inbetweeners mafia Game Over - Bully for you!

[Mr_Ree]

vote Lanthir

Gonna have to read up on furcolo... For now, lanthir is as good a choice as any.

[Mr_Ree]

Thanks xis I'll check it out.

[Mr_Ree]

Pssshht. Yeah right, do you honestly think I have the time to read that whole list? I am interested in checking out that perfect game though. They are rare and hard to come by.

[Mr_Ree]

unvote, vote Xis

So, just so we're aware, why do we want to lynch someone before they even confirm?

[Mr_Ree]

Yeah. I have been reading.

"If Mafia was a vote for president, I would win everytime."-Furcolow

If he's this easy to catch as scum, what are you so afraid of? I haven't been reading his town games yet but if he's as easy to read as some people suggest, I have no problem giving him the benefit of the doubt.

[Mr_Ree]

Or the very least, the benefit of posting.

[Mr_Ree]

@Sotty I just mentioned it offhand and I did in fact look into his playstyle. He's nowhere near as bad as some players on site. Look into Buldermar. That's a policy Lynch!

[Mr_Ree]

And why is that exactly?

What are your thoughts on Xis? A Lynch before confirmation does nothing but potentially eliminate two townies. I can almost see his reasoning now that furcolow has made him first post. For that matter, what are your thoughts on Jarvis? Zhang has brought up some good points. It sucks that he didn't link or quote the posts but he's making the effort which is more than I can say for you.

[Mr_Ree]

Sorry guys, I'll try to get a post in tonight. Have to read up again and a do a bunch of work winterproofing my Girlfriends's place. Will be back ASAP.

[Mr_Ree]

Sorry I've been AWOL guys, big post incoming ASAP.

[Mr_Ree]

@Peregrine you say it was obvious that Lanthir was probably town but you didn't even decide that yourself until post 40. I also don't see why that was even brought up. Such an early vote means absolutely nothing and was placed on him simply for being the first one to call someone a moron.

As for Furc, I read some of his games of both alignments. I understand the distaste. Am I an expert on Furc? Hell no, nor would I want to be. Can I take a guess as to his alignment? Null leaning town. There are others that are higher on my list. I'm still a little suspicious of Xis but admittedly less so. I'm thinking scum lies somewhere between Jarvis and Thad but I'm leaning more Jarvis that Thad, although I did notice some connections between the two. For some reason Peregrine is pinging me but I'm not sure if it's because of the vote on me or if it's because of the inconsistency surrounding his thoughts on Lanthir

[Mr_Ree]

Phoneposting so bear with me.

We stand to gain the most information from Jarvis so my vote goes there. Twice this game he has stated that he would Lynch players regardless of alignment simply for distaste of the player. As new arguments come up I'm sure you'll develop a distaste towards more players.

vote Jarvis

[Mr_Ree]

OOps, sorry! I remembered I wanted to ask Mr Rhee what his previous experience with mafia is.

13 20+ player themed games on Manga Stream
7 20+ player themed games on bt forums
6 Completed games on site. All are factored into my win ratio. I came here for more knowledge of theory and gameplay. I find the player quality higher here as well.

I'll answer you in a few minutes MOI. I'm just making dinner.

[Mr_Ree]

unvote

vote: mr_ree

#305

This is exactly the type of post that gave me the distaste mentioned in 305. What did I post in 305 that caused the vote switch? Do you still think xis is scummy?

[Mr_Ree]

I'm writing it out now. I had to borrow my friend's computer so I could actually quote my points. It was just taking WAY too long on my phone.

if anyone posts from an android and knows how to scroll down in the text box once it's full, please PM me

@Fonz If you are really looking into insight on my meta, check out the end of "cute mafia" for my overall game strategy and newbie 1298 for how i use it. You can basically see that straategy in all my games.

P-Edit: or you could just vote me... lol. You do realize the hypocracy don't you? Were you not defending Thad because this was his first time using that particular reason for voting?

[Mr_Ree]

That was the impression I got anyway, I guess I'll have to have another look after I'm done with Jarvis. Why were you defending him then?

[Mr_Ree]

I'd be glad to offer evidence as I KNOW I have several sources to draw from. Do I believe in wagoning/lynching for information? Hell yes. I'm sure if you go back to 1298 you can see that your interpretation of my reasoning for wanting a wagon on Fe was flawed. I WANTED information. More so, I wanted a claim.

[Mr_Ree]

Here is the reasoning behind my vote:

Oh wow even I know who Furcolow is. And I want to join on that.

Moron

You can't try to steer the town on Page 1. I don't know you, I don't know how good you are, but I don't know why people would follow you.

But then I want to vote this.

Vote: Lanthir

PV, did I pick right?

Very first post, he shows support for the furc wagon while not getting on it. Instead he votes Lanthir and asks Peregrine if he picked right. Right away, ties to PV. The scummiest thing in here: he is supporting both lead wagons.

That's a pretty neato case. Be cool if I'd made it.

Unvote; Vote: ThAdmiral

I'm pretty unimpressed by no comment on it otherwise. I mean yeah okay Fonz promised more, but Mr Ree, Zang? Why do you feel no need to comment on pretty much the first case of the game?

Pedit: Ok Fonz can go on that list too. And to answer, I guess great minds, eh? Why should I be so hipst3r as to not vote with other people? Not really sure that I or anyone else actually suspected Furc though, it's kinda difficult to read people before they post.

Next post "That's a pretty neato case" I presume this was directed towards MOI. In the same post, he hops a wagon based solely on MOI's case. With no other comment himself, he asks three others to provide thoughts for him. his reasons? Why should he not be so Hipster as to not vote with others. In this post, he said that neither he nor any of the others could have a read on furc. What was he hoping to achieve with the Furc comment?

A wagon.

Maybe even a lynch.

Over his next few posts he changes his vote to Xis. Again, he attempts to get a read on someone by asking someone else.

Jarvis, what's your read on ThAdmiral?

He responds well, so he goes back up to null, or at least overtakes Xis.

Why would you want to lynch someone who hasn't even posted yet?

I don't know. I'm not a great believer in policy lynching, and I wouldn't be the one to hammer or even push the wagon towards a lynch, but I wouldn't have too many complaints if it went through.

At the time, I completely agreed with his case on Xis as I had my own reasons for voting him. Again, he states that while he's not willing to vote for it, he's all for the Furc lynch.

And not really because I think he's scum, though I did find myself considering a Xis-Furc policy-bus gambit earlier. Just wouldn't be a blow even if he flipped town.

I'm assuming this is some sort of in-joke, but what did you mean by this?

I'm not really sure about that assumption. It's just a question - i.e. was my vote better than a Furc vote?

This is the most glaring inconsistency, especially given that they are 2 posts apart. Jarvis can you explain your thought process here?

Not really an inconsistency. Don't need a scumread to lynch someone. Not that I was the only one heading that way, but refer back to previous thoughts about not being upset.

Why would you not have any complaints if you don't agree with it?

Because VIs are hard to read, a distraction, and a liability. And he might even be scum.

1. Could you explain what a Xis-Furc policy-bus gambit is?
2. If that's not an in-joke it's asking for approval.
3. See again my point about lynching people you don't have a scum read on. That's not a townie thought process. period.
4. If you find them to be a distraction, ignore them. If you find them scummy, then Lynch them. Random equals uninformed which in turn reduces chances for a successful scum lynch. Although, have you ever wished the game had a minus poster at the bottom of the page? Like a reverse Iso. ahh dreams...

Fuck this. I have been abundantly clear and I cannot be fucked responding to 2 or 3 walls.

Xis is maybe town but I want him dead because I hate how he's playing. And fuck you and your smug sarcastic comments too. Yes, you were ruthlessly pursuing the lynch, and I still see no reason for it. As pretty much anyone can see. And as if you're actually saying "he voted X and I didn't say he was bussing" is a stance on someone. Bull fucking shit.

Zang is spinning so much shit out of a perfectly clear position. Sotty is staying remarkably close to the fence. MoI is cheering Zang on while avoiding the issue himself. ThAd is probably scum still. Fonz has done so little.

Yeah, fuck this.

Cheap way to avoid questioning, followed by Xis is maybe town but I want him dead anyways. That's the second player he's said that he would lynch with or without a scum read. You say that Zang is spinning like a pro but I'm reading things exactly as he sees them. You followed it all up with OMGUS and a "Fuck this". Evasion in it's finest.

What are your current thoughts on Thad?

He is being difficult. That makes him probably scum. But maybe town.

My vote is staying where it is because I do not see the TOWN OMG YAY in solely pushing a policy lynch at the expense of voting a scumread without ever having played with said player before. As in actually pushing and striving for a lynch.

Or how any town player actually imagines "he voted a scumread and I didn't say he was bussing" to be a stance on someone.

Null but probably town but maybe scum. You certainly try hard to obfuscate things don't you? Your prior stance was null. Now he's probably scum but maybe town. You seem to be desparately trying to please everyone while simultaneously casting doubt in any number of directions.

