Mini 891 - British Comedy Mafia (Game Over)
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Hey, folks, sorry, I've been insanely busy lately due to finals coming up. Rest assured, I'm here. Analysis will be posted later tonight.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Position on Lyman:
To me, his play can be read in one of two ways: Either as scum who is trying to use a fatalistic appeal to emotion in order to deter votes or as a frustrated townie who is annoyed at the suspicion that grew from practically nothing. Personally, I like the latter read - I can definitely sympathize with that position as it's happened to me a ton of times (Bandwagoning early against me for defending a player, for questioning the speed of bandwagons, for discussing mafia theory and for questioning the efficacy of voting without reason after discussion has started, to name a few). In all cases, I've tended to...lose my temper a bit and feel quite a lot like his posts sound. He could still be scum who's putting on a good act...but I don't feel that this is really sufficient to push for a lynch.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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- Joined: September 2, 2009
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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- Joined: September 2, 2009
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I don't really feel that the request for prods was premature. All players received a PM notifying them of the game startup, and it's been up for 3 days. The fact that it was done in a second post just means that it was more of an afterthought.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 3954
- Joined: September 2, 2009
- Location: Location, Location
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 3954
- Joined: September 2, 2009
- Location: Location, Location
Still alive, still needing to catch up. Sorry, due to finals and my other game picking up, I've not had as much time. Expect a good post within 24 hours.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Well, I didn't like the Lyman wagon either, but he's claimed, so the town should unvote regardless. His claim is one which is easy to substantiate.
Budja's play does look odd...He consistently follows the crowd and seems to be trying to agree with everyone to the point that it stands out a bit. However, I'm not really ready to vote yet - I want to hear from him before I do. Budja: Please post your thoughts on each player in the game and why you suspect anyone you suspect. The quality of your answers will determine whether I vote for you or not.
Also, I have a gut read on Locke Lamora as scum. However, since it is nothing more than a gut...it deserves no further mention.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Actually, I have a theory as to how his flavor fits...but I'm not going to post it in thread because I don't want to hand him a good fakeclaim. Just suffice it to say that I find his claim to be reasonable.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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So there would still be a role flip.
That could...that could actually be exceptionally good for the town. If it's used, we have a pro-town analyzer without concerns of conflict of interest or a, for all practical purposes, dead scum.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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This is where I got that from. "For all game purposes", I would assume, includes a role flip.Josh Lyman wrote:
No, the player I would choose would be dead for all game purposes, it says, except still being able to talk in the thread.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Oh, please. I'm no idiot...Check my recent games. I play much better than that as scum. The only reason that I've not been as good in this game is because I've had finals.
Seriously, though, I think that this is an incredibly unlikely fakeclaim....My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Pheasable? And no, it's really not. That's a really, really odd role which would be a horrible fakeclaim because it cannot be easily faked. Roleblocker, cop, tracker and doc can all be faked. However, this one cannot because, unless Lyman is roleblocked, we will know whether or not he was telling the truth.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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It's possible, but it's highly improbable. Scum have nothing to gain from a claim like this. Besides, it's testable. If he fails the test, lynch him. Pretty simple.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Lyman: Please ask for mod clarification on the flip issue.
