Starcraft Mafia Mini 1210 (Over)

[Iecerint]

Hey guys ~

I've gotten the final clarifications about my role as of this morning. Now I will read.

I will say upfront that funky rolenames can be town this game. <_<

I am not a miller.

[Iecerint]

I've played both games, but I mainly just play campaign. Playing online is lots of fun, but I find it extremely stressful.

Favorite race: Zerg
Favorite character: Probably Kerrigan, or pre-WoL Mengsk
HotS: <3 <3 <3

I've been on the site for years.

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Vote: Psyche for manufacturing reasons to vote people

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Agree with Espy #14 re: Psyche.

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GBE looks scummy in 21. "I'm sorry. I wanted to move on to mafia. Now I will make a joke vote."

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Not sure what's up with Stels -> kiwiwagon around 34.

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Not sure why Vifam thinks Stels->Morthas is town/town (38).

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Kiwieagle's choice to vote Morthas is mind-blowing. Morthas just wants him to answer questions; how is that "overreacting"? I do not think town would respond in this way; if anything, I think they would find Stels' crisis-creation more troubling.

Vote: kiwieagle

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Rewq's basis for unvoting Morthas does not make much sense. Morthas basically said NUH UH.

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Morthas is town (@ 49).

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GBE is CONTENT-wise correct, but his sidelining up until 51 is scummy.

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ESPEONAGE WTF ARE YOU DOING. I HAD YOU ON MY VERY SMALL MENTAL TOWN LIST. GOD. (VOTING MORTHAS @).

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God I want to kill half of this town (@ kiwi's 64).

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Can't tell if GBE is scum who feels awkward about his scumfriends in 65.

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Rewq and kiwi KILL KILL KILL. Even if they are town KILL KILL KILL.

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Avas votes Morthas for no reason! Yay. (74).

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If rewq is voting Morthas @ 76, he should die. EDIT: He is not.

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I do not know if Vifam is the only town player in this game, or just the only one who is giving a good faith effort.

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Stels can be on the "at least he's trying" list, too. Morthas, too, obviously.

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Oh yeah Psyche is town too I forgot. This one isn't even based on a desperate "plays the game" barometer.

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Kiwi's multipost about thinking rewq is town gives me town reads on Kiwi.

Kiwi, who do you think is scum? Surely not Morthas?

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Kiwi continues to give town-rays in 111. While I disagree with the implicity premise that Vifam is scum with Morthas, I think this post is a natural extension of Kiwi's past thought process + effort that I would not expect from scumKiwi based on what I've seen so far.

Kiwi is town.

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GBE is focused on REALLLY irrelevant things as of 114. Lots of cool stuff is finally happening in the game, and he's whining that an obvtown player won't give meta links. Scummy.

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Psyche is my boyfriend or girlfriend.

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I wish I could've gotten more comprehensive reads from KJ upon replace-in. Don't hugely disagree with either read, though I'm ambivalent on Vifam.

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Lol @ KJ being Karl Popper in 146.

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Why is Wifam ignoring GBE? I don't think his gut has said anything about GBE, but he doesn't mention him... EDIT: He does in an EBWOP (186).

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Fenix is town and probably in the game. Testosterone-y Starcraft fanboys are obsessed with Fenix for no discernable reason. I doubt he'd be demoted to fakeclaim territory.

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Fenix/rewq is obviously town @ 196. Unless DN supplied abilities with fakeclaims. Rewq did not make up that craaaaaaazy ability.

It does mean that the worst outcome is marginal, though.

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AAHHHHHH WAT MASSCLAIM?!?!?!?!?!!?!

I am kinda skeptical of KJ's Selendis claim. I would consider her relatively likely fakeclaim fodder.

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STOP CLAIMING CHRIST.

Oh well, w/e. I guess I'll claim at the end of this.

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Well, I guess I was correct that Kiwi's town. <_<

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The probability that KJ is correct about BROTOSS TOWN is 0%. DeathNote even has a comment in the rules section about like DO NOT OUTGUESS ME, so I'd be willing to bet that there's a discrepancy there.

Could be that someone has a Toss fakeclaim that Newman can find.

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I'm assuming Vifam is claiming "Overlord"...?

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KJ is lord of scum, but then he votes GBE in 239...

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I should make a claim summary...

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KJ is scum (312).

[Iecerint]

TOWN
Kiwi
Morthas
Espe (this one is weaker)
Iecerint
rewq
Psyche
Stels

MMMMMMMM
HelloNewman (leaning scum)
avas
Vifam (leaning town)

SCUM
killerjester
gbevilchaos

[Iecerint]

Rolename: Samir Duran
Race: That's complicated*

Duran is first introduced in BW as a Terran who helps the UED take over the Terran worlds. Then he's revealed to be an Infested double agent for Kerrigan, and he sabotages the UED's plans so that Kerrigan has the upper hand. Then he works for Kerrigan during her campaign, but leaves toward the end and is revealed to secretly be making a Protoss-Zerg hybrid, who are revealed as Big Bad mooks in SC2. He also appears as Dr. Narud (GET IT?) in SC2.

I think the dominant fan theory is that Duran might actually be some kind of force that possesses bodies; this explains why he can have will over Kerrigan even while infested. Whether he works for the Xel'Naga or the Dark Voice is unknown.

So you could consider Duran Terran, Zerg, Xel'Naga, or disembodied spirit. Which of these vibes DN was going for, I'm not sure. He's clearly familiar with both SC and SC2 lore.

[Iecerint]

I think rewq is very likely to flip town. I could just see someone thinking I'LL MAKE STARCRAFT MAFIA AND FENIX OMG BROTOSS FENIX WILL STILL PLAY WHEN DEAD!!! As such, I do not think he should be lynched. However, since he can still use his ability after death, mislynching him isn't such a big deal.

I think GBE and KJ are scummy. I would be happy to see both of them go. I actually think it's relatively likely that I might be recruitable (only based on flavor -- my role PM makes no allusion to this) and KJ organized a massclaim to find players his team can infest. His "lol RACE CLAIM FOR CONFIRMATIONZ" move is much stupider than what I've seen from him elsewhere, so I think this is the simplest explanation for such a move.

I thought about not posting that cuz it could be awkward in a few days, but ima hope for the best. ^^~

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Here are the claims:

Kiwieagle -- Zeratul
killerjester -- Selendis
HellloooNewman -- Artanis (and he is also claimed inno cop+ for the hell of it???)
gbevilchaos -- ???
Morthas -- Gabriel Tosh
Espeonage -- ???
Iecerint kondi2424 -- Samir Duran
avasthearties -- ???
Vifam -- Overlord (and he also claimed watcher, similarly for the hell of it???)
rewq455 -- Fenix
Psyche -- Tychus Findlay
Stels -- Edmund Duke

I dunno how to make tables.

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It is criminal that GBE has no votes.

VOTE: GBE

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Claims basically confirmed Kiwi and rewq as town, though Kiwi was already obvtown before that.

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They also made Vifam feel lonely. He's the only generic-unit in the game right now.

Will be interesting to see what the remainder claim.

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Gosh, it's also criminal that KJ has no votes and that 3 of the most obvtown players in the game are the leading wagons.

TIME TO PLAY SERIOUSLY GUYS~~~.

[Iecerint]

I would like for you to clarify what you think is circular. Sounds made-up.

Off the top of my head (these are all independent things that make me think you're scum):

1. I think the massclaim request was scum-motivated. Based on my past experience with you, I do not see townKJ as being someone who would make a move like that D1. By contrast, I think character-dependent recruitment mechanics could justify this move. So I don't think town would do it, especially if you're the town doing it, and it's easy for me to see why scum would do it.

2. Your pattern of votes (the late Kiwi vote really stood out to me) imply that you care relatively little about evaluating information and not lynching town. Suspicion of Kiwi is so crazy at this point that I can only explain it to myself as misguided distancing instincts or following manageable mislynches (which Kiwi remained, in spite of being obvtown), both of which are scum-linked.

