Mini 1411: Timeshift Mafia OVER

[SoraAdvent]

VOTE: Arc for using the vote wrongly.

Use the vote tags, Arc.

[SoraAdvent]

Vote: Kitoari

Because we need to get the game going.


With that, I have to declare a V/LA because of a family Member visiting and I will not have Internet for about a week.

As Kit mentioned, what part of the vote allows you to "get the game going"?

I leave for a few hours and shit happens. I'll catch up soon. I'm having a hard time settling in.

And yes, I have to read through the entire argument and see which stance I take.

[SoraAdvent]

Mini PBPA of levi. Huge wall ahead.

If Kitoari gets hammered, i'm going to be really annoyed. unless he is scum that is. then will be like WHHHOOOO!!!! but seriously having someone lynched so early on is probably not the best bet. how many scum do we have in this game? i don't even know, which i think I feel I should, but I don't. My only thinking in this is no quick lynching we need to get out of RVS and we are still just in it. If we lynch Kitoari I feel we will be lynching a townie. which the probability there is very high. let's think on this more. UNVOTE:

Translation: Kitoari is town but if he's scum great for us. No clue how many scum. No quicklynches please.

Fairly empty post, in one sense. It's just stating the very obvious.

trying too hard? really? thats why you don't like my post? =/ because i am actually trying to catch scum means I'm trying too hard in my play? what kind of scum tell is that? that has COMPLETELY NO backing whatsoever. in other words its simply COMPLETELY WRONG. there I said it. =/

This is the followup after Kit accuses him of trying too hard.

I think he didn't really try to catch scum in his previous post, and he starts getting really defensive about it, saying that he was trying to catch scum.

When Kit tells him that it doesn't sound like scumhunting,

no. i was logically trying to prevent someone from getting wrongly lynched and lynched too fast. there was no personal gain in me saying that and I highly doubt it made me look town for saying that. it shouldn't have. those are two different things. my vote on you was RVS completely random and i go after a random person in RVS for a stupid reason. all my other games show that. how could it come off as phony? its logic and reason.

fine, do you want me to lynch you?

should I have stayed so someone could have hammered and we get the game going? I figured you wouldn't have wanted that and gave you the benefit of the doubt.

Kitoari did not accuse you of looking phony in your RVS vote, he said that your post 42 comes across as phony. This is partly OMGUS as well(refer to bolded part).

And leviathan, why in the world would someone quickhammer so early when it would incriminate them?

First, I don't play that there is anything in it for me. second, I could care less about xalxe's vote on me. Its RVS. I wouldn't even care if I was the MAIN wagon and I was going to be the one who people could hammer. Everyone in RVS is going to be "SURE" that who they say is scummy for a stupid reason. =P that's how the game goes.
Second. i know you were talking about my unvote. you probably were thinking that I took it off because I didn't want to be on the wagon when you were lynched, am I right? no. I took it off because I didn't want a quick lynch to occur. regardless if that makes me gain town cred its the truth. i'd rather scum was lynched then town so if you want me to go all claiming town now then I would. regardless of my alignment at this point in the game scums is going to try to act town. I am in no way acting suspicious. When something regarding my name comes up like your reasonings for me being scummy, I return fire and answer them truthfully. It ain't my problem if you still find me suspicious.
3. i could care less about jesters. i would think that you would naturally understand my reason for unvoting you and not try to pin me with something that isn't there or wasn't the truth. I don't want a quick lynch. but in your eyes I guess that makes me SOOO scummy. =P lol.
Four. No. nothing makes the game going until things start happening. We are still very much in RVS in my opinion. people like you are trying to make it look like we are out of RVS or whatever but because all the votes are on you and people are still "hopping on wagons' it means we are NOT out of RVS and that means the game IS NOT going. just because you don't understand someone doesn't mean they are scum or that its suspicious. =P just saying.

At that point, it doesn't look like RVS at all. People were voting for you based on your reactions, which I find to be quite justified.
Why are you scared of a quickhammerer? You know that the quickhammerers will be incriminated, right?

Unless of course we're in lylo but that doesn't matter right now.

