1025 Tarot Mafia (Over!)

[StrangerCoug]

I hereby understand and confirm my role.

[StrangerCoug]

Vote: Capn

for voting when only a third of the game has confirmed.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: Five-twelfths. Skipped myself, apparently.

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote
Vote: animorpherv1

I don't like how your discussion went from rolefishing to mod WIFOM. I don't think the correct way to describe my playstyle is gut, but as town it is spontaneous, so the playstyle discussion is a null tell.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm going to drop the rolefish claim since I just remembered that dramonic outed this being a no-vanilla game saying everybody has two cards of which you can only use one power on them apiece.

How about "likely town" "likely scum" and "likley netiher"?

Mod-WIFOM for reasons that UncertainKitten stated.

[StrangerCoug]

Sorry, missed this.

I think that selective flavor claiming could be useful. We should at least announce our genders. I am feminine.

Everyone please answer the follwing question. How much do you know about tarot, divination, and western hermetic traditions in general? (I've been reading tarot for twenty-seven years, including a brief stint as a "psychic friend," public busking, working the occasional event booth, and tutoring a small number of students. I spent more than a decade of that time studying related arts.)

Masculine. I have an understanding of the deck itself, but as far as divination goes, I'm completely ignorant, and I have no clue what you're talking about by "western hermetic traditions".

Also, did you know that there are tarot decks that are not meant for divination at all, but game play? I have such a deck.

[StrangerCoug]

a no-vanilla game saying everybody has two cards of which you can only use one power on them apiece

Interesting anomoly. Twelve players with two cards each = 24 cards, and yet there are only 22 in the major arcana. One of the following must be true: some people have minor arcana cards, some people have less than two cards, or there are duplicates.

Heh. Apparently, dramonic didn't explicitly say two cards—I thought he did. That by itself points to some people having less than two cards.

Well, I've just outed that I have two cards. If none of the Mafiates have more than one card, I'm a viable NK target now, but I'll just have to live with that. I may not be the best player out there, but that doesn't mean I don't try

[StrangerCoug]

Also, did you know that there are tarot decks that are not meant for divination at all, but game play?

Missed this earlier. You mean tarrochini? I've played a few times, I think the deck is exactly the same.

That's one such game. There's also French tarot, Koenigsrufen...

[StrangerCoug]

But then StrangerCoug is jumping on and off your bandwagon in the span of two posts and trying to push a "town by ignorance" defense, so I'm thinking that's a better place for my vote.

Vote: StrangerCoug

The hell? I can't have unvoted animorpherv1 if I didn't unvote him; in fact, I'm still on him for bringing mod-WIFOM into this.

This is also a mild case of damning me if I do and damning me if I don't, seeing as I cannot reasonably continue the rolefish attack and you're accusing me of dropping it.

[StrangerCoug]

I hope what xRECKONERx is saying isn't true. At this point, though, I think it's xRECKONERx being xRECKONERx, and I don't have a good reason to suspect he's scum.

Preview Edit: SC, what I'm saying is that you're weakening your own argument against Ani right after making it. I don't see how his posts don't involve rolefishing, and you apparently didn't either, but now you're willing to drop that argument and just say his posts are WIFOMing the mod, which isn't nearly as strong a point.

I think this line of reasoning comes from the fact that animorpherv1 reduced himself for asking if we think each card is likely scum, a power role, or vanilla townie to townie, scummy, or neither. I accused animorpherv1 of doing those separately.

[StrangerCoug]

Interesting call by Ythill on the number of Major Arcana =/= 24. Not really sure why he mentioned it though, because it would have been a wonderful thing to keep under wraps if scum do only have 1 card apiece--although that's obviously not confirmed by any stretch of the imagination.

Scum having only 1 card apiece is almost certainly wrong, and it only takes a single quick thought (trust in the mod to not create a broken setup) to realize that. Feels like he's trying to lay the groundwork for messing with legitimate claims later.

Why does Ythill get suspicion for suggesting the one-card-per-scum theory when I'm the first person to mention the possibility?

[StrangerCoug]

Late-ish to the party, I'm masculine and have some basic Tarot knowledge gleaned from the Internet. Nothing more than some basic meanings and suchlike though.