3. Selendis is a relatively likely a priori fakeclaim.

[Iecerint]

However, the next thing I want is the remaining claims. These can modulate the likelihood of certain set-up possibilities, so I'd rather have them on the table now that we already have so near to all of them.

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No, I'm looking at an action, and determining whether scum or town would do it. Then I'm concluding that scum would do it rather than town (or whatever).

1. I have not played a game with townKJ, but I still got a sense of your play from there. Namely, you are a good player. That's very broad -- I'm not making any claims to elaborate knowledge of your meta -- but it's all that's needed to rule out townKJ demanding D1 massclaims IMO.

2. Not just distancing -- distancing OR mislynch-seeking. I think the latter (not the former) is more likely, because I think Kiwi is town. I only listed both possibilities there for the sake of completeness. The point is that suspecting Kiwi should be nigh-unthinkable for a town player who's paying attention; hence, it's a scummy action (whether via distancing or mislynch-seeking).

Upon reflection, your voting Kiwi over GBE after pressuring GBE right as he was leaving actually fits my worldview beautifully, because I think you're both scum, and the timing of your initial pressure and then move elsewhere is glorious in such a case. I was a little wary of my thoughts when I saw your GBE pressure at first, but ye know.

3. You can throw it wherever you want. That does not mean it is invalid. There are 2 independent reasons I suspected Selendis would be an a priori fakeclaim. I will elaborate when the remaining claims come out. Of course, DN stipulates that the set-up will be wonky (Duran as town is already wonky), so I'm open-minded on this point.

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Have you publicized specific reads beyond Vifam and GBE initially being suspicious and Kiwi becoming suspicious later on?

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HIIIIIII

Claim please.

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Sooner is better if you want ++<3 points.

Name onry is OK idc.

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Off-topic: Additional modtalk clarified that I would always have my town wincon even if my wincon were modulated for whatever reason. (My posts about KJ inspired me to ask about whether the game was advertised bastard, etc.)

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Arcturus Mengsk is a villain; his son, Valerian Mengsk, is not, really. He has a can-I-measure-up-to-my-father complex, and he's blind to his father's more questionable character aspects.

I'm the only one who's claimed a villain so far. Well, Duke is kinda villain-y. Until SC2, most of the villains were pretty morally gray, tbh.

Agree that KJ was not misrepping, it was a bad step by Newman. However as someone who also has no clue about flavor, I don't think it's as scummy as it was made out to be.

Could someone re-summarize what this dispute was? I remember it happening, but no details.

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I am rereading this game tonight. Expect a post on some hours.

Nameclaim, please.

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I think there's still one more claim coming?

Overlord stands out because everyone else has a character except for Vifam, who has a unit type, and no one has a Zerg character. So far.

I'm V/LA this weekend; visiting relatives. I should be able to post tonight.

[Iecerint]

Backstory: A race called the Xel'Naga creates progeny races periodically, becomes extinct, and then continues through those progeny races. This continues for a long time. For some reason, one Xel'Naga known only as the "Dark Voice" messes with the process. We don't know what he did, but the result was two progeny races, the Protoss ("proud warrior race in space") and the Zerg ("the Borg, but they're gross/cute insect poop monsters"). He controlled the Zerg at some point and made them search for the Protoss.

On Earth, because of overpopulation, criminals begin to be sent into space rather than be detained on Earth. A group of these ships ultimately form the "Terran Confederacy" (they get American Southern motifs, too) at a location far from Earth and start life anew.

Then the main story starts. The original game is divided into 6 chapters, and SC2 is about as long as one of those chapters so far:

Chapter 1: Frustrated by their problems finding the Protoss homeworld, the Zerg decide to infest another race with psionic (mind-reading, telekinesis, etc) abilities so that they can find them better. They decide on the Terrans (prison colony humans), who have begun to show evidence of psionic evolution. The Terran Confederacy captures some Zerg creatures and experiments with using them as weapons of war. Unfortunately, they are unable to contain their experiments, and many outlying Confederacy planets are destroyed. The player character, Raynor, and Arcturus Mengsk ultimately band together to fight the Confederacy because of their shady nature, alongside Kerrigan, a Ghost (psionic human) whom Mengsk saved from a secret Confederacy training facility. Ultimately, Mengsk uses phlebotinum to use the Zerg against the Confederacy, and he abandons Kerrigan to the Zerg. Raynor gets mad and leaves. Mengsk founds the Terran Dominion and makes himself Emperor. General Duke had been a Confederate general who joins Mengsk's cabinet.

Chapter 2: Instead of killing Kerrigan, the Zerg Overmind (remember, ZergBorg) turns Kerrigan into a Human-Zerg hybrid, and she's really strong and stuff. Two Protoss -- Tassadar and Zeratul -- find a way to permanently kill Cerebrates, which are like the Overmind's sub-minds. (The player character here is one such Cerebrate.) Kerrigan kills lots of Dark Templars, and the Overmind finds the Protoss homeworld and infests it. Yay.

Chapter 3: Lots of Protoss -- Tassadar, Zeratul, Fenix, Artanis, Aldaris -- briefly overcome some fantastic racism against the "dark templar" (Zeratul) and kill the Overmind. Raynor shows up and helps, too.

Chapter 4: Even though the Overmind was destroyed, the Zerg are still everywhere. Our heroes escape to the Dark Templar homeworld. There, Kerrigan approaches them. She explains that they freed her from the Overmind, and she asks their help to get control of the Swarm (i.e. the various Zerg in the galaxy) from the other Cerebrates. In time, existing Cerebrates could grow into a new Overmind. The Protoss heroes, including new player character Selendis, agree. This is eventually framed as Kerrigan "using" our heroes to take out her competition, though I mean YMMV on his villainous this really is. (I <3 Kerrigan.)

Chapter 5: The folks from Earth get nervous about what's going on at their prison colony, so they send an Earth force led by people with Russian accents to check things out. They meet a man named Samir Duran, who helps them fight the Terran Dominion while subtley sabotaging their ability to fight the Zerg. He is ultimately revealed to be an Infested Terran in league with Kerrigan. Due to some Earth hero heroics, the Earthlings end up with control of a new Overmind such that the Zerg don't win outright, and Kerrigan freaks out.

Chapter 6: Kerrigan gets the Protoss and Raynor and Dominion to help out against the Earthlings. They don't really have a choice, so they help her. Just when they get some momentum, she strikes out and kills Fenix (for the second time) and General Duke because she knows her new allies don't trust her and she can't let the conflict end with their power too great. Raynor and Mengsk are mad. She is also revealed to have manipulated the Dark Templar queen Raszagal, so Zeratul is pissed, too. It doesn't matter, though, and she destroys allied armies of Raynor, Mengsk, Artanis, and the Earth folk in the climactic battle. Then she just kinda rests on her laurels. Duran disappears near at the end.

Chapter 7 (SC2): A man named Tychus Findlay is released from prison by Arcturus Mengsk and told to watch Raynor. He gets Raynor to collect mysterious phlebotinum, which are ultimately revealed to be of Xel'Naga origin. Valerian Mengsk ultimately reveals that he's pulling the strings, and says his goal is to de-Zerg-ify Kerrigan. (The phlebotinum destroys all Zerg DNA within a given radius.) Our heroes do that, and then Kerrigan is better. It's revealed that Tychus was also sent to kill Kerrigan rather than let her be freed, though, so Raynor kills Tychus because his anger at Kerrigan is all retconned away and they are in love and stuff. A subplot has Raynor helping Gabriel Tosh either break some crazy Ghost-types (called "Spectres") from a secret prison or destroying his ability to make more crazy Ghosts, depending upon player actions. Tosh is either loyal to Raynor or tries to kill him depending upon player actions, but the former is the canon pathway based on the upcoming expansion.

I've tried to work everyone's claimed characters into that, so it should give an idea of who everyone is.

