Mini 1215: Black & White Mafia - Game Over!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok right of the back I am going to ask for a Black / White preference post by everyone.

I don't want you to stated what said Color does but I think it will help the Monochromist decide based on their reads which color to choose.

If both your options happen to be equivalant (aka you have the same role in both Colors) pick one arbitrarily so as to not out possible VTs in this manner.

I prefer White.

Next I'm going to

Monochromist Vote : MoI.

Lastly I'm going to place my regular vote as such

VOTE: Parama - You are always scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You do not vote for lynch during the morning phase; ONLY for the Monochromist. Any votes for lynch will not count and will instead be taken as a vote for the Monochromist selection.

Then

UNVOTE: Parama
VOTE: MoI

@Parama

- I see a distinct lack of Black versus White preference in your posts. Correct this now please!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Seriously I have to support someone else on the playerlist? Grrrr ....

VOTE: Farsiracy

That's the closest we have to someone I would feel comfortable blindly supporting ....

Damn you DH ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

Color Preference Index -

Parama - Black
SleepyKrew -
Junpei -
MagnaofIllusion - White
InflatablePie -
Quilford -
IceGuy - Black
Chronopie -
ace5993 -
Farsiracy -
hohum -
malthusis -
wierdalexv -

[MagnaofIllusion]

Is nobody reading the rules? We're voting for the Monochromist, not a lynch candidate.

We should start by soliciting volunteers for the position. If you're interested, why? Would you follow a town consensus on switching from black to white?

The rules have been in flux ....

I'm interested in the position because I think it is best served in my hands.

I would use the chosen preferences of the players combined with my reads to make the decision

Your post lacks a stated preference - Please correct this!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Color Preference Index -

Parama - Black
SleepyKrew - White
Junpei -
MagnaofIllusion - White
InflatablePie -
Quilford -
IceGuy - Black
Chronopie -
ace5993 -
Farsiracy -
hohum - Black
malthusis -
wierdalexv -

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI clearly wants to be Monochromist and has planned to be from his first post. There is no reason to spam the thread with the list other than to make it clear that you are trying to the most active and seemingly productive player on the field. At least admit that the only reason that you have 2 list posts is for this purpose.

Yes, I do want to be the Monochromist. From my perspective it’s the best play since I know my own alignment and trust my own abililties.

Did you not consider pre-game that you would push for the role yourself? Why not if you didn’t?

My posting is hardly spam. Every time there is a significant change (aka more than 1 response) I have updated the list.

Do you think my assertion that this information is useful for Town is incorrect?

RQS questions.

Fluff removed

...

This is fluff. We already have plenty of game relevant discussion material in the thread already (as is evidenced by your discussion in the first part of the thread where you take ‘offense’ to my posting). Why do you feel the need to ask game irrelevant questions like this?

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@Malth

– Please stop now if you are faking a Post Restriction.

--

Alex gets a minor scum read for answering Junpei’s fluff after correctly identifying them as irrelevant to the game itself when Junpei gives not valid reason for them to be useful to scum-hunting.

--

Color Preference Index -

Parama - Black
SleepyKrew - White
Junpei -
MagnaofIllusion - White
InflatablePie - Black
Quilford -
IceGuy - Black
Chronopie -
ace5993 -
Farsiracy -
hohum - Black
malthusis -
wierdalexv – Black

Once malth and Junpei actually answer the question and Quilford, Chrono, Ace and Fars check in I can get a list finalized.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey MoI, alex's vote for you is scummy, right?

I find him directly scummy for caving to Junpei so readily (which reads like Appeasement - if I answer his pointless questions he might stop hassling me).

Question to you

- is having a Gut reason for something inherently scummy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI those questions serve a purpose. They are not break-the-ice questions, they are not random, they are questions that I would greatly appreciate answered as they do help me scumhunt. I'll answer your question when you answer mine.

Whatever purpose you may think the questions have I am not going to bother to answer them. I have never seen RQS questions with NO game relevance ever do anything other than derail the Town early Day 1. I have grave doubts that you will be able to get one iota of useful, game relevant information out of questions about why I play Mafia or what my favorite real life thing is.

--

MOI, I answered the questions because he said that they helped him scumhunt.

Ok … I find it helps me scum-hunt to know what your favorite flavor of ice-cream is.
Please answer promptly!

--

1. It gives scum PRs an idea of who are more likely to be town PRs in that color.
2. At the beginning of the game it's safe to assume that black and white are equally balanced so it doesn't matter at all what color the Monochromist chooses.

1. I think with the possibility of Vanilla roles skewing that data your fears are quite overblown. It’s not as if each player is saying why they favor that color. Also, in the case of a player with two distinct Power Roles they are more likely to be safe from scum “attacks” if the dominiant color is not their preferred color.
2. Why do you assume that there is possible perfect balance between the factions for each color? Mods have enough trouble balancing set-ups with one set of role much less two.

In any regard the Monochromist can use the information based on their reads to make the best of the situation for Town, IMO. If you disagree that’s your call.

[MagnaofIllusion]

3) It is anti-town to not help out a member of the town in scumhunting by answering 4 simple questions. There is no scum motivation but there is town motivation.

Call it anti-Town if you wish.

I don't know your alignment so the 'helping a Town member' portion of your argument falls flat with me. I find it anti-Town to ask fluff RQS questions. So at this stage we both find each other Anti-Town. I'd rather not discuss it anymore as it is a complete derailment of actual game discussion.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mod - I'll be V/LA til Monday morning for my usual family duties.

I'll be able to get back to the process of hunting scum Monday. Have a good weekend all.

Gotchya

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, large catchup post incoming you have been warned –

--

MOI is so town it hurts

@Farside – please confirm that this is your posting form Post 156.

