Mini 986: Beatles Mafia (Game Over)

[Shadow Dancer]

Wow, this has already begun and no one informed me about it. Shame on you.

Original Roll String: 1d11

1 11-Sided Dice: (4) = 4

[Shadow Dancer]

/vote muh

[Shadow Dancer]

I always like to try out new things. So:

@TheSkeward: Do you like your current role more than playing town?

@ ekiM: Since this is a Beatles game: What is your favorite Beatles song? And how do you like the song in your role PM?

@inHimshallibe: What is your opinion on Karma being mafia, depending on your role PM?

@Anon: If you had to lynch one player in this game only based on their user name, who would it be and why (no lynch is no option here). That being answered, if you were scum and had an instant day kill, whom would you hit?

@Karma: After inHimshallibe answered my question - What do you think about his accusation?

@VasudeVa: Another beatles question: In your opinion - Which one of the four Beatles is the most likely to be scum? Which one of them can you best identify with?

@Zang: Do you prefer playing as town, scum or SK? Would you, right now, prefer to swap your role PM with muh316's one right now?

@Scott Brosius_ Tell me precisely with which probability are you scum? With what probability am I?

@danakillsu: If you received a live hand grenade right now and had to hand it over to some one in your next post or it would kill you - whom would you hand it or would you detonate it on yourself? Also: Would you consider a no lynch if you find no suspect D1?

@MonkeyMan576: Beatles question number three: As you might know, when you listen to a beatles song backwards you can hear scummy messages. Which message did your role PM song leave you about your chances to survive this game?

@muh316: Assuming you'd like to play this game as scum? Would you accept Zang's offer?

[Shadow Dancer]

I'm still here. Site move and marathon day absorbed the time I had scheduled for my first analysis. I have no time to properly read the threat now. I'll post a wlk through analysis either tomorrow or Saturday. Please excuse the inconvenience, I'll certainly show this game the attention it deserves soon.

[Shadow Dancer]

OK, sorry. It's definitely gonna be Saturday.

[Shadow Dancer]

no dice, no post numbers, and everything in this ugly blue. So far I hate the new layout, but it's still under construction, so I hope it'll be alright soon...

Finished my runthrough any way... Not too meaningful, though. Really little interesting content so far, sadly...

page1:

ekiM: My aspiration is not to do any kind of rolefishing...

page2:

Zang: And more rolefishing accusation Did I ask for your role?

SB: Yo have your statistics right. +1 for usefulness

skew: OK, I got it now, keep flavor out of RQs... But that's hardly "enormous". If you read the threat You should have realized that I have a meta for dice voting, btw.

muh: Fail at statistics

Anon: More hate I haven't ever seen non silly RQs as I have never seen non silly RVs. But

not

starting the game would have been the silliest, eh?!

dana: defensicveness: Of course - all your posts basically only contain justification for your previous behaviour... But RVS is hardly over, so likely slow town. Also: How is a random vote followd by a cross OMGUS a "case"?! Slightly scummy so far.

page3:

Skew: I do not like people making posts like that. If you point out other people's two word sentences as scum tells, you should at least explain that a bit so we can decide if this is extremely intelligent or extremely dumb...

VV: OK, if this is not scummy it's at least leaning anti town: A VI heavy game is fun?! Only for scum, I guess. I like to play with VI minds as scum, but right now I do not want them in my team...

page4:

Anon: I seriously do not get how you can tell anything with even a glimpse of definiteness... This game gives

me

headaches so far... No content that could be any useful before maybe D2.

SB: Only player who's posts I really like so far. Not because of actual scum hunting but because he's got his logic straight... He's the only one so far I wouldn't frivoulously D1 lynch...

dana: Please try to not take things personally. That's always bad in mafia and the most common first step on the way down to VI.

Dana&karma: I definitely need to read this confrontation in ISO, just to make sure It's not just the hollow bubble it seems to be so far.

skew: Something's in his posts that I do not like... Only am I not sure I can point my finger on it... Maybe it's his chainsaw style defense of dana...

page5:

VV: Trying to take the initiative in this game. Nice.


-----
As I said - rather lean so far... I need some ISO reading to decide on suspects. I am too tired, more to come tomorrow...

[Shadow Dancer]

OK, dana, that you now do the same - well, I'll call it misinterpretaion for now - on me is something I absolutely do not like! Where do I say I want to lynch

any one

?!

[Shadow Dancer]

Sorry, I had some connection and time problems lately, but it's fine now.

OK, dana, that you now do the same - well, I'll call it misinterpretaion for now - on me is something I absolutely do not like! Where do I say I want to lynch

any one

?!

SB: Only player who's posts I really like so far. Not because of actual scum hunting but because he's got his logic straight... He's the only one so far I wouldn't frivoulously D1 lynch...

How about right here? SB is the only one you WOULDN'T lynch. And way to prove that you're scummy by completely ignoring the other things I said in response to you.

OK, I see your point. Really bad choice of words on my part. Lets change it this way: Lynching SB for any reason that is not really really convincing that he is actual scum (which hardly happens D1) would be frivolous.

How have I taken things personally, exactly? I haven't said anyone insulted me, personally. I stated that MonkeyMan baselessly said I wasn't scumhunting, but I never thought of it as a personal attack. And once again, unless you're an alt, I don't know where you get off saying I'm going down the road to VI.

I am not saying you are on the road to VI already, I just said that I see you (over)interpreting things i a way that suggests that you are somehow personally involved. I think it would help if you tried to keep an eye on yourself in this regard.

I also noted this one:

No, don't worry, it pretty much is a "hollow bubble". But it does show that I'm not a VI and don't need to resort to personal attacks, OMGUS, or AtE's.

So if you see no useful content in that whole argument yourself and also claim to have no secondary (p.e. personal) reasons to keep that debate up, then, according to you, you have only knowingly and willingly created a huge bubble of empty posts to appear to town in one way or another. That is kinda scummy, don't you think? I'll keep it in mind until later, I'll have a look at the muh and monkey cases first.

[Shadow Dancer]

Hmm... Just from ISOing them I can see nothing prominent. monkey has really little content, I think I have to reread everything in context. Will do it tomorrow.