[Iecerint]

Oh, I forgot.

An "overlord" is a unit the Zerg can build to get food. They are not important to the overall story; rather, they are units that comes into play in the actual playing of the game. They also act as transports and can see stealth units.

Waiting to hear the final claim, I think.

[Iecerint]

The thing with Vifam's claim is that it would be a cruel fakeclaim. If Vifam is scum, scum either lack fakeclaims (I doubt it), or he made it up himself for some reason (i.e. scum were given a scummy fakeclaims, and someone on the scumteam told him to come up with something else).

I think it may be Avas's slot? The replacements have me all mixed up.

I still think GBE's slot (Brosius?) and KJ are the most likely scum, though it's due to GBE more than Brosius in the former case.

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I was thinking in part that Selendis=KJ would be the obvious Kerrigan fakeclaim.

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Kiwieagle -- Zeratul
killerjester -- Selendis
HellloooNewman -- Artanis (and he is also claimed inno cop+ for the hell of it???)
GBE=Scott Brosius -- Valerian Mengsk
Morthas -- Gabriel Tosh

Espeonage -- ???

Iecerint kondi2424 -- Samir Duran
scooby -- Raynor
Vifam -- Overlord (and he also claimed watcher, similarly for the hell of it???)
rewq455 -- Fenix
Psyche -- Tychus Findlay
Stels -- Edmund Duke

Espy has not claimed.

I agree with Morthas about the tone of scooby's attack on Vifam.

[Iecerint]

Matt Horner is Raynor's bland sidekick in Starcraft II. He doesn't like Mengsk very much for reasons the player doesn't really know. He's kind of a crap character tbh. The main reason to like him are the homoerotic undertones between him and Raynor, but they mess that up when Raynor magically forgets that he wants to kill Kerrigan for ruining his bromance with Fenix.

/character-summary

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I'm totally bummed that Ariel Hanson didn't make the cut, if we're going to use boring SC2 characters. I hope she's scum with Kerrigan. Maybe with Nova, too. That, or DN just hates women.

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Oh, neat.

Arcturus Mengsk is Valerian's father and the Emperor of the humans. He was portrayed with shades of grey in the original game, but became a boring Lawful Evil authority figure in the sequel.

GBE=SB is scum and/or Arcturus is scum in the game.

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I have to admit that I hesitate on Vifam/Kerrigan partially cuz I wanna see if she can recruit me and give me simultaneous town and scum wincons. ^^

And there's KJScumenderrigan. Oh well.

I can reveal another piece of modtalk at this point. When I asked the Mod if the game had been advertised bastard, he specified that the only kinda bastard-y role was my own Duran role on the grounds that [REDACTED]. This weakly implies that giving someone only the Overlord name ala Vifam's claim is not very likely, since that would also appear to be a bastard-y move. However, this depends on what the Mod considers bastard-y.

He did NOT specify that my role was the only bastard-y aspect of the game -- only that insofar as roles were a bastard element of the game, that bastard element was limited to my own role.

Maybe he's Kerrigan and he wasn't given a fakeclaim, or his fakeclaim was the human version of Kerrigan and he was afraid to claim it.

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What made you change your mind about Kiwi?

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Morthas, what do you think about my modtalk allusion in 414?

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Nope, I have not claimed traitor at any point. So I dunno what you're talking about there.

The first bold says that the only bastard role is mine. The second bold clarifies that there may be other bastard parts of the set-up, though those aspects are not roles. You seem to have gathered my point, which is that it would be bastardly to give an inconsistent rolename to Vifam, even if you frame it as a question.

I do not think it best to elaborate upon my role.

EDIT: Are you just using flavor to justify my being a traitor...? I'm quite aware of my character's role and the flavor in general, as my posts demonstrate, and I would've come up with something better if I were Duranscum. Also, there's clearly either fakeclaims, or the scum are unusual roles, so basing reads on flavor on its own is not likely to lead to good outcomes.

[Iecerint]

I said that purely because of the flavor allusion + it's mod-confirmed that I will always have my town wincon regardless of any wincon modulation that may or may not happen.

He has also implied that more than one character is in a position to modulate my wincon (and maybe others' wincons, too -- not sure).

[Iecerint]

He did not allude specifically to cults, no.

Basically, aware of my character's flavor as someone whose alignment is simultaneously basically unknown and all over the place (but decidedly scum-leaning), I decided to try asking DN whether my Town alignment was confirmed for the entire game or if it could be changed, since some Mods feel strongly about totally changing alignments and I thought I might be able to get confirmation on this, which would affect how I'd play. He clarified that I would always have my town wincon, even if my wincon were to change.

I followed-up by asking specific questions about possible changes that I don't feel comfortable elucidating, and his explanation implied more than one hypothetical wincon-modulator ("modulate" because I'd still have a Town wincon) might be in the game.

Emboldened by this, I asked further questions that led to the what-is-bastard type modtalk.

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Regarding his play, I do not really know the case. I think people perceived that his defenses of certain players was unnatural IIRC.

From my PoV, modtalk implies that only one character having a out-of-paradigm rolename is relatively likely to be a lie, so that's why I'm leaning to Vifam...

[Iecerint]

The suspicion on Vifam isn't that she's an Overlord ergo scum. It's that she's not comfortable with her fakeclaim and claimed something else. The main reason I feel good about this is my modtalk, which suggests there are no further out-and-out bastard roles.

The flipside is if DN doesn't consider the lone non-character role to be bastard, and that going outside of a fakeclaim is pretty rare, I think.

Espy I could see as scum.

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I've played SC Broodwar but everyone on ICCUP said I sucked at it so I figure I might as well drop it. :/

1. I liked Terrans
2. Goliath
3. What is this?

In terms of Vifam picking a random alternate fakeclaim, though, this information makes it harder to interpret why she'd pick that...

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I think there was some back-and-forth with KJ before she claimed, but all that shows is that she's definitely not toss IIRC.

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To make it clear what Vifam claimed (since you dunno Starcraft, apparently), it would be like if this were a WW2 game and the roles were like this:

Iec: Hitler
DH: Stalin
kiwi: FDR
Morthas: Hirohito
...
[as such for everyone]
...
Vifam: Spy plane, Watcher

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DemonHybrid, there are DEFINITELY some fakeclaims in this set-up.

This game MUST have Kerrigan. She's the most important character in the franchise, and one of the most popular gaming villains of all time.

It's POSSIBLE that Kerrigan is some kind of 3rd party role and only the 3rd party has fakeclaims (and then the scum could be like Raynor and Matt and Tosh or whatever; there are lots of possibilities), but Kerrigan is DEFINITELY here.

EDIT: And I forgot about Brosius's claim that Arcturus is 100% confirmed to be here and unclaimed, too (unless Brosius is lying scum).

So to believe [no fakeclaims], you have to believe that a) Brosius is lying AND b) Kerrigan is not there.

[Iecerint]

Request: Extension

More than one day if possible, but we need the one day the rules specify we can request at the very least.

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Fakeclaims are pretty normative in theme games on this site. It would be unusual if there were not fakeclaims. That is why I'm presuming the former.

That said, come to think of it, the original Greek Mythology, another DN game I played, did not give the scum fakeclaims (AND the scum were scummy rolenames). So that's a point.

That said, apart from me and maybe Stels/DH, no one claimed a villain AND Arcturus and Kerrigan are absent AND there were no counterclaims, so I'm impressed with the random-mass-claiming if that's what happened...

You are correct that there is no conclusive evidence of which universe we're in (former v latter).

I think DH's point about "Overload" is valid, much as I hate to admit it. It does speak to something being put in a PM, whether as a real role or fakeclaim. If it were neither, she's have looked something up right then and been less likely to mess up (unless she did this intentionally, but that's crazyworld).

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Tell me, why would Raynor want to lynch an overlord?

This is a legitimate question. It does not make sense that this sort of set-up spec would occur to just-a-unit Vifam.

