#335 Road to Perdition - Finiretur (<- Over)

[Primate]

'sup TB, 'sup Wintergreen.

Vote ibaesha

'cuz her name begins with a vowel.

[Primate]

vote: raj

I <3 you but ... I must know

Why vote max for randomly voting for himself and not chaotic?

And so the game begins.

[Primate]

As for the situation at hand:

So far we've seen three people all greeting one another conspicuously (you will notice my "You've got to be kidding" followed the second of the three), and two self-voters.

We were all in the same newbie here (227) as our first game on 'scum.

And yeah, I'm probably being paranoid here, but how did you know what Wintergreen's sig was before she had posted?

[Primate]

Voting for someone being not useful = bad reason. Voting for someone being scum = good reason.

It is in scum's best intrest to be unuseful, so from this we can deduct that:
intentionally unuseful=scummy

What about someone like Babyjesus, Internet Stranger or yourself, are meta accepted styles of unhelpfulness the exception to this, you think?

[Primate]

'sup Masterchief, are you just stopping by, or are you really in this game?

I nearly lynched TB in the last game I was in with him for the exact reasons that you lot are thinking of lynching him now. All I can say is that his behaviour is consistent with how he behaved before, when he was town, but I've never seen him as scum, so I can't really defend his playstyle. This new style of pseudo-lurking that involves making posts too long for people to be bothered to read is new though.

Most of this is just as it comes to me from reading, there's too much stuff for me to be bothered making the post organised. Plus, it's been about a day and a half without sleep for me, so all this comes with the caveat that it might not make any sense at all.

TB, I would say that diverting a conversation is pretty much the same thing as quashing it, and you have admitted that you were diverting it. Then again, it was early game discussion and more theoretical than scum-searching, so I can understand your eagerness to get started on what you may perceive as hunting mafia.

Fosing lot's of people at once is not inherently scummy imho, but TB's over defensiveness seemed to kick in once and he treated it as if it was whilst defending his point, which interests me.

I, like TB, don't buy the 'voting for yourself' is scummy argument. It's against both sides interests do vote for themselves, so why pick out one over the other? Don't see why he didn't try and argue this instead of diverting the argument though.

Raj is a playa'

FosWintergreen

for getting on a packed wagon so casually.

TB seems like he's misrepresenting things in his eagerness to lynch, something I can't easily square with a pro-town player, even one of TB's overenthusiasm.

MiniFos Mackay

for being so balls to wall in his attack of TB.

Thesp: I don't see the 'appears to think they're townies' thing atm, I'll have another look in the morning.

In conclusion, if TB didn't have so many votes on him at the minute, I'd vote him. But he has. So I won't. It's too early to be lynching.

[Primate]

I nearly lynched TB in the last game I was in with him for the exact reasons that you lot are thinking of lynching him now.

Does he usually let slip that he thinks several people are pro-town?

You're also wishy-washy much on TB as a whole. Hmm...

I know I'm wishy-washy on the subject of TB, and it's really annoying me. He's a player that gives off 'noob' scum tells whilst town, and I know that referring to playstyle as an indicator is a really weak defense, but I felt it should be brought up, as it's a fairly major player in my opinion of him, at least.

Generalising specific tells to a particular player from a couple of games in which we're not even sure of his alignment in one is a bit silly in my opinion, but to answer your question, no he did not slip that he thought anyone was pro-town in the previous game. In contrast, he trusted absolutely no-one, and jumped on every little tell, enthusiastic to a fault.

The whole of the matter is that despite the tells and evidence presented against him, I am still not 100% convinced by TB's guilt. Now I'm not asking for anyone to try and convince me, as I have taken in all the evidence aboard, and am mulling it around, but before I make a move this early on day 1, I would like TB to do a bit more to convince me of his motives.

@ChaoticDiablo. You call the argument against TB weak? Why do you say that it's weak? I consider it rather strong. Plus, lots of people on a bandwagon != quicklynch. We'll lynch him when we're ready.

I, also, would like you to name some names when you make these sweeping accusations of an entire bandwagon. On top of the scumminess aspect, it makes it very difficult for anyone to defend or agree with your argument.

[Primate]

Connor, it would be appreciated if you posted something that contributed to the discussion, especially with so much to discuss.

You probably should try and make as few posts as possible as well, I know that you had four things to say, but theres no reason they couldn't have been in the same post.

[Primate]

TB, I'm sorry man. This is only a game, and if you want to walk away at any point, you don't even have to say so, we'll deal, we'll figure out something. You have bigger problems right now, and personally, I would expect for you to care about things that actually matter over something that is, despite the depth, only a game. Don't let anyone try and push you to replace if you feel you can carry on, but if you feel it's the right idea, then go for it. It's entirely your decision.

Personally, I think it would be a good idea for you to be replaced if you're not sure that you will be able to devote the proper time to the game, but it is your call.

I have some opinions on TB's claim as well, but I'll post them when I'm sober.

Ta-ra all.

[Primate]

Well, this is going to set our game behind a lot.

What an odd thing to say Masterchief.

Yes, you're right, it will set back this lynch. What a crying shame we won't be able to lynch this person as quickly as you obviously wanted to. Now we might have actually some discussion, perish the thought.

Waggles

Fos

at Masterchief.

[Primate]

Personally, I think TB's being a bit imaginitive with the truth in his claim.

Lynching him probably would be the best play for the minute. But if we decide to wait a bit for the replacement, or just for the Mod, I would quite like the extra time to discuss something else.

Specifically Wintergreen, who is sending my scumdar crazy. I'm not really a fan of giving the scum the oppurtunity to talk though, so I want to either put all my argument on this side of the night or the other side of the night. If we're gonna lynch TB though, then I'll wait.

[Primate]

Vote TB

I do think he's lying and I wouldn't wish on a replacement having to defend himself at this point.

Question: Would TB claim if he knew he was about to be replaced and was scum or would he let his replacement do it?

It's kind of moot anyway considering the mention of replacement came up afterwards, but I thought it would be an interesting point to bring up. I for one would leave the claim to my replacement.

[Primate]

KILLKILLKILLKILLKILL!!!!!

I'll put Thesp under the category of "Blood Thirsty".

That's what 'tings'll do to you.

Vote Wintergreen

[Primate]

1) Fifth vote on the wagon of a townie with no reason at all. No defense of why her vote is there throughout the entire wagon.

2) Waits more me to point out that his playstyle was very similar in the last game, and doesn't commit when I do point it out, despite it being true.

3)Comes out and claims vanilla townie in sympathy with TB. TB later turns out to be non-vanilla, failing to support her roleclaim.

4)When she comes out to 'play devils advocate' for TB, she doesn't unvote.

I need to spend some time thinking over the C_D thing though, but I'm much happier throwing my lot in with Wintergreen.

[Primate]

I don't understand, whats C_D?

Cincinatti Dolphins. So as not to appear biased, and to form a less predictable play, I effectively randomise all my mafia votes by co-ordinating them with the score record of this fine football team.

[Primate]

Well, stupid questions get stupid answers. Look at the playerlist.

[Primate]

sorry i been really busy but

vote: max

because it's summer holidays and he hates something other than his mum and dad

Start playing the fucking game or get replaced. Seriously, why are you even here if all you're going to do is waltz into the game once in a blue moon and post something that has fuck all to do with anything. Christ, even that ridiculous reason you put makes no sense, grammatically or otherwise.

[Primate]

This game has gone from generally entertaining and enthralling to fucktarded in less than 60 seconds. I hope the people who just speedlynched wintergreen realize just how much they screwed up this game.

Seriously, what game are you guys playing? It 'aint mafia.

[Primate]

What in gods name?

Anyone else think that we would likely have an inordinate amount of millers and investigation-immune townies, or do people think it's likely sanity that was the balancer?

I'm going to look over the thread for breadcrumbs now.

[Primate]

'K. Masterchief breadcrumbed no-one as mafia or town, except for maybe max as guilty, if you're

really

stretching. But nothing more. Thesp looks like he might have got a guilty on you, C_D, but it could have easily just been the train of thought he suggested, which was perfectly valid.

What are peoples opinions about a mass claim at this point? Assuming two mafia left, we're at LyLo. It would also give any remaining cops a chance to spill their results, which should help us to sort this mess out.

I'm not familiar with the film, but can anyone come up with a flavour-based reason why there would be so many cops? I might get it out and watch it today, just to see if it tells us anything more.

[Primate]

A vig/mason pair with confirmed innocence?

Unless anyone counter-claims vig, I guess we have to believe you. If it wasn't for the vig thing, I would think this was scum pulling a gambit for Lylo. But 'cause of the vig thing, I guess it can't be, if we don't have a counter-claim. Plus, you two don't seem like gambity players.

Are you guys sure that you both have confirmed innocence of each other? This many cops could be a way to balance a mason traitor.

Would like to hear why you think I'm scummiest though.

[Primate]

Would like to hear why you think I'm scummiest though.

last time I saw you play so townieish you were scum pulling a gambit

I have reason to think that the many millers/godfather thing is a lot more likely than the mason traitor thing, but just wanted to be sure you could properly confirm each other.

Max, what game are you talking about? Are you talking about someone else? I think this is the first game I've been in with you to your knowledge. (I am active on Wifom under a different name (spoon), but you wouldn't know that)

Also, the fact that you think I'm scum because I'm acting so townieish is a bit odd, to say the least. If it's just a gut feeling, say so, don't try and justify it.

[Primate]

*sigh*

Stop being stupid and get your votes off me please.

If the mafia come along now, they can put two votes on and win the game without even breaking a sweat.

You two acted retarded yesterday, don't do it again today please.

I genuinely don't know what to say to you two. You're not even playing the game. Max, do you remember that time you left me uncounterclaimed as a doc in an open set-up over on wifom, and

every

townie in the game hated you for it, and then you've never been taken seriously as a player on that site again? Don't let it happen again here.

If you think I'm scum,

say why

. I want to know if you two are actually thinking instead of just headbutting the keyboard.

[Primate]

my point is that unless you are 100% sure I am mafia, your vote shouldn't be on me. The mafia have yet to put there votes on, so whilst your asleep tonight, the mafia could put their votes on and just win the game there and then before we've actually had a chance to talk about anything.

So yeah, you should unvote. I don't care if you think me

worthy

of a vote, but you shouldn't actually have your vote on me at this point in time.

[Primate]

I genuinely don't know what to say to you two. You're not even playing the game. Max, do you remember that time you left me uncounterclaimed as a doc in an open set-up over on wifom, and every townie in the game hated you for it, and then you've never been taken seriously as a player on that site again? Don't let it happen again here.

I don't like this paragraph. Is this a threat or some sort of blackmail?

I'm trying to encourage him not be stupid about this whole deal. I'm trying to point out the benefits of playing using your brain. So far, his one action today has been to place a vote on me for looking

too townie

, and then his mason partner has followed completely blindly, handing the mafia an 'oops, I win' situation. To put it bluntly, I don't see how I can take him seriously as a player until he stops doing stuff like this. Look at yesterday, in which he hammahed a townie,

again

, whilst using no reason whatsoever. It just really rankles me.

[Primate]

gah. We have

all

the info we need right here, except that one crucial piece. We don't know whether, if max-connor isn't the mafia, the real mafia have a roleblocker to block max's vig. If we knew that, the very worst we could set up is a prisoners dilemma and at best an easy win.

I need to reread.

[Primate]

Max, Connor, do you have rolenames?

What's the flavour behind you two having mason-hood? And what's the flavour behind that vig?

Also, how would killing a townie prove you to innocent? The suspicion here is that you are a second mafia group. A second mafia group would have that kill, and you only incriminate yourself further. Don't know why you would possibly want to kill Bluemonick, either. He's pretty much the only person that I trust at the minute.

Also, if we lynch a townie, together with the mafia's kill, that means we go into day 3 with two townies vs two mafia and lose straightaway. You don't seem to get that. We're at Lylo

today

.

[Primate]

not with a roleblocker, hence my point.

And I repeat, do you have any flavour behind your masonry? Role names, reasoning for you being masons, that type of thing.

[Primate]

I request a prodding for everyone except me.

What, I just posted. There hasnt been much discussion since.

And, seriously I really am the Cop as stated in my last post, so we should work from there with those facts.

*sigh*

I'm a cop too. That makes 5. Anymore?

I'm not going to spill my results, because I don't really believe them. My PM suggests that if I do have a sanity, I am likely paranoid, but so far I have at least 1 innocent(raj). So I believe that the phrasing of my PM relates to the fact that we have a large amount of both millers and godfather-types, hence why I distrust my results. My other result

is

on a live player, but I don't want to say it until we mass-claim, which is something we might want to consider doing.

Seriously, though, if we do have anymore cops, they should probably come out.

[Primate]

The inference in my PM is that I am entirely trustwothy, but the people around me aren't. Bluemonick, say if this is the vibe you got from yours too.

Hence, I think I'm sane, but I think there will be a lot of millers/Godfather-types about.

More specifically, I think that our vig-masons may also be millers.

I am aware that this leaves a Coron-C_D scum.

[Primate]

Millers are innocents that turn up guilty to a cop investigation.

[Primate]

...I say that we lynch either Coron or Chaotic_Diablo. We have had two kills, and no-one has counter-claimed vig, which would have handed us an easy win, so we must assume that either Max and Connor are either a second mafia, or what they say they are.

If they are what they say they are, we lynch one, and they vig away the other. Bonuspunkte for us. We win.

If they are a second mafia, things get troublesome. The single-mafia is forced to shoot into the vig mafia in order to avert a loss. The vig mafia has 2 options.
1). They can shoot the other mafioso and lose the next day when they get lynched.
2)They can shoot either me or Bluemonick, leaving a prisoners dilemma between the remaining 4. We try and wangle a 3-way draw out of the stalemate.

Now a question. 5 cops. Bluemonicks agreement suggests our PM's are similar in focus and emphasis, and by association, our roles in flavour. So, how do we balance this? How about a 2-man mason miller group with a vig that will make the town miss at least one of lynches, maybe two. Now this is pretty damn powerful, even with the millerhood. So, I reckon that all the mafia, except maybe one, are immune to investigation. I know this sounds odd, but we had 5 cops for god's sake, this is an odd game. I'm just spilling my thoughts ATM. Tell me what you think.

I'll watch the film later, see how flavourful all this is.

[Primate]

If Max and connor are the second mafia, would that imply that the other scum group would also be a two member scum group? If that's the case, Max and connor would win if we manage to lynch ibaesha's partner. In addition, townies are usually put into the game in bundles of three. Since we have two dead townies, we should have another. This brings me to: 4 scum, 5 cops, 3 townies.

I thought about this. This is why, If there is only a single mafioso left in ibby's group, he should claim. If he doesn't then he stands to randomly lose when he could get piece of that draw.

So yeah, single mafia, are yooooooo oooooooouuuuuut theeeeeerreeeeeee?

[Primate]

Wow, this is easy. No claim from mafia. Hence max and connor are likely innocent. SCORE!

vote Chaotic_Diablo

Scum. Scum. Scum. Scum. Scum. Scum. Scum. Scum.

[Primate]

Oh, I was wondering, is Max really claiming to be part of a mason group with me?

Because I'm not. My role PM said that I am max's son, and that I "win when the killing is over."

*Head Explodes*

Ok, then why did connor claim to have confirmed innocence of max?

...

Mod

Can you check IP's, on this site? Had Max set up an artificial mason group?

'Cause if not, something is even more out of whack than normal.

[Primate]

What reasons? I'm just whacking Coron into line. I don't nessisarily think he is scum.

If I wasn't your son I'd be voting you right now.

Get a hold of yourself.

Oops, forget all of this; I confused max and bluemonic.


Vote away blue.

Nah. I am skeptical of him being scum, mostly for his, y'know, consistently pro-town behaviour. Did you miss Mackays superb pro-townness when you were re-reading? Blue's been bumbling, but he's not scum.

I get increasingly sure of the C_D-Coron group though. Seriously, Rathyr, look to see how it is supported.

[Primate]

Yes we are at lylo, however we can no lynch if we want. I must point out that I consider no-lynch a very viable option at this point, but I still don't think it's optimal. We can't bargain for a draw in a prisoners.

[Primate]

....

You

have a reason to believe two scum groups?

Either you two are scum, or there's a C_D-Coron-Ibeasha scumgroup.

[Primate]

And what if the scum are really you and blue, and Coron's just a fool?

This is one of the things that makes me think C_D is a better lynch than Coron, even assuming they're both scum.

You are the first person to bring up the extremely likely possiblity that I could be lying about a Cop. Coron and C_D both believed me and Blue implicity without even questioning what was going on. All day they've not been hunting amongst the remaining townies, they've been trying to get us to lynch you two. C_D's first reaction on hearing about masons was to paint you as a killing group. Note that I'm not saying you two couldn't be a scum group, but I think that if you two are, the best play is to lynch C_D. Also, if you aren't, the best play is to lynch C_D.

The reason I believe you has to do with two things. Firstly, the fact that there's so many cops implies a major drawback to the town. I think that miller-townies'd do that. Also, max's breadcrumb of vig on dawn 2 was nice, as was the fact that you claimed in the way you did.

[Primate]

Yes, you should have; now start posting!

And please, use proper English. Use the Google spell checker if you have to.

Do you think he's scum?

Seriously, he's the guy you replaced.

I infinitely prefer you.

[Primate]

Look at what I posted earlier. All of it applies double to Connor than Max. I just can't stand people who don't even try to make sense. Even an 8-year old would make more sense than connor if he actually tried.

[Primate]

Everyone! Listen to me!

I want all of us to do a complete role claim, complete with any inside information we may have, aka cop investigations.

I'm giving everyone 36 hours to comply.

Lurkers will be lynched.

Cop

My results are useless, I'm not going to have them warp the towns POV.

[Primate]

Why? They're useless.

Suffice to say I have an innocent on either Coron or C_D. I still believe them both to be mafia.

[Primate]

Innocent on C_D, but you better have a damn good reason.

[Primate]

One word: Why?

Do as you see fit, I still want to know why though.

This isn't a trap or anything.

It's been a while since I've claimed. I'm interested in what they have to say.

I'm skeptical. As in, I point blank don't believe you. Do you have any flavour to go along with your role?

Also, how do you explain this,

In addition, townies are usually put into the game in bundles of three. Since we have two dead townies, we should have another. This brings me to: 4 scum, 5 cops, 3 townies.

A post in which, *at what could be lylo* you very heavily hinted vanillia.

The Thesp thing seems just fluff in order to make your story more believable.

[Primate]

In addition, townies are usually put into the game in bundles of three. Since we have two dead townies, we should have another. This brings me to: 4 scum, 5 cops, 3 townies.

If there were 4 scum that means we would all be dead in endgame

vote: C_D

This guys too stupid to lie.

C_D Bandwagon HO!

[Primate]

So we lynch coron as he's not helping then if he's scum we kill C_D if town we kill you

Ok. Follow this plan, and as long as there aren't scum in the masons, we'll get at least one scum guaranteed, probably two.

Vote Coron

Lets see where this takes then. *fingers crossed*

[Primate]

*takes

us

then. Gah

[Primate]

Max: I want you to kill C_D tonight, because if he is telling the truth he will stay alive, but if he isn't he will be dead. Both of those are good.

Docs can't protect themselves. This is an established rule of the game, similar to Godfathers being immune to investigation.

[Primate]

I thought you two were masons? Shouldn't you talk this kind of stuff over via PM?

If it were me though, I'd take out C_D if coron

is

scum. If he isn't I'd have to sit down and think about it for a long while, but I'd probably still vig C_D.

[Primate]

I thought you two were masons? Shouldn't you talk this kind of stuff over via PM?

If it were me though, I'd take out C_D if coron

is

scum. If he isn't I'd have to sit down and think about it for a long while, but I'd probably still vig C_D.

Aren't we only allowed to PM eachother at night?

What is the rule on this, Mod?

This is normally the case, but I would have thought you'd want to make the big decisions like this after you figure out what Coron's alignment is for 100% certain. As Max sends his vig off at night, you still have time for discussion then.

@C_D:- So you're basically admitting that you claimed Doc not to get your ass lynched, after very heavily hinting you are vanilla earlier?

VIG C_D HE IS LYING OUT OF HIS ASS

[Primate]

Why not just lynch him?

Unvote: Coron

Vote: C_D

We already hammahed Coron.

Meh, just vig him. if you can.

[Primate]

Coron,

Max is a mason.

Psst. He's implying that you two are scum, not masons.

I just hope to the sweet mother mercy of the lord himself that the mafia have no roleblocker. That would be a kick in the balls worthy of cantona himself.

[Primate]

He did, he killed blue.

This quite blatantly a bluff by C_D in order to explain his doc-dom. Obv.

[Primate]

Oh, you mean max and the scum attacked bluemonic?

Nah, I mean the mafia no-killed but I guess stuff will happen soon. Haven't got my investigation result yet. i targetted you, btw.

[Primate]

bluffbluffbluff.

Nevertheless, I do think it's weird we're still playing.

still waiting for result.

@Rathyr. Are you super-amazingly-uber-fantastically sure that you two have mod-confirmed innocence?

[Primate]

Well, Rathyr's not mafia, totally discounting my 'miller masons' theory. Maybe I am naive. which would suck.

[Primate]

Primate, if you believed that I bluffed, then why didn't you wait until I actually revealed who I protected first instead of yelling bluff? Although I'm quite sure that you would still believe it's a bluff, it's pretty much a vain act if you can't prove the credibility.
Let's hear from Max.

I believed the bluff was a no-kill one. I didn't see that blue had been targetted twice.

[Primate]

This is day is pactically one-sided in favor of the masonry. When you suggested to zu_faul that the game should be over, I interpreted as scum trying to tell zu_faul that there is no way you could lose.

Still, something is strange. Even if you were a scum group with max, you would have won the game. However, it goes the same way if I were with Primate. In addition, don't you think the game would be highly unbalanced with only two scum members and 2/5 useful cops? There has to be some kind of twist.

Yeah, this was why I was harping over the confirmed innocent thing. Both max and Rathyr know each other to be innocent, and I don't think both of them are scum together, so with me being innocent, I pretty much know you're scum. But two scum against a town with perks? I don't buy it. Something smells funny.

Also, I read it that way as well. Scum asking why they hadn't won, that is. But then where's the vig?

SK in the scum? Now that

would

be amusing.

[Primate]

Heres the deal guys. I go on holiday for a week, starting in about half a day. I hate to do this, but whether we've lost or whether we've won, it's unfair to keep you guys waiting or for someone to replace in at this point. Also, C_D genuinely is my first suspect for scum, so it's not like this isn't premeditated.

Vote Chaotic Diablo

If we don't win after this, I dunno what's going on. But then again, I don't at the minute, so bugger it.

[Primate]

*sigh*

If C_D is town, he's a vig who thinks he's a doc. Odd thought that.

[Primate]

whoo.

We should have got C_D the day before. I was sure there was something else.

We didn't deserve to win. We did get C_D's scumminess early, but we lucked out on a vig, and we fouled up three lynches. Silly.