Mini 1250: That 70s Smalltown - GAME OVER
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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It's not even about outguessing the mod.
It's basically saying this:
We know every PR in the game AND who has them.
Day 1 is nearly always a random lynch, since nobody has good evidence yet, unless somebody wants to claim scum?
So a good place to start with a lynch is "what role can we remove that will hurt scum the most to lose, and hurt town the least to move?" And the answer is it's the Hyde role.-
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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In post 88, Seacore wrote:It's not even about outguessing the mod.
It's basically saying this:
We know every PR in the game AND who has them.
Day 1 is nearly always a random lynch, since nobody has good evidence yet, unless somebody wants to claim scum?
So a good place to start with a lynch is "what role can we remove that will hurt scum the most to lose, and hurt town the least to?" And the answer is it's the Hyde role.lose
Fixed. Should not be discussing moving office while typing.-
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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No, I'm not proposing that we mislynch you.
I'm saying that I agree Iam, that rather than start with a usual round of RVS, we should begin our discussion on who the best case mislynch would be. And it's you.
I don't like your defence by the way. First of all, how are you going to stop us if a bunch of us agree to lynch you?
Secondly, assuming you are town, there are 8 other people that your mislynch calculation applies to. Yes, if we mislynch somebody and both NKs go through, of course we go from 12 to 9. 9 players is still 5 v 3 v 1 by the way, assuming no cross kills.
I get a taste of scum saying "I can't believe I'm getting run up for this! I haven't even done anything scummy yet!"
If you really want to prevent your lynch, convince us that you're town by scum hunting, not just saying "hey, don't lynch me for that reason"-
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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I think there's a little confusion so I will give you some benefit of the doubt.
I'm saying you should be an early and significant wagon toDay. This is because we have the least to lose if you are the mislynch compared to any other mislynch and the most to gain if you are a scum lynch compared to any other scum lynch.
I am not saying you should be the inevitable lynch. But whereas most games are forced to start with some random wagons or some contrived "scum tells" to get the ball rolling, the benefit/risk analysis of lynching your role gives us a good start to this game.-
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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So
A) Major Scum Yell
B) Seems legitimately scummy
C) Has seemed fairly scummy all day
Okay, so A and B seem much the same and require a fairly incompetent scum team
C is out of reach
So since it's not appropriate to talk about lynching anybody, because there isn't a good reason to do so, anybody seen any good TV lately?-
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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Really? Oh dear.
Let me try and explain it a bit slower.
I was discussing what I thought was, so far, the best lynch choice of today.
You told me that I didn't have a good enough reason for deciding it was the best lynch choice of today.
So I asked you what your criteria were
You responded with three criteria that are currently inaccessible. Two of them require the scum team to cock up, which they haven't done yet, and the third requires we wait until the end of the day and evaluate.
I then, rather flippantly, tried to point out that we can't really discuss anything in game.
You seem to be okay with RVS, randomly discussing who to lynch. Each of these random targets has 8/12 chance of being a mislynch. The consequences of some of these mislynches are bad for town. If I die, we lose a confirmed townie. If Kelso dies, we lose a JK. etc.
Conversley, there are 4 scum lynches out there. Some of them have really minor side effects for the scum, like losing Bob, since we as town would probably end up dictating (to a certain degree) where the inventions go anyway.
But you seem okay with that.
You aren't okay with discussing somebody who has the same chance as anybody else at being scum or being a mislynch under the context of minimising the risk and maximising the benefit. An invisible townie is not helpful. An invisible scum is terribad for the rest of us.-
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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More information is always good.
On Day 3 Town-Seacore will provide a confirmed townie to the town.
On Day 3 Scum-Seacore will be forced to provide a name to the town.
Subsequently, if Town-Seacore dies, that townie is confirmed. If scum-seacore dies, that townie is not confirmed (but not necessarily scum)
Lynching Town-Seacore before this happens - major benefit to scum and major loss to town
Lynching Scum-Seaore before this happens - small gain to town (due to elimination of noise) small loss to scum (they get to work out that somebody isn't the SK)
The point, kdowns, is that everybody is potentially scum. At this point the only information we have, until reads get developed and flips happen, is what roles are out there.
But I'm done discussing this. Your defence so far is not convincing. It's still "no don't vote me for that! Somebody else could be scum".
Start putting down some reads or just go quiet until you have some reads to put down. Either way, trying to convince me that you aren't a good lynch because you might be a mislynch is ineffective-
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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Policy lynches on roles, not always bad things.
And my discussion around the policy lynch, is indeed generating information. I think I may have actually found scum there based on the reaction, although it's not firm.
Seems my actions in generating discussion and information are doing a whole lot more than your 'waiting' and telling people to scum hunt. Good to know. Thanks for the advice.-
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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So, you think better information on people's intentions is gained when you say
"Here's something that I'm not serious about, discuss"?
Or
"Here is a really good idea that we should totally do"?
If it comes down to the deadline, and we have nobody better, I'll be absolutely for lynching kdowns. Both based on the 'policy lynch' component and on his reaction.
Therefore, at the moment, to me, he's todays best lynch.
But yes, I'm watching for his defence, I'm watching for other people commenting on the case, either for or against, I'm also watching people who aren't contributing.
It's early days, I haven't finished scum hunting. In fact, the whole purpose of the conversation is to start scum hunting.-
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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In post 95, kdowns wrote:Pushing a Lynch on that basis is more of a Null-Scum action.
I think Iam is possibly the more scummier one for now due to the fact that he actually brought this up as a case when the RVS had pretty much started.
At want point did this change? Was it due to an iam post or one of mine?
There's a lot to read, and I don't have the time really. Plus from my skimming there's a lot that doesn't add much.
For those who are attacking me for trying to policy lynch instead of scum hunting, I'll say again that I was arguing for starting our discussion focussed on kdown and going from there, rather than just having random votes and wasting time. Basically, i was agreeing with Iam. And I think most people have to admit it's been fairly successful in starting a real conversation.
I haven't loved kdown's responses to the pressure, but I'm willing to see newb in it as much as scum. I still get an inkling of him being upset in a "damn, I hadn't even scumslipped yet" kind of way.
But lets move on.
One post has concerned me more than most
In post 121, ConSpiracy wrote:
In post 84, Seacore wrote:Hey, Red, man, Red. I served in WW2, you and I, we gotta stick together.
But I agree with Midge, man, Hyde's sneaky. Sometimes, I can't even see him! Like when I'm at home and he's not there.
Unvote. Vote kdowns
How convenient, when you happen to be Leo. And that you were supportive of this 5 minutes after iam and didn't even think of this yourself before.
What does me being Leo have to do with anything? And yes, I hadn't really thought about it myself, I was actually too busy having fun with the idea of talking in character and then when Iam posted I thought "yes, that's a really good idea".
This seems like a mud throwing attack, saying as much about me as possible in the post and hoping it just kind of paints me as bad. If it wasn't me, I'd actually suspect cons and my slot of being buddies, because it feels like that kind of vague FOS that is often used that way.
I'm not liking MoI and Cons either. MoI finds me scummy for my pushing of the policy lynch, fine. But then he says to Cons
In post 129, MagnaofIllusion wrote:@Conspiracy– so in 121 you properly call out Seacore on his scummy play and then vote Quilford for making what you call a joke? Explain how what he did was scummy at all.
I draw attention to the "properly". Cons did nothing of the kind. His two points against me were the one mentioned above about me being Leo and not coming up with it on my own, and Cons not understanding that I was jokingly giving up scum hunting based on kdown's requirements.
So, just because Cons targeted somebody that MoI found scummy (ie Me) MoI has declared it "properly calling me out". It was nothing of the kind, there was nothing of substance in Cons attack. MoI is a better player than this, he knows that just because somebody agrees with you, it doesn't make them right. He also knows that scum will often try and come up with extra reasons instead of just sheeping, to make it look like they're contributing.
MoI doesn't attack him for this, instead he attacks him for where he put his vote. This looks a little like coaching to me.
That's enough of a wall for now
Unvote. Vote ConS
FOS MoI-
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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I still stand by that, all other things being equal, lynching kondi based on role is not a terrible idea, but yes it was mostly to generate conversation. I'm not in the habit of announcing exactly why I'm making cases or pushing stances, it tends to detract from them. If I'm attacking somebody to get information out of them, I'm going to say that I find them really scummy, not that I think they may be scummy and I just want to see how they react.
Anyway, I'm going to be on a bit of V/LA it's the weekend and inlaws are visiting. Plus, there's a baby I haven't seen much of all week. But I'll be checking in now and then.-
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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Prior to the back and forth I was considering Ice Guy as the third scum with MoI and ConS. I'm still not convinced he isn't, but if he is, seriously good work there from MoI and Iceguy, for that argument to be fake would require a decent amount of dedication.
That being said, I'd still rather a ConS lynch today. But will support an MoI lynch. I really don't think my ability is that powerful that I have to stay off the wagon.
Also, for the record I do not support being JK'd N1 and N2.
I support "probably" being JK'd N1 and N2. I'd like there to be a little randomness in it. This way, scum don't know for sure that the JK is busy, and also might try to risk it and kill me. I understand that runs the risk of a scum JK 'randomly' not protecting me and then me dying. But so be it, my role is not that strong.-
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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Hiplop, you're stretching.
MoI - please find a game that is counter evidence to my claims
hiplop - that's not possible
MoI - that's not good for your argument
hiplop - when I said it's not possible, I meant I couldn't be bothered
MoI - that's still not good for your argument
I mean, I think MoI is scum too, but I think you're stretching.
In other news, I'm still here, waiting for the lurkers and the flakers to post.-
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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I didn't love kdown's hammer. I was waiting for the lurkers and flakers to be replaced or return, and then I was going to argue for ConS's lynch. That being said, MoI's lynch got us a scum kill, good job MoI. I would have been arguing for MoI's lynch today so again, no biggy.
But still, I don't like the one line hammer.
That being said, anybody have anything to report before we get started?-
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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@Mod - I'm not voting for anybody at the moment.
I don't like IceGuy's contributions today. It looks like 'busywork' to me. Particularly when, 1) He ignored Quil's immediate claim of Night Action and 2)He demanded responses from those of us who have no action.
kdowns - You think I'm likely scummy because I championed Iam's early push to lynch you based on your role? Please, I know I haven't been scum often (Once ever) but two out of three scum making noise about a policy lynch would just really be bad play. Also, you think I'm scummy because I asked why I wasn't JK'd? Why? It was discussed yesterday that I was the best JK candidate. I asked to be a 'likely' JK target, but not definitely, to keep the scum guessing. I like to ask about people's reasons and motivations as it helps me to build cases.
Jason - For the last time. I was never saying we should definitely lynch kdowns based on the role. I was saying that this D1 need not start with RVS since we already have a person who is the best option to discuss. All things being equal, kdowns was the best lynch of yesterday, but all things did not stay equal for long. I didn't like kdowns responses, and I still don't. But ConS and MoI quickly became scummier to me. Please quote where I have said that no informed lynch can occur on D1. Because you are blatantly misrepping me.
Also, I never voted for MoI, so again, if you're making a page by page case on me, why include things that didn't happen?
Finally, lynching me today is dumb. Particularly if you have other suspects. Sure, if I'm the only possible lynch today, go for it, but if you wait for tomorrow, you'll have a confirmed town to replace me when I flip town.
Finally, Kondi, why did you copycat me? I was likely to either a) be killed, or b) be JK'd. I was a terrible target!
I'm going to get a little bit of work done and then come back to read and vote somebody.-
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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So you read that and then ignore the context?
The next bit after the bold reads "So a good place to start is". Not "So the only option is to lynch Hyde" What I was saying and what I said several times is that we should start with that discussion.
Also, did I get proved wrong? No, MoI got lynched and he was town. Now we have better evidence, but D1, as usual, was all gut reaction and vibe. Information was gained FROM it, but it was hardly the most informed lynch.
Any response to other misreps you've made of me?-
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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Okay, I can kinda see it on the Cons/MoI thing, except that I found Cons scummier and wanted MoI lynched day to so that if I was wrong, he would have had a more informed vengeful (turns out I didn't need to worry about that, MoI is great). That being said, if we had lynched Cons yesterday, I would have been first person the MoI wagon today (baring useful information from elsewhere)
On the kdown from, well I actually find his reaction scummy. You've definitely persuaded me part of the way out of that with your post, but I still don't like so much of what he's done. His reasons for me are terrible and seem opportunistic. I also wasn't using the policy lynch so much as a reaction guage as just a conversation starter, and it got pretty derailed early, which was fine because real conversation had started. I then will admit I kinda just faded out for a while, waiting for the lurkers and flakers, popping back in to clarify points now and then.-
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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So nothing about Quil's strange assumptions regarding mb53?
No, Magua's case on Quil is gone now, because I've never mentioned Quil and yet agree with Magua, and because Magua thinks you're scummy too.
Also, I don't voice all of my concerns all the time. I speak up when I need more information or when I'm pushing for a lynch.-
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Go on then, prove it.
The fact that you didn't realise you were the hammerer only highlights how likely you are to be the SK. The SK doesn't need to pay attention to the game, since everybody is the enemy.
Hell, have a look at toDay's posts. Jason posts with theories and reads, I post with results and accusation, you post to say you aren't scum and that if someone lynches you, they are scum. Your only interest is to stay alive. That's not town, that's not even Mafia always, but it IS 3rd pary behaviour.-
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Sigh, stupid ConS with his suddenly reasonable arguments. I still declare that I'm suspicious!
I agree that kdowns is unlikely 3rd scum. But at this point, scum and SK are exactly the same and we should hunt them both with equal fervour. This is what I think happened, and why I said that I think SK would hammer.
The first time he hammered, he aknowledged it with a "sorry". Showing that he knew it was the hammer, but he's never sufficiently explained why he hammered.
The second time he hammered, he didn't aknowledge it. I think he either didn't realise it was a hammer (because he wasn't playing attention and just wanted to throw down a vote) or knew it was a hammer, but hoped he could claim it was an accident (or, if he's really terribad, he just did it without a reason because he couldn't think of one).
Then he claimed he didn't realise he hammered, he didn't even realise it was his vote after the hammer! He's not even reading back over the last day to see who was responsible for the lynch of another town. This shows complete disinterest in the game, except that he's not flaking, he's always around and quick to jump in the moment his name is mentioned or even hinted at.
He's totally the SK and thus needs to die today.
Then there's the change from "I have proof that I'm not the SK" to "You'll never believe me, so I can't be bothered." Two things, 1) I can't kill you on my own, I need other people. Persuade them that you're town and I can't do anything. 2) What changed in 1.5 hours and one post from me that destroyed your "proof".
Vote kdowns
Also, no lynching is dumb.
P-EDIT: Ninja'd by the last ConS post. Sorry, what IceGuy case on you?-
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I really don't understand your scum case on me at all Jason.
Are you saying that because I'm scum, and now the only surviving member of my team, I picked farside since she's the most obv-town and would be considered town by most people anyway?
A couple of things wrong with that. That doesn't prove I'm scum at all, farside, me and 1 other person is town. I couldn't get myself so I had a 50% chance of getting farside!
Secondly, I didn't read farside as obv-town. I was actually worried that she was the SK, since she's taking a slightly lower profile here than usual. But she's not, she's town, so that's cool.
@ farside, I can think of a couple of reasons why you took JK. Most of them are great! It's what I would have chosen too.-
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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Let's review my game so far shall we?
I agree with Iam right off the bat and push his policy lynch case harder than he does.
I then agree with Magua's assessment of the game and vote based on one of his cases.
These are the two players I've agreed with and buddied up to more than anybody else in the game.
And I've done this with my two scum buddies?
Please. All this shows is that I'm a terrible town player and easily manipulated, but I'm not so bad as scum as to openly team up with my buddies!
Also, how does any of your case that you just posted link with your thoughts on me declaring Farside as town, I still don't understand that part of your case.-
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Seacore Mafia Scum
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I have.
So far in this game there have been two points against me.
My pushing of the D1 policy lynch.
My agreement with Magua of Quil being a good lynch.
In both of these cases I was agreeing with scum.
In the 2nd I was also lynching town.
If anything, this makes me LESS likely to be scum. I would have to be one of the worst scum players on the site to align myself with not one but both of my scum buddies.
I'm not one of the worst scum players on the site, I'm actually a pretty good one.
By calling me scum, you are suggesting that my first action this game was to make a lot of noise arguing for the consideration of a policy lynch based of role that a fellow scum buddy was also arguing for. This would have had the effect of placing a spotlight on not one but two scum. That would have been a terrible plan.
Then, on day 2, immediately after the 3rd scum makes a case and places a vote, I follow.
That is terrible terrible scum play, and I'm not that terrible.-
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I'm not sure we should play that game today.
I'm happy to be over-ruled in that, but we all agree kdowns is the SK, should we really hand the scum a complete blueprint of how tomorrow will go down, giving him the maximum information for chosing an NK?
Or should we hold off and discuss it tomorrow, after we lynch kdowns.
I've actually written a whole post about which of ConS and jason I think is scum, but then I deleted it before posting it because I'm not sure it's a good idea.
And I'll use WIFOM to show the flipside of a case that is based on my relationships with scum.
jason "look at all these links to confirmed scum, you must be scum too"
Seacore "Or maybe I wouldn't do that as scum, therefore your case doesn't hold water"
How me something scummy I've done that doesn't relate to me agreeing with scum. Then I'll start a defence that isn't WIFOM.-
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unvote
kdowns, no lynching is a bad idea.
With 3 town left, the two scum will try and hit town, because it gives them the best chance in the long run.
If we lynch, worst case scenario is that there will be 2 town left. In which case the scum need to be trying to hit each other with their NKs.
Best case scenario, we hit scum with our lynch, and there's 3/1, meaning 2/1 and lylo tomorrow.
All this assumes that Farside is not successful with her jailing, but I like to plan for the worse.
The point is, with two scum factions left, no lynching is a terrible idea. We can't let the two scum dictate what happens.
But you know that, you're scum.
So, please defend your no lynch policy or start discussing with us who we're going to kill.-
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While we're waiting for kdowns to actually contribute to this game instead of active lurking (hah!) and for ConS to show up and weigh in, I'll respond to this:
In post 390, jasonT1981 wrote:In post 384, Seacore wrote:
And I'll use WIFOM to show the flipside of a case that is based on my relationships with scum.
jason "look at all these links to confirmed scum, you must be scum too"
Seacore "Or maybe I wouldn't do that as scum, therefore your case doesn't hold water"
.
That is how you play the game though, you look for links between players. More later, don't have much time right now to post.
I agree that this is how the game should be played. Looking for links between flipped players is good.
My disagreement comes from the nature of that relationship and how you are interpreting it.
You're saying "Look how much he interacts with Magua, they do the same thing really quickly and it resulted in the lynch of a townie"
My response is "I don't find that to be evidence of scum." If Magua was town, then I could see evidence of me being scummy, since I leapt on the opportunity to lynch the JK the moment one was available. But to have all the remaining scum pile on a mislynch seems unlikely to me.
And that's largely the same argument that has been used on me for the Iam policy lynch thing as well. For me to be scum I would have had to blatantly ally myself with both of my scum buddies in a way that involved pushing to get a townie lynched. It's just too risky.
But I could accept that if there was anything else, anything at all, that suggested that I was scum. But there's nadda, I've been playing a town game.
A crap town game because I didn't have a scum read on Iam or Magua, but a town game none-the-less.
That being said, I'm going to feel vindicated when we get an SK flip on kdowns because I said his reaction felt scummy the moment I pushed the policy lynch.-
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I agree with your concerns.
I'd rather us not discuss it unless we've decided to not lynch kdowns today.
At the moment it seems that you, CS and I are all pro kdowns's lynch and jason thinks he's probably the SK but has a bigger scum reading of me.
That's pretty damn good consensus.
If we decide it's not as foregone as that, then we can start discussing the rest, but I don't want help either scum-jason or scum-CS in choosing who is a better kill target.
Also! I just thought of something. Help me think it through, because I may be missing something, but I think it would be a good idea to claim your target tonight.
If kdowns flips SK, there will only be one kill action tonight.
So, you declare who you're going to JK. If you die, that person is confirmed town, reducing our mylo to one of two, not one of three.
If kdowns doesn't flip SK, then you should feel free to disregard your claimed target, there will be two night kills and we can only hope that CS and jason target each other.-
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