20th-Century Philosophy Mafia (Mini 1388) Game Over

[Xisiqomelir]

Hello everyone! First, My normal PSA: I post in GMT+8 (ASEAN/China time), so I may be a little off-sync from everyone else.

Though it's mostly in ongoings or recently-finished games, I have direct experience with three players here:

shos

: Generally posts senselessly regardless of his alignment, but he's actually willing to be aggressive as town. Dunhamganger, your read here is off.

inte

: Seems to be exactly the town inte I saw before.

qwints

: Has been off-site for an extended period, somewhere around three years or so. He was completely unaware of recent scumhunting technique in the [ongoing] as well. Probably town.

And I've extensively read the meta of two:

GreyICE

: I have completely read Mini's 1364 (Switchboard), 1254 (The Lurconis/Yosarian story), Buffy, Voyager, Brotherhood of the Wolf, Mafia behind the Maiden, NGE, Mayo Clinic and the just-completed Dirty Dealing. I'm pretty sure (77%?) that this is town-Grey. (I do have bad news for you though, you/leafsnail is highly reminiscent of you/kast from NGE....so he's probably town as well).

MagnaOfIllusion

: I have completely read MLP: Redemption, Mini 1349 (Words with scum), Return to Boring Town, Stars Aligned 3, the games you played with GreyICE listed above, and I'm reading several of your ongoings (including this one). As town and scum alike you make factual statements and construct logical, persuasive posts, and lean heavily on weak players and poor posters. Alignment unknown.

For an opening vote, I think this should be worthwhile. Active lurk is almost always malicious.

VOTE: Mr_Ree

I am not opposed to a name claim, and I am Clarence Irving Lewis, father of Strict Implication.

[Xisiqomelir]

Dunhamganger, your read here is off.

Thanks for joining us.

Thank you, if that was sincere.

If it was insincere, and you're trying to make a sarcastic allusion to me not reading the votecounts, I'll note that although you've retracted the specific rolefishing allegation, you haven't actually rescinded your #137.

Explicitly then: is shos town or scum?

[Xisiqomelir]

OH! WONDERFUL!! Xis is town. his 'normal PSA' - he doesn't do that when he replaces in as scum. I just finished a game with him (CAH) where he was scum and replaced in. so yay!

Much as I would enjoy having my townliness confirmed this way:

1) That would be fairly absurd meta for anyone to have.
2) Your specific example is wholly inaccurate.

I would prefer that my point 2 ended in "grossly untruthful" and a vote on you, but I have come to sadly accept that not everything can go the way I wish.

hey Xis, can you link me to MOI's completed scum games?

He has a fairly up-to-date and well-organized wiki button right under his avatar?

@Dunhamganger:

Please answer my question.

[Xisiqomelir]

@Dunhamganger:

Please answer my question.

The loaded one about shos being town or scum? nty

Noted.

shos: Generally posts senselessly regardless of his alignment, but he's actually willing to be aggressive as town. Dunhamganger, your read here is off.

How is this a reasonable conclusion at all. Shos is being far from aggressive. If postinging ‘senselessly’ is a Null tell for him why are you so sure Dun’s read (which he dropped like hot lava, BTW) was incorrect?

He's voting inte, who isn't currently voting him. Normally, all he does is OMGUS people who vote him first. Trust me when I say it's a deep strain on my definition of "aggression" to accommodate that, but that's how I read the play at the moment.

I would prefer that my point 2 ended in "grossly untruthful" and a vote on you, but I have come to sadly accept that not everything can go the way I wish.

Well given the link you provided you seem to be thinking shos could be buddying up to you as Scum for fabricated reasons. Why is that not vote worthy in your eyes?

Because in the same linked game he was town and made the highly pro-town actions of:
-expressing a desire to lynch claimed town before scum
-openly setup speculating
-scumslipping glee over town mislynching

and, specific to this piece of misbehaviour:

-claimed to have made a comprehensive case....but didn't actually make the post

So, since he can be amnesiac over his own posts, I'm unsurprised that he's forgetful of mine.