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Pie, I'm so glad you told us you thought Junpei was scum and then went and did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to try and prevent him from being elected monochromatist.

So calling someone scum and telling people he isn’t a good Monochromist is doing ‘ABSOLUTELY NOTHING’? That’s more or less exactly what you did with Jun – call him Obv-Town and vote him with little in the way of reasoning.

--

MoI is pretty scummy right now imo, more so than alex.

I’d love to see some reasons to go with your vague general statements. That would be tech.

Potential roleblocks/rolecops/etc.? Even for the NK I'd say it's very beneficial for mafia to kill someone who may use a power on them that night.

I’m not quite sure where you are going with this. Your opinion and mine on the benefits of a preferred color claim clearly differ.

Scum are going to kill whatever player they find to be the most dangerous (for whatever reason – suspected Power Role, Dayplay, etc) to them. Power Role hunting is just one factor and you seem to be too heavily weighing said importance, IMO.

@MoI - Ignoring any role related reasons, why do you feel you'd make the best monochromist this game?

Because I feel I’m the most level-headed of all the strong players in the game.

1. There are going to be more people with PR/VT or vice versa than VT/VT.

Oh really? You know this for certain? And no PR/PR combos in your assessment?

--

Yes, I'm terrible at meta and have minimal experience with hohum. That makes me a suboptimal candidate to meta him.

If you are ‘terrible at meta’ as you proclaim why were you even bothering to look at it and not just scum-hunting normally?


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@Jun

– Since you are big on logic and reasoning what do you think of Ace’s not providing it for why I am scummy in post 258?

I mean, we can read Chrono's posts via quote, and SK's is the next most frustrating I'd assume and he says he will do it during white as well. In addition, I fear there may be day-roles, ones from mafia that take place during black. It stands to reason that a day-kill or (what other day-abilities might mafia have during black?) whatever else would most likely take place during black due to it requiring a shift. Although that is getting close to outguessing, and we may have day-abilities for town that take place during black.

This post is one big fat piece of IoA.

1. Jun fears that scum day-roles might only happen in Black so it might be good just to stick with White.
2. Oh wait, maybe Town has day-roles in Black. I’m probably outguessing the Mod.

There's nothing here but a large paragraph that comes to no conclusion.

But when faced with non 1 point logic as to why he wants the job you might wonder how he'd respond.

Can you elaborate on what exactly ‘non 1 point logic’ means? I have no idea what you are trying to say with that string of words.

After re-reading I see the appeasement that MoI was talking about. Although those questions actually do help me so maybe he just saw that, it's hard for me to make an unbiased read on that particular post, as it helped me. However, I see and agree with the overreacted scum-tell that Malthusis was talking about, but once again I think it may be stretching it.

Basically, slight scum read on alex yes, but his RQS answers make me think less so, not the post's timing, the content of the answers. More observing of Alex should give me more insight I'm sure.

More or less complete fence-sitting on Alex.

Sees all sides of the argument and comes to the conclusion that Alex is a slight scum read with very belaboured reasoning. More IoA.

Okay here we go again I suppose.

1) They didn't say "this is a completely random vote"

That’s a pretty ludicrous scum-tell BTW. Town have and will call a random vote random with startling regularity.

--

I'm not really sure I feel comfortable giving it to the person who wants in the most because there's always the possibility of scum motivation.

So you think scum are more likely to active campaign for the role and put themselves in the spotlight?

--

Fine then, since you have nothing to contribute to the game, I'll treat your slot as if you were never in the game.

You may dislike Inflatible Pies ‘minimalist’ playstyle but it hardly qualifies as “not contributing anything” to the game. He’s given scum reads. How do you justify equating what he has done with providing no contribution?

So judging by your psuedo-OMGUS and your sudden buddying with ipie and the fact that you didn't respond to my reasoning on why you're scum, you agree with me that you're scum.

1. So what you are calling OMGUS from Sleepy is only a scum-tell because you think he is scum (as you explained in 204)?
2. Parama has already covered this but your ‘case’ was hardly that. It was just a generic list of post numbers and saying ‘That’s scummy’. Your follow-up was hardly more detailed or compelling.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, I'm just leaving the meta on the table for someone who's good at it. If nobody does it, I'll be sad but it doesn't really matter.

Why did you keep asking for Hohum meta when the game was in the very early stages and meta is pretty useless? Did you have a specific post of Hohum’s you thought might be meta-able?

--

1) MoI that was just me saying my thoughts outloud(well posting them) on inspiration I just had. It isn't something I wanted to do once I really thought about it, but it was something I thought of and figured that it'd get people talking. I said all of this in my post but you cut that part out, from now on please quote my whole post save walls.

I don’t really care what you said your motive was (and that’s why I didn’t quote the whole thing – I save space wherever possible when I feel there is no change to the content in question) – I see nothing Pro-Town or scum-hunting that could come out of that post.

It was a large ball of IoA that served to bolster your word-count but do nothing positive for Town.

That's what I said in my very first post. Notice how I bring up a point that doesn't directly correlate to "clearly wanting to be monochromist" but after using logic we can see how I came to that conclusion.

1 point logic is where if I had said "He self voted, ergo wanted to be monochromist". It is a direct correlation as self voting for monochromist means by definition he wants to be monochromist.

This is another huge ball of nothing. Great … you love to use pointlessly complex language. What was your point in the first place? Did my pushing to be the MC and response to your prodding give you a Town / Scum read?

3) Yes I know I was fence sitting in a way. I do find him scummy a bit in regards to what he's posted I agree there. However given his answers to my questions being of the nature they are I'd think that they wouldn't come from scum. However we'll see if my analysis of him lines up later in the day. It is a simple read that I have which is why I think that I'll know by then.

