Mafia 1010 - Perpetual MyLo - Game Over

[Rena]

Destructor wanted you guys to have this...

Hello, Max has allowed me to send you one message about what I did today. I think my reads are decent, but ignoring this could also be just as or more useful. You can choose.

I was going to post today, but saw that Qoui had been hammered and didn't because of Rule 2.

Here's what I

would

have said in my last post before going V/LA.
In response to Exilon's 236, I voted Exilon because he was high on my scum list and I wanted to make some ground on my Exilon/Reck-tenuous-meta-experience suspicion. I wasn't getting much of a response by simply posting about it, so I thought a vote might produce more telling reactions. The only player who visibly reacted to the vote besides Exilon was Magma. I didn't reply to Exilon immediately because the vote hadn't provoked much... and thought an unexplained vote might be more provocative.

By the end of the day, I was actually starting to lean town on Reck for no reason I can put a finger on besides "vibes", and still considering Magma as possible scum, which is why Magma's reaction to Reck's theory thing "irked" me. I wasn't trying to avoid committing to a position with that statement, as Magma suggested in 237 - it actually made me stop and think. Magma says he was "questioning Reck on why he attacked NoPoint’s assertion from a theoretical position as opposed to an actual in-game position" but I read it more like an accusation:

Um how do you know that Shadow is town, and thus your position on his wagon is null?

I thought it was obvious that Reck was rebutting nop's argument based on its reasoning, which made it irrelevant in an in-game context. It seems a stretch to say Reck was implying that Shadow was town.

Magma's 237 could also easily read like a chainsaw defence of Exilon.

I cannot understand why brian would hammer. From his L-1 comment, I assume he knew he was hammering too.

I am about out of time now.
I'd be looking at Magma, Exilon, brian and DP as scum tomorrow, for reasons I've explained here and in the thread. Oh, DP because of uselessness and following my vote on Exilon.
Thief could be followed up on his comments on the SD wagon... and generally followed up in general. I do like that he responded when questioned directly.
Still a little irked by SD's comment about brian (here), but otherwise SD-town makes more sense to me.
Dunno what to think about nop.
Reck's probably town unless he's being sneaky.
mole seems very town.

Good luck!

I'm going to completely ignore his reads however, and post something good up when I actually have time.

[Rena]

We're lynching Lowell today.

Vote: Lowell

Reasons:
1) Brian's attack on him reads more like distancing than anything.
2) ISO 4 is a whole lot of noise that doesn't really justify the Magna vote at all.
3) ISO 8 reads like scum trying to make Reck doubt his read on me...
4) The "lurking is obnoxious in this game" comment is hypocritical.
5) The Lowell/brian votes seemed like a quickhammer to me.
6) Lowell is impossible to read as scum or town, so if we're going to lynch him, we really should do it now.

[Rena]

Good. Now vote.

[Rena]

Lowell...

That's an absolutely horrible defense. Try harder.

[Rena]

I'll give a proper defense when one is needed.

In other words, run him up to L-1 and he actually might start doing something.

Lowell, you think david, reck, and thief seemed like opportunists. Explain (as in, give specific examples).

[Rena]

IF we run him up to L1 we'll probably have another scumquicklynch unless he's actualy scum.
...This is too WIFOM, let's just avoid that risk.

Then he better defend himself before he gets to that point, eh?

And what's too WIFOM?

[Rena]

Bandwagons on scum with strong early momentum are usually easy because the remaining scum don't have the balls to screw themselves by opposing the wagon and defending their buddy.

Not a single vote for anyone other than Lowell, even from Lowell himself, shows that we're on the right track.

[Rena]

If you actually vote your suspects instead of encourage other people to form wagons on them, then yeah, you might make yourself a bit less of an obvscum.

[Rena]

People for the wagon and not afraid to show it: (Rena, Thief, Reck)
People for the wagon vocally, but not physically: (DavidParker, Magna)
People against the wagon: (Lowell, molestargazer, Exilon)
Lurkers afraid to take a position: (Shadow Dancer)
Everyone else: (Korashk)

Call this WIFOM if you wish, but there's no way a scum wagon happens in lynch or lose with this much agreement among players.

