.HackerHuck wrote:I'm a little surprised by the choice of gunbearer. At first I was happy that Ortolan would be soon revealed as scum, but now I'm wondering whether scum-Ortolan would risk giving DoS the gun.
It's a good thing you're not the gunbearer. My preference is Howard, but I'd like to read back through to find some decent alternatives. I don't think Sarag is scum.Xylthixlm wrote:If I was gunbearer and had 5 minutes to deadline to shoot someone right now, I'd shoot HackerHuck.
HackerHuck wrote:Bogre - please listen to Ortolan and put him out of his misery. He hasn't done any scumhunting since the game began and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. After you get him out of the way, you can go after Howard or someone else that you prefer.
rewq455 wrote:Good point.... this kills 2 townies. Townies we can't afford to lose.... if there are as many townies as mafia, we lose..... Bogre be carefull about your your shot.Xylthixlm starts the Bogre wagon based on his reaction to the "don't act scummy" post. Xylthixlm continues to push the Bogre is scum mantra while giving himself an "out" a few times (51 & 81). There's also the fact that he was willing to have Vala Mal Doran die in order for Bogre to die sooner (84). Overall, Xylthixlm doesn't look good in hindsight.
While I thought this was a good post at the time, it does seem odd that he would ask the gunbearer this question. After that, there's not really any scum hunting that I could see. He quotes a lot with little one-liners that might try to pick at a comment here and there, but he's more or less playing devil's advocate to everyone and not supporting his stances.rewq455 wrote:@ BogrePlease re-write why you think Rite and his replacement are scummy.
AlmasterGM in post 474 wrote:If I had the gun, I would shoot either ortolan or Saraag right now.
Ortolan because of what just happened.
Saraag because he hasn't posted in a while, which is odd given HR's offensive claims.
I don't really find these quotes to support a Howard/Alamaster scumteam, but I could see scum-Alamaster forgetting that he was bussing scum-Sarag.AlmasterGM in post 588 wrote:Shoot ortolan already. He's scum. I'd also be satisfied with offing DOS or HR (HR because 1) I agree with Yosarian2's case and 2) HR isn't doing anything other than saying "hay guy, look at that awesome scumtell I found on Sarg.")
If it were such a slip, how come you didn't notice it?Maemuki wrote:...Rereading Zakeri I actually quite like his play. He was lurky, but his posts were good when they were made. I find it easy to follow his thought processes. I also liked Almaster's pressuring of Howard, and his other posts. For some reason I wasn't noticing him much and thinking of him as a lurker almost as bad as DoS but reading his posts, they're actually decent. Not amazing, but I see nothing damning there.
!!! Wait, is this "Hey my scumbuddy slipped up and now somebody noticed it! Quick! Call HH town 'cause he did that!"Hmm, actually after reading HackerHuck's 689 I agree that AlmasterGM's turnaround on me does seem pretty scummy. Like he thought "hey - easy target!" (or "hey I'm going to help my scumbuddy push this case") and then when no one cared, he let it go. Some town points to HackerHuck for this find actually.
Also Almaster said that Sarag was probrably scum. Then we get to D3, where did that suspicion go to?
So it appears that you think the scum are incapable of bussing - except for me.ortolan wrote:This is a very good reason not to shoot HowardRoark.Sarag (706) wrote:You should shoot HowardRoark instead. I've made the case for that already.
Almaster (708) wrote:My top suspect is Maemukei.Almaster (708) wrote:t.l.;dr - you should shoot Maemuki today.These are very good reasons not to shoot Maemukei.Maemuki (693) wrote:I am believing an Sarag/AlmasterGM scumteam now. She looks like "Hey, just look! There are scummier people than my buddy *attackattackattack*"
...
I don't know why Xyl thinks Yos is town, he and Hacker are totally the odd ones out here. I'm about 95% sure they're the last two scum at this point.
I'm also wondering why you aren't concerned that Nacho thinks Yos is town. I really haven't seen anything in his play that indicates a good town read, and the quote you provided certainly doesn't convince me.HackerHuck at the bottom of post 689 wrote:...I don't really find these quotes to support a Howard/Alamaster scumteam, but I could see scum-Alamaster forgetting that he was bussing scum-Sarag.
