Hard to spell
inbetweeners mafia Game Over - Bully for you!
-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
Question: am I the only furc fan around?
I like playing with him because he is readable for the most part.
In post 29, The Fonz wrote:Come on, Lanthir's too douchey to be scum.
This is probably true.
In post 30, Xisiqomelir wrote:In post 19, Lanthir wrote:I don't even know who Furcolow is
In post 20, Dont Vote Me wrote:In post 12, MagnaofIllusion wrote:@Peregrine, Zang and DLM– why are you ignoring the righteous Furc wagon?
What makes it so righteous?
I'm happy to provide you fine people some relevant meta:
Town-colo
Stars Aligned 3
Cold War Mafia
Cookie Thief Mafia
Scum-colo
Ohne Mafia <--- Top scumteam results in any MS game ever. Seriously if you don't read any of the others read this one (HINT: ZERO TOWN DEATHS BY GAME END)
New Designer Mafia
Trying way to hard to be helpful = scum.
vote: Xisiqomelir
edit: was already voting him. My rvs sense is stong.
Yeah, this guy is town. Way to righteous.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 41, Zang wrote:ThAdmiral wrote:Trying way to hard to be helpful = scum.
So town shouldn't try to be helpful?
Tryingway too hardto be helpful.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 43, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Oh, so you just happened to RVS scum at Post 32. Despite the fact that the post you are calling them scum for (Post 30) preceeds your ‘RVS’.
Hadn't read the game at this point. Came in, voted, left.
In post 43, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Scum to VI / Newb buddying engaged. Furc has draw ‘chuckle RVS votes’ for his reputation. What’s the easiest way to make sure you’ve got a likely sheep for the rest of the game? Defend a weak player as easily readable and then later read him as Town.
This would make sense if it were actually possible to predict/control furc. He is a wild force of nature and is more likely to think I'm scum for defending him than anything else (I'm pretty sure he did this in "cold war mafia" which xisq so kindly linked).
Also it would probably be more suspicious of me if it wasn't true and I hadn't expressed the same sentiment in previous games I've had with furc.
In post 43, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Thad wrote: Yeah, this guy is town. Way to righteous.
Yet another example of Exhibit B – deflect suspicion from a Newb by using what is clearly not an alignment tell at all (Righteousness? Fluff city) to call him Town. Fonz is also guilty of this play (he's too douchy to be scum is moronic).
Ok so my plan in the game so far is to rally all the vi's/noobs and form some sort of army that will magically do what I want because I called them town once, or indicated I enjoy playing with them?
Am I following correctly so far?
In post 43, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Thad wrote: Trying way too hard to be helpful.
Lulz.
Link me to all the completed games where I can see an example of you using this tell as Town to catch scum.
Also – link me to all your recent (as in the last year) Furc games.
Or don’t if you are scum and just want to roll over.
This is your case. If you want to trawl through my posting history to find evidence to support it then be my guest.
As far as me using the "too helpful" tell I would say it is a variant of the type of scum play where they think "better post a list of everyone in the game and my reads on them so it looks like I'm being super proactive".
It's actually sort of humorous that you accuse me of being scum for trying to get other players on side with me, whereas xisq is doing the same thing on a larger scale, yet he is not scum for it.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 47, Zang wrote:ThAdmiral wrote:Trying way too hard to be helpful.
I still don't understand. Town shouldn't try to be as helpful as they can? I agree that scum do sometimes fake helping the town but I don't understand how you would distinguish that from town actually trying to help as much as they can, which any townie should do.
This game is about interpreting behaviour based on motivation.
In post 49, Jarvis wrote:That's a pretty neato case. Be cool if I'd made it.
Unvote; Vote: ThAdmiral
I'm pretty unimpressed by no comment on it otherwise. I mean yeah okay Fonz promised more, but Mr Ree, Zang? Why do you feel no need to comment on pretty much the first case of the game?
Pedit: Ok Fonz can go on that list too. And to answer, I guess great minds, eh? Why should I be so hipst3r as to not vote with other people? Not really sure that I or anyone else actually suspected Furc though, it's kinda difficult to read people before they post.
Sheeping and omgusing in same post. Goodposting.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 52, Xisiqomelir wrote:In post 41, Zang wrote:
Xis wrote:Bookmarking this in my ISO for an LaL lynch tomorrow.
What are you trying to imply with the first line?
The first line isn't an implication at all, it's a clearly stated plan of action.
Why wait? If your case on me is so compelling maybe you'll convince a vig to kill me tonight (assuming furc gets lynched today because that's what's going to happen, right?)Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 58, Dont Vote Me wrote:VOTE: ThAdmiral
At first I thought he was just defending himself more than he was scumhunting. But then I saw he didn't want to provide his meta. I mean yeah, the amusing coincidence of ThAdmiral saying that being too helpful is scummy, and deliberately trying to be unhelpful, isn't lost on me. However, as stated, that's just amusing, not necessarily scummy.
One thing the bothered me is his "edit" to point out that his RVS vote was oh-so spot on. I can understand making an RVS mindlessly, and seeing it when you read through the thread to make your next post. But the "edit" seems to come from a point in time where ThAdmiral has already written the post and is looking back over his tracks to double-check everything. Completely more scum-driven than town-driven. Why wouldn't he catch what he said the first time he reads through before he makes the post? Why would he want to go back and look at his RVS in the time between typing his post and submitting it if it was just a mindless RVS? I do not have answers to these questions.
MoI also makes some decent points. Exhibit B I feel is the strongest point.
-KJ
My meta is there for anyone to see if they want to go through my game history.
"edit:" is a common form of syntax used here at mafiascum. not sure if you are aware of that or not.
(who are you a hydra of? Is kj killerjester?)Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 65, Zang wrote:ThAdmiral wrote:This game is about interpreting behaviour based on motivation.
I am aware of that. I am asking you what, specifically, Xis did to make you think that he is motivated to help the town because he is scum rather than because he is town.
I guess because no one had even asked for meta. He quoted a bunch of people saying "why furc" and then proceeded to give up a bunch of furc games. It was like he was looking for an opportunity to seem productive. And the "you fine people" thing; smacks of sucking up.
That's how it looked to me.
I really don't mind my vote on him for other reasons though. He's going with this whole faux-confident thing where he's all like "I've definitely caught scum, and they aredefinitelygoing to be lynched"/"I'm right about everything", but in reality it's largely bs. I really hate that style of play, it's so forced.
I still haven't decided whether he's a townie who's read ABR's "guide to mafia" and is trying to emulate it, or whether he's just faking it as scum, but either way I'm happy with my vote for now.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 74, Jarvis wrote:
I treat lists of reads as a scumtell. Posting that you have a town read on X and a null read on Y is really not necessary if you are town because it should be clear from the content of your posts. Scum-town lists are a cheap way of looking to be getting content in, and scum do it so they can be all like "look at all my town-motivatedreads".
I find that when someone hasn't posted in a while and then comes out with a list this is a scumtell. I believe in this situation scum often feel pressured to look like they have "done something useful" and, as you say, a list is an easy way to get content in.
Lists, however, are not a scumtell in and of themselves (especially if there is decent reasoning provided for why people are listed where they are) - they are fairly common here regardless of alignment.
In post 81, Dont Vote Me wrote:Can you list where he's flipflopped on the furc wagon 5 times (or as many as you can find)?
In post 82, Zang wrote:Post 22 - Jarvis comments on joining the furc wagon but instead votes lanthir. A weak stance that could easily be dismissed later as it was just in RVS.
Post 49 - He says that he was never really suspicious of him.
Post 51 - Says that he hoped the wagon would achieve a lynch. A much stronger stance despite never voting for furc. Completely contradicts what he just said.
Post 74 - Now he says that he is not pushing the wagon and would not hammer but still wouldn't complain about a furc lynch.
Post 78 - After being called out, he says that he's not at all in favor of the lynch.
I'm actually impressed you found 5 as I assumed this was probably exaggeration or bluster.