I missed this before.

Lowell, it's not LyLo right now. It's not really true MyLo either. So why would you suggest otherwise?

[Rena]

Magna, I didn't notice his V/LA. And I replaced destructor, not nopoint.

ATM I'm being accused of being scum BECAUSE scum voted me. So if anything scum have every reason to continue to string up townies without fear.

That's one of the reasons you're being accused of, but not all of them. Why do you feel the need to strawman the case against you? Can you not defend against it without misrepresenting it?

[Rena]

Ex, where's your vote at?

[Rena]

This day should not end so fast.
David is scum, btw. <.<

Then why aren't you voting him?

[Rena]

My quick prediction -

Now that people have started jumping of scum-Lowell's wagon alternate one will form on an easy target who turns out to be Town.

Anyone who isn't scum - keep a close eye on how votes flow from this post forward.

QFT

And doesn't anyone find it off that Lowell has reached L-2 TWICE and yet has escaped from the noose both times?

[Rena]

You can't be on a wagon if you're not voting. Also, if you've "scumhunted enough" and have already "nailed the scumteam", then why are you delaying the Lowell lynch? You've already found all the scum, so you should just be focused on lynching them, right?

And if you're just waiting for SD, then why aren't you giving him anything to come back to? No questioning, no new case, no nothing. In fact, the last post you made responding to Shadow Dancer was pretty much all nitpicky stuff...

[Rena]

Not particularly, no. I've not paid that much attention, but it seemed just like typical lowell, which isn't lynchworthy.

So scummy play is his norm which makes him not lynchworthy. Got it.

Precisely! I'm glad you understand.
His play being generally 'scummy' (in your opinion) doesn't influence his chance of being scum in this game.

...which means that it will be difficult to determine Lowell's alignment from his play alone, and thus we should look to his interactions with people. An example would be of known scum voting him early, then unvoting for no clear reason when the Lowell wagon got big. You're pretending as if Lowell having a scummy meta makes him immune from lynching.

Ex, fair enough. But I will say that I don't see how that point would make SD seem any more town/scum, regardless of what his response to it is. It just seems to me that you're stalling your scumbuddy's lynch to try to get a counterwagon on someone else...

[Rena]

So, basically, you jumped on the case founded on me voting someone to L-1, and in the process declare how awesome it is to put someone at L-1.

Where's your catchup post, Lowell? This isn't it, right?

[Rena]

Meaning that deadline is the 14th?

Lowell, I'll respond to you in a minute.

David, I don't think that I'm seeing the Lowell-Magna connection.

[Rena]

Lowell, your reads haven't changed at all. Except now, a wild Exilon has appeared on your suspect list. Why is this?

[Rena]

Wicked, the deadline is in two days.

I don't see any reason at all to post my thoughts on anyone BUT Lowell at this point because all it will do is tell the scumteam what members I've pegged, and what members I have yet to discover. I have no interest in starting any other bandwagons because I want to lynch Lowell, nor do I have any interest in telling scum if they're doing a good job or not.

[Rena]

Also, Mod? I'm pretty sure Lowell is voting for DP.

[Rena]

Those who are not voting right now, should be voting.

Those who are voting David should either start pushing his wagon, or give it up and just bus.

Those who are Exilon just need to get replaced.

[Rena]

Picking up prod, but there's not a whole lot to say.

Lowell's at L-1 again... Somebody better pull through this time...

[Rena]

Deadline is tomorrow, guys...

We need this hammer...

[Rena]

My town reads so far are David, Thief, and Wicked.

I'm pretty sure there's scum in Mole + Shadow Dancer.

I had an early town read on Reck, but I'm less sure about that now.

I'll get an opinion on Ani later.

Meanwhile, I'll start working on ISOs of my two sucm reads.

[Rena]

Let's see...

Mole's first post actually gives me a slight townie vibe; it's more of a townie mindset to not care who you're replacing and instead just want to jump straight into the game.