Interesting call by Ythill on the number of Major Arcana =/= 24. Not really sure why he mentioned it though, because it would have been a wonderful thing to keep under wraps if scum do only have 1 card apiece--although that's obviously not confirmed by any stretch of the imagination.

As for the rest of the game, Ani's plan is dumb at best and scummy at worst, because if everyone's cards are like mine, their abilities are ambiguously-aligned and not specifically mafia- or town-aligned. They could swing either way, depending on the alignment of the user.

But then StrangerCoug is jumping on and off your bandwagon in the span of two posts and trying to push a "town by ignorance" defense, so I'm thinking that's a better place for my vote.

Vote: StrangerCoug

Vote: Switz

I see some rolefishing in this post. It's not blatantly obvious, but it's there. It's the scummiest thing I've seen so far.

Unvote: animorpherv1
Vote: Mitsuru Kirijo

for falsely accusing Switz of rolefishing. The worst he's done is out that his cards could easily be given to town or to scum. Everything else role-related is a gender claim and speculation.

Macavity vs. Ythill needs to play out some more for me to get a good read on them, but I think Ythill is winning the argument.

[StrangerCoug]

I don't see a problem with xRECKONERx right now. I still like my Mitsuru vote, and Macavity's in the lower half of my reads too.

[StrangerCoug]

vote: strangercoug

Kise shoot him; thanks.

Why do you want me shot?

[StrangerCoug]

Well, I see slight rolefishing. Maybe just me but that's my thoughts.

Elaborate on these "thoughts".

[StrangerCoug]

it would have been a wonderful thing to keep under wraps if scum do only have 1 card apiece--although that's obviously not confirmed by any stretch of the imagination.

I see some rolefishing here. Saying that this is not confirmed. It's almost as though he's waiting for confirmation from other players.

If every town-aligned player has two cards apiece and the scum thinks having only one card will be a tell, they will all claim to have two cards also. Scumhunting ≠ rolefishing.

i's plan is dumb at best and scummy at worst, because if everyone's cards are like mine, their abilities are ambiguously-aligned and not specifically mafia- or town-aligned.

He's saying id everyone's cards are like mine. Again, it seems to me like he's awaiting confirmation from other players. I understand why others wouldn't share my opinion, fair enough. But that's what I see.

Nobody is going to claim what their cards do right now, so rolefishing by speculating like Switz have is ineffective.

[StrangerCoug]

Vote: Jarti

Answer me.

vote: strangercoug

Kise shoot him; thanks.

Why do you want me shot?

[StrangerCoug]

7. Wait, did SC just jump on the Ani vote wagon right after reading "finding intent within in posts" banter with UK/Ani. I assume you can address why this doesn't answer the reasoning for your Mod-WIFOM argument. I see that you dropped the role fishing argument later on when Ani repeats that he's trying to stop fake claims within cards.

I did not consider intent the main issue here. I had caught the discussion of it, but animorpherv1 appeared to be relying more on claimed cards than intent.

9. SC I really find this terrible. I thought we addressed these issues when UK brought them up the first time. Answer the above question in 7. Why was the intent banter null against your Mod-Wifom argument. I thought you dropped the role fishing argument after the second time Ani was fishing out potential ways to stop fake claims. I was wrong apparently. I'd consider lynching you.

No, you were right. I did not revive the rolefishing case; I was explaining that I did not progress from accusing him of rolefishing to accusing him of mod-WIFOM.

[StrangerCoug]

@sc: umad? or uscum?

also everyone else has 2 cards because I have 0 and am a non-vanilla town [sc pushing "omg maybe scum have 1 card each and I'll be NK'd ISO 6" bugged me because I knew I had 0 and thus everyone else should have 2, and if he was scum setting up a "scum have 1 card each" scenario would work against the possible two townies with 1 card from his scum-POV {others continued on with it, but he brought it up I believe}, but I like killing UK now too]

^-^ jingle jangle jingle jangle ^-^ burn the witch ^-^ jingle jangle jingle jangle ^-^

Your claiming that complaining about the possibility of being nightkilled is a scumtell makes very little sense. I know what I am, but right now, I can only make heads and tails out of your case if you think one of my cards gives me a bulletproof vest or I don't plan on killing tonight so I can set up a fake doc protect.