I had a look over those posts and have some further questions for jarvis:
In post 22, Jarvis wrote:PV, did I pick right?
I'm assuming this is some sort of in-joke, but what did you mean by this?
In post 49, Jarvis wrote:Pedit: Ok Fonz can go on that list too. And to answer, I guess great minds, eh? Why should I be so hipst3r as to not vote with other people? Not really sure that I or anyone else actually suspected Furc though, it's kinda difficult to read people before they post.
This is the most glaring inconsistency, especially given that they are 2 posts apart. Jarvis can you explain your thought process here?
In post 74, Jarvis wrote:
I don't know. I'm not a great believer in policy lynching, and I wouldn't be the one to hammer or even push the wagon towards a lynch, but I wouldn't have too many complaints if it went through.
Why would you not have any complaints if you don't agree with it?
In post 78, Jarvis wrote:Let's not have any pretence here, it was Fonz who brought up this theoretical if-you-voted-Furc line. I am not currently for his lynch.
You say "currently". Does this mean you were at some point?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 87, Mr_Ree wrote:A Lynch before confirmation does nothing but potentially eliminate two townies.
This isn't true. While I don't think it is a good idea it could catch scum by random, but even then it wouldn't be as useful as lynching them after they've spoken since there won't be any relation tells to gain from it.
In post 90, Furcolow wrote:How many votes are on MoI? He is fuckin' scum this game. Sheeping, and sucking Sotty's dick.
He's definitely sucking sotty's dick (or "bits" as the case may be), but can you explain the sheeping?Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 74, Jarvis wrote:
I treat lists of reads as a scumtell. Posting that you have a town read on X and a null read on Y is really not necessary if you are town because it should be clear from the content of your posts. Scum-town lists are a cheap way of looking to be getting content in, and scum do it so they can be all like "look at all my town-motivatedreads".
I find that when someone hasn't posted in a while and then comes out with a list this is a scumtell. I believe in this situation scum often feel pressured to look like they have "done something useful" and, as you say, a list is an easy way to get content in.
Lists, however, are not a scumtell in and of themselves (especially if there is decent reasoning provided for why people are listed where they are) - they are fairly common here regardless of alignment.
In post 81, Dont Vote Me wrote:Can you list where he's flipflopped on the furc wagon 5 times (or as many as you can find)?
In post 82, Zang wrote:Post 22 - Jarvis comments on joining the furc wagon but instead votes lanthir. A weak stance that could easily be dismissed later as it was just in RVS.
Post 49 - He says that he was never really suspicious of him.
Post 51 - Says that he hoped the wagon would achieve a lynch. A much stronger stance despite never voting for furc. Completely contradicts what he just said.
Post 74 - Now he says that he is not pushing the wagon and would not hammer but still wouldn't complain about a furc lynch.
Post 78 - After being called out, he says that he's not at all in favor of the lynch.
I'm actually impressed you found 5 as I assumed this was probably exaggeration or bluster.
I had a look over those posts and have some further questions for jarvis:
In post 22, Jarvis wrote:PV, did I pick right?
I'm assuming this is some sort of in-joke, but what did you mean by this?
In post 49, Jarvis wrote:Pedit: Ok Fonz can go on that list too. And to answer, I guess great minds, eh? Why should I be so hipst3r as to not vote with other people? Not really sure that I or anyone else actually suspected Furc though, it's kinda difficult to read people before they post.
This is the most glaring inconsistency, especially given that they are 2 posts apart. Jarvis can you explain your thought process here?
In post 74, Jarvis wrote:
I don't know. I'm not a great believer in policy lynching, and I wouldn't be the one to hammer or even push the wagon towards a lynch, but I wouldn't have too many complaints if it went through.
Why would you not have any complaints if you don't agree with it?
In post 78, Jarvis wrote:Let's not have any pretence here, it was Fonz who brought up this theoretical if-you-voted-Furc line. I am not currently for his lynch.
You say "currently". Does this mean you were at some point?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 87, Mr_Ree wrote:A Lynch before confirmation does nothing but potentially eliminate two townies.
This isn't true. While I don't think it is a good idea it could catch scum by random, but even then it wouldn't be as useful as lynching them after they've spoken since there won't be any relation tells to gain from it.
In post 90, Furcolow wrote:How many votes are on MoI? He is fuckin' scum this game. Sheeping, and sucking Sotty's dick.
He's definitely sucking sotty's dick (or "bits" as the case may be), but can you explain the sheeping?Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
@ moi: I'm not going to quote pyramid reply to every one of your points because then you'll just reply in kind and the back and forth gets really tiring. I'll try to reply to each major point you brought up though, and furthermore I will try to be brief so this doesn't get out of hand and become a wall of text between us that no one else reads.
As far as me not providing meta for a "you're trying to hard"/"too helpful" example from myself from an earlier game I'm 100% sure I have used it before but frankly I have neither the time nor inclination to look through my history to find one. The example you brought up from saw mafia, in which I was meh about you trying to hard, doesn't really count because, lets face it, youalwaystry to hard. You're trying to hard now, for instance.
As to your second point (me currying favour with weaker/noob players) it is flawed for a couple of reasons. Firstly I happen to think being unnecessarily abrasive, particularly to more experienced players like yourself, is indeed a towntell. It indicates a "I don't really care what you think about me" vibe which is more likely to come from town. Secondly I never even called furc town, just that I enjoy games with him.
Also yes I was town in coldwar mafia, we both were in fact.
I agree - currying favour is indeed a good strategy for scum. But I think this is simply a misinterpretation of my actions.
Furthermore if I am guilty of it by your standards, I stand by my sentiment that xisq is also guilty of it, as well as yourself (mainly in regards to sotty). I know you will say this is scummy because I am "deflecting" or whatever, but it is also undeniable.
I responded to zang with more detail at a later stage. Post 67.
As far as sheeping goes - it doesn't always have to be a scumtell, but in this instance I think it was. Jarvis' 49 did not read as genuine, and is a bad post overall. He says "the case is neat" but doesn't explain why, asks other people to comment on it (which reads as trying to get others to push forward any potential wagon), and then adds fonz to his "list" after he realises he voted him.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 101, Jarvis wrote:ThAd wrote:I'm assuming this is some sort of in-joke, but what did you mean by this?
I'm not really sure about that assumption. It's just a question - i.e. was my vote better than a Furc vote?
Why did you specifically ask pv?
In post 101, Jarvis wrote:ThAd wrote:This is the most glaring inconsistency, especially given that they are 2 posts apart. Jarvis can you explain your thought process here?
Not really an inconsistency. Don't need a scumread to lynch someone. Not that I was the only one heading that way, but refer back to previous thoughts about not being upset.
I think we will have to agree to disagree here as I would rather no-lynch than lynch someone I didn't have a scumread on. Although that is not a widely held belief (afaik) I would imagine most people would say you generally need a scumread to lynch someone.
@ xisq post 102
1) no
2) probably
3) because I don't like you, and would rather keep any interaction with you to a minimum
Actually I do have a question for you:
Are you now trying to squirm out of any responsibility for a pre-confirm furc wagon by saying it was all a joke?
In post 108, The Fonz wrote:This portion of the post contained a lengthy MOI rebuttal, but I've decided life's too short and deleted it.
Made me lol.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
So what's going to happen is I keep saying no, maybe you decide to put votes on me, then I go "fine - here xxxx game, happy now" and you go "ok, I guess you were right" and then you take the votes off.
Why not save the time and avoid all the hassle?
I don't even get this line of argument. Lets say I hadn't used that argument before - does that make it an invalid argument on it's own merits? Do I have to have a precedence for each and every one of my arguments for them to be deemed acceptable (which brings up a fairly obvious logical quandry because therehasto be a first time for everything).
This is all just hypothetical because, again, I'm sure I have used this argument/similar variants of it before - but it is food for thought.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 125, Zang wrote:ThAdmiral wrote:I'm afraid its a matter of principle now.
If you are town, this is absolutely not a reason to get yourself lynched.