Mole's attacks on nopoint and SD are weak. It seems to me that he's just trying to derail the Lowell wagon... Bad ideas =/= scum.

Wait, when you dislike something, what does that mean? What's the point of bringing it up? You say you don't like nopoint and Shadow Dancer's aggression, then proceed to be extremely aggressive in your follow-up posts... That's hypocritical, don't you think?

Then, he votes Quoi for being hypocritical, and not posting reasons. The hypocritical part of the vote makes me cringe a little, but Quoi looked damn scummy to me anyways and I doubt that scum would try to pull off a three-person scum quickhammer, so I guess mole picks up some townie points here.

Mole's attacked nopoint quite a lot, but still no vote. Not scummy at this point, but I'm pointing it out because I'm guessing it might come into play later.

Comes to Lowell's rescue, yet again. Says he's going to go through the wagon properly soon. Timestamp: Monday, August 2. Promises made: Analyze the Lowell Bandwagon properly for opportunistic scum. Promises kept: None.

Odd piggyback attack off Reck's comment.

His attack on Thief is extremely half-hearted. He votes Thief for not following up on a question, which is more a pressure vote than anything. Then, in a follow-up attack, he states that the burden of proof is on Thief to provide meta of different-playing Town-Lowell and Scum-Lowell. Then, he later provides similar-style Lowell meta in response to Magna, but doesn't follow up on his attack on Thief...?

Decides that he wants to move on, makes a promise to look into brianj's connections with Lowell. Timestamp: Monday, August 9. Promises made: Look through the Lowell bandwagon properly, look into brianj-Lowell connections. Promises kept: none.

Drops case on Thief and goes to DavidParker. Still doesn't follow up on his attack on Thief though.

Ooh, I like this quote:

His posts are terrible, and for the most part, completely contentless. He has provided no reason for his _____ vote, and is just jumping on the bandwagon for the sake of it - he hasn't given decent reasons for any of his other votes either. Chances are he's just scum riding this one out.

If you take the specific vote out, you don't know who the hell he's talking about. Usually the sign of a weak case.

And when it becomes clear that Lowell is going to be lynched, mole suddenly has last-minute doubts. Seems like last-minute distancing to me.

"Votes on me are to be expected."
I don't like that quote. It's mostly gut, but I definitely don't like it. I'll figure out why when I have a little more time.

"I think those going for my lynch could very well be opportunistic scum."
Who? Do you think that everyone voting SD right now are town?

Running out of time, but mole looks pretty scummy in the end... I'll drop a

Vote: molestargazer

for now, with a promise to give a summary and actual analysis tomorrow. I also might look into SD, but I doubt I'll have that much free time...

[Rena]

Responding to Wicked's case and mole's defense. Wicked first.

First of all, overjustification? I've never heard of that scumtell before. It's always better to give too much reasoning than too little. Of course, unless you're trying to say that he's reaching. If that was the case, then you had better rip apart his logic as opposed to saying "he gave too much justification".

The bolded is the part I have a problem with. He states that no-lynching could be beneficial yet decides here that lynching somebody is the way to go all in the same post.

This is a bit of a misrep. He said a real lynch THREAT, as in... forming a wagon. He didn't actually suggest that we lynch somone.

Another bad suggestion from Shadow Dancer.

Um... what? Do explain how wagoning suspicious players then deciding whether to lynch them or not based on their responses is not how 90% of mafia games function.

4. Switches over to the Lowell bandwagon. A very very very bad vote. First of all, its an opportunistic vote. Second of all, the Lowell bandwagon was the alternative to the Shadow Dancer bandwagon, so it makes sense for Shadow Dancer to switch over as scum if he was interested in his survival.

Opportunistic vote... on scum?
If SD was an alternative wagon to Lowell, who is scum... Don't you think that his wagon was SCUM DRIVEN? And that scum wouldn't be stupid enough to drive a wagon on one of their fellow scum?