Unvote

I am not at all interested in answering wall after wall of quotes. Shitting up the thread with back and forth quotewalls is not pro-town. If you have a question, put it concisely and I'll get to it. Requote old ones if you must.

@Jarvis:

Would you please explain the evolution of these votes?

Lanthir in 22 - reason: doesn't want to follow MoI

ThAd in 49 - sheeping MoI claiming "neato case"
Xis in 62 - joining ThAd, whom you were JUST voting, on a wagon

That first bit. Did you make it up? And when you move your vote off someone, it usually means you've changed your mind. Do you not find that?

More question avoidance. More general uncooperativeness.

I find this ThAd-meta discussion tiresome and clunky. I don't see where it is getting anyone.

Pure wagon derailment. This is where the information comes from. If Jarvis were to flip scum, and I'm fairly sure he will, There are links between both him and Peregrine and him and Thad. If there's 2 scum to a nine player game, there's probably 3 to a 13 player game, right? Information is one of the least important things factoring into my vote.

[Mr_Ree]

Examples of "leading the charge":
cute mafia
Mostly normal micro
Newbie 1298

[Mr_Ree]

Mr_Ree is actively lurking

Peregrine is either dumb (I know that's not the case as he's normally sucking up to me), or grasping at straws

How did my post 305 tell you that? The problem with that arguement is I've been seldomly posting site-wide. I can point to two vanilla games where I've been accused of the same thing over the last two weeks. Xis and MOI are familiar with one and 1298 is the other.

[Mr_Ree]

@Peregrine: you still haven't commented on how the first point in your case against me was fail. You said I should have had a town read on Lanthir by post 19 (My semi random vote, chosen mainly because Lanthir was the first in the game to call someone a Moron.) Yet you didn't make up your mind about him until post 46. So tell me, exactly how was I supposed to get a read on him when you couldn't get a read on him yourself? I kinda forget your second reason but if I remember correctly, it was almost as bad. That's probably what Furc was referring to when he said you were grasping at straws.

You will all note that information wasn't the only reason listed when placing my vote. I also listed a second reason that was focused on quite highly in my case. I noticed that nobody commented on the actual case itself. I thought it was quite good and showed the progression of how I came to suspect Jarvis. Of course, it's not my read on Jarvis that anyone has a problem with, it was the use of the word "information". Scary scary information.

Who needs information in a game of mafia? Town. Scum has all the answers. They already know who is town and who is scum. All I wanted was a baseline. One person known as either scum so I can look for links and partners or cleared as town so I can pursue other avenues. Since this seems to be a meta-heavy game, can somebody point out a game where scum wanted an information lynch and listed no other reasons? I've seen it done by town but I've never seen it done by scum.

Information is one of the least important things factoring into my vote.

Then it is either very stupid or very scummy that you chose to lead with only that fact when you made your vote.

Phoneposting so bear with me.

We stand to gain the most information from Jarvis so my vote goes there.

Twice this game he has stated that he would Lynch players regardless of alignment simply for distaste of the player. As new arguments come up I'm sure you'll develop a distaste towards more players.

vote Jarvis

As you can see, I lead with my leading reason, not the information. If information was the sole reason for my vote, I would have listed what information I was hoping to achieve and how it would affect my future efforts.

Pure wagon derailment. This is where the information comes from. If Jarvis were to flip scum, and I'm fairly sure he will, There are links between both him and Peregrine and him and Thad. If there's 2 scum to a nine player game, there's probably 3 to a 13 player game, right?

Information is one of the least important things factoring into my vote.

If this is the case, why is it the first thing you cited in the post where you vote for him?

Thanks for the 'leading the charge' meta, but I wasn't asking for meta. Sorry if that was unclear. I can easily see how 'leading the charge' shows pro-town intent. I wanted evidence that you were in any way 'leading the charge' in this game. Because as far as I can see, your play in this game is the polar opposite - skulking in the shadows.

Also, please answer the question as to whether you believe voting for information is a good thing, and if so why.

You want to see me lead a charge this game? Get me to day 2 or 3. I don't do well on day 1 unless I'm dealing with newbies. You can meta me if you'd like. Check any one of those leading the charge links and you will see that they all come in day 2 or later. Skulking in the shadows... I haven't checked recently but couldn't you say the same for Peregrine, Furc, early Yates, Lanthir, and Amrun? (Not that I'm saying all are scummy for doing so) I've been busy. I normally post 3-7 times a day but I just switched jobs, winterized my girlfriend's place and I'm the super in my apartment building where the entire outside of the building has been torn off and replaced. I'm rather busy. I can't always be on here 24/7 but I've done my best to answer all questions directed at me.

It's day 1, Fonz. Seriously, what do I have to work with? I think Jarvis is the scummiest player and I see connections between him and the other leading wagon, Thad. Can you fault me for wanting to know if my scum pick is right? If he flips scum, do we not have more reason to go after Thad? Do we not have reasons to doubt his reads?

I believe I already answered your last question. Do I believe in it and think it's a good thing? Hell yes. I believe I have already proved that point. Why? Any number of reasons. Mainly because I think he's scum and I want to check reactions and hear a claim. Do I think that should be the sole reason for wagoning? No, but as I demonstrated, it was not.

[Mr_Ree]

That sort of makes sense but in your post 22 you stated you were waiting to get a read on Lanthir. It came 2 posts before mine. I did make reference later that I voted him first for that reason. Look into 1298 to see where I did the same to Buldermar-scum.

Could you expand on "testing momentum"?

@Nero: lol

[Mr_Ree]

Scum-colo

Ohne Mafia <--- Top scumteam results in any MS game ever.

Seriously if you don't read any of the others read this one

(HINT: ZERO TOWN DEATHS BY GAME END)
New Designer Mafia

Thanks xis I'll check

it

out.

I thought I had explained my position clearly. At no point did I ever say I would become thefurc Meta master. I wanted to check out the perfect game but I really had no time and there was a possibility of him getting replaced. I did look into a few once he started posting.

@Sotty I made a serious case against Jarvis. I'm not seeing how that qualifies as distancing. It should be obvious that I am very much for this wagon. If you think it's an opportunistic jump than maybe I should link the progression where I start to suspect him, I commented that Zhang made some good points against him, I decided to do a re-read, I came back from my reread and voted.

[Mr_Ree]

As you can see, I was phoneposting at the time I voted. I made my full case when I got to a computer. Information was not the sole basis around my vote. I believe I've made that point clear but perhaps I should show the progression..

For that matter, what are your thoughts on Jarvis? Zang has brought up some good points.

Sorry guys, I'll try to get a post in tonight.

Have to read up again

and a do a bunch of work winterproofing my Girlfriends's place. Will be back ASAP.

I'm still a little suspicious of Xis but admittedly less so.

I'm thinking scum lies somewhere between Jarvis and Thad but I'm leaning more Jarvis than Thad, although I did notice some connections between the two.

For some reason Peregrine is pinging me but I'm not sure if it's because of the vote on me or if it's because of the inconsistency surrounding his thoughts on Lanthir

As you can see, it was not an opportunistic vote, it was clearly on my mind since post 87. It also won't be too much of a leap when I vote Peregrine, who is next on my list. So seeing as how we have under five days left and I'd like to get on with this, how about you name claim for us? I'm not the only one voting for you and you seem to be ignoring that fact. You are currently at L-1. So instead of just calling my post plagerized, when it is clearly my own thoughts, why not try responding to the many players voting you.

You followed it all up with OMGUS and a "Fuck this". Evasion in it's finest.

You seem to be a pro at dodging the issues against you. You seem to try to AtE your way out of everything as if we all know your alignment. We don't. Your anti-town behaviour has come into question and garnered you the first L-1 wagon of the game. Congrats. Time to put some effort in.

[Mr_Ree]

Phoneposting so I'm going to make this quick.

On Jarvis's wagon, Amrun probably has the worst vote. I'm curious how the reading went. She came in, re-read the game, voted and then went AWOL. I understand her recent difficulties so I'm willing to give her a chance for now.

On my wagon, Peregrine's vote was seriously lacking. It looks like he coasted for most of day 1 after voting me. I can somewhat understand his second reason even though it's BS. I find the Lanthir vote reason for voting me to be stupid. I can't believe he held on to it until that point. He may be posting but he's posting fluff. He hasn't explained anything and I really don't see any scumhunting since his vote on me.

[b] vote Peregrine [/b]

I'll expand on this more later today.

[Mr_Ree]

VOTE: Peregrine

[Mr_Ree]

Could you elaborate on the night targets thing?

[Mr_Ree]

Lol. I didn't realize you were referring to night kills, let alone targets I would have had. I haven't got a scum role yet on Mafiascum but you're probably right, if I was scum, The Fonz would be target numero uno.

@Thad, what are your thoughts on Peregrine? That slot has been bugging the shit out of me all game. If he's not scum I'll eat my hat.