I acknowledge that Overlord is bizarre from multiple angles, yes.

DH, you've got Brosius's claim wrong. Brosius's PM says that Arcturus (his rolename's father of whom he is naively worshipful in flavor) is in the game. He wanted until everyone had claimed before claiming that information. The fact that no one claimed Arcturus is what makes Arcturus fakeclaim-hidden scum.

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As players who Raynor can't vote for go, Overlord doesn't make much sense. Kerrigan makes lots of sense. If you are Kerrigan who didn't claim Kerrigan because she's a villain, that would make sense.

Another possibility is that there's a scum ability that's responsible for it.

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I'm not seeing why there can't be a unit as a real claim, though.

It's possible. The reason why I don't think it's very likely is that the Mod told me that my role was the only bastard role. I think giving one poor sap a unit role is a bastard move. Whether this violates the Mod's claim or whatever is a separate question (e.g. maybe the role itself isn't bastard because it's straightforward and transparent and the context being bastard doesn't violate only-one-role-is-bastard claims, etc).

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I'll vote Espy with you. I'm not voting anyone at present.

Vote: Espeonage

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Also no that is not what I am saying. I am saying that it's obviously a case of scum looking for a lynch that will stick[...]

This does not make sense. Vifam was sticking fine; unless you're saying that Vifam is scum (which you don't appear to feel too strongly about), there'd be no reason for scum to massively deflect to you at the 11th hour.

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wut.

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My role PM changed last night, but not with regard to alignment. Since the Mod hinted at alignment-modulators existing in the game, this means someone else may've been modulated.

The Mod stipulated that I would always have my town wincon regardless of modulations, so whoever was modulated may be able to safely claim as much. It would give us a better idea of how the wincon-modulation mechanic works. Of course, this depends on the modulation.

I like how the playerlist is gradually becoming Greek Mythology Part 2.

I agree that there's Scooby-Vifam weirdness. DH thinks Vifam is the towniest town evar, though. Maybe he'll weigh-in on it again in a bit. Sheeping him until an error doesn't sound like a terrible idea, either.

[Iecerint]

Why would you claim that now...?

And why would you clarify that given that you claimed it...?

<_<

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I don't have any role-related information about modulations. My information was based only on modtalk. I engaged in modtalk only because of my personal knowledge of my character's flavor, and I got lucky. I don't believe I've held any of the modtalk back, so I don't have any secret extra facts I'm matching up DH's claim with, if that's what he's going for.

I do think DH's roleclaim sounds like it could plausibly fit with the universe implied by the modtalk.

To be clear, I didn't get an alternate wincon last night, either. I dun wanna elaborate beyond that re: SD's question.

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Worth noting that Vifam could have been alternascum, as Raynor -> cannot vote -> Kerrigan makes a lot of sense, and Kerrigan+Arcturus scumteam makes very little sense, unless it's a Starcraft Episode 6-type alliance-type scumteam, but then Raynor would be scum with Kerrigan, too, and he wouldn't implicate her by saying he couldn't vote the Overlord-claimer.

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I targeted you. I can't believe I forgot to mention that.

Meanie.

I want moar wincons plz @ all.

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DH replaced Stels and is Duke, right?

DH, have you fullclaimed? If so, I would appreciate flavors.

[Iecerint]

Fenix is not a plausible scum role. Fenix basically has no character flaws. It goes against even the Mod's point about making "not-so-evil" characters into scum; Fenix is beyond that. The fact that Mengsk flipped as a "leader" (or at least the thread title was changed to "a leader falls" or something IIRC) leads me to believe that the scums may not be totally crazy roles, too. I also don't know of another rolename to which that ability can easily be mapped to.

The only time Mengsk and Fenix were allied was during the Brood War Episode VI scum scenario I mentioned before, but they never really interacted. ShadowDancer is correct that such a set-up would imply UED town, but it may be that the Mod just wanted an excuse to make certain characters scum. Still, ye, this is remote (which is my point).

I agree that rewq is very scummy outside of being Fenix.

Morthas I didn't think was scummy, but I am on the verge of sheeping and calling it good.

I think your Vifam argument is valid (no scum motivation for XYZ), but his claim itself makes me cross.

I don't think my rolechange had much to do with what you intimate, but I suppose it's plausible that someone hit me with change+wincon-mod and you blocked the wincon-mod part. ^^~

[Iecerint]

Iecerint, did you forget about fakeclaims? I'm not doubting the ability, however.

I also don't know of another rolename to which that ability can easily be mapped.

This is my attempt to address this issue. Fenix dies once and then lives again in a Dragoon (little mechanical things that they hook-up dead Protoss to so that they can keep warrior-ing). While technically all Protoss do this, Fenix is the only character for whom this is a plot point.

[Iecerint]

I'll look into Morthas again soon.

[Iecerint]

It's worth noting that Duran being town is also crazy-world, so that kind of flavor analysis may also be bunk BUT ye.

I don't think it's only scum who can be recruited, because the Mod stipulated that my wincon can be modulated.

[Iecerint]

"Overlord" was not a scum fakeclaim. 0% chance. For it to be a fakeclaim, at least one town role would have to match it. Overlord would have to be made-up for whatever reason.

For example, if his role was Kerrigan, and his safeclaim was pre-Zerg Kerrigan, and he didn't feel comfortable with that, that might have justified making something up. If he only plays the game competitively and doesn't follow the story much, he might legitimately have chosen something like "Overlord -- Watcher."

Scooby, did anything change about your voting restrictions today? What happens if you vote for Vifam?

[Iecerint]

Vifams claim of watcher may have been why I didn't die.

This is a good point.

[Iecerint]

(However, if Vifam is legitimately a town Overlord, that doesn't solve the mystery. It just converts it into a mystery about Scooby's role.)

[Iecerint]

(Then again, the presence of a hypo-doc may have also been why you didn't die, etc.)

If you think Vifam is 100% town, it would appear that Scooby would be a high-yield follow-up target. I am personally hesitant because I am not as certain about Vifam being town, but I'm surprised you'd do so...

Did Vifam ever get weirded-out by Scooby not being able to vote him?

[Iecerint]

What's a hypo-doc?
Anyway, a perfectly normal doc and countless other roles are absolutely perfect explanations for Demon still being alive.

I meant, scum speculation at a possible doc might be sufficient. Not anything different from your follow-up.

[Iecerint]

There's no 100% evidence I was targeted last night AFAIK. My role may have changed for a different reason. It's difficult to say.

I don't think it's very likely that mafia are the ones who can modulate people. Telling me the scumteam would make my town wincon too easy, and making me a traitor on top of making me town, while nice, would be kinda silly.

My thought yesterday was that Arcturus's team was Mafia and Kerrigan was a 3rd party role who could wincon-mod certain/limited players into helping her. This would be flavor-consistent and winconmod would be another iteration of "ways to help the 3rd party." But who knows.

[Iecerint]

Yes. Otherwise, I would have already explained it.

I'm adding details where people make problematic inferences that might lead down mistaken garden paths.

[Iecerint]

Who does Morthas think is scum?

[Iecerint]

I can only interpret Morthas's reticence as a hope that people will forget about him in light of the Scooby/Vifam situation...

That doesn't mean there ISN'T such a situation, but I mean. /sheep

VOTE: Morthas

[Iecerint]

My town wincon will not be changed. This has been promised to me. However, my wincon may still change. I do not have information on how. Logically, this means that it is possible that I could get either an alternate wincon or an additional requirement for winning. Since I thought talking about a wincon "change" was misleading, since what's there won't change, I decided to call it a "modulation."

This information is not in my role PM; I know it because I personally asked the Mod (which I did because Duran is kinda sinister). I would assume that this information also may apply to other roles and may be confirmed by asking the Mod independently.

[Iecerint]

I've sent the Mod a total of 13 PMs since replacing-in, so I've asked him lots of things. I am not going to get too specific for obvious reasons. The question that started it involved whether the game was advertised bastard IIRC.