Labelling your last points 1,2,3,4,5.
1) How is adding a lot of justification to votes scummy?
2) Explained.
3) This can be said of a lot of people.
4) His important votes, the ones that significantly pushed a lynch, or those that significantly took away from one, were just fine in my book. He voted to lynch a generally scummy townie, he didn't try to hold up the Lowell bandwagon the first time it was formed, and he hammered scum.
5) Fair enough.

[Rena]

Now mole.

Seriously? It doesn't mean it's any less valid.

But if it applies to the majority of the people playing the game, it's probably wrong.

How so?

You were pretty sure Lowell was town all of yesterday, saying that his wagon was going to fast, etc. And then, you suddenly decided that you wouldn't mind hammering with the rest of the town's approval. Certainly I don't need links in this situation...

Well, they are. I can see why people are voting me, because I look scummy for the whole Lowell thing. Does that really make me scum?

That was an extremely insignificant part of my case.
Like I said, it was something that twanged my gut. I'll probably come back to it later.

No, because DP is.
I do, however, think it's a much better wagon than mine. For obvious reasons.

Is it a wagon you're going to join? Do you not think that there's any chance of another wagon forming today?

I dread to think what an analysis is going to bring.

Good. Fear makes you sweat, and I like my scum just a little salty as they're being roasted over an open fire .

[quote="tunnelingrodentwithastronomicalaspirations"I can't see how I've been "extremely aggressive". Examples?[/quote]

...
I consider sarcasm to be aggresion. You aren't denying you've employed that particular literary device, right?

I highly doubt anyone jumped off the Lowell wagon because of my comments. I can't remember, but, really? His rescue?

You actively opposed his wagon while actively supporting his alternate wagon, giving your scumbuddies time to shuffle off his wagon.
Yes. His rescue.

[Rena]

I doubt it applies to a majority. But, whatever.

If it didn't apply to a majority, then it was pretty damn close. And regardless, you can't really expect your case to get a whole lot of traction if it applies to even a third of the game...

I definitely can't deny being a sarcastic bastard at times.
I don't consider sarcasm to be 'extreme' aggression though.

Nah, sarcasm doesn't antagonize the person it's being used against by ridiculing someone for missing the obvious, and that's certainly not one of the only ways to employ extreme aggression over the internet without being modkilled.

So, who are my scumbuddies that got off the wagon as a result of my actions?

I'll get back to you on that, actually.

[Rena]

Rena, why are you responding to my case against Shadow Dancer? First of all, that's a case for Shadow Dancer to respond to. Second of all, you said you suspected Shadow Dancer. Thirdly, you said you thought I was town. I'll respond to your post, but I don't understand the town motivation.

When we lynch townies, the scum kill one of their own. Meaning that if one of mole/Shadow Dancer is scum and the other is town and we hit the town one, then they'll just kill the scum one, and we have to do this all over again. So, if I see parts of your case that I don't agree with, I'm going to attack them, regardless of whether I agree with your target or not.

I'll explain the read thing tomorrow. Nothing I can do about gut or process of elimination, though. I'll take a crack at your destructor case. Mind linking me since I already haev a whole lot on my to-do list?

[Rena]

I'm still here, I swear!

Mole is still scum, though.

[Rena]

Thief, I AM voting mole. At least, I should be...

Why did you have to defend the case before Shadow Dancer?

Because I saw points in your case against him that I didn't like, and I didn't think to wait before responding to them.

Most of the case againts Rena is regarding destructor's behavior + gut + POE, however I'm also not liking how she didn't give any reads other than her read on Lowell day 2. She said this was because she didn't want to let scum know how well she was doing, but then gave us all her reads at the beginning of day 3.

I didn't want scum to know how well I was doing because I didn't want to be NK'ed. If the rest of my scumlist is as accurate as I think it is, then I guarantee scum would've NK'ed me. It also took way a bit of information from scum as to who they should form a bandwagon on early today; they don't know my scum reads and town reads, so they don't know whose I will happily vote, and they don't know whose lynch I will fight to the death to defend.

