Mini 1247- Auction Mafia: Abandoned

[Magua]

/confirm

[Magua]

@Mod:

Can you answer Klazam's questions in #26 please?

[Magua]

Some thoughts based on previous auction games and my reading of the rules; these might be superceded by what the mod says...

Pretty sure we start with 20 points, that's it. No more. So unless you think you're going to get killed Night 1, probably shouldn't blow your entire wad today, especially on anything other than the 100% Night-kill or the 100% Investigation.
Pretty sure there'll be auctions at the start of every Day. May or may not be for the same things.

Thinking about plans where we can abuse massclaim of buying to either ensure that we get the roleblocker or that we can narrow down to a few (3) individuals who may have gotten it. It may not be possible D1, but should be possible D2 and beyond.

[Magua]

I agree that no one *else* should claim what they're bidding on, but I'm claiming this: I'm the one bidding on roleblocker. I'll explain why after the auction phase is over.

[Magua]

But...uhh....last time the mod posted bids, there weren't any bids for roleblocker.

Do you think I'm lying?

[Magua]

But...uhh....last time the mod posted bids, there weren't any bids for roleblocker.

Do you think I'm lying?

I thought you might have posted the wrong ability, since your wording made it sound as though you were bidding against someone.

Aaaaah, I see.

No.

I'm bidding on roleblocker; I sent my bid in right before my post.

[Magua]

I've seen scum pull gambits like that before. Also, I've seen scum that stupid before.

I don't like your "I'm going to bid 75% of my points on a 100% Nightkill to kill somebody for a retarded-ass reason" stance.

There is some strong cognitive dissonance between what you're saying in these two statements, and what you were saying earlier about wanting more WIFOM in the auctioning. Is there any particular reason you think daphne is not WIFOMing in his interactions with you currently?

Unrelatedly, I am very much feeling that bv310 is mafia.

Sodaspirit, less scummy than bv310 but still scummy.

Daphne is probably town.

[Magua]

Ok.

I have roleblock.

Part 2: I want the following (and only the following) to claim:
Busdriver
25% Night-kill
100% Night-kill

If these aren't claimed (especially the 100% Night-kill) we know scum are down that many points, which will make things much easier down the line. If the busdriver is town, then we can name Night-kill targets as well and use them as extra lynches.

Protections and investigations should not claim.

VOTE: bv310

[Magua]

No one should claim today as it just gives mafia info on who has how much points left so they can kill those with the most points.

Busdriver claiming is 1000000000000000000000000% protown because if both roleblock and busdrive are controlled by the town, we know that our Night actions aren't going to get fucked with and it means that we can plan with much higher cohesion.

The NKs should claim for accountability because it doesn't matter if they get shot tonight (shot still goes off). This can go two ways; mostly applies to the 100% NK, but I'd like the 25% NK to claim too:
- If the scum has the 100% NK and they don't claim, they'll get fucked over when we force bids D2 or D3 and get caught.
- If the person with 100% NK claims, there's responsibility for their shot (triply so if we have a busdrive claim), *and* in the case of the 100% NK person, this person is cleared from fucking around with future auctions because we already know they're out of points, so if, eg, tomorrow there's a 100% NK that went for 10 points and is unclaimed (and so scum) we know it's not them.

Lurco's play is bad, but bad play does not equal scum play at this point, especially for a player like Lurconis.

Who took my bulletproof? I think bulletproof shouldn't be claimed but the rest should.

Vote Magua
for being the first to vote.

You may note that we're not in an RVS. We've had discussions about the game and the strategy, so there's already plenty to base your vote off of.

For instance, do you think that the protection should claim? Because your above quote indicates you do, so I'm curious.

I do agree that the 100% NK should claim (and that we should choose the most town person of the day to bid on it, so that it'll stay of scum's hands), but I do agree with Lurco's thinking that the rest really shouldn't claim unless it's really prudent for them to do so.

Do you think busdrive should claim?

EBWOP: Peregrine, your reasons 1 and 2 for voting me are incredibly contradictory.

[Magua]

Player a is town they claim 100% nk right now scum a thinks well I was going to kill them but insteaf wil kill player b as they will have more points to use against us in the future.

You wouldn't expect any of these rolls to claim d1 normally I don't see how these mechanics change that. It still is just giving scum info day 1 they dont need

Part the first: In a normal game, a Vigilante wouldn't claim because they can get more than one shot. In this game, you have one shot which is going to be used tonight. The only reason for investigations to not claim today is that they can get shot tonight, but you can bet your ass that all investigations will claim tomorrow or be treated as a scumclaim.