@Fonz: Thad has a pretty good point. If anything, a Sotty kill points more towards DLM but it's Wifomy as hell. Considering DLM is one of your scum reads, I'm surprised you didn't vote there. That case certainly suited them better.

@Peregrine: You've had the same tunnel vision vote for a full day phase. You must have a solid case by now, let's hear it. Who else do you think is scummy? If I flipped town, who would you vote for?

[Mr_Ree]

Sorry guys, I'm going to read up on what I missed. Just started a new job and It's been taking up a lot of my focus. I'll post my thoughts in the morning.

[Mr_Ree]

Vote: Mr_Ree

Although I'll have to go back and look at now-town Sotty, Jarvis was a crap lynch yesterday. Should have been Mr_Ree easy.

Why was Jarvis's lynch crap? If you believed as much why not defend him? Is it because he asked for your approval on an RVS vote? I should have been voting you yesterday. You rode my vote to get through the day and now you're hoping to do the same.

As for Ree, I really don't see what your point is... that I'm scum and I deliberately passed up the chance to use an argument against him that I use all the time as town and therefore wouldn't get called on in order to use a different argument because...? Why is using one argument to try to get Ree lynched rather than another scummy?

If that argument is complete bullshit then it is scummy. Why would you open the day by trying to tie me to the NK of someone who never even voted for me? Would she have? Maybe. If you were trying to say DLM was your next top suspect due to the NK then just say so. I have to know... Are you deliberately trying to pick fights with MOI? I realize there is some history there but you two seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. If it was actually going somewhere, I'd be willing to overlook it but it all looks very town on town. I'm more inclined to listen to MOI's points but that might just be for OMGUS reasons.

Isn't the much simpler explanation the fact that his early active lurking (which I consider to be a bigger sin than low post count) and his 'Let's vote the a popular wagon for information' post are more compelling reasons to believe him scum?

I've gotten busy in real life. It happens. I'm managing a rental shop at a ski hill and I've been trying to get everything ready for opening, this weekend. I've been busy in all my games, it's not alignment indicative. Ask MOI or Xis about that. Secondly, it was not a popular wagon until well after I voted Jarvis. As far as the information things go, I told you I was phone posting and didn't phrase my case very well. You either believe me or you don't. I'm not going to spend hours going back and forth on this, I'd rather scumhunt with what limited time I have to play.

I suspected Rhee as a secondary suspect yesterday and Sotty's death indicates him. And also, him saying I had the worst vote is ridiculous when I still like the reason I voted for Jarvis, even though he turned up town.

Since when did you suspect me? Why didn't you at least some how indicate that in one of your previous posts? You did have the worst vote on the wagon. Not for reasons though. I said you had the worst vote because it seemed like you were milking your catchup in order to avoid giving opinions on anything else in the game. I had my suspicions on Lanthir right off the bat. I mentioned you at the start of the day because after doing my read through, I didn't see much effort put into your vote, as you say it came from a page 6 read. I didn't see much beyond prod dodges for the rest of day 1. You never once commented on me beyond asking for my mafia experience, which you didn't really comment on either. If you had been night killed, how would anyone ever know that you suspected me? If I had been night killed and flipped town, I really doubt you would have referred to me as your secondary suspect.

I think that scum will probably be within DLM, Peregrine or possibly Amrun. I would probably guess DLM though.

I get the feeling that we are thinking along the same lines. Why DLM over Peregrine or Amrun? I'm in focus mode on Peregrine so I'm having trouble looking past it.

This response is exactly why I think you are scum. You are more worried about winning a battle than finding out my alignment. You keep throwing down phrases along the lines of "I can't see how anyone would think other than this" which looks like it indicates you find my argument scummy. Yet you aren't calling me scum. You are more interested in framing your position as reasonable as opposed to finding and lynching scum.

Funny, because I was about to say exactly the same about you. You don't appear interested in convincing me that Amrun, or ThAd, or anyone is a better lynch than Ree, you just seem to want to 'win' this back-and-forth. My arguing with you has two points: one, to rebut the suggestion that my pushing a Ree lynch is in anyway scummy by disproving the untrue things you say about me, and two, to convince you that the case on Ree is, in fact, valid.

Pushing my lynch is scummy because of the way you're going about it. Moi is right, you two are arguing in circles and you seem more concerned about winning said arguement than in doing much else. I can't remember your last post when you didn't quote or mention MOI. Number two is number two. As in crap. Your case isn't valid because my role PM says town. Speaking of cases......what was it again?

Right, the remaining MOI rebuttal, in bullet pointed form, because doing the full back and forth is damaging my will to live:

1) The point of pointing out that you do all these things which would normally be considered scumtells all the time when you're town is because you asked me why I wasn't voting you or calling you scum. I am not voting you or calling you scum because your play is INCREDIBLY consistent with your town meta.

2) The nightkill is not the reason for my suspicion of Ree. I was voting him before that. As I said, it just doesn't incline me to ease up on him, because Sotty definitely suspected him. I'm primarily arguing that point with you, though, because that is the point you are contesting/accusing me of lying about.

3) The reason for my suspicion of Ree is based on his day one play, and primarily his 'information' vote. (Which you yourself called either very stupid or very scum, invalidating your suggestion that my suspicion is based on a 'bad reason.') If you want the whole case laid out in a single post, I'm happy to do so. In fact, I should probably do that anyway.

I believe I covered this in this post already. Now for the rest of that case...

4) Mr Ree is not the newest player in the game or 'low hanging fruit' (I also despise this argument in general, but let's assume for the sake of argument it's valid). That is Xisq, and was previously Lanthir. I know that Mr Ree is not new, because I modded him in a newbie game over a year ago. If you mean DLM, that account has a recent join date, but is a hydra containing Nero Cain, who joined in '09, so they don't get a newbie pass either.

4) Further to 3, I'd also like to note that you criticised me for NOT attacking Lanthir (over his 'lurking') therefore you are applying Damned If I Do, Damned If I Don't to me. Same as how in Scummies, you attacked me for lurkerhunting, claiming it wasn't something town-Fonz does (although recall my main reason for suspecting him was something he said in the judging QT that I wasn't able to share) and are now attacking me for not lurkerhunting, claiming it's something town-Fonz ALWAYS does. The explanation is simple - I go after lurking when I think it's being done deliberately, or if I feel the active players seem mostly genuine and therefore the scum are more likely to be in the inactives, or if the amount of lurking is killing town morale/preventing discussion from taking place. I don't believe either Amrun or Furc were doing it as a deliberate tactic, therefore I didn't attack them.

5) You ask if I'm saying you shouldn't "suspect people who don’t read scum as such when I do as Town." What I'm saying is that even when you turn out to be right, you can't just assume the people who disagree with you the most are scum, and completely ignore the possibility of bussing. In Scummies, you lynched EVERYONE that was on the theamatuer wagon who wasn't lucky enough to get NKed first. In fact, all the scum bussed. Then you actually turned on theamatuer yourself later in the game when he was playing much the same as he was when I was attacking him. In AR, you pushed the lynch of Majiffy day two, who was Majiffy? Why, the player who disagreed with you the strongest, of course (to be fair, Majiffy would have done the same to you had CMAR been the lynch). For instance, I feel that you were sincere in your suspicion of ThAd/Jarvis, despite him flipping town. Likewise, I think Zang probably believed what he was saying. I am much more skeptical of, you guessed it, DLM and Mr Ree. I am skeptical of Yates even though I feel he was probably 'right' about ThAd, because of the way he went about it.

So that's it then? Information? I had other reasons too you know.

Ree-433- get some Tabasco.
Also, read 327. Sotty is town, and Zang now gets squinty-eyes (I find that day1 town lynch is led by scum often enough that I usually re-read them) for his spot on the Jarvis wagon.
In regards to 360, what information did you get from Jarvis lynch. You know, beyond his alignment.

I do have a better feeling about Thad. It was always more about the wagon than the lynch though. It helped me pick out Amrun as my runner up suspect. Wagons tend to give me the clearest information. Should the BOTH of you flip town (highly doubtful), I would consider Xis or DLM. For now they are both sitting in my null range. As far as hot sauce goes, I prefer Franks red hot, not that I'll need it.

@Zang-449- You seem to have a much higher opinion of MrRee posts/content than many other people. If you haven't explained it somewhere in the next page(19), please do.
re:Jarvis- no votes on his, no suspicion of him, and said he was probably town in 327.
As an exercise in what I mean, ISO Jarvis, ISO MrRee. Jarvis is town, so compare his posts/content to MrRee.

You never actually pointed out what we are supposed to see from looking at both ISO's. My biggest problem with you is your inability to form a case, despite your many games. I know you are not new. Your case just seems so lackluster and you basically used it to coast the entire first day. It even came very close to looking like you forgot what your case actually was when you were questioned about it and you said your previous reasons still stood. I responded to those reasons, you never really responded to me.

[Mr_Ree]

Right, MOI rebuttal will come later. Priority right now is restating the Ree case.

This better be good....