[Shadow Dancer]

Sorry, I need my attention for newbie 958 right now. Deadline is Tuesday. After that I'll have the time to finally really contribute to this game.

[Shadow Dancer]

OK, I'm catching up.

[Shadow Dancer]

Sorry for missing the DL. I'm done with my reread now. I haven'd found anything clearly scummy so far However, there were quite some people (including myself ) I'd like to hear more from, with InHim dead, I'm most interested in muh right now.

vote muh

@muh: I think you gave a scum list without any explanations (or only one on Karma if I rember correctly) on D1. I'd like to hear about the reasons for every one on your list.
Also: How does it make Zang any less scummy in your eyes that he was not on the monkey/star waggon? It was definitely an easy possibility to earn some townie credit, could very well be scummy.

@SB: So what's helpful and why don't you do it. I'Ve seen you lying low for the whole D1 now. What about some opinion about other players or something?

@VV: There is lurking and there is lurking (with a difference in motivation behind it), increasing the activity level and forcing every one to give some stances is definitely helpful, any way.

[Shadow Dancer]

I read it. Twice. What about Karma and InHim?

And again: How could Zang townie have known monkey is not town? He was off the waggon for metagaming reasons (SB deserves chance to catch up), btw, only later he claimed he also doubted she's scum. Interesting twist, by the way. I think all that points more towards scummy Zang.

unvote. vote zang

I'll try and ISO read him a bit more later this evening.

[Shadow Dancer]

Hmm... I do not really like anything SB posts at the moment... Seems all far stretched and forced to me. Enaugh to justify a

FoS SB

by now.

[Shadow Dancer]

Agreed. I think neither scum nor SK would have killed InHim. Unless some one can prove he crunbed doc so scum could have found that I won't believe scum sacrificed some one who was a reoccuring key suspect during all of D1.

[Shadow Dancer]

[sarcasm on]Thanks for all those WOTs, skew, how pointless of you.[/sarcasm off]

I also consider Karma by far the more suspicious part in that confrontation, but there's no need to repeat all of it, especially without further comments.

@VV: Agreed on the first two points, but how is SK speculation scummy?

@Zang: You realize you are contradicting yourself, right? Again: Please lay down to me your reasons for being off the monkey/star waggon.

I'm inclined to believe muh for now.

@Anon: I was not lurking, I just had no time to actually play this game.

[Shadow Dancer]

LOL, what kind of word is "nullerer"...

to 1.) I agree for the most part, muh's behaviour seemed not obviously scum motivated to me. He is a "why not" lynch candidate at best, definitely not a sure or well justified lynch. That makes a quick lynch an even worse idea than it would be any way.
so 2.) is basically a null tell. Might be scum who tries to be off a waggon, but any way it is standard play to hold any eventual uncaring townie from accidently quicklynching muh and dicouraging scum to go for a bold quicklynch.
3.) I think the lineup speculation was started by others. Important point was: Who killed InHim. I agree it was neither SK nor mafia. I think it is too early speculate about roles and scum teams more specifically, however.
4.) I still don't get this one.

[Shadow Dancer]

@Zang: Then I did not understand you correctly. Please explain again - in your own words - for what exact reasons you resigned from the monkey waggon.

[Shadow Dancer]

So you're pure OMGUS voting without the ambition to actually catch scum?! See: You can point out things without the need to immediatelly vote some one. I just did it you can, too

[Shadow Dancer]

@muh: But you said that there is not case to "make an impact on". You better get your reasoning straight.

@zang: So you weren't on the star waggon for meta reasons:
i) Not judging Star on sth. monkey did (why not?)
ii) Giving Star a chance to catch up (fair enough, I generally agree on this one)

But later you stated explicitely that you did not think Star was scum!

Proof (straight from zang's ISO):

Tommorow we lynch inhim.

Because I'm pretty sure she's town.

Because i have no reason to suspect her as scum and it seems scum driven.

Note: This was before Star officially flipped town.

I'll leave that matter unresolved for now, I think I need to think about what it means a bit myself... But if it wasn't already clear any way:

FoS Zang

[Shadow Dancer]

@muh: Classic - "

Something

happened - see I

am

right!!!" - not.

[Shadow Dancer]

look at the reasons why I said I thought she was town, they are related to the reasons for me being off the wagon.

eh... What? She did not catch up so she had to be town?

[Shadow Dancer]

Where's Ekim, btw?

[Shadow Dancer]

*Facepalm* Of course he's dead... I just realized he had not posted for a while. However: SB, why do you consider "town slips" bad? It is always good if you have solid evedence for some one else being town.

@VV: I still think your points 2...4 are rather stretched and can be seen one way or the other, i.e. null tells, even in combination.

What do you think about Zang and Karma, btw. (and any other player than muh and/or Scott).

I agree on your opinion about muh. However, I honestly don't think that openly and repeatedly calling him VI will do any good.

about setup speculation: I do not think it ever really helps, at least not as early as D2 with 0 scum dead...

Also

unvote. vote Karma

. I wanna hear something from him. Now. I think he deserves some focus of his own.

[Shadow Dancer]

Because they are very easy to fake.

Well... That's as right as it swiftly avoids the core of m question... Your own assessment was "townie slip" not "fake townie slip"...
And I also want you to no longer avoid the case againdt you.

[Shadow Dancer]

The meat of my case is #1. Do you disagree with my case on Scum Brosius?(pushing for lynchbait.). Why?

I fully agree on 1). I'd just abandon the other points because they're all really meh... Not really scum tells, easily explainable as townie behaviour and thus trivialy invalidated. They are also not directly linked to 1.) Let's concentrate on the important things, which are:
1. Scott going - and tunneling - for an easy lynch target.
2. Scott avoiding any real discussion about his case.

[Shadow Dancer]

No, she was town because she wasn't given the chance to catch up.

OK, you

really

do not make

any

sense at all. Can you give me

one

good reason why Star's meat world issues should have any correlation with her being scum or town?! The majority of town decided she shouldn't have the chance or rather had it and did not use it. You can have another opinion, but all that has nothing to do with Star's allignment...