So I’m seeing a pattern here … you like to be needlessly wordy. All you are saying in this is “I’ll determine whether Alex is scummy by his later play”. Bam … one sentence with no linguistic gymnastics.

4) I always thought it was a scumtell, I dont know how I can argue why though other than it is scum trying to say "hey guys, I'm voting, but it's 100% random so it isn't something I have to commit to or explain in any way".

The RVS stage (while annoying) is built on the premise of votes with no ostensible game-play source (aka posts). The difference between saying “Here’s my RVS vote on Player X” and “Vote Player Z for Lulz” is neglible.

Information can be farmed out of RVS but as you said to Far – you are overthinking it.

--

Because he hardly has. His best post this entire game was explaining why Junpei was scummy with his flip-flopping on White/Black phases. Considering how he's never played like this before and is usually the one who provides the best posts during a mafia game yes I find it bad that he's being incredibly minimalist with his posting.

Aha … the real issue appears – your frustration is meta based. I’ve never played with Pie so I have no baseline to judge from. Does Scum Pie play differently than Town Pie in your experience? Link it up if so.

2. It was pretty more detailed abielt not by much. I pointed out posts why he was scum and then (what I should have done the first time) explained why I found those posts scummy.

So the reasons you suggested Sleepy was scummy were the following –

1. Fluffy and tunnelling interactions with Alex.
2. Not contributing (aka laziness)
3. Waffling (by voting for multiple people for MC)
4. Accusing Hohum of tunnelling incorrectly.

Is this an accurate summary of why you think he is scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

No I'm pretty sure I'm not. If scum suspect a power role the only person who they would kill above the suspected power role is a confirmed power role, especially early in the game.

Look, we can go round and round and I can say you are.

The number of times I’ve been killed N0/N1 as a VT argues with your personal assessment.

And you have yet to show how anyone will be a confirmed Power Role. You speculated but you keep ignoring the inherent smoke-screen that any Pure VTs throw up combined with the fact that certain preferences will be made to circumvent annoying Post Restrictions.

But your actions contradict this. The most substantial thing you did in order to prove this was to immediately ask everyone to essentially vote on what you should do if you were elected.

No, I asked everyone to provide disclosure that would allow the MC to use their own reads to decide what Color they believed is most beneficial to Town. If you don’t see the possible upside I can’t help that. Whatever false conclusion you drew (MoI would just follow Town) shows you have no idea what sort of player I am. Noted.

Did you even read my explanation for this? One out of the 12 is a PR/PR. Puts some perspective on things.

No, I completely skimmed it. I got two lines in and my brain registered “Needless speculation that probably is dead wrong”. I’ll go back and look it over to see if there is anything that isn’t just “Ace foolishly thinks he knows the set-up Day 1 before a flip” involved in the next two or so days.

Usually I'd do a PbP here but I'm not sure what the current stance is on those

and I'm convinced half of this playerlist wouldn't read it anyway.

Regarding the bolded – why do you care what the current ‘stance’ is on PbP if you think it is an effective scum-hunting tool?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Daykill: Pie

Hell yes.

You know Parama after your scumtastic flip out in MetaMafia when Magua dropped a fake Dayvig on you and how you railed about how it was a scum-telll I've very interested to see if this one is real.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Color Preference Index

-

Parama - Black
SleepyKrew - White
Junpei -
MagnaofIllusion - White
InflatablePie - Black
IceGuy - Black
Chronopie - Black
ace5993 -
Farsiracy – White (No explicit declaration other than appearance of ‘I hate my Black PR’)
hohum - Black
malthusis - White
wierdalexv – Black

The Longing I’ve removed from the list since he specifically said he didn’t care (great work BTW there if you are Town ).

Neither Junpei or Ace have given a selection (or I missed it).

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Longing

– you seem to have missed my request to show some Meta support for your position that Inflateable is scum. Please do so soon.

Alex’s vote on Junpei is worth note, pending the eventual knowledge of Junpei’s alignment.

So Ice’s reads from 319 are Hohum and Longing as scum. Where is his vote at that time? Nowhere.

@Ice

– Why are you not voting?

--

It would be easy for scum to play dumb in that situation and say they were town, so IP gets townpoints for not alignment-claiming.

This reads as someone searching for a justificantion for giving someone Town cred … aka scum hunting for a reason to give a Town read.

VOTE: Alex

Between your appeasement of Junpei early, your hop onto Junpei after SK’s post and this I don’t see any reason to keep my vote idle longer.

--

I was scum in that game and I lied a lot. Really now MoI :U

Yeah, I understand that Parama.

Now that the ‘gambit’ is over … can you tell me what you learned (aka what reads you got) out of it?

--

Because if it's dismissed/not read it will have been a waste of my time.

From a Town perspective it is never a waste of time to use a technique that you feel is helpful in finding scum.

People bang on my VC analysis in most games I use it. That doesn’t stop me because I get good results from it.

P-EDIT: Oh snap, good choice Parama, probably not for the reasons you shot him though.

Elaborate on the reasons you saw it as a good shot, fake or no.

--

If you are mad at me being too wordy that is something that I as a player do. I almost always try to explain myself so that there is no misunderstanding in what I'm doing and why, and although it doesn't always work it is an attempt. In a few days I'll have an example for you of how much I've toned that wordiness down if you like, but I don't like just saying "I'll determine from later play if he's mafia/town" because that is waffling without reason, and I have reasoning as to why I'm waffling so I explained it.

I’m not mad at all. I’ve been accused of being Captain Wallpost far too often to want to say you are bad for just having large posts.