Do you really think by claiming we'll just let you off?

i'm not being dramatic. I'm giving up trying to fight y'all for being as ignorant as you are. that will probably leave me to be lynched since I won't defend myself from the likes of you.
but yes. I still think we are in RVS. I believe it to be so until the first person dies. thats the only way some REAL information is made and can be gone off of.
I pretty much am wondering that any new person to jump on my wagon has the possibility of being scum. BECAUSE apparently i'm so scummy looking. REAL scum would take the chance to vote for me and get off scot free by just saying. "well, y'all saw that! he looked scummy! what was I to do! I'm not the only who thought him scummy." =P

RVS=Random Voting Stage. When we no longer random vote, we are no longer in RVS. Do you understand?
I think the last paragraph is just him trying to shift attention off to others.

lol. they aren't full of holes. =P i'm not an arguer. you just don't believe me when I say what I say and are pushing something that isn't there. =P thats either 1. stupidity, 2. ignorance. or 3. scummy. =P and i don't know which one to call y'all because I KNOW y'all are wrong. =P
yes, i'm backed into a corner because nothing I say will change your mind and i'm not going to continue posting and making it harder for the others to find ACTUAL scum. i'm not trying to win any argument. =P i'm saying the truth. =P

I don't know how many scum roles there are in this game. naturally I feel that automatically makes me town but y'all would just say i'm lying so lynch me and find the truth. then I can laugh at you like I said I would.

Well, this post is very defensive and it starts to seem like he is trying to AtE us.

Then some other really defensive stuff leading to a self-vote, then a claim of VT.

Oh, leviathan, do us a favor and claim, would you? Unless you're scum, in which case don't bother.

I think he took this a little too literally.

TL;DR: Extremely defensive stuff, a few logical fallacies, AtE and a self-vote.

Gonna request a votecount before voting for levi: I'm still gonna keep an eye on KBW though.

@Mod: Votecount, please.

[SoraAdvent]

Allright, thanks.

VOTE: Leviathan

[SoraAdvent]

Shall I spell it out to you, Levi?

You are mistaken about RVS. The RVS stands for Random Voting Stage. Once people start voting seriously, RVS is over.

Buh. I can't say anything about Levi that hasn't already been said. I'm flip flopping on him with every turn -- I think he's scum, but then I think he's town because he's just doing stupid things that town wouldn't do.

How is he town if he does things that town won't do?

[SoraAdvent]

New update on my scum list since people have posted there thoughts on it.

Angel. looking like town. at least not scum anymore
Bitmap same as before. leaning scum. want more out of him.
Guille same. still town.
Human Destroyer. null.
KeyBladeWielder. scum mostly for lurking. but nothing wrong out of him really. so null, leaning scum
Kitoari. Still a ranting townhound.
Last Survivor. Still town.
Lurker. is a bit of a lurker. could be buddying up to me as an escape route for scum since he really is the only one who sides with me. leaning scum
PeregrinV. i just get an ominous town vibe.
SoraAdvent. Null still.
Sucrose. scummy now.
Xalxe. either scum or way too easily offended caring townie.

KBW is on V/LA.
I would like you to explain your reads on me and Human Destroyer.

its basically more like I have given up on this game since y'all have awful reasons for voting me and i'm not in the mood of convincing y'all how stupidly ignorant y'all are being. =P seriously. i'm not town. but if it takes my lynch to get you to see that fine.

We? Being ignorant? Having awful reason?

Can anyone who's not voting Levi explain why, please?

[SoraAdvent]

VOTE: Lurker

Explain your quickhammer or face the noose, Lurker.

[SoraAdvent]

Alright, I was hoping Lurker would post so I could get a better picture of if I'm right about this or not, but since he's apparently not going to show up I'll go ahead and post this:

You guys voting Lurker are barking up the wrong tree. Let's think about it. Scum-Lurker quickhammers.......someone he knows is a vanilla townie. Does this make sense? Was there any chance that Levi

wasn't

going to be the day's lynch? No, there wasn't. Was scum-Lurker protecting another scum player by quickhammering? No, because Levi was the only person with any sort of serious suspicion on them. Lurker's hammer doesn't make any damn sense for scum, and in fact this whole thing, and how quick people were to vote him for it, makes me think he's town.

Now, maybe I'm wrong and Lurker is just an erratic player, town or scum, but really I see this episode as pointing to more town than scum.