I'm not about to entirely deactivate my critical thinking faculties just because of shos' standard of play though, I can assure you that the "oh it's shos being shos" pass expires at the end of D1.

@Xis: This is not me and Kast. Leaf is ACTING SCUMMY. Look over his posts, seriously, what makes you so sure he's town?

Well, I think it would have been funny if you guys had lynched Kast instead of getting that lucky modkill (and seriously, I would have too after his D1 Magi fishing followed by the Candlejack recruit), so let me re-read this.

But the Mr_Ree vote is EXCELLENT.

*hat-tip*

Wait a second, Asocmist

didn't

prod Mr. Ree in post 157. WTF MOI?

Prodded MacDougall and FourTrouble.

Interesting.

[Xisiqomelir]

EBWOP: Second line should be "was voting inte".

[Xisiqomelir]

Mr_Ree, is your vote on scum?

[Xisiqomelir]

I can assume, based on the way this game has panned out, that ALL TRACES OF SUSPICION HAVE EVAPORATED from Mr_Ree's mind concerning Benmage?

This is an excellent question, and you should put it to him directly instead of using it as part of your woe-is-me oratory.

- THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO SPEAK IN CERTAINTIES ARE SCUM BECAUSE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO KNOW WITH CERTAINTY ABOUT THE ALIGNMENT OF PEOPLE ARE SCUM.

Oh you were afraid I'd take your answer to be a scumtell. I'm sorry, I didn't know the question was so intense. Here, let me tone it down:

"Is shos more likely to be town, or more likely to be scum?"

Can you answer that one?

[Xisiqomelir]

This is an excellent question, and you should put it to him directly instead of using it as part of your woe-is-me oratory.

It is not an excellent question. It was not even a question. The idea that unvoting somebody to vote for somebody else means that you are entirely abandoning being suspicious of the person you unvoted is patently absurd.

Clarification is always good to have in the game, since town (at least) wins more easily the lower the general level of ambiguity is.

I suppose I can thank you for answering your permutation of my amended version of the initial question.

Mr_Ree: I find your response of jumping to the lead wagon after I asked you #269 to be disturbing. I have a gnawing suspicion that you're trying to escape notice.

[Xisiqomelir]

He's voting inte, who isn't currently voting him.

Normally, all he does is OMGUS people who vote him first.

Trust me when I say it's a deep strain on my definition of "aggression" to accommodate that, but that's how I read the play at the moment.

Are you saying normally as scum he does that in the bolded?

Shos OMGUSes as both alignments, but as town he's willing to explore other possibilities.

With a three-week deadline I'd like much more Dayplay before anyone hammers Dunhamganger.

[Xisiqomelir]

If I had to call a shot for scumteam right now it's inte, Leafsnail, and either Benmage or Mr_Ree.

Yet the one you're voting has just you on his wagon, and many people consider him town.

And the wagon which has two votes on it you are ignoring, I suppose because it's a "boring, bad vote"?

Can you tell me more about Leafsnail-scum, because GreyICE has said the same thing and I'm finding it hard to see.

[Xisiqomelir]

Wow, that's probably your first attempt to push your wagon Xis.

Well, Mr_Ree, you still haven't responded to my #287. I was thinking you might eventually get around to it, but since all four of your responses since then skirted the subject very carefully, I suppose I'll have to bring it up again.

When I asked you if you were voting scum, this was your reply:

@Xis, yeah. I think so. I would have switched to Dunham a while ago but since both Ben and Grey seem to have such a problem with my current vote, I decided to leave it there until Ben either returns or gets replaced.

Which was then followed by a hop to the lead wagon near the top of the next page. When people respond to queries about their vote by quick-hopping to the lead wagon, I immediately think of scum trying to escape notice by blending into the majority consensus.

While we're on the subject of your votes, now that Dunhamganger has claimed, why are you still voting him? Is the claim false in your opinion?

I'd forgotten who you were voting for altogether.

Careful there, I live and breathe LaL in this game.