Also, zero cards and non-vanilla? I don't think that immediately clears you, but it is something to think about later down the road.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm not willing to entertain the possibility that Jarti and UncertainKitten are scumbuddies. It just seems too strong of a crossbus to me.

[StrangerCoug]

One of the cards I have can do something that you find very important given discussion, but something may happen that'll make it more useful later. I'll let you discuss this (think about what I'm hinting at), then you guys tell me whether I should do it.

[StrangerCoug]

I'll hang on to the card until instructed to play it.

[StrangerCoug]

Instructed by who?

Somebody in-game that gives me a pro-town reason to do so. I can play it at any time (while alive, obviously), but I want to make the most of it.

[StrangerCoug]

I don't think the Switz wagon is bad, but I still like my other vote better. It took me my vote to get him to even respond to why he wanted Kise to vig me, and when he did, he had this holier-than-thou attitude. He also has a crap case on UncertainKitten and appears to be damning her if she does and damning her if she doesn't at #240.

[StrangerCoug]

Also,

Major HoS: Anybody thinking about hammering before we learn who has/had Death.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: "Now" means "at this moment", you mean "no" in the edit to Capn's post.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm pretty much siding with DTMaster here. I see where the Ythill hate is coming from, but I don't think scum is going to withhold if they played Death if Ythill is bribing them with a clear. Ythill and whoever played Death are not likely scumbuddies.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm still game for determining who played Death myself, if that's OK with you guys.

[StrangerCoug]

I am not DGB. I play the game at face value. It is rare, indeed, for me to engage in a gambit or trap. For some reason, everyone thinks I do it all the time these days. I claimed PGO as JK in one goddamn game and now I'm Mr. Gambit. So... this is not a gambit or a trap. If it was (it's not) I wouldn't admit that it was anyway (it's really not) so you should stop arguing about the chance that it's a trap (because, you know, it's not).

The person who played the Death card is town

so long as I am town (and I am), so just remember that after I get NKed.

You, Mr. Gambit? Since when?

The dark red text is noteworthy as a likely mod edit; specifically, I can clear who played it too. I'd like Ythill to keep going, though, and if he fails, I'll play the card I've been talking about.

[StrangerCoug]

You're a confident player, Ythill.

[StrangerCoug]

I'd try to hit scum with those, Switz. Jarti's good, as could be MacavityLock.

[StrangerCoug]

Really, ML? You're going to suggest that it is in my best interests to help scum?

[StrangerCoug]

Who knows? Maybe you lied and

DO

have a card.

[StrangerCoug]

I bet you're all wondering what my role is, huh?

I must admit that you make me curious about it, but I'm going to shut up about it. You're not at the top of my town list, but you're not at the top of my scum list either.

[StrangerCoug]

Really, ML? You're going to suggest that it is in my best interests to help scum?

When did I suggest that? Immediately after his claim, you don't question him at all, just talk to him as if he is town.

You accused me of not taking the possibility that Switz is a Mafia roleblocker into account. I answered his question assuming he is town for a very good reason: if he's scum, my opinion only matters to him if I am his buddy.

[StrangerCoug]

Really, ML? You're going to suggest that it is in my best interests to help scum?

When did I suggest that? Immediately after his claim, you don't question him at all, just talk to him as if he is town.

You accused me of not taking the possibility that Switz is a Mafia roleblocker into account. I answered his question assuming he is town for a very good reason:

if he's scum, my opinion only matters to him if I am his buddy.

That's not true at all. If he's scum, he could use it for buddying, or could use it to set you up. Not considering that is either scummy or very short-sighted.

I'm still pro-Switz getting lynched.

I was speaking only in terms of the actual roleblocking, so the latter makes a better accusation of me here.

Still want Jarti gone, though I'm not above voting Switz. Seriously, UncertainKitten is not a viable lynch right now. Why stall?

[StrangerCoug]

Who? Strangercoug. Coug is scummy scum scum. Town coug doesn't play scummy like this in my experience. Town coug plays scummy in an entirely different matter.