[Shadow Dancer]

Because they are very easy to fake.

Well... That's as right as it swiftly avoids the core of m question... Your own assessment was "townie slip" not "fake townie slip"...
And I also want you to no longer avoid the case againdt you.

Are you reading the thread? You don't know who has died, and I clearly responded to all of VV's points. I'm not going to respond to them every time he repeats them.

Interesting that you point me out for what you consider "avoiding" a question, yet VV blatantly won't give an opinion about anyone but me and you and you ignore that.

First of: Hypocrisy - You do not give any opinion about any one but muh. And I do not like the muh case at all. What is your opinion about VV or me, btw? What do you thing about Karma and Zang?

As I said I do not care at all about VV's points 2...4. All I care about is you tunneling on an easy target muh case.

@mod: Would you kindly prod or replace Karma. His last post is like four days ago...

[Shadow Dancer]

Yeah, finally a waggon I can support. And Karma seems to have flaked out, any way.

Unvote. Vote Zang

[Shadow Dancer]

I thought muh was your #1 scum read, dana?!

[Shadow Dancer]

I did not constantly say that she was town, I said it once before she was lynched. And how are my reasons not good? I had no reason to think that she was scum and the fact that nobody was listening to that made me to believe that the wagon was scum driven, which would mean that she was probably town.

So if you honestly thought the waggon was scum driven you'd have one or another solid case against scum on that said waggon by now, right?

[Shadow Dancer]

@SD
And I said that...when exactly?

My bad, you did not. You already slightly distanced yourself from the muh waggon while you were sstill on it.

[Shadow Dancer]

@Dana: ;..(

I've been to busy defending myself.

Every one listen: Zang's been too busy having no point to have a point. @_@

[Shadow Dancer]

So both my top suspects have gone mia... ó_ò

Hmmm...

It's become so quiet suddenly... I hope it's just the calm before the storm -.-

[Shadow Dancer]

Mod, please

prod

/replace Karma and whoever needs it.

[Shadow Dancer]

@VV: Bad time to hammer. Too many V/LAs, including mod.

[Shadow Dancer]

I wouldn't say that in your position. You so far haven't adressed anything that happened recently. What do you think about SB, Karma and Zang, for example?

[Shadow Dancer]

Hmmm.... Skeward gives me headaches... I personally find his impudent attack on Star disgusting... But that was all meta gaming related....

@Skeward (this also applies to VV, as far as I can remamber): You seem to have prior experiences with Zang in another game. What was his role there and what do you think about Zang's behaviour in this game compared to that game?

[Shadow Dancer]

@VV: What was that hammer talk about, btw? According to the official vote count Zang is at L-2. Would you vote him now? I wanna hear his claim now.

[Shadow Dancer]

Damn, waggon losing momentum... But wait, we have a claim.

Zang's claim is a nice role, but not what the wiki lists as hider... So I'd rather not believe it. There is also no reason for Zang to conceal his song and lyrics if he is claiming, but he's doing it any way which most likely means he could not make up anything in time...

Vote confirmed

[Shadow Dancer]

I'd say it's lynch and see now.

[Shadow Dancer]

But I definitely want Karma's replacement to catch up and contribute one thing or another before the lynch. There're still five days until DL, plenty of time.

[Shadow Dancer]

Give you one night? To make up some song that you now - again - failed to provide. LOL.

OK, any way. If you are speaking the truth, we could confirm you or get scummy you by having you hide behind another suspect and viggin you (provided there's a non 1-shot vig) and then see who dies... However - you could still be a mafia hider. Also we would need three suspects (you, one to lynch and one for you to hide behind) that town agrees on for this.

I tell you this: I think with you, Karma and possibly SB I'm in to risk it, we can lynch you tomorrow, any way. But only if Karma is replaced soon, I do not want a absent player or a fresh replacement who had no chance to defend him/herself to be lynched or vigged.

To our vig out there (with the InHim kill I'm sure there's one), if you are one shot, I'd say you should claim now, so we know that we cannot vig tonight. A one-shot vig who used his shot is generally most useful as confirmable townie, any way.

@Zang: Provide your song and lyrics in your very next post, or I'll just try to have you lynched instead.
I did not oppose Star's weak claim because I was absent at that time, so you can hardly us that against me now.

[Shadow Dancer]

And, btw, I thought it's common sense to claim any flavour that comes with your role because if you have to claim you want your claim to gain as much credibility as possible.

[Shadow Dancer]

He said he was Help!

Oh, damn I found it on the other page... Nevermind.

unvote. vote karma

[Shadow Dancer]

havingfitz replaces Karma, effective immediately.

hi, fitzm please catch up soon!

[Shadow Dancer]

Gah. Sorry, guys. I'm here. Check my postage elsewhere to confirm that my disappearance was not game-related - I'm just dealing with a lot of college shit right now.

It looks like Zang's at L-2. I thought he was scummy before, and failing at fakeclaiming hider pretty much seals the deal.

Unvote; Vote: Zang

No. That's definitely wrong. Let's try a gambit.

We don't need to lynch him quite yet though as we can use him to our advantage. We can have him hide behind a scummy player, and if he dies and flips hider, he basically serves as a cop for us.

[quote="SB"SD beat me to it. For what its worth, its a great role for scum to claim as they know they aren't going to die at night. Unlike a cop/doc claim, Zang will not raise suspicion if he survives the night.[/quote]

I also realized this one:

No, A hider is the opposite of a bodyguard (a hiders target dies instead of the hider). I haven't used my ability yet but i wouldn't target somebody scummy because if I do I would die.[/Zang]

So my vig idea likely won't work as I wanted it to Unless if Zang's vigged while hiding behind scum (and thus dying) the vig shot is still redirected to the scum.

@Karma: If you hide behind scum, are you just killed or does your skill work normally otherwise, i.e. killing attempts on you are redirected to the scum you hide behind? If your role PM does not adress this case properly, PM the mod about it.