P-edit yayyy

[Iecerint]

Some Mods have strong feelings about certain kinds of roles and elect not to use them. My guess is that the information the Mod gave me was given because it reflects those general feelings. However, the statements were framed as being true of this game in particular. He also said that my role was the bastard element of the game insofar as roles are concerned and alluded to specific aspects of my role as examples. I'm pretty comfortable taking his statements at face value.

I am not comfortable posting about modtalk in every single post, so please refer to my earlier posts if you want more clarification. I have already put this content into the game earlier.

In addition to direct mod confirmation from me, DH has claimed a recruitment-stopper role. He targeted me last night.

Scooby, you never answered my question about what happens if you DO vote Vifam.

[Iecerint]

You are being a thread summarizer and police officer. Who do you think is the actual scum? I see allusions to Rewq, Scott, DH, Vifam, and Scooby.

Rewq is different from Espe because his ability claim is very linked to his character.

[Iecerint]

Second, since there was some doubt around the other power similar to mine, I felt it was more likely true than not given I had a similar power.

You're referring to Scooby not being able to vote Vifam? That is, to Raynor not being able to vote an Overlord?

I do not understand how the validity of your argument addresses the part of that equation that bothers people...

Morthas is 2TOWN4TOWNing you, though, lol.

[Iecerint]

Vifam = Kerrigan = Has-A-Recruit-Mechanic is very plausible. I suspect it's limited to humans, since I don't believe Protoss have ever been Infested. (Hybrids have been made, but that's different from Infestation.) This would also explain why the set-up is heavy on Protoss, light on humans, and Vifam is the only Zerg.

@ Scooby, the reason it is suspicious is that there is no reason for Raynor (scooby's claimed character) to not be able to target an Overlord. Raynor LOVES killing Zerg -- he has a hydralisk skull on his wall in SC2. Overlords are Zerg creatures much like any other. On the other hand, it makes LOTS of sense for Raynor not to be able to kill/vote Kerrigan; a major driving force in the narrative of SC2 (albeit an annoying, retconned-in one) involves Raynor wanting to save/de-Zerg Kerrigan rather than kill her because of TWU WUV.

While there may have been SOME people who are suspicious because they think scooby is just making it up, the main complaint has been that the claims imply Vifam!=Overlord and Vifam~ Kerrigan=Scum/3rd party.

[Iecerint]

Actually, come to think of it. given the Vifam=Kerrigan PoV and the above spec, the obvious N1 move for Vifam would be to infest DemonHybrid. DemonHybrid already had town feelings about Vifam and was townTown.

This would also contextualize DemonHybrid(=Edmund Duke, traitor extraordinaire)'s cannot-be-recruited claim. Before, it sounded so out-there that it appeared incontrovertibly to be a trueclaim. This version of events perfectly contextualizes things AND explains why DH-doesn't-know-flavor would claim something like that about Duke.

On the other hand, I don't really mind Vifam recruiting folk, because I know I'm recruitable, my Town wincon is fullproof, and Vifam can get to me 100% given that DemonHybrid is also recruited. And if he's not, then Vifam probably isn't scum.

So I'm basically OK with letting DH and Vifam do their thing. But I will be cross if I'm not let into the swarm soon.

[Iecerint]

Iecerint, since you say you keep your town win condition, please help us lynch Vifam.

You actually have it backward. The fact that I keep my town win condition (and I assume others do, too) means that lynching Vifam is not as high-priority as it would otherwise be. I wish she'd just go ahead and claim Kerrigan so that we can clear up some of the ambiguity involving scooby, though.

Are you insinuating that I should "prove" that I haven't been recruited by Vifam? That is unnecessary; you already know that 100% because DH claimed to have prevented me from being recruited last night, so either DH was recruited (and I wasn't), or he prevented me from being recruited.

Morthas is pretty scummy, and there are legitimate connections to Espe that DH highlighted.

The final piece of the puzzle that makes VifamKerrigan not the automatic lynch is that Kerrigan is probably not scum with Mengsk (ergo, some sort of 3rd party). It's true that they're allied when the story starts and periodically thereafter, but Kerrigan hates Mengsk tons. She makes more sense as a 3rd party role given that Mengsk is scum.

[Iecerint]

Scott Brosius -- Valerian Mengsk
Morthas -- Gabriel Tosh
Iecerint -- Samir Duran
Scooby -- Raynor
ShadowDancer -- Tychus Findlay
DemonHybrid -- Edmund Duke

These are the non-toss claims. There are actually more humans than I remembered, so that affects one earlier point I made...I'd thought the set-up was mostly toss, probably because of KJ's spec yesterday.

[Iecerint]

If we are talking about someone that very likely recruits people then I think people with town PMs should vote a cult recruiter rather than someone who could be scum.

But the hypo-cult recruiter apparently doesn't mess with town wincons (not Duran's, at least), so the hypo-cult recruiter's anti-scum elements are probably more significant than their anti-town elements.

I wish Vifam would just claim it outright and remove a lot of the spec for us.

[Iecerint]

@Iec: The 100% fullproof townwincon thing, does it apply to everyone or only to you?

I only asked questions about my own role, so I only know for certain that it applies to me.

My role PM doesn't have this information, though; it's all from Modtalk. So either I have a hidden ability that the Mod basically told me about when I asked, or it applies to everyone.

We can solve matters for sure by having anyone who isn't me ask the Mod.

[Iecerint]

Actually, come to think of it. given the Vifam=Kerrigan PoV and the above spec, the obvious N1 move for Vifam would be to infest DemonHybrid. DemonHybrid already had town feelings about Vifam and was townTown.

This would also contextualize DemonHybrid(=Edmund Duke, traitor extraordinaire)'s cannot-be-recruited claim. Before, it sounded so out-there that it appeared incontrovertibly to be a trueclaim. This version of events perfectly contextualizes things AND explains why DH-doesn't-know-flavor would claim something like that about Duke.
(

Didn't you claim you couldn't be recruited?

No, I never made that claim.

I claimed that my town wincon cannot be taken away. I learned this from the Mod. It's probably true of everyone, and you can ask the Mod yourself and get confirmation given as much.

For example, I may get extra wincons, or alternate wincons.

[Iecerint]

My point is that you could be making making such a claim in light of your first-hand knowledge that recruitment exists in the game. Another benefit is that it jived with claims I'd made, so it would ingratiate you to me. The only problem with such a move is that it doesn't fit with Edmund Duke, which in turn fits with you not knowing the flavor.

It's either that universe, or the one where Duke has a bizarre role.

[Iecerint]

I wish you guys would just claim cult and make my life easier.

[Iecerint]

Ooba needs to make substantive posts.

Rewq, what do you think we should do? Weigh in.

[Iecerint]

It's mod-confirmed to me that there are wincon-modulators of some sort in the game.

[Iecerint]

Also, you already knew that, because of your "can't recruit him" doctor-y ability.

[Iecerint]

But Kerrigan IS in the game, and she is (probably) NOT allied with Mengsk.

[Iecerint]

The Morthas wagon is actually bigger than the Vifam wagon right now IIRC. I'm voting Morthas.

I MEAN, THERE IS A GODDAMN REASON WHY I WASN'T KILLED, AND IT IS BECAUSE EITHER THEY FEARED A WATCHER OR WANTED TO RECRUIT ME. THIS IS MAFIA THAT I'M TALKING ABOUT

Vifam being 3rd party Kerrigan (the ONLY alignment Kerrigan COULD be since she's 100% IN the game (ergo, not town, as no one claimed her) and probably NOT with Arcturus Mengsk) solves all of these issues. Scum assumes that Vifam is a watcher, so they don't kill you.

"IT IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE."

The only thing that makes me wanna join the Vifam wagon is that she hasn't claimed Kerrigan yet. Failing to claim Kerrigan makes me feel like she might be the normal sort of scum.