BC: I can't predict what roles will be present, but I DO know that scum in general like safer claims that are more close to the norm. If his action doesn't go through either from the fact that he's scum or he's roleblocked, then we're no worse off lynching him tomorrow than we are lynching him today.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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...andVote: BloodCovenant. You sound like you're rather desperate to get rid of Lyman and prevent his role from achieving fruition.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Even if he has the ability, I wouldn't recommend it. The benefit of this will be having a confirmed innocent scumhunter, and I doubt that if Lyman were in that position the town would follow his lead.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Imaginality...I think he's probably our best pick, given the limited set of players that we have. Alternatively, I guess that I could always replace out and see about setting something up with a player you folks would trust more, having them replace me and then Lyman using his ability...My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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I'd maintain that while there is 1 fewer lynch if he does hit scum, the chances of him hitting scum is fairly low, while the chances of hitting correctly with a lynch if we did have a solid, confirmed player directing the town is much, much higher. Still, this is a matter of opinion...My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 3954
- Joined: September 2, 2009
- Location: Location, Location
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 3954
- Joined: September 2, 2009
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Macavity: Don't you see the value in having a really good player that we all know is town? We *know* that their arguments are not scum-driven and we can trust them to be fair and impartial. It creates a really, really useful role if used...My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Sure, go ahead and ask. I'd also urge you to use it tonight. I have a feeling that the scum will be targeting you tonight; asking you to save it is, I think, marginally scummy.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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I don't know why it wouldn't be - the treestumped player can't vote - they can only post in thread...I'm not sure how it would affect mylo.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Oh, and Lyman, ask the mod about priority, if you could - what happens if you and the mafia target the same person?My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Why? Don't forget, it also makes that player unnightkillable. That means that whoever is killed will be able to be here permanently. I wouldn't consider it to be killing a player - more like trading that player's vote for a role reveal, and really, one vote doesn't help the town THAT much, comparatively.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 3954
- Joined: September 2, 2009
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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We don't essentially kill them. The primary function of killing a player in Mafia is removing them from the game.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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...but if we were to use it on somebody crappy, then we've just got somebody crappy yammering at us for the rest of the game without any help whatsoever.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 3954
- Joined: September 2, 2009
- Location: Location, Location
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 3954
- Joined: September 2, 2009
- Location: Location, Location
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 3954
- Joined: September 2, 2009
- Location: Location, Location
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 3954
- Joined: September 2, 2009
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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That's what I was trying to say. Essentially, if I read Lyman's role right, he creates an unnightkillable confirmed townie without a vote or else kills a mafiaMy posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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The player wouldn't affect numbers for the purposes of declaring a win condition because the only reason that we have preempting win conditions is that they simply reach the conclusion which has already been decided. If that player can't vote, they couldn't vote in the hypothetical situations either, and they don't count for either side.
*shrugs* I guess that you folks do have a point, though. I still maintain that it would be useful, but will grumble silently to myself in the corner.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 3954
- Joined: September 2, 2009
- Location: Location, Location
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 3954
- Joined: September 2, 2009
- Location: Location, Location
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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I still need to finish my reread, but I do have some good points, I think.
In re: Budja, I think that the strongest argument in favor of his lynch is the fact that he really has contributed nothing to the game. In the words of David Byrne, he's "talking a lot, but not saying anything". Active lurking is one of the prime scumtells, as scum want to be active enough to avoid the lurkervote, but they don't want to stick their neck out very far, lest it be chopped off. In every post, he is agreeing with someone, in nopost does he advance a significant theory of his own.
I also am really not liking Danakillsu's vote on Josh Lyman. He's a claimed power role, and a rather confirmable one at that. To me, it's obvious that while Josh may be the play tomorrow, heis certainly not it today. Even more troublesome is the lack of any real backing for the attack on Josh other than vague accusations of a defeatist attitude. I know and understand what he is saying, but he needs to say it himself rather than having someone else make the case for him.
Vote stays on Budja for now. I could be convinced to go after Dana, though.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Well, if nothing else, it IS effectively a vig.
It's confirmable if, of course, we end up with a treestump tomorrow. If we don't, then we can lynch him.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Well, the difference between an unnightkillable doc and a treestumper is the fact that the doc is a passive role. However, there is an objective manifestation of the lumberjack role that Joshcannot fake. While he cannot be definitely cleared if that role is not used,if it is used and a treestump is created, he is cleared.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Well, as BC said, it doesn't make sense as a scum power role. Scum almost never have 1-shot vig abilities and the scum having a lumberjack role is just silly. The only side that it makes sense on is town.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Oh, sorry. IF you felt that the answer was obvious, why would you ask?
Seriously, though, I've never heard of a scumteam having a one-shot vig, even in coney island. It unbalances it too much to give them a second kill.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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- Joined: September 2, 2009
- Location: Location, Location
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 3954
- Joined: September 2, 2009
- Location: Location, Location
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Ok.....