Alternative plan: Town agrees on two top suspects. One is lynched, the other one destined as Zang night target. Zang hides behind that person and that person is also vigged (better than investigation, because it openly reveals identity without need of a cop or vig claim), so we know tomorrow if he was scum.
If target is mafia and Zang survives, he must be scum.
If target is mafia and Zang dies, we did not waste a lynch on him.
Problem is, if target is town... So we better find a good kandidate... Most people seem to agree on Karma right now. We still need a lynchee though.

With the InHim kill I take it for granted that we actually have got a vig. ONly problem (especially with a confirmed 2-shot doc) is that he might be one-shot. I'd like every townie to confirm that he/she's not one-shot vig, any way. I begin: I'm not a one-shot vig.

I jus realize I do not like this version very much. I still post it, because it's the best I can come up with right now. I'd really appreciate to hear better ideas,

[Shadow Dancer]

Why anon?

[quote="Zang]I think he might be scum.[/quote]

That's a lousy excuse of a reason, or rather: It's no reason at all, because it should be clear that you consider some one you vote possible scum...
To make my point clear: The precise question you'd have to answer is: Why do you think Anon might ne scum?!

[Shadow Dancer]

Why anon?

I think he might be scum.

That's a lousy excuse of a reason, or rather: It's no reason at all, because it should be clear that you consider some one you vote possible scum...
To make my point clear: The precise question you'd have to answer is: Why do you think Anon might be scum?!

[Shadow Dancer]

It really shouldn't be up to him, it should be up to the town.

?!!?!!

[Shadow Dancer]

[...]In the meantime, if there is anything worth bringing to my attention I'd appreciate the heads up.

-You better find a good reason why we shouldn't lynch you. Presenting at least two solid cases against other player is a good and appreciated way to do this in the current situation.

-Tell us what you think about Zang's claim.

-Suggest a better solution for the current situation than mine (if you can).

-Tell us if you are a one-shot vig.

That's all I can think of right now.

[Shadow Dancer]

@SB: If you mean that town should decides Zang's night action: Of course, if he's townie he's expected to be our tame little zombi now

[Shadow Dancer]

Also, Shadow Dancer is extremely active. Are you voting me because Karma was not posting or because Karma was scummy?

I find him scummy, other players also find him scummy. Before I sumarize why, I'd like to hear your opinion about Karma's play, though.

Who is 'we'? I'll provide cases on whomever I find suspicious; whether that be one two or three cases+ is TBD.

The 2++ cases are related to my proposed night strategy which requires a second possible lynchee as vig target. Again: I'm very opne to better proposition in this regard... It also still depends on the exact mechanics of Zang's claimed ability.

-Tell us if you are a one-shot vig.

Is this rolefishing or does knowing if there is a vig, and what their identity need to be common knowledge?

This is also related to my proposal. This is

not

expected to be rolefishing. I am pretty sure there's a vig in this game because of the inhim kill. I just want to make sure it's not a one kill... I should rephrase this question more precisely: I'd like every one to confirm he's not a vig with no shots left (a vig with no shots left would basically give us a confirmed vanilla, i.e. one less person to lynch and a non cop (or other PR) priority mafia night target, so not that bad).

[Shadow Dancer]

EBWODP: "one kill" = "1-shot"

[Shadow Dancer]

@muh and Anon (and every one else better too): Stop it right now, please, go back to my last post (or rather the one before that, last one was an EBWOP) and read - carefully, slowly, word by word again, what kind of claim I demanded and why. It is definitely not rolefishing what I try to do here!

And I'd really like every one to provide some ideas, how we could use Zang's claimed power best at night. The weak point about my idea (and SB's, as far as I undrstand it) is, that there's no way to confirm Zang as town in the process, unless he's killed in one way or another...

I think you mean Zang. But if I hide behind scum I'll die.

Thanks for not understanding my question... Question was: Is you dying the only effect, if you target scum, or are killing attempts firected at you still redirected to that said scum? If you don't know, your role PM (assuming it's no fake claim) does not adress this case properly, please ask the mod via PM.

@pie: Please stay as active as possible, deadline is nearing! I'd like to hear your Skew case... Sounds like you've got some interesting food for thought there... It's more of a personal antipathy thing for me right now, though...

@VV: And...? Any one else you've got an opinion about? Why are you "with Anon" now? I think you weren't particularly suspect of him any time before.

[Shadow Dancer]

My role PM did not contain a link to the game threat, so some time went by until I started wondering and search for the threat myself. Also seing me poting in another threat has absolutely nothing to do with me watching or not watchig this threat. Trying to dedicate anything remotely like this is but a major logic falacity. OYu could have not found me on ther "user browsing this forum" list, for example, but no one can really confirm that either...

And riding on pointless opening posts seldomly leads to any useful results, but try your luck, this time, if you really want...

[Shadow Dancer]

Maybe you should just finish your read before posting half-baked reads.

[Shadow Dancer]

Thanks for not understanding my question... Question was: Is you dying the only effect, if you target scum, or are killing attempts firected at you still redirected to that said scum? If you don't know, your role PM (assuming it's no fake claim) does not adress this case properly, please ask the mod via PM.

If I target scum, they will not be killed.

This answer is still a bit... inaccurate... Just tell me please: If vig targets you and you target scum, who dies, a) you, b) scum or c) both? Just say either "a)", or "b)" or "c)", please.

[Shadow Dancer]

Maybe you should just finish your read before posting half-baked reads.

Why so defensive? Did I say anything that wasn't accurate?

I'm only a few pages in so I expect my suspicions to touch on numerous players before I get done. Your "~Wow, the game has begun" post made me think of your "Where's Ekim" post.

Question for you SD...who's more likely to pay attention in a mafia game: scum or town?

In general?: From my point of view both if they want to i) survive and ii) win. Moments of inattention are just human... Singled out "scumtells" like that are worthless if you use them without regard to patterns and context... And using theses that you are impossible to back up anyhow is not looking out for scum but looking out for some one to frame... And yes: I have a "you're likely scum" mindset right now.

[Shadow Dancer]

I think I might have seen that kind of hider before somewhere(epicmafia I think..?). But it was for a survivor, not a Townie. It's pretty antiTown unless the hider is a skilled player(he's not.).