Part the second: Scum have two options. They can buy shit and not claim it. If so, they'll get nailed to the wall because tomorrow we can force someone to bid a certain amount for a certain thing, and if they can't because they don't have the points they should, we lynch them. Scum who buy shit and don't claim are going to get caught and outted. Or, they can buy shit and claim it. If they buy shit and claim it, they're responsible for its usage -- they can't use the 100% NK to kill confirmed town because it would mean their death.

Part the third: Investigations and bargain phases mean that people can be cleared and given their points. So I'm much less concerned about keeping who has points alive; I'm much more concerned with creating one or two confirmed town and then forcing people to give them points and having them buy bulletproof and, bam, game's broken.

For Peregrine, the reason I bought and claimed roleblocker is so that it's accountable. The less interactions amongst the Night actions, the easier it will be on us; this is doubly true if the busdrive is in town hands. As is, scum won't be able to roleblock an investigation role or killing role, which is critically important considering how many points they went for. It's to no one's interest but scum's for town to spend 10 points on an investigation and get blocked because scum spent 4 pts on roleblocker.

I don't think protect should be claimed either.

Good. We agree on that. Do you think the kills should be claimed?

The only real claim that makes sense for town is the night kills, so we can distinguish if it's the only one, and, if not, who the vig target is compared to the mafia target. And as long as you don't block the vig, we should know by tomorrow.

Do you think the busdrive should be claimed?

[Magua]

Bus drive should be claimed and then NOT USED.

Bus drive claim means that we can direct the NK and lynch them if they deviate.

[Magua]

Far be it from me to disrupt you from breaking my game, but you might want to read the rules of the bargain phase again.

Yes, yes, you said, only one completed deal per person *per phase*. That's all we need.

That ''we'' sounds like scum trying to decide who directs gets killed.

I would very much like to direct who gets killed, though that's only possible if both the 100% NK and busdrive are in town hands.

Face it. This is a breakable game. The only people who should be against a breaking plan are the scum.

[Magua]

What? Seriously?

Confirm

VOTE: bv310

"Even if he is scum" => support for the wagon without being on the wagon
"We need more discussion" => brings up nothing to discuss, mentions *nothing* about any of the actual ongoing discussion
BV310 is voting Mego, who is voting Daphne, but BV doesn't mention this *at all*

[Magua]

@Magua- I think only the NKs should claim, and that town should direct them.

They should claim. Yes.

However, they *cannot* be directed unless the busdriver is in town hands. This should be blatantly obvious. Which is why the busdriver needs to claim if they're town. No busdriver claim => no directing of kills. We can still hold them responsible, but it'd be so much better to say "Shoot bv310 because he's scum."

If there's only one kill tonight, I would be more likely to vote uncledaphne tomorrow. Of course, one kill tonight could very well mean scum hit either the bulletproof or doc protect, so it wouldn't be set in stone, but it would certainly make it more likely that uncledaphne wanted the kill because scum don't have one.

How does there being only one kill mean anything about daphne's alignment? If scum lack a factional night-kill, there'll be one kill. If scum do not lack a factional night-kill, there'll be two. Regardless of whether daphne is scum or not.

[Magua]

@Magua- Scum has an 10% chance of roleblocking a town-bought power if you hadn't claimed (and assuming your town).
You have a 8.25% chance of blocking the NK, assuming they get a free one.
Any redirection has the same chance of redirecting a free NK anywhere.

Scum have a 0% chance of blocking anything, as I have the roleblock. That's why I bought it. I claimed that I bought it so that there's no WIFOM or confusion tomorrow in terms of whether someone got roleblocked or who may have roleblocked, etc.

Speaking of which: Magua, why did you buy the roleblocker?

The reason I went for roleblock over bus driver is that a bus driven investigation is still potentially useful, a roleblocked investigation is worthless. Bus driven kills are still problematic, but N1 could just as easily backfire on scum as anything else.

The fact that no bus driver has claimed pretty much confirms that scum have it.

How is BV scummy? He seems to not be adding anything but I don't see anything said yet as particularly scummy?

You answer your own question here.

As for Uncledaphne: Uncledaphne needs to be replaced, but I don't think he's scum. I'm certainly not voting him.

[Magua]

Umad?

Depends. Are you scum or town?

[Magua]

Odd that you're not self-hammering then, wouldn't you say?

[Magua]

Yeah. You need to get replaced.

[Magua]

Only if you don't get replaced.

[Magua]

I'm more concerned with why you would buy either of them at all.

...

So the scum don't have them. Seemed obvious to me.

[Magua]

Elaborate.