Even then, it's pretty darn anti-town to quickhammer, especially after I told Levi himself why quickhammering is anti-town.

The points on Angel have been quite valid: in fact, I have another point to bring against Angel.

You make good point...

Unvote

VOTE: ArcAngel

This. Once Arc starts to get some heat, scumbuddy KBW looks for a way to get on the wagon and get townie points for lynching Angel.
This is purely speculation though, and for now I'll be happy voting for Angel.
VOTE: Arc

Regarding Bitmap, I think I'll look at his town meta and see whether he plays like this. Bitmap, care to oblige by giving us one of your town games?

[SoraAdvent]

What in the world are you trying to achieve with that unvote?

Angel still scum, but I want to move my vote to KBW for a bit.

VOTE: KBW

And also, a few questions:
What is your read on me, HD, Bitmap, Angel and Sucrose? Explain.
Why, after I told you your vote on Angel was scummy, did you immediately unvote? What good would that do? Did you think I would drop my read on you even if you did that? If so, why?
Do you think Lurker shouled be lynched for quickhammering?
How in the world do you expect me to believe you that you don't have a scum role if you just say so.

May or may not change my vote based on KBW answer.

@HD: Just call me Sora, please.

[SoraAdvent]

KBW's #258 makes no sense in context

He said Sucrose made a good point, then votes ArcAngel, except Sucrose was voting for Bitmap.

If ArcAngel is scum, KBW is almost definitely scum with him

Any intent to join the wagon if KBW keeps this up?

[SoraAdvent]

KBW, answer my questions.

[SoraAdvent]

And also, a few questions:
What is your read on me, HD, Bitmap, Angel and Sucrose? Explain.
Why, after I told you your vote on Angel was scummy, did you immediately unvote? What good would that do? Did you think I would drop my read on you even if you did that? If so, why?
Do you think Lurker shouled be lynched for quickhammering?
How in the world do you expect me to believe you that you don't have a scum role if you just say so.

May or may not change my vote based on KBW answer.

@KBW: Here. Answer all of these questions, please.
We may be friends, but that doesn't mean I won't attack you. Remember that.

After the last page, I'm pretty confident of my townread on Human Destroyer. Arc remains scum, but KBW is still worse in my opinion.

An example, if you may:

Screw you Human Destroyer. I've suspected Arc for a while now, so just shut up

Non-information post. Simply refutes Human Destroyer.

@Sucrose: Since you say that Guille or Lastsurvivor are people you don't have reads on, what are your reads on everyone else?

@Lurker: Get out here, now. What are your thoughts on KBW and Angel?

Reads:

Town(S>W): HD, Kit, Sucrose

Null(Town>Scum): LS, Guille, Bitmap

Scum(S>W): KBW, Arc, Lurker

Oh cool. Three in each category.
Guille needs to post more.
LS has posted a fair bit of content, but not as much as my townread, and in my opinion, not as important.
Agreed with Sucrose's case on Bitmap.
Reading through Literal Music Video Mafia and seeing somethings, including that Bitmap, who was town in that game, didn't make too many points and was inactive, somewhat, but posted more content than in here.
That will not make me vote him yet, as KBW is still scummier.

Call for the scumteam is probably KBW/Arc/Lurker.
KBW's flip will help me decide if Angel is scum.

[SoraAdvent]

Non-information post. Simply refutes Human Destroyer.

That's not a refutation, that's ad hominem.

OK, understood. Sorry about that.

[SoraAdvent]

Lurker has got some 'splainin to do.

Yes I do.

You know the Timeshift?

Well, I had a very special role.

A 1-shot role.

One time only, I could make all night actions resolve on their normal times.

So I'm a vanilla now.

That is why actions came through.

Then why in the world did you do it on Night 1, of all nights? You do realize that with the Timeshift we get basically an extended Day 1 had you not used your power?

Regardless, I could see this more as a mafia power than a town power, but that's just gut.

[SoraAdvent]

@Sora
You: nothing scummy yet
HD: Not sure
Arc: definitely scum
Bitmap/Sucrose: nothing yet

I don't know. I was trying to prove I was just jumping on somebody to avoid getting votes myself

Yes.

I am not very good yet, and I forget not everyone is trusting.