1. Reason numero uno is his scummy hop onto the Jarvis wagon. He uses the 'information' justification, which is an easy thing for scum to do to pile a vote on a townie without associating themselves with the basis for the wagon.

So right off the bat, you ignore my other reasons for voting

2. He has never used 'information' as a reason for a vote before as town.

Not true, I pushed a wagon in a very recent game for that very reason. The situation is very similar.

3. He then claims when pressed on it that his reason for doing this is actually basically nothing to do with what he said it was. "Very stupid or very scum" according to MOI.

Not nothing, it just wasn't my only reason. I was phoneposting and I really shouldn't have said it first. I guess you could classify that as stupid but that doesn't mean I don't feel it was valid.

4. His early game play featured filler posts (#34 and #66) which seem designed to give the illusion of content (yes, 'trying too hard') and a strawman argument (#46).

34 was a response to Sotty saying she expected me to read them all(furc's games) and become a furc-meta-master. So was 66 now that I look at it. They were responses.... that still counts as content. It may not be relevant to catching scum but I believe the same could be said for many of your posts regarding MOI. As far as 46 goes, what the hell is a strawman arguement? I've heard you use that before. I voted Xis for a very real reason, his before-confirmation furc-lynch.

5. Little evidence of actual scumhunting. He's currently voting the guy who's most suspicious of him on some lame 'coasting' argument, in addition to the 'jumped the biggest wagon for a shit reason' thing I identified in point one.

Biggest wagon? How do you figure that? Wasn't it Thad at that time? I believe I was the second to vote Jarvis, and again, I had other reasons.

6. This one's really for MOI, since I know he loves this tell and used it to catch scum in American Revolution:

If there's 2 scum to a nine player game, there's probably 3 to a 13 player game, right?

A player who's been on site nearly a year and a half doesn't know that three scum in 13p is standard? Fucking really? Trying to point out how he's uninformed for fake town cred.

Close but no Cigar. How many 13 player games have I played in that have finished? How many 9 player games have I played in? Why wouldn't I ask if it affected my reads?

7. The person who died overnight called him an 'excellent vote.' Despite MOI's protestations to the contrary, that's clearly a real suspicion. Not a major premise of my vote, but again, doesn't exactly incline me to let him off the hook.

If she thought I was an excellent vote, why did she never vote me? Not once. She even started a "one woman wagon", as you say, on DLM when I was sitting at 4 votes. 4 VOTES! If she thought I was that scummy, why not pick me over DLM?

[Mr_Ree]

Thanks Zang. I'm not sure 46 qualifies as a strawman attack. It was just my biggest reason to vote Xis and seemed like an odd play.

[Mr_Ree]

I've been looking at all three Nos. Naomi's calm under pressure act speaks volumes. Bulder is just derpy. We have the least information on Fe. If you are indeed correct, I'd like to see a good wagon on him before the day ends.

Bulder is a wildcard and a nuisance. My dislike for the player exceeds my dislike for the slot. Since he is officially gone, i have no problem getting some fresh eyes and opinions from a new player. Yes, they will be nightkilled if town but that way we get information on Bulder's slot regardless of who we choose to lynch. If we choose to support your theories, put some pressure on Fe. If not, FNC is a great choice. He's playing kinda funny, can't read him. Not one little bit. We gain the most information right now from anyone besides Bulder. Look at connections. Bulder<>Naomi, Naomi<Fe, Nos<>Giggs.

If Bulder-town gets lynched, it will lead to you or Giggs getting lynched tomorrow. I'm still under the impression that it's either Naomi, Fe or Bulder. We've already exhausted two options but we still have time for the last.

You can't say I never used information as a reason to wagon someone before. In both games I provided other reasons also. BTW, I was town in that game too.

[Mr_Ree]

@Xis, What happened to your Amrun vote? Why do you feel it's going to come down to Peregrine or DLM?

[Mr_Ree]

@Orange welcome to the game. I'm assuming this is an alt account? You don't seem all that new to Mafia despite your recent join date.

Why did I choose to vote Peregrine instead of Amrun? I've always had better luck finding scum on my own wagon and Peregrine piqued my interest on day 1. Full case incoming when I can get to a computer.

I would happily take a Peregrine Lynch over anyone else. If I had to settle for anyone else at this point, it would probably be DLM. With the new player comes new reads. Replacing out was probably the best way to help that slot. I have a much better feeling about Orange than either of his predecessors.

I'll get to the rest tomorrow. I need a computer and a re-read.

[Mr_Ree]

VLA until Monday. Things have gotten too hectic with the new job and for some reason staff wifi is down.

[Mr_Ree]

I do know there are 3 scum to a 13 player game....usually. There is also the possibility that there is an off role like a SK or Jester. I don't see why Fonz has made such a big deal about this. In fact, he didn't start to make a big deal about it until MOI did.

At the time I posted that I only had one completed mini. After looking through other games to try to make sense of all the Meta related cases, I came to realize that it's just as likely to have a third party role of some sort

[Mr_Ree]

@Orange: What other name do you go by? Have you ever played a game with MOI before? I only ask because it really looks like you are trying to buddy him.

[Mr_Ree]

I'm back and sitting in front of a laptop (YAY!) It's time I get around to making some of the posts I've been thinking about. I'll be around all night.

[Mr_Ree]

I do know there are 3 scum to a 13 player game....usually. There is also the possibility that there is an off role like a SK or Jester. I don't see why Fonz has made such a big deal about this.

In fact, he didn't start to make a big deal about it until MOI did.

At the time I posted that I only had one completed mini. After looking through other games to try to make sense of all the Meta related cases, I came to realize that it's just as likely to have a third party role of some sort

The bolded simply isn't true. It was part of my case on you before MOI said a word about it.

(As an aside, MOI claims this is a different but also valid scumtell to the one he used in AR - I think it's an example of the same point, scum trying to appear uninformed for town cred). If you think it's strange that, when lobbying for MOI's vote on my top suspect, I emphasise the part of the case that I think he's particularly likely to buy because I've seen him use it before, I don't know what to tell you. I don't really understand how you can think that's a bad thing. What I will say is that the evidence that MOI dug up of your awareness of the mini game norms does rebuild my confidence in the tell, after what you brought about your record made me doubt, enough that when combined with your continued lack of scumhunting makes me happy to restore my vote.

Vote: Mr. Ree

this wagon needs to be rebuilt.

I need to look at ThAd vs DLM for the fallback option if this doesn't work. I think DLM was the scummier yesterday, but I've liked some of the scumhunting that's come out of that slot today (contrast with Mr_Ree). I think it's VERY noteworthy that ThAd, who seems to have had a soft 'leaning scum' kind of read on Ree for most of the game, now decides to come out in defense of him, as far as I can see solely because MOI has altered his stance in the opposite direction. As stated before, PereV wagon is bad. I also have a separate post to come later today concerning Furc.

REEALLLY?!?! Your bolded is simply untrue. You used it in your "Drop the Ree vote case". You know, the post where you UNVOTED me. You did absolutely nothing with the information until MOI took an interest in it.

As far as MOI's ISO of me goes, I'm not trying to avoid this thread, in fact I'm trying to post here as often as time allows. The only other game I'm playing in is a newbie game where I'm a first time IC. Do you not think that I would put the majority of my focus and what little time I have into the game I'm IC'ing? As I have stated before, I'm managing a ski hill rental shop and am the superintendent of my apartment building. I post here as often as I can.

On to Peregrine, Agent O, DLM and Furc. Cases incoming.

[Mr_Ree]

Since the first place I look for scum is on my own wagons, I'll start with Peregrine. One of his very first accusation posts listed my vote on Lanthir (of all reasons..) as to why I'm scum. He claimed to have a town read on him by post 19 and expected me to have the same. I offer this as proof he had no such town read:

What are you waiting for?

Get a read on Lanthir.

If he claimed to have a town read by post 19, why was he waiting to get a read at post 26?

vote Lanthir

Gonna have to read up on furcolo... For now, lanthir is as good a choice as any.

One other non confirming player

Vote: Yates

Lanthir probtown.

Slot defence noted. Let's see if I can find other examples:

@Amrun- start with basics for now. Who are your top townreads and top scumreads.

This looks like coaching to me. A strange thing to do considering this is your read:

I feel like they are latching on to existing arguments without expanding on those arguments nor offering rebuttals to them.
One I originally had a stronger town-read on but their replacement has diminished that, making me feel as if me early read was probably off, but we'll see.

Null/squnity-eyed: LynchMe, Sotty, Amrun

Trying to get Amrun out of trouble?

Still like MoI. Still like DLM. Still like Fonz.
Peregrine can be town for now.
ThAd and Yates are obvious scum and will get a separate case when I have time.
Lesser scumreads on Xis, Mr_Ree
Furc is bleh. Wouldn't be sad to see him gone.

Look forward to these, as I disagree on a few.