I find you scummy for making large posts that don’t actively say anything concerete. There’s a difference. Too many of your posts are IoA type posts where you throw down many words but don’t actually scum-hunt or draw conclusions that can be assessed.

For example – your explanation above about why you are waffling … I don’t care why regardless. If you waffling don’t say “I can see why he’s scum but his responses make me think he’s Town”. That’s 100% useless in helping everyone else get a good read on you. Similarly your circular discussion about changing to Black and possible Day abilities for both sides was an exercise in futility. What conclusion can be drawn from it? None useful that I can see.

I am trying to appease everyone, and I don't see how that is scummy in this case. Read my bolded and you'll see my stance on this is clear. It does what town wants to do day 1. I don't know what town wants to do, no one is giving me any real discussion on it until recently. So my bringing up the subject many times probably made it look like I was trying to be exceedingly cautious when really I just wanted to know if anyone had post restrictions in black that would hurt their scumhunting ability.

At first glance this paragraph wants to make me kill Junpei with fire. He actively asserts he is trying to appease ‘everyone’.

1. He called Alex’s appeasement (which I brought up as scummy) a scum-point earlier. Yet here he is doing the exact same thing (appeasing others) that he admitted was scummy earlier.
2. He’s not factoring in his own opinion on who is scummy into his decisions. There are scum out there who should be inconvienanced at every turn.

Junpei

– care to address the Dissoance I am seeing in your play?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm not saying that he's scum, I'm saying that this gamestyle of his is weird and it makes me cautious. Despite me voicing concern at the beginning (and even then I didn't find him scum just confused), he's proven himself town. I just expect him not to go the usual Parama-esque type route and be completely vague about a lot of stuff (no offence to Parama honestly )

Oh so your “I’m going to ignore IP this game” stance was what then? A passive-aggressive way to get him to change behavior?

You weren’t calling him scum. You seem to be ok with Parama using the style. Why bang IP for something that you seem to think is ok for Parama?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Okay, so I'm going to admit my posting restriction was fake. I figured it would help me sort out how people behaved differently in Black or White, but I don't have the attention span. So I'll just go back to being a fluffy little bunny wabbit.

So now that the Mod has blown up your obv-fake hammer ... what did you think you would accomplish with it?

[MagnaofIllusion]

No harm in a reactiontest.

I direct you to Lost Season 1 where Chesskid did that exact same 'reactiontest'.

And Vezok swooped in behind him to get in his 'post hammer' vote that ended up hammering the Town Cop before he could claim. So saying 'no harm' isn't exactly correct.

[MagnaofIllusion]

In time I'll elaborate, something has happened since that made me reconsider.

Well given that very little actually occured between your 'great shot' post and this post I'll be very interested to see your reasoning and what post made you reconsider.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Playing to win.
Chances are DH won't allow it anyway.

No, it isn't fucking playing to win. It's gaming the system. See WoW Mafia.

I see one more suggestion out of you about it and I WILL lead a lynch on you. Period.

So cut it the fuck out.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Chronopie and Malth need to be posting content much more than they currently are given their post restrictions (which was the reason they were not really contributing) is currently lifted.

--

@Ace

– you seem to be specifically avoiding answering the questions I put to you.

In your next post you need to elaborate on the following –

Elaborate on the reasons you saw it as a good shot, fake or no.

Well given that very little actually occured between your 'great shot' post and this post I'll be very interested to see your reasoning and what post made you reconsider.

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The difference between my type of appeasement and alex's is that I am monochromist, and I have a mechanical ability that determines who can easily talk and give reads. I did factor my reads into the decision. Notice I said that I was worried Farcsicry was going to drag it out. Notice how I said that I really wanted Iceguy's reads as I found it scummy that he was saying nothing but word-wasting "wait till black" posts.

I see you are saying you took your reads into account regarding Fars and Iecguy.

I know where you stand on IceGuy. What was your read on Fars when you made the decision?

Although on the note of my death, when should I claim if at all?

You should claim when you are at L-1 and someone has suggested that they are willing to hammer and want a claim from you. As per site standards.

pedit: thank you Parama, I hit submit before typing awoo and your post saved me haha also SK isn't useless, he will lead town to his scum partners. SK you are not obvtown you are very scummy, and being a fluffy bunny hurts town and so does sitting in a corner. Before you drag this conversation on too, I'm done talking about your worthlessness. Hmm... I see your point Parama.

If Junpei is Mafia this buddying does a great deal to clear Parama.

--

Okay, so I'm going to admit my posting restriction was fake. I figured it would help me sort out how people behaved differently in Black or White, but I don't have the attention span. So I'll just go back to being a fluffy little bunny wabbit.

So you faked a Post Restriction to “sort out how people behaved differently in Black and White”. Elaborate in detail (more than 1 sentence) in how that works and what you were wanting to accomplish by doing so.

--

farside if you're going to yell at me for not answering questions you're wasting time because I have never gone a game without skipping questions directed towards me.

So you specifically play in a scummy manner because … you’re a bad player? I'm not seeing the positive Town impact of playing as you are.

For the record the times I’ve seen you do so you were scum. I’d have to look in Cyclical Experiment to see if you dodged questions there …

@Parama

– Since you have a Super-Town read on Junpei why are you basically sitting on your ass doing nothing to derail what should be a complete fail wagon? Is it because you are scum and don’t care if a Town read dies so you can attack the wagon tomorrow?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI: I'm trying to push a wagon on scum. If I can do more than that please tell me. There's not much to say about Pie because it's blatantly obvious he's scum and he's not even trying to hide it yet everyone seems content to ignore him in favor of lynching the same dude they elected monochromist. I mean make up your minds already you fickle people.