You've forgotten me claiming in dribs and drabs in Insane Asylum 2, haven't you?

Whether that game is relevant/helps anybody/whatever or not, I'd still like an actual case on me rather than just "you're scummy." That's implied by your voting me post-RVS.

@Coug-scum: Opinion on kise, plz and thank you.

Right now I believe the dayvig claim is genuine.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: That was posted without reading this page; let me read it and re-respond.

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote
Vote: animorpherv1

I don't like how your discussion went from rolefishing to mod WIFOM. I don't think the correct way to describe my playstyle is gut, but as town it is spontaneous, so the playstyle discussion is a null tell.

NO. Animorpherv suggested something that has very little value to scum in a net perspective.
ie. Animorpherv suggested something that would potentially benefit both (or either) scum and/or town.
Oh, Ani is townish too, I didn't mention that. I probably should have.
He's townish because of his stupid suggestion.
His suggestion is a courageous one. Because it can benefit both/either scum and/or town, it probably is beneficial to scum. Which makes it really ill-advised. I don't know about you, but scum usually hate such blunt, brute force tactics. Such pro-scum plans usually come from confused townies.
But no, here comes strangercoug, gunning for the easy target.
BAM!! Scummy strangercoug is acting scummy.

I play hardball. Where I come from, you say anything that favors scum, you're scummy. Not much leniency given there.

But then StrangerCoug is jumping on and off your bandwagon in the span of two posts and trying to push a "town by ignorance" defense, so I'm thinking that's a better place for my vote.

Vote: StrangerCoug

The hell? I can't have unvoted animorpherv1 if I didn't unvote him; in fact, I'm still on him for bringing mod-WIFOM into this.

This is also a mild case of damning me if I do and damning me if I don't, seeing as I cannot reasonably continue the rolefish attack and you're accusing me of dropping it.

"I'm not going to defend myself cause I can't"

Best. Defense. Ever.
NOT

I'm counterattacking, not refusing to defend. Switz accused me of dropping the bad idea of accusing animorpherv1 of rolefishing.

Vote: Jarti

Answer me.

vote: strangercoug

Kise shoot him; thanks.

Why do you want me shot?

Jarti is town. And this is effectively OMGUS.
But more importantly, JARTI IS OBV-TOWN.

Sorry; having a differing opinion on someone's alignment is not scummy. Try again.

@sc: umad? or uscum?

also everyone else has 2 cards because I have 0 and am a non-vanilla town [sc pushing "omg maybe scum have 1 card each and I'll be NK'd ISO 6" bugged me because I knew I had 0 and thus everyone else should have 2, and if he was scum setting up a "scum have 1 card each" scenario would work against the possible two townies with 1 card from his scum-POV {others continued on with it, but he brought it up I believe}, but I like killing UK now too]

^-^ jingle jangle jingle jangle ^-^ burn the witch ^-^ jingle jangle jingle jangle ^-^

Your claiming that complaining about the possibility of being nightkilled is a scumtell makes very little sense. I know what I am, but right now, I can only make heads and tails out of your case if you think one of my cards gives me a bulletproof vest or I don't plan on killing tonight so I can set up a fake doc protect.

Also, zero cards and non-vanilla? I don't think that immediately clears you, but it is something to think about later down the road.

Um... Jarti did not claim you were making some type of elaborate strategy. Keep hitting Mr. Strawman, K? Basically, coug's defense here is:
"YOU FORGET THAT BECAUSE I CLAIMED I MIGHT BE NIGHTKILLED I CANNOT POSSIBLY BE SCUM TRYING TO THROW SUSPICION ON TOWNIES WITH 1 CARD OR SOMETHING OF THAT NATURE"
Frankly, with it COMMON KNOWLEDGE that most players have 2 cards, I don't see any reason at all for scum to target coug, or what makes coug stand out against other players.
I mean SERIOUSLY. Coug even suggesting he was a NK target at that point is already ludicrous.
But here he even uses it as a DEFENSE!!!
The very idea is inconceivable to me.