This is your very first response to the Lanthir/Amrun/AO slot. You didn't comment on Lanthir's lurking. You didn't comment on Amrun's lurking or the accusation that she was playing to her scum meta. You still haven't commented on the AO wagon.

What are your thoughts on that slot and the players who have occupied it so far?

Peregrine is either dumb (I know that's not the case as he's normally sucking up to me), or grasping at straws

What straws would that be?

I believe it was MOI that pointed out buddying with VI's is a scum tell. Speaking of Furc, I get the feeling there is something fishy going on with his Yates vote. It feels like it's his first real vote of the game. The soft defending comment does nothing to detract from that.

You guys do know that Jarvis is scum right?

-NC

:sigh: Why is Jarvis scum? Do it MoI style with posts and such, please.

I believe this brings me to yet another point. Only scum know who is town and who is not. Let me set the scene: It's day 1, nobody knows who is what alignment but you are insisting that Jarvis is town. The townie thing to do would be to point out why you thought he was town, or to possibly tear down the cases against him that you found weak. You did neither. In fact, you rode a vote and your original reasons behind it all day.

@PeregrineV

: Is your Mr_Ree opinion unchanged?

Pretty much. He's an unknown to me, so I didn't use meta, and the stuff I posted years ago still stands as why I think he's scum.

Vote: Mr_Ree

Although I'll have to go back and look at now-town Sotty, Jarvis was a crap lynch yesterday. Should have been Mr_Ree easy.

These two post show two things
1. You were voting for me just to have your vote on a perceived easy lynch that you had no intention of pushing on your own.
2. You were trying to distance yourself from the Jarvis lynch while soft pushing it through by not defending him.
You weren't voting me because I was voting your town read.

You were voting me because:
1. I voted Lanthir when I should have had a read on him 7 posts earlier, despite the fact that you didn't either (conceded by you)
2. I did not become a master furc reader. Quite frankly, I've been ignoring him like you and everyone else has. There is no content to read, it's mostly all vote hopping. The only thing that stands out for me content-wise is his last two posts. There is something to his Yates vote. It pings me but I'm not sure why. Other than that he is actively lurking and can go anytime since he hasn't been at all useful.

By riding my vote through the day, you managed to avoid the Thad wagon, the Xis wagon, and the Jarvis wagon. All in all, you were not at all helpful in day 1. You failed to push or defend anyone. Your read list listed everyone you have played before as town, actually, it listed pretty much everyone as town. That includes Furc to some extent.

All in all, you are the most deserving of my vote. I'm curious to why Fonz thinks this wagon is crap.

[Mr_Ree]

On to the Lanthir/Amrun/AO slot. This is the slot that stands out most from the Jarvis wagon and the other slot I've had an eye on today.

You can't try to steer the town on Page 1. I don't know you, I

don't

know how good you are, but I don't know why people would follow you.

The way it's written looks like an afterthought edit. It looks like the "don't" was added in after rereading it. I don't know why that's important. It just stands out.

Yes what I assumed from your humour is what I took from the post. A straight answer would've been better.

Anyway

mod can we get a prod or replacement on Yates? I didn't even know he was in the game.

Gonna re read today.

Lanthir's 9th and last post. Nothing of note really came from him, on to Amrun.

That's a pretty neato case. Be cool if I'd made it.

Unvote; Vote: ThAdmiral

I'm pretty unimpressed by no comment on it otherwise. I mean yeah okay Fonz promised more, but Mr Ree, Zang? Why do you feel no need to comment on pretty much the first case of the game?

Pedit: Ok Fonz can go on that list too. And to answer, I guess great minds, eh? Why should I be so hipst3r as to not vote with other people? Not really sure that I or anyone else actually suspected Furc though, it's kinda difficult to read people before they post.

Especially as it was a terrible case, this post rings really hollow to me. You criticize people for not commenting on the case, and yet you don't do so yourself, except to add your vote to it. That's not content.

You also do flip flop on your Furc stance, as Zang outlines later.

But the most annoying thing I find is the cognitive dissonance re: ThAd. You agree with MoI's case, which criticizes ThaD's assertion that "trying way too hard" is a scumtell. AND YET, you go on and on about how posting scum->town lists is a scumtell for exactly the same reason.

I also really hate how you push for explanations on town reads and even null reads for no discernible reason.

My vote belongs here.

VOTE: Jarvis

I'm only caught up to page 6; I will finish the rest either tonight or tomorrow

.

Alright, no problem. She's may have only read until page 6 but she said that she would read the rest later. Town Amrun would right? Three days later:

Sorry got unexpectedly busy - will post later today.

That didn't happen either. In fact, there was no further word from Amrun until the next day when Xis voted her and she responded with :

Good morning.

VOTE: Amrun

This is almost entirely meta-based. Relevant games are 90s Cartoons Mafia and Ladies Night 2.

Oh yes, and what, pray tell, have you gleaned from these games? That I was not as active as I used to be in them? Have you compared them from TOWN games of the same time period, which were EXACTLY THE SAME, and some of which I even had to replace out of? Did you happen to note, when supposedly reading Ladies Night, that my life turned to shit in the middle of it and it affected all games equally? I'm still recovering from that now, struggling to get back into mafia after that whole thing. I wanted to replace into a small game to try and make up for the games I replaced out of, which I feel bad for. Overall, the experiment of being in any game at all right now seems to be FAILING, because I have to force myself to do anything.

One sided meta is exactly as useless as a pile of crap on the floor.

I suspected Rhee as a secondary suspect yesterday and Sotty's death indicates him. And also, him saying I had the worst vote is ridiculous when I still like the reason I voted for Jarvis, even though he turned up town.

Holidays are over now, not eating up my time anymore. Trying to get back into the swing of things.

I wish I had gotten around to this when she was still around. She did not indicate she suspected me day 1, she only questioned me about my experience on and off site. She is also sheeping the argument that Sotty's death pointed solely to me, which is complete crap. I stand by the fact that she had the worst vote, not for her reasons but because she was only caught up to page 6 when she made it and made no mention of it, push, or attempt to finish reading the game. By the time she replaced out, there was still no indication that she had actually finished reading the game. I get being busy, I'm the busiest person I know. I don't get how someone can read the game halfway and then continue on after missing out on the information that came before it.

On to Agent O:

Bah, was gonna full catch up in one sitting but these walls of text are hurting my brain and I'm going to have to take a break. For now here are my thoughts on the first 11 pages.

Spoiler: thoughts as I read through the game

P1 - RVS, blah. I joined the game for the same reason MagnaofIllusions did. Don't know anything of the flavor, just liked the playerlist and saw jason was the mod.

P2 - I don't like ThAdmiral, I like MagnaofIllusions. I think The FOnz might be buddying my player.

P3 - I thought the Furcow wagon was just joking. Xis seems to actually want him lynched though under the guise of it being pro-town based on meta. Don't really like it but it's only page 3 so whatever. I like Don't Lynch Me.

Sotty's peregrine vote is bleh.

Xis' 68 is overly defensive.

P4 - Bleh, don't like Zang's "leaning scum on xis, but you're logical so I won't vote you". The scumread gives him an excuse to vote him later on, but by just saying he's logical it allows him to get away with not voting. Don't like Furc's uh... posts. Zang's case on Jarvis is stupid. Not surprised ThAd latches onto Zang's jarvis case and rides it.

P5 - Xis' unvote of furc is confusing. He wants him policy lynched for being a VI, but then he unvotes him for being a VI. The fact that he simply unvotes and doesn't move his vote to someone else is suspicious. Still don't like Zang. Xis' case on ThAd feels too little too late and doesn't earn him any town points, but does not look like scum partner distancing. Likelyhood of Xis + ThAd team is low.

P6 - honestly these walls of text are getting annoying. Just skimmed it, but nothing really stood out.

P7 - Jarvis is still town. MoI's attack on him is dumb. Vig on yates is dumb. Oh wait it's fake. Yates is null-scum.

P8 - I will have to double check Yates' supposed self meta. Yates moving further into the scum pile with 198, making a bold assertion that ThAd won't flip scum and "all we'll have is wagon analysis"

P9 - Observation: Yates has not given any scum reads, but has defended both ThAd and Xis. I like Fonz pressure on yates

P10 - Continuing to like Fonz push on Yates. Zang is still pushing a bad case on Jarvis. Dont lynch me town read further solidified with his posts this page.

P11 - More ugly walls. Still think ThAd is scummy, his buddying of my slot is noted. I side with Fonz on the Fonz vs. Yates

Top scum reads are ThAd, Yates, Xis (biggest to smallest). I do not think ThAd + Xis would be scum together, Yates could be scum with either. Zang is more of a milder scumread, I could see him with either as well. Town reads on MagnaofIllusion, Jarvis, Don't lynch me, Sotty. Slightly weaker town read on The Fonz.

The rest (Furc, ree, Pere) are nullish, probably town just due to PoE, but if the scumteam isn't Yates/ThAd/Zang or Yates/Xis/Zang this is where I'd look next. Actually I have an ever-so-slight town read on Peregrine.