[Magua]

It would be better for town overall if no one had them imo.

And yet there's no mechanics to stop scum from buying it (which is what the non-busdriver claim is showing happened). Also note that I was outbid for the roleblocker initially. So me not buying it would be the scum having both the roleblocker and the busdriver for only 8 points.

PEdit: Your next post: your plan-of-attack ignores the fact that scum sniped the bus driver. Following your plan-of-attack ensures that scum get the abilities for the absolute minimal cost.

Well, in effect that is a non-answer. Or, I should say, it's the generic answer you would give regardless of alignment.
If you have a town plan for it's use, you don't want to give it away.
If your scum, you wouldn't admit it anyway.

You are entirely correct. But, I give obvious answers to obvious questions. It's a curse.

What we really need is Uncle to play a normal game and discuss his possible use of the abilities. Otherwise, it makes more sense to lynch him so the "hard" NK is controlled, even at the loss of the doc.

But we need his input now, because if we can get him to sell the NK or not use it or use as directed, then we don't want to lynch him.

My big problem with uncle, and why I want him replaced, is that the attempted self hammer makes no sense regardless of alignment -- it's just outright trolling and/or bad play.

There are many things we could try to do with daphne's NK, but I have no faith that he'll actually agree to do any of them.

I'm not sure if the "soft" NK should claim. If it's in town hands we could ask they refrain from using it tonight. If in scum hands, it doesn't matter what we want.

Total disagreement. If someone has the 25% NK they should claim, and if they claim it, they should use it.

[Magua]

@Magua- Will the mod replace a player at the request of other players? Otherwise, you may be right about Uncle, but I also think he feeds off of the attacks on him to dumb it up, so to speak.

TSQ has already indicated he won't replace daphne. I'm pondering about it, but in general I still don't feel he should be lynched at this point. I don't think he's lying about having the NK or the protect, so we can probably wait and see how the Night shakes out -- eg, if scum dies then he lives, if scummy-looking-town dies he lives, etc.

I don't have to tell you the problems with the claiming the 25% NK, do I?

You do have to tell me, as I'm not seeing any problem with it.

[Magua]

I will kill who everyone wants to kill. I am not a troll

Bus driver makes it an incredibly bad plan for it to be specified who you should kill.

[Magua]

Godfuckingdammit.

[Magua]

@GreyICE:

Please confirm that you do or do not have the 100% NK.

[Magua]

I've just made a bargain for the bus driver.

@GreyICE:

Shoot bv310 tonight.

[Magua]

Before anything else, GreyICE claims his shot.

[Magua]

Before anything else, GreyICE claims his shot.

[Magua]

That's all I wanted to know.

sorgster is mafia then. He was roleblocked last Night.

[Magua]

How does sorgster being roleblocked mean he is scum?

Counterquestion: Who do you think is scum?

Elaboration: It's not 100%-slam-dunk-mod-confirmed-cop-has-a-guilty-on-him scum, but it's pretty close. It is mod confirmed that sorgster got roleblocked, and it is mod confirmed that the bus driver was not involved.

So here's how it works:
- You buy an ability, such as Roleblocker, during the Auction phase.
- Someone gets

lynched

modkilled for not understanding basic site rules
- In the Bargain phase, you strike up a conversation with them via PM and offer to trade your ability (Roleblocker, in this case) to them with the caveat that they must target a specific person (in this case, sorgster).
- ???
- Mod confirmed profit.

So yesterday I did this with Peregrine: I traded my Roleblocker, with the caveat that it must target sorgster, for his Bus Driver, with the caveat that it must target (two people who will not be specified at this time). Both of these happenings are mod-confirmed to both myself and Peregrine.

So, jumping back to sorgster:
- It could've been mafia shot whoever had bulletproof or whoever was Doctor'ed. This is certainly a possibility.
- I don't really see it as likely that mafia don't have a Night-kill. If, in fact, they don't have a Night-kill, then that means that uncledaphne has to be mafia, and it means that we should be able to quickly wrap this game up by forcing people to claim their bids tomorrow, so I'm willing to let this one slide. (Side note: sorgster was 100% sure that "The mafia have an NK" yesterday.)

Finally, sorgster's just been all around scummy. Voting me for being the first to vote when this game should have no RVS, voting daphne for essentially playstyle reasons.

VOTE: sorgster

Whoever used the 100% Investigation yesterday should claim it.
I'd really like whoever has the Night-kill, the Roleblocker, and the Bus Driver to claim.
Protection/Investigation/Bulletproof winners should stay quiet.