1. Saying "Pie is obv-scum" isn't pushing a wagon. I don't see anything grand explaining why Inflatible is scum. Repeating rhetoric is not pushing a wagon.
2. You note that I didn't want Junpei as MC. Why are you trying to lump me in with those that did?
3. Who among those 'fickle' people do you think are more likely to be theoretical scum Inflatible's partners pushing a bad lynch?

[MagnaofIllusion]

And if he's town?

Then it means nothing other than Junpei had a Town read on Parama. The important portion of the observation was already mentioned.

Longing - Full set of scum-reads ... GO!!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Malth

- I noticed in 429 you didn’t give reads on the following players … why was that?

TheLonging, IceGuy, Chronopie, Parama, Farsiracy, hohum

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I thought by taking notes I'd see differences in behavior, but I'm lazy and stupid.

Now I have to really decide if you bad enough as scum to really think this sort of explanation would fly.

You get bonus scum-points for trying to derail Junpei’s logical course of questioning by labelling it as fluffy.


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Originally I had thought it was a good shot because of the relationships between Pie and you/Junpei, and I was much more willing to lose town-Pie than town-either of you. Specifically, scum-Pie would clear Junpei and town-Pie would make me much less wary of you.

So it was 100% relationship driven? Why would you be ‘more willing to lose Town-Inflatible’ when at the time you had claimed a scum-read on me?

Essentially starting a "color preference list" straight away would let him basically appease the majority of the town as monochromist without actually assuming any of the responsibilities of the role. After seeing his day posts I'm not convinced he would have done this anymore. My only main gripe with MoI at this time is that he doesn't seem to understand/agree with me on why the B/W list is a bad idea, but that's not really a scumtell anyway.[quote[

So your reasons why I was ‘acting scummy’ were

1. I disagreed with you on the B/W list being a Good or Bad idea.
2. An erroneous conclusion about how I would play that you drew from God knows where.

Is that correct?

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If I had to pick three scumreads: Alex, Hohum, and one of {Sleepy | Ace}

And yet you still don’t have a vote on any of your scum-reads. Scumtastic.

[MagnaofIllusion]

At this juncture I have two sets of players I’d accept voting –

1. Players I find actively scummy (in no particular order) – Chronopie, Sleepy, Alex, Ice
2. Players I think are specifically underperforming (and may be doing so purposefully ) – Parama, Hohum

I think my vote should have been with Alex but currently is listed as idle.

Since Sleepy is the most viable alternate wagon to Junpei I’ll place my vote there.

VOTE: Sleepy

[MagnaofIllusion]

Longing

- Top three scum reads - GO!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

1. How much farther do I need to break down my thought process?
2. Why are we still talking about this?

I'm still talking about it because I'm trying to decide if your explanations hold water. I'm unsure still to this point if you are scum who is inventing things on the fly or if you really believe some of the things you are saying.

For example - I can't fathom a Town perspective that says "I'd rather see Town Inflatible who is posting in a manner I dislike die rather than a Scum-read MoI". And although you didn't directly say that it is implicit and underlying to your statments.

[MagnaofIllusion]

HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY I EXPLAINED IT BEST I CAN AND MY ANSWER ISNT CHANGING

Yes, but your explanation doesn't make any sense.

If you were looking to observe the differences in people between White and Black you could have done that WITHOUT faking a Post Restriction.

[MagnaofIllusion]

1. I have not yet stated any sort of a read on Pie, I merely said that I'd be more willing to lose a town-aligned Pie than a town-aligned you or a town-aligned Junpei.

Oh, so your justification is that you have withheld your opinion on Inflatible.

Great – is he a Town Read, a scum read, or a null read for you?

2. I did not think you were scummy enough to warrant any sort of a kill based on just your level of scumminess at the time. Scummy enough to want to investigate more about the monochromist push and the B/W list yes, but at that point I certainly wouldn't have been (and wasn't) pushing for a wagon on you.

So I wasn’t scummy enough to be lynched or shot (but was scummy for reasons that I think are rather crap, IMO) but Inflatible (who you haven’t said was scummy at all) was a good shot because –

1. He’s unproductive.
2. A flip of him would result1 to 2 scum in myself, Junpei, and Inflatible.

The first point is an opinion. I disagree that he is unproductive enough to warrant a shot on someone you don’t have a scum read on (since I have no way to tell what your read is as outlined above).

The second point is wrong, at least from the standpoint of a Town player. What you are attempting is to link / chain deaths in a small group of three players. That you don’t even consider the possibility that all three of us can be Town is telling.

3. There's a huge difference between a vig kill and a lynch, which you neglect to mention in your (already incorrect) statement:

Where have I ever said there wasn’t a difference? You are straw-manning my position with something I never said.

You claim this is basic Vig theory. Basic vig theory is not to shoot players you don’t have a scum read on over players you do.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, when did Chrono become scummy?

I detailed at the end of my 468 (which has a quote screw up that makes a part of my response to Ace a part of his quote.

Chrono has three detailed scum reads. Yet he still isn't voting per the latest Mod vote-counts.

Scummy right exactly there.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mod – I’ll be V/LA for my usual weekend family duties from today at 5pm EST until Monday morning.

No problem

[MagnaofIllusion]

Large catch-up post incoming –

So Malth is a proven Daykiller.

@Malth

– why no reaction to Parama’s faked Daykill in 429, your first content post afterwards? You don’t even mention him as a read there. You must have thought something about his actions regarding his alignment.

Hohum, Peregrin and Longing are so lurking it hurts. One of them seriously needs a bullet in the brainpan overnight if we have a Town Night Vig.

--

VOTE: Ace

It's seemed incredibly unlikely at the time although I may have read the situation wrong. I'm trying to explain an archaic read on events, we're stuck in the past here. Also you aren't reading well or you're twisting my words again. The example I used was hypothetical, an exaggeration. In reality of course a flip can't guarantee anything for sure.