I disagree. This is a very beneficial precedent that I'm more than happy to set for myself.
One game where I'm lynched compared to a lifetime in which I don't have to provide self meta? I'll take that deal any day of the week and twice on tuesday!Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 148, The Fonz wrote:So basically... I think this meta thing is likely overblown, but ThAd is being a bit of a dick about it.
In truth I am, but I genuinely don't like being pestered about my meta and I feel questions like "prove that you've used this argument before" are sort of rude, and more importantly ignore the actual point of the argument which should be judged on its own merits rather than whether the player happens to have used it before.
I explained my stance in 67 - I really should have been judged on that not on whether I've used it before. As you can see it's caused quite a distraction in this game (which I am partially responsible for, yes).
In post 150, The Fonz wrote:No, but I kind of think I get where MOI is coming from here? (First time for everything). Like, if you think something is a scumtell, then you should have used it at some point in the past, unless you've only recently decided it is scummy, in which case you'd be able to explain what caused that change in your thinking. If you're attacking something you've never before used as town, there's a decent likelihood you're just scum using the argument that comes to hand rather than because you believe in it.
Well...I agree, it is not entirely baseless, and if I was actually asked nicely rather than with the smarmy know-it-all way moi went about it and xisq followed up onmaaaaaybeI actually would have been bothered to have a look in my past games. As sotty referenced I'm generally not like this. But fuck me moi and xisq are pushing my buttons this game.
In post 161, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Vig: Yates
I don't give a flying fuck if he is Town - that attitude just has to go. Hell I can't believe I have been forced to NOT use it on Furc by someone posting worse than he usually does ...
In post 162, Yates wrote:Peace out. Hope you enjoy the loss.
If this was real it would have been used on me so I doubt it's actually real.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 174, Sotty7 wrote:In post 166, ThAdmiral wrote:Well...I agree, it is not entirely baseless, and if I was actually asked nicely rather than with the smarmy know-it-all way moi went about it and xisq followed up onmaaaaaybeI actually would have been bothered to have a look in my past games. As sotty referenced I'm generally not like this. But fuck me moi and xisq are pushing my buttons this game.
This is terrible and scummy and my voting is really staying now.
I'm gonna read this game some more tomorrow. Tired and I seem to be drowning a little in the back and forth. Day off tomorrow though, so yay.
Can you explain why?
This goes to everyone who thinks I'm "scum": why is stubborness a scumtell?Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
@ xisq: As I said it doesn't have to be rude to ask for meta, but certainly the way that you and moi did was.
I never said it was a great exertion. I said I wasn't going to do it because (I believe these were my exact words) "I have neither the time nor the inclination".
As far as the case in 151 - I feel like I've already responded most if not all of these, but again briefly so you don't pop a vein in your forehead:
1. I've definitely said this a million times: I wasn't buddying I was just giving my opinion.
2. I'm laughing off points that I find laughable.
3. I definitely already explained this as well. I did provide reasoning for what I thought was xisq's scum motivation, so this point is null.
4. There is no need for me to "push" xisq for interactions. He is doing plenty of talking for the both of us.
5. I have explained my actions and thought process in regards to everything I have done in this game. Jarvis didn't in that post, so once again the point is null.
And no I'm not going to claim MoI or Fonz were "trying to hard" because they actually had a reason to do the meta-searching they did - MoI solely to bolster his case without any intention to analyse, and Fonz to fairly assess whether the case on me actually had merit (surprise: it didn't).
In post 175, Xisiqomelir wrote:What do you perceive to be genuine about it? Do you base this opinion on prior experience with Jarvis, or some other basis?
It reads genuine because it doesn't seem forced, over the top or false. It is based on my prior experience trying to read hundreds of newer players.
In post 178, Xisiqomelir wrote:In post 177, Dont Vote Me wrote:
Is that your pretentious way for asking about my scumreads? My vote speaks toward that end.
I don't at all see what was pretentious about it, but apparently I'm giving offense left and right in this game while being perfectly oblivious.
Dickheads generally are. Otherwise they probably wouldn't be dickheads.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 187, MagnaofIllusion wrote:In post 186, Zang wrote:If I think that something is scummy now, it's rather likely that I will still think that it is scummy one year from now.
Yes I agree. However if there is a Tell (in this case the "Trying Too Hard") that someone believes in that isn't very unusual (and "Trying Too Hard" is hardly a niche element) you would think that Town ThAd would have used it in a meaningful and successful fashion over the last year's worth of games. No evidence exists that he has. Thus one aspect of his play that I find scummy - that he is using 'Tells of Connivance' as opposed to honestly scum-hunting.
Hey moi can you link me to every game you've ever used the phrase "tells of connivance" in?
Both scum and town thanks.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 190, MagnaofIllusion wrote:In post 188, ThAdmiral wrote:And no I'm not going to claim MoI or Fonz were "trying to hard" because they actually had a reason to do the meta-searching they did -MoI solely to bolster his case without any intention to analyse, and Fonz to fairly assess whether the case on me actually had merit (surprise: it didn't).
Oh really? So in regards to the bolded -
Am I scum trying to mislynch you?
You are specifically trying to assert Post 151 is in no way analysis?
The annoying thing about you, MoI, is that you tend to do that as both town and scum. When you have someone in your sights you get blinkered.
Also not providing your meta??? That's like totally a scumtell bro!
In post 191, Yates wrote:ThAd, you have been off your game of late. You are about to get lynched here. You were shot in the face Town in another game. You aren't contributing in another. What's up?
Is it really they way you were asked or is it because it doesn't exist? I don't even necessarily think it's scummy to *think* you had used that in the past when you hadn't but since YOU brought it up, you really should post the proof or admit your mistake. You are kind of in a weird spot here where admitting your mistake this late in the game isn't going to help your cause. I realize you are trying to prove a point but the above post to MoI is childish and very dissimilar from your own situation.
You almost have me convinced to vote for you as well.
Fuck you yates. How was me getting shot by someone I'm convinced is either scum or an idiot my fault at all? That annoyed the fuck out of me because I was just starting to get in to that game - but that's an ongoing, no more talking about it.
I don't know what other game I'm not contributing in.
It REALLY was the way I was asked. Have you not read the game - fonz brought up my meta and showed I'd used it several times. Even MoI, although he tried his darndest to dismiss it, had to admit I'd used it at least once in the last year.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 194, Yates wrote:In post 192, ThAdmiral wrote:Even MoI, although he tried his darndest to dismiss it, had to admit I'd used it at least once in the last year.
Would you please show me where? I must have missed it in my review and MoI ISO.
Here:
In post 122, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Post 1901 – Judge for yourself on this post. It’s a one-liner where ThAd tells Castle Bravo (a GreyICE alt) he is trying way too hard. He does eventually vote for him but no further posts indicating this a scum-tell are to be had. CastleBravo was a Town Vengeful in this game.
Also I would argue this from the same post is actually another similar use, even though MoI brought it up for a different reason:
In post 122, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Post 1524 in that game wrote: Look at Charlie rushing to please whiskers. "would you like me to do a point by point reply, sir", "is there anything else you need to be more comfortable, sir".
Also trying to gain points with dash by calling him confirmed town now. He's been obv town for a while bro.
That, particularly the first line, I believe falls under the category of me accusing someone of being "too helpful", and also is very similar to what I accused xisq of in this game when he called people "you fine sirs" when he provided the furc meta.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 195, Zang wrote:ThAdmiral wrote:I never said it was a great exertion. I said I wasn't going to do it because (I believe these were my exact words) "I have neither the time nor the inclination".
So saying that it's takes too long and that you don't want too is diferent than saying it's a great exertion?
Yes. Great exertion ignores the "inclination" part which is at least half of it. And I wouldn't say it is "great" effort, which would be an exaggeration.
In post 195, Zang wrote:ThAdmiral wrote:1. I've definitely said this a million times: I wasn't buddying I was just giving my opinion.
Regardless of how many times that you've said it, that does not make it true.