That being said: I honestly think just lynching Zang wouldn't be the worst idea. For the most part because there seems to be no way of confirming him as town that does not require to kill him... I don't think wasting an investigation on him instead would help much on town.

@SD: I'm with Anon meaning I agree with the lousy definition of a hider. Also, join me in my crusade to get rid of Scum Brosius

Didn't I tell you to stop overfocussing on SB?! Are you going to ask every si9ngle one play seperately if he'd join particularly you on one particular waggon?!?!? If I'd have to file scott right now he'd definitely be under "investigate" or "vig shot". But I'm far from sure he's scum. And so should you be as long as you can't bring up some. But I think there're quite some far better lynchees available right now.
I mostly consider SB a letdown, I'd have expected more of him.

@Fitz: Why are you focusing on SD? Also, join me in my crusade to get rid of Scum Brosius.

*Arg*... And so hypocrite said: "You're focussing on the wrong one... I have the better overfocus. I have the better overfocus! I have the better overfocus!!!! Join me, join me, join

meeeheheheheeee

..."

@muh: Hi. Join me in my.....*looks at sig*.....Jihad to get rid of Scum Brosius.

"...

MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

..."

@Scum Brosius:
In this Post: I am Anakin Skywalker from Attack of the Clones and you are Count Dooku. I am leading my army of clones to get rid of your Seperatist arse. Diescumdie, feel the power of mah lightsabeerrr. Clones, ATTACK!!

"...

I am the king of the world I am the king of the world

IIIIII!!! am!!!!!!!!!!!!![/b][/i]

[Shadow Dancer]

EBWODP: [...]But I'm far from sure he's scum. And so should you be as long as you can't bring up some new points against him...

[Shadow Dancer]

Done reading. Reads:

Town: Vasude, Shadowdancer, Muh

Neutral: Anon, Karma/HavingFitz

Scum: Skeward, Scott, Zang

-------------

Zang's tracker claim isn't great, but I'm hesitant to lynch it because 2-shot doc isn't exactly a common role either. I think the solution is this:
We lynch Scott. Zang, hide with Skeward tonight. Depending on who survives the night, we'll have a ton of information.

Accordingly,

Vote: Scott

.

I'd also be down for a Skeward wagon, but I think right now a Scott wagon has a higher chance of success. I'll post my case against Skeward sometime. Sometime is not tonight.

Please elanorate a bit more on your reads, especially on your scum reads! We can talk about night actions after we know which waggon to follow. I'm still most interested in the Skew case.

[Shadow Dancer]

EBWOP: Zang's

hider

claim isn't that great ...

Scott's shown a general lack of aggression in this game that I'm finding scummy. He throws out a good number of passing suspicions but never chases them down, which is common cover-your-ass scum play day 1. A good portion of his talk covers mafia theory rather than scumhunting. I skimmed his ISO in a few other games, and he tends to play much more aggressively as town than he has played here. Relatedly, he fills the gaps by questioning other people rather than offering his own opinions, which I consider telling.

There are a few other posts that I found unrelatedly and individually scummy. For example, his response to pressure was to say "But look at VV! He's scummy TOO!" which sounds like frustration and didn't sit well with me.

You back up my feeling about scott... I am very inclined to follow you on this case.

[Shadow Dancer]

Hadn't thought about that. Like it. So whom do we lynch

today

?

[Shadow Dancer]

Lol SD. XD. I seem to have forgotten about you. Don't worry, you'll join the next crusade! Where we will be successful(hopefully!).

---

I have provided reasons why Scott is the better 'focus'. I have provided reasons why muh isn't a good 'focus'. Hello not reading my posts.

Oh, damn it... I'm not talking about muh X_X

[Shadow Dancer]

Thanks Zang. One more question: Normally if the person targeted by the hider is NKed in any way, the hider also dies. Is this the case with your role, too?!

[Shadow Dancer]

Interesting... That means my original idea (doubling a vig shot) could still work somehow... On the other hand this makes anouncing Zang's night target openly and in advance a rather bad plan for town - if both turn out town mafia essentially got a double kill...

However, id Zang claims his target after the night and we then lynch Zang, we've at least a chance to confirm a townie... However, if Zang dies in this case and turns out genuine hider, we don't know who was the mafia he targeted

Hmhmhmhm....

[Shadow Dancer]

I am also sceptical because geting any definite info out of Zang is like pulling teeth, however, he's either lying or claimed a massively anti town role. I'm very willing to lynch him right away, just to avoid that any night action he might do causes any collateral damage! If he flips scum - even better.

[Shadow Dancer]

Even if we constrain Zang's possible choices to 2 or 3 people, mafia will just NK of those who isn't scum and chances are there's still adouble kill and we still wouldn't know who or what killed Zang.

And even if we don't constrain the choice, it's very likely that Zang picks a scum read and mafia has the easier part in outguessing the other side...

Seriously, I consider Zang more a risk than anything els right now... He's expandable any way... I say: Let's lynch him...

Also I don't trust you, SB, and since you are pushing towards keeping Zang alive and have him execute l some gambit, I'm even more inclined to think you're actual scum, no matter what Zang flips...

We need to agree on a distinct plan now.

Summary of Zang's claims:

Rolename: "Help!"
Role: modification of the hider
how it works:
i.1) Zang hides behind townie C, non of them is tarteted with a kill ==> nothing happens
i.2) Zang hides behind townie X and is targeted with a kill ==> townie X dies
i.3) Zang hides behind townie X and townie X is targeted with a kill ==> X

and

Zang both die
ii)Zang hides behind mafia ==> Zang dies right away, no other effects

I want every one to give his opinion what we should do with Zang based on this:
- Just lynch him right now
- Have him vigged (if possible) tonight, have him target no one
- Have him claim his target today and vigging that target, hoping one of both is scum
- Give him a night, let him claim his target tomorrow and then lynch him
- Or something else/some better plan

[Shadow Dancer]

EBWOP: townie C = townie X, obviously....