Backtrack express ahoy!

1. You try to dismiss the conversation as ‘archaic’. That’s scummy. These are all stances you have taken THIS GAME DAY and I’m pushing you because I find your reasoning to not be believable.
2. Assetion that I’m twisting (running to the Wikitells) noted.
3. Oh, so your assertion that as daykill on Inflatible would reveal 2 to 3 scum was a hypothetical? Not buying that in the least. You never used the word hypothetical before this post and were defending your ‘reasoning’ why Inflatible was a good shot with that so called ‘hypothetical’. That’s scummy as it wasn’t a hypothetical in the first place but an actual stance you claimed to have. Scumtastic.

I'm not responding to this crap anymore.

Translation – I’m getting my ass handed to me as I can’t come up with a convincing stance that makes sense so I’m going to disengage and hide my head in the sand like an ostrich.

I was going to do this tomorrow but maybe it'll steer the argument into a productive zone. Anyway I'm going to just go against everything I have been saying the whole game and use the preference list because if it exists why not utilize it (I've been debating this for the last two days which is why I was stalling on the Pie thing but I figure scum can do the rolefishing stuff just as well as I can if they're so inclined).:

Look, more backtracking. Before there was no possible Town use to that information. Yet suddenly now that he needs to divert attention he goes to preference spec arguments.

1. You are saying you didn’t see this as a possibility when I first brought it up? When did you have your epiphany that the list could have a use? Give me a specific post.
2. You have never provided your specific preference.

WHAT COLOR IS YOUR CHOICE ACE – GIVE IT IN YOUR NEXT POST

It’s rather scummy that you now see a possible Town motivation to the list and want to use it for analysis but have never given your choice publicly.

More Ace votes people we have a scum dangling on the hook right here!

--

Everyone has answered except for Iceguy now. I forgot about him, interesting enough. The reasons for him being scum don't have to do with what the questions imply anyways so that's probably why I hadn't noticed, he slipped under the radar.

Actually I haven’t answered either. If you were seriously keeping track you should have known this.

So since it is getting late, Malthusis did his daykill (I am fine with SK dying, it's just the kill was a bit sudden, but perhaps that was the point. Also if this is a gambit, then "-.-"), and Farscicry wants to post in a while, I'll change the color. Any objections? Going to do it soon if not.

You killed town cop. Nice.

These comments were made more or less back to back, seperated only by the flip. Note that he was OK with Sleepy being shot but then wants to softly assert Malth is scummy with the undermining later comment. Scummy.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

"You killed town cop. Nice." isn't meant to say he's scummy for shooting town cop. It is just like a punch in the shoulder going "nice, you killed a PR". Like if your brother accidentally dropped a vase on the ground, you'd say "you broke the vase. nice".

But I agree on your points about ace. Backtracking on iPies flip and not giving a color preference while claiming it is pro-town is suspicious.

1. Why input a fluffy comment like that then? You yourself have expressed disdain for fluff. That's the sort of comment that can be pointed back to in later days with comments like "See, I expressed suspicion of Malth here".
2. If you agree with my statment why isn't your vote gravitating to Ace? Do you like your current vote better?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because that isn't my whole post. There is content attached.

This is why I find it scummy. You've said it was fluff. Why include it at all when there was content you could have just posted without it? I can see the scum motivation for including it (as explained above).

Yeah, yeah, inBeforeMoIisTooSeriousAboutMafiaGames ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Return of the white. bleh.

Unvote, Vote: Hohum

Ace isn't as scummy as he looked last time.

EBWOQ

Oh ho ho what have we here ...

Ace isn't as scummy as he looked last time? You voted from him early Saturday morning. He's had exactly one post between your vote and this unvote which was just above you.

Pray-tell what looks so Townie about that post Chrono? I'd love a good explanation.

[MagnaofIllusion]

To put it simply:

I'm a little frustrated about it.

Is a towntell in my book.

Oh, that's possibly the worst explanation I could have expected. He becomes scum in your eyes and then you vote him. He gets a little pressue and folds under it and suddenly he is Town? No, not buying it.

I smell a bad distancing-job right there.

I'll wagon either Chrono or Ace happily today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm not even going to bother trying to read chrono's posts to figure out why he's voting me seemingly out of the blue. I've got a stable Internet connection again so I'll spend tomorrow after work catching up.

Oh look, a broken promise. Hohum either needs to replace out or hang if he can’t provide reasonable activity. I see nothing in the way of content in his current ISO.

--

Bump so we can get started after almost 24 hours of no posting.

awaiting for hohum's thoughts

You know what also qualifies as active lurking? This.

--

aka this is why you should've waited for a claim. you lurk all game then suddenly SHOOT SK OOPS SORRY DIDN'T WAIT FOR CLAIM JUST KILLED THE COP.

So now we have a game-plan to read any Parama Daykill gambit – if he doesn’t ask for a claim before doing it we can consider it a gambit.

Thanks for the tip Parama.

wait
junpei
why did you make a case on pie
then keep your vote on iceguy? <.<

What’s your conclusion here? What does this move say about Junpei and Inflatible’s alignments?

why not malth

Why me? Really.

I’d really like to see more content from you today.

--

I'm annoyed that you keep pushing me for an explanation on my past read on I-Pie when I (at the time) was not willing to give my current read, as I couldn't decide if it was the right thing to do or not. After I had already said I would say something about what changed my read when I was ready to I think it serves no purpose to pressure me into giving half of my read.