Yes but it doesn't make it untrue, and more to the point moi saying the opposite a million times doesn't make that true either.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 214, Sotty7 wrote:Because it's not the stubbornness as such, it's more you saying that you would have done it but because MoI was a jerk you didn't. This is you once again turning the tables on the argument and forcing the blame and focus back on MoI. This is one big giant cop out. "This is all their fault!" detracting from the point against you.
Not true. I've admitted multiple times that I'm being a dick.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 215, Zang wrote:ThAdmiral wrote:Yes. Great exertion ignores the "inclination" part which is at least half of it. And I wouldn't say it is "great" effort, which would be an exaggeration.
So then why not do it if it wasn't such a great effort? I don't understand why you didn't have the "inclination".
I have already explained this - because I was asked in an abrasive way I got stubborn and didn't feel like complying. This coupled with the fact that it would have taken some time, not heaps but certainly a bit, to do I said "fuck it" and decided not to do it.
In post 215, Zang wrote:ThAdmiral wrote:Yes but it doesn't make it untrue, and more to the point moi saying the opposite a million times doesn't make that true either.
That's true but he isn't just saying it, he's backing it up with evidence.
He provided evidence that I agree currying favour is something scum do. But am I currying favour here?
I said lanth is probably town because he was being unnecessarily prickly. I thinks that's a town tell. Whether you agree or disagree is up to you.
I also said I enjoy playing with furc. This is also true, and not something I've made up.
If you look at my meta (lol!) you will find examples of me saying both of these things before meaning they are in line with my usual character.
His stance that I am trying to be nice to everyone and curry favour falls flat for a number of reasons:
1) why would I try to curry favour with some players, but then be openly hostile with others (eg. moi, xisq). Doesn't seem to fit in to the plan of me trying to get in people's good books.
2) I didn't even indicate that I thought furc was town, just that I enjoy playing with him. I'm literally bemused this was even brought up in the first place.
3) I know that moi keeps saying that it is scummy for me to mention this but xisq and moi are both guilty (imoguiltier!) of the exact same thing. This is much worse due to the fact that they are attacking me with this tell due to hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance.
Note that as far as I can remember moi/xisq have never refuted the point that they were trying to curry favour/buddy with people.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 222, Sotty7 wrote:In post 216, ThAdmiral wrote:In post 214, Sotty7 wrote:Because it's not the stubbornness as such, it's more you saying that you would have done it but because MoI was a jerk you didn't. This is you once again turning the tables on the argument and forcing the blame and focus back on MoI. This is one big giant cop out. "This is all their fault!" detracting from the point against you.
Not true. I've admitted multiple times that I'm being a dick.
So?
So: I'm not solely blaming MoI.
That being said I don't think it'sentirelymy fault either. As they say: "it takes two to tango".Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
@ dlm: can you tell me your current read on me. I know you are voting me but certainly in the earlier stages of the game you weren't convinced I was scum and were imploring me to look through my history and stop being belligerent (116, 118). As far as I can tell you only really seemed certain of me being scum after I said I still wasn't going to check my self-meta so that I would be able to set a precedent for myself.
Since then you have discussed other people and the xisq wagon as a whole. Do you still think I am scummy for being stubborn? What are your thoughts on MoI's other points?
@ sotty: At one stage you thought I was posting pretty good (this is early in the game after I explained my reason for voting xisq more thoroughly). You then voted me in 120 when I continued to refuse to give self-meta. You later stated, however, that you weren't sure what my stubbornness indicated (147). But you seemed to come to the conclusion that I am scum after I said moi and xisq asked me in an abrasive way (which you interpreted as me shifting the blame to them). Do you think it is fair, however, to say that it takes two to tango? Or do you think that I should accept full responsibility for the situation we have found ourselves in? Furthermore can you explain why it would be more town for me to do one thing or the other?Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 233, Zang wrote:ThAdmiral wrote:I have already explained this - because I was asked in an abrasive way I got stubborn and didn't feel like complying. This coupled with the fact that it would have taken some time, not heaps but certainly a bit, to do I said "fuck it" and decided not to do it.
What do you usually do when asked for meta?
I probably whine for a bit and then give it.
In post 233, Zang wrote:I think that ThAdmiral is scummy because of his refusal to post meta and for completely changing his position on Jarvis.
As to the first part of that you clarified your position here:
In post 173, Zang wrote:At least for me, I don't think that you are scummy because you can't provide meta for a scumread. I think it's scummy that you won't provide meta but insist that you have it.
Do you think from the meta brought up by MoI and Fonz indicates I have or haven't used that tell in the past/believe in that tell. Does this matter, or is the refusal itself the scummy part? If so, why?
As to the second part please explain why my flip on jarvis is scummy? Without wanting to go to far in to wifom here if I did want to try and get someone else lynched jarvis is probably the most obvious next option. Why do you think it was scummy of me that I decided that he read town to me, rather than continuing to pursue him as a suspect?Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
@ dlm:
1) Once again this is down to interpretation (and you and moi are interpreting wrong) but this will all come out in the wash. Tell me, however, do you think moi and xis were also guilty of it? If you do believe it as a tell, that is.
2) Yeah I think you were right when you said "laughing off points you find laughable". What I think you have to understand is the for this response (which is what MoI is talking about with this point):
In post 55, ThAdmiral wrote:It's actually sort of humorous that you accuse me of being scum for trying to get other players on side with me, whereas xisq is doing the same thing on a larger scale, yet he is not scum for it.
I was indeed refuting it by pointing out the inconsistency which MoI was using it, since xisq was doing it and wasn't called for it. And further MoI was even doing it himself (this is unquestionable). That I disagreed with it was implied.
And how, exactly, am I supposed to "refute" something based on interpretation anyway?
Seriously. Can someone answer me this? How am I supposed to refute the argument that I was "buddying" lanthir and furc other than saying "no, I'm not". Which I did say. Several times.
3. I explained my stance on Xisq here. How has everyone missed this even after I've told people about it many times now:
In post 67, ThAdmiral wrote:
I guess because no one had even asked for meta. He quoted a bunch of people saying "why furc" and then proceeded to give up a bunch of furc games. It was like he was looking for an opportunity to seem productive. And the "you fine people" thing; smacks of sucking up.
That's how it looked to me.
I really don't mind my vote on him for other reasons though. He's going with this whole faux-confident thing where he's all like "I've definitely caught scum, and they aredefinitelygoing to be lynched"/"I'm right about everything", but in reality it's largely bs. I really hate that style of play, it's so forced.
I still haven't decided whether he's a townie who's read ABR's "guide to mafia" and is trying to emulate it, or whether he's just faking it as scum, but either way I'm happy with my vote for now.
4. Well I don't like xis. I just know that any argument with xisq is going to morph in to a huge wall-post deathmatch. I realise I am going to have to do that at some stage but I've been avoiding it.
5. Well you disagree with MoI here, so cool.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 238, Xisiqomelir wrote:I will note, as Yates already has, that aside from the options of providing the link or not providing it, you also have the third option of retracting your assertion. Do you stand by it?
Yes, furthermore I believe that the examples brought up prove I have used it in the past. Do you agree or disagree?
In post 238, Xisiqomelir wrote:Are you generally successful at reading newer players? What is your opinion of Lanthir and Mr_Ree?
I think I'm fairly good at reading newer players. I think lanthir is probably town, I'm not sure about ree.
In post 238, Xisiqomelir wrote:Charming. Is this more or less rude than asking for evidence to support an assertion?
More rude. I'm not 100% sure why but you have gotten on my nerve in this game more than anyone else I remember in recent history on this site. I'm sure it is a combination of factors both in game and irl, but as a result I have been surly and crass in my responses to you and I apologise for that. It is clear to say that we have gotten off on the wrong foot but from now on I will cease being derisive of your character and only respond to the arguments you bring up, as any player should do in a game of mafia.
Once again, sorry for being a dick.