[Shadow Dancer]

But:
- esp claimed "standard" hider
- esp's claim wasn't one-shot, his lynch was ensured to confirm two townies in case of a mislynch

Another thing that perplexes me: We have a confirmed 2-shot doc. Why should there be a hider, definitely a weaker role, restricted to only

one

shot?! Even if I'd dare to guess wildly that this game revolves around roles with limited availability - this doesn't make much sense for me...

[Shadow Dancer]

We have no way of knowing whether there is a vig or sk, correct? And though that is highly likely with the 2 kills N1, if there was one (of either) we have now way of knowing if they only had one-shot (very possible in this game with the known 2-shot doc role).

So two of your options rely on there being a non-mafia killing role that still has their capability and is willing to play along. Which…if they did still have their kill ability…mafia would probably really like them to reveal themselves.[/quote]

That's why I wanted every one to confirm they're not a one-shot vig. An SK who wouldn't play along in this could not claim vig later which makes him easily identifieable by trackers and the like, so even an SK would likely play along... As long as it's not Zang or who he hides behind...

If Zang is in fact scum…which indications point to…there are too many ways for them to manipulate a kill IMO to make him look good or implicate others. If we give him a small list of players to choose from, and let’s say there are 1+ scum on the list, whose to say Zang doesn’t hide behind anyone and just clears one of his scumbuddies? Then we carry on in the game confirming two scum as town and all is lost. Assuming three scum to start with, we are two mislynches away from losing…I don’t think now is the time to be trying to manipulate someone we already think is scummy to prove he (and/or another player) aren’t scum. If we started with two scum we have a little more wiggle room for error but not much.

That's why we'd lynch Zang or his target tomorrow or have them vigged tonight. Death gives us a trustworthy, hence confirmed, role revelation. Our only problem is, that losing two more townies without hitting scum is pretty much "gg" for town.

[Shadow Dancer]

QFT. Zang needs lynched. He's likely scum, and if he's not he's a VI with an antitown role.

Well spoken? So why didn't you vote? Would've been only L-2.

However, I'm very willing to vote Zang and even hammer him, if town agrees. But I definitely want every one to show up and give his/her opinion before.

[Shadow Dancer]

So who isn't?! Muh, VV, are you still out there?! I'd also like to hear an up to date opinion from pie.

[Shadow Dancer]

Hmmm... I accept that... Should there be another cop, do not counterclaim until tomorrow. Two shot role seems to fit the theme, but that's easily faked... However, being a cop is a halfway satisfactory explanation for Scott's rather restrained play...

So... fitz now? Or maybe skew? I'd say rather skew than muh... But maybe I should rethink my opinion of muh now...

Seems like

confirm vote fitz

for now...

I think I'll join whichever waggon gets a majority tomorrow... DL is nigh, very nigh

Let's hope the best...

[Shadow Dancer]

THIS!
THREAT!!
DEFINTELY!!!
NEEDS!!!!
MORE!!!!!
ACTIVITY!!!!!!

NOW!!!!!

[Shadow Dancer]

OK, VV, I am liking your play less and less...

Isn't it a bit too late to start an Anon waggon?! We won't get an Dl extension, would we?

@PJ: WOulD wE?!

I'm not sure about muh... But by process od elimination, he seems more liekly to me now...

I should defininetyl reread Anon's and Skew's ISOs now....

However, I think Karma/fitz is a sst candidate for lynch now... Since DL is really nigh now, let's go after him, so he's got a chance to claim before the hammer!

[Shadow Dancer]

But PJ is very strict on that! So we better make a descsion.
And It'd be awesome if you'd just propose someone to lynch now instead of listing your town reads.
It is not so imortant what you're

agaijnst

but what you're

for

right now.

[Shadow Dancer]

Wild guess after reading some ISOs: Karma/fitz is scum, VV is possibly scum (I had ), not sure about muh snad skew... Anaon seems quites townish to me... I'll try to stretch and arrange my thoughts into some solid cases, but I think I won't be able to do this before D3. Just wanted to blurt it out now, for the case I'm NKed.

Any way, I think Karma is the best lynch , any way.

[Shadow Dancer]

No, Zang you won't hide behind any one. That would give scum an easy chance to double kill.

[Shadow Dancer]

fitzm, skeward, Zang waggon is over, you still vote for him, deadline is very close ahead - and you're absent... That's just plain bad...

Also, where's pie?

[Shadow Dancer]

Lylo with two identified scum and a cop with two investigations to confirm townies or find a third scum is a very good position for town!

[Shadow Dancer]

I'm still on standby for the Karma waggon... Reasons have been pointed out by others enaugh, my main concern is how Karma slipped off Dana... That was fishy as hell...

And I voted for leading waggon Zang, so you're wrong, besides that having my own opinion is not exactly a bad thing, is it?

[Shadow Dancer]

[...]...[...]

[Shadow Dancer]

Best play for Zang si to do nothing at all!

Hmmm... Muh or Anon?!?!?! I do not like this at all.

Unvote. Vote muh

[Shadow Dancer]

He si one shot, of course he can do nothing at all...

[Shadow Dancer]

No one will try to kill Zang, any way. If SB isn't NKed, I'd be wondering... However, if they try to kill Zang, we at least have him confirmed and that also helps us confirm scott... Redirecting that kill to whom ever won't help...
If he hides behind scum, we wouldn't know who it was and just lose a confirmed townie.
If he claims his target now and hits town, scum's got a double kill.

[Shadow Dancer]

Hmmm... No surprise here, but a really long deadline exceedance... Maybe we should look out for players that where V/LA over the last few days.

Any way, it's LyLo now, I think we should full claim now, starting with the most scummy players. I nominate fitz. Other opinions, thoughts, ideas?

[Shadow Dancer]

@pie: You're right about Zang. Let him make a proposal. He should definitely claim last (though I don't think - I don't hope, though he still lives, so it doesn't matter any way - he has anyting interesting to claim).

@fitz: I never was on the Starbucks waggon and missed the deadline due to RL stuff and a critical situation on my other game. That was definitely anti-town of me, but not neccessarily scummy. Any way, in the context you want to put it it is definitely just out of place...

I also do not get your thesis at all.