There. Happy now?

Points, one by one.
I asked you to explain your reads, right?
Not jumping on people can be scum and town, thought many players consider it to be scummy because scum have no motivation to scumhunt in games with one scum faction.
Then why aren't you voting Lurker yet?
No one is trusting in mafia, KBW.

What are you talking about? Your little jump from active to inactive to active is rather scummy, you seem to be trying to draw attention away from yourself and onto me or Lurker.

I'm active, then inactive as well. Why pick on Angel?

That was the play style I was seeing.

I have no fear of the town when I am a member of the town.

I see they have yet to lynch me because if I am town, they are down another member.

If I'm scum, good for me, but I'm not scum.

I'm in a bad position and trying to dig myself out even though HD is scooping more dirt on me, with a little help from you.

My supposed scumteam:
Arc/maybe Bitmap/maybe Lurker

HD might be substituted for Bitmap or Lurker.

Sora: town
Sucrose: null
That's all I got.

This post is better than his previous posts, at least, but I'm still missing explanations.

Of course, Sora is really good at mafia on McLeodgaming, so he could just be hiding his scum role.
We'll have to wait and see about him.

C'mon Terra.... Errr.. Sora.

Let me hear your reads on me, HD, Arc, Bitmap, and Lurker

Yes?
Oh fine. I do have a reputation offsite, and I have links to my scum meta and KBW's town meta.

You-Scum so far, getting better, though.
HD-Town
Arc-Scum but posting has improved.
Bitmap-Null for now, posting's improved.
Lurker-Still scum, but you're scummier.

So you think Sucrose is scum now?

Would you like to explain why?

Sucrose pretty much pushed the bandwagon off Lurker on to someone else which aroused some suspicions. However, I am less inclined to believe Sucrose is scum now that

Lurker is almost conf. town

.

We have no idea if this role is town aligned, where did that come from?

Also, I pushed a bandwagon on Arc

and

KBW. Why is it scummy when Sucrose does it, but not when I do it?

This just serves to cement my townread on Destroyer. Thank you for making my point clear.

I can't seem to get through the Bitmap/HD argument first time around. I'll reread and see.

[SoraAdvent]

Guys here:
http://forums.mcleodgaming.com/viewtopi ... &start=510
He was a replacement.

Still reading through again: very tired lately.

Lurker thinks Angel is town lolwut.

There still is no reason to quickhammer, Lurker.

[SoraAdvent]

KBW, who are your top scumspects and why? Back up with quotes and explanations, please.

Vote stays on KBW pending response.

[SoraAdvent]

@Regfan:

In regards to Sucrose

My mild townread is mainly because of this post: otherwise her play has been null for me.

Alright, I was hoping Lurker would post so I could get a better picture of if I'm right about this or not, but since he's apparently not going to show up I'll go ahead and post this:

You guys voting Lurker are barking up the wrong tree. Let's think about it. Scum-Lurker quickhammers.......someone he knows is a vanilla townie. Does this make sense? Was there any chance that Levi

wasn't

going to be the day's lynch? No, there wasn't. Was scum-Lurker protecting another scum player by quickhammering? No, because Levi was the only person with any sort of serious suspicion on them. Lurker's hammer doesn't make any damn sense for scum, and in fact this whole thing, and how quick people were to vote him for it, makes me think he's town.

Now, maybe I'm wrong and Lurker is just an erratic player, town or scum, but really I see this episode as pointing to more town than scum.

Nope. VOTE: Bitmap

Bitmap here stays off of the Levi wagon, but doesn't really attack it either. Then today he sheeps suspicion of Lurker, then sheeps a vote on him immediately after someone else does, when it looks like the suspicion of Lurker is unanimous. He timidly throws suspicion on ArcAngel without actually saying what he finds scummy. He's made a total of

2

sentences with content in 12 posts. Scummy. Really scummy. I like my gut feeling on this one.

Reading the last page, ArcAngel is also extremely scummy.

Also, for the record, Lurker is at L-2 right now, not L-1.

At this point a large Lurker bandwagon had already been built up, all for the same reason: the quickhammer. Sucrose explains why it doesn't make sense as scum. That, to me makes her town because I feel that Sucrose wouldn't defend Lurker if she was scum, knowing that the quickhammer would make for an easy lynch.