In post 238, Xisiqomelir wrote:I think "you fine people" is really more like generic polite language (e.g. "ladies and gentlemen") than an attempt to buddy. In game terms it makes no statement about the quality of opinions or the possibility of alignments. I will not refute the point that it is non-neutral in tone.
I also think the sentiment that anyone who got on your furc wagon would be seen as town is a sort of buddying, but ok, agree to disagree.
I do have a question for you though: in the early parts of the game you referred to me a few times as "lying scum". Can you please explain what I was lying about?Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
@ sotty:
I reread the post where I thought you were saying this but I must have misread it as if you were talking about me in the last line, and not xisq which is clearly the case. My bad.
In post 73, Sotty7 wrote:In post 67, ThAdmiral wrote:I guess because no one had even asked for meta. He quoted a bunch of people saying "why furc" and then proceeded to give up a bunch of furc games. It was like he was looking for an opportunity to seem productive. And the "you fine people" thing; smacks of sucking up.
That's how it looked to me.
Seemed more like a chance to let everyone know he is an alt of someone. I can understand where your vote is coming from though. It was kinda know-it-all-ish. Still don't find it scummy though, the rest of his posting has been pretty good in my opinion.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 245, Zang wrote:The refusal to provide meta itself is what I find scummy. You have made a claim but you refuse to back it up. It's as if I called you scum but never explained why I thought so. This is very scummy.
But you still haven't said why.
To break down what you just said here, you've said:
1. "The refusal to provide meta itself is what I find scummy." - a statement reiterating your position thatit isscummy, without explanation ofwhyit is scummy.
2. "You have made a claim but you refuse to back it up." - a statement of fact regardingwhatI did, without explanation ofwhyit is scummy.
3. "It's as if I called you scum but never explained why I thought so." - an analogy describingwhatI did, without explanation ofwhyit is scummy.
4. "This is very scummy." - the reiteration of you stance thatit isscummy, without explanation.....I think you get the point.
Can you explain to me the scum motivation for what I did?
In post 245, Zang wrote:Originally, after I made my first case against Jarvis, you were supportive of it and similarly to Jarvis and the furc wagon, you were supportive of the wagon but never actually voted for him. At that moment, it would seem like you were scumhunting and later in the game, with Jarvis dead, you could point to those posts and say that you thought he was scummy.
Now, however, you just come out and say that you think he is town with little reasoning. I think that this is because you noticed how much support his wagon was getting and because of how you are generally, the town's biggest scum suspect, you realized how bad it would be to try and push a Jarvis lynch because as you just said, he would probably be the town's next lynch. If you were both scum, that would leave two scum dead by the end of day two.
There's a lot of speculation here. I understand that is what you do in a game of mafia.
Do you not concede, however, that the simplest explanation (which, as is often the case, is the correct one here) is that I just had a change of heart regarding jarvis?Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
@ dlm: You sound like someone who has already made his mind up. I get the feeling trying to rebut your points is going to be a waste of time for me, but I'll do it anyway.
In post 246, Dont Vote Me wrote:1. Can you cite where you thought Xis and MoI were buddying newbs/VIs?
Ok, not necessarily newbs/vis. (does this make my point invalid, I'm going to guess you will say "yes")
MoI clearly buddied up to sotty in the early parts of the game (check posts 12 and 43). It could be also argued that he was buddying xisq by supporting his furc wagon so much.
In post 99 he also adds zang to his townlist after saying "I like Zang’s contributions to the game thusfar" without any extra explanation.
Xisq provided meta to lanthir, dlm and rees calling them "you fine people". There was also the implication that if you followed the furc wagon you would be seen as "town".
He also claimed that fonz was "playing like town in my eyes" (52) without any explanation why.
NOTE: I don't think the buddying argument against me was founded. I don't think it is founded against moi and xisq either. But,and this is the important part, I do believe it is a contradiction to say that I was guilty of it and they weren't. Do you understand now?
In post 246, Dont Vote Me wrote:What were you trying to achieve with the comment on Furc? I don't think being easily readable has any bearing on alignment, so why should it even factor in to whether the Furc wagon was good or bad? Or did you really believe Furc was being wagoned because the players didn't enjoy playing with him? On Lanthir, what does righteousness have to do with alignment?
Skipped a bit there about "tu quoque" etc. as it was quite a long quote, but I think this is the important part as it is actually something I can respond to.
What I was trying to achieve by my furc comment was to not get him lynched, because I believe he is readable. I don't think being readable has any bearing on alignment either, but I do think it has a bearing on, you know, being readable. I thought it would be a better idea to let him post than, you know, lynching him before he could post. That's what I was trying to achieve.
Trust me when I tell you - you can't buddy furc. He is unpredictable and will be just as likely to call you scum for buddyinghimselfif you try to defend him/befriend him than "join forces" with you or whatever moi was suggesting was my plan.
I did believe furc was getting wagoned because people didn't enjoy playing with him. Did you think that wasn't the case?
"Righteousness", or what otherwise could be described as a smug sense of superiority, is a trait, I believe, far more likely to come from town than scum. In all of lanthir's posts up until the one I commented on he displayed this in various ways which I will show here at length:
In post 14, Lanthir wrote:Why not?
MoI, why wasn't I included in your asking for Furc wagoners list?
The "why not" was in response to a question of "why moi" as he voted moi in his first post. It indicates that he believes his choice is as good as any.
He then asks why he wasn't included on the list, once again indicating that he feels he deserves to be mentioned.
In post 16, Lanthir wrote:Moron
This is in response to moi calling him scum. I don't really think this one needs explaining.
In post 17, Lanthir wrote:You can't try to steer the town on Page 1. I don't know you, I don't know how good you are, but I don't know why people would follow you.
This is also in response to moi. He implies that he is better/knows more than moi as he is attempting to instruct moi.
In post 19, Lanthir wrote:I don't even know who Furcolow is, so I have no idea why you've got this deep-seated obsession with him. I have no experience on this site, so I voted for you because that's where my gut told me to go. Your responses and subsequent posts have made me quite confident that you are the right vote at the moment.
Here he shows strong conviction in his beliefs, which is further evidence of self-righteousness.
Here he makes a derisive comment on my rvs vote (it is fairly clear he doesn't really understand the rvs stage and takes my comment as a serious one), implying that it is a bad one and that I could and should do better.
All in all - tons of righteousness. I highly doubt it is faked as well.
In post 246, Dont Vote Me wrote:3. The issue is Xis was going tunnel vision before Furc even posted. He can't argue that "I'm right about everything" because there was nothing to be right about. He was throwing himself into the spotlight for the sake of throwing himself into the spotlight. Why would scum want to do that?
Some scum like to lurk in the back, some like to lead from the front.
The furc wagon is a two way win for scum, really (assuming furc is town) - it succeeds and furc is lynched, it fails and "I was just testing for reactions" aka "being oh-so-proactive".
By the way -@ xisq: what did the reactions tell you?I think I missed that post.
I believe I have.In post 246, Dont Vote Me wrote:4. Stop avoiding it.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 251, Sotty7 wrote:As for the rest, sure it takes two to tango but I'm really not interested in fighting fair right now. With your initial reaction to MoI you seem to suggest that you do have this in your meta but refuse to provide it, why is this suddenly your sticking point? I was almost ready to remove my vote off you until you started whining about MoI basically asking in a way that annoyed you. You are really going to have to break that line of thought down for me because I just don't get it. To me, it looks like you got caught red handed and are just trying to deflect until someone else comes along and does something scummier.
People become defensive and stubborn when they feel someone has been rude to them. That's just human nature.
The complete reasons for me not getting self-meta are the following:
1) I genuinely don't like having to provide self-meta, and furthermore hate how MoI and people of his ilk ask for it and other burdensome requests at the drop of the hat like we all just live on mafiascum and don't need time for anything else. It seems to be something that has crept in to mafiascum more frequently in recent times, and the requests are getting more ridiculous as well - I swear I've seen people ask for things like "give me 5 examples of a game where you've used that day 1 to catch scum" on multiple occasions. I guess you could say reason "1.5" is a reaction (overreaction?) to this overarching trend that I have noticed.