[Magua]

The complete deal was "I trade Roleblocker to Peregrine, under the condition he uses it on sorgster. In return, he trades Bus Driver to me, under the condition I use it on X and Y."

Soda, if you don't suspect sorgster, who do you suspect?

[Magua]

who were x and y? Can you please say that?

I see zero reason to say that at this time.

With the roleblocker unclaimed, it's safe to assume it's in scum hands. In order to prevent "guys, I was roleblocked!" tomorrow, Sorgster should trade the 100% investigation to someone in the bargain phase. I'm ok with not lynching him today if he agrees with this.

If someone claims the roleblocker, then Sorgster should give the 100% Investigation to bv310.

Peregrine and Lurconis both just don't seem to even be bothering to play, which is really throwing me off. I can understand being suspicious of bv310, but to FoS him/vote him the page after someone outs an inno report on him, without mentioning the report at all, is just...yeah.

[Magua]

@Peregrine:

OK I GET IT I'M BLIND. HAPPY?

No, seriously. With the roleblocker and bus driver claimed, I want sorgster to agree to trade the 100% Investigate to bv310.

I see many. 1. One of those could have been the target and could have been either protected/bulletproof.etc.

If there was doctor/busdriver interaction, then it means mafia shot the person who the doctor protected (since both the kill and the protect would get bus-driven). Similarly, the only way bulletproof protected was if the mafia shot the person who had bulletproof. In both of these cases, it does not matter one whit if there was a bus-drive or not -- a protect only occurs if the mafia shoots the person who is protected.

I refuse to agree to giving away my investigate. The chance of giving is to scum is possible. You can validate my answers after I hang next day phase.
I dislike how you seem to be assuming bv is conftown. There is a possibility of a godfather and a lying soda. The lying soda is more possible as soda seems very suspicious at the moment.

1. Voided claimed the innocent on bv310, not Soda.
2. The chance of bv310 being godfather is much, much, *much* lower than the chance that you are simply mafia. bv310 being non-godfather mafia only works if both bv310 and Voidedmafia are mafia.
3. bv310, even with his lurkeriffic ways and me wanting to lynch him D1, is more trusted by me (and, I'll wager, the town at large) than you at this point.

If you make the trade with bv310, you can specify in the agreement who you want him to investigate. Making him investigate *you* should be an absolutely splendid idea if you're town.

[Magua]

Why is that? Peregrine has both the roleblocker and the busdriver. It's impossible for you to *not* get a result unless Peregrine is mafia, which he's not.

[Magua]

Grey, you got that wrong -_-. Soda claimed the town investigation on bv. I just tried documenting what claims we had.

You're right. Mai bad. Soda is town then.

[Magua]

Cause scum can't clear someone for town points?

Soda-scum certainly can't, no.

[Magua]

1.It was soda(#339)2.I found it funny soda thought of godfather, buddies maybe?3, If soda is scum, bv is very likely to be scum. I don't want to give my items to scum. Also, if I was scum, wouldn't I prefer giving investigate or letting a scumbuddy claim the investigate instead and let them use it on me?

Scum have every incentive not to give an investigation away, because then they can't lie about the results. Can't fake a guilty on a town, can't fake an inno on a buddy.

You're super suspicious of soda and bv being scum which is improbable at best. So force bv310 to investigate you with the bargain -- this is mod confirmed to work.

Either bv310 says you're inno tomorrow, in which case, you don't get lynched (this should be good for you), or bv310 says you're guilty, you get lynched, and then (if you flip town) bv310 gets lynched, and if he doesn't flip godfather, Soda gets lynched.

You not wanting to trade the investigation, and specifically you not wanting to be investigated, seriously reads as you simply being scum.

[Magua]

Confirm

VOTE: sorgster

[Magua]

I'll happily accept death next day phase. I just have a suspicion on someone who I wish to confirm. I really wish to use the investigate then. If I give my investigate away with that condition, then I eat the bullet tonight. If not, I might find scum and eat the bullet in the day phase. I prefer the day phase death.

WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN

You think you might eat a bullet if you *don't* have the investigation, but you're unconcerned about eating the bullet if you *do* have the investigation?

Just die.

eh why is soda clear? I've been pretty damn ill last few days and am kind of out of it!

sorg seems like townsorg to me, sort of. Check out newbie 1137 or Neruzian era mafia for townsorg...

Don't believe Soda-scum would offer up the innocent on bv310-town when I was gunning for his blood yesterday. I can see Soda-scum offering up an innocent on bv310-scum, but that ties them together so hard if one falls that the other is guaranteed to get lynched, so I'm willing to ignore it for now.

[Magua]

This is simple.

Sorgster says he's unwililng to trust bv310 because bv310 and Sodaspirit may be mafia together, or bv310 might be a godfather.
Sorgster has a scum suspect who he refuses to name, but has no fear that this scum suspect might be a godfather.

Sorgster is afraid that if he trades his investigation to someone else, he'll be killed.
Sorgster is *not* afraid that he'll be killed if he doesn't trade his investigation.

Sorgster is afraid that if he trades the investigation to someone else, that person will get rolebocked.
Sorgster is *not* afraid that he'll be roleblocked if he doesn't trade his investigation.

Sorgster is scum. He bought the investigation hoping for town cred, but absolutely does not want the town to actually get use from it, and is now just trying to lunge at any opportunity that keeps that from happening.

[Magua]

@Sorgster:

At this point in the game, I pretty much trust *every* *single* *other* *person* more than I trust you, which can be told because of my vote to lynch you. I don't give a rat's ass who you give the investigation to. I want you to give it to *someone who is not you.*

Now: Unofficial vote count, cause it's been a week or so and we still don't have one:

Sorgster (4): Magua, GreyICE, hiplop, bv310
GreyICE (2): PeregrineV, Voidedmafia
Voidedmafia (1): Shanba

Not voting (4): Lurconis, sorgster, SodaSpirit17, DeathRowKitty

Lurconis briefly voted for bv310 (terrible). sorgster and Soda have both been on and active, but neither has voted. That needs to be rectified. DeathRowKitty has had a few posts, but no votes. Also needs to be rectified.

Town
-----
PeregrineV - His ideas with the bargaining phase are solid gold are exactly not the sort of thing I would expect scum to offer out of the blue.
bv310 - This is based heavily on Soda's investigations. I still think bv310's play has been emphatically null and all, but I don't think there's a godfather, which means he can only be mafia with Soda, which means there's no reason to suspect him unless Soda has already flipped mafia.
GreyICE - Based mostly on an uncledaphne-townread. This is very calm and distant for GreyICE that I've seen, which is throwing me a bit, but I still think GreyICE is town.
Sodaspirit - Definitely do not see Soda-scum giving an unasked-for investigation result on anyone out of the blue.

Scum
----
Sorgster - 3000% refusal to help the town.
Lurconis/DeathRowKitty/hiplop - One or more of these. Sheer outright lurking, few-to-no-reads, few-to-no-positions, no presence. They're all indistinguishable for me at this point, which is really bad in DRK's case.

Null
----
Voidedmafia, Shanba - Yeah, er. No real impressions one way or another.

[Magua]

"SHEEPSHEEPSHEEP I don't really care who dies let's just get this day over with" a town read does not make.

[Magua]

Unofficial vote count:

SodaSpirit17 (4): Lurconis, hiplop, Voidedmafia, sorgster
Sorgster (3): Magua, bv310, SodaSpirit17
GreyICE (1): PeregrineV
Voidedmafia (1): Shanba
PeregrineV (1): GreyICE

Not voting (1): DeathRowKitty

@Magua, I'll give you my investigation during bargain phase under the condition that you investage person y, will say who y is later in pm during bargain phase and that you must post your investigation results here as soon as Day 3 starts.

Agreed, as long as Person Y isn't bv310. UNVOTE: Sorgster.

Sodaspirit's vote on sorgster in #492/493 would've been hammer except that GreyICE unvoted in #488.

@Soda:

Why did you say "sorry if I hammered" when you voted?

DeathRowKitty needs a prod. The mod also needs a prod.

[Magua]

Peregrine is town, GreyICE. Move on with your life.

[Magua]

Definitely not hammering soda at this point in time. His investigation result on bv310 + the speed that the wagon built on him are both holding me back.

Seriously prodding the mod, however.

[Magua]

The thing is that I've sent TSQ two PMs, the last of which was on Monday, and he posted on-site on Tuesday. So, yeah. Not a good sign. DeathRowKitty hasn't posted in over 9 days. Also not a good sign.

It's too bad, because I've never gotten a win by breaking a game before.

I'm guessing three scum, probably DeathRowKitty / sorgster / Voidedmafia. Pretty sure PeregrineV, GreyICE, bv310, Sodaspirit are all town.

[Magua]

You're just a very null presence. Never really felt like you were scumhunting or actively engaged in what was going on. It was all very "meh."

[Magua]

<_<
>_>

Yeah.

So, um.

<_<
>_>

*clears throat*

Scum QT

[Magua]

@Magua- If it was any consolation, I was going to 25% NK on you tonight.

Lulz. No you weren't. =P