Now this could also just be scum Sucrose defending scum Lurker, but I find it to be highly unlikely due to how Lurker's role works.

Her giving a point on Bitmap when the main wagons were on KBW and Arc respectively seems to be townish, because I feel scum Sucrose would just easily hop on one of the bandwagons to get an easy lynch on one of the two.

In regards to me

I didn't know Levi's meta previously,but I blame myself for not doing research. Even so, there were more scumtells in this game than the completed game I have with him.

I have reasons for why quickhammering is always bad for the town, even though it could come from both town and scum.
There is literally no incentive for any townie to quickhammer. A few reasons:
It ends the day early, thus preventing vital information that could be gained.
A rash, reckless quickhammer could hit town when he could just be misunderstood.

Meanwhile, the mafia have an incentive for them to quickhammer. A reason:
It ends the day early, thus preventing vital information for the town to use.

In regards to my tunneling, yes, I do tunnel quite a bit.

With the Sucrose and Bitmap case, I agreed with the case, yes, but I didn't feel it was strong enough to warrant Bitmap to be on my scumlist, especially since I think KBW is scummier.

[SoraAdvent]

@Regfan:

In regards to your questions about me.

Sora, why do you think that Sucroses defence of Lurker isn't potentially white-knighting town in an attempt to earn town-cred upon a flip of him? If anything I find her defence of him more likely to be Sucrose-Scum and Lurker-Town than Sucrose-Scum and Lurker-Scum as I doubt she'd stick her neck out for a partner that quickhammered.

And I've gone over this so many times now but while there's little reasoning for town or scum to quick hammer it happens a lot so there is need to unvote when someone is placed at L-1 too early. Long story short I see no way possible that you actually believed the shit you were putting up against Leviathian.

If you look, after Sucrose did that, the attention started shifting, whether intentionally or unintentionally, from Lurker to Bitmap/Arc/KBW. Now if Sucrose wanted to earn town-cred for a lynch of Lurker, I would think that the mafia would have another one of their members push very hard against Lurker while Sucrose would defend Lurker.

I had thought that I had explained to Levi over how quickhammering is always bad for town, but it seems I didn't post it.
~~~~

In regards to goodmorning

What is so "interesting" about Sucrose's 412?
Why haven't you voted yet, even though you have scumreads?
What do you not understand about my vote on Arc? I agreed with the points brought up on her, and just added a little bit of speculation to it.
~~~~