2) I thought the way it was asked was rude, and therefore was less inclined to respond.
3) I don't have all that much time to play mafiascum these days. Certainly not as much as I used to (this game is basically taking up my entire free evening tonight - thanks guys!).
4) I'm excited about the prospect of never having to provide self-meta again if I go through with this. This is a development that obviously came later, but it's a real bonus.
In post 251, Sotty7 wrote:Is Yates' charactrtization of your play lately a correct one? What do you think about his stance on you?
I guess I have been more... lackluster in my games. Maybe it is the "less time" thing. Maybe it is the roles I've been getting. Maybe I happen to be in a mafia "form slump" at the moment, or maybe I've just been unlucky recently. Probably a combination of things.
He could be trying to get town points by sort-of defending me. I like how he's called me out on my play recently and I prefer to think he is town, but I don't know to be honest.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 260, The Fonz wrote:
ThAd, I've explained it, MOI's explained it, continuing to try to pretend it doesn't exist is tipping my opinion on you toward the scum side of the ledger.
PREMISES:
If it is true that you do not use this 'trying too hard' tell as town, that makes you very likely scum for using an argument you don't believe in.
If it is true that you do not use this argument as town, you will not be able to refer to your meta to rebut this argument.
THEREFORE:
If you are scum who does not use the argument as town and has been caught red-handed, I would expect you to play EXACTLY AS YOU HAVE IN THIS GAME.
This isyourexplanation. It is largely based around how you played as town in another game and how you assume you might play as scum in the same situation. First of all this is based on yourself and, this might come as some surprise, we are not the same person. Hence we may not react in exactly the same way. Secondly you are assuming that you would act completely the opposite as scum as you would as town - do you not think that you would indeed act thesameway as scum to pretend to be town?
So as I said this is your explanation and, particularly because of the personal nature of how you came to your conclusion, I am interested in each other persons explanation.
MoI's reason was predicated on the theory that I had never used the tell before. As I've said I still think that what you and MoI brought up proves I have used the tell before, so I think his reason for thinking I'm scum is null.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 259, Xisiqomelir wrote:Since the only example found shows you using it on Town per MoI's #122, I dispute that it's a functioning scumtell.
I refer you to fonz's post 148, in which he finds a few more.
In post 259, Xisiqomelir wrote:It was that playing with Furcolow was something that anyone would like, regardless of the reason. Part of the "Furcolow is so bad for the game we should lynch him pre-confirmation" theme.
Lately, it's more because I cannot find all of the following to be true:
1) You are "100% sure" that you've used "trying way too hard to be helpful" as a scumtell
2) You refuse to support this assertion even by way of providing one example, even if it should lead to your lynch
In post 139, ThAdmiral wrote:In post 125, Zang wrote:ThAdmiral wrote:I'm afraid its a matter of principle now.
If you are town, this is absolutely not a reason to get yourself lynched.
I disagree. This is a very beneficial precedent that I'm more than happy to set for myself.
One game where I'm lynched compared to a lifetime in which I don't have to provide self meta? I'll take that deal any day of the week and twice on tuesday!
3) You are Town
I think it is pretty weak that you would accuse me of the very serious felony of "lying" if it was only regarding my thoughts about furcolow. Firstly because it's wrong (I enjoyed my last few games with furc - off the top of my head "cold war mafia" and "troll mafia" or something like that). Secondly because it blows the situation out of proportion to make it seem like my statement was a "must-lynch" tell.
Also I don't like the fact that you only now explained why I was a liar.
As to your other points:
1) that may have been an exaggeration only because you can never be 100% sure of anything. How sure can you be without being able to produce any examples of the top of your head? Lets say 95% sure.
2) I'm deadly serious about not having to provide self meta on request in future.
3) Yeah, well that's just, like, your opinion man.
In post 259, Xisiqomelir wrote:I state the most significant reactions here when addressing Jarvis...
Fair enough.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 275, MagnaofIllusion wrote:In post 273, ThAdmiral wrote:MoI's reason was predicated on the theory that I had never used the tell before. As I've said I still think that what you and MoI brought up proves I have used the tell before, so I think his reason for thinking I'm scum is null.
Um no. My reason is predicated on the fact that your so-called tell is laughably bullshit and the fact you can't actually show an indication that you have ever used it (despite saying "I have") succesfully is just icing on the cake.
But there is proof that I've used it.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 278, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Link me to you successfully doing so as Town. I'm still waiting for that. If you point to anything I or Fonz has provided once again my belief is not a single instance I have seen meets what I am looking for.
I'll do that when you link me to 5 games where you've caught scum who have decided not to fetch self-meta in the past year...
In post 278, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Actually don't since this topic has been ground into the dirt.
I prefer this though.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
Ok finally back. I'll respond to everything, but I like breaking it up when I'm talking to different people (I think this makes it easier to read), so expect quite a few posts in a row by me.
In post 286, Zang wrote:I'm sorry, I though that the scu motivation was rather obvious especially with the analogy. Like I said, you are making a claim but aren't providing any evidence to support this. The scum motivation is that, as scum, you thought that you didn't have any evidence to support it but you also thought that to admit that you were wrong about the tell and that you lied about being absolutely certain that you had the meta. You would have known that this would make you look scummy. So, you refused to provide it while still claiming that you were certain that you had it. You thought that by refusing to provide meta and that giving the explanation that this wad because it was "a matter of principle", you could avoid being caught in a lie and hopefully, convince the town that you were just town being a dick in order to prove Magna and Xis wrong.
If you were town, you first never would have claimed that you were 100% certain that you had meta for it and then, if you found out that you didn't, you would have just admitted that you were lying. This is because, as town, you would have known that telling the truth would have been most beneficial to the town and you would have done this because you would have nothing to fear if you were suspected for it because you would know that your actions were town motivated. This is not the case.
Well all I can say is we have to agree to disagree.
I know my own mind; I know, for example, that I have used the tell against people that haven't posted in a while and then have come in and posted a reads lists so they can look like they are doing something helpful for the town. I can't remember for the life of me where but I know I have.
I guess whether you think I'm scum comes down to whether you think I'm lying or not. If you do that's your stance and I won't be able to argue you out of it by saying "no, I'm not!".
In post 286, Zang wrote:I don't care about the simplest explanation. I care about the explanation that best makes sense based on what has been said in the thread. The facts that your "change of heart" was supported by little reasoning, was seemingly random and happened after more people have become suspicious of Jarvis all support my explanation especially with Jarvis already likely to be scum.
This relies on me being scum. Once again that is your opinion. But I will endeavour to explain my flip on jarvis in more detail (however I think "flip" is slightly incorrect, as I never had jarvis as a strong scumread but he was certainly someone that I was interested in questioning):
I questioned him about seeming contradictions, but based on his answers they weren't. To clarify I thought it was off that he said he would have been fine if furc had been lynched, but then said he didn't have a scumread on furc. For most people on this site this would be scummy, but I feel he was coming from a perspective that these two things aren't mutually exclusive (a perspective that I can only assume comes from wherever he played before). I have also had experience offsite and I know that there people were often lynched for "information" or if they were deemed "distracting" to the point of being a negative influence on the game (I'm not saying all off-site mafia places have these same perspective, just that different perspectives like these do exist).
Furthermore while I initially thought he was potentially scum for throwing his vote around early I actually viewed this as a town tell, especially coupled with posts like:In post 130, Jarvis wrote:Zang is spinning so much shit out of a perfectly clear position. Sotty is staying remarkably close to the fence. MoI is cheering Zang on while avoiding the issue himself. ThAd is probably scum still. Fonz has done so little.
Which go out of their way to put so many people offside. I don't see scum saying this.
I don't see scum admitting they wanted to lynch someone who they didn't have a scumread on.
Plus, as I mentioned, his frustration read as genuine. This came across most in posts 129, 142, 218 etc.