I’m annoyed that you think saying “Inflatible is a good vig shot, although not for reasons that you think” with no stated scum-read and then following that up with “I’ve changed my mind” and “I’ll give you reasons later when I feel like it” is acceptable play at all from a Town perspective.

Seriously.

These were my exact words right after my example. This wasn't an afterthought to justify a mistake it was IN THE SAME POST THAT YOU'RE SAYING WAS A DIRECT REPRESENTATION OF MY READS. Examples use hypothetical situations in order to prove a point.

No, use of hypothetical situations prove jack shit … just that you can justify any stance if you put the ‘Hey, it’s a hypothetical circumstance’ cap on.

You can’t defend your postion stating at one point that Inflatible was a good Vig shot by saying “Well, in the case that the Vig of Inflatible would guarantee at least 1 scum in three people then it is a good shot” if you don’t believe at all that situation actually exists.

Real translation - I think you've completely convinced yourself of your logical fallacies in your own head and thus you aren't reading my posts properly so why should I keep defending myself against accusations that have no basis in reality?

You using bullshit theoretical justification for you position is not a logical fallacy on my part.

After seeing your wall of what I believe to be pointless Spec babble I have one question –

Do you believe Malth is Town? I get the feeling that is an underlying assumption you are making but not outright stating.

[MagnaofIllusion]

whatever you sai moi. I'm contributing to the game but I thought bumping would be nice since the last game I was in suffered insufferable amounts of deadness.

If you wanna call it active lurking feel free to.

Yup, it is what I say. I don't really need your premission as I already did it. Another case in point ... this is basically a 'No U' response that is more active lurking fodder.

At this point I have some scum reads I would prefer to see hung (Ace, Chrono) but I will support lynches come deadline on anyone but the following –

Farsiracy
Inflatable
Malth

The rest of you I don’t see enough out of that says “Hey, I’m Town don’t lynch me”

[MagnaofIllusion]

Funnily enough, ace just might be town.

If he is hopefully the notion of not doing so much pointless Set-up / PR speculation as opposed to scum-hunting Day 1 sinks into his skull.

--

Last I checked the game is white. How can we trust your reads if you aren't even paying attention to the thread?

Hmmmm … so you pop in to throw this crap down as opposed to actual reads on content?

Great work again Hohum … you continue to live up to my low, low expectations of you.

--

Thus you can explain to me why my posts have no value.

Well I can confirm all your posts since this whole back and forth with IceGuy have no value. None. You aren’t trying to prove he’s scummy for a scummy attack on you (as far as I can tell) and keep perpututing a circle of “Prove they aren’t valuable” “No you prove they are!”.

--

OUCH
/Prodded. I've been reading (not very carefully), but not posting as I am losing interest in Mafia. I may do this tonight if I can force myself into it.

Ok, so like Hohum you are either useless active lurking Town or active lurking scum. Got it. The 'I have no interest in this game" line I've seen scum use enough that I'd be happy to lynch you on that alone.

It is an assumption but I've outright stated it multiple times. Also I'm still getting the feeling that you aren't actually reading my posts not only because you missed these reads on malth but also because that second quote was before you demanded a color preference.

Pro-Tip Ace – I don’t read every one of your posts whenever I respond to a specific one. You aren’t that interesting a poster. I wanted to nail down your opinion on Malth. That’s why I asked.

--

ALERT
ALERT

REASONING NOT LOCATED

Reasons – they are my Town reads (or not scummy / possible scummy useless active lurkers Reads) or I have a specific reason for not wanting them dead independent of a neutral read. Everyone else is scummy or not producing content to be judged on and can die. Day 1 is often a crapshoot anyway and I don’t have an strong enough scum-reads that anyone else seems willing to run with.

Reasons why they are Town reads? You aren’t getting them. Sorry, not how I roll.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from 4pm EST until Monday morning for my usual family weekend duties.

--

Your significant contribution to this game was to make it nice and easy for scum to rolefish. You've spent the rest of your time arguing with me and making me run around in circles trying to explain to you exactly why I made a few off-hand comments (when the reasoning behind making them in the first place was dead obvious) when you won't even provide any reasons for your town reads. Your other scum read is only via relationship. Stop with your self-righteous crap and start playing, if you would honestly be willing to lynch 8 players you aren't trying hard enough.

Um, bullshit.

If you look at my ISO and don’t say you see I’m making an effort to scum-hunt via questioning players and looking at motives then you are either lying scum or or deluded.

Your lie that my ‘scum-reads’ are only via relationships is noted.

--

This reads a bit like strawmanning. At first glance this is a good point, but I think it's pretty obvious that Malthusis would know it's a gambit, which doesn't show alignment.

Yes, but given Malth should have likely (note this word) know it was faked he probably should have had the same thought I did after it was proven such – what did Parama get from the gambit. You know, the question Parama never bothered to answer.

He calls TheLonging out for active lurking directly above this. >_>

So you are saing I’m actively lurking by making this comment? Ok, let me go back and see what you cropped out of this statemet with my unedited post –

I'm not even going to bother trying to read chrono's posts to figure out why he's voting me seemingly out of the blue. I've got a stable Internet connection again so I'll spend tomorrow after work catching up.

Oh look, a broken promise. Hohum either needs to replace out or hang if he can’t provide reasonable activity. I see nothing in the way of content in his current ISO.

--

Bump so we can get started after almost 24 hours of no posting.

awaiting for hohum's thoughts

You know what also qualifies as active lurking? This.

--

aka this is why you should've waited for a claim. you lurk all game then suddenly SHOOT SK OOPS SORRY DIDN'T WAIT FOR CLAIM JUST KILLED THE COP.

So now we have a game-plan to read any Parama Daykill gambit – if he doesn’t ask for a claim before doing it we can consider it a gambit.