Just checked the flips, Sotty and Jarvis were town. I am awesome. Why hasn't ThAd been lynched?

I've bolded the mentions of Peregrine in both the spoiler and main text. Peregrine connection noted. In the spoiler he called Sotty's Peregrine vote blah, in the main text, I see cognitive dissonance. Peregrine is null, probably town due to POE, but maybe scum if he's wrong about any of his other 4 scum reads, but he has an ever so slight town read on Peregrine (just to prevent himself from ever having to vote him) Do not like that post.

Okay, all caught up for the most part. I did cheat a little bit and skim over a few pages because I got bored but I think I've got the gist of this game.

Spoiler: P12 - P22

P12/13 (lost count somewhere) - Yate's 298 "Not scumhunting doesn't make me scummy it makes me ineffectual" is a laughably bad defense. Yates' blind defense of ThAd is starting to look more like white knighting than buddy defending. However his defending of Xis is weaker and looks less like white knighting and more like straight buddy defending. Mr_Ree's "ThAd and Jarvis are scummy, vote: Jarvis because he will give more information" is bad. Voting for information isn't the scummy part - I've done the same as town when having to choose between two equally scummy players. The scummy part is that he actually thinks Jarvis Lynch will give more than ThAd (I strongly disagree with that) and doesn't state what information specifically he'd get out of it.

Can someone explain 311? The flavor is Rolls, ring, bird? Or actually explain the flavor at all?

P14 -

Peregrine - 7 town reads really? and 1 scum read? Then scrolling down, your reasoning for 5 of them are essentially "they're playing to town meta" with no other reasoning. Yuck. Peregrine moving towards scum read.

Have to check Ree's meta, mainly to see if Fonz meta attack on him is justified.

P15 - I don't understand DLM's jump onto the Jarvis wagon.
P16 - Xis' jump onto Jarvis is just as bad as DLM's. Actually no, maybe not, I haven't been paying attention to deadlines to it's possible this is a deadline vote.

P17 - Fonz looking more and more town. ThAd still looking scum. Will have to analyze the flips in a separate post

P18 -

Ree thinks the D1 wagons look worst for Amrun/Lanthir but votes Pere?

I like MoI's point about ThAd looking scummy according to his own criteria of night kill analysis (post 439). MagnaofIllusion vs Fonz is town/town.

P19 - MagnaofIllusion's case on ThAd is spot on. Case on Fonz, not so much. MagnaofIllusion vs. Fonz is still town/town

P20 - Yates sheeping the amrun wagon "just to see what happens" is an excuse I see from scum more than town. Oh my god this page stop walling, excuse me for skimming most of this.

P21 - Zang's 516 looks town and legitimate scumhunting. Speaking of which, last few pages make Pere seem more town than scum.

P22 - Too many walls. I'll read this later.

So, as scum, on page 4, I had to make up a reason not to vote for someone who I said I was leaning scum on?

Yes, that's what I said.

Also, how was my case on Jarvis bad? and how did ThAd latch onto my case when he never voted for Jarvis and even later in the day, called Jarvis town?

Your case (I assumed you're talking about the one on page 4) is bad because it's entirely based on him flip flopping on page 4. That is not something scum do, scum try to look as consistent in their reads as possible early on and especially don't flip flop within a span of 5 posts. That's something town does actually. Scum very rarely "scumslip" like that, and it seems like you're grasping at straws for a scum motivation when there is none. But that is neither here nor there. No point arguing over a dead player's alignment.

He latches on because he doesn't start pointing out Jarvis' inconsistencies until a case has already been made on him. And the fact that he doesn't vote him just means he can push the lynch further without getting his hands dirty with an actual vote. And how was I supposed to know ThAd would just drop the case and call him town later on? This was my thoughts, AT THAT MOMENT when reading post 95/96.

~~
Still like MoI. Still like DLM. Still like Fonz.

Peregrine can be town for now.

ThAd and Yates are obvious scum and will get a separate case when I have time.
Lesser scumreads on Xis, Mr_Ree
Furc is bleh. Wouldn't be sad to see him gone.
I retract my previous scumread on Zang. He can be town (for now), not a super strong town read but less scummy than above and he doesn't look as bad starting day 2 after the jarvis lynch, and makes good points here and there so I can chalk his thirst for jarvis blood d1 to town tunnel vision.
I'm a bit conflicted. I think ThAd and Yates are both scum, but I don't think they're scum together based on Yate's hardcore defending of him. Actually ThAd doesn't seem to make much sense with any of my scumreads except Mr_Ree and maybe Furc. I still wouldn't be against lynching him obviously.

P14. Thanks, I forgot to mention that. He does that twice btw. I thought it was three times before I went back over everything and found that one of them was quoted from earlier. Which post(s) brought you from this scum read to your town read on him(P21) and your final read-through-reads?

P18, Clarification. Amrun had the scummiest vote on Jarvis' wagon, Peregrine had the worst vote on my wagon, plus I suspected him for additional reasons at the time.

I suppose I'm tunnelling on Peregrine a wee bit. I'm pretty convinced about him being scum though.

@Orange welcome to the game. I'm assuming this is an alt account? You don't seem all that new to Mafia despite your recent join date.

That is correct.

Post 544 is scummy. You specifically say you replaced in based on a good playerlist not the theme. To look at the playerlist you would have had to look at which specifically shows Jarvis and Sotty already flipped Town.

“But MoI” you say “I knew the playerlist from the queue. I didn’t read the first post”. I don’t see how you managed to read the first 11 pages without seeing post 0 in the process.

I specifically avoided looking at the OP so that I could read the thread with a fresh unbiased perspective. How did I know the player list then? First of all, I had an idea of what players were in the game because I have spent a lot of time in the Coney Islant subforum following other different games, and noticed a pattern of certain players being in the "Last post by" column for this game. Without actually reading the game, it doesn't take a genius to make the connection that "last post by MagnaofIllusions in inbetweeners" means "MagnaofIllusions is in this game". When I was looking for a game to join, I didn't feel like waiting around in a queue so I looked at the replacement thread. Jason's was the only game that needed a replacement. I knew jason's games have similar player lists and recalled that I had seen many familiar faces in the "last post by column". Obviously I didn't have the entire player list committed to memory, but I had an idea. Then when I was making the final decision of whether to replace in or not I glanced at the last page of the game just to be sure and to see exactly what I was getting into.

Now you may be asking why I would look at the last page of the thread instead of the first. When scoping a game to decide whether I want to replace I don't really look at the first posts of the game, that doesn't make sense. I look at the later posts because that's a more accurate sample of the state the game is in and who I will be playing with.

Plus, like I said, I would rather have an unbiased perspective when reading over a game, so I deliberately avoid reading the OP anyway if I know I'm going to replace in.

So that post looks like “Oh, look how accurate I am! I had both already dead Town as such. I must be Town!”

That's stupid. Being right =/= being town. I was just congratulating myself out loud, because I enjoy being right about things.

Make you a deal – you work extra hard gathering the votes to lynch ThAd and if his wagon exclipses yours I probably join you. How’s that sound for a fair chance for you to

bus

scum-hunt?

Make you a better deal. Since you've made it clear ThAdmiral is a stronger scum read than me, you move to his wagon as soon as it gets one extra vote. You move your vote then, and we have a wagon of 3, same size as mine but with more momentum to it and on obvious scum.

Of course, I will still be hard at work getting ThAd lynched regardless of where you place your vote today, just give me time and I will have a proper case on him.

I really dislike this post. All kinds of bad. You honestly expect us to believe you didn't look at post 0 when you replaced in? When you were MAKING THE DECISION whether or not to replace in? How would not reading the OP give you an unbiased perspective? You haven't done a good job of defending yourself from MOI. I'd like to see your proper case. Your deal reeks of scum.

@Orange: What other name do you go by? Have you ever played a game with MOI before? I only ask because it really looks like you are trying to buddy him.

Dave.
I've played enough to know that he's always this arrogant and snappy no matter what his alignment. And believe me, if I was scum trying to buddy someone I would not pick him.

Why not if you thought it would get you off his back? It was a good try, just a little obvious. Who would you pick?

At this point I'd be willing to lynch either one of the two. Peregrine or Agent O. Enough for now, bedtime

[Mr_Ree]

On to the Lanthir/Amrun/AO slot. This is the slot that stands out most from the Jarvis wagon and the other slot I've had an eye on today.

You can't try to steer the town on Page 1. I don't know you, I

don't

know how good you are, but I don't know why people would follow you.

The way it's written looks like an afterthought edit. It looks like the "don't" was added in after rereading it. I don't know why that's important. It just stands out.

Yes what I assumed from your humour is what I took from the post. A straight answer would've been better.

Anyway

mod can we get a prod or replacement on Yates? I didn't even know he was in the game.

Gonna re read today.

Lanthir's 9th and last post. Nothing of note really came from him, on to Amrun.

That's a pretty neato case. Be cool if I'd made it.