Tell me something, since you originally voted me because you thought I was "lurking", what are your current thoughts on Shadow and fourtrouble?

"Active lurking", Mr_Ree.

Shadow could well be scum since his contributions are insignificant and unoriginal, as well as intermittent.

fourtrouble is not playing this game.

Since we're on the subject,

seeing as how I now have double or triple the amount of posts you do

, do you still feel that I'm actively lurking?

Yes.

Is the bolded an insinuation that your pro-town contributions have greatly outstripped my own?

[Xisiqomelir]

@Dunhamganger

:

I will concede point 1.

@Mr_Ree

:

Sigh... you know I can't quote all that from a phone..

Non-alignment-of-players related, are you going to make any replies on a computer? Because there are wallers in this game.

I'm hardly attempting to blend in.

I disagree. You've lurked out most of the game and you're only springing to life now that there's a wagon on you.

Was it my serial killer post that gave you that impression?

I'm actually not a believer in the "first 5 pages are top 5 indicative pages" theory. I have no objections to that post.

Now that Dunham has claimed, I'm looking for scum. Anyone who hammers now is lynch-bait.

But you'd risk losing a town PR D1 just to pick up a scumspect? I don't consider that pro-town.

That wasn't a lie.

I'm finding that hard to believe since there are multiple others on this wagon.

Was "active" actually established?

It was asserted and you denied it. I'll consider it invalidated and retract the accusation when there's evidence to the contrary.

Fourtrouble IS playing the game and is currently not being replaced at this time. So again, what are your thoughts on him?

FourTrouble is not playing this game in the least. Look at his most recent post and vote, they are actually total non-contributions. Shadow was showing signs of reading the thread and purposely drawing no deductions, so I considered him scummier.

Don't you have to..you know..lurk to be an active Lurker? I personally think so.

I agree. I also disagree with the implication that you weren't

And finally, yes. So far as I see it, you've been voting town all game while trying to stay hidden.

You're going to have to sell me on your towniness with more than that, Mr_Ree.

and your newer posts:

Xis is still in my sights. I'm curious how he's going to approach fourtrouble and how he forgot four was playing. Even though Aco said on that same page that four wasn't being replaced.

It's idiomatic rather than literal. Here's the previously-discussed NGE mafia. Kawaii was town dayvig and didn't die until N3, but I consider him not to have been playing that game. D3 ended on page 46 and this is Kawaii's ISO

Interesting. Your name was called and here you come, conveniently jumping on the largest wagon.

Anything to say about this Grey? Xis?

The difference is that I specifically addressed your voting, not simply your absence. You reacted to that by hopping to Dunhamganger. When I pointed out that I considered that scummy, you apparently reacted to that and then double-hopped on page 14.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't object to FourTrouble (or shos, or the pre-replacement Shadow slot) dying, but your meta indicates that you're capable of a much higher standard of performance, but you're not playing up to it. When players are playing noticeably below their typical level of skill (your sig rats you out here), I consider that worthy of suspicion.

[Xisiqomelir]

I'm at L-1? I am Ludwig Wittgenstein,

my role is Vanilla Townie

.

This is not a reason to stop a lynch.

I'm just testing the validity of people's cases before I tear them all down and pick out scum. It's a common theme in my games.

This absolutely would be though, so I look forward to it.

Three others know my alignment.

...what?

And I will second this request for clarification.

[Xisiqomelir]

Scum:

BenMage: Awkward posting that's attempting poorly to fit in and falling on it's face. I will need to look up the meta from his previous games but from what I have here- he is mafia.

Scum

FourTrouble: I will excuse the fact that he is hardly contributing - the problem is that his confidence and the rare content that he does provide are very curious. He jumps on the Ree wagon while sheeping a popular reason that has already been stated and pretending it's his own original thought (forgive me but i do not recall where it was stated).

Mild scum

I don't have the time to do any more but

hopefully tomorrow I can figure out who I want to vote

- I don't think I'm in support of the Mr Ree wagon, however.