You do realise how this game is played, right? Informed minority = scum = role PM with scumbuddies. Anyway, that's not even the point of the "slip". It was when Alamaster had been putting Sarag high on his scumlist and suddenly dropped all suspicion of her without any reason.Maemuki wrote:...it's not a damn slip if there's not a freaking flip! What, do you think that I can see everyone's role PM's before they flip? Give me a break.If it were such a slip, how come you didn't notice it?
You were the one who called it out as a slip when you read Sarag's post. My question was why you didn't identify it as a slip earlier. If anything, you ignored my question with a non-answer.Maemuki wrote:!!! Wait, is this "Hey my scumbuddy slipped up and now somebody noticed it! Quick! Call HH town 'cause he did that!"Sarag wrote:Hmm, actually after reading HackerHuck's 689 I agree that AlmasterGM's turnaround on me does seem pretty scummy. Like he thought "hey - easy target!" (or "hey I'm going to help my scumbuddy push this case") and then when no one cared, he let it go. Some town points to HackerHuck for this find actually.
Also Almaster said that Sarag was probrably scum. Then we get to D3, where did that suspicion go to?
You were the one annoyed that I was ignoring itMaemuki wrote:Eeeeh, HH, no point on discussing whether Almaster or Sarag are scum, they're dead, and they're scum!
According to Xyl, the scum were ignoring me. I know very well that you're familiar with the concept of bussing. I was asking why thought scum would supposedly unbus one person to just bus another.Maemuki wrote:HH, meet this magical concept known as...Since you believe that I'm scum, I'm curious how you reconcile it with this post of Sarag's. Up until that post she had spent my entire time in-game calling me out as scum. I noticed Alamaster's odd turnaround on Sarag, so she decides that I'm not as scummy, but now Alamaster is. If I'm scum, why would she just move from one scum to another?bussing.
Why wouldn't you pay attention to two people that you thought were scummy?Maemuki wrote:I didn't because I didn't pay attention.You were the one who called it out as a slip when you read Sarag's post. My question was why you didn't identify it as a slip earlier. If anything, you ignored my question with a non-answer.
If you look at Maemuki, she had posited that Sarag and Alamaster were scum together. I would normally think of that as coming more likely from town, but you seem to think she's scummy. Why is that?Xylthixlm wrote:Took another look at Yos, and compared to some past games I've played with him. He is hard to read, but my gut says he's town. I'll take another look if Maemuki and HowardRoark are shot and the game isn't over.
Yos, while you may be a great player, I'm not sold that you could get all four scum right (unless they were listed in your role PM.) Which are you more likely to be wrong about - Howard or Mae - and whom would you replace that person with?Yosarian2 wrote:It's especally funny for you to act like my post was "OMGUS", when I've been saying for DAYS now that the scum are (Howard, Mae, Sarag, and Almaster). How can my post be OMGUS when I have been attacking you and your three scumbuddies for days before you ever attacked me?
You almost got your wish, but Xyl disappeared on us.DrippingGoofball wrote:I just read the rules and you can't measure my disappointment at finding that I don't have a gun.
Seriously, you couldn't tell that was the way I was leaning? A lot of my questions revolved around nacho.Yosarian2 wrote:Howard. For the love of all that is good and holy, shoot Howard. And then if you have just one bullet left in your gun after that, shoot Howard again, just to make absolutely sure.DrippingGoofball wrote:Who should I kill?
I have no idea why Hacker didn't shoot Howard today; I really find the decision really frustrating, especially since he made it without letting us know that's the direction he was leaning in first.
I hadn't caught that before. Of course I did try to click through to the link in the second postortolan wrote:the scum did have daytalk. I'd like to see the qt actually
I actually agree with the shorter deadline too. I know that I relied too much on having the deadline, when I should have shot sooner.Sarag wrote:Yeah the deadline rule is fine. It shouldn't ever come up, but you need the deadline to be meaningful for town. Locking the thread doesn't force the gun bearer to make a decisionnow.
Actually maybe these kind of games should have shorter deadlines. Although I think 3 weeks is too long in normal games anyway.