Unvote; Vote: ThAdmiral

I'm pretty unimpressed by no comment on it otherwise. I mean yeah okay Fonz promised more, but Mr Ree, Zang? Why do you feel no need to comment on pretty much the first case of the game?

Pedit: Ok Fonz can go on that list too. And to answer, I guess great minds, eh? Why should I be so hipst3r as to not vote with other people? Not really sure that I or anyone else actually suspected Furc though, it's kinda difficult to read people before they post.

Especially as it was a terrible case, this post rings really hollow to me. You criticize people for not commenting on the case, and yet you don't do so yourself, except to add your vote to it. That's not content.

You also do flip flop on your Furc stance, as Zang outlines later.

But the most annoying thing I find is the cognitive dissonance re: ThAd. You agree with MoI's case, which criticizes ThaD's assertion that "trying way too hard" is a scumtell. AND YET, you go on and on about how posting scum->town lists is a scumtell for exactly the same reason.

I also really hate how you push for explanations on town reads and even null reads for no discernible reason.

My vote belongs here.

VOTE: Jarvis

I'm only caught up to page 6; I will finish the rest either tonight or tomorrow

.

Alright, no problem. She's may have only read until page 6 but she said that she would read the rest later. Town Amrun would right? Three days later:

Sorry got unexpectedly busy - will post later today.

That didn't happen either. In fact, there was no further word from Amrun until the next day when Xis voted her and she responded with :

Good morning.

VOTE: Amrun

This is almost entirely meta-based. Relevant games are 90s Cartoons Mafia and Ladies Night 2.

Oh yes, and what, pray tell, have you gleaned from these games? That I was not as active as I used to be in them? Have you compared them from TOWN games of the same time period, which were EXACTLY THE SAME, and some of which I even had to replace out of? Did you happen to note, when supposedly reading Ladies Night, that my life turned to shit in the middle of it and it affected all games equally? I'm still recovering from that now, struggling to get back into mafia after that whole thing. I wanted to replace into a small game to try and make up for the games I replaced out of, which I feel bad for. Overall, the experiment of being in any game at all right now seems to be FAILING, because I have to force myself to do anything.

One sided meta is exactly as useless as a pile of crap on the floor.

I suspected Rhee as a secondary suspect yesterday and Sotty's death indicates him. And also, him saying I had the worst vote is ridiculous when I still like the reason I voted for Jarvis, even though he turned up town.

Holidays are over now, not eating up my time anymore. Trying to get back into the swing of things.

I wish I had gotten around to this when she was still around. She did not indicate she suspected me day 1, she only questioned me about my experience on and off site. She is also sheeping the argument that Sotty's death pointed solely to me, which is complete crap. I stand by the fact that she had the worst vote, not for her reasons but because she was only caught up to page 6 when she made it and made no mention of it, push, or attempt to finish reading the game. By the time she replaced out, there was still no indication that she had actually finished reading the game. I get being busy, I'm the busiest person I know. I don't get how someone can read the game halfway and then continue on after missing out on the information that came before it.

On to Agent O:

Bah, was gonna full catch up in one sitting but these walls of text are hurting my brain and I'm going to have to take a break. For now here are my thoughts on the first 11 pages.

Spoiler: thoughts as I read through the game

P1 - RVS, blah. I joined the game for the same reason MagnaofIllusions did. Don't know anything of the flavor, just liked the playerlist and saw jason was the mod.

P2 - I don't like ThAdmiral, I like MagnaofIllusions. I think The FOnz might be buddying my player.

P3 - I thought the Furcow wagon was just joking. Xis seems to actually want him lynched though under the guise of it being pro-town based on meta. Don't really like it but it's only page 3 so whatever. I like Don't Lynch Me.

Sotty's peregrine vote is bleh.

Xis' 68 is overly defensive.

P4 - Bleh, don't like Zang's "leaning scum on xis, but you're logical so I won't vote you". The scumread gives him an excuse to vote him later on, but by just saying he's logical it allows him to get away with not voting. Don't like Furc's uh... posts. Zang's case on Jarvis is stupid. Not surprised ThAd latches onto Zang's jarvis case and rides it.

P5 - Xis' unvote of furc is confusing. He wants him policy lynched for being a VI, but then he unvotes him for being a VI. The fact that he simply unvotes and doesn't move his vote to someone else is suspicious. Still don't like Zang. Xis' case on ThAd feels too little too late and doesn't earn him any town points, but does not look like scum partner distancing. Likelyhood of Xis + ThAd team is low.

P6 - honestly these walls of text are getting annoying. Just skimmed it, but nothing really stood out.

P7 - Jarvis is still town. MoI's attack on him is dumb. Vig on yates is dumb. Oh wait it's fake. Yates is null-scum.

P8 - I will have to double check Yates' supposed self meta. Yates moving further into the scum pile with 198, making a bold assertion that ThAd won't flip scum and "all we'll have is wagon analysis"

P9 - Observation: Yates has not given any scum reads, but has defended both ThAd and Xis. I like Fonz pressure on yates

P10 - Continuing to like Fonz push on Yates. Zang is still pushing a bad case on Jarvis. Dont lynch me town read further solidified with his posts this page.

P11 - More ugly walls. Still think ThAd is scummy, his buddying of my slot is noted. I side with Fonz on the Fonz vs. Yates

Top scum reads are ThAd, Yates, Xis (biggest to smallest). I do not think ThAd + Xis would be scum together, Yates could be scum with either. Zang is more of a milder scumread, I could see him with either as well. Town reads on MagnaofIllusion, Jarvis, Don't lynch me, Sotty. Slightly weaker town read on The Fonz.

The rest (Furc, ree, Pere) are nullish, probably town just due to PoE, but if the scumteam isn't Yates/ThAd/Zang or Yates/Xis/Zang this is where I'd look next. Actually I have an ever-so-slight town read on Peregrine.

Just checked the flips, Sotty and Jarvis were town. I am awesome. Why hasn't ThAd been lynched?

I've bolded the mentions of Peregrine in both the spoiler and main text. Peregrine connection noted. In the spoiler he called Sotty's Peregrine vote blah, in the main text, I see cognitive dissonance. Peregrine is null, probably town due to POE, but maybe scum if he's wrong about any of his other 4 scum reads, but he has an ever so slight town read on Peregrine (just to prevent himself from ever having to vote him) Do not like that post.

Okay, all caught up for the most part. I did cheat a little bit and skim over a few pages because I got bored but I think I've got the gist of this game.

Spoiler: P12 - P22

P12/13 (lost count somewhere) - Yate's 298 "Not scumhunting doesn't make me scummy it makes me ineffectual" is a laughably bad defense. Yates' blind defense of ThAd is starting to look more like white knighting than buddy defending. However his defending of Xis is weaker and looks less like white knighting and more like straight buddy defending. Mr_Ree's "ThAd and Jarvis are scummy, vote: Jarvis because he will give more information" is bad. Voting for information isn't the scummy part - I've done the same as town when having to choose between two equally scummy players. The scummy part is that he actually thinks Jarvis Lynch will give more than ThAd (I strongly disagree with that) and doesn't state what information specifically he'd get out of it.

Can someone explain 311? The flavor is Rolls, ring, bird? Or actually explain the flavor at all?

P14 -

Peregrine - 7 town reads really? and 1 scum read? Then scrolling down, your reasoning for 5 of them are essentially "they're playing to town meta" with no other reasoning. Yuck. Peregrine moving towards scum read.

Have to check Ree's meta, mainly to see if Fonz meta attack on him is justified.

P15 - I don't understand DLM's jump onto the Jarvis wagon.
P16 - Xis' jump onto Jarvis is just as bad as DLM's. Actually no, maybe not, I haven't been paying attention to deadlines to it's possible this is a deadline vote.

P17 - Fonz looking more and more town. ThAd still looking scum. Will have to analyze the flips in a separate post

P18 -

Ree thinks the D1 wagons look worst for Amrun/Lanthir but votes Pere?

I like MoI's point about ThAd looking scummy according to his own criteria of night kill analysis (post 439). MagnaofIllusion vs Fonz is town/town.

P19 - MagnaofIllusion's case on ThAd is spot on. Case on Fonz, not so much. MagnaofIllusion vs. Fonz is still town/town

P20 - Yates sheeping the amrun wagon "just to see what happens" is an excuse I see from scum more than town. Oh my god this page stop walling, excuse me for skimming most of this.

P21 - Zang's 516 looks town and legitimate scumhunting. Speaking of which, last few pages make Pere seem more town than scum.

P22 - Too many walls. I'll read this later.

So, as scum, on page 4, I had to make up a reason not to vote for someone who I said I was leaning scum on?

Yes, that's what I said.

Also, how was my case on Jarvis bad? and how did ThAd latch onto my case when he never voted for Jarvis and even later in the day, called Jarvis town?