Post 43: Destructor had to know why Exilon was town in post 39, yet doesn't want to say why he thinks SD is town in this post. That seems kind of strange.

He stated in the post before that one that he was going to bed. I'm guessing he was tired, didn't feel like posting game-relevant information, but didn't want to ignore brian.

That is really weak reasoning.

Not a whole lot of town reads developed on Page 2 have strong reasoning.

It is mostly a gut read but I don't like Destructor's strong defense of SD regardless of SD's allignment.

This needs to be explained more before I can defend against it.

[Rena]

I'd like to hear other people's opinion on wicked, btw.

Wicked is town with a scumdar that's a bit off this game.

[Rena]

@Wicked: I don't plan on lynching either of them today.

Ani's earned a scum read from me, and if his next post doesn't resemble something slightly protown, I'm going to tunnel the hell out of him.

The analysis of mole is still coming, I promise. Sorry for the delay.

[Rena]

If you didn't want scum to know how well you were doing, then why did you give all your reads as soon as day 3 started?

I didn't want them to know how well I was doing because I didn't want to be NK'ed the first day I replaced in... I gave my reads as soon as day 3 started because you mentioned to me that you wanted them, and I didn't mind giving you my reads if they helped you...

Well, Destructor said the evidence made Shadow Dancer "likely town". And what is the point of giving weak town reads anyway?

People announce weak town reads early game all the time. It's like announcing weak scum reads in the beginning of the RVS to get the game going... it's not effective at all to say that "I have a slight scum read on X for so and so and a really small town read on Y..."; if you don't act if there's weight behind your words, there's no point at all in saying them.

[Rena]

His posts are terrible, and for the most part, completely contentless. He has provided no reason for his Lowell vote, and is just jumping on the bandwagon for the sake of it - he hasn't given decent reasons for any of his other votes either. Chances are he's just scum riding this one out.

Throughout this game, he has contributed basically NO scumhunting at all. Check his ISO, and read through it - it's not helpful to anyone and he just jumps on wagons and rides them out until a lynch.

These cases are eerily similar... Hell, I challenge the next person to guess which case is for which person without looking back at the game.

...you can't do it, can you? Thought so.

[Rena]

I suppose Lowell's my scumbuddy as well, right?

This post gave me a bad vibe, couldn't explain why. Now that Lowell's flipped scum, this post seems to be trying to discount the connection with sarcasm, as if it was ULTRA OBVIOUS that him and Lowell were not scum together.

Molestargazer, it looks like it is between you and SD for who get's lynched. If you are townie that doesn't want to get lynched, you should vote Shadow Dancer and help us lynch him.

What?
Trust me, I don't want to die as much as the next guy, but I'm nowhere near a lynch right now. I'll stick with my current target until something better presents itself, or it REALLY is between me and SD.

This also makes me uneasy. You're just sticking with a wagon that really isn't getting a whole lot of support. You aren't really trying to advance it in any way. Are you just waiting for SD to get to L-1 so you can quickhammer him?

[Rena]

So, who are my scumbuddies that got off the wagon as a result of my actions?

I'll get back to you on that, actually.

After rereading, I've discovered that that isn't the question we're looking for. We're looking for your scumbuddies that got ON the Quoi wagon. In that case, I'm guessing your buddies are Ani-Mafuyu, who might not've joined the wagon as a result of your actions, but your actions certainly gave them the opportunity to.

Mafuyu... how's that read going?

[Rena]

Don't call him that, he doesn't like it.

And he WILL make an angry post in this thread about it.

[Rena]

If I wanted SD dead, I'd vote for him.

Or you could stay off his counterwagon for a little bit of town cred, hammer him when he gets to L-1, and have your scumbuddies betray you during the night.

It doesn't make them any less valid. A person doesn't need to MEGA STAND OUT as being scum for them to be scum. They don't need to have one scummy action which everyone can remember and say "Oh yeah, that's X" for them to be scum. Sometimes it's the small things.