Thanks for the tip Parama.

wait
junpei
why did you make a case on pie
then keep your vote on iceguy? <.<

What’s your conclusion here? What does this move say about Junpei and Inflatible’s alignments?

why not malth

Why me? Really.

I’d really like to see more content from you today.

--

I'm annoyed that you keep pushing me for an explanation on my past read on I-Pie when I (at the time) was not willing to give my current read, as I couldn't decide if it was the right thing to do or not. After I had already said I would say something about what changed my read when I was ready to I think it serves no purpose to pressure me into giving half of my read.

I’m annoyed that you think saying “Inflatible is a good vig shot, although not for reasons that you think” with no stated scum-read and then following that up with “I’ve changed my mind” and “I’ll give you reasons later when I feel like it” is acceptable play at all from a Town perspective.

Seriously.

These were my exact words right after my example. This wasn't an afterthought to justify a mistake it was IN THE SAME POST THAT YOU'RE SAYING WAS A DIRECT REPRESENTATION OF MY READS. Examples use hypothetical situations in order to prove a point.

No, use of hypothetical situations prove jack shit … just that you can justify any stance if you put the ‘Hey, it’s a hypothetical circumstance’ cap on.

You can’t defend your postion stating at one point that Inflatible was a good Vig shot by saying “Well, in the case that the Vig of Inflatible would guarantee at least 1 scum in three people then it is a good shot” if you don’t believe at all that situation actually exists.

Real translation - I think you've completely convinced yourself of your logical fallacies in your own head and thus you aren't reading my posts properly so why should I keep defending myself against accusations that have no basis in reality?


You using bullshit theoretical justification for you position is not a logical fallacy on my part.

After seeing your wall of what I believe to be pointless Spec babble I have one question –

Do you believe Malth is Town? I get the feeling that is an underlying assumption you are making but not outright stating.

So you lifted a single quote from that whole post and then tried to make me look scummy for inconsistently calling out TheLonging for active-lurking when in reality the post you cropped from isn't active lurking in the least? Scumtastic

You’ve won the prize –

UNVOTE: Ace
VOTE: Alex

I'm not the first person who has said they aren't very interested in this game. Funny how you never mentioned this when whoever-it-was said that.

So yeah.

Oh, so I’m not allowed to suspect you for your active lurking / non-contributions?

“Why me?” is it?

[MagnaofIllusion]

sorry I don't think that'll happen :U

Too late … your 678 fulfills the request. Mwhahaahahah

Ace it kinda sounds like you're assuming malth is town here though that may be a stretch... meh.

Yeah, that was my point in asking him.

We are in the Golden Age of scum Daykillers currently on MS since it subverts the long established Meta (Storm of Swords, iPod). Outright saying "Malth is confirmed Town" is sketchy.

--

These reads are pro.
By which I mean - you picked two of my top scumreads and a third player who doesn't exactly make me happy with their posting, then told us not to lynch them.
To which I respond, SCREW YOU MOI. SCREW YOU.

You have an IPie scum read and above say you have a Malth scum read.

What about Far’s posting don’t you like? Seriously … you have a free pick of players whose posting is less contentful and useful for establishing reads than theirs.

I remember them using it in one game. Then the town dayvig didn't cc and the mafia assassin and his team went on to coast to victory. Don't remember what day and I sure am not going to go dig up the game.

And the Town Dayvig just didn’t shoot them?

[MagnaofIllusion]

If it's 'scummy enough to me on this alone', then why didn't you even mention it when somebody else said the exact same thing? If it were true, you would have been pushing their lynch.

Because it is implicit that I would lynch them on the same logic. Not a single person on my short "Will not lynch" list today has used those words.

No comments on your scummy cropping play?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Talk about a game full of dysfunction.

Talk about a player full of uselessness ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

UNVOTE: Alex
VOTE: TheLonging

[MagnaofIllusion]

I want Pie to be able to respond, so I can see him squirm.

So you basically waited until deadline to make an actual case on IPie for what reason again?

--

Claim. Highly paranoid about losing a PR (or two!) right now. Also a substantial amount of people better be on this thread in the next 20 minutes (gogo Deadline Extension please).

So you ask for a claim with approximately 20 minutes to deadline and express a concern about losing a PR?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Good game scum. I'm not surprised at the reveal of the scum team.

This marks the second recent game I've played with partial reveals (Box Office Mafia was the other) and the third I've played with post restrictions (Box Mafia, Upick Mafiascum Camp).

I can say for certain that both help scum in ways that I don't think are often considered in regards to set-up balance.

Thanks for the game Demon. Your flavor text was well written.

@Bunny

- You are very close to making my Mod blacklist with this performance. Dear god that you didn't even blink when Far claimed Black Jailkeeper given that town had already lost a Black Doc and you were a White JK is mindboggling.

Why did none of the surviving Town not step back and question Iceguy as the choice for Nightkill and why Parama and Far/Cons were not targets at all?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI: I doubted that anyone would believe me, as in comparison of my play v.s. Far play I was the obvious choice to lynch. I assumed that all I would do is move the lynch from Alex, to myself, and I had assumed Alex was scum.
But I should have made a clicked with a doctor and 2 jailkeepers, even if they were different night phases.

I'll be frank then Bunnylover ... I think you should really reconsider playing Mafia here on MS.

1. The only person you have to blame for your play looking more scummy than FarCons is yourself. Too busy? Then don't play.
2. You know the one way to be assured that your action fails? To not take it. In this case there is NO downside to trying to get Far lynched. You fail? You get lynched and we get the same exact outcome. You succeed? Perhaps Town has a chance at winning.

Your play where you went along with the lynch being pushed by the person who is basically guanteed scum to you was basically playing against your Wincon.