First of all, there is no point in scum killing a stump unless the stump is a particularly good player, since killing somebody else puts them one round closer to LYLO. Second, this IS a town role because it is effectively a vig if it hits scum. We then become one vote further away from LYLO.
Second, the resultant role is a role that has been used before. See the wiki article:
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... Tree_Stump
Now, of course, this is a night action that creates a tree stump. That's fine. In fact, it's rather what we expect in theme games, as they're often plays on obscure roles used elsewhere.
Third, you've not explained why you feel that the claim is a lie, other than that you don't seem to understand what the role does. Please explain the following:
A) Why do you think that we need to lynch Lyman despite the potential for confirming him?
B) Why do you feel that his claim is fraudulent?
C) What made you suspicious of Lyman to begin with? What acts of his do you find scummy?My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Snow_Bunny wrote:
Try reading forbiddanlight's TTGL mafia.
I stand corrected. There's one instance out of almost 900 games, though....it's EXTREMELY rare. I would submit that a mafia lumberjack has never been played before and would be rather pointless.
Budja, he already nameclaimed. Also, what BC wagon?My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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It is a role that creates tree stumps - I took the loss of the night action as a given with the loss of the vote and the other effects that it has on the player. Regardless, my point still stands that this isnotthe sort of role that would normally be given to the mafia.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Chinaman: So, let me get this straight, your first argument is "He may be telling the truth, but the mafia may make it so that it looks like he's lying, therefore we need to lynch him before they can do that?" Honestly.
In response to B, if it is used as a vig would be used - against scum - it can be useful in a pro-town fashion. Originally, I thought it would have value if used against a pro-town player - I was envisioning a particularly good scumhunter who would be confirmed and unnightkillable and who would thus be able to lead the town. Unfortunately, since the stump can still be NK'd, there's no real point in that. Still can be used against the mafia, though.
I was hoping you had something better than to tell me to look back at your posts. Since you haven't, I'll have to refute each of your points one by one.
Your first point against Josh is potential buddying with Snow and distancing from Budja. I really don't see it from the posts, and I'm not sure what you're getting at.
The attempt at the mass prod is a null-tell at best. I really don't get why everybody read it as scummy other than confirmation bias.
Don't know why you even bothered to mention the soft-claim if you felt it was a null-tell, which it is, as soft-claiming town gives absolutely no more information, since nobody is going to soft-claim another faction.
Attack over an appeal to emotion - valid, but not nearly enough for the suspicion that you place on him.
Attack because it would "Get the game going". So would lynching any player. Get to the point.
Argument that he's faking lurking - this was finals season, and if I recall, he's a college student. I think it's wholly understandable.
Everything else is you not understanding the role or arguing that the claim is fake.
You really have not established enough evidence to support the lynch of a claimed player and have desperately tunneled him since your third post. Every post with the exception of two has been an attack on him, and to me, that reads like scum going after someone that has had a small bandwagon against them, then urging it forward.
I am not voting for Lyman today, and I honestly don't care what you have to say. He may be mafia, but he's claimed a town power role, and I feel that we should at least give him the chance to confirm, no matter how slight it might be.
____
Deathsauce, I'd argue that it's even more unlikely with another win condition. The only other common win conditions are lyncher, survivor, cult and jester, and it wouldn't make sense with any of those. Further, his play has been inconsistent with lyncher, jester and survivor.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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I want him to use it because otherwise, we're going to lynch him and, if he's telling the truth, it's a mislynch. Here are the potential outcomes:
A) He hits scum - Success!
B) He hits town - Sad, but he's confirmed and we have one less suspicious townie
C) He's roleblocked - We lynch him anyway
Either way, the net loss for the town is equal in B and C, and there is a chance of A, which is a huge improvement.