In post 286, Zang wrote:ThAdmiral wrote:This is your explanation. It is largely based around how you played as town in another game and how you assume you might play as scum in the same situation.
Where did he say this?
In post 249, The Fonz wrote:Here's what bothers me, though: I would expect a scum who has been caught red-handed using an argument he doesn't use as town to react in EXACTLY the way ThAd has here. It's like the suspect who, instead of providing an alibi, goes "ROBBERY? ME? How dare you accuse me of robbery! That's totally out of order, I'd never do a thing like that!" Reactive hostility, which relates to my point about Lanthir. If ThAd really doesn't normally use the tell, then this is pretty much his only option.
Compare this to how I reacted as town in Scummies to MOI making a similar line of enquiry (he was suggesting I don't lurkerhunt as town, which to anyone who knows anything about my meta is pretty much the most laughable suggestion possible):
In post 212, The Fonz wrote:In post 135, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Fonz– In case you missed it – you didn’t discuss whether you had lurker hunted in the past as Town. If you can provide me links again that would be fantastic.
I will do this shortly. Shouldn't take too long, as proving I go after lurkers as town is kinda like proving the New York Yankees have quite a successful history. It's probably the best-known part of my meta.
I then provide the links shortly after that.
He later clarified his position though, so this is slightly old news.
In post 286, Zang wrote:Before making the claim that you were 100% sure, why didn't you check to make sure that you did have the meta?
Because that would require me trawling through my history, which, as I've already established, I didn't fancy doing.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 301, The Fonz wrote:@ThAd: Is MOI scum? Why or why not? You haven't actually talked about anything other than the attacks on you for several pages. I have no idea what your reads are at this point.
If I had to say I would say no, because he is playing to his town meta which is to crusade. Although I think there is some skewing of the results going on (the ones from my meta that he found) I believe he believes what he is saying, and I have noticed that when he decides on something it is very difficult to change his mind.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 311, Xisiqomelir wrote:Fonz doesn't seem to find it a conclusive result, though,
Are you going to use that example (Kingmaker II) as your proof? petroleumjelly survived to win the game. Do you believe in the tell much more strongly now?
I feel that example, and others, such as the tv mafia one, show that there history of me using the tell, and as I mentioned in response to zang I know that I've used it before referring to people who have posted a reads list unprompted to seem proactive and helpful, but I can't remember when or where.
I'm not sure if I "believe in the tell more strongly now". I'm sure my belief fluctuates based on many factors including the circumstance and tone of any post in question that might harbour the tell.
In post 311, Xisiqomelir wrote:Can we address my presumed motive for this "trying way too hard"? Were the three players I responded to going to read the provided meta, be horrified at Furcolow's standard of play, and then speedlynch him?
Maybe...
From the top of my head there are only a couple of people that I believe could be successfully speedwagoned based on their playstyle and furc is one of them.
I still think that pushing the early furc wagon is a win-win for you if you are scum as you either get the wagon through, or you claim it was just reaction testing. That being said I am coming round to believing it genuinely was reaction testing.
In post 311, Xisiqomelir wrote:What is your latest opinion of Mr_Ree and Jarvis?
Check my posts to zang for my jarvis read (town).
Ree I am going to go in to more depth on later. He's someone that has been at the periphery of my vision for a while now and has been giving me bad gut feels.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
unvote
I don't want to vote xisq any more. I will vote someone else after I've posted analysis on a few other players.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 347, MagnaofIllusion wrote:ThAd wrote: Was going to post but ran out of time. Later tonight fo sho.
Ironic (in scummy has hell) that he just happens to run out of time in this game where he’s already established that he wants to lurk out his wagon. Yet has time to post content in other games.
Seriously - Do I need to fake-claim a Daycop to get him lynched or what?]
There was way more to talk about in this game, so I saved it for last.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr Ree analysis:
Ree's weird interaction with xis is the first thing that sparked my interest. He says he plans to "read up on furcolo" (post 28), and also "Thanks xis I'll check it out." (31) after xis provides meta but then says "Pssshht. Yeah right, do you honestly think I have the time to read that whole list?" (34) and "So, just so we're aware, why do we want to lynch someone before they even confirm?" (46) regarding xisq's wagon on furc. Note: this was after both myself and lanthir had voted xisq for his activity regarding furc - as such it looks contradictory and opportunistic on ree's part.
In post 53, Mr_Ree wrote:If he's this easy to catch as scum, what are you so afraid of? I haven't been reading his town games yet but if he's as easy to read as some people suggest, I have no problem giving him the benefit of the doubt.
In post 54, Mr_Ree wrote:Or the very least, the benefit of posting.
These are fair comments by mr ree.
In post 87, Mr_Ree wrote:And why is that exactly?
What are your thoughts on Xis? A Lynch before confirmation does nothing but potentially eliminate two townies. I can almost see his reasoning now that furcolow has made him first post. For that matter, what are your thoughts on Jarvis? Zhang has brought up some good points. It sucks that he didn't link or quote the posts but he's making the effort which is more than I can say for you.
This is an interesting post as it comes up after he was voted by peregrine. He really seems to be trying to direct peregrine's attention elsewhere here.
In post 305, Mr_Ree wrote:As for Furc, I read some of his games of both alignments. I understand the distaste. Am I an expert on Furc? Hell no, nor would I want to be. Can I take a guess as to his alignment? Null leaning town. There are others that are higher on my list. I'm still a little suspicious of Xis but admittedly less so. I'm thinking scum lies somewhere between Jarvis and Thad but I'm leaning more Jarvis that Thad, although I did notice some connections between the two.
Here his suspicion slips off xisq and goes to me and particularly jarvis. I think it would be fair to say that this is an accurate representation of the general movement of opinion at the time, mainly seems to draw from stuff other people have already said, and once again comes off as somewhat opportunistic.\
In post 306, Mr_Ree wrote:We stand to gain the most information from Jarvis so my vote goes there. Twice this game he has stated that he would Lynch players regardless of alignment simply for distaste of the player. As new arguments come up I'm sure you'll develop a distaste towards more players.
vote Jarvis
As has been mentioned this is a bad post. Wanting to lynch for information is generally a poor/scummy move. His stance that jarvis is willing to vote people based on distaste for them and that jarvis could develop a distaste toward more players doesn't really have any bearing on jarvis alignment as it is evidence of jarvis playing sub-optimally but not scumilly.
Next up he posts his analysis of why he is voting jarvis. A lot of it doesn't read genuine as if he had truly thought jarvis was being so scummy at the time (particularly in reference to some of the earlier things jarvis did) it doesn't make sense that ree didn't bring it up at the time.
That being said he brings up enough reasoning to justify his vote on jarvis. From a neutral perspective his case is not based on nothing, but I do have different opinions about jarvis.
Overall there is some evidence to suggest a scum mindset. I would vote him, but I hope to find a better candidate.
Next I will look at dlm, who has also given me bad vibes.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
Dlm analysis:
Flips from thinking moi is scummy (20), to liking his play (58) with no real explanation provided.
Votes me in 58. The interesting thing to note is that he said me not providing my meta was "just amusing, not necessarily scummy", and the main thing he found suspicious was my "edit" of my post.
He implores me to browse through my finished games, and warns me "Acting belligerent earns you nothing but rope" (116), and also says "Being a pain in the ass really only hurts town" (118) which sounds more like someone asking someone they know is town-aligned to play more pro-town, than someone who is certain they are on scum.
Yet in 140, after I said I'd be happy to set a precedent of not having to supply meta, he says "I'm starting to see why people have blacklists. ThAd, want to tell us who your scumbuddies are?". I have only continued to not provide my meta, something that was "not necessarily scummy", but now it apparently is.
He reacts very prickly when xisq asks him to answer his own question he put to yates ("who is scum" 165), saying: ""Is that your pretentious way for asking about my scumreads?" (177). He implies he doesn't have any others than where his vote is, i.e. me. When pushed, however, he states that jarvis is the best alternative to me (179).