But you have to have something that makes a person stand out for being scum or you aren't going to convince anyone. The main reason why townies make cases is because you're trying to convince everyone else why to vote your suspect X over their suspect Y. If you're not accomplishing that point, then why would you post cases at all?

How CAN I advance the Thief wagon?

Show us why he's special. Show us why he's the BEST lynch we can make today, as opposed to a you lynch, an SD lynch, or a DP lynch.

[Rena]

Whom else do you think is scum/we could lynch?

Ani and Mafuyu are great lynches. Ani has been entirely useless, and Mafuyu still is tainted with Reck's scumminess.

[Rena]

Crap.

[Rena]

I didn't vote because I thought there was still the chance of Mafuyu voting for mole...

[Rena]

What doesn't make sense? Me not voting because I thought I could convince you to push my preferred lynch through, or you voting mole?

[Rena]

So, who are my scumbuddies that got off the wagon as a result of my actions?

I'll get back to you on that, actually.

After rereading, I've discovered that that isn't the question we're looking for. We're looking for your scumbuddies that got ON the Quoi wagon. In that case, I'm guessing your buddies are Ani-Mafuyu, who might not've joined the wagon as a result of your actions, but your actions certainly gave them the opportunity to.

Mafuyu... how's that read going?

Not bad. A molestar vote's becoming enticing.

Well, there's this.

[Rena]

^Love the heart, kid. Your mind's in the wrong place, though.

Come out, mole... Face the music you KNEW was coming...

Vote: molestargazer

[Rena]

Oh, and Mafuyu? I expect you to be caught up by now. The days of your scum coasting have ended.

[Rena]

Hmph. How am I not surprised at all...? You wagon someone who you've never even mentioned AT ALL, and you only decide to defend yourself with your weak ass WIFOM. Why would scum kill you, mole? You avoided the lynch even after hardcore defending your scumbuddy D2, and you managed to swindle a couple people into having a town read on you. Ani was lurkish, scummy, and once SD flipped town, obvscum.

[Rena]

I wonder whether you're really town or not. But I'm not going to be able to convince anyone.

I'd love to see you try, though.

[Rena]

SD and Thief to goooooooo

It worries me that DP is targeting Thief as well. Maybe my read (if you can call it that) is off.
Prod received!

Wicked is probably town. Although my position on this probably doesn't count for much considering I'm regarded as scum by a lot of players.

What happened to this?

Nah, sarcasm doesn't antagonize the person it's being used against by ridiculing someone for missing the obvious, and that's certainly not one of the only ways to employ extreme aggression over the internet without being modkilled.

I still don't class sarcasm as "extreme". Just my opinion.

As much as I hate to (seeing as its the main alternative to

me

) I find myself disagreeing with the SD wagon, despite his aggression and his attacks on me.

I wonder if we could all agree to lynch Thief and all be happy. This is a good post apart from naming me as having interactions between DP & Thief, then not mentioning me at all in the rest of the post.

He has a history of jumping onto wagons with little to no explanation.
1. Quoi - OMGUSsy.
2. Lowell - "I prefer DP"
3. Me - No explanation at all.

My thoughts on SD are as follows:
-He's posted a lot.
-He makes big walls of text that I don't have the energy to read
-He was wagonned real early real fast and is probably town

Essentially useless.

Throughout this game, he has contributed basically NO scumhunting at all. Check his ISO, and read through it - it's not helpful to anyone and he just jumps on wagons and rides them out until a lynch.

Vote: Thief

Or this...?

[Rena]

Oh, and Mafuyu? I expect you to be caught up by now. The days of your scum coasting have ended.

Mafuyu, did you miss this? If not, then why are you intentionally ignoring it?

[Rena]

What I was expecting:
"I'm working on it, I'm on page x."
"I decided not to read the game."
"I'm done, my thoughts are coming soon."

Was that completely unreasonable?

[Rena]

Unvote, Vote: Wicked

[Rena]

This setup is difficult for town to play because it punishes mindless bandwagoning, which is why I think I like it so much

One thing I would change is the deadline lengths, though. I think it would balance things out a lot if town had more time to argue things.