In regards to Kitoari

Please comment on the game and give us your reads.
~~~~

In regards to KBW

Answer my questions, please.

KBW, who are your top scumspects and why? Back up with quotes and explanations, please.

Vote stays on KBW pending response.

[SoraAdvent]

Just something so say while I'm in school.

If you're saying caution is a scumtell, why in the world did you think that Levi was town, since he showed a ton of caution about everything, including quickhammers?

Will respond to people when I get back.

[SoraAdvent]

Sorry for not posting recently: been very busy with other games and my Asian life.

If Kit hammers KBW and flips town, that won't be good.

In regards to Regfan:

Except that'd lead towards the mafia 'pushing very hard' for Lurker to look somewhat bad the next day. I think it's very possible and likely that she'd just white-knight him thinking that either 1) He'd get lynched and she'd look good for her defence of him or 2) The lynch would move and later down the line if he were to get lynched or shot or died she'd look good from his flip. Either way her defence of him would result in her looking good with the only potential downside being that she'd have a chance at losing a mislynch but given the amount of other players that she's stated scum-reads on (Arc/Bitmap/KBW) I don't think she'd be worrying too much.

OK. I need some time to get this.
So you're saying that because Sucrose wants towncred she's defending Lurker, who she knows to be town. Is that what you're trying to say?
What I say is that Sucrose wouldn't defend Lurker as scum knowing that the quickhammer will draw fire.
Your point is valid, yes, but I think my point is too.

[SoraAdvent]

With KBW's town flip I'm reconsidering my reads. Rerreading thread and will get back with points.

[SoraAdvent]

@EVERYONE: V/LA for the next few days. Laptop's on no internet.

[SoraAdvent]

OK, now that I've got my Internet back on my laptop I an stop trying to post from an iPad.

So massclaim, huh? And I'm next? VT.

Will reread Sucrose and try to see where Regfan's coming from.

@CES: You just agree with Regfan's points on me, right? Nothing else?

@HD: So through that alone you find your vote on me justified?
I'm just curious: what made you suddenly jump from me as a townread to me as a scumread?

Lurker situation is weird: he may be fool with a kill or something.

[SoraAdvent]

@Reg: I have two completed town games, Micro 86 and Micro 107.
You were in that dayvigging scumteam with me, remember? I felt in that game I had to lurk because I couldn't make any attempts at being obvtown, so... And the other one, Newbie 1248, where I replaced in and out was my first game.

And I would think that 2-1-10 is unlikely, given that the setup forces scum to get more mislynches(unless they can reverse it, but it's probably one shot), and the town power we've already seen.

Will post more soon, hopefully.

[SoraAdvent]

Deathproof means immune to both lynches and nightkills.

HD, I still want you to answer my question: what made you jump so suddenly from me being one of your top townreads to the person you're voting for?
And if you're sheeping Regfan, who is more confident in his Sucrose scumread than he is on me, why did you vote for me?

VOTE: Lurker

Haven't really seen anything worth commenting on to be honest.

[SoraAdvent]

what made you jump so suddenly from me being one of your top townreads to the person you're voting for?

Vote analysis, guy.

Regfan may be right but I'm not directly sheeping him.

Looking back at your vote analysis I found that both Sucrose and I were in the same position, and before I argue against it, why vote me over Sucrose?

Alright, based on just the votes (no reads involved here, not including myself): (This all assumes 3 scum)

Day 1:

2 scum on the levi wagon: {CES, Sucrose, Sora, LS, Lurker}
1 scum off the levi wagon: {Guille, Regfan, GM}

Day 2: Based on just votes, I'm willing to call Regfan and CES town. The argument for Lurker-town could also be made. Which leaves:

2 scum in: {Sucrose, Sora, LS, maybe Lurker}
1 scum in: {Guille, GM}

Reg's reads might be right on the money here, because I kinda doubt LS-scum.

Why do you assume that there are two scum on the Levi wagon, or that there would be one scum off the Levi wagon, and likewise for the KBW wagon? You would never know how scum act, and if anything they could be all off or all on the wagon, because people would assume that "oh not all scum would be on the wagon".
If you keep sticking to this argument you would be wrong. So wrong...

[SoraAdvent]

Let's face it: Lurker has already kept this up so many times.

How many times has he added things onto his claims, I don't know. He's definitely lying, and is probably only Hp, because he thinks that no one would lynch a supposed deathproof person.

After reading through the thread again.

[SoraAdvent]

Let's face it: Lurker has already kept this up so many times.

How many times has he added things onto his claims, I don't know. He's definitely lying, and is probably only Hp, because he thinks that no one would lynch a supposed deathproof person.

After reading through the thread again.

Blame my Internet and my brother.

I remember HD saying that a lot of the KBW case depended on Arc being scum. Now that kBW has flipped scum, it's pretty safe to say that GM is town.

I know I'm not scum: think that association between me and Sucrose is pure coincidence.

Posting from an iPad is nuts: will be semi-V/LA this time while regathering thoughts.

[SoraAdvent]

Sucrose is definitely vanilla, according to HD's results.

I remember HD saying that a lot of the KBW case depended on Arc being scum. Now that kBW has flipped town, it's pretty safe to say that GM is town.

Explain the thought process behind this statement.

Misrepped, sorry. I meant to say KBW town.

Arc and KBW were voting weirdly together on HD: now that KBW's flipped, it was just pure coincidence.

[SoraAdvent]

Exeunt, mes amis.

VOTE: Sucrose

[SoraAdvent]

Reg, you have NO IDEA HOW FRICKIN' SCARED I WAS WHEN YOU PEGGED ME AS SCUM.
I thought I was done fore really. I had three options:
1)Fight back and get lynched.
2)Not comment on the stuff and get lynched.
3)Lurk in the shadows, not saying much unless pressed.
I had to do it: I had no choice.

I'm sorry...

[SoraAdvent]

I couldn't find any intent at all in this game. Seriously. Tried to fake my town intent, but it didn't work. Ugh.