In post 200 he asks the open ended question "The Xis wagon feels extremely scum-driven. Anyone else get that feeling?", without any concrete opinion on who the scum may be. However he does ask questions of people on the wagon - asking them for further reads if they have been lurking, or to clarify their position on xisq. He also asks similar clarification questions of yates, furculow and jarvis but after they are answered doesn't seem to come to any conclusions based on their answers - as if he was just asking to look like he was being proactive, to look as if he was scumhunting.
Similarly with me he asks me a series of questions based on moi's case against me which I respond to. He responds in kind, and so far so good. But when I respond again he doesn't say anything in reply. As I mentioned at the time it did sound as though dlm had made up his mind about me - I felt that no matter what I said he would keep his vote on me, which he did for the most part.
Then suddenly in 361 he says "You guys do know that Jarvis is scum right?", and votes him in the subsequent post (364). I realise that this it was the nero cain, and it was his first post, but he provided no reasoning (when asked by peregrine he says "Post a case on Jarvis so I can defend my scumbuddy. There, I translated your scumspeak. Besides I have no time.", 367), and the killer jester head supports the vote, stating his earlier posted suspicions of jarvis. I think it is clear that jarvis was becoming the favoured lynch over myself at this point and thus the vote swap comes across as somewhat opportunistic.
------------------------------------------------------
Overall I think rees and dlm are good lynches, and I lean towards dlm.
vote: dlmDon't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 374, Zang wrote:ThAdmiral wrote:I know my own mind; I know, for example, that I have used the tell against people that haven't posted in a while and then have come in and posted a reads lists so they can look like they are doing something helpful for the town. I can't remember for the life of me where but I know I have.
You didn't have to provide meta though. If you explained this and also said that you didn't need meta in order to consider it to be a scum tell, I would have accepted that. You dug your own hole.
Ok. Mea culpa.
In post 374, Zang wrote:Regardless of whether it is scummy to want someone lynched who you don't think is scum, I think that it is scummy that he says this even though he previously said that he didn't really like policy lynches.
It's also scummy that he continued to think this with his vote on Xis and has basically done almost no scumhunting all game.
I agree that these things are "scummy" in the classical sense, but...this is tricky to put in to words...I feel he is being "scummy" but he is not actuallyscum. Do you get what I'm saying?
In post 374, Zang wrote:But you see town saying that?
Scum wouldn't easily admit it unless they knew that they couldn't come up with a good reason as to why he was voting otherwise.
I see a player saying that who has come from a different background and a different meta.
In post 374, Zang wrote:So instead you make up claims that you weren't sure you could easily support later?
Do you really want to go here again?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think jarvis' 382 points out some interesting things about ree's posting. It looks as if ree's is trying to have his cake and eat it too, by saying that he didn't mainly want to lynch jarvis for information, but that going after an information lynch is good for town.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In post 390, Xisiqomelir wrote:@ThAdmiral: If lynching Jarvis is lynching town, can you pick scum from this pseudo-wagon?
Jarvis 6 - Zang,Mr_Ree,Amrun,Yates,Don't Lynch Me,Xisiqomelir
And, obvious corollary, how does your analysis change if Jarvis flips scum?
Dlm and ree would be my best bets. I'm finding you and zang hard to read and I believe yates and amrun are town.
If jarvis flips scum? I'd prefer to cross that bridge if and when we come to it. I think I'd be in trouble for one thing.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 397, Jarvis wrote:But come on now MoI, after not mentioning me for pages on end, you're really about to drop the ThAd lynch that you've worked so hard for to hammer me, without a word? Colour me unconvinced.
To be fair to moi he's said he thinks you're scum before. But mainly because he thinks we are scum together.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 417, The Fonz wrote:Oh yeah, and I'd be interested in ThAd's read on Furc in this game, for reasons I will elaborate on once he gives it.
Well he's playing to his scum meta so far, see politics mafia (scum) compared to cold war mafia (scum) for examples. In each game someone breaks down his meta and is right both times (feysal in politics, myself in cold war).
However for some reason I'm not 100% convinced he is scum, possibly because he didn't vote me (which I realise is bad logic).Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
I'm still going dlm. As you say the fact that sotty was voting for him makes him even more of an appealing lynch. I think the meta at mafiascum has moved away from nightkill analysis to the extent that scum who are being pressured by people feel almost 100% free to kill those people without much fear of reprisal as someone will always say "nk analysis is full of wifom". While this is true for the most part, there is always some logic behind night-kills and that logic ususally stems from one of three things: "this person is playing like a pr", "this person is confrimed town/perceived as town and will be very hard to lynch" and "this person wants me dead".
Sotty more or less fills the second category, and was certainly in the third category.
vote: dlmDon't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
I just had a brief glance at furcs most recent finished games other than politics and cold war. It seems he might be *gasp* developing as a player. His meta, at least, isn't as easily catalogued perhaps.
For a test I looked at his iso and tried to guess his alignment before looking at his actual flip.
Mini 1262 was eaten by the tigers. Yates was in that game though.@ yates: what was furcs alignment? (my guess was town, mainly because of his miller claim and a few decent posts).
Stars aligned. Lots of decent posts. I guessed town, he was town.
DC universe mafia. I was in this one and know he was town, but based on meta I would also have guessed town - high post count.
Murder in the Louvre. This one caught me off guard. I guessed town based on his high post rate along with a few decent sized posts but he was in fact scum in this game.
Vedere le Viste. This was an odd one. He replaced in, claimed vt and then hammered very soon after. Then it gets a bit weird. It looks like he was sort of kicked out of the game based on players requests. Anyway I guessed scum because his posts were short and unhelpful and less frequent but it seems he was town in this game. He wasn't even in it for a full day though so it's arguable whether this one is applicable.
Phineas and Ferb. He was replaced day one after being kicked out of his house apparently. But based on his existing posts this was a hard one to pick. They weren't exactly one liners but they weren't large posts either. But I guessed town because the count was fairly frequent and he was indeed town.
So I was only correct in 2 out of the 4 games that I looked at (3 out of 5 if you include dc which I was in), but he did surprise me in Murder in the Louvre and Vedere le Viste, and Phineas and Ferb wasn't exactly like his normal town style.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
In post 424, The Fonz wrote:That's not a bad vote, but why DLM and not Ree who she also suspected quite heavily?
Your recent Furc meta analysis seems to show that he in fact played similarly to what you categorized as his 'scum meta' in a town game, and what you categorized as his 'town meta' as scum. So do you still have confidence in your ability to read him?
As I mentioned his recent meta is not as clear cut which is why I'm not going to say he's definitely scum in this game, even though he is playing to his formerly typical scum meta.
Why dlm? I think there is more evidence to suggest he is scum based on his play yesterday (mainly the asking questions but not actually doing anything with the answers thing) compared to rees who is an ok lynch option but not a great one (I think a few points against him such as the "I'll read that"/"I'm not reading that!" regarding the furc meta provided by xisq and the "information lynch" reasoning for his vote on jarvis were somewhat overblown). Secondly sotty was voting dlm, not rees. Rees had a slew of other people voting him that would make more logical sense as night targets (such as yourself).Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
@ dlm: how about reading properly before slagging me off. I said "a slew of other peoplevoting him". If you have a look back at end of day 1 it shouldn't be too hard to figure out that I mean furc, Jarvis (now dead), peregrine and fonz. I believe fonz and sotty appeared more or less equally town at the end of day 1 so, yes, I think fonz would have made more sense if ree was scum. Peregrine probably wasn't perceived town as much as sorry, but he probably also makes more sense as an nk target for Rees.
This is somewhat moot, however, as I'm feeling more and more that Rees is not scum.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills
@ ree: I'll have another look at pere but I believe he's playing his usual style - lowish post count but decent content. He tends to stick to his reads once formed. I don't necessarily agree that tunneling is a scumtell, furthermore it is arguable whether he has indeed been tunneling you.
That being said I would like to see his updated read on you and anyone else he cares to provide his thoughts on.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
-
ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5920
- Joined: September 20, 2006
- Location: The Hills