You
Zang was obviously scummy, I asked him lots of question on D2 to determine what he was really trying to tell, and his answers wheren't very convincing, that could very well have been a clumsy attempt to avoid astance, though I rather filed him under VI, if you really want further details on the Zang case, I'd have to reread it myself because Zang's off my radar as confirmed townie for a while now.

ABout you and Karma: Karma had that argument with Dana. First he was insisting on his points as if to categorically avoid any inconsistencies, just to then, whne public opinion shifted towards dana's sider, retract in an obnoxiously fishy way, even bluntly trying to earn town creds for that whole bubble (I see now me vs. dana was

town on town

).
I think there where some other minor things, including lurking when suspicion was uttered about him.
And you - You haven't given me any reason to think you're town so far. There has been lots of defense, discrditing, counter attacking from your side, but I haven't seen you giving this game any significant impulse so far.

I did neither like muh nor anon as a waggon. I absolutely did not agree on the muh case and i could not see a solid case against Anon. When it came to decide whom of the two to lynch I just considered muh the more expendable one for town.

Another thing I find interesting: You coach your scummbuddies to claim VT because that seems pretty safe to you.
In our current situation I can see absolutely no townish motivation to opnely mention what you expect others to claim or which claims you would believe.
You might also be trying to discurage other townies with PRs to claim with this, btw. I smell scum.

I cannot withstand:

Vote fitz

[Shadow Dancer]

Zang: Your turn!

[Shadow Dancer]

@Anon: Aho says scum talked about what to claim. OK, it would have been just reasonable, still another play ba karma/fitz which I really dislike... Maybe you shouldn't have claimed your night actions, especially because they had both negative results, tracker is always nice for some gambit (I'll decide if I believe you tomorrow )

Any way, my turn:

Hi, town. Maxwell your friendly neighbourhoodkiller at your service

Maxwell's silver hammer, two-shot vig... Flavour text is the first/second refrain.

Damn you, petroleumjelly, for giving me an SK flavour.
And why isn't my kill flavour skull punched in?!
I asked petrol why he did not give me a third shot for the judge and he gave me answer which was not along the lines of "Cause I'm god/mod/ I can/I say so/balance reasons"... However, telling you about his answer might be considered outguessing the mod or something, so I better do not quote it... A modkill would most likely be our end.

OK, my night actions

:
InHim basically was a mistake. I sent in the kill on him first because he was the second leading suspect D1, but after my reread he seemed more like a reluctant, I'd say cautious now, townie to me... So I changed my target - or rather wanted to change it - to Karma... Guess what happened? I used an answer message to my first night action PM (in my outbox...) to send the new kill and ended up posting it to myself... I did not realize it until daybreak came and InHim was dead...
Second night I wanted to kill Karma, again, but decide against it because of the zero-margin for mistake due to the almost sure LyLo today.

[Shadow Dancer]

So, who's next, Zang?

[Shadow Dancer]

The three shots where a joke, the song has three stanzas, in every stanza Maxwell kills one victim, first his girlfriend or something, then his teacher and finnally the judge who's about to convict him...

With every two-shot claim I wonder more why Zang should be one-shot... Really strange at best, given that he has claimed by far the weekest role...
On the other hand a GF in a game where ther's only a 2-shot cop... Does not make much more sense...

My top suspect after rereading was definitely Karma, followed closely by, I think, Zang.

[Shadow Dancer]

I'd like to hear VV claim, btw.

[Shadow Dancer]

Let's do some not so convincing WIFOM - if I was SK, do you think I would have truthfully claimed my SK flavour?

[Shadow Dancer]

This is a theme game, so lot's of PRs aren't that unlikely. Also the limited shots counterbalance the sheer number, I guess.

[Shadow Dancer]

Skeward, claim!

[Shadow Dancer]

You're right, I kept up my vote for way too long already.

Unvote

.

I think fitz and skeward are both good lymches right now... However - I'd really bang my head on my desk if fitz turned out scum and we did not kill him ;\

[Shadow Dancer]

Is every one gone extinct?

[Shadow Dancer]

See it this way: If I were vig I had no chance of winning any more... If all mafia were eliminated and game is not over - guess whom you would lynch? And I am priority target for mafia now, anyway (Though they might get you first).
I could also have claimed Inhim as my top suspect and it would have been believeble, why would I claim a major screw up as SK when I did not need it?

OK, that's all still WIFOM, lynching me now would just give the victory to mafia, anyway. So lynch me, but not now! No one claimed another killing ability, so there's no possible source for the Inhimkill other than me. Since a mafia vig is very unlikely, since heavily imbalanced, lame, bastrdly etc., you can reaonably assume now that I am

not

mafia.
I also promisse (of course) to only vig by town majority opinion from now on (this should prevent me from trying to play town off against mafia for the most part).

Simply put: ;ore important than the question if I might be SK (which I'm not!) is the simple fact that I maybe am the only confirmed non-scum right now.

I share your concern about Zang (1-shot vs. 2-shot issue), only problem is that I see no plausible reason to include a GF in game with limited cop shots. But he might be some kind of GF variation, fitting the game theme, maybe he is two shot action proof (first two night actions on him cause no result) or something like that... With all the town PRs I would be astonished if all the mobsters turned out regular vanilla goons.

Other than blending in nicely with 2-shot flavour (easily faked) I do not really like your claim so far... However I've had a solid town read of you so far... But there is a question unanswered:
1. Why did you chose Pie of all the players as your 2nd night choice. Why do you think Pie is scum now?

Also, if you are telling the truth, that flavour difference between pie and karma/fitz is very interesting. Normally a negative tracking would slightly reduce the chances of Karma/fitz being sucm, but as I understand you you treat this a further indication that he might actually be scum.

Also this suggests that only one of Pie(dana) and fitz(karma) is scum. And then there was that confrontation between karma and dana at the beginning of the game, which I coulod hardly think of as scum vs. scum.
I also rather have a town read on pie, but not so much on skeward and my suspicion of VV has grown recently (I'll try to finally provide a real case tomorrow). So what makes you so sure of them being town?

And, before I forget: What is your town read of me based on, by the way?