I never seriously entertained the possibility of scum have one card apiece other than wishing otherwise. Pay closer attention to my posts.

More jarti hate.
What's the case on jarti?
Oh yeah, Jarti wanted coug shot, and coug strawmanned against the reasons why.

I'm sorry, but I still don't consider Jarti to have given a legitimate case on me.

That being said... the original backoff attack I think was a valid one, even if the reasons behind it were misguided, because I'm not sure what the attack that made sense in SC's mind was originally. Backing off because of new information or a realization doesn't help me piece together how the attack worked originally. I didn't like SC's response to it 'cause he should've explained why the new information caused him to back off, what thing had changed now that this new information was present to him, rather than just say something along the lines of "WHELP I CAN'T KEEP PUSHING AND SO I GOTTA STOP SO YOU CAN'T ACCUSE ME CAUSE I STOPPED BECAUSE I HAD TO!"
A better defense would've been:
"THIS IS WHY I HAD TO BACK OFF FROM MY ATTACK: BEFORE I THOUGHT X WAS THE CASE, SO I THOUGHT ANI WAS ROLEFISHING, BUT CAUSE I REALIZED THAT EVERYONE HAS 2 CARDS, X IS NOT THE CASE"

HEY SC!
WHAT IS "X" ANYWAY!?

X = realizing that nobody is a vanilla townie.

[StrangerCoug]

Sorry; having a differing opinion on someone's alignment is not scummy. Try again.

OK, why is Jarti scum.
Convince me.

I asked him why he wanted Kise to kill me; his next post ignores me in favor of a shift on UncertainKitten. When I voted him to get him to respond, he said that I was using the "scum have only one card" theory as a setup, something you've also accused me of.

Not true.

The mod never said how many cards everybody has; I was the first person to say anything about people having two cards. When Ythill pointed this out,

THEN

I talked about scum having only one card, and then only as something that I hoped wasn't true. "I hope that scum does not have only one card" =/= "scum has only one card", and anybody believing otherwise is guilty of reverse wishful thinking.

I'm sorry, but I still don't consider Jarti to have given a legitimate case on me.

I hope this isn't the case for Jarti being scum.

Your hopes are dashed, then.

I never seriously entertained the possibility of scum have one card apiece other than wishing otherwise. Pay closer attention to my posts.

Did you seriously believe you were a potential nightkill target?
Because you basically said that if scum aren't the people with one card, they were liable to shoot you cause they knew you had two.[/quote]
No, I said the opposite. In the specific scenario of one card per scum, then I felt that my chances of dying were upped somewhat. Forced to assume two or more cards per scum, it's a pretty solid no, though.

X = realizing that nobody is a vanilla townie.

So
"Before i thought there were vanilla townies, so Ani was rolefishing. Then I realized there weren't vanilla townies, so Ani wasn't rolefishing"
Explain how ani was rolefishing, please, I still don't understand.

Let's look at the post:

The first thing we should do, for anyone who actually knows anything about Tarot Cards, is to compile a list of "liklely a Power Role" "likley scum" and "likley VT".

He asked us for what cards are potentially power roles. In a game with vanilla townies, that'd be asking the town to give scum information they wouldn't need, something against my "don't help scum" philosophy. I don't recall

EVER

seeing town rolefish that early in Day 1.

[StrangerCoug]

In the specific scenario of one card per scum, then I felt that my chances of dying were upped somewhat. Forced to assume two or more cards per scum, it's a pretty solid no, though.

If that's the case... could you elaborate on the reasoning behind this for me... I don't quite follow.

Ultimately, paranoia. Assuming the cards are about equal in power, I would be more powerful than the Mafia in the former event and thus a plausible danger.

He asked us for what cards are potentially power roles. In a game with vanilla townies, that'd be asking the town to give scum information they wouldn't need, something against my "don't help scum" philosophy. I don't recall EVER seeing town rolefish that early in Day 1.

Could you define your use of the term "rolefishing" for me?

I thought I used the term according to the standard definition. Unnecessarily trying to determine what power role someone has.

[StrangerCoug]

I thought I used the term according to the standard definition. Unnecessarily trying to determine what power role someone has.

unless people claim their cards... I don't see how this fits the definition of role fishing.

That by itself doesn't; however, animorpherv1 asked us our theories of which cards

ARE

powers.

[StrangerCoug]

Tipsy, Prox?

[StrangerCoug]

I thought I used the term according to the standard definition. Unnecessarily trying to determine what power role someone has.

unless people claim their cards... I don't see how this fits the definition of role fishing.

That by itself doesn't; however, animorpherv1 asked us our theories of which cards

ARE

powers.

right. And?
I still don't see where it connects those cards with the individuals.
For example: I think XXXXX card is a power role doesn't tell me who has XXXXX card.

OK, you win. I think you've given a thorough explanation of why attacking animorpherv1 for rolefishing was a bad idea.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm going to throw my reads out:

• Jarti is scum.
  
• When magnus_orion was going after me, his staunch defense of Jarti and both of them misstating my thoughts on one card per scum read to me as them being scum; I now think m_o can very easily go either way. He's Jarti's most likely buddy in my opinion, but he did a very pro-town demonstration of why accusing animopherv1 of rolefishing wouldn't have worked anyway.
  
• Speaking of animorpherv1, where is he?
  
• I'm not solid town on Kise anymore and he needs to get in here too.
  
• As for MacavityLock vs. Ythill, I now think MacavityLock is on the winning end of the argument; strangely, I don't have strong reads on either of them.

[StrangerCoug]

You sure have a hatred of me, Jarti, but your case on me still stinks. I could tell the power roles to do the exact opposite of what you're suggesting, but I'm going to let them think for themselves. They're smart.

[StrangerCoug]

I already said I think you're really dumb instead of really scum. You're just awful and need to be gone.

Ad hominem

and advocating my policy lynch.

You already said you think m_o could 'very easily go either way', and yet you have no desire to jump on the m_o wagon and seem to be content allowing this day to go into a no lynch.

Not completely true. I've called magnus_orion your most likely scumbuddy, which should tell you I'm willing to switch off if I have to. I don't want the day to end in a no lynch; I want you dead.

It's a weekend, when activity levels are normally low anyway and yet your content stalling things out when the deadline is like tomorrow morning. It's just flat out bad play and it's not even like you're all like 'omg m_o is so town I refuse to vote him'. You more of just do nothing and are content wasting a game day.

You've posted even less in this game than I have, so watch it.

Your post where you 'throw your reads out' is NOTHING. It's like 'lol I think Jarti is scum'

Which is common knowledge by now.

'lol I guess m_o could be either way!'

I'll save the best for last.

'lol I guess I'm wishy washy on Kise now too'

Not true. I just said I no longer feel as strongly that he's town. "He's not as townie as he used to be" ≠ "I am undecided on him."

'oh look ani is inactive'

Lurking is anti-information, thus scummy.

'I see Mac & Ythill have argued. I have no reads on them.'

Strawmanning. I said I don't have

STRONG

reads on them. A weak read is still a read. (Both are weak town reads, if you're wondering.)

So really you haven't take a stance on anyone except going the easy route of 'oh Jarti didn't explain why he wanted me shot i'm mad and just going to park my vote on him for the rest of the day while I just fencesit everywhere else' You said you thought Kise's dayvig claim was legit after he said he was just gambiting. You obviously aren't paying attention.

My reads are not set in stone. If anybody short of confirmed town does something scummy, people are going to notice.

you're worthless for town in every way regardless of your alignment and any role you possibly have

Can we kill you now? You've already established you don't care about my alignment, which is a

VERY

strong tell. You're telling us that it does not matter whether I am town, SK, opposing Mafia, or what the hell ever. Me dead = you closer to winning, and we will not let that happen.

The rest of this town sucks too.

Then do something about it.

'lol I guess m_o could be either way!'

It never meant I was unwilling to commit. In fact, guess what? Your scumbuddy is dead.
UNVOTE: Jarti
VOTE: magnus_orion
Now what are you going to do?

[StrangerCoug]

I've wanted to use both of mine at some point or another, but am still holding on to them both.

[StrangerCoug]

BAH!

[StrangerCoug]

Well, scum did a good job.