Further, I don't consider defense of someone else to be a scumtell. I do it in practically every game that I'm in because I find that the vast majority of mislynches are done for crap reasons. Therefore, I consider it my duty to poke holes in any case that I consider to be weak because, in my experience, those weak cases are generally mislynches. I also don't like how you're setting this up: If JL is town, then I'm scum. If JL is scum, then I'm scum. However, it seems to me that, as a townie, I have a duty to play for the good of the town, and that means working to stop lynches that I have no faith in. Therefore, I'm not going to play against my win condition just to appease you.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Chinaman: The same can be said about a regular vig, but I'd expect a vig to prove himself here. I think we can trust him not to hit any of our best players, and I think that based on that limitation, he's going to have a better chance of hitting scum.
You're right, a roleblocker is just the most common intervening act. He could have his target killed, but that would presumably show up in the night scene. He could have his target protected, but I don't know that doc protect works against it. I said "roleblocked" for ease of use because I didn't want to go through the wiki and list the 10-20 roles that could be used to stop his action from succeeding. I fail to see how this paints me as scum.
Further, it doesn't matter whether his role is bad for town or not, so long as he is town-aligned. Arguably, I think that it's better than a vig for town because if he does hit a townie, that townie is able to still contribute to the game from a confirmed perspective, yet a mafia player would have no real benefit from continued posting. Either way, you either believe his claim or not. Personally, I believe it for reasons stated earlier.
As for not listening to anything you say, I've consistently responded to your points - I've just been unsatisfied with them. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I'm not listening, it means that I think you suck at this game.
You have not responded to the tunnel vision argument, nor have you responded to my questioning of your original finding of Lyman as scum. Further, you continue to issue these directives to the town without really substantiating them. Classic scum move - spend a lot of time talking about who the town should lynch without really explainingwhy.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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What the crap, man? You might as well just go ahead and claim scum.danakillsu wrote:Even if Josh Lyman is telling the truth, he's too dangerous for me to keep around. I don't want anyone to have that kind of power. That's why my vote stays on him.
Unvote, vote: DanakillsuMy posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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What I have a problem with here is the way that he worded that. He basically said that it's too powerful of a role for a townie to have, and he'd rather nobody had it. To me, it sounds like scum trying to get rid of a power role.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Can anybody tell me why it would be a bad idea to wait on the off-chance that Lyman MIGHT clear himself tonight? Anybody? I mean, sure, it's probable that scum has a roleblocker, but there is a chance that they don't, and I think we're all going to be smacking ourselves on the forehead if we don't at least give it a shot.
Still not really seeing what he did pre-claim that was so serious either. I see some light tells, but nothing hugely serious. Certainly not compared to the fuss you folks are making about him.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Theme games do not necessarily have more power roles than non-theme games, and your reaction implies that you feel that this role is significantly different than a one-shot vig. Yes, a one-shot vig could hit town, but we generally use them anyway. D1 lynches are statistically worse than random, but lynching is the correct move.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Let me explain....
The endgame happens when mafia are equal to or outnumber the town because there is no point to playing out a finished game. The Mafia has enough votes to end the game and kill off every townie. So, for example, a situation with 2 town and 2 mafia, one of which is stumped is NOT a loss for the town, it's LYLO. A situation with 3 town and 2 mafia, one of which is stumped is not even LYLO.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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No, it's solid fact. Theonlyreason that games end early due to endgaming is because the game is a foregone conclusion. Take, for example, a game in which there are 3 townies and 3 scum left:
D1 - Townies can't force a lynch on a non-scum, best they can hope for is a no-lynch draw.
N1 - Townie killed
D2 - 2 townies left, 3 mafia. Mafia force a lynch.
N2 - Townie killed
D3 - 1 townie left, obviously lynched
Instead of going through all of that, we end the game early because the game has reached a foregone conclusion. If the mafia member has no vote, it would make no sense to count them towards endgame totals becausethey have no voteand thus cannot create a situation which would make the game a foregone conclusion.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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China, I seem to notice two threads in your arguments that I think are getting a bit too blurred. On the one hand, you seem to be saying that you don't believe the claim. On the other, you seem to be saying that you believe the claim but are arguing for a policy lynch? Do you think you could clear up this confusion a bit?My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.-
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