And finnally: Who would be your top lynch right now?

[Shadow Dancer]

@fitz: Too bad, but in the current situation town can't and won't lynch me as long as scum is alive, it's as simple as that. And after that game will be over, confirming me as vig.
Your tunneling won't help you any more.

@Anon: If that's your case against pie I consider on the wrong track.
As I understood pie he meant the following:
I) We lynch scum (no danger of LyLo) -> zang targets muh or you (top suspects of pie, as I understand it, though I absolutely did and do not agree) as pseudo invstigation (that's picking up SB's idea).
II) We mislynch town -> hide behind town (this idea could have proven fatal for town, though, because Zang would likely have died one way or the other any way).

[Shadow Dancer]

Point is: Hider is a really really weak role.

You can protect yourself, yes, but no one qould try to kill you - and some on else, potentielly a town PR dies instead if some one did.
You can investigate, OK, but only by claiming your role and target in advance, the risk of hitting town and mafia abusing that to gain a double kill is just too high to make thsi a feasable choice - and even if you hit mafia, you're dead.
And it's not a killing role - a suicide role, a potentially anti town massacre role, yes, but you cannot kill, so it is no killng role.
So we've got an incredibly useless, anti-town PR role here which is, contrary to any other claimed or confirmed role, just 1-shot.

The more I think about it the more I am convinced Zang is some kind of mafia GF... But still not the best lynch for today.

[Shadow Dancer]

As explained day two, I missed that he was one-shot and reversed my decision as soon as I was corrected.

How si that your explanation for your change of opinion O_o. You obviously still do not understand that Zang, no matter if hiding behind town or scum, would allow mafia to gain a double night kill, potentially instantly ending the game.

[Shadow Dancer]

@VV: Agreed.

Off topic: And? How is it?

[Shadow Dancer]

Your hider claim is flawed, but it is at least a targeting role, so it provides you with an explanatio if you are tracked.

Also the timing is interesting: You claimed a 1-shot role after only a 2-shot role was confirmed. If it was made up, you might have picked up the limited shots not knowing that every role in this game is 2-shot.
I knew I were 2-shot, so I was critical about that.
SB had an innocent on you, so it is no wonder if he did not care about that inconsistency.
I right now think I should check for Anon's first rection to find out how trustworthy

his

claim is.

However, fact is: You claimed a role that is so incredibly horrifying anti-town that is should probably never be used and just played as VT. It is far worse than a real hider since it can only keep you alive by sacrificing another townie, possibly a better PR, and that's the best possible case.
To determine that I had to ask you question after question after question.
All this makes me think you made it all up and screwed up in the process, as it is your habit.

However, there is this confirmed innocent investigation on you - so you can only be some kind of GF or maybe an SK with additional priviliges. Since there haven't been obnoxiously many NKs and three killing roles in a game this size would anyway be far over the top I'd eliminate the possibility of an SK.
Third explanatin would a (mafia) bus driver (possibly 2-shot ) or some similar kind of spell redirector.

The reason for mafia not to claim a VT role is simple, btw: VT claims have proven to be pretty useless in keeping one alive and they also do not provide any cover if scum is caught i the act performing any night actions.
Since we have mostly VT claims now, most town PRs are more or less confirmed and Zang's claim is just so bad, I would rule out the possinility that scum got secure fake claims from the mod, btw.

[Shadow Dancer]

@Shadow...why have you only used your shot once and do you have an idea when and how you are going to use the next? Are you going to make it an agreed upon target or will you be free lancing your next kill? I ask since town should have a say in the target as a misfire would most likley be the end of the game assuming three scum currently remain.

That you ask all these questions proves the following thing:

You have not read the threat at all, else you'd know that I already answered all these questions more than accuarately.
From this it follows that all your concern about me is fake. You just use me as a diversion target to dealy your own lynch, desperately trying to frame me as SK.
You obviously have not the least interest to provide anything useful for town, your only interest seems to be to

appear

useful by "asking critical questions".
Hence, you are - with very little doubt left - scum.

[Shadow Dancer]

Actually, I begin to agree on the notion that dana vs. karma could have been a distancing manoeuvre. Far too many things in that conversation seem more like coaching and/or directed towards ending a distancing manoevre that ran a bit out of control than to hunt and pin down the other one as (potential) scum.
In fact, I realyize that my first major point of suspicion against Karma - that he sneakily tried to declare this confrontation as "town vs. town", was originally raised by dana and then just picked up by karma.
However, karma/fitz is the far better target to go for first because of all the other suspicious things he's done and is still doing. If he flips scum, we have a far better base of facts to use against dana/pie then. If he flips town it's most likely over any way, but I do not think there is a target that can seriously considered better suited to dare it than fitz.

I would support a VV or skew lynch when it came doen to it, but that might change once I finish my reread upon those two.

[Shadow Dancer]

Hmmm... I am pretty set on fitz. Every one else seems to be dangling around a bit.
ANd I think every halfway reasonable scum would have done some amount of distancing from fitz by now.

[Shadow Dancer]

OK, for the sake of it:

vote fitz

I'll be V/LA from 07/31 till 08/07. I'll try look in if I can find a possibility.

[Shadow Dancer]

I'll be V/LA from 07/31 till 08/07. I'll try look in if I can find a possibility.

[Shadow Dancer]

Omg

[Shadow Dancer]

You really, seriously lyncherd Pie?! @_@

[Shadow Dancer]

Well... I guess No one let town down like me My vig play was a plain desaster this game... And I cannot forgive myself that obvscum Karma/fitz really survived until endgame... I definitely need to reread Anon in the new light of things... Maybe there's something to learn...

@muh: What scott said...

@Zang: VI award to you. You definitely need to learn to understand and clearly define things before you post them.

[Shadow Dancer]

@Zang: Also earnestly admitting to have misread your role PM very likely would have seemed far less scummy than your deseperate attempts to reamain consistent.

[Shadow Dancer]

Damn it Zang, you still make absolutel not the least sense, completely ignore any reference to things I posted and basically contradict yourself in most absurd ways. L2uyfbbp, OK?