Your case (I assumed you're talking about the one on page 4) is bad because it's entirely based on him flip flopping on page 4. That is not something scum do, scum try to look as consistent in their reads as possible early on and especially don't flip flop within a span of 5 posts. That's something town does actually. Scum very rarely "scumslip" like that, and it seems like you're grasping at straws for a scum motivation when there is none. But that is neither here nor there. No point arguing over a dead player's alignment.

He latches on because he doesn't start pointing out Jarvis' inconsistencies until a case has already been made on him. And the fact that he doesn't vote him just means he can push the lynch further without getting his hands dirty with an actual vote. And how was I supposed to know ThAd would just drop the case and call him town later on? This was my thoughts, AT THAT MOMENT when reading post 95/96.

~~
Still like MoI. Still like DLM. Still like Fonz.

Peregrine can be town for now.

ThAd and Yates are obvious scum and will get a separate case when I have time.
Lesser scumreads on Xis, Mr_Ree
Furc is bleh. Wouldn't be sad to see him gone.
I retract my previous scumread on Zang. He can be town (for now), not a super strong town read but less scummy than above and he doesn't look as bad starting day 2 after the jarvis lynch, and makes good points here and there so I can chalk his thirst for jarvis blood d1 to town tunnel vision.
I'm a bit conflicted. I think ThAd and Yates are both scum, but I don't think they're scum together based on Yate's hardcore defending of him. Actually ThAd doesn't seem to make much sense with any of my scumreads except Mr_Ree and maybe Furc. I still wouldn't be against lynching him obviously.

P14. Thanks, I forgot to mention that. He does that twice btw. I thought it was three times before I went back over everything and found that one of them was quoted from earlier. Which post(s) brought you from this scum read to your town read on him(P21) and your final read-through-reads?

P18, Clarification. Amrun had the scummiest vote on Jarvis' wagon, Peregrine had the worst vote on my wagon, plus I suspected him for additional reasons at the time.

I suppose I'm tunnelling on Peregrine a wee bit. I'm pretty convinced about him being scum though.

@Orange welcome to the game. I'm assuming this is an alt account? You don't seem all that new to Mafia despite your recent join date.

That is correct.

Post 544 is scummy. You specifically say you replaced in based on a good playerlist not the theme. To look at the playerlist you would have had to look at which specifically shows Jarvis and Sotty already flipped Town.

“But MoI” you say “I knew the playerlist from the queue. I didn’t read the first post”. I don’t see how you managed to read the first 11 pages without seeing post 0 in the process.

I specifically avoided looking at the OP so that I could read the thread with a fresh unbiased perspective. How did I know the player list then? First of all, I had an idea of what players were in the game because I have spent a lot of time in the Coney Islant subforum following other different games, and noticed a pattern of certain players being in the "Last post by" column for this game. Without actually reading the game, it doesn't take a genius to make the connection that "last post by MagnaofIllusions in inbetweeners" means "MagnaofIllusions is in this game". When I was looking for a game to join, I didn't feel like waiting around in a queue so I looked at the replacement thread. Jason's was the only game that needed a replacement. I knew jason's games have similar player lists and recalled that I had seen many familiar faces in the "last post by column". Obviously I didn't have the entire player list committed to memory, but I had an idea. Then when I was making the final decision of whether to replace in or not I glanced at the last page of the game just to be sure and to see exactly what I was getting into.

Now you may be asking why I would look at the last page of the thread instead of the first. When scoping a game to decide whether I want to replace I don't really look at the first posts of the game, that doesn't make sense. I look at the later posts because that's a more accurate sample of the state the game is in and who I will be playing with.

Plus, like I said, I would rather have an unbiased perspective when reading over a game, so I deliberately avoid reading the OP anyway if I know I'm going to replace in.

So that post looks like “Oh, look how accurate I am! I had both already dead Town as such. I must be Town!”

That's stupid. Being right =/= being town. I was just congratulating myself out loud, because I enjoy being right about things.

Make you a deal – you work extra hard gathering the votes to lynch ThAd and if his wagon exclipses yours I probably join you. How’s that sound for a fair chance for you to

bus

scum-hunt?

Make you a better deal. Since you've made it clear ThAdmiral is a stronger scum read than me, you move to his wagon as soon as it gets one extra vote. You move your vote then, and we have a wagon of 3, same size as mine but with more momentum to it and on obvious scum.

Of course, I will still be hard at work getting ThAd lynched regardless of where you place your vote today, just give me time and I will have a proper case on him.

I really dislike this post. All kinds of bad. You honestly expect us to believe you didn't look at post 0 when you replaced in? When you were MAKING THE DECISION whether or not to replace in? How would not reading the OP give you an unbiased perspective? You haven't done a good job of defending yourself from MOI. I'd like to see your proper case. Your deal reeks of scum.

@Orange: What other name do you go by? Have you ever played a game with MOI before? I only ask because it really looks like you are trying to buddy him.

Dave.
I've played enough to know that he's always this arrogant and snappy no matter what his alignment. And believe me, if I was scum trying to buddy someone I would not pick him.

Why not if you thought it would get you off his back? It was a good try, just a little obvious. Who would you pick?

At this point I'd be willing to lynch either one of the two. Peregrine or Agent O. Enough for now, bedtime

[Mr_Ree]

EBWOP:

@MOD: Please remove the extra post

[Mr_Ree]

Reading up. Will try to get to everything tonight. Would still prefer Peregrine but willing to settle for Furc. His contributions have been non-existent.

Not sure how I feel about the claim. Was the target supposed to justify the buddying? It seems convenient, nevertheless he should be left alive for the time being.

[Mr_Ree]

Will take another look over things before bed. Give furc a chance to claim before the hammer. If he hasn't posted by 1 hour to deadline and MOI isn't around I'm willing to hammer.

@XIS, no on Agent O, we have no reason to lynch a claimed JK today, even if he's been so obviously scummy all day.

[Mr_Ree]

Vote Thad

Information is information, what does it matter Yates? I'm assuming MOI investigated him.

[Mr_Ree]

I'm will McKenzie, my role has some description about my character. I'm the briefcase wanker, my mouth gets me into trouble etc.

I don't believe no ones even asked "what information?".

Any name counters? I doubt Will would be scum. He is the main character.

@MOI: How sure are you about your information?

[Mr_Ree]

True enough. It's hard to believe that the main character would be a safe claim though.... or vanilla for that matter.

Meh, I'm not about to argue with a guilty. Get the rope.

[Mr_Ree]

I love it when everything gets wrapped up like this. Good Game everyone

I'd like to get confirmation from MOI that he is cop and got a guilty on Thad. If so, you know your target Xis, Protect MOI.

P-edit: Yates said: "Well, you are now a nice fat juicy target for an NK. Which is a role I had just recently acquired."

Could you explain this Yates?

[Mr_Ree]

Fair enough, but assuming Xis and MOI are telling the truth (I have no reason not to believe either one), MOI will be protected tonight.

[Mr_Ree]

Polly McKenzie, VT,

I had to laugh when I realized that almost everyone has a female role. Go Jason!

Just waiting on Zang now.

[Mr_Ree]

Well, you are now a nice fat juicy target for an NK. Which is a role I had just recently acquired. ThAd is going to be lynched. Night is going to happen. You *would* have been safe. And morning would arrive for further discussion.

Care to explain now Yates?

Vote MOI

[Mr_Ree]

Vla for holidays. Back Thursday.

[Mr_Ree]

I'm with DLM. I'd still like to hear what he has to say before we Lynch him.

Why is nobody else voting?

[Mr_Ree]

Vla ended today.

It just seems convenient. You say you just got a night kill and suddenly there are two dead townies, including the Doc that you said *would* have lived. You were also the only one who didn't claim. Name or otherwise.

[Mr_Ree]

At the very least, I would like Yates to claim whether he was responsible for that.

Guys - I do not have a kill role. I don't know where this is coming from.

Well, you are now a nice fat juicy target for an NK. Which is a role I had just recently acquired.

I was willing to overlook it yesterday when it seemed like you were just dicking around. Now that everything you've said has come to pass, it's hard to ignore. I KNOW you didn't miss my first post of the day and since MOI isn't back yet, I see no harm in asking you for further answers.

[Mr_Ree]

My mistake then. Point withdrawn.

[Mr_Ree]

@Jason: can we get a prod on AO and MOI?

[Mr_Ree]

Are you still reading?

[Mr_Ree]

Slow game is slow. where is MOI?

[Mr_Ree]

Perfect! Good game everyone!

MOI had me at one point. I think what saved me was when he hammered me as town in a previous game. Made him think twice. That was the only game I lost on site.

Fonz expected to be nightkilled almost every night. We made strategies in case he did but thankfully it never came to that.

[Mr_Ree]

Sorry Sotty. What can i say but you got it right. You called Fonz and I day 1 so you had to go.

[Mr_Ree]

I've got to admit, I figured that out too. Thanks for the defense. If not for you and Zang I probably would have been lynched.

Fonz was the main reason we won. His knowledge of the players and possible setups made all the difference.

[Mr_Ree]

This ^ is exactly why you had to go.