[Iecerint]

Iecerint, with Demonhybrid unvoting Morthas, Vifam is the new top wagon, so yeah you are wrong.

The basis of that is that the #1 Morthas wagon advocate (i.e. the one complaining about his wagon's lack of popularity) switched votes.

[Iecerint]

It should be a pretty fun game to read...lots of stuff has happened...

[Iecerint]

After the first few pages, at least.

[Iecerint]

Iec, you still haven't provided a valid reason as to why you aren't voting Vifam despite thinking she is scum.

Yes, I have. I suspect she's more anti-scum than anti-town given 3rd party affiliation due to my Modtalk facts. Though, to be fair, as the chance that she's 3rd party decreases, the validity of this is likewise decreasing.

[Iecerint]

Furco, I love you a lot.

[Iecerint]

Scooby claimed Raynor IIRC, not Brosius. Unless you're doing as-you-read commentary...

[Iecerint]

FURCO I THINK YOU SHOULD DO IT.

DO IT FOR ME. <3

[Iecerint]

/drunkpost

[Iecerint]

I live where you live.

[Iecerint]

Does this mean we can consummate?

[Iecerint]

OOBA AND FURCO.

READ THE GODDAM THREAD.

[Iecerint]

Can I please get a solid reason why am I being targeted btw?

IIRC, it has to do with interactions with Espe, namely. DH has a wallpost early D2.

[Iecerint]

Morthas still continues to be absolutely obvious. And I will laugh at all of you when Vifam flips town.

ooba just made me headdesk pretty hard though

GBE was a scumlord, though.

[Iecerint]

-- Game was never advertised as bastard - only flavor part of it has the moniker attached to it - any game with cult would have been termed as bastard as a whole

1. My wincon is mod-confirmed (to me) modifiable.
2. The Mod implied that more than one role might be capable of said modification.

Thus your implicit thesis that wincon-modding roles require more elaborate bastard advertisements must be incorrect.

Happy with the rest of your post.

[Iecerint]

(Or I'm lying about my Modtalk, but you report relatively strong town read on me, etc.)

[Iecerint]

Kiwi still thinks there's a cult haha

1. My wincon is mod-confirmed (to me) modifiable.
2. The Mod implied that more than one role might be capable of said modification.

Thus your implicit thesis that wincon-modding roles require more elaborate bastard advertisements must be incorrect.

[Iecerint]

Did everyone forget about the part where I said there's a high chance that it's just mafia being able to select another partner on their own?!

But Kerrigan is probably in the game, and Kerrigan probably isn't with Mengsk, and Kerrigan probably isn't town, and Kerrigan makes flavorsense as a wincon-changer.

Also, this ignores the Mod's implication (to me) that more than one role may be able to do this.

[Iecerint]

That is flavor-reasonable, but I didn't get any wincon-modding last night.

I keep my town wincon, anyway, so it wouldn't be the end of the world to kill her in such an event.

I'll admit that part of the reason I don't want to lynch her is that I'm a big Kerrigan fan irl. <3

Also, as before, assuming everyone keeps their town wincon as I do (why has no one asked about this?), I think she's more anti-scum than anti-town.

[Iecerint]

Also, as before, assuming everyone keeps their town wincon as I do (why has no one asked about this?), I think she's more anti-scum than anti-town.

This statement addresses both of your concerns.

Though, the fact that Vifam never went ahead and claimed Kerrigan makes the last bit less valid.

[Iecerint]

I wanted to be Kerrigan's mind-slave.

[Iecerint]

It looks like it's basically 5-5, if we assume that Vifam would vote Morthas...

[Iecerint]

Ye know, I just realized that Morthas never (?) fullclaimed.

[Iecerint]

I think I know what's up.

Does the ability have a name?

[Iecerint]

I suspect that Morthas is actually Nova, a Mafia role aligned with Arcturus Mengsk, and Tosh is a corresponding fakeclaim. This fits with DeathNote's pre-game specification that some "not-so-evil" characters might be scum. Nova is sympathetic, even though she is aligned with Mengsk.

The "Hide" nameclaim doesn't fit either of them particularly well. Both roles have an ability called Cloak that might do something similar to what Morthas claims.

At any rate, I would have expected something more flavorful. It could be that Morthas was nervous about claiming the "Cloak" ability on the grounds that it's Nova-associated and felt inclined to offer something else for the ability name itself.

[Iecerint]

Nova is Mengsk-aligned regardless, but she's willing to set the rivalries of her organization aside for the greater good on occasion. She's kind of similar to Valerian Mengsk in that regard.

However, the fact that no one claimed Nova means that she's scum if she's here, so the point to argue is really whether it's plausible to put Nova into a Mengsk-Mafia-but-some-aren't-evil, and the answer is yes.

Lynching Vifam wouldn't be the end of the world.

[Iecerint]

Frank and scooby, since you obviously don't get it,

Espeonage claimed a different character and flipped a different Mafia character.

Vifam CLAIMED OVERLORD. WHY WOULD SCUM CLAIM OVERLORD WHEN SCUM HAS A FAKE CLAIM

SERIOUSLY WHY DO YOU WANT TO LYNCH VIFAM

THAT IS STUPID.

This much is a good point about Vifam. The theory we were working from IIRC is that Kerrigan is her own fakeclaim and she got spooked.

[Iecerint]

KillerJester suspected Mothas, Vifam, and one other suspect I can't recall. There are no useful or interesting omissions or inclusions re: his suspect list AFAICT.

His kill can also be justified as doctor paranoia or watcher paranoia.

[Iecerint]

Actually, I think scum almost always go for the non-WIFOM kill these days being that no one does NK-analysis anymore. So it's a decent tool, especially early on in the game, though you have to be wary of other factors (e.g. was the dead player just an obv leader, in which case he didn't necessarily have to be correct in the short term, etc).

[Iecerint]

Vifam is not scum with Espe. Near 0% chance.

He is 3rd party at worst.

[Iecerint]

And I think it's probably a nice third party at worst.

[Iecerint]

Granted, lynching nice 3rd parties ain't all bad BUT it ain't ideal innit.

[Iecerint]

Making Kerrigan an anti-scum 3rd party would be more relevant to the recent direction of the series.

Vifam didn't claim to be the Overmind -- he claimed to be an Overlord.

[Iecerint]

I doubt Kerrigan is town, unless she became town last night, and she probably would've claimed it if that'd happened. If I'm mistaken: TOWN LIARS ARE BAD.

You know what IS possible? A recruiting NON-CULT third party (like a 1-shot recruiting survivor/SK or something). I can SEE that happening. We don't have enough NK information to confirm or deny that at the moment, but it's a possibility and FUNNILY ENOUGH

FUNNILY ENOUGH

NO ONE HAS BROUGHT THAT UP.

Actually, I've alluded to that several times.

[Iecerint]

I have not specifically argued SURVIVOR OR SK, but I've argued 3rd party recruiting role.

The basis for this is that the Zerg in general and Kerrigan in particular can infest or hybridize other organisms in-universe AND we know that wincon modulation can happen AND I agree with your point about the size of this game AND Kerrigan had BETTER be in a Starcraft-themed game.

[Iecerint]

The general dialectic of this session for me has been this:

Iec: Well, Vifam/Kerrigan might be 3rd party recruiting scum or something, but is that such a big deal when town wincons (or at least mine -- ASK THE MOD ABOUT YOURSELVES GUYS, CHRIST [SPOILERS: NO ONE DOES THIS]) remain unchanged?
scooby: WELLLL THAT WOULD MEAN VIFAM ISN'T TOWN SO WE SHOULD LYNCH HIM.
Iec: Wellll I don't really think Vifam is anti-town, though...I just think he's 3rd party...also, I want more wincons, since I know I keep my town one, so I personally want that hypo-recruiter type or whatever to stick around.

[REPEAT A GILLION TIMES]

scooby: VOTE IEC YOU ARE SCUM WITH VIFAM

[Iecerint]

Vifam didn't know the story very well IIRC. He mainly did the competitive side of things. So this might partially explain such a decision.

I agree that it's not super likely, since we basically have to make-up a reason for Vifam to err.

[Iecerint]

Vifam doesn't have to be cult to be non-town. Also, the detail that Scooby can't vote Vifam is one that I'd briefly forgotten and that DH hasn't really grappled with today (?).

Anyway, I agree with the underlying thesis that lynching Morthas is the way to go.

[Iecerint]

Raynor not being able to "vote" (read: kill) Kerrigan is a major source of the (melo)drama from Starcraft 2.

My guess is that by "WIFOM" what you mean is that the game's being advertised "bastard" makes it hard to say that X is implausible.

It's true that this game's "bastard" implications mean we can "grain of salt" certain things, but I think the "bastard implications" can WAAAAAY be explained away with just wincon modulation. Positing that someone who likes the flavor enough to make a game about it will totally ignore the flavor in formulating the set-up is too extreme.

[Iecerint]

Well, I mean. I still prefer to lynch Morthas in spite of that.

I just like to fully articulate both sides, assuming that one of them isn't in imaginary-world.

[Iecerint]

It's not the ONLY reason.

I'm also skeptical that the wincon-modder is more anti-town than anti-scum, since I know that my town wincon, at least, cannot change.

So I want more wincons AND AFAIK basically there's no reason anyone who's town has anything to fear from more wincons. That's another way of putting it.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: Except that it's possible that the wincon modder gives an EXTRA win requirement rather than an ALTERNATE one.

Though whether that's an anti-town stipulation is a separate matter (i.e. because EXTRA folk will actually be more inclined to do pro-town things than ALTERNATE folk, anyway, even if EXTRA folk personally get a worse situation).

[Iecerint]

I'm also skeptical that the wincon-modder is more anti-town than anti-scum, since I know that my town wincon, at least, cannot change.

THOUGH I forgot about DH's "wincon mod stopper" ability. So that may imply that either DH is scum (I doubt it, given the Vifam situation, even though Duke is Mengsk-aligned), or the wincon-modder IS anti-town.

[Iecerint]

IT WOULD BE HELPFUL IF MORTHASCUM OR VIFAM OH WAIT HE WAS REPLACED BY SOMEONE LOL WOULD PLAY THE GAME.

[Iecerint]

Duke starts out as Confederate-aligned, then joins the Sons of Korhal (Mengsk's rebel organization) when Mengsk and Raynor save him in Episode I. Blah blah blah Mengsk overthrows the Confederacy and founds the Dominion with Duke as his right-hand-ish man, and Raynor leaves because Mengsk leaves Kerrigan to be killed by the Zerg. Duke remains Mengsk-aligned until he's killed when Kerrigan betrays the Kerrigan-Raynor-Protoss-Mengsk super alliance in Episode VI.

I posted a big flavor summary that incorporates all the claimed roles early in my post history.

I'm pretty sure several people noted the Duke-Mengsk connection in relation to your claim D2, especially because Duke switches alignments from the Confederacy to the Dominion very early in the story and is kind of a dick.

[Iecerint]

Raynor not being able to vote the Overmind doesn't make sense. @ Kerrigan does.

Not sure what SD is going on about.

[Iecerint]

I totally thought Vifam was already replaced by someone whose named started with a G and only made like 2 posts.

I guess I totally dreamed it.

[Iecerint]

I will hammer Vifam to avoid a No Lynch.

[Iecerint]

Pester Ooba or SB if you don't want to wait a day. I'm not the only player who's not voting Vifam. <_<

I'll hammer him just after 24 hours from now if he's not dead yet.

I'm feeling stubborn.

[Iecerint]

NOOOOOO STAY PLEASEEEEE.

DON"T GOOOO.

[Iecerint]

I'll even hammer Vifam early if it'll make you stay.

[Iecerint]

Quit playin games with my heart.

[Iecerint]

GBE was EXTREMELY scummy, and the only reason SB isn't obvscum is the Arcturus element, and I think it'd be ballsy to outright claim your "real" role like that.

Vote: Vifam

Woe to Kerrigan, we hardly knew ye.

You guys clearly didn't play In Utter Darkness enough...

[Iecerint]

ShadowDancer used to be Psyche, right? Was obvtown IMO. Oh well.

I don't even know who/what Ulrezja is. Is that one of the Protoss crystals, or someone from the novels...?

[Iecerint]

Looks like Ulrezja is a villain from a Map of the Month series or something. No connection to Arcturus Mengsk AFAICT. So that's kinda senseless, but w/e.

[Iecerint]

I just got a PM from the Mod that gave me a new ability called "Mafia Sided." This ability does NOT change or augment or modulate my wincon in any way, but it gives me the following information:

1. There is exactly 1 mafia remaining.
2. The sex of the role is implied to be male (due to pronoun usage).
3. Any actions that might have yielded information about that last mafia did not work N2. (Stuff @ Furco should've worked normally AFAICT.)

It's not clear whether this ability will also mess with night information from this point on or not. It implies that it affected only N2. I have sent the Mod a PM requesting clarification.

[Iecerint]

Could we keep who the various dead players replaced in the first post, please?

[Iecerint]

DeathNote has clarified that the ability will only affect Night 2.

[Iecerint]

I need to reread who defended Vifam because modifed cult leader is modified cult leader and with DemonHybrid flipping town this means someone else got recruited.

Balance reasons: How many scum left. 1 mafia + 1 recruit ? Is this remarkably balanced?

Unless I am the only one whose town wincon is 100% secure, anyone who was recruited N1 is almost certainly functionally town by this point.

They may even be dead. Either way, finding them is not the best use of effort, even if we can probably assume only 1 anti-town left.

My best guess is that DemonHybrid was recruited N1. The claim that Edmund Duke could block recruitment never made any sense with flavor, and we now know that Duke was a vengekiller. DH was also the obvious target for Vifam, as he had already gone on record defending her (so no awkward opinion change was necessary) and was viewed as town due to catching Espe.

As I stated over and over D2, you can ask the Mod about the 100%-ness of your own wincon to confirm this -- it doesn't have to be a mod-outguess thing unless the Mod randomly only wanted to share this fact with me. It's not like it's in my role PM.

If the Mod does NOT confirm this for you, let me know.

[Iecerint]

Update:

player	role name	role spec.	status	misc. claims
Kiwieagle	Zeratul		alive
killerjester Acronach	Selendis		blown to smithereens night 1
ooba HellloooNewman	Artanis	name confirm for protoss/??? for other race	alive
Scott Brosius gbevilchaos	Valerian Mengsk		alive	knew Arcturus was in the game
Morthas	Gabriel Tosh		alive
Espeonage	Arcturus Mengsk Matt Horner		lynched day 1
Iecerint kondi2424	Samir Duran		alive
Scooby avasthearties	Jimmy Raynor		alive	not allowed to vote vifam
Vifam	Kerrigan, Queen of Blades Overlord	Modified Cult Recruiter Watcher	lynched D2
Furcolow rewq455	Ulrezaj Fenix	May have vengekilled	blown to smithereens night 1
ShadowDancer Psyche	Tychus Findlay		silenced night 2.	confirms Raynor
DemonHybrid Stels	Edmund Duke	Claimed recruitment blocker; may have vengekilled	vengefully killed night 2 .

I missed where Tychus confirmed Raynor. Where?

[Iecerint]

I doubt Fenix and Zeratul are both fakeclaims. Kiwi is probably town. Also, Kiwi is the last Protoss, so Ooba should use his ability on Kiwi N3/lynching Kiwi is literally the worst possible move.

If Scooby is confirmed, that's also taken care of.

That leaves [Valerian/Tosh == SB, Morthas] as the possible lynch. Ooba will investigate Kiwi N3; my ability will not interfere. There is only 1 scum left, so unless he has redirection or something, this should establish a reasonable narrowing of the possibilities. Town Ooba will give us accurate information, and Scum Ooba will (correctly) narrow it to Ooba/SB/Morthas or Ooba/Kiwi.

I think Morthas is the best bet banking on Nova as the last scum. Since both Mengsk and Ulrezjzj are scummy scum, and Kerrigan, and there's 1 scum left, we still need a "not so evil" scum role to discern as per the Mod's early note.

[Iecerint]

You should probably go ahead and list your N1 and N2 targets so that hypothetical trackers or watchers can evaluate.

[Iecerint]

N1 I bribed kiwi. N2 I bribed Morthas

HMM. Morthas could still be scum if the kill is factional...I think I remember Greek Mythology (another DeathNote game) being set-up that way. ("Silenced" makes sense as a Ghost kill, which fits with Nova/Tosh/technically Duran, too.)

I guess Zeratul could just be scum himself as a long shot, but that sounds TOO bastard-y, almost. Meh...I still think that Ooba's ability to investigate ONLY Kiwi nails down the best move.

[Iecerint]

Tosh contracts with the Raiders to do stuff for him in SC2. After this starts, he hangs out on the ship. It's gradually revealed that his ultimate goal is to break into a prison where Spectres are all held as dangerous prisoners. At this point, Nova contacts Raynor and tells him about Tosh's intentions to create more Spectres and make an army of crazy mind monster guys.

If you side with Nova, you destroy Tosh's ability to make more Spectre's and re-secure the prison. Tosh tries to kill you in retaliation, but Nova kills him. She teaches you how to train Ghosts.

If you side with Tosh, you free the prisoners, and it's implied that many were imprisoned for being "free-thinkers." Tosh sticks with you until the end and can train Spectres using his fancy phlebotinum. You also learn that Spectres aren't all crazy mind monster guys.

I don't think he's nominally a member, though he is a functional one if you side with him.

[Iecerint]

I figure it's probably unlikely to come into play anymore at this point and it's becoming relevant to discussions SOOOOO I'll go ahead and elaborate about my role a little.

My role had a series of REDACTED components when I first received my PM. At that point, all I knew was that I was town and Duran. After each night, another aspect of my role was revealed to me. [Crumb]

After N1, I learned that one of the REDACTED aspects was an ability called Demi-God. This prevents night-death under certain conditions. Those conditions were fulfilled N1 and N2. I will not elaborate further. At the time I assumed that this was a NEW ability (i.e. that it would only apply N2 and on), but I just got confirmation via separate PM clarification that the mechanism also could've protected me N1.

After N2, I learned about my "Mafia-Sided" ability, which I've confirmed ONLY affected investigation results on the single remaining male scum character N2 and will not affect things N3 or after.

WAIT WTF NOVA IS NOT MALE WHOAAAAAAAAAA.

OK so I'm gonna confirm the intent of the pronoun use.

[Iecerint]

The Mod has clarified that he did not intend to communicate anything by the pronoun use and that he simply defaulted to male pronouns.

My guess is that the pronoun MAY have (in error) referenced the sex of the player, in which case it's basically now a useless detail.

Oh well. I tried to get something useful out of the Mafia-Sided ability.

[Iecerint]

Things I'd like to see happen:

1. What did

Morthas

(or whomever) hear from the Mod?

2. Where is

Scooby

confirmed by Tychus?

3.

Kiwieagle

needs to elaborate on what that multi-post means...

I just realized that Ulrezja/

Furco

could easily have done the N2 kill. DUH. It makes sense that he'd do it over obvscumMorthas, too. Dunno whether "silenced" is plausible Ulrezja flavor, but maybe. I'd assumed it was like a silenced gunshot or something ala Nova ala a living character, but it might be some kind of cosmic thing instead.

[Iecerint]

Did he clarify

your

situation?

[Iecerint]

Kerrigan as Vifam as Cult Recruiter is an example of /outguessing from this game itself, etc., soooooo ye. Inferring the set-up is a basic part of playing any theme game. It's true that it's relatively easy for scum to play along, and it's easy to guess wrong, but that's different from the act itself not being helpful.

I suppose I can say there's no basis I'm aware of for anyone's situation being different than mine. My play since D1 probably reflects that, etc.

I'll look through Tychus myself tomorrow.

[Iecerint]

Why did you target Shadow?

[Iecerint]

And ye, I see his comment.

[Iecerint]

I have already fullclaimed everything except for the mechanism behind my nightkill immunity. I will not elaborate on that.

I have also gotten a new ability elaborated each night, as prior mentioned, so I assume I will also get something new N3 and so on.

[Iecerint]

It is 100% impossible that I was culted N1.

1. DemonHybrid claimed to be a player whose ability was a recruitment-blocker (like an Atheist Preacher in normative cult games) and that he had targeted me N1. If DemonHybrid was Town, he was telling the truth, and I was not recruitable N1.

2. If DemonHybrid was recruited N1 (but he kept his town wincon as reflected in his flip, similar to how I've been claiming my own hypo-recruitment would work according to the Mod), then he was recruited N1 and I wasn't.

So I can't have been recruited N1. I'm actually the only player of whom this is true.

The only way I could be cult is if I were recruited N0, or I have some kind of recruitment-blocker-blocker ability. Or DH lied about his ability without being any kind of non-town role.

I personally think (2) is what happened.

I thought Vifam was Kerrigan, Recruitment Mechanics D2, and I was in fact the first one to note as much IIRC. I didn't want to lynch her in SPITE of that because, because I know my town wincon can't change + the major plot theme of SC2, I thought she was more a threat to scum than to town.

[Iecerint]

The major plot theme I'm talking about is that Kerrigan needs to be preserved to fight the scums (Dark Voice rather than Mengsk, but the concept may've been preserved). SC2 has been relevant since the Valerian Mengsk claim, at least.

Duran appears in SC2 in the form of Dr. Narud, though it's not 100% confirmed.

[Iecerint]

As I stated about 2-3 times today, the only remaining Protoss is Kiwi.

I've also already stated that I have bulletproof mechanics, so you can already explain-away missing kills in such a fashion.

[Iecerint]

OK, after you sometime. <_<

Still, I endorsed the theory aggressively. And more importantly, I can't possibly have been recruited.

[Iecerint]

I doubt it. Namely, Kerrigan flipped with her own color.

Kerrigan's hypo-cultees probably kept their town wincons.

I'll reconsider that possibility if Morthas flips town, though (re: his claim that DeathNote said I was in a unique position or something).

Vote: Morthas

[Iecerint]

Scott is cleared because ShadowDancer=Tychus cleared Raynor. This is confirmed by SD's iso.

My Mafia-Sided ability specifically implies that the remaining player it alludes to is mafia rather than just anti-town generally. I think it's likely that 1 mafia still remains.

I agree that gillions of kills are spooky in such an event.

[Iecerint]

OOPS SORRY

*SCOOBY* is cleared. I thought he was "scotty" for some reason.

Scott Brosius is not cleared, but people are leaning non-scum because they're doubting he claimed Valerian-who-knows-Arcturus was a gambit.

[Iecerint]

It's probably better if you don't clarify who you'll block to remove the benefits no-kill WIFOM.

Is ooba town to you for a reason other than the feelings in your heart?

[Iecerint]

Dr. Hanson would've been an obv-Kerrigan fakeclaim, too, kinda like how Tosh was an obv-Nova fakeclaim. I'm happy /outguess was kinda ftw.

DH, I thought you were recruited N1 by Vifam and hence lying about the unrecruitable aspect of your claim. The fact that I kept my town wincon made it so your flip didn't matter.

Was a non-scum ever under serious scrutiny this game?

[Iecerint]

What was Vifam's wincon?

[Iecerint]

I hope he didn't just make her a gimp SK. People make it too hard to win as an SK on this site.

I wonder what other secret abilitie I had. Maybe I was also secretly Cult-Sided?

[Iecerint]

Oh, neat.

Could I have perma-joined Kerrigan?