FourTrouble/BenMage are both excellent alternatives

[Xisiqomelir]

First of all, I would like to admit that I was deeply feeling MoI-scum yesterday. Many people made hay out of Dunhamganger's #224

@Dunhamganger:

Please answer my question.

The loaded one about shos being town or scum? nty

Which was a pretty big softball in terms of scumminess, but I thought Magna's attack and push was the most opportunistic by far. I didn't mention anything about it at the time because I know MoI-scum is very precise with his NKs, so I was getting ready to tussle D2.

I'm pretty sure we have the following as viable scumpools:

-{inte,shos} 1 scum
-

Dunhamganger - 6 - Voting: MagnaofIllusion, Leafsnail, qwints, Mr_Ree, Benmage, shos

1 scum
- {

Shadow Dancer

projectmatt, FourTrouble, Benmage} 1 scum

The obvious conclusion here is that one of the 2 pool posters should be the lynch, but I'd like to try the slightly less-obvious option to start.

VOTE: projectmatt

absta101 inherits my townread on GreyICE for now.

[Xisiqomelir]

Prod received.

I still want to lynch Pmatt, mostly for Shadow's play, and a little for the continued non-voting, but I guess only Benmage cares.

Re: shos/inte, if shos' claim is verifiable then inte's probably scum. Actually, I'm willing to explore this area.

UNVOTE: projectmatt
VOTE: shos

Anyone who speedhammers this is probably scum. Claim please.

[Xisiqomelir]

Alright. I'm a vig. I've been sorta crumbing this in many places in a way, all the vigbait stuff etc etc. and as I said, there is no reason at all imo for a vig and a bodyguard to exist as town together; if there are two kills per night, the odds of the bodyguard dying N1 is 2/9 +2/11 which is about 40% so didn't think that was logical and shot dunham.

So...you shot a claimed town protective role. When he was a 1-shot sacrificial role, and would have died to the scumshot when he succeeded in protecting.

....

...

Before I move this vote, let's hear what your target list for tonight is.

[Xisiqomelir]

That's what I'd thought you claim. I don't believe you. We should still lynch shos.

I disagree. We should:

1) Hear who he was planning on shooting tonight
2) Substitute shos' target with a logical one
3) Lynch somebody else today, and then shos tomorrow if tonight does not work out to be pro-town

We can probably skip step 1 actually.

[Xisiqomelir]

Just in case scumteam gets cute:

UNVOTE: shos
VOTE: projectmatt

[Xisiqomelir]

@absta101

:

I nominate Inte/Fourtrouble.
What do [you] think?

I think that's an excellent vigpool.

@shos

:

I'm okay with town directing my kills if you wish. first time I'm playing vig.

Good, because your first shot was ridiculous.

@Leafsnail

:

Alright. I'm a vig. I've been sorta crumbing this in many places in a way, all the vigbait stuff etc etc. and as I said, there is no reason at all imo for a vig and a bodyguard to exist as town together; if there are two kills per night, the odds of the bodyguard dying N1 is 2/9 +2/11 which is about 40% so didn't think that was logical and shot dunham.

This is unbelievably stupid. How could you be this stupid. I refuse to believe you're this stupid.

Welcome to the nightmare.

@qwints

: I'm starting to be a little concerned about you. Your townposts are normally much more analytical than this. In the hypothetical case of shos actually being townvig and inte being scum, how do your reads pan out?

[Xisiqomelir]

Ninja:

UNVOTE: projectmatt

You obviously can singlevote, so why no singlevote yesterday?

[Xisiqomelir]

So you single and it works out as a double?

These claims are shrinking my lynchpool. GreyICE/Benmage from page 1 looked like town/town RVS fun and games, so I'm not lynching absta or Benmage. I could happily have gone for either you or shos but you both claimed. Leafsnail I'm leaning town on despite GreyICE and Dunhamganger's cases. Should we ever see an absta scumflip that will solidify my opinion there. qwints I'm a little concerned about per #528, but only a little.

I guess I'm down to inte/FourTrouble. Fourtrouble still isn't playing the game, and inte's D2 is less town than his D1, so I'll vote appropriately.

VOTE: inte

PEdit:

@shos

: I've learned that lynching you tomorrow should you mysteriously survive tonight will be a good idea. That's surely "something"!

[Xisiqomelir]

oh wow that is wonderful info! -_-; you guys are being silly, why would an SK shoot a claimed BG. seriously. this is no wifom.

Why would an SK shoot a protective town PR? Is this a serious question?

if we lynch Inte today, who should I shoot? Fourtrouble?

A pool is probably better than a single candidate in case scumteam has protective roles too. Fourtrouble definitely belongs in it, and you should VCA off inte's flip for the #2.

[Xisiqomelir]

A pool is probably better than a single candidate in case scumteam has protective roles too. Fourtrouble definitely belongs in it, and you should VCA off inte's flip for the #2.

I don't like this because it gives an SK a carte blanche to shoot pretty much whoever he likes ("Huh, sorry, I thought Xis' early voting of inte was really suspicious!"). shos is only worth keeping alive if we can keep him to a pool of named people.

You are correct, and shos also cannot be trusted to VCA correctly.

I'm thinking this is a good decision tree: "If inte flips scum, shoot Antihero or pmatt. If he flips town, Antihero or qwints".

Thoughts?

[Xisiqomelir]

How about if antihero flips scum shoot anyone but me but if he flips town shoot anyone but me.

I don't like how the pretense is me being lynched when all I've done all game is call people out on their shit

You've actually mostly done nothing. There's also the fact that two flipped town were happy to go for you for exactly that reason:

willing to 1v1 (this may be a lie depending on his flip)

i'm voting him because i feel like he is scum

facts are for those who ignore their instincts

Again for the record – at any time going forward I will vote for inte when he becomes a top wagon. Furc / DMSIS level VIs annoy me and generally hurt Town. Hell, he might even turn out to be scum..

AND HERE'S WHY:

I posted my reasons why I thought shos's early game play was scummy. inte, instead of offering any kind of opinion on that case, simply said that

the manner in which I posted my reasons was scummy

because I did not quote the posts I was referring to. So, instead of reading the game, or asking me to quote the posts, he simply made a

vague, blanket statement meant to imply that he was suspicious of me without actually saying it

.

So, no, you haven't been doing that much this game.

what the fuck Xis why would you want to shoot pjmatt

Because when I think "Town DV" I think of things like this

Town DVs are, in my mind, happy to lynch, not worried about how they place their votes or how their votes are perceived. Note that he drops from the pool if you flip town, because that will show that I've been reading everything wrong.

@Antihero

: If tonight passes and neither projectmatt nor shos die, should either of them be lynched tomorrow?

[Xisiqomelir]

Can I get a modfix for that double-post? Thanks Acos!

[Xisiqomelir]

Why would we lynch project????!!

Aside from the town example of DV behaviour I gave (and you played in) and the fact that I don't actually want him lynched currently, no reason.

@Xis - We shouldn't kill project. Doesn't the whole not-voting thing make him obv town to you?

It does not. I'm willing to accept the possibility that he might be town, though. If projectmatt's alignment is ever conclusively proved to be town, that means I'll have to start questioning my townreads on both Benmage and GreyICE/you.

@Antihero

: Noted

@Leafsnail

: Fill in the blanks for me here: "Benmage town = ________scum"

[Xisiqomelir]

Qwints' claim is intriguing. I'll need a moment to puzzle it out.

Still not sold on a shos lynch today.

[Xisiqomelir]

@Mod

: New VC please.

@qwints

: Should you flip as claimed, who should we lynch off your wagon?

[Xisiqomelir]

Disturbingly many of my games are featuring these trollhammers.

Twilight thoughts: A living shos tomorrow is going to be highly questionable, and likely to be voted right off the bat by me. A dead town-vig shos is an inte lynch without question. I'm saddened by the fact that I can't be supremely decisive about how qwints will flip. I do want to say town, but his D2 is very different from the town qwints I know.

[Xisiqomelir]

Well done scumteam!