ATHF Mafia OVER(roles and whatnot revealed)

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hello to those of you I know

– Fate, VV, Ghostwriter, Nacho, Seacore and podium. Glad to see those I’m not familiar with are in the minority.

Let me also say that I’m somewhat disheartened not to be a Mooninite. I had the great speech about how having a cool guitar with all the powers of Foreigner and how Loverboy sucks.

You could still do it. *I* would like that.

@Ghostwriter

– Are you planning on flaking or lurking in this game like you did in [REDACTED] or [REDACTED]? I’d like to know up front if I should expect your replacement.

Also no role claiming, name claiming or claiming of any kind. There are more than enough characters in ATHF for fake claims to not stand out. [/claimdiscussion]

While I agree that name-claiming isn’t going to be helpful putting a ban on role-claiming of any kind is kinda anti-town. I’d rather not lynch something useful like a Cop or Nightkill Immune Miller Vig just because you don’t want to ever see role claims.

This is around my 9th game and I would like to know from everyone how many games he/she has already played already.

Not including on-going games here at MS I have somewhere around 25 to 30 games completed. At the old site I used to play I had around 50 to 60 under my belt.

As somebody who read Nacho's and Fate's comments as serious, I don't really see podium as scum for reacting how he did. Then again, I'm used to always being accused of scum early in Day 1, as some of you can attest to, so maybe I was just paranoid.

This reaction surprises me. I read Nacho’s post as clearly comedy oriented (he went out of his way to vote you for the exact reason that you sought to prevent and I’m sure he knows you didn’t chance your avatar) and Fate has pretty clearly been doing his early game schenanigans.

@implosion: If I just told you, what would your job be in all this?

Hey look, either a veiled attempt at in-thread communication to a partner of some sort or a reaction test. Either way it’s worth further investigation.

VOTE: Vibebox

[MagnaofIllusion]

As for my 'surprising' reaction, chalk it up to being sick of being a day 1 wagonee, clearly now I see it was my paranoia.

The game we have in common is rather dated (AGM’s Classic Mafia) but I don’t recall you being so passive in that game. I’ll have to re-read but IIRC you spent a good deal of Day 1 going after Deer and Wickedestjr for language choices. Far from passive play, which I’m seeing from you here.

Wait did you just ask him to scumhunt?

Why would you need to ASK him to scumhunt?

TOWN already know what they are supposed to do.

You do know that scum also know that they have to pretend to scum-hunt also right? Asking Podium to scum-hunt in this circumstance means not getting into a pointless pissing contest with you that has little do with whether either of you are scum.

Ghostwriter you are officially recruited as my henchmen, I'll be the mastermind.

Now let's take over this town.

Yeah, that so often turns out well regardless of your alignment [/offsarcasm]

Please don’t make me spend most of my time trying to reign your wild accusation swings in Fate. I don’t think I have the energy for that currently.

The concern for Seacore is the fact that you came in when the wagon was on Sea, despite it clearly being an RVS wagon that wasn't going to go anywhere and was never intended to. RVS wagons are common tactic for getting out of RVS.

What sort of tell is this again? Because I don’t see what you are trying to assert here. Is Podium scummy for posting at a certain point in the game?

Hey MoI. It seems you are familiar with Podium. What's your read on him?

I played 1 Day of a game with Podium months ago (Seacore was in the same game with us) so I’m not intimately familiar with him. Add in that I had a Town read on Podium for the Day I was alive and that he was indeed scum to the mix. Personally I’m going to be assessing his play much more critically based on my experience.

That said I’d chalk him up as a Null read so far. Reacting to Fate as he has isn’t a scum-tell as much as a conflicting personality tell IMO.

Uhm, can anyone confirm "Basically already lynched" as the "standard" time for claim here on MS? I mostly play on MTGS, where the standard is L-2 so scum can't just self hammer to end the Day.

Claiming as Seacore indicated is the standard here at MS. Really the only purpose of the claim is a last ditch effort to not lynch an important Town PR and nothing else.

u r a fail.

Ghost is AOKAIE by my.
Vas and Zinive are not.

Didn’t you just chastise Podium for shit-posting? Because my 6 year old daughter can build a post more clear and understandable than this.

Does being ‘a fail’ actually equate to being scum or is it just for rhetoric?

This is my only game right now. POST MOAR PEOPLE!

Spamming the thread just to post hardly qualifies as either scum-hunting or being useful.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Allowing an unclaimed player to reach L-1 seems awful. It allows for quicklynching and self-hammering.

And both the options you mention here have consequences. If you don’t like the site meta calling it awful isn’t going to do much good.

I'm sorry that a little intrawebs lingo is enough to confuse you.

It has nothing to do with confusing me. Nice try Tex. It has everything to do with consistency in your opinion and posting. You call someone out for crap posting and then post what is basically crap yourself. That borders on Cognitive Dissonance.

He completely failed to understand Fate's point. Are you really saying you couldn't tell that's what I was referencing?

It’s clear he failed to get the reference. If your statement doesn’t indicate he is scum for doing so why did you post it? If it does indicate he is scum why didn't you just call him scummy as opposed to being cute?

Vas & Zinive = not

I looked at your ISO. Your only mention of Zini is to call him one of the ‘funny’ guys and you only interacted with VV at ISO 4. So unless you are going purely on ‘gut’ here some support would be great.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOD - Can we get something in the way of prods on The Butterfly and Xenophon?

Like with pointy, sharp, burning sticks?

I've been searching for a replacement for xenophon since the beginning of the game (since I'm pretty sure he disappeared from the site). Also I've prodded The Butterfly. Let's hope he doesn't bail too

Thanks!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey everyone not named Fate, Nacho, VV, Vibebox, Podium and Seacore - There's lots to actually, you know, comment on here.

No, I don't want you to claim. Hell, I don't want you to even defend yourself, really. I just want you to believe that you won't get lynched. And so don't get lynched. Although, I don't know whether this is L-2 or L-1 because the votecount confused my feeble heart. But that's okay.

Thanks for confirming my early suspicion that you were Town with this post. Because we both know the Vote Count was hardly anything confusing and Scum-Nacho doesn’t play stupid.

Given that I'm not happy any more with my vote on Vibe, I'm going to shift my vote

Unvote. Vote Podium

Note, this doesn't mean I'm happy with Vibe's play and style, I just view it as anti-town rather than scum.

So you thought Vibe was scum earlier, didn’t address him in any significant way, and now are changing to he is Anti-Town? Just want to be clear.

DODGE FLUFFPOST

But of course we can't get MoI lynched D1, so I digress.

Ah, Fate I know you know the difference between dodging legitimate questions and just ignoring your reaction-fishing. That’s OK. You do know very well I’m not ever going to just sheep you. Someone around here needs to not be a ‘Yes Man’. Think of me as your personal Katy from LOTR Mafia for this game.

On to review the Case on Podium

–

The whole ‘That’s pure scum-reaction’ on regarding the non-existant breadcrumb is junk. Sorry, not convincing in the least. And I can’t say that his defensive posture and escalation into name-calling really sells me either. It’s clear frustration, but that can be any alignment.

Now the lack of scum-hunting – that speaks to me.

Because the attack on Implosion was bad. It’s already been laid out but Seacore’s ‘I’m used to being wagonned so I am paranoid’ statement is soft self-meta and pointless. So Implosion was right to question it. I also note this is the second occasion where Seacore and Podium back-up each other by defending interpretation of statements. Seacore defended Podium’s reaction to the breadcrumbs and Podium here is explaining for Seacore what Seacore’s thoughts are.

Post 90 reinforces the lack of scum-hunting. Here he characterizes a post by VV as scummy. VV earns +scumpoints. Is that suspicion followed up on? Not at all. It’s just a pot-shot floating out into the ether that didn’t gain traction and thus is forgotten. The vote hangs with Implosion.

160 where suddenly Seacore is obv-scum (what happened to VV?) after Fate laid the groundwork as to why Seacore might be worth suspicion is just moving a vote to move it.

Anyone take notice that neither Podium or Vibebox are doing anything of significance in the way of commenting on the other? Given they are the two biggest wagons you might think as Town they’d be looking at the other as potential scum. Yet all we get is Vibe telling podium to post better.

Now onto Vibe –

Here I dismiss the wagon on me as lazy and contentless, and outright refuse to answer a question. And yet I haven't been piled on for it!

You do understand that this is agreeing with the assertion that you were shitposting, right?

This is me providing my current reads, including two players as yet unmentioned (one of them being you, and you admit that I was right to say so because of your contentless post)

So you provide a Town read on a player that Fate already christened Town and then vague suspicion that looks like you just threw darts at the Wall to find your targets. There’s a song about that …

You say ‘Useful to the game’, I say “more shitposting’.

It was actually "Null-Fail" before, but I wanted to push a wagon to keep us from relapsing into RVSishness. Now, idk, but he is definitely still some kind of fail.

So once again you were just pointing out something that wasn’t a scum or Town tell just because you thought we’d ‘relapse’ into RVS? Not buying that at all. RVS was dead and gone.

Yes it does.
Also, Smear.

Lulz. You are accusing me of the dreaded Smear when your original statement amounted to ‘DERP YOU IZ A MORON WHO CAN’T THINKZ’.

Please point out a specific inconsistency in my opinion.

You know, the whole ‘Don’t shitpost’ while doing it yourself. As already addressed above and when I first called you on it. Need it repeated a third time?

You say "cute" (to make me look bad), I say "acting with some degree of subtlety".
I was going somewhere with that line of questioning, but your chainsawing has spoiled it.

Actually I specifically used cute because you yourself used it in your opening shitpost dismissal of accusations against you. Were you 'trying to make others look bad' yourself? For someone so steeped in the art of subtlety you sure missed that.

Ah, the Chainsaw accusation. Nice.

It is quite early in the game, and at this point "gut" is half of it. Given the low number of posts by each of them at that point, you really couldn't deduce the reasons I didn't like either of them? (oh gee, I didn't directly call you scummy, oh noooo000! Now answer.)

Here’s a hint – Mafia is a game of information exchange. Town getting their opinions and suspicions out in the open helps solidfy Town reads and nail scum. Your insistence that others guess your reasoning sucks.

I think my vote can stay right here for the moment. Because like Podium you’ve spent your time basically explaining away suspicion as opposed to looking for scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna! While you are here, please comment on my #176 of AWESOMENESS.

BRB, watching my recently finished illegal download of AHTF: Complete series + extras. While high. Oh yeah.

I read it while we cross-posted. I'm too tired to get deep into it other than to say I disagree with your Nacho read. I'm not sold on Podium as pure Town based on my 'scum-hunting' portion of my text. Mull it over and get back to me with your thoughts. I'll be posting tomorrow when I'm not dead tired in more depth on 176.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Nacho and GW

– I’d like some elucidation on your read on Vibebox.

@VV regarding 176

– I understand your thought process in labelling Podium’s reaction to the way Fate plays. That said the point I find strongest against him is his ‘scum-hunting’.

I disagree with your assessment of Nacho based solely on personal direct experience with Nacho. He’s not the greatest scum-hunter in my opinion but his scum play was easily recognizable to me the last game we played together. And his play here is not scum-play.

I’ll have to review GhostWriter.

MoI is town, so at least I won't die N1. MoI I'm under the impression that if you are a vanilla you should just claim D1 to make the scum weigh whether they should kill you or not.

Trust me on this one, I'll back you up if the VIs start hounding you for "anti-town" play, and point out that if you're alive longer THAT in and of itself is pro-town.

I’ll take your suggestion under advisement. I’m not one who generally believes in pre-emptive claiming for survivalist reasons.

MAGNA SOMEBODY GOTTA SAY A YES MAN DON'T BE PESSIMISTIC ALL THE DAMN TIME DON'T TRY TO BE A HERO NEITHER JUST HIDE BEHIND SOME PROTOWN DUDE AND DO YO THANG.

Do you really expect me to sheep? Really?

Yeah, we gonna kill that Zinive dude when he comes back.
If he comes back.
Hell, ima drop the podium case entirely and SLAUGHTER HIS ASS if he comes back.
Yup.

Hey, here’s a thought – why not elaborate on why Zin is public enemy number 1 but Zdenek and The Butterfly get off scot free for the same offense.

Im not clear what you mean here... can you clarify.

To be clear – I don’t think your question to Fate regarding ‘What breadcrumbs’ is anything but a Null tell.

But it wasn't pointless... it was the REASON why he took fate (and nacho's) posts seriously. Besides that, his paraphrase was in a different universe as to what seacore was implying. a universe that makes the comment look overly scummy.

Do you think his paraphrase was accurate and non-scummy?

I don’t particularly find Seacore’s reaction and explanation very credible so you are not going to convince me that Implosion’s reasoning was bad.

My read on both Nacho and Fate’s posts was that both were pure jokes.

What more is there to follow up with? He asked a few no-thought questions.

If i had asked some little no-brainers like that, would you be as worried about me and scumhunting? Because i can easily pull 4 or 5 of those out of thin air.

The further no-thoughts would have been a very logical place to go if you really thought his post was originally scummy. But VV disappears from your ISO until he makes his return post.

Despite your assertions asking questions to assess alignment, whether you think they are no-brainers, is generally Pro-Town if the responses are followed up on by the asker.

+scumpoints doesn't mean top scum choice. it means +scumpoints.

tbh i haven't even read fate's posts regarding seacore.

When the only suspicion you have articulated outside of Implosion was VV for having scumpoints I find it hard to believe you would ignore what constitutes one of your two scum reads.

And did you just say you were not reading Fate’s post regarding Seacore? Why the hell not? Playing the ‘He’s annoying so I’ll just ignore his posts’ game is at best childish and at worst scumtastic.

@MOD - I'll be V/LA from now until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wow. That's a metric fuckton of posts to catch up on. @_@

Prod-avoiding active-lurking non-content Post Go!!!!

How does anyone have a Town read on Vibe again?

I’ll do a detailed ISO case on Vibebox soon since everyone seems inclinded to let him slide.

Last game we played together was Perpetual MyLo (I think), where I'm almost positive you weren't the one who caught me. So, you don't know my scum meta as well as you think you do, and should watch out from clearing people with weak reasoning.

No, the last game we played together was Disgaea 2 Mafia, where I nailed you Day 2 and although I couldn’t convince the remaining Town players (UK was horribly anti-town that game) I did make it clear enough that Kise Vengekilled your scummy butt.

But this brings up something that disturbs me greatly.

YOU DIDN’T PLAY PERPETUAL MYLO MAFIA.

Nacho you didn’t ever post at under this account that game. The one person who did play in that game that I know is an Alt is Rena.

Who is supposed to be Haylen’s moderating alt.

What disturbs me about that is the recently ended Earth’s Struggle Large Game. In that game Rena was a player in Haylen’s game. When challenged by ZachRulez about this obvious conflict of interest Haylen explained that someone else (Nacho) was using the Rena account.

So is Rena a shared Alt of both of you?

WHO IS ONLINE
Users browsing this forum:

So your litmus test for scummy lurking is predicated on finding players who choose not to turn on the Anonymous browsing ability here on MS? Doesn't that just find lazy players instead?

What is wrong with podium's 'scumhunt'?

Are you seriously asking this question. I pointed out exactly what I disliked about Podium’s ‘scum-hunting’ in my review of the case against him. ISOing me should quickly show you my thoughts on the issue. Be advised that based on prompting that is explianed further in this post I have revised my opinion on his scum-hunting re: Implosion.

And you automatically assumed motivations on my #176..without even criticizing the post in question. Why would you assume a scum motivation if you didn't even analyze it? Horrible.

Really? I thought it was easy to identify ‘SCUM INTENT’ in posts even without being able to identify specific scummy things about the post in question. You’ve said so elsewhere. I’d really like to hear your response to this.

I'm trying to figure things out, and I have found a certain undeniable scumtell, and you have no way to explain it.

I've conceded that you may very well be town, but there's just one more thing holding me back.

These statement need to be equipped with knives and put into a pit until only one emerges the battered and bloody victor. Because they can’t co-exist.

1. If the scum-tell is ‘undeniable’ and he has no way to explain it why bother asking him to do so when there is no Town answer?
2. How can he be likely Town when he’s committed an scum-tell that can’t be explained away?

Personally, the whole 'i caught you coaching thing' is way overused (and overrated) as a scumhunting thing. I've just never seen it, or talked to anyone else that has ever seen it, ACTUALLY happen (in a blatant form like that). But i've seen a ton of people try to use it against someone. i think it's scummy, and is an example of someone taking something small/petty in RVS to try and blow it up. (hey gw, where were u on this bud? i mean... he actually made a case and a vote and everything...)

Funny that you attack my comment as Coaching when I never used that word at all. I said that it was “either a veiled attempt at in-thread communication to a partner of some sort or a reaction test.” Notice that the word coach never appears there. Because it obviously wasn’t coaching.

Communicating in thread to a partner of some sort doesn’t have to imply scum at all. There are any number of roles in Mafia that involve searching for someone to make your role more effective. Weak linked Vigs and activated Masons / Neighbors come to mind off the top of my head. Certainly it could be some sort of scum using coded language to communicate (since per the Mod they do not have Daytalk) or searching by or for a Traitor. Which is still not coaching.

You gloss right over the ‘reaction test’ portion of the statement.

So Podium, why jump to right to the coaching conclusion? Was it the easiest way you could prop up your Townread on Vibe?

MOI remains on the vibe trail, and his 177 has some pretty shoddy arguments in it regarding vibe. i can go into detail if wanted, but im leaving it now out for brevity.

**And dont forget that VV (whose arguments were almost the same as MOI's) had backed down from his case... based on the same discussions that MOI is continuing to force the case with. Interesting, no? **

His 238 also includes some pretty lousy arguments. (i have a post open to him discussing some of this)

Love these posts.

1. For someone who has screamed “PROVE IT TO ME” about any number of statements made towards you so far that you are happy to just call an argument shoddy or lousy without substantiation is at best hypocritical and possibly scummy.
2. Care to prove how VV’s arguments were ‘almost the same’ as mine?
3. How should VV’s willingness to revise his opinion impact my read on Vibebox?
4. I note that use of ‘Interesting’ as a means to slyly suggest something is scummy without directly saying so, which is scummy.

The credibility of his reaction/explanation is a different issue than how that statement was or wasn't in context... which was implosions beef.

How do you feel about his paraphrase?

I looked at the post in general. Implosion quotes Seacores ‘I’m used to being accused” statement and makes a vote with the phrases “Excuses, excuses, excuses”.

The paraphrase does take the statement out of context, looking at Seacore’s ISO 4.

So Implosion gets scum points for attacking a point Seacore didn’t make. In that context I will revise my statement regarding scum-hunting in as much as it applies to Implosion.

but 176 really was a superb post. nobody knows my alignment but me...

I missed this tidbit the first time but would like you to address it more completely?

How is this statement possibly true unless you are some third party? Because either as scum or Town the scum-team would know your alignment.

I don't understand what you mean here.

It means that if you truly believed that VV was scummy you would have further developed that suspicion. By, perhaps, pointing out what you perceived as VV’s total lack of input.

But you didn’t … you made that +scumpoints comment and then blessed VV Town when he defended you.

AGAIN... +scumpoints doesn't necessarily mean it is a top scum choice. It could take the person from null to null leaning scum, or from town to null leaning town, etc.. I had more than 2 scumreads at that point, btw.

Can you show me in your ISO, before the VV post, where you explain your 2 scumreads?

Implosion is obviously 1 based on your ISO 15.

You incorrectly attack Seacore for ‘pontial light distancing’ in the same post.

The rest of the ISO before that was defense posts mainly towards Fate and GW. No assertion of scumminess of either in a credible fashion.

So who were your unspoken other scumreads you had by ISO 17?

"you find it hard to believe i would ignore..." ??? what do you mean?

I think it is pretty clear. I don’t believe that someone you identified as scummy (yes, that is what posting someone has +scumpoints is to me regardless of your wonderful ‘taking null to null leaning scummy’ argument) would disappear from you attention completely, regardless of the ‘fire’ you were taking.

Find me one person outside of this thread that thinks those points weren't valid explanations/rebuttals. This is a scummy misrep.

Ummm, what? Are you asking Ghostwriter here to go outside the thread of an ongoing game and solict feedback as a way to prove that the posts in question were not valid and substantive?

I don’t see why you would possibly say this as it is directly against Site rules (Don’t discuss ongoing games) and thus is an unassailable statement. Ghostwriter can’t do what you ask without purposely breaking site rules and possibly being punished and if he doesn’t you can say “See, I asked for proof and you couldn’t deliver”. Horrible statement to make.

A thought occurs. What if podium is a jester? I'm not sure but I think he might be going out of his way to be scummy... he just ignored my question for the second time in a row, and I'm pretty fucking sure it was on purpose. Or maybe I'm just paranoid.

Insert facepalm speculation here. If podium is a jester approaching the pressure in the manner he did wouldn’t be playing to win.

@Ghostwriter re 240

– In the future if you make a large catch-up post please identify who you are addressing in each point. The way you did it here makes analyzing your input horribly difficult.

Also – what happened to your planned review of Vibebox.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Seacore

– If you expect serial posting or spam posting from me you should expect to be disappointed. I generally post once to twice a Day during the week. I’m not going to flood the thread with short, relatively content free posts.

MoI sitting with his vote on VibeBox while making a case on podium is particularly unproductive.

I have move vote sitting, you know, because I think Vibe is scum. I’ve taken every opportunity to address his posts as they appear. Not good enough for you?

Just because your personal drive to question Podium has waned doesn’t mean I have to ignore him. You already have your personal sheep Nacho to keep you company.

But to further address your concerns – why is Podium’s vote on Ghostwriter or Zdenek’s vote on Seacore less worthy of your disdain? Both were single votes as of your post?

I don't buy it. Plus it is severely outdated. Do you still think so?

Severely outdated? The thread has been open less than 1 full week. Please don’t try to portray this as a read I made in the first week Day 1 and have held til Day 4.

I have already stated he was correct in his attack on implosion. His “scummy actions not a scummy player” post directed at you I find complete fluff now that he’s explained his reasoning. And I stand by his ‘hop’ on Seacore was driven by Fate’s suspicion. On first blush his 'case' on Ghostwriter is less than compelling. I'll have to re-read that exchange later.

There's nothing more annoying than someone who thinks they have an awesome read, and clearly don't. Preperations for a new job have taken up almost all my time since my last post, with my only free time being occupied keeping up with this thread. This has left me no time for analysis.
tl;dr : stfu

First off I’m sure you do find it annoying that I’m calling you scum and not letting up. Whether that’s because you are the poor, innocent person you are claiming or because you are actual scum remains to be seen.

So these preparations for a new job sprung up between Wednesday the 17th when you wrote “POST MOAR” and Thursday the 18th when you posted your last actual content post?

TL;DR – No, I don’t think so. Why don’t you just hang and save us the trouble of replacing your scummy self?

9.98 times out of 10 when someone says 'i think that was an in-game communication' and then VOTES the person for it, they are implying it is coaching. I don't think many would disagree. So that's where 'coaching' came from. if you didn't necessarily think he's scum, and might be some type of town pr, then why attempt to blow his cover?

what did you mean by 'reaction test'? i assumed you meant he was trying to get a reaction from whoever he was talking to... what's scummy about that?

You are so completely wrong about the first portion I don’t know what to say. If I had thought he was Coaching I would have called him on it. You ignored the MANY other examples I provided and provide statistics that you pulled out of your ass (I’d like a cite for 9.98 out of 10 times, otherwise you are just inventing empty statistics to fluff your position).

That vote and statement was reaction fishing on my part. I picked up on his odd comment, tacked on several possible motivations that might explain what he was doing, and then voted for him.

He could have reacted in any number of ways. He could have reacted like you did and questioned me on a coaching accusation. He could have called it role-fishing if he was a Town player trying to find a partner. He could have said it was reaction-fishing, which isn’t scummy at all.

But he did none of these. He threw on a façade of indifference and tried to play the "I'm too good to give you guys any information" game.

1. Don't misrep me. i SPECIFICALLY said i would include more detail if someone wanted it, but that i was leaving it out for brevity... as i was making a game-wide analysis.

Yet you didn’t include the specifics now when I specifically made issue of it. You made unbacked accusations. I’m not particularly impressed that you thought to include the “I’ll do it later” caveat. Your excuse that it was a game-wide analysis doesn’t hold water. You took the time to support your assertion, in that post, that my attack on Vibe was based on coaching. Why go to the specific trouble of providing direct links to said posts (which require you to ISO them for the URL) and not provide the purpoted scummy logic directly in your post?

Sure, there might have been a non-shared point here and there, but this seemed to be the primary focus of each argument.

Way to quote mine, as it were. You nicely sniped off the other portion of my ISO 1 which said the following

Spamming the thread just to post hardly qualifies as either scum-hunting or being useful.

Nice of you to ignore my call of his play as spamming and not scum-hunting.

3. you cant understand that? i thought vibe's explanation was sufficient, so did VV. when you didn't, i found it interesting... because i dont know how much better he could have explained things. sure, it's a very subjective thing... that's why i said it was interesting.

I can clearly understand it. You said it was interesting that I didn’t back off when VV did. You didn’t mention that his subsequent retraction had to do with labelling Vibe’s post as IIOA, which I never did. And you are correct it is very subjective. Why again should I be substituting your reads for my own?

4. hah. the ole 'interesting' bit (which was the semantics issue seacore went after, in the game that you mentioned earlier). are you trying to tell me, that in a post in which I expressed strong suspicion of you, that because i used the word interesting, you dont know my intent towards you? this wasn't anything you did, and it is a subjective and possibly nullish observation... that's why it's interesting. sometimes when someone says 'interesting', they are just using the word.

I attack your semantics because the use of interesting in that sentence is scummy. You’ve stated that you were putting me under heavy suspicion in that post. If that is the case why are you presenting ‘Nullish’ information in the middle of a post trying to outline my scummy behavior? There is no pro-Town motivation for doing so.

I note with interest that you reference AGM’s game with Seacore. You do remember that Seacore was going after Deer, who was scum, in the early part of the game when he attacked on the use of ‘interesting’, right? Thanks for supporting my statement!

i didn't know that i had to provide all possible qualifiers every time i said something like this. a day-cop could know my role to... it was just a figure of speech.

Then it was a poorly placed ‘figure of speech’ that flies in the face of very basic Mafia information. Why do you so often tack on 'figures or speech' or inaccurate information as a means to prop up your arguments?

Dont assume what i might have perceived, or that i believed VV was scummy. A scummy action does not always equate to a scummy player.

What was your purpose for pointing out scummy actions if you didn’t think it came from a scummy player? It certainly isn’t scum-hunting if you make an entire post dedicated to VV’s scummy bahavior that doesn’t indicate in any way you think he may be scum.

Implosion and seacore. Just because YOU think my attack was 'incorrect' (and hey, i'll hit you with the same sort of qualifier gotcha... how could you know it was incorrect, unless you know their roles? ) doesn't mean that i didn't express that i was suspicious of him being a scum partner.

But was it scummy behavior by Seacore or do you actually think he is a scummy player?

I call it incorrect because you backed off of that suspicion at ISO 18 shortly after you made it. So I’m following your suggestion.

And not to be too nitpicky you actually said you had MORE than 2 scum-reads when you made your VV ‘this is scummy actions but not a scummy player’ post. So besides implosion and Seacore (who you soon backed off) who were your other scum-reads that made our total more than 2?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also, just for clarity. In the AGM game, from memory, I didn't think I'd caught scum with deer. Other people kept interpreting my comment as catching scum. I was simply saying that people should avoid making 'fluff' statements like "interesting" when they should be saying "looks scummy" "looks town" "suggests a relationship between A and B" or whatever.

I understand your statement here but want to clarify. I wasn’t trying to assert that you thought you had nailed Deer as scum for that language. I’m saying that example, with others I have directly witness, support the notion that use of specific language in leiu of saying something is scummy directly is a valid scum-tell.

Here you are.

VibeBox's posting is terrible, but it is so bad that I wouldn't guess scum would do it. So for me the question is: is VibeBox scum gambitting? I could go either way on this question.

Too scum to be scum followed by fence-sitting noted.

Magna: is one scum tell always enough to incriminate someone? Do you think that it is scummy of Fate to both think that Podium is town and that he has found one undeniable scum tell?

Once I get a response to those questions I posed I’ll respond.

Implosion’s 410

is so full of scum that I now must do an ISO read on him. That much fence-sitting and non-commitment to any alignments in a large ‘catch-up’ post after being called on lurking is what I’d expect from scum not sure how to actively scum-hunt.

ISO 1 – 2 – As has been stated by VV and Podium the early attack on Seacore looks scummy. If he had made a RVS vote and not pressed the point it would be Null. But attacking the statement out of context is scummy.

ISO 4 – Votes for Podium and places a strong relationship between Podium and Seacore.

ISO 5 – Responds to Ghost’s question about his null read on Ghost and Nacho by saying he’d actually lean Town on both. He states neither has made any suspicious moves and that since Town is the majority he would go that way.

Reads as appeasement of Ghostwriter. He had listed Ghost and Nacho not 10 minutes before as neutral. Now, when questioned as to why he had that read the resulting explanation is that really they are likely Town.

ISO 6 – Further explains read on Podium as scum for not scum-hunting. Also defends his lack of scum-hunting as being busy.

ISO 8 – Jester speculation.

Making a list of suspects, saying someone is scum, taking a goddamn opinion with legitimate reasoning within the first 50 posts you make... all of these constitute scumhunting. Maybe a better phrase would be taking stances. podium has taken no stances that actually had good reasoning behind them.

In context of his latest post this is noteworthy.

The problem I have about your post is that I honestly don't think an honest, rational person could come to the conclusion that podium is obviously town. A dishonest, rational person could come to such a conclusion.

Further information for reviewing his opinion change on Podium.

And finally we have this –

podium - ISO 98-100 are nice. And yes, I definitely tunneled too much, and I still don't know why. Either way, 98-100 are all very good analysis. He looks town at this point.

@Implosion

– Are you stating that 98-100 is credible scum-hunting and has reversed your opinion (shown in your ISO up until ISO 17) on Podium.

Not usually. Although I think I did tunnel too much. I don't know why. I'm thinking straighter now.

Translation – the popular wagon on Podium fell apart and now I have to move in a different direction.

[MagnaofIllusion]

GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE

– Happy Thanksgiving to those who celebrated Thursday. And yes I am totally claiming the role of Turketron right now [/off sarcasm]

ATTENTION Implosion

– Not having a recent VC I’m not sure if you are at L-2 or L-1 and don’t really care to go back and reconstruct a VC. See below for further thoughts on why you are scum. If you are at L-1 I am prepared to hammer you. Claim if that situation is correct. I see no reason to draw out the process when you look pretty scummy.

At this stage I’m all for Vibe / Implosion swinging today (as prior posts and later comments in this post reinforce). I have a couple of other scum reads I think I’ll put in my back pocket for the moment.

Vibebox's analysis was ok... but i am less than impressed with his conclusions.

Other than disliking being called scum any reasoning behind this. Results quality should generally follow analysis quality so I’m not sure I’m not seeing anything but a self-serving fluff here.

@Podium

– You ask Vibe to clarify his read on you. He ignores that request with his little song and dance at 458. Your reaction is to call of GW or Seacore votes? Umm, what? Not an ounce of pressure towards Vibe?

I've seen scum claim to be experimenting with a new style, apologise and then try to play nice. Then they flip scum, hey MoI?

Aside from the ongoing game concerns this makes me laugh. Because you obviously couldn’t have been more wrong LOL.

This post was talking about VV, and I now realize that I really wasn't thinking straight when I wrote this.

Yes indeed it was about VV but the thrust is of the statement was pretty compelling – you didn’t think any correct thinking Town player could come to the conclusion that VV did (that Podium was Town). You came as close as possible to calling VV scum without outright saying it.

Whammo – suddenly a little later in the thread both Podium and VV are Town.

Your excuse about not thinking straight is at best weak. The whipsaw in your opinions on two players from Scum reads to suddenly Town reads is jarring to my sensibilities.

If you think he's bussing, then why would he put me in the ??? category?

Horrible point. He’s possibly bussing you for jumping onto your wagon for craptastic reasons (I’ll sheep a Townread despite having Scum-reads). Putting you in the ??? category allows him to back of much easier later if your wagon dissolves. Which is what scum want to do when bussing partners.

Since Fate is by far my strongest Town read, and implosion is on my ??? list, I'm going to Vote: implosion.
Hopefully Friday I can comb through things I had marked "of interest" in my notes, and provide analysis.

HOW ARE YOU PEOPLE NOT VOTING FOR THIS GUY

. The later argument that he doesn’t feel he has to vote for ‘scummy’ reads is so craptastic I can’t comprehend it.

Vibe is doing everything he can to absolve himself from any responsibility for actually having an opinion.

I don't really have anything to say about the issue of the "clarity" of my reasoning until post-game.
I mainly just wanted to quote you chastising me for providing reads.

So you don’t want to actually discuss your in-game play until post-game? Ok, that’s new. Not going to ignore your play for this reason but I appreciate the unique spin.

And I love the mis-rep. I’m not chastising your for providing reads but for providing reads that looks concocted not from actual scum-hunting but formed to appeal to popular opinion.

Fun Fact: Words can mean different things in different contexts! :teach:

Fun fact – flippant responses that don’t address the original statement are Tech.

You used cute in the exact same context I did – please don’t try to dismiss your usage as proper and Town oriented but mine as scummy. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

And unlike Podium, I've only had a handful of posts.

So if you lurk or active lurk that absolves you from any sort of scum-hunting?

So? Shouldn't you be happy to have reads when half the players weren't even posting?

Look it’s the Nine year old defense. “Why are giving me a hard time about INSERT BEHAVIOR HERE, those guys over there are worse”. Other players flaking from the game does not mean your craptastic, content free reads are suddenly gold.

Everyone here is hiding something. I cannot help that not being 100% transparent is considered scummy by some (stupid) people.

Yes, because the gap between what you were doing and 100% transparency was that razor thin.

Not sure where this snark came from. You struck me as a better player than this up until now.

This was addressed to GhostWriter but I want everyone to see the inconsistency here –

Vibe has claimed to put on an abrasive playstyle for the first part of the game yet here is equating someone using a snarky attitude in a post as sub-standard play.

[MagnaofIllusion]

First issue first – Implosion’s Claim

I'm Master Shake. Mason with Ghost. And also a flavor cop (I can investigate to find what character someone is, I think).

I love the fact that Mod’s explicitly stated information that material flavor would not equal game flavor is being ignored in assuming Master Shake is Town. That’s tech.

I also don’t feel real positive about the Flavor Cop aspect. If his representation is accurate (being able to find what character someone is) then I don’t see it as very helpful in determining who is Scum in light of my first comment.

That said the fact that Implosion and Ghost are irrevocably linked together by the claim makes me somewhat assured they are both Town.

@implosion

– Please check with the Mod regarding what kind of results you get from your Flavor Cop and how they would help determine who is scum.

.... why has no one thought "if nacho was scum"...

I’m sure many people have. If I didn’t have a Meta-read on Nacho I’d want him strung up for uselessness. But I have said Meta-read.

And if implosion HADNT claimed flavor cop it would make scum WIFOM about whether to kill the masons or go for a more dangerous PR. C'est la vie though...

And certainly now that he claimed Flavorcop there will be no WIFOM surrounding potential Doc protection for the Mafia to deal with ….

You are considering hammering WHO?

WHAT IS THIS I DONT EVEN

UNVOTE:
VOTE: KCDASPOT

YOU EITHER HAVE NO CONCEPT OF THE GAME OF MAFIA OR YOU ARE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE SCUM.

Knock this crap off Right Now! You had your vote on obv-scum Vibe. Why this bullshit ‘outrage’? Vibe, WHO HAS ONCE AGAIN GONE INTO THE WITNESS PROTECTION PROGRAM OF LURKING DUE TO CONTINUED PRESSURE, needs the rope as badly as people need air.

and the lower your view of me goes, the more likely you'll underestimate you, which is great if we don't share an alignment.

And you’ve certainly worked hard to lower that opinion with your MEGA-SHEEP PLUS ASS-KISS TECHNIQUE that you’ve employed. That said why did you have to go and point out the obvious above to Podium? It is clear he wasn’t getting it.

votes should be on seacore, but something tells me what 'should' and 'shouldn't' happen isn't going to play a big part in this game.

Hey look – What’s missing from this post – reasons why your OPINION of what ‘should’ happen is something anyone should listen to. As in reason Seacore is scum.

Perhaps you missed where vibebox chose to vote for a ??? read over a scum read. That was the conclusion that i was referring to.

See … this kind of post makes my skin crawl. You ignore the fact that I attacked Vibe for that VERY THING at the top of said post you quoted from. Which means you are skimming looking for your name to pop up. That’s not behavior I expect from Town.

Dont claim unless there are people willing to hammer. Unnecessary claims are christmas presents to scum.

It's very easy to find out if there are people willing to hammer.

Are there 2 people willing to hammer? If there aren't, then we need to go a different direction.

This post screams of Unnecessary Town Teaching TM, which is a good scum-tell. Stating that unnecessary claims are good for scum is stating the obv.

And we have further skimming as both Zdenek and I have both stated we are willing to hammer and others have repeated that information.

But hey... let's continue to ignore GW's scummy behavior and trainroll the VI.

Are you trying to say that GW’s posts towards implosion don’t show a clear Mason attitude?

But, based on what i've seen so far with this town's scumhunting abilities, the support probably would have come.

Good job all you pro scum hunters on his wagon.

Blooop Blooop Blooop … what’s that Batman? It’s the Scumdar going off big time.

Implosion’s play was second perhaps to only Vibebox in scumminess. That you are now throwing barbs at the wagon is a sign of scum with inside knowledge trying to establish Town Cred TM for not being associated what would have been a bad lynch.

I thought MOI had already made his post before seacore said he wasn't comfortable... looking back there is no contradiction.

I dont really see anything to comment on about the new guy. I still feel Seacore is the scummiest player so far.

So this whole last attack by you on Seacore was craptastic and wrong.

Any why again is Seacore scum yet your vote is sitting on Vibe? Are you not willing to really push your bus on Vibe?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Before I forget KCDA’s comment about Vibe’s ISO 14 made me review it and brought something to my attention.

I will also leave a reads list.
Town
Fate
Nachomamma8
GhostWriter
Zdenek

Scum
VasudeVa
Seacore
podium123456

???
The Butterfly
MagnaofIllusion
implosion

You know what kills me that I missed before. This list should have 11 reads on it (all the alive players exluding Vibe himself. Yet I count 10.

After consulting the tea-leaves (also know as the original player list) and looking at who replaced who I come up with the following missing ‘read’.

Zinive (who is now Red Coyote)

If Vibebox is going to bother to answer I have to ask – why was this slot not included in your ??? list? You included TheButterfly who hadn’t bothered to post.

[MagnaofIllusion]

RedCoyote if you really are going to be this apathetic just replace out. I don’t really have much patience for someone who says they really are tired of reading the game.

I can’t say as I find KCDA’s final catch-up post as very whelming. His two scum-reads nicely mimic the most popular suspects of the Day so far. The back-peddling of his stance on Nacho (first questioning why he isn’t being called scum and then calls him Town for now even though Nacho displays many traits he doesn’t like). Bears further scrutiny as the day continues.

I have clearly stated my case several times.

On two separate occasions you have retracted stated suspicion of Seacore (once early and your recent recant of the whole hammer / not hammer situation). I’m not going to slog through your ISO to see what case you made and then try to decide what parts of it you later reversed course on. You want my support? Provide a nice summary of why he’s scum that contains all the stuff you still actually stand by.

That was sarcasm, as your criticism didn't really make sense. You said that if i found his analysis to be satisfactory, then i should have also found his conclusion satisfactory (paraphrasing). That isn't true.

Pro-tip – dismissing questions with sarcasm instead of answering them isn’t Pro-Town.

I’m not going to get into a debate with your over whether a solid analysis should lead to solid conclusions. That’s a logic debate that has nothing to do with scum-hunting. Just know for the record I think you are wrong.

I asked you why I shouldn’t see your original statement as self-serving because the first thing you didn’t like about his conclusions wasn’t his vote for a ??? read but that he found you to be scummy.

You carefully didn’t answer that concern of mine in any way. You simply tried to deflect it with patented Podium sarcasm TM.

So again – why shouldn’t I think your original post was more based on your dislike of his read on you as opposed to failure to actually vote a scum read? We’ve already discussed you seem willing to let direct questions to him go unanswered when he did make a rare post.

Pretty sure i said that before the claims came out.

I went back to actually trace that timeline to be certain since you were only pretty sure.

Implosion posted his claim in 469 at 2:10am. You posted the point I quoted at 470 at 2:11am. So you do get the benefit of the doubt for being a lazy cross-poster who doesn’t use the preview function. That said your statement was clearly not before the claim.

And once again you don’t answer the question put to you – are you trying to say that the was Ghost approached the Implosion situation did not appear to be that of a Mason buddy?

In your opinion... i found seacore and GW to be much scummier. I thought implosion was probably a VI... and i was right.

Yes it is my opinion. That’s what this game is about. I didn’t find Ghost scummy and Implosion’s claim at this juncture seems to give me more credibility on that front, huh?

Also – you are using the term VI wrong. Implosion may not be a stellar player but he’s far from a VI. That’s reserved for the worst of the worst. You look to be using the term as a means to undermine what we currently think is a Town confirmed player.

My vote is on seacore.

Uh oh! Looks like somebody is skimming! /sarcasm

Joy, more pointless sarcasm.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, now that I’ve caught the thread up I need to explicitly say something right now before Town hangs Vibe and moves on to using ultra-cool powers like a Boss Guitar with all the Superpowers of Foreigner (Let me fill your eyes with … Double Vision) –

Nacho’s sheeping and leg-humping of Fate combined with his self-admitted lack of actual contribution to the game have reached epic levels of ridiculousness.

There are a couple of Town reasons and one big Scum reason for this sort of crap from Nacho.

Since I tend to die well before my time I will say for the record –

If the game gets to the point where there both Fate and Nacho are alive and of unconfirmed alignment and real questions exist as to whether one or the other is scum the following course of action is the best one – Lynch Nacho not Fate.

That is all. I feel better about making sure this is public record.

Also, Loverboy sucks.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You know what this thread really is missing as of late? Any sort of VV presence at all. Especially since he's been posting in other games since his last post here.

Is once enough to say that i am 'willing to let questions go unanswered'? Seems a little sensationalist. Have i done it more than once? I cant recall that i have.

You are trying to move the goal-posts here. It isn’t that you’ve done it on a repeated basis. Nice deflection attempt. The issue is that you directly asked Vibe why you were scum. Vibe then makes a generic, useless post and ignores your question. Your response? Nada. Nothing. I wasn’t until I pointed that out this fact that you say “Oh yeah, forgot that’ and re-ask the question.

If you really were interested in getting the information from Vibe you would have followed up on it. That’s behavior I believe is definitely more likely to come from scum.

You asked me about my opinion of Imp/GW mason connection based on what i said in that quote, but that quote obviously wasn't pertaining to that connection. I didn't answer it because it was irrelevant to the quote context -- not because i was deflecting.

This is horrible justification for not answering a direct question to you. Your post indicated (you failing to actually look at the preview aside) that he had suspicion of GW. Thus I asked you if you didn’t think Ghostwriter’s play indicated he was a Mason with Implosion. That you deemed it not worth answering because the quote that triggered the question was tangentially related is a poor justification.

I only said in your opinion, because you were factually criticizing my play based on your personal opinion.

But the only 100% independent facts in a Mafia game are the publicly provided information from the Mod (and in a slightly Bastard game as Mod advertised this). All the rest is opinion of the players provided at its base.

Fine, what do you want me to say? Bad town? Noob town? Does it matter? How does that undermine anything? It is what it is.

You spend a good amount of time in this game throwing insults and aspersions at other players (Implosion is a VI, everyone on the Implosion wagon are ‘Pro’ scum-hunters). There isn’t a Pro-Town motivation to undermine Implosion if you think he is likely a Town Mason.

And what standard do you judge Implosion to be ‘bad Town’? Is it because he amassed a sizeable wagon for his play?

I’ll look over your Seacore case as presented in full a little later but wanted to make the following observations –

i was initially susp. of him dropping implosions accusation so quickly. since then, i have pulled this back to a null observation.

You pulled back because others (Fate, IIRC) pointed out that your assertion was wrong and Seacore didn’t drop it quickly. I note you didn’t directly link this point like you did all the others.

* in this post he states that he is getting close to voting for me, but wants to think about it over the weekend. 10 minutes later

(and with nothing additional from me) he votes for me.

I’d like to point out that the bolded portion is an outright lie.

Seacore makes his statement at 128.

You respond with a question to Seacore at 131.

You make a response to Fate at 133.

Seacore responds to your 131 at 134 and then votes you at 135.

To say there was nothing additional from you is a lie.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Magna: my investigations tell me what character someone is (like I thought). IDK exactly how this is supposed to help me catch scum, but it could be that they're suspicious characters (Dr. weird and his crew, the aliens, etc) and have fakeclaims. Just a thought.

I don’t think this is very likely the case Implosion. Mod has stated that you will not be able to break the game by relying on source flavor. Given that many of characters in ATHF would be flavor wise likely to be viewed as Scum I think simply going on a character alone is unlikely to yeild successes in the scum-hunting realm.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It's speculative. iirc the mod stated that the game was designed so a massclaim wouldn't break it, which could mean fakeclaims.

Or it just as likely means that the flavor is completely scrambled. I can show you any number of Theme games where no fake-claims were involved and the source flavor was in some way subverted (Kingdom of Loathing Mafia, Lost Season 1 and 2 Mafia, etc).

I should vote here, but being i don't wanna be the hammer and i don't like podium i'll just vote him.
A) he has no one on him so he shouldn't whine too much I hope
B) I still have my gripes about his play but seeing that we won't come to an agreement today I'll just lay my vote there

P.S. If you do become in danger of being lynched today and I DO feel that you haven't be rightly givin a chance to defend I WILL unvote you but due to the odds of ever being in that scenario are high mainly because of vibe. is this OK?

Why do you not want to hammer?

Why go through such a convoluted thought process to ask Podium for his permission to vote him and explain in detail you will likely UNVOTE if he is wagonned?

If somebody gets either mooninite or either plutonian, we should lynch them. If they flip with that role but not the expected alignment, we don't do it again. But unless we're close to lylo or mylo, I think it's worth one try.

Implosion, how familiar are you with Aqua Teen Hunger Force, will you recognise potentially scummy characters? MC Pee Pants and the 4 aliens are probably the most familiar bad guys. I don't think the professor would count but he could.

Seacore take a quick gander through the ATHF and tell me if you REALLY think that any characters really qualify as ‘Villans’

The Moonities are basically juvenile delinquents. The Plutonians are basically morons. Most of the characters are more harmless than evil.

Hell their Landlord I would classify as more evil than anyone else off the top of my head.

There's no need to be dramatic. You should thank you're lucky stars someone like me would bother getting into this cesspool. That's not to say that I'm gracing you with my presence or anything, but that you now have a player in this slot who won't abandon the game.

Again, though, if you seriously think this game needs "more discussion" as a solution, then you're way off base, my friend. That's why everyone is leaving in droves. That's why people like VibeBox are afraid to so much as look at this thread, let alone post in it. If you don't post a wall commenting on every like detail then you're made to look as though you're apathetic.

It is far from dramatic RC. And I’ll only respond to your suggestion that the volume of posts is driving people off with the following truth – Reading isn’t a hardship.

I’d really like to see Vibebox come in and actually post content with reasoning. All he’s done so far is play defense and make unsupported reads lists coupled with generic game theory.

I felt similarly, but why do you think Nacho has taken to him?

Because Nacho is going out of his way to be useless and Anti-Town for whatever reason he has.

It's a wonder players like MoI and Nacho don't seem to get it.

I carved this particular sentence out to say quite honestly its crap. My interactions with Podium took off well after he and Fate / Nacho has stopped Spam-bombing the thread. I’m questioning Podium to get a read on his alignment. He’s hardly being bombarded by me faster than he can respond and aside from KCDA no-one else is interacting strongly with him currently. We can continue to disagree as to playstyles if you like but I doubt it will really get us anywhere scum-hunting wise.

I mostly agree with this in a kneejerk sort of way, but we should be resistant to assuming anything so broad, as MoI has pointed out. Did the Mod tell us whether or not the game has barrier? Is the entire franchise fair game, or just a certain amount of seasons? I've only seen up through season 6. An episode I think we can rely on, and I don't remember the number but I'm pretty sure it was season 4, where most of the "bad guys" met together on the Moon at the Mooninites' invitation.

The Mod has indicated nothing other than that the game might be ‘slightly bastard’. That said answer the following question –

In a series with probably 100+ secondary characters and antagonist and at best 4 protagonists (Frylock, Shake, Meatwad and maybe Carl) do you honestly think the informed minority Scum team is in any way shape or form going to be easy to spot?

I honestly don't think so. Hell at this point I'd be willing to take a wild guess and say Meatwad isn't really dead but is the Mafia team Godfather.

You people have even managed to wear Fate out. How shameful.

Umm he’s posted this in all his games. Seeing as Fate was one of the main culprits behind the many pages I don't think he's been worn out by this thread.

[MagnaofIllusion]

At this juncture someone just needs to hammer Vibe. He’s either purposely lurking (I do believe he’s been prodded) or has completely flaked from the site. In either the game has ground to a halt. No-one seems inclinded to do further scum-hunting so RedCoyote’s point about moving to a new day may be valid.

My final scum-reads of the day (as preparation for the usual N1 shenanigans) –

Vibe

– I’ve said plenty on this.

KCDA

– I find his play to be fairly reminiscent of newbie scum. He’s backed off when challenged on pretty much any issue so far. His replace in post lists basically the two Main suspects (Vibe and Podium) as his top scum picks. Lots of active lurking fluff.

VV

– He tends to lurk as scum, especially when others are under fire. Yes, I know he has internet problems but those were mentioned only after I brought up his lurking (making it Null at best) His main suspects (made during his active period) were GW and Nacho. GW is for the moment cleared by implosion’s claim and he really never develops his case on Nacho outside of ISO 9 where he declares him a secondary suspect to GW. Note this relationship should either VV or Nacho flip scum.

I’d be surprised if none of these three are scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I previously threw up a flag about MOI, and he has been on the wrong side of my gut for a while now. With his recent tunneling on me, i didn't want to press that issue too much because i didnt think i would get any support behind it, and i didnt want to get into another mega post off with MOI after this already lengthy D1.

Really? You were afraid to speak out because you were fearful of not having support? Not a Pro-Town mindset.

Its settled then, the shepards cane is in the other hand now.

I never liked the way he reacted to me asking him to claim vanilla.

Vibes flaking is null, and lynching him without a claim is wasteful and anti town.

Funny how you’ve been oh so busy but suddenly perk up with quite horrible reasons.

You are suggesting that my not claiming Vanilla Town (whether it is true or not) under no pressure is Scummy? Laughable.

Unvote. Wait... :/. Didn't you read the whole thing on me getting cut loose?

How long exactly were we supposed to wait with baited breath?

No. I chose him because I saw his name at the bottom; I would've awarded him some town points had he came back.

So he’s scummy for having been viewing Coney Island (but not necessarily this thread) and not coming back after you posted? You can’t be positive he even saw your post in that window of time since threads don’t register individual view. Rather useless as evidence of scum behaviour based on those facts.

Fate is most likely the most efficent scumhunter on this list when he's on his game. Sheeping everything he does and making him a doublevoter made him twice as dangerous to scum, whether they are on his team or not.

Um, what? Sheeping Fate,

even if he is scum

, makes him doublely dangerous to scum? No, it doesn’t and that’s stupid logic to say the least. Even if he is Town blindly following him around only serves to insultate yourself from flack.

Magna had no reason at all to post this as town. Exposing town reads that early is a TERRIBLE idea. It would've been far more beneficial for him to hold onto that read until later, so he could 1) Check and see if his read on me was correct, and 2) See who attacked me, and then looked to see if their attacks read as bad logic or going after an easy target.
As scum, it was weak reasoning for confirming me as town so he didn't have to attack me. Attacking me would've gotten him on Fate's bad side, and he definitely would've wanted to avoid that as scum. In other words, he could take the "I am Not a Yes Man" position, but still not go against Fate.

No, giving my read on you based on Meta isn’t a terrible idea. Sorry. Your meta of lurking as scum unless directly pressured is pretty consistent. Disgaea 2 Mafia and the recently ended Secret Invasion Mafia are clear examples. You aren’t lurking here. Thus my read. True, you fanboy following of Fate could be a scum-tactic to sidle up to the player you just said is the most effective scum-hunter.

As for your reasoning why it makes me scum it falls flat on its face assuming I’m worried about getting on Fate’s bad side. I’m not.

In addition, there's the constant tunneling until post #414, but that's not even the bad part. As soon as implosion becomes the lead wagon, OH LOOK MAGNA GOT A CASE ON HIM. Then, when discussion of a claim being needed starts, OH LOOK MAGNA IS READY TO HAMMER HIM. This is the definition of opportunistic, considering his significant interactions had completely been limited to vibe and podium (read: no interactions with implosion at all), and now he's willing to drop his case on Vibe completely and hammer implosion? No. I don't buy that for a second.

Are you saying Town shouldn’t be receptive to looking at a player and making a read after pushing for someone else? Thought not. And now I’m scum for assessing Implosion’s play as scummy and facilitiating his claim that you were clamouring for earlier? Yeah, not much consistency there.

I love the caps by the way. Doesn’t make your case stronger but sure makes you look ‘all tough’.

His interactions with podium also went on for far, far too long. He interacted with him almost as long as he interacted with Vibe, and guess what? He STILL hasn't offered a strong read on him yet. Ever heard of pushing a wagon without being on it? Yeah, this is it. Oh, and tunneling on a player to avoid commenting on other happenings in the game? Oh yeah, it's that too.

If I were scum I wouldn’t have to interact with Podium to get a read on him, would I? Nope. Inference that I haven’t offered a strong read on Podium being scummy is lacking. I’ll make my personal reads as necessary on my terms.

What other happenings in the game wasn’t I commenting on? It certainly wasn’t commenting on KCDA’s entrance or discussing points with RedCoyote. Was it your fluffy active lurking? Please elaborate what other happenings I was avoiding.

ISO #14 is a weak, indirect attack. Of course he gives no reason for his read, he only says that I need to be lynched before Fate. Then, he tries to strengthen this in ISO #18 by tying me to VV.

Ah, the crux of the matter. ISO 14 was made for a reason. Those who are not you probably can see why.

Also, why so worried suddenly about being linked to VV? Other than your weak response to VV’s initial soft attack on you I see nothing in your ISO (during a quick scan) that indicates you think he is scum. Yet suddenly I bring up the possible link and you are spring to life like a rabid squirrel. It’s as if you know VV is scum and don’t want to be tied to him.

^Town. Him trying to use his replacing out against him is all I needed to see that.

Then why has your vote been parked on him? Please don’t say it is because sheeping Fate is an effective strategy. If you thought what you said above (and let’s see some support, shall we?) you shouldn’t be voting for a Town player if you aren’t scum.

^Town. He's backing off when challenged on any issue + main two suspects as top scum picks equals... NEWBIE PLAYING WITH EXPERIENCED PEOPLE. I mean, seriously Magna. Could you imagine playing in this game as your first game?

You don’t address why those behaviours aren’t indicative as possible new scum. Are you saying Newb scum aren’t more likely to back down when challenged by experienced vets as opposed to flailing like Newb Town tends to when pressured?

^Scum. Look, his case is extraordinarily weak (lurking? really?), and look at how he sets himself up for when VV flips scum: He implicated an unconfirmed townie (me), plus he tries to cast doubt on GW's mason claim ("is for the moment cleared"). It's a two-for-one deal, and all he has to do is bus his buddy and get a little town cred to collect on it.

Lurking is solid VV scum meta. I observe and offer my opinion. I implicate you if VV Iis scum, a player of unconfirmed alignment for just the reasons stated – VV’s very weak assertion that you were scum while pressing someone else (GW) that never reappeared (he moved to implosion). Classic soft scum distancing from each other to be aware of.

I love that you try to suggest my caveat on GW’s status he is something scummy or new. Implosion’s claim can possibly (not likely, but possibly) be a fake-claim using a buddy. Being Town who doesn’t know any alignment but my own I have to take that possibility into account. Why don’t you have the possibility in the back of your mind Nacho? Is it because you do know they are Town since you are scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

what i was doing there was correcting MOI's attempt to twist a misunderstanding (at best) into something scummy.

Incorrect. Pointing out the avoided the question with repeated semantics games isn’t twisting. Not that given your history in this game of trying to use charged and tainting language against anyone who questions you I expect any less.

Why are you relying on metas for reads? theres enough info in thread to say who's who. all we really need to do is read really...

Because I can. Meta, used properly, is a valuable tool.

If there is enough info in the thread to say ‘who’s who’ why do you keep saying you don’t have anything to say? Shouldn’t you have something at all to say if there is sufficient info?

[MagnaofIllusion]

You're the vet not me... yeah I'm going to pull the noob card here, what are you gonna do about it?

Still trying to work out how being a vet means meta isn’t something that should be used.

Wait, wait, wait. This is perking up? He's sheeping me. You know, how I've been sheeping him THE ENTIRE GAME?

It’s perking up because he’s been missing for his LA and suddenly he pops in to sheep your case. Nice of you to make a semantics argument rather than address that his reasoning is poor.

You couldn't wait one day without calling for a hammer?
I mean, I could see impatience if you posted more than once a day, but...

First nice sly attempt to assert that by posting on a regular schedule (once a day) and not spamming I must be scum. Classic.

I’ve waited for you to provide content all game long. I figured your statement was just more empty active-lurking on your part.

Wow, you're going wild on this.
I chose to pressure him arbitrarily. I didn't think he was scummy.

So you pointed out he was online. If he had come back he got Town points but if he didn’t it wasn’t scummy? So you were just pressuring for Town reads? I'd say I was confused about your motivation in that post but it's now crystal clear ... it was just a way to active lurk.

And before you ask a really stupid question, the link is why Fate scum is still dangerous to scum.

So one specific game where Fate bussed his buddies D1 and D2 as a Godfather and went on to victory is evidence that it’s a good Town strategy to sheep him as scum? Town lost that game, regardless of how dangerous he was to his partners.

Also, it's also noted that your meta read was first "Nachoscum doesn't play stupid" to "Nachoscum lurks". Yeah, not much consistency there.

Ok. I didn’t use consistent language. Sue me.

Right. So hardcore tunneling on someone then dropping their case immediately when a bigger wagon comes around is "being receptive"? I'll remember that the next time I'm scum...

Tunneling indicates I didn’t do anything but attack Vibe and only Vibe. Which is false.

No, I post segments of my case in caps so at least you read a little of it.

No no no Nacho. You’ve gotten yourself all turned around. It’s the Caps Lawk Alliance who actually doesn’t read posts. Once you sheep Fate enough I’m sure they will let you in. Or are you a member? I can't say that I care that much to keep track outside of Fate and Elli.

VV being scum for lurking was higher on your list than podium. Guess what? That's not a strong read, Magna.

Thanks for missing the point. I haven’t given a read on Podium. Once again … as Town I have to form reads. I’ll let you know when I’ve decided on Podium. That’s part of being the Uninformed Minority.

I don't know, maybe implosion before his wagon became the lead one? And gosh, I can think of that from the top of my head! Imagine what I could find if I looked back through the thread... Do you really want me to do that? I might find more of your scumbuddies on the way.

If you really were doing anything with grandstanding you would have done so. But you didn't. Feel free to look back. Pro-Tip … you will not find any buddies since I’m not scum. But thanks for the empty threat.

Magna, I think I love you. You inferred I was OMGUS'ing by referring to a post you made... when? After #400? When I had a discussion about you being scum?

Is the discussion that you are alluding to the exchange where you and Fate fluff back and forth about me being scum? Just want to be sure. Because a discussion usually entails actual content. That I thought was just you guys trying to be funny. Were you serious?

You say this like a fleeting mention of me being tied to your #3 scumread could have worried me that much.

Um, when again did I call VV my #3 read? That would be never. I listed my scum-reads. You jumped to the conclusion that they were necessarily ordered in outside of Vibe being obv-scum. And it obviously did strike a nerve based on your reaction. You can do better than that Nacho.

Also, your "you haven't mentioned VV as scum" comment is dumb. Think, Magna. What have I been doing this entire time? You said it pretty well yourself.

What does that imply? Not contributing reads, being useless overall... That means that I'm not sharing my reads, contributing to the game any sort of original thought... I'm following Fate.

Ok, so you can adopt a strategy of sheeping someone and then point to that and say “I didn’t mention VV because Fate didn’t’? Nice hand-off of responsibility for your play there. It’s not your fault you didn’t mention VV and he did classic scum soft distancing toward you – Fate controls your actions.

It's not like I *knew* he was town, you know. That would require me to be scum.

Just like me knowing Podium’s alignment would require me to be scum.

If it was THAT solid, then you'd be voting for him. Or at least pushing his lynch a bit more.

Actually I’ve been busy pushing with my Top scum read Vibe. Don’t worry … other scum’s time will come.

Magna? They're masons. Who claimed Master Shake and Frylocke masons. On Day 1. I don't think GW would claim mason to save implosion at all. And on the tiny tiny off chance they did, we'll know when there's 5 people left and both of them are still alive...

All of this is meant to show I’m scum again how? That's a good summary of why I say they are presumed Town.

And did I miss where Ghost actually claimed Frylock as opposed to just confirming implosion’s claim being correct? Why couldn’t Carl be a Mason with him?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't have much time right now to address most of the horrible points being made (KCDA's post is particularly bad) but just let me say for the record the following -

Anyone who doesn't think a sudden wagon that materializes suddenly 4 days before lynch when our prior candidate has been at L-1 for significant time isn't scum-driven is either scum or a bad Town player.

There is absolutely at least 1 scum member in the gang of 4 who suddenly hopped on with little to no justification (thats Nacho, Fate, Podium and KCDA).

More later when I don't have family responsabilities.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thank god the insanity is finished.

Untrod you did a great job of mimicing the flavor of the show. Great job there.

Everything else ... not so much. The fact that my invisible votes only showed up in actual vote counts on one or two days was sad. And the elongated and erratic Night schedule killed any interest anyone had in the game, IMO.

For future reference - if you have a game with consistent lack of alignment flips or even delayed flips you SHOULD advertise it specifically.

I'd say good job Town except I really only know for certain that Seacore